Well good morning. It's a bless-
ing to be with you all today
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and I have to tell you just how
grateful I am to be able to be
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here and humbled, actually,
to be part of this symposium.
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I came into California yesterday
and it was beautiful, beautiful
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blue skies, not a cloud in the
sky and I hear you don't have
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clouds here in California, is
that right? No clouds. Fantastic
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It's a bunch of fog at winter
time and I suppose that's ok
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because I come from Michigan and
there's lots of snow out there.
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A whole lot of it. I've got
to head back there. I came in
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yesterday and I'm heading back
today because I'm in the middle
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of a series I'm preaching on the
book of Revelation and so we've
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got guests that are waiting for
us back there and the meetings
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are going really well. We've
already seen the power of the
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three angels' messages just
blow people away. We have a life
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changing message, I'm so thank-
ful for it. Over and over again
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people come and say, Wow
the thing we like is that it's
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wonderful to hear messages that
are straight from the Bible.
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You help us to see the truth
that's right there in the Bible.
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There's one couple that's coming
to our meetings and they told me
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how they had tried going to
this mega church in the area
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but they weren't really getting
anything out of it and by the
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fourth night she had recommitted
her life to Christ and he had
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committed his life to Christ for
the first time he said. And so
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we're just so thankful for
it. Night after night they just
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keep commenting about how
wonderful it is to study the
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Bible. And that's why we're here
isn't it? To study the Bible,
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above all else we want to be
true to the Bible. We want to
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affirm women in their vital work
in ministry, we want to strive
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for unity in the church,
but we know that the best way to
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accomplish these and all of our
other goals, as a church, is to
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be faithful to the Bible, and
all else will be added unto us.
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And with that in mind I'm just
going to ask that you bow your
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heads and I'm going to ask
the Lord's blessing on our time.
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Loving Father in heaven, we're
so grateful for this privilege
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and opportunity to talk about
your church, and we want Lord to
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be faithful to your Word and the
direction we take as a church
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So please Lord give us wisdom
and discernment. We all have
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blind spots and we need your
help. So guide and direct us
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this day we pray,
in Jesus' name. Amen.
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Well the topic that I have
been asked to speak to you about
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today has been
referred to as the third option
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in the discussion surrounding
women's ordination. And surely
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there may be somebody who's
wondering today, what is the
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third option? Well let me give
you the Readers Digest version
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and then we'll get into a little
more detail as we move along.
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In essence there have been
two traditional views in the SDA
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church surrounding the issue
of women's ordination. Those
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who are not in favor of ordain-
ing women to the gospel ministry
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and those who are in favor of
ordaining women to the ministry.
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On the General Conference
Theology of Ordination Committee
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Study Committee on which I had
the privilege of serving, those
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who are not in favor of
ordain- ing women were Group 1.
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Those who were, were Group 2.
That's the boiled down version.
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When we speak of the 3rd option
we're speaking of a 3rd view
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that came out in the
General Conference Theology of
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Ordination Study Committee and
here's how the Adventist Review
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recently summarized the position
of this 3rd view in an article
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posted to their website on Sept.
23, just a couple of weeks ago
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So what we find in this descrip-
tion of the 3rd Group is that
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from a theological standpoint
they see the pattern of male
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leadership in the church and
much the same way as Group No.1
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those who are not in favor of
ordaining women to the Biblical
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office of the elder or minister.
However, they essentially teach
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that while it's God's ideal
for men to be ordained ministers
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it isn't a moral issue. So God
is ok with us straying from that
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ideal. Now before I really dive
into the views and reviewing
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them with Group 3, let me
say that I have a deep respect
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for those who provided this 3rd
option to the Women's Ordination
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discussion. I actually believe
they provided some very valuable
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contributions to the discussions
There are some wonderful and
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very dedicated people who took a
lot of time to put together the
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Group 3 summary and I hope
to be fair to their views as I'm
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making this response. This is
not about us and them. Group 1
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vs. Group 2, vs. Group 3.
Because in this conversation
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brothers and sisters, there
is only US whether we like it
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or not, we're all in this
together. We're grappling, we're
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studying, we're praying for
God's will to be done and as the
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angel frequently would tell
Ellen White, we need to press
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together, press together, press
together. While we never want to
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give up our convictions, we also
don't ever want to give up on
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each other. So whatever
constructive criticism that I
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may have to share today about
someone else's view, its purpose
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is not to separate but to keep
chipping away at truth so we can
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come to it together. Now just
so you know, I don't consider
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myself a definitive authority on
this topic. I know you probably
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came to hear one but I'm
not that. But I've thought quite
00:06:07.70\00:06:11.33
a bit about this third option
and I believe there's a lot
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at stake for the church
if we were to accept it's
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recommendation. So, as we
dive into the review let me just
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point you to some helpful
resources. I wanna make sure you
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know that there is an official
website for the Theology of
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Ordination Study Committee.
It's at AdventistArchives.org.
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and you have to do a little
clicking around but you can get
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to the TOSC as we sometimes
refer to it, Theology of
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Ordination Study Committee
papers. The June papers section
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gives you the summaries of
position 1, 2 and 3. They're
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called summaries but they're
50 pages so go figure. The real
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summaries are called The Way
Forward for Positions 1,2 and 3
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and they're little over a page
each. Now I also want to point
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you to the fact that there's a
section in that website and it's
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called Papers Commissioned
and Submitted but not presented.
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And if you go into that folder,
it has a paper that's entitled
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Group 1 response to Position
Summary No.3. And that's gonna
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go in much more detail than what
I have time to do with you today
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and I hope that you will go and
read that paper. Now I'd like to
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do next is read from Group 3 Way
Forward paper that's their true
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summary paper and read
exactly what they state is their
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viewpoint. And there are 4 key
points that are listed in this
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Way Forward paper and I'd like
to spend a little time on each
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one, but especially on
the 4th or final point.
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So let's get started with
Point No. 1 in the Group 3
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Way Forward Paper.
It reads like this.
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And to this we say, Amen. One
major benefit that has come out
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of this study on the Ordination
of Women is that it has
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highlighted the incredible
need that exists in the church
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for women to be engaged in the
soul winning work of the church.
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Ellen White states in Testimon-
ies to the Church, volume 9, pg
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128 And so yes, we need
to provide encouragement and
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education to those women who
want to dedicate their lives to
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the service of God. And I should
hasten to add that for those
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of us who many not support the
Ordination of Women to the roles
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of Elder or Minister, we should
not for a moment fault our
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sisters who have taken these
responsibilities because they've
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only taken the opportunities
the church has afforded them.
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And we need to remember that God
has used them, they've served
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admirably and we need to be
sensitive to the fact that for
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for some of us while this issue
is very academic, to others
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it is life changing and career
involving. So when it comes
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to providing opportunities
for women to serve in the church
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we agree whole heartedly with
Group 3. Now their second point
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Again we say amen with the
3rd view, with one exception.
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This 2nd point rightly affirms
men as spiritual leaders in the
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home, emphasizing that
that leadership should be loving
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service rather than a
dictatorial bossing around.
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So far, so good. The only
difference I have with this
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statement is that it refers
to the distinct leadership role
00:10:03.16\00:10:05.87
of men in the home as something
that has only been in existence
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since the fall of Adam
and Eve. Now this second point
00:10:09.44\00:10:13.14
is actually in harmony with
Group 2, those who are in favor
00:10:13.17\00:10:17.81
of Women's Ordination. Now I
know we've already had a couple
00:10:17.85\00:10:20.62
of presentations in the
Symposium on this, so I'm not
00:10:20.65\00:10:23.79
gonna spend an inordinate amount
of time on this but I'd like to
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say a few things about this. I
don't fault people who feel that
00:10:26.25\00:10:30.79
the role distinctions between
men and women didn't come until
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after the fall because I
personally know that it can be a
00:10:34.73\00:10:37.00
little confusing when you read
the statements by Ellen White
00:10:37.03\00:10:40.37
particularly. But I personally
do believe that men and women
00:10:40.40\00:10:45.04
were different before the fall.
