It is a real pleasure to
part- icipate in this symposium
00:00:14.78\00:00:21.15
We're talkin about the
subject which is very sensitive
00:00:21.18\00:00:27.16
at this time, and it
would be sensitive at any time.
00:00:27.19\00:00:31.56
I guess from the very beginning
it was. The first time when
00:00:33.19\00:00:41.00
the church began to talk about
it was in 1881. We don't say
00:00:42.74\00:00:52.48
much about that occasion because
there is not much to say.
00:00:52.51\00:00:57.29
We just came in it was discussed
at the session, a GC session
00:00:57.32\00:01:05.99
and then it was taken to the
administrative committee at the
00:01:06.03\00:01:12.03
General Conference through a
small committee and that issue
00:01:12.07\00:01:20.08
never came back again. So what
to say? Only this and that's it.
00:01:20.11\00:01:26.21
The real history of this
matter in the church came late
00:01:27.88\00:01:35.76
in the last century, I mean
in the middle to the end of the
00:01:35.79\00:01:42.30
last century. And we're talkin
about Mohaven, but Mohaven
00:01:42.33\00:01:48.40
was in 1973. The meeting in
Mohaven was caused by a question
00:01:48.44\00:02:02.22
that came to the
General Conference from Europe.
00:02:02.25\00:02:07.96
From one of the northern
countries of Europe came
00:02:10.49\00:02:14.66
a question. And that
was could we ordain women?
00:02:14.70\00:02:21.40
Is there in the Bible and the
Spirit of Prophecy anything that
00:02:21.44\00:02:30.55
would prevent us
from ordaining women?
00:02:30.58\00:02:34.62
So the General Conference
appointed a committee of three.
00:02:34.65\00:02:40.26
Three scholars and let me tell
you scholars have been always
00:02:41.32\00:02:46.33
involved. And they took not
too long, they gave a unanimous
00:02:46.36\00:02:55.70
report and the report
was very simple and straight.
00:02:55.74\00:03:01.18
There is no base in the Bible
or in the Spirit of Prophecy
00:03:06.31\00:03:14.79
which are the two
most authoritative sources
00:03:18.06\00:03:21.90
for all Adventists in the world
00:03:21.93\00:03:25.30
of ordaining women to the
gospel ministry, there is no
00:03:27.64\00:03:31.04
authorization at all in
either one of the two sources.
00:03:31.07\00:03:36.78
I think that was the
nicest report that the church
00:03:39.38\00:03:44.75
ever got on the subject.
And to me that was enough.
00:03:44.79\00:03:52.69
At that point it
should've been closed.
00:03:54.56\00:03:59.40
The answer went to Europe
and it should've been said
00:04:00.60\00:04:07.84
this is what we find in the
Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy
00:04:07.88\00:04:12.15
therefore no need to get into
anything related to the subject
00:04:12.18\00:04:20.16
anymore. But you know how it
is. Whenever human beings ask a
00:04:20.19\00:04:26.23
question pretending to get the
answer what they have in mind
00:04:26.26\00:04:31.23
they never get any other answer.
If they get it then they begin
00:04:32.23\00:04:42.78
to create new questions,
actually many questions.
00:04:42.81\00:04:47.15
And then we got into
the many questions. Because,
00:04:48.98\00:04:55.09
the General Conference listening
to these people appointed
00:04:59.53\00:05:07.90
appointed a committee in 1973.
That was the beginning of the
00:05:07.94\00:05:16.54
discussion. It was called the
Committee on the Role of Women
00:05:16.58\00:05:25.95
in the Church. I want to call
your attention. The question
00:05:25.99\00:05:32.56
was on the Ordination of Women
And that was already answered
00:05:32.59\00:05:38.20
So to call a committee
for the Ordination of Women
00:05:38.23\00:05:43.54
was very awkward and this
diplomacy of the higher levels
00:05:43.57\00:05:51.81
that would not be proper.
So the Committee on the Role
00:05:53.48\00:06:00.46
of Women in the Church was very
appropriate because in the whole
00:06:00.49\00:06:06.39
world we were all clear
that there are many roles that
00:06:06.43\00:06:14.37
women could play in the church.
And that Committee was supposed
00:06:14.40\00:06:21.31
to say what were those roles.
Guess what? The Committee was
00:06:21.34\00:06:31.72
appointed. Names of members was
specified, 23 members 12 women
00:06:31.75\00:06:40.53
11 men. The Chair who was
the Vice President of the GC
00:06:40.56\00:06:51.17
Pr. Willis Hackett who was a
man of God, a good man to be the
00:06:51.21\00:07:01.05
President of the Committee and
the Secretary was Gordon Hyde
00:07:01.08\00:07:09.96
at the moment BRI Director which
seemed to be very appropriate
00:07:09.99\00:07:19.43
to produce a good study
and an excellent report.
00:07:19.47\00:07:28.94
But there is one thing I
want you to keep in mind.
00:07:28.98\00:07:34.62
The Committee was appointed
but no terms of references
00:07:36.08\00:07:41.62
for the Committee. This
is very unusual for the GC.