I think the reason that role
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distinctions existed before
the fall is that men and women
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have always been different.
I don't believe that role
00:10:53.15\00:10:56.38
distinctions were a punishment
but a beautiful symmetry in
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which the sterner virtues of men
and the sweeter graces of women
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were each to be utilized in the
best way possible. Now don't get
00:11:05.46\00:11:10.53
mad at me because I believe
men and women are different.
00:11:10.57\00:11:14.34
Just talk to any relationship
counselor, and of course Ellen
00:11:14.37\00:11:18.17
White concurs. Notice how
she talks about the father.
00:11:18.21\00:11:21.38
Listen closely to this.
00:11:21.41\00:11:22.74
So there you have it.
Ellen White says that the father
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is the lawmaker because of his
manly bearing and sterner virtue
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Now just from a basic reading of
the Bible I always viewed this
00:11:42.50\00:11:46.60
role of the husband and father
as protecting and leading and
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in a self sacrificing way,
guiding his family to have been
00:11:50.31\00:11:54.68
established before the fall. And
my reasons for this Biblically
00:11:54.71\00:11:58.45
were simply that Adam always
seemed to be given the ultimate
00:11:58.48\00:12:01.65
responsibility for the fall
even though Eve sinned first.
00:12:01.68\00:12:05.05
In the first few chapters
of Genesis we discover that God
00:12:05.09\00:12:08.92
created Adam first, a point that
Paul will later reference, when
00:12:08.96\00:12:12.39
he talks about leadership roles
in the church in 1 Timothy 2
00:12:12.43\00:12:15.73
We discover that God came to
Adam first after eating of the
00:12:15.76\00:12:18.97
fruit, even though Eve was
the first to eat it. And, also
00:12:19.00\00:12:24.47
the man is the one referenced
as leaving father and mother
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and being joined to his
wife. Then in the New Testament
00:12:27.71\00:12:30.65
when you go to Romans 5:12, Paul
says that sin entered into the
00:12:30.68\00:12:35.65
world through one man Adam which
would be a strange thing to say
00:12:35.68\00:12:39.72
if Adam didn't have leadership
responsibility in Eden
00:12:39.75\00:12:43.39
since again it was Eve
and not Adam who was the first
00:12:43.43\00:12:46.09
to eat the fruit. Now some argue
from Gen 3:16 in which the woman
00:12:46.13\00:12:51.17
is told that her desire would
be for her husband and he shall
00:12:51.20\00:12:54.97
rule over you that this was
when male leadership role began.
00:12:55.00\00:12:58.94
But it seems to me that
each of the curses in Genesis
00:12:58.97\00:13:03.08
were simply distortions of some
thing that existed before the
00:13:03.11\00:13:07.22
fall. Childbirth already
existed in Eden but after sin
00:13:07.25\00:13:11.95
it would be painful. Tilling the
ground already existed in Eden
00:13:11.99\00:13:16.46
but after sin it would produce
thorns and would have to be
00:13:16.49\00:13:19.69
by the sweat of the brow.
And male servant leadership
00:13:19.73\00:13:23.06
already existed. A distinct
role already existed in Eden
00:13:23.10\00:13:26.90
but now it would be made
difficult by the proud hearts of
00:13:26.94\00:13:29.80
both men and women. Now
having said all this there's one
00:13:29.84\00:13:34.08
statement that I had to wrestle
with by Ellen White I'll read it
00:13:34.11\00:13:38.15
At first that confused me but
after taking time to consider
00:14:04.87\00:14:08.58
this statement I understand that
it is saying that the submission
00:14:08.61\00:14:12.78
taught by Paul in a marriage
relationship was actually
00:14:12.81\00:14:17.12
unnecessary before the fall
in its fullest sense. Because as
00:14:17.15\00:14:22.72
she says if they hadn't sinned
they would ever have been in
00:14:22.76\00:14:26.03
harmony with each other.
She says sin had brought discord
00:14:26.06\00:14:31.80
it is only when there is no
harmony, when discord enters
00:14:31.83\00:14:36.71
that submission the in sense
of surrendering your ideas and
00:14:36.74\00:14:40.41
judgment or your plans becomes
necessary. It isn't that man did
00:14:40.44\00:14:44.95
not have the role as priest or
leader of his home before sin,
00:14:44.98\00:14:49.05
it's just that perfect harmony
between he and Eve before sin
00:14:49.08\00:14:53.59
made the need for submitting
or surrendering when in
00:14:53.62\00:14:56.96
disagreement unnecessary because
they never disagreed! Then
00:14:56.99\00:15:01.46
recently a friend sent me a
statement that to me is one of
00:15:01.50\00:15:04.63
the strongest I've read in
referring to men as spiritual
00:15:04.67\00:15:08.30
leaders of the home, even before
the fall. And this particular
00:15:08.34\00:15:11.71
statement is in the context of
another institution that existed
00:15:11.74\00:15:15.04
before the fall. And that is the
Sabbath. It's in Child Guidance
00:15:15.08\00:15:18.75
Isn't that incredible? It says
it right there. That the Sabbath
00:16:04.86\00:16:09.20
is the time to go back to Eden
and it says that in perfect Eden
00:16:09.23\00:16:14.34
the father was to serve in a
beautiful self-sacrificing sense
00:16:14.37\00:16:18.67
as the priest of his household.
It then goes on to describe how
00:16:18.71\00:16:22.88
in this current life we have
things get so busy that fathers
00:16:22.91\00:16:26.05
get separated and don't spend
enough time with their families
00:16:26.08\00:16:28.35
and Sabbath is a way to
help reconnect the family.
00:16:28.38\00:16:31.95
So in light of all the inspired
evidence, while we appreciate
00:16:31.99\00:16:37.33
the third option's affirmation
of loving, sacrificial male
00:16:37.36\00:16:40.16
leadership in the home, we
would not necessarily agree
00:16:40.20\00:16:43.03
that the role distinctions
between men and women began
00:16:43.06\00:16:46.27
only after the fall. The dynamic
of those role distinctions most
00:16:46.30\00:16:50.81
certainly did change. But the
existence of role differences
00:16:50.84\00:16:54.31
themselves were every bit
as much a part of God's perfect
00:16:54.34\00:16:57.78
plan as the biological diff-
erences that existed between
00:16:57.81\00:17:01.98
men and women from the
beginning. Now the third point
00:17:02.02\00:17:06.72
on the Summary Statement of
the third option states this:
00:17:06.76\00:17:10.43
Again we agree with our friends
in Group 3. Christ is the only
00:17:15.36\00:17:19.77
head of the Church. Of course
we also recognize that God
00:17:19.80\00:17:22.90
appointed spiritual leaders
of His people throughout history
00:17:22.94\00:17:25.77
and we don't want to get so
crazy with our idea of Christ
00:17:25.81\00:17:29.51
being the head of the Church
that we ignore the fact that He
00:17:29.54\00:17:33.55
has appointed spiritual leaders
throughout history making it
00:17:33.58\00:17:36.92
sound like God doesn't do
that and I don't believe the 3rd
00:17:36.95\00:17:39.65
Group is doing that at all
but I have heard some that have
00:17:39.69\00:17:42.02
made that claim. We should
readily acknowledge that priests
00:17:42.06\00:17:45.99
apostles and elders have
all been entrusted by God with a
00:17:46.03\00:17:49.80
certain measure of authority
but this authority is not to be
00:17:49.83\00:17:53.03
abused, not to be something
where we lord over others
00:17:53.07\00:17:56.37
and every human leader among
God's people is duty bound to
00:17:56.40\00:18:00.24
work as an undershepherd
who willingly submits to the
00:18:00.28\00:18:03.98
leadership of the true and
only true shepherd Jesus Christ.
00:18:04.01\00:18:08.08
And I think that Group 3 would
agree with those sentiments.
00:18:08.12\00:18:12.19
So far I can agree with much of
what has been suggested by Group
00:18:13.46\00:18:17.03
3 The foundational difference
however, between Group 3 and the
00:18:17.06\00:18:20.73
other Groups, the other 2 Groups
is in the 4th and last point
00:18:20.76\00:18:24.63
of their Summary Way Forward
document and I'm gonna read that
00:18:24.67\00:18:28.20
So, this 4th point and the
ultimate recommendation of the
00:19:51.95\00:19:55.89
3rd Group that follows blazes
its own trail as it were, and
00:19:55.92\00:20:00.23
it becomes quite different from
either of the other 2 Groups.
00:20:00.26\00:20:03.30
So how should we relate to the
3rd Option? I mean for decades
00:20:03.33\00:20:08.10
the Church has had these two
views. One says that the Bible
00:20:08.14\00:20:11.24
doesn't allow for the ordination
of women ministers and the other
00:20:11.27\00:20:14.08
says that it does. Now what the
3rd Option appears to be saying
00:20:14.11\00:20:18.85
is that it doesn't really matter
all that much what the texts
00:20:18.88\00:20:22.02
have had to say on the topic.
If you read the Position Summary
00:20:22.05\00:20:25.82
for Group3 you will find that
it really doesn't walk through
00:20:25.85\00:20:29.42
the pertinent texts on Women's
Ordination as if to offer new
00:20:29.46\00:20:32.99
insights on those texts. Instead
it says that the Bible does
00:20:33.03\00:20:37.70
teach a male ministry similar
to Group 1 but that it isn't
00:20:37.73\00:20:42.17
mandatory because this
whole thing is just a non-moral
00:20:42.20\00:20:46.94
organizational issue, a
policy issue if you will.
00:20:46.98\00:20:50.71
And their study has led
them to believe that Biblical
00:20:50.75\00:20:53.45
instruction on organizational
matters need not always be
00:20:53.48\00:20:57.09
followed. This is the
central claim of the 3rd Option.
00:20:57.12\00:21:00.46
And I may not have worded
it just right but I think I'm
00:21:00.49\00:21:03.26
pretty close. So let's consider
the claim. There's a lot in this
00:21:03.29\00:21:07.73
claim so bear with me and when
we get to the end, I'm gonna
00:21:07.76\00:21:10.27
toward the end I'm
gonna summarize it for you.
00:21:10.30\00:21:11.80
So what evidence does Group 3
give that Biblical instruction
00:21:11.83\00:21:17.57
is open to adaptation. Well,
several Biblical examples are
00:21:17.61\00:21:21.88
given in the full position
summary on the TOSC website
00:21:21.91\00:21:25.35
to support this point. You won't
find it in the one page summary.
00:21:25.38\00:21:28.88
And the first scriptural support
offered by Group 3 to suggest
00:21:28.92\00:21:32.89
that women maybe ordained is the
example of Israel asking for a
00:21:32.92\00:21:37.26
king. You heard about
that mentioned in the Adventist
00:21:37.29\00:21:39.69
Review article. Now the 3rd
option logic here is that even
00:21:39.73\00:21:44.30
though it wasn't God's will
for Israel to have a king He did
00:21:44.33\00:21:48.60
allow it. And they conclude
that the reason He allowed it
00:21:48.64\00:21:51.84
was only because it was an
organizational issue and not a
00:21:51.87\00:21:55.34
moral one, like for instance
the 10 Commandments would be.
00:21:55.38\00:21:58.55
So why wouldn't God's allowance
of a king give us permission to
00:21:58.58\00:22:02.72
ordain women. Well, first of
all I think there's a difference
00:22:02.75\00:22:06.86
between civil leaders such as
judges and kings and religious
00:22:06.89\00:22:11.29
leaders such as priests,
apostles, elders and ministers.
00:22:11.33\00:22:15.06
A point that I also think bears
consideration in one of their
00:22:15.10\00:22:18.03
other examples that of Deborah.
Because civil leaders such as
00:22:18.07\00:22:22.04
judges and kings do not
appear to be equivalent to the
00:22:22.07\00:22:24.77
spiritual leadership role
of priest, apostle and elder.
00:22:24.81\00:22:27.14
Now secondly in 1 Samuel 12:19
the Israelites finally admit
00:22:27.18\00:22:34.55
something about their decision
to ask for a king. The Bible
00:22:34.58\00:22:37.95
says, 'we have added to all our
sins the evil of asking a king
00:22:37.99\00:22:42.99
for ourselves' so the Israelites
admitted that they were sinning
00:22:43.02\00:22:47.63
and doing an evil thing when
they asked for a king. Is this
00:22:47.66\00:22:51.30
really a model that we want
to follow? Third, the results of
00:22:51.33\00:22:56.04
asking for a king were disast-
rous. A permanent division that
00:22:56.07\00:23:00.74
occurred in Israel, the destruc-
tion of the Northern Kingdom
00:23:00.78\00:23:04.01
the loss of the 10 tribes and
throughout there was apostasy.
00:23:04.05\00:23:07.85
So I just struggle to see why
we would ever want to use this
00:23:07.88\00:23:11.59
example to support doing some
thing other than God's ideal
00:23:11.62\00:23:17.33
will even if He did allow us
to do it. Though God gave a king
00:23:17.36\00:23:21.63
to Israel He did not protect
them from its inevitable tragic
00:23:21.66\00:23:25.80
results and He many not protect
us either should we choose to
00:23:25.83\00:23:30.07
vary from His plan. If anything
this example teaches us that
00:23:30.11\00:23:34.51
instead of looking for
permission to modify God's will
00:23:34.54\00:23:37.81
we should seek His blessing
by carefully obeying it.
00:23:37.85\00:23:42.78
But more a point here is this
question. Does God's allowance
00:23:42.82\00:23:48.02
of a king contrary to His
ideal for Israel give license or
00:23:48.06\00:23:52.13
permission to the present day
Church to establish practices
00:23:52.16\00:23:55.93
that are contrary to the teach-
ings of Scripture? What if this
00:23:55.96\00:24:00.37
logic re-used, trying to use
it in a different framework here
00:24:00.40\00:24:06.64
with polygamy or divorce being
allowed in Old Testament times?
00:24:06.68\00:24:12.45
Would we not then have
to conclude that because God
00:24:12.48\00:24:15.58
allowed polygamy even blessing
David and Solomon in spite of it
00:24:15.62\00:24:20.06
That this gives permission to
the church to deviate from even
00:24:20.09\00:24:24.19
God's moral law today? It's
simply not all that you need.
00:24:24.23\00:24:29.46
Examples like this are not all
that you need in order to draw
00:24:29.50\00:24:32.53
conclusions such as what's
being drawn. I don't believe.
00:24:32.57\00:24:35.27
I'm concerned about where
this method would take us.
00:24:35.30\00:24:38.74
But there's an important
distinction in this story that I
00:24:38.77\00:24:41.41
don't really notice Group
3 mentioning in their paper.
00:24:41.44\00:24:45.51
In 1 Samuel 8:6-7, the Bible
gives this account of the story
00:24:45.55\00:24:50.42
And I'm gonna be reading a
few texts to you and we will
00:24:50.45\00:24:53.05
I'm gonna have you open
your Bible a little bit later
00:24:53.09\00:24:54.92
but I've got a time constraint
they told me. So I'm trying to
00:24:54.96\00:24:57.93
give it to you straight from my
notes. Now this is 1 Sam 8:6-7
00:24:57.96\00:25:02.06
Notice here that Israel here
did not receive a king until
00:25:21.65\00:25:26.15
God Himself allowed it in
response to the prayer of Samuel
00:25:26.19\00:25:30.56
the prophet. God didn't
really leave it up to the people
00:25:30.59\00:25:34.30
And here I think is an important
distinction. If in His wisdom
00:25:34.33\00:25:39.57
God allows a variation from His
revealed will, perhaps in this
00:25:39.60\00:25:44.74
case in order for them to
see the folly of this course
00:25:44.77\00:25:47.24
this is His prerogative. But it
doesn't give permission to the
00:25:47.28\00:25:52.11
Church to make variations
to other Biblical instructions.
00:25:52.15\00:25:55.42
to move ahead with a practice
for which there is no scriptural
00:25:55.45\00:25:59.49
basis or prophetic guidance.