00:07:41.66\00:07:46.19
And I know this because I used
to work as an Assoc. Secretary
00:07:46.23\00:07:51.50
of the GC and I know very
well how we do when we appoint
00:07:51.53\00:07:59.17
the committee. The Terms
of Reference is the mandate
00:07:59.21\00:08:07.08
what the Committee should
do. It was an open mandate.
00:08:07.12\00:08:13.79
An open mandate is no mandate.
00:08:13.82\00:08:17.29
That way could come in whatever
other things which is not
00:08:20.66\00:08:25.83
in the name of the committee.
And that is what happened
00:08:25.87\00:08:32.41
because these members didn't do
anything about the role of women
00:08:32.44\00:08:43.99
They began to
discuss ordination of women.
00:08:44.02\00:08:49.22
So all that what was needed
00:08:50.83\00:08:57.07
to say this is open for
women became still closed
00:08:57.10\00:09:03.77
And the objective of
the study was changed.
00:09:06.01\00:09:13.45
But actually we
never said we're changing
00:09:13.48\00:09:17.19
And from there on there were
committees, groups, commissions
00:09:19.79\00:09:25.73
appointed one after the other,
all of them under the name
00:09:25.76\00:09:32.77
of Role of Women in the Church.
00:09:32.80\00:09:36.50
But what we were doing
in reality was discussing
00:09:38.07\00:09:43.28
ordination. I didn't attend the
first one in 1973. At that time
00:09:43.31\00:09:53.05
I was just out of the Seminary
Andrews University, back in
00:09:53.09\00:10:00.70
South America. So I could
not be a member of such a high
00:10:00.73\00:10:06.70
profile committee. But next time
I was included and from there on
00:10:06.74\00:10:16.21
I became a member in all
the committees up to TOSC
00:10:16.24\00:10:21.52
So there are few guys, very
few that today are old enough
00:10:23.02\00:10:30.43
to have been in all the commit-
tees, because others passed away
00:10:30.46\00:10:37.53
already, I guess George Reed is
one of them and I cannot recall
00:10:37.57\00:10:46.91
any other one who was
in all these meetings.
00:10:46.94\00:10:51.85
Anyway, I'm going to pay atten-
tion to the 1973 Mohaven meeting
00:10:51.88\00:10:59.42
because this was the foundation
for all the discussions
00:10:59.45\00:11:04.96
of Women's Ordination. Here is
where the tendencies of thinking
00:11:04.99\00:11:10.83
where the strategies for
this matter were established,
00:11:10.87\00:11:18.94
everything that actually
came after has its roots
00:11:18.97\00:11:25.65
in this meeting
and in this committee.
00:11:25.68\00:11:31.39
That to me is very important.
25 papers were written
00:11:31.42\00:11:38.89
for that committee. And it
is to me very, very interesting.
00:11:38.93\00:11:52.91
Only 4 of them had a title that
somehow related to ordination.
00:11:52.94\00:11:59.01
Like, for example, A Theology
of Ordination Inside of a Social
00:12:00.65\00:12:07.89
Scientist on Ordination of Women
Considerations on Issues related
00:12:07.92\00:12:14.56
to the Ordination of
Women. Types of Roles available
00:12:14.60\00:12:21.10
for Ordained Women in the Church
That to me was very strange!
00:12:21.14\00:12:28.61
Because there is no
mystery once you ordain a woman
00:12:28.64\00:12:33.42
What is her role. It has been
in the history of the church
00:12:33.45\00:12:42.49
ever since there was
the first ordained minister
00:12:42.52\00:12:48.86
in the Christian church.
We know what they were doing.
00:12:48.90\00:12:53.10
So, it was a very
strange kind of thing to say
00:12:54.30\00:12:59.34
the roles available for ordained
women. And the rest of the paper
00:12:59.37\00:13:06.51
they were all under the heading
of the Role of Women, but none
00:13:06.55\00:13:11.82
of them actually
tackled the subject.
00:13:11.85\00:13:17.79
They were all on Ordination.
00:13:17.83\00:13:21.36
This was one of the
trends beginning at that time.
00:13:24.17\00:13:33.94
This was the case all through
the 14 years that we've been
00:13:33.98\00:13:40.12
studying from 1973
Mohaven meetings up to 2013 TOSC
00:13:40.15\00:13:57.20
40 years. Doing the same thing
you know because you cannot
00:13:58.93\00:14:08.54
invent too many things but could
you go to search the Scriptures
00:14:08.58\00:14:16.28
about Women's Ordination they've
been using a few Biblical texts
00:14:16.32\00:14:23.83
and those were repeated in every
single committee that came after
00:14:26.63\00:14:34.24
as if we could find
anything new in this old Bible
00:14:35.50\00:14:44.78
which is always the same coming
from our God who never changes
00:14:44.81\00:14:50.99
and trying to be faithful
to Jesus Christ who is always
00:14:55.39\00:15:00.10
the same and trying to
follow the inspiration of
00:15:00.13\00:15:06.90
the Holy Spirit who
never contradicts Himself.