Merely because God himself
00:25:59.52\00:26:03.76
has chosen, in rare instances,
to allow variations from His
00:26:03.79\00:26:07.26
will would be for the church to
take a prerogative that belongs
00:26:07.30\00:26:10.93
only to God. We can't say what
God calls an exception, only God
00:26:10.97\00:26:16.74
can say what God calls an
exception and only He knows why.
00:26:16.77\00:26:20.24
If we start taking that
prerogative upon ourselves
00:26:20.28\00:26:24.55
it seems to me that it can
only lead to Church councils
00:26:24.58\00:26:28.32
having authority over Scripture.
And I just don't think we want
00:26:28.35\00:26:32.12
to go down that road. Now the
3rd option summary paper gives
00:26:32.15\00:26:36.73
several other examples besides
that of king being allowed to
00:26:36.76\00:26:39.96
Israel. It explores the except-
ion made for the daughters of
00:26:40.00\00:26:43.77
Zelophehad to receive an
inheritance, the story of David
00:26:43.80\00:26:46.94
eating the shewbread, the
example of Boaz marrying Ruth
00:26:46.97\00:26:50.14
even though she was of Moabite
heritage. And we deal with these
00:26:50.17\00:26:53.94
and few other specific examples
in the appendix of the paper
00:26:53.98\00:26:58.01
I told you about earlier. It's
the Group 1 response to Position
00:26:58.05\00:27:01.92
Summary No. 3 and you can down
load that off the TOSC website.
00:27:01.95\00:27:07.16
But rather than go into each
example right here, allow me
00:27:07.19\00:27:11.39
to just say that my primary
concern is not so much with the
00:27:11.43\00:27:16.83
individual examples themselves
but with what seems to be an
00:27:16.87\00:27:20.84
unwarranted conclusion drawn
from them that the church may
00:27:20.87\00:27:24.14
now adapt or disregard Biblical
instruction without clear
00:27:24.17\00:27:27.04
direction from God and
without prophetic guidance.
00:27:27.08\00:27:29.88
And the Biblical foundation
that serves as a premise for the
00:27:29.91\00:27:34.78
3rd Option appears to be almost
if not entirely based upon
00:27:34.82\00:27:39.32
inferences from these Biblical
stories. Now certainly Biblical
00:27:39.35\00:27:45.69
examples, they help us.
They help us to understand and
00:27:45.73\00:27:48.03
shed light on God's will
but they can also be interpreted
00:27:48.06\00:27:51.73
in many different ways and
if we're going to draw a strong
00:27:51.77\00:27:55.30
conclusion from them such as the
conclusion being drawn by the
00:27:55.34\00:27:58.84
3rd Option, that we have
authority to act contrary to
00:27:58.87\00:28:01.64
God's will in organizational
matters we probably ought to
00:28:01.68\00:28:05.55
have some clear, inspired
permission to go along with that
00:28:05.58\00:28:09.52
conclusion. And this is what
I believe the 3rd Option lacks.
00:28:09.55\00:28:14.59
What Group 3 appears to do
and I think this is important
00:28:14.62\00:28:17.46
is to first make a risky assump-
tion that the reason God made
00:28:17.49\00:28:23.87
exceptions in specific cases
cited in their paper was because
00:28:23.90\00:28:27.80
of the nature of the instruction
because it was non-moral or
00:28:27.84\00:28:32.77
ritual or ceremonial or organi-
zational or legal, to use the
00:28:32.81\00:28:37.65
different words that they use
in their paper. Then, it appears
00:28:37.68\00:28:42.55
that a second risky assumption
is made. And that is, that if
00:28:42.58\00:28:46.86
God made exceptions due to the
nature of the instruction being
00:28:46.89\00:28:51.03
non-moral or ritual or ceremon-
ial, or organizational or legal
00:28:51.06\00:28:54.00
that was their first assumption,
then the 3rd option concludes
00:28:54.03\00:28:57.80
that any command that fits
into this large, loose category
00:28:57.83\00:29:02.00
is then open to adaption by the
church. Let me try to explain
00:29:02.04\00:29:07.51
what I believe the 3rd view
is doing by comparing it to some
00:29:07.54\00:29:09.94
inspired counsel that does come
with a measure of flexibility.
00:29:09.98\00:29:13.72
When inspired counsel is open to
adaptation, or just put easier
00:29:13.75\00:29:19.69
is not mandatory, common sense
can generally deduce it from the
00:29:19.72\00:29:24.39
language of the inspired
instruction itself. For instance
00:29:24.43\00:29:28.26
to give some clear examples,
we have Paul giving counsel in
00:29:28.30\00:29:31.67
1 Corinthian 7:26-28 to stay
single. You may have read that
00:29:31.70\00:29:37.64
before. But in the same passage
he says 'but even if you do
00:29:37.67\00:29:41.78
marry you have not sinned.' So
Paul suggested that it could be
00:29:41.81\00:29:44.78
beneficial to remain
single. That's inspired counsel.
00:29:44.81\00:29:47.35
But he also, in that inspired
counsel, certainly did not make
00:29:47.38\00:29:51.25
it mandatory and my wife
and I are very glad about that.
00:29:51.29\00:29:54.36
But notice that Paul included
flexibility right in the text.
00:29:54.39\00:30:00.40
Right in the text. Another
ex- ample is in Ellen White's
00:30:00.43\00:30:03.87
inspired counsel on
diet. Listen to this from
00:30:03.90\00:30:07.67
Selected
Messages, book 3, pg. 287.
00:30:07.70\00:30:10.71
Now notice in this counsel that
you have some items that were
00:30:39.03\00:30:42.90
to be discarded, right?
And others that could be taken
00:30:42.94\00:30:46.64
moderately as the Christian
grows in their experience.
00:30:46.68\00:30:49.28
In the nature of each is clearly
conveyed in the language of the
00:30:49.31\00:30:53.78
inspired instruction itself.
Notice also now stay with me
00:30:53.82\00:30:57.69
here, thinking caps are on,
that within the same category of
00:30:57.72\00:31:01.56
instruction, in this case diet
instruction, some aspects maybe
00:31:01.59\00:31:06.06
flexible such as meat and eggs
or what have you. Clean meats
00:31:06.09\00:31:10.20
of course while others
are clearly mandatory. Tobacco
00:31:10.23\00:31:13.94
coffee, tea to be discarded.
How do we know which is which?
00:31:13.97\00:31:19.71
Not by the category of instruct-
ion because they're all part of
00:31:19.74\00:31:25.31
dietary instruction but by
the language of the instruction
00:31:25.35\00:31:29.05
itself. It could turn out
drastically wrong for us to
00:31:29.08\00:31:32.75
assume that every aspect of an
entire category of a instruction
00:31:32.79\00:31:36.79
is somehow to be treated the
same way. For instance, while
00:31:36.83\00:31:43.70
eggs and pork are both part of
dietary instruction, we should
00:31:43.73\00:31:47.84
be careful not to assume
that just because giving up eggs
00:31:47.87\00:31:50.71
is not mandatory that giving
up pork isn't either. Right?
00:31:50.74\00:31:55.28
You must look at the instruction
itself to discover whether its
00:31:55.31\00:32:00.12
mandatory or not. But I believe
that this is precisely what
00:32:00.15\00:32:04.35
I'm afraid the third option
is doing. When they first lumped
00:32:04.39\00:32:09.52
the gender instruction of the
office of the elder or minister
00:32:09.56\00:32:12.63
into a loosely defined category
of all non-moral, organizational
00:32:12.66\00:32:17.63
ritual, ceremonial, legal
practices, precepts and ideals
00:32:17.67\00:32:21.77
and then second, conclude
that this entire category of
00:32:21.80\00:32:25.37
instruction is flexible
even though much of it including
00:32:25.41\00:32:29.08
gender requirement that
Paul gave to Timothy and Titus
00:32:29.11\00:32:32.11
indicates no flexibility at all.
The point here is that we should
00:32:32.15\00:32:36.92
never assume flexibility to
Biblical commands. It should be
00:32:36.95\00:32:40.79
clearly stated or we could
end up presuming to do things
00:32:40.82\00:32:44.99
that could be disastrous
for the church. And to try and
00:32:45.03\00:32:49.96
express this point a bit further
we actually have other Biblical
00:32:50.00\00:32:53.40
examples that seem to contradict
the conclusion drawn from the
00:32:53.44\00:32:57.64
examples that were used in the
3rd option summary. For instance
00:32:57.67\00:33:01.54
these are examples of those who
assumed that what appeared to be
00:33:01.58\00:33:06.92
a non-moral command did not turn
out to be flexible after all
00:33:06.95\00:33:11.49
For instance, Adam and Eve
were punished for eating a piece
00:33:11.52\00:33:15.36
of fruit. An act that certainly
isn't absolute, isn't wrong in
00:33:15.39\00:33:19.06
every circumstance. That's in
Genesis 3. Cain's offering was
00:33:19.09\00:33:23.40
rejected due to a slight modifi-
cation in Genesis 4. And Uzzah
00:33:23.43\00:33:27.40
was punished for merely
steadying the ark in 2 Samuel 6
00:33:27.44\00:33:30.84
Both of these were transgression
of ritual commands that may have
00:33:30.87\00:33:35.94
appeared open to adaptation.
The sons of Aaron were punished
00:33:35.98\00:33:39.48
for offering a different
fire from that which they were
00:33:39.51\00:33:41.52
instructed to use in the
sanctuary. Again what could be
00:33:41.55\00:33:44.15
considered a ritual, non-moral
command. The last thing we want
00:33:44.19\00:33:47.76
to do as a church is to assume
from these exceptions that God
00:33:47.79\00:33:51.76
has allowed in rare instances,
in the past, that are given
00:33:51.79\00:33:57.43
in the 3rd option paper to
somehow conclude from these rare
00:33:57.47\00:34:00.64
instances that God will now
allow exceptions to Biblical
00:34:00.67\00:34:03.77
instructions ourselves
today. Perhaps the most relevant
00:34:03.81\00:34:07.28
example of all that's not
mentioned in the 3rd option
00:34:07.31\00:34:10.18
proposal is that of
Korah, Dathan and Abiram.
00:34:10.21\00:34:13.31
Demanding that Aaron and
his descendants not be the only
00:34:13.35\00:34:16.72
ones to serve as priests.
The Bible says in Numbers 16:2-3
00:34:16.75\00:34:22.32
Notice that the requested adapt-
ation here is an organizational
00:34:44.11\00:34:49.48
one. That's really all it is.
It does not appear to be a moral
00:34:49.52\00:34:53.79
issue. Korah and his company
appeared to be fighting against
00:34:53.82\00:34:57.33
favoritism, and appealing
for equality in the congregation
00:34:57.36\00:35:00.70
for all the congregation is holy
And then listen to what it says
00:35:00.73\00:35:04.33
in verses 13 and 14, very
interesting. Is it a small thing
00:35:04.37\00:35:08.40
that you have brought us up out
of the land flowing with milk
00:35:08.44\00:35:10.44
and honey to kill us in the
wilderness? That you should keep
00:35:10.47\00:35:13.31
acting like a prince over us?
Moreover you have not brought us
00:35:13.34\00:35:16.71
into a land flowing with
milk and honey or given us
00:35:16.75\00:35:19.35
inheritance of fields and vine-
yards. Moses your plan isn't
00:35:19.38\00:35:23.59
forwarding the mission. It's
not getting it done. And the
00:35:23.62\00:35:27.49
vast majority of people, who
do they agree with? They agreed
00:35:27.52\00:35:31.53
with Korah and his friends which
mean it could easily have been
00:35:31.56\00:35:34.66
argued that in order to preserve
unity we're gonna have to make
00:35:34.70\00:35:38.33
an adaptation here. But while
the story seems to fit the 3rd
00:35:38.37\00:35:42.57
option's criteria for an accept-
able adaptation it obviously was
00:35:42.60\00:35:45.67
not accepted. So I think we need
to be careful what we conclude
00:35:45.71\00:35:51.11
from a few isolated examples
when we have no clear inspired
00:35:51.15\00:35:55.18
permission to change direction.
And I think we need to ask some
00:35:55.22\00:35:59.22
hard questions about the found-
ational claim of this 3rd option
00:35:59.25\00:36:03.83
Do Church Councils really have
the authority to stray from what
00:36:03.86\00:36:08.83
the 3rd option refers to as
God's preferred will? And even
00:36:08.86\00:36:13.34
if God did make exceptions would
that give the Church authority
00:36:13.37\00:36:17.77
to do so? Would we not
then risk placing ultimately
00:36:17.81\00:36:23.24
tradition or church decrees
above Scripture? Further, how
00:36:23.28\00:36:28.12
safe is the distinction between
moral commands and organization
00:36:28.15\00:36:33.89
ideals? I'm not so sure that
Biblical commands fit so neatly
00:36:33.92\00:36:38.63
into these categories. What
about tithing? The ordinances?
00:36:38.66\00:36:43.90
Lifestyle teachings. Would
we consider these moral and
00:36:43.93\00:36:49.00
unchangeable or open to adapt-
ation? I really don't know.
00:36:49.04\00:36:52.84
But based on the guidance
given by the Group 3 summary,
00:36:52.87\00:36:57.18
I don't know exactly how they
would feel about it. I suspect
00:36:57.21\00:37:01.78
that they would not want to
make that claim but just based
00:37:01.82\00:37:04.72
on the guidelines I can't see
it Would we wanna say that 5% is
00:37:04.75\00:37:10.43
good enough for tithe. Or
perhaps state that drinking
00:37:10.46\00:37:14.90
alcohol is ok in moderation.
The truth is that the church has
00:37:14.93\00:37:19.30
been faced with continually
increasing pressures over the
00:37:19.33\00:37:22.87
last few decades to lower its
stance on many Biblical teaching
00:37:22.90\00:37:27.34
that are considered non
salvation issues. But who are we
00:37:27.38\00:37:32.91
really to make this claim?
Is this not a slippery slope?
00:37:32.95\00:37:37.75
Jesus said while some issues
are weightier than others these
00:37:37.79\00:37:43.86
you ought to have done and
not left the others undone.
00:37:43.89\00:37:47.46
The attitude of the Christians
should never be how little can I
00:37:47.50\00:37:51.57
do and still make it to heaven?
But because I love Jesus can I
00:37:51.60\00:37:56.67
know more and more closely
follow His will. In other words
00:37:56.71\00:38:01.61
the question for us to ask
is not 'Is it salvific?' Is it a
00:38:01.64\00:38:05.35
salvation issue, but is it the
will of God? Now at this point
00:38:05.38\00:38:12.55
I'd like us to take our physical
Bibles and I'd like to look at
00:38:12.59\00:38:17.49
the primary passage related
to women serving as elders or
00:38:17.53\00:38:20.73
ministers and see for ourselves
whether there's any flexibility
00:38:20.76\00:38:23.57
in the passage itself. So
take your Bible and turn with me
00:38:23.60\00:38:26.60
to 1 Timothy chapter
2, 1 Timothy Chapter 2
00:38:26.63\00:38:31.14
Now, in 1 Timothy
chapter 2 we see the challenging
00:38:34.94\00:38:42.75
passage beginning in verse 11.
00:38:42.78\00:38:46.05
Now there are some who claim
that because Paul says I do not
00:39:14.78\00:39:20.69
permit a woman to teach here and
we as a church most certainly do
00:39:20.72\00:39:24.19
allow women to teach that we are
already adapting non-essential
00:39:24.23\00:39:28.96
Biblical commands. But I think
the mistaken approach to this
00:39:29.00\00:39:34.67
is that the Bible does not
prohibit women from all teaching
00:39:34.70\00:39:38.17
SDA's do take a literal reading
of the Bible but we do not take
00:39:38.21\00:39:43.18
surface reading of the Bible.