00:15:06.94\00:15:10.51
He would always say the same,
even when He at this late time
00:15:10.54\00:15:17.31
would inspire us into anything
He would never contradict
00:15:17.35\00:15:23.75
what He has already said in the
Scriptures. So what new could
00:15:23.79\00:15:28.16
come in this
repetition. No new thing.
00:15:29.46\00:15:35.76
But anyway what
was needed something.
00:15:35.80\00:15:39.97
There was the majority of papers
in favor of ordination, and
00:15:46.27\00:15:51.48
the majority of the members
of the Committee were in favor
00:15:51.51\00:15:55.75
of ordination. You may guess
this happened in every single
00:15:55.78\00:16:04.29
committee that was
appointed from thereon.
00:16:04.33\00:16:08.36
Majority of members in favor
and majority of papers in favor.
00:16:08.40\00:16:17.77
Probably the closest occasion
in which the papers were
00:16:18.91\00:16:27.25
just about the same from
both sides was from TOSC.
00:16:27.28\00:16:32.89
But not the members.
The members kept the trend.
00:16:32.92\00:16:39.86
But that is too far
away in our consideration.
00:16:39.89\00:16:44.37
Let's go in order of time. So
this paper, one of the paper was
00:16:44.40\00:16:54.08
entitled The Role of Women
Today A Theology of Relationship
00:16:54.11\00:17:00.58
Men to Women. And I'm going
to take this one as an example
00:17:00.62\00:17:08.92
of what began to become a trend.
00:17:08.96\00:17:12.66
Because this one deals
with Biblical material.
00:17:15.26\00:17:19.33
Particularly there are three
Biblical texts that are taken
00:17:21.84\00:17:26.61
in the paper. 1 Peter
2:9 which is very well known
00:17:26.64\00:17:33.11
1 Cor 11:2-16 and 1 Tim 2:11-15
00:17:34.02\00:17:46.46
Later on in the paper you
will find also Gal 3:26-28.
00:17:47.60\00:17:57.61
These texts are
going to be always present
00:18:00.28\00:18:05.35
I mean you cannot avoid them.
If you are coming from the side
00:18:07.62\00:18:13.59
that is in favor
of ordination I mean.
00:18:13.62\00:18:16.76
So they found their Biblical
base right here. But they were
00:18:17.76\00:18:24.53
quite honest in their papers.
This paper I'm talkin about
00:18:24.57\00:18:30.01
was written by, I would say the
most beloved Andrews professor
00:18:31.81\00:18:38.55
at that time. He was my
professor on that generation
00:18:38.58\00:18:45.72
He covered everybody
and we all talked about
00:18:47.06\00:18:51.63
the nice way he
would present his classes.
00:18:53.93\00:18:58.87
He was very clear in his
exposition of the material.
00:18:58.90\00:19:04.91
And usually very
close to the Bible.
00:19:04.94\00:19:08.58
So it came to many of us
as a big surprise what he did
00:19:11.21\00:19:17.22
at that
committee with this paper.
00:19:18.69\00:19:21.16
The first part which was a
discussion about the material
00:19:22.99\00:19:27.26
He was very fair. But
he came to the conclusion
00:19:28.46\00:19:36.10
that this paper was written to
defend the dignity of marriage.
00:19:39.54\00:19:49.35
And then he comes to the
following Biblical conclusion
00:19:51.52\00:19:55.66
which is, in his own words,
women share in the universal
00:19:55.69\00:20:03.20
priesthood of the people
of God and in the evangelism
00:20:03.23\00:20:11.07
of the world. They do not
seem to share in the ministry of
00:20:11.11\00:20:19.41
of the church.
This is his conclusion.
00:20:19.45\00:20:23.28
After doing exegesis of the text
00:20:23.32\00:20:26.89
not in the ministry. But
then he built up a theological
00:20:30.19\00:20:39.87
argument. I'm lookin at trends.
00:20:39.90\00:20:46.37
The theological argument in
favor of ordination of women
00:20:50.88\00:20:54.78
built on the public
ministry of a prophetess.
00:20:54.82\00:21:00.89
That was his way to
bring in what he didn't find
00:21:01.66\00:21:08.36
in the Biblical texts. So
now it's not a Biblical text
00:21:08.40\00:21:14.34
No Biblical content.
What he is working now is with
00:21:14.37\00:21:22.88
a theological argument
00:21:22.91\00:21:25.58
based on a
similarity that he attributed
00:21:27.42\00:21:34.06
to the higher authority of
the prophet compared to the
00:21:35.02\00:21:44.10
minister of the Gospel. He came
this way to say, It is true that
00:21:45.53\00:21:56.98
in the family the
man is head of the woman
00:21:57.01\00:22:03.22
in the church, however, which
is the body of which Christ
00:22:04.45\00:22:10.23
is the sole
head, it is different.
00:22:10.26\00:22:14.03
You see we have heard
in TOSC this argument.