In other words, we don't simply
00:39:43.21\00:39:46.68
read a text and draw a conclu-
sion without first reading all
00:39:46.72\00:39:49.88
the inspired evidence on the
same topic in the Bible and the
00:39:49.92\00:39:52.85
Spirit of Prophecy. Then we
let common sense and a reading
00:39:52.89\00:39:56.02
of those texts inform us, of
course we take in the cultural
00:39:56.06\00:39:59.43
and historical applications but
the Word and the plain reading
00:39:59.46\00:40:02.56
of the Word is foremost and
prominent. In this particular
00:40:02.60\00:40:06.40
passage just some basic logic
immediately tells us that Paul
00:40:06.43\00:40:10.91
is not saying that women can't
teach at all. The reason is
00:40:10.94\00:40:13.88
because we already know
that Paul tells the older women
00:40:13.91\00:40:17.95
to teach the younger women
in Titus, chapter 2. So we know
00:40:17.98\00:40:22.55
that he's not prohibiting
all teaching, just like that.
00:40:22.58\00:40:24.82
Secondly we know that it says
in Acts 18 that there was some
00:40:24.85\00:40:29.69
teaching going on between Aquila
and Priscilla and Apollo's.
00:40:29.72\00:40:32.89
So we know that there was some
teaching going on in the church.
00:40:32.93\00:40:35.56
We know that it also says that
women were told that they could
00:40:35.60\00:40:38.20
prophesy in the church. Ellen
White concurs too. She urged
00:40:38.23\00:40:43.20
one female speaker that was
very gifted, address the crowd
00:40:43.24\00:40:46.91
whenever you can. So Paul
could not have been prohibiting
00:40:46.94\00:40:51.41
all teaching. In saying I do
not permit a woman to teach or
00:40:51.45\00:40:57.19
to have authority over a
man, Paul links the prohibited
00:40:57.22\00:41:01.12
teaching with having authority
over a man. And a few verses
00:41:01.16\00:41:07.66
later he actually identifies, I
believe, the authority of which
00:41:07.70\00:41:11.77
he speaks because as you
continue reading you come into
00:41:11.80\00:41:15.70
chapter 3, the very next thing
that he talks about happens to
00:41:15.74\00:41:20.14
be the qualifications of an
elder which is a church office
00:41:20.18\00:41:24.21
that receives delegated
authority in a church by
00:41:24.25\00:41:27.75
election or appointment and
is recognized by ordination.
00:41:27.78\00:41:31.05
So he's talking about authority
and then he goes into the office
00:41:31.09\00:41:34.76
that is delegated authority.
And he says in chapter 3:1
00:41:34.79\00:41:39.09
Here's the qualification given
for elder. Now notice that Paul
00:42:13.19\00:42:19.20
specifies in these qualifica-
tions that an elder must be
00:42:19.23\00:42:22.54
able to do what? to teach.
So in the context of what we see
00:42:22.57\00:42:27.88
the prohibition given to women
not to teach or have authority
00:42:27.91\00:42:31.78
over a man is in the context
referring not to teaching in any
00:42:31.81\00:42:37.59
place but to teaching in a
position of official church
00:42:37.62\00:42:42.19
authority that is occupied
by the elder or minister
00:42:42.22\00:42:44.83
and recognized by ordination.
We don't need to think
00:42:44.86\00:42:49.26
that we've been adapting
Biblical instruction when women
00:42:49.30\00:42:52.97
are encouraged to teach and
preach. When we take all the
00:42:53.00\00:42:56.60
inspired evidence you'll find
that they may do so as long as
00:42:56.64\00:42:59.44
they're not usurping the
authority that belongs to the
00:42:59.47\00:43:01.64
ordained elder or minister.
And this humble, non-disruptive
00:43:01.68\00:43:05.71
attitude toward authority in
the church is described in the
00:43:05.75\00:43:08.75
text as learning in quietness,
and what's fascinating about
00:43:08.78\00:43:12.22
this is if you look in 1 Tim 2
which, I closed my Bible, so you
00:43:12.25\00:43:16.06
have and I don't, but if you
look in verse 12 where it speaks
00:43:16.09\00:43:19.13
about silence in verse 11,
that Greek word is the noun form
00:43:19.16\00:43:25.73
of what is in adjective form
seen up in verse 2 where it says
00:43:25.77\00:43:32.24
For kings and all who are
in authority that we may lead a
00:43:32.27\00:43:35.81
quiet and peaceable life.
That adjective form is called
00:43:35.84\00:43:40.75
peaceable in respect to kings
and authority, its simply talkin
00:43:40.78\00:43:45.52
about not being disruptive of
authority and in this case its
00:43:45.55\00:43:50.06
talking about church delegated
authority and in the context
00:43:50.09\00:43:54.60
that happens to refer to
the elder or minister. Now the
00:43:54.63\00:43:58.80
external evidence seems to
be along the same lines as this
00:43:58.83\00:44:02.17
We don't have a single
clear example of a female priest
00:44:02.20\00:44:07.04
apostle or elder in the Bible
and I believe its important
00:44:07.08\00:44:10.81
I really do. I have a friend
who's been trying to not only
00:44:10.85\00:44:15.65
convince me Biblically about the
concept of women being ordained
00:44:15.68\00:44:19.49
to the gospel ministry which
I'm very open to the discussion
00:44:19.52\00:44:21.96
we've had some good conversa-
tion, it's been very helpful
00:44:21.99\00:44:24.83
but he's also been trying
to convince me about monogamous
00:44:24.86\00:44:28.06
homosexual practice
being Biblically allowable. And
00:44:28.10\00:44:32.53
he just has some different
interpretations of Leviticus 18
00:44:32.57\00:44:35.97
Leviticus 20 and Romans 1
just to name a few. But what I
00:44:36.00\00:44:40.21
encouraged him to do, the
hurdle I was struggling with
00:44:40.24\00:44:43.51
outside of just the texts
themselves was I encouraged him
00:44:43.55\00:44:47.48
to consider if his interpret-
ation is correct we should have
00:44:47.52\00:44:53.66
evidence of an approved
same sex relationship somewhere
00:44:53.69\00:44:58.49
in the Bible or Spirit of Pro-
phecy. At least one affirmation
00:44:58.53\00:45:02.63
of a same sex couple. I
mean if the Bible never even was
00:45:02.66\00:45:06.03
speaking negatively about
that monogamous relationship
00:45:06.07\00:45:08.17
then where are those
approved relationships? You see
00:45:08.20\00:45:12.54
ultimately we can say that just
because there were male priests
00:45:12.57\00:45:18.21
male apostles, male elders that
settles the deal. But it sure
00:45:18.25\00:45:21.55
helps to give support when we
read the passage in 1 Timothy 2
00:45:21.58\00:45:26.99
and in Titus and we begin to
piece it together it fits the
00:45:27.02\00:45:30.99
interpretation, and that I
do believe is important. Now
00:45:31.03\00:45:35.03
Group 3 interprets this passage
in 1 Timothy 2 similarly. This
00:45:35.06\00:45:40.87
is why they referred to the
male ordained ministry as God's
00:45:40.90\00:45:43.84
preference and they recognized
the consistent pattern of male
00:45:43.87\00:45:47.51
spiritual leadership in Church.
But they make a couple of
00:45:47.54\00:45:50.21
assertions that I'd like to
take a few moments to consider.
00:45:50.25\00:45:54.38
One is that they believe
that the local elder that exists
00:45:54.42\00:45:59.99
today in the church is equi-
valent to a Biblical deacon
00:46:00.02\00:46:02.72
and so that this does not
relate to that at all. Now,
00:46:02.76\00:46:06.83
as far as I can tell from the
Bible there is no real Biblical
00:46:06.86\00:46:09.66
distinction made between
the local elder and the minister
00:46:09.70\00:46:12.87
in terms of qualifications.
The role of the elder and the
00:46:12.90\00:46:16.10
qualifications for that
seemed to be one and the same.
00:46:16.14\00:46:19.24
And I don't believe that the
local elder can be considered
00:46:19.27\00:46:23.01
the same as our current
local deacon for these reasons.
00:46:23.04\00:46:26.15
No.1 if the local elder is
equi- valent to today's deacon
00:46:26.18\00:46:30.09
then today's deacon serves
no unique purpose that was
00:46:30.12\00:46:34.36
apparently Biblically designated
No.2, the truth is the local
00:46:34.39\00:46:39.33
elders unlike deacons often do
fulfill the role as pastor for
00:46:39.36\00:46:43.47
their congregation when their
pastor is gone or in some places
00:46:43.50\00:46:46.94
in the world where there is
one pastor for many churches
00:46:46.97\00:46:49.70
its a far different role between
those local elders and the role
00:46:49.74\00:46:53.71
of the local deacon. And
No.3 rather than being satisfied
00:46:53.74\00:46:57.55
with pastors who hover over the
churches in a diminished role
00:46:57.58\00:47:02.68
of local elders shouldn't we
just return to the Biblical role
00:47:02.72\00:47:06.52
and the Biblical duty of
the minister, elder and deacon?
00:47:06.55\00:47:10.23
Now second point that is raised
in this passage that I'd like to
00:47:10.26\00:47:14.40
address from the 3rd option
is that gender is just one
00:47:14.43\00:47:17.87
characteristic among many in the
passage and should not be there
00:47:17.90\00:47:21.27
for considered absolute. The
idea here is we don't nominate
00:47:21.30\00:47:25.07
perfect elders in all the
other areas, they might not be
00:47:25.11\00:47:27.98
all the most hospitable, they
might not always be the most
00:47:28.01\00:47:30.61
temperate and for these reasons
we shouldn't look at gender
00:47:30.65\00:47:34.18
qualification any differently.
Here's what I would say to this
00:47:34.22\00:47:37.72
No.1 if you look at the
text gender is not really a
00:47:37.75\00:47:40.19
qualification. Being the husband
of one wife is a qualification
00:47:40.22\00:47:44.36
being one who rules his
own house well which would seem
00:47:44.39\00:47:48.53
to be talking about the priest
of the home is a qualification
00:47:48.56\00:47:51.40
but being a male is prerequisite
to being a husband or to being a
00:47:51.43\00:47:55.90
priest of the home. And gender
also is not measured in degrees
00:47:55.94\00:48:01.08
like you see with other
types of things. Gender is very
00:48:01.11\00:48:05.51
unambiguous. It's very clear.
Where prohibitions are measured
00:48:05.55\00:48:09.48
in degrees we have to give room
for the individual conscience.
00:48:09.52\00:48:13.12
But where the prohibition is
unambiguous we should draw the
00:48:13.15\00:48:16.12
line in the same place the
Scripture does. We don't really
00:48:16.16\00:48:18.43
have the authority to do other-
wise. And third, being male
00:48:18.46\00:48:21.96
is not only necessary to meet
the qualifications of a husband
00:48:22.00\00:48:26.03
but also to harmonize with
the prohibition against women
00:48:26.07\00:48:29.84
having authority over men
that was given in the previous
00:48:29.87\00:48:32.17
chapter, that's the whole
connection in the passage.
00:48:32.21\00:48:36.08
Now lastly I just want to
point out that the gender aspect
00:48:36.11\00:48:40.08
to this instruction is not
adaptable. When you look in the
00:48:40.12\00:48:44.45
text Paul says I do not permit
a woman. In the context it's not
00:48:44.49\00:48:50.49
like Ellen White, this is you
know, moderation or like Paul
00:48:50.53\00:48:56.46
if you do this you do not sin.
Nothing within the text itself
00:48:56.50\00:48:59.63
that tells us that somehow
we can be flexible with it.
00:48:59.67\00:49:03.10
It's not mandatory. Paul says
I do not permit a woman to teach
00:49:03.14\00:49:05.91
or have authority over man.
The elder must be the husband of
00:49:05.94\00:49:10.88
one wife. So these reasons in
addition to the fact that Paul
00:49:10.91\00:49:16.12
grounds his statement in the
fact that Adam was formed first
00:49:16.15\00:49:19.29
and then Eve points us back to
the distinct roles between men
00:49:19.32\00:49:23.36
and women as the real heart
of what Paul is talking about.
00:49:23.39\00:49:26.86
So let me summarize my concerns
here about the Biblical rational
00:49:26.90\00:49:31.17
provided by Group 3 for adapting
the Biblical instruction on the
00:49:31.20\00:49:35.50
gender of elders and ministers.
No.1 I'm concerned that its
00:49:35.54\00:49:41.14
based on inferences drawn
from descriptive Bible stories
00:49:41.18\00:49:45.75
rather than having clear
permission in the language of
00:49:45.78\00:49:48.68
the text itself. No. 2 it sugg-
ests that isolated exceptions
00:49:48.72\00:49:53.25
allowed by God in ancient times
and under extreme circumstances
00:49:53.29\00:49:57.29
are enough to give a broad scale
allowance to a non-Biblical
00:49:57.33\00:50:01.80
practice in his last day
church under what amounts to any
00:50:01.83\00:50:05.90
circumstance since they leave it
up to any region of the church
00:50:05.93\00:50:09.17
to essentially decide for them-
selves. Third, it confuses what
00:50:09.20\00:50:12.74
God allows in His mercy
with what He actually endorses
00:50:12.77\00:50:16.31
with His blessing. Fourth,
it draws conclusions from Bible
00:50:16.34\00:50:20.35
stories that are actually
unrelated, or at least far
00:50:20.38\00:50:24.29
removed from the issue of
women's ordination. Fifth, it
00:50:24.32\00:50:28.76
does not carefully consider
key Biblical examples that could
00:50:28.79\00:50:32.39
actually contradict its
conclusions, such as this story
00:50:32.43\00:50:35.73
of Korah's requested adaptation
of the priesthood. Sixth, it
00:50:35.76\00:50:39.67
does not apply its logic, I
don't believe in every case,
00:50:39.70\00:50:42.64
such as in God's allowance of
polygamy and divorce. Seventh,
00:50:42.67\00:50:47.24
it places church councils in a
position of authority over God's
00:50:47.28\00:50:50.91
word. And lastly it regards
Biblical instruction as flexible
00:50:50.95\00:50:55.48
when the inspired instruction
itself has given no such
00:50:55.52\00:51:00.26
indication. So now we've looked
at the foundational claims I
00:51:00.29\00:51:03.73
just wanna take the last
few minutes to review its
00:51:03.76\00:51:06.80
recommendation. I'm gonna read
the recommenda- tion of the 3rd
00:51:06.83\00:51:09.23
Option once more In light
of the priority of mission, the
00:51:09.26\00:51:12.83
importance of church unity
and the principles of Christian
00:51:12.87\00:51:15.50
liberty, we recommend that
denominational leadership at a
00:51:15.54\00:51:18.71
proper level be be authorized to
decide based on Biblical
principles whether such
00:51:18.74\00:51:22.44
an adaptation maybe appropriate
for their area or region.
00:51:22.48\00:51:25.51
Now the recommendation also
high lights here the priority of
00:51:25.55\00:51:30.39
mission. The priority of mission
and I'd like to talk about that
00:51:30.42\00:51:34.69
for a moment giving that as a
reason for why we should allow
00:51:34.72\00:51:37.73
for the ordination of
women. I guess I'm not convinced
00:51:37.76\00:51:41.30
or I really don't understand
what's being suggested here.
00:51:41.33\00:51:45.60
Is it necessary for someone to
be ordained in order to forward
00:51:45.63\00:51:49.94
the mission? This is something
that has been a question in mind
00:51:49.97\00:51:53.38
from both Group2 and
Group3 since my time on the TOSC
00:51:53.41\00:51:57.18
I mean I understand the thinking
of those who are looking for
00:51:57.21\00:52:01.58
equal recognition,
that's another issue entirely.