00:22:15.53\00:22:19.43
Nothing new, the same
argument The same thing
00:22:19.47\00:22:25.94
I read recently somebody
saying in a kind of history
00:22:27.24\00:22:33.98
of the headship in the church,
that the headship was never
00:22:34.02\00:22:38.65
studied before nor
considered in any discussion
00:22:38.69\00:22:43.76
but later in TOSC
we came in with this
00:22:43.79\00:22:50.57
rather new argument. It
was in 1973 first committee
00:22:51.50\00:22:59.94
Then he points to
the use of Gal 3:26-28
00:23:01.31\00:23:07.88
And he did two
things with this text.
00:23:10.39\00:23:13.66
First he said it is a
theological statement.
00:23:13.69\00:23:20.46
Second, it is the hermeneutical
principle to interpret
00:23:23.70\00:23:35.04
all the texts related to women.
00:23:35.08\00:23:40.55
So now we have a new
hermeneutic and an understanding
00:23:42.08\00:23:51.93
of the content of
Galatians which is not
00:23:51.96\00:23:55.26
the one Paul is talkin
about. What Paul is talkin about
00:23:55.30\00:23:59.83
is the equality of men, women
slaves, and everyone referred
00:23:59.87\00:24:08.54
in the text for salvation.
00:24:08.58\00:24:13.68
They're all
equal as to salvation.
00:24:15.28\00:24:19.05
I'm going to just reads
what Paul actually says.
00:24:21.89\00:24:27.60
I'm beginning at
chapter 3, verse 26.
00:24:29.33\00:24:33.03
For you are all sons of God
through faith in Christ Jesus
00:24:33.07\00:24:41.88
This is clear for
everybody. No one would contest
00:24:42.84\00:24:47.15
such a declaration. Then, for
as many of you as were baptized
00:24:47.18\00:24:56.83
into Christ have put on Christ.
That is reference to baptism.
00:24:56.86\00:25:05.53
And then he goes on to say,
There is neither Jew nor Greek
00:25:06.43\00:25:12.57
there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male nor female
00:25:12.61\00:25:18.21
for you are all one in Christ.
00:25:18.25\00:25:22.62
If you are Christ's then
you are Abraham's seed and heirs
00:25:27.56\00:25:36.73
according to the
promise. Sons of God
00:25:36.77\00:25:42.14
His heirs to the
promise. This is the context.
00:25:43.61\00:25:47.71
For that you are one.
No reference at all about
00:25:50.98\00:25:58.02
ministers. So how could
anybody take this sentence as a
00:25:58.05\00:26:07.43
hermeneutical principle
to get to the conclusion
00:26:07.46\00:26:12.87
that here woman is authorized to
become a minister of the Church?
00:26:12.90\00:26:21.11
You can understand how
some of us were shocked.
00:26:23.95\00:26:28.88
That from the mouth of this
kind of professor we admired
00:26:30.22\00:26:34.26
came such a thing. He
was a theology professor
00:26:34.29\00:26:39.86
but very much close to the Bible
and we respected the way he
00:26:39.89\00:26:45.93
treated Biblical texts.
But this time he was way off
00:26:45.97\00:26:51.77
the text. For us
it was unbelievable.
00:26:52.31\00:26:58.31
And we talked, a few guys
who were his former students
00:26:58.35\00:27:04.32
And we even had the occasion
to evaluate when we came to
00:27:07.89\00:27:16.00
the next meeting in 1975.
We said to ourselves, you know
00:27:16.03\00:27:23.07
how students speak
about their former professors
00:27:23.10\00:27:27.04
So you professors watch out!
Students keep talkin about you
00:27:28.04\00:27:33.62
for generations and I'm
talkin about 40 years later
00:27:33.65\00:27:38.22
about this
professor. It was amazing.
00:27:38.25\00:27:43.46
Because it wasn't his way of
doing regularly his theology.
00:27:43.49\00:27:49.50
But at this time, it
seems to me that this guy
00:27:50.47\00:27:55.97
all of them came to
the feeling that they had
00:27:56.00\00:28:01.71
to come with this
conclusion. Somehow they had to
00:28:01.74\00:28:07.55
favor ordination of women.
00:28:07.58\00:28:10.55
He would say this, it was
for this reason the apostolic
00:28:17.23\00:28:23.83
church, the good news
by preaching by behavior
00:28:23.87\00:28:29.30
the church guarded among
other things against the regular
00:28:33.34\00:28:40.02
participation of women in
the ministry because they wanted
00:28:40.05\00:28:44.45
to have a good behavior to
impress people for evangelism
00:28:44.49\00:28:50.49
evangelistic purposes.
Not because God was telling us
00:28:50.53\00:28:56.06
anything. The church
wanted to be politically correct
00:28:56.10\00:29:02.20
with the community.
That was the reason, and then
00:29:02.24\00:29:07.91
he adds, the
reason of the church
00:29:07.94\00:29:11.81
that is the New
Testament time church I think,
00:29:11.85\00:29:18.99
probably, were based
on that which is proper
00:29:22.16\00:29:30.07
and fitting, did you get it?
He was not saying God told us,
00:29:31.90\00:29:43.48
he was saying we are
doing what is proper and fitting
00:29:43.51\00:29:47.45
He is not concluding I am
based on Biblical text. I think
00:29:47.48\00:29:54.66
This is a built up way of
reasoning parallel to Scriptures
00:29:58.76\00:30:08.20
It is not the Scripture content.