00:52:01.62\00:52:04.19
But I guess I'm concerned about
what this necessity for position
00:52:04.22\00:52:07.69
or ordination says to our
lay people who are true engine
00:52:07.72\00:52:12.49
to finishing the work of God
on this earth. When Ellen White
00:52:12.53\00:52:16.46
sees a great reformation
take place in which hundreds and
00:52:16.50\00:52:19.73
thousands are seen with their
Bible under their arms going and
00:52:19.77\00:52:22.94
visiting families and opening
before them the Word of God
00:52:22.97\00:52:25.51
I don't think she was seeing
ordained ministers. Furthermore
00:52:25.54\00:52:30.08
women who have served admirably
have done so in many cases in
00:52:30.11\00:52:36.45
areas of the world church where
there were no qualified men
00:52:36.48\00:52:38.92
in a position that the Church
Manual calls Church Leaders
00:52:38.95\00:52:43.12
You can find that in Pgs
75, 76 of the Church Manual.
00:52:43.16\00:52:46.59
These women give management to
local churches but they're not
00:52:46.63\00:52:49.33
ordained. Instead ordained
ministers visit the area
00:52:49.36\00:52:52.90
periodically to carry out the
ordinances and do that which is
00:52:52.93\00:52:56.97
only to be done by an ordained
individual. And as I think about
00:52:57.01\00:53:02.91
whether or not there would
be any circumstance that would
00:53:02.94\00:53:05.95
require ordaining women
into the gospel ministry for the
00:53:05.98\00:53:08.88
furtherance of the mission,
and maybe there's one I'm not
00:53:08.92\00:53:11.05
thinking of. But my mind
goes to the fact that in all of
00:53:11.09\00:53:14.06
salvation history no circum-
stance ever arose that would
00:53:14.09\00:53:18.16
merit an exception to the
pattern. No exception was made
00:53:18.19\00:53:21.06
to the maleness of the priests.
Not one of Jesus' disciples
00:53:21.10\00:53:23.90
was an exception. Not a single
clear example of female apostle
00:53:23.93\00:53:27.07
or elder can be found in the
New Testament. So I just don't
00:53:27.10\00:53:30.14
know what is different
about our situation today.
00:53:30.17\00:53:32.74
And I'm also concerned
when Group3 along with Group2
00:53:32.77\00:53:37.38
suggests that the reason
we should allow each region of
00:53:37.41\00:53:40.02
the church to decide for them-
selves whether or not to ordain
00:53:40.05\00:53:43.85
women is that that's what they
did in the Jerusalem Council
00:53:43.89\00:53:47.06
of Acts 15. They were allowed to
either be circumcised or not be
00:53:47.09\00:53:52.66
circumcised. But if you read
carefully individual decisions
00:53:52.69\00:53:56.50
to be circumcised were never the
issue in Acts 15. The issue was
00:53:56.53\00:54:00.70
whether or not churches should
teach that the Gentiles must
00:54:00.74\00:54:03.71
be circumcised in order to
be saved. And the council's
00:54:03.74\00:54:06.98
decision was NO. No
church was allowed to teach that
00:54:07.01\00:54:10.95
circumcision was necessary for
salvation. It was a universal
00:54:10.98\00:54:14.65
decision about the nature of
salvation and every church was
00:54:14.68\00:54:18.12
to be united on that
decision. Friends the church has
00:54:18.15\00:54:21.39
experienced a growing polar-
ization in many areas of faith
00:54:21.42\00:54:25.13
and practice over the last few
years and I don't think this is
00:54:25.16\00:54:27.60
the only that we're going to
face. We just cannot afford to
00:54:27.63\00:54:32.60
to set a precedent of leaving
disputed areas of Scripture to
00:54:32.63\00:54:36.07
every Division, Union Conference
or a local church to decide.
00:54:36.10\00:54:39.11
We're a world church, we've
got to remain united on Biblical
00:54:39.14\00:54:43.18
truths no matter how strong the
pressure may be to do otherwise.
00:54:43.21\00:54:46.38
I hope you believe me when I say
that I truly have great sympathy
00:54:46.41\00:54:51.85
for the 3rd Option's desire
to hold together the church
00:54:51.89\00:54:54.69
that is currently divided on
the issue of Women's Ordination.
00:54:54.72\00:54:57.63
I just don't think that it's
noble intent will be realized
00:54:57.66\00:55:01.20
by the plan that it recommends.
When reading the 3rd Option's
00:55:01.23\00:55:05.07
Position Summary with all of
its references to Organizational
00:55:05.10\00:55:09.44
and ecclesiastical and non-moral
those references to Biblical
00:55:09.47\00:55:14.48
teachings, these words can begin
to have a lessening effect on
00:55:14.51\00:55:19.68
the weight of the words or the
teachings. To the point where
00:55:19.71\00:55:23.32
it gives them a more human
quality and it makes it easier
00:55:23.35\00:55:26.62
for us to view them as flexible.
But we have to remember that
00:55:26.65\00:55:30.83
this is not the Church Manual
that we're dealing with here.
00:55:30.86\00:55:33.76
This is not working policy that
we're talking about, this is the
00:55:33.80\00:55:38.63
Bible. I just don't believe that
we have the authority to adapt
00:55:38.67\00:55:43.07
or disregard inspired instruct-
ion. I suspect there's a lot of
00:55:43.10\00:55:48.28
lay people who will at first
glance, see some real appeal in
00:55:48.31\00:55:52.45
the 3rd Option. Let me just
say that if you've ever felt
00:55:52.48\00:55:56.55
that some of those who are
not in favor of ordaining women
00:55:56.58\00:56:00.09
ever come across as over
confident or unsympathetic
00:56:00.12\00:56:05.03
or not the most thoughtful in
their approach and I'm sure that
00:56:05.06\00:56:08.70
has been me somewhere down the
line and you didn't know if you
00:56:08.73\00:56:12.63
wanted to be associated with
that kind of attitude, I can
00:56:12.67\00:56:15.74
relate. But above all the voices
and our own feelings and our
00:56:15.77\00:56:21.41
own fears, we've got to seek
first to be true to God and His
00:56:21.44\00:56:25.98
word. In the beginning of
Group 1 Way Forward Statement
00:56:26.01\00:56:30.79
we give three reasons for
our recommendation. To remain
00:56:30.82\00:56:33.49
faithful to Scripture, to
re- affirm and further promote
00:56:33.52\00:56:36.69
women in ministry and to
preserve Bible based unity in
00:56:36.73\00:56:40.10
the church. But let's be clear.
These three goals are not equal.
00:56:40.13\00:56:44.83
The truth is that the only
way we will truly accomplish our
00:56:44.87\00:56:48.80
goal of affirming women in
their work and ministry is if
00:56:48.84\00:56:52.37
we're faithful to Scripture.
The Word of God must be to us
00:56:52.41\00:56:55.94
as it was when we agreed to
Baptismal vow No. 5. The only
00:56:55.98\00:57:00.55
rule of faith and practice for
the Christian. The Bible must be
00:57:00.58\00:57:04.02
our only rule. No other
consideration can be allowed
00:57:04.05\00:57:07.69
to crowd in and not only for
our faith but for our practice
00:57:07.72\00:57:11.79
as a church as well. Group 3
has been a valuable contributor
00:57:11.83\00:57:15.96
to the Women's Ordination
conver- sation. They've affirmed
00:57:16.00\00:57:18.77
the pattern of loving, sacri-
ficial male leadership in the
00:57:18.80\00:57:21.80
home and church. They resisted
going down the full scale
00:57:21.84\00:57:25.71
abandonment of our methods
of Biblical interpretation
00:57:25.74\00:57:29.28
but I'm afraid that in an
effort to preserve the unity
00:57:29.31\00:57:32.18
of the church they could be
making another dangerous mistake
00:57:32.21\00:57:35.85
It's too late in the day
for us to do anything contrary
00:57:35.88\00:57:39.99
to God's Word. Let's pray.
Father in heaven I'm so grateful
00:57:40.02\00:57:44.69
for the privilege and opport-
unity to talk about Your Word
00:57:44.73\00:57:47.93
and Your will. Help us Lord,
help us to be gracious with
00:57:47.96\00:57:51.73
one another but help us to be
faithful to you. In Jesus' name.
00:57:51.77\00:57:56.50