00:30:08.24\00:30:12.91
It is another thing that
theologians are used to doing
00:30:13.78\00:30:18.95
in general, not
everyone. But he was doing this
00:30:20.58\00:30:27.26
And what is
amazing, more amazing even
00:30:28.29\00:30:33.19
is the fact that he
knew what he was doing.
00:30:33.23\00:30:37.37
He could not ignore because
he was a very smart person.
00:30:39.27\00:30:44.24
When you depart from the text
and build up another reasoning
00:30:45.24\00:30:49.41
you have to know it and
he knew it because he says it
00:30:49.44\00:30:53.92
in the paper. So how could you,
any one of us who has the Bible
00:30:55.02\00:31:02.62
the way we understand the Bible
in our traditional hermeneutic
00:31:02.66\00:31:08.36
how could somebody
do this kind of thing?
00:31:09.40\00:31:14.57
Anyway it's a mystery.
You know, the human mind
00:31:14.60\00:31:19.67
sometimes has motivations
that nobody else can discover.
00:31:19.71\00:31:26.95
And we're not allowed to super
impose our motivation on a mind
00:31:28.02\00:31:33.52
that didn't express
clearly his understanding but he
00:31:33.56\00:31:40.40
actually said, because he says
00:31:40.43\00:31:44.67
that, I think, this is
not from the Bible. I think
00:31:45.40\00:31:50.37
he said probably, I'm not sure,
but probably this was the case.
00:31:50.41\00:31:55.98
So it is clear. In
that 1973 Mohaven meetings
00:31:57.25\00:32:05.75
there were only two papers
against ordination of women
00:32:05.79\00:32:12.23
Only two. These two
were written by women.
00:32:13.53\00:32:18.93
And you can smile and
think whatever is in your mind
00:32:23.14\00:32:30.85
but these women were
very strong in their views.
00:32:30.88\00:32:36.45
One presented a comprehensive
study on Old Testament
00:32:37.02\00:32:44.13
and New Testament
material and Spirit of Prophecy.
00:32:44.16\00:32:47.03
And she came to this conclusion
although there are vast areas
00:32:48.53\00:32:52.43
where the women of the church
can serve with distinction
00:32:52.47\00:32:58.17
an ordained
ministry is not one of them.
00:32:59.07\00:33:04.71
After going through the
Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy
00:33:05.51\00:33:09.75
this was her
conclusion. The other one
00:33:09.78\00:33:14.26
I don't go through the
whole argumentation because
00:33:15.19\00:33:18.59
you already know how it
goes when a person comes to
00:33:18.63\00:33:25.33
this conclusion. It is
in harmony with what is
00:33:25.37\00:33:29.74
clear in the Bible. The other
woman who was against ordination
00:33:29.77\00:33:40.12
said, specifically, 'I do
not suggest any of the following
00:33:40.15\00:33:50.13
1. That women be
ordained to the ministry.
00:33:50.16\00:33:56.87
2. That women be placed in
preponderantly administrative
00:33:58.33\00:34:04.97
roles where men must work
under their direct supervision.
00:34:05.01\00:34:12.21
All of the rest we could do.
00:34:14.48\00:34:19.05
And these two women were
very well known in the church.
00:34:22.36\00:34:27.53
Very influential.
One was at the Seminary
00:34:28.23\00:34:32.60
The other one was at the Review.
00:34:34.57\00:34:41.28
So you may imagine all
those who attended the Seminary
00:34:42.88\00:34:46.68
were influenced by the first
one I mean in that generation
00:34:46.72\00:34:53.32
and those who read the
articles of the second one
00:34:53.36\00:34:58.59
were influenced by somebody who
writes frequently in the Review.
00:35:00.46\00:35:08.17
Ok, this is as far
as papers are concerned.
00:35:10.61\00:35:14.24
Now we go to Role
of Women according to
00:35:14.28\00:35:21.12
the church, the report of
the church committee, 17 pages
00:35:21.15\00:35:30.23
And those 17
pages, the report says
00:35:30.26\00:35:39.37
is that men and women are equal
00:35:42.44\00:35:47.88
and then there is
silence in Scripture
00:35:51.78\00:35:58.72
about ordination of
women. There is no evidence
00:35:58.75\00:36:04.59
that they could be
ordained or that they could not.
00:36:04.63\00:36:09.83
This has been another
trend. We've always been talking
00:36:15.04\00:36:20.28
that the Bible doesn't say
anything about it, Yes or No
00:36:20.31\00:36:24.38
ordination of women to the
ministry. That is not true.
00:36:24.41\00:36:32.49
And the report would say
that there was no agreement
00:36:32.52\00:36:37.33
among the members of
the Committee but giving the
00:36:37.36\00:36:40.26
impression that were not
being in agreement to the text
00:36:40.30\00:36:47.80
actually there were many of us
00:36:49.37\00:36:56.08
in all these committees
that were entirely in agreement
00:36:56.11\00:37:02.55
with the fact. There is no
reference, therefore there is
00:37:02.58\00:37:07.92
no authorization for ordination.
But then they take the silence
00:37:07.96\00:37:14.66
and the silence
became another open door for
00:37:16.20\00:37:20.90
the discussion to continue.
00:37:20.94\00:37:25.64
At that moment
whoever was behind this,
00:37:32.25\00:37:35.78
let me tell you, there
were members of the committees
00:37:35.82\00:37:40.92
there were those who
were leaders of the committee
00:37:42.86\00:37:45.66
but we always had the impression
that there was somebody behind
00:37:47.06\00:37:52.53
I'm not talking about one
person probably there were many
00:37:53.80\00:37:58.64
but someone who was
not leader of the Committee
00:37:59.81\00:38:03.35
neither member of the Committee
who was pressing the leaders.
00:38:03.38\00:38:08.42
Because at that moment
when we came to the conclusion
00:38:11.95\00:38:16.89
that there was silence, we
could've read the Spirit of
00:38:16.93\00:38:21.20
Prophecy advising about
the silence in the Scriptures.
00:38:21.23\00:38:26.13
When questions arise
upon which we are uncertain
00:38:27.40\00:38:33.07
let us ask, What saith Scripture
00:38:33.11\00:38:39.11
And if the Scripture is silent
upon the question at issue
00:38:40.08\00:38:45.69
let it not be made
the subject of discussion.
00:38:46.99\00:38:54.10
This is Ellen White, very clear
and it is in Gospel Workers 314
00:38:54.76\00:39:02.24
But we didn't pay
attention to this.
00:39:03.44\00:39:06.84
We just kept on going.
00:39:06.88\00:39:13.52
The only real thing that
this Committee did was to advise
00:39:15.58\00:39:20.86
for further study (laughter!).
00:39:20.89\00:39:27.16
Not a word on any other imp-
ortant matter, but further study
00:39:28.70\00:39:34.80
So, another
committee was appointed.
00:39:34.84\00:39:39.64
Carry on, was the information
we got from this Committee.
00:39:47.22\00:39:53.25
This trend we are talkin
about to the ones we already
00:39:53.29\00:40:01.26
referred to,
now we add this one.
00:40:01.30\00:40:05.50
They use as a different
hermeneutic and one that
00:40:05.53\00:40:12.74
I've not said anything yet,
but from now on it will become a
00:40:12.77\00:40:19.18
constant. They need to
educate the world church
00:40:19.21\00:40:28.26
to accept ordination of women.
00:40:28.29\00:40:31.29
It was said in these
meetings and from there on
00:40:33.50\00:40:38.83
in almost every meeting
that we needed to educate
00:40:38.87\00:40:45.17
the world church. You see
those of us coming from outside
00:40:45.21\00:40:51.78
got the feeling that we had
a first class members of church
00:40:54.65\00:41:02.42
the leaders, and a second class.
00:41:02.46\00:41:07.40
Those from the first class,
no matter whether they were
00:41:08.26\00:41:12.07
many or just a
few, they were right.
00:41:13.50\00:41:17.97
And the other guys who came
from the under developed world
00:41:18.01\00:41:23.35
those guys don't have a mind.
They don't know how to study
00:41:23.38\00:41:27.55
the Bible. They don't
know how to come to conclusions
00:41:27.58\00:41:31.65
they are superficial ignorants.
00:41:31.69\00:41:36.62
And that came even
at the meetings in TOSC.
00:41:37.29\00:41:43.10
This time, not talking about
geography, but talkin about
00:41:44.33\00:41:48.77
those who would not
accept women's ordination.
00:41:48.80\00:41:53.88
All of them in the group that
I was in, it was said plainly
00:41:53.91\00:41:59.15
that those who were in
favor they were serious students
00:41:59.18\00:42:04.22
of the Bible and those who
were against were superficial
00:42:04.25\00:42:09.22
students of the Bible.
That was said now plainly.
00:42:09.26\00:42:14.83
You know why they changed
the geographical concept into
00:42:14.86\00:42:18.83
positions on ordination?
Because now they cannot say
00:42:18.87\00:42:26.31
the other divisions in
the world are all ignorants.
00:42:26.34\00:42:32.21
Because there are more
theology doctors out of these
00:42:32.25\00:42:37.45
highly developed
countries than here.
00:42:37.49\00:42:42.09
So what do you do with those?
Are you going to tell them
00:42:43.32\00:42:48.76
you cannot think? Those
guys have been writing books
00:42:48.80\00:42:55.17
producing tons of material,
and I will say, much more
00:42:55.20\00:43:02.11
than many who are
highly developed. So now
00:43:02.14\00:43:07.32
they had to change a little
bit. Not the intention, but yes
00:43:07.35\00:43:14.49
they're going to
say it. Then came 1975.
00:43:14.52\00:43:20.30
This was Role of Women study
group. The BRI organized these
00:43:21.93\00:43:28.67
studies and the reports were
given at the meetings of the BRI
00:43:28.70\00:43:37.21
BRI Executive Committee
is a rather large group
00:43:37.25\00:43:43.75
made up of people
coming from all over the world.
00:43:43.79\00:43:49.89
Every Division had the right
at that time to appoint one.
00:43:49.92\00:43:54.90
It happened at that
time that I was that member.
00:43:58.40\00:44:03.37
At BRI from the South American
Division. It wasn't because I
00:44:03.41\00:44:10.15
was somebody important because
in my area there were very
00:44:10.18\00:44:16.38
few who would be
able to understand English
00:44:16.42\00:44:20.42
I don't say to speak
because we speak very bad!
00:44:20.46\00:44:23.66
But we understand it.
And since there were so few
00:44:23.69\00:44:31.27
I was the lucky one to
participate and this report came
00:44:31.30\00:44:36.47
to these meetings.
Again, papers were presented
00:44:36.50\00:44:46.28
repeating the same
subjects and one of the papers
00:44:46.31\00:44:53.76
was Exegesis of 1 Tim
2:11-15. The same pattern
00:44:53.79\00:45:03.93
going through the text itself
the writer would come to the
00:45:03.97\00:45:09.47
conclusion that there was no
base for the ordination of women
00:45:09.50\00:45:15.78
But then he went on into
the second part of the paper
00:45:16.95\00:45:23.18
which he called implications.
00:45:23.22\00:45:26.96
And in the implications
he came up with the idea that
00:45:26.99\00:45:35.43
the hermeneutic principles
were based on Galatians
00:45:35.46\00:45:44.97
So certainly he communicated
with the other professors
00:45:46.78\00:45:52.31
from Andrews because this
one also was Andrews professor.
00:45:52.35\00:45:56.25
So it kept going in the same
direction. And the same texts
00:45:56.28\00:46:05.69
were again presented. Another
paper deals with EG White
00:46:05.73\00:46:14.84
counsels. And this was a lady.
She said there was not much
00:46:14.87\00:46:22.74
material in Ellen White
about ordination of women.
00:46:22.78\00:46:26.01
Actually there are only
two texts that could be taken
00:46:26.05\00:46:31.79
seriously. And she took
one of those, the one that
00:46:31.82\00:46:43.50
was published in 1885
in the Review. Sorry, 1895.
00:46:43.53\00:47:05.65
She went totally ignoring the
content but takin up only the
00:47:09.96\00:47:15.66
fact that the position of
hands could be made on women.
00:47:15.70\00:47:19.97
Not talkin anything about
the temporary job, about the
00:47:20.00\00:47:25.24
specific job that was
said that women could do
00:47:25.27\00:47:30.31
And then she went on to
quote another text about
00:47:30.35\00:47:35.98
the characteristics that are
taken into consideration for the
00:47:44.13\00:47:50.33
ordination of men. And she
did something very interesting
00:47:50.37\00:47:56.60
she crossed out all
the references to men
00:47:56.64\00:48:01.44
and put in brackets women and
actually applied to women all
00:48:01.48\00:48:10.69
that was said by
EG White about men.
00:48:10.72\00:48:15.22
I do not want to get into
details here, but if anyone
00:48:15.26\00:48:21.83
would like to see if we
could give the reference.
00:48:21.86\00:48:27.30
That was the way it developed.
This process at that time
00:48:29.74\00:48:34.71
Then it came 1985, the Role
of Women in the Church committee
00:48:34.74\00:48:39.48
this one was in preparation
to the Session that was coming
00:48:39.51\00:48:46.32
The meeting of the
Committee happened in March
00:48:46.35\00:48:49.99
The session was coming in July.
And then the recommendation
00:48:50.03\00:48:59.50
of the Committee
was to take no action.
00:48:59.53\00:49:03.30
The report went to
the 1985 GC Session
00:49:04.34\00:49:09.34
and actually the decision
was a little bit long, but
00:49:09.38\00:49:14.55
it was not allowed too long a
time for this, but the decision
00:49:14.58\00:49:21.69
was to take no action. They took
an action to take no action.
00:49:21.72\00:49:26.06
The big battle would
come five years later.
00:49:31.63\00:49:35.50
In 1990 and after that
1995. Those are the two Sessions
00:49:35.54\00:49:43.61
that normally
everybody takes as important.
00:49:43.65\00:49:49.45
But you see we are just
here keepin on with trends
00:49:49.48\00:49:56.26
that began in 1973. We kept the
same subjects, the same texts
00:49:56.29\00:50:02.86
the same Spirit of
Prophecy quotations and the same
00:50:02.90\00:50:07.90
intention to educate the world.
Even when we decided in 1990
00:50:07.94\00:50:15.98
not to ordain women, it was said
in the preamble that this was
00:50:16.01\00:50:23.59
the decision of the
General Conference at this time
00:50:23.62\00:50:28.49
making room for it
to come at another time.
00:50:29.76\00:50:36.43
And certainly the time came
in 1995 with the request of the
00:50:36.46\00:50:43.57
North American Division, this
time to allow certain Divisions
00:50:43.61\00:50:49.71
to ordain women and others
who do not like to ordain women
00:50:49.74\00:50:56.42
could go on with
their historical stand.
00:50:56.45\00:51:01.52
Well that was not approved
either. So we have actually
00:51:01.56\00:51:11.37
three Sessions, we talked mostly
about the 2 more important ones
00:51:11.40\00:51:16.57
in which larger discussions
were made, but there were three.
00:51:16.60\00:51:21.64
1985, 1990, 1995. In
every one the answer was NO.
00:51:21.68\00:51:28.78
Now we're talkin about
the next Session. TOSC came in
00:51:31.02\00:51:36.66
with the same texts,
with the same hermeneutic
00:51:36.69\00:51:43.63
These are hermeneutics
based on principle from 1973
00:51:43.67\00:51:49.47
is coming in. This intention
of educating the World is still
00:51:49.50\00:51:56.51
going on and let me tell you
I have the feeling that if we
00:51:56.54\00:52:03.15
do not allow women to be
ordained in this next Session
00:52:03.18\00:52:08.29
which I think maybe the case
00:52:08.32\00:52:11.96
the subject is going to keep on.
00:52:13.70\00:52:16.36
Because somebody is thinking, or
a group of people are thinking
00:52:17.53\00:52:27.91
that they are right even
if the whole world is wrong.
00:52:27.94\00:52:32.71
could it be in this way that we
do business that the whole world
00:52:36.02\00:52:42.52
is wrong and we who think that
are right has to carry the day?
00:52:42.56\00:52:49.46
That is very
amazing. We need to go
00:52:50.87\00:52:55.37
and find a way to
end this conversation.
00:52:56.50\00:53:02.34
And the only way to end
happily, to have a happy end
00:53:02.38\00:53:09.38
is to follow the Scriptures
and the Spirit of Prophecy.
00:53:09.42\00:53:15.19
Any other intent is going
to put us again in difficulties
00:53:15.22\00:53:24.20
as has been the case all
through history. Whenever
00:53:24.23\00:53:29.30
the people of God did anything
in opposition to God's Word
00:53:29.34\00:53:37.18
the result was
confusion, destruction, and,
00:53:37.21\00:53:44.39
to say the least,
destruction from the mission.
00:53:44.42\00:53:50.13
Israel was 40 years in the
desert just because they didn't
00:53:50.16\00:53:57.17
want to do what God was telling
them to do. We could save
00:53:57.20\00:54:03.24
all this time, all this energy
we could save all this money
00:54:03.27\00:54:11.61
by just making one
small, big decision to keep the
00:54:11.65\00:54:22.62
orientation from the Bible.
To do what is the will of God
00:54:22.66\00:54:28.76
But this is the
question we normally don't ask
00:54:29.73\00:54:34.84
in the 40 years
discussion we seldom say
00:54:34.87\00:54:40.64
we want to do the will of God.
Let's look for the will of God
00:54:40.68\00:54:47.72
in the
Scriptures. We don't say that.
00:54:47.75\00:54:52.52
We pick other subjects, but the
right question is still pending
00:54:52.55\00:55:00.03
I hope that this coming Session
will finally, the delegates come
00:55:00.06\00:55:08.50
to the realization that what
we need to do is the will of God
00:55:08.54\00:55:16.64
And do it, no matter
the consequences because
00:55:16.68\00:55:23.39
doing the will of God, the
consequences are always blessed
00:55:23.42\00:55:30.43
by God. And with His blessing
this church could go very strong
00:55:30.46\00:55:39.83
in fulfilling the mission. It is
not going to fulfill the mission
00:55:39.87\00:55:45.61
on authorization of women's
ordination. That is clear
00:55:45.64\00:55:50.21
in what is happening
right now in the world.
00:55:50.25\00:55:54.62
Wherever this subject is
not being under discussion
00:55:54.65\00:55:59.62
the mission is going
fast and full speed ahead.
00:55:59.65\00:56:04.06
Wherever the discussion
is present, the mission has
00:56:05.43\00:56:11.07
actually stopped. And we
need to come to that realization
00:56:11.10\00:56:17.11
and keep on going
with what God wants
00:56:17.14\00:56:22.98
the church to do at this time.
00:56:23.01\00:56:26.01
One anecdote, just to finish.
00:56:31.75\00:56:35.86
We were at a TOSC
meeting at noon, you know.
00:56:35.89\00:56:42.63
It was a pleasant moment, talkin
people from one side and another
00:56:42.66\00:56:50.41
Mark Finley was to my
right and he said to me,
00:56:52.31\00:56:57.11
Mario, tell me what
is the strongest argument
00:56:57.15\00:57:01.78
in opposition to
ordination of women?
00:57:01.82\00:57:06.29
And I said, I don't look
for any argument any more
00:57:06.32\00:57:12.53
at this time I'm
looking for attitudes.
00:57:12.56\00:57:16.90
And the attitude to
obey God is the only one
00:57:18.20\00:57:22.60
that is going to
solve the matter.
00:57:22.64\00:57:25.24
And I prayed that God will help
us to have an obedient attitude
00:57:25.27\00:57:33.52
of children of God to go through
this problem, and actually
00:57:33.55\00:57:39.12