Participants: Stephen Bohr
Series Code: WOHII
Program Code: WOHII000001A
|
00:14 Another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination
00:18 is that ordination was approved at the 1881 00:22 General Conference Session. 00:24 I want to read from Review and Herald, December 20, 1881, 00:29 page 392, about the resolution that was taken at that 00:34 General Conference Session. 00:41 That is of elder or pastor. 00:50 And so it sounds like the General Conference Session 00:53 approved the ordination of women pastors. 00:57 But when you look carefully at the evidence, 01:00 nothing such as this really took place. 01:04 You see, after the resolution was read, it was actually 01:09 a motion; the resolution was a motion. 01:13 After it was read at the General Conference 01:16 Session it was discussed. 01:17 We know that at least eight individuals spoke 01:21 to that specific issue, and a vote was taken by the 01:24 General Conference Session to refer this to the 01:28 General Conference Executive Committee. 01:30 And in the Executive Committee it died, until 1990 when it 01:36 resurrected in Indianapolis, and resurrected again 01:41 in 1995 in Utrecht. 01:43 And both of those times the General Conference did not refer 01:46 it to the Executive Committee. 01:48 The General Conference in Session said, No. 01:51 In fact the North American Division brought the resolution 01:55 to allow for the ordination of women at the General Conference 01:58 Sessions of 1990 and 1995. 02:02 It was debated on the floor, and it was rejected 02:05 by the delegates, after two individuals at Utrecht presented 02:09 the Biblical evidence. 02:10 Everyone was persuaded that Dr. Damsteegt presented 02:14 the more persuasive case from Scripture. 02:17 Another argument that is used is that the missionary outreach 02:22 of the church is being negatively impacted 02:25 by a failure to ordain women to pastoral leadership. 02:28 Actually, folks, statistics show that churches that have decided 02:34 to ordain women have generally experienced a 02:38 decrease in church growth. 02:39 The church is growing phenomenally outside of the 02:44 so-called developed countries, and they don't ordain women. 02:48 In fact I remember at Tosk, in one of the sessions at Tosk, 02:52 I think that it was maybe the first or the second, 02:54 this argument was being used in order for the church to grow 03:00 we need to ordain women. 03:01 And when we ordain women then the church is going to 03:03 experience explosive growth. 03:04 I remember a gentleman stood from Africa, a Ph. D., 03:09 and he said, You know, I keep on hearing this about 03:12 if we ordain women to the gospel ministry that the result 03:16 is going to be explosive growth in the church. 03:17 He says, You know, we have a very clear stand in our field 03:21 and we don't ordain women as pastors, 03:23 and we're experiencing explosive growth. 03:25 You could hear a pin drop. 03:28 Nobody could come to the microphone and contradict him, 03:32 because there are places in the world where the church is 03:37 growing phenomenally, and they don't ordain women. 03:40 In fact there are some scholars who are saying that God is never 03:43 going to pour out the latter rain until we ordain women. 03:46 I don't find that any place in Scripture that a condition 03:50 for receiving the latter rain is to ordain women 03:54 as gospel ministers. 03:56 Another argument that is used is that women today have been 04:03 called to the ministry. 04:04 They feel like God has called them, and therefore we should 04:08 accept their feelings as God accepting them being called 04:14 into gospel ministry, and into ordination. 04:18 But we believe that it's not feelings that dictate whether 04:22 something is in harmony with the will of God, it is Scripture 04:25 that tells us whether it is in harmony or not; 04:28 not impressions and feelings. 04:31 In the book, The Great Controversy, page 394 and 395, 04:34 Ellen White is describing some of the fanaticism that arose 04:38 at the time of the Millerite movement, 04:40 and she had this to say: 05:21 We cannot depend upon feelings and emotions, 05:24 and success in ministry as the litmus test of whether 05:29 the ordination of women is proper or not. 05:32 It's the Bible that dictates whether we should do it or not. 05:36 It's not feelings, it's not emotions, it's not a seeming 05:41 success in ministry. 05:43 Another argument which I found, which is very interesting, 05:46 is that those who believe in male leadership before the fall, 05:52 they also have to believe that women are a lesser 05:56 order of humanity. 05:58 And I'm quoting. And that women are inferior to men. 06:02 That is if you believe in male headship before the fall, 06:05 automatically they say, you believe that women are a lesser 06:08 order of humanity, and that women are inferior to men. 06:12 The fact is folks that this is a straw man argument as tall 06:17 as Nebuchadnezzar's image. 06:18 There is no egalitarian that I know of, 06:21 there is no individual who, you know, complementarian, 06:26 excuse me, who believes that God has different roles 06:30 for men and women, although they are equal in status 06:33 in the sight of God. 06:34 There is no complementarian that believes that women are 06:36 inferior or a lesser order of humanity. 06:39 That is just simply a fabrication in order to cause 06:44 people to go to the side issue and reject it, not on the basis 06:49 of theological argument, but on the basis of emotions. 06:52 I'd like to read from the International 06:55 Standard Encyclopedia. 07:26 A related argument is that if you don't believe that women 07:29 should be ordained to the gospel ministry then you do not believe 07:34 in women in ministry; once again a gigantic straw man. 07:39 Those of us on the committee who were opposed to women's 07:44 ordination to pastoral leadership are very much 07:48 in favor of women in ministry. 07:49 In fact, women can occupy virtually every position 07:53 in ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, except for 07:56 the position of elder or ordained pastor. 08:00 Those are reserved, according to the Bible, 08:03 for husbands of one wife. 08:06 Now it is also claimed that there is no parallel between the 08:12 relationship between God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, 08:15 and the relationship between man and woman originally 08:19 when they were created. 08:20 The fact is that the Bible makes it very clear that God 08:24 the Father and His Son are two individuals. 08:27 But the Bible says that even though they are two individuals 08:31 they are One, because they are composed of the same substance; 08:36 they are co-substantial, in other words. 08:39 And the Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible make it very clear 08:42 that Christ was subject to the will of His Father 08:46 even before sin came into the universe. 08:49 You read the first chapter of the book, 08:51 Patriarchs and Prophets, it comes through very clearly 08:54 that Jesus is subject to the will of the Father. 08:57 And when you go to 1 Corinthians 15:28 it makes it very clear 09:02 that throughout eternity future Christ will submit Himself 09:05 to the authority of His Father. 09:07 In other words, the Godhead has this idea of two individuals; 09:13 they are One co-substantially, and the Son is 09:18 subject to the Father. 09:19 Now in Genesis 1:26 we find the Father speaking to the Son 09:24 and saying, Let Us make man in Our image, 09:27 according to Our likeness. 09:29 Now the image of God is not only that Adam individually 09:33 is physically, mentally, and spiritually in the image of God, 09:36 and Eve individually is in the image of God physically, 09:39 mentally and spiritually. 09:40 It means that their relationship is a reflection of the 09:44 relationship between God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. 09:48 Let me ask you, Does the Bible say that Adam and Eve 09:52 were two individuals? 09:53 Does the Bible make it clear they're two individuals? 09:55 Does the Bible also say that they are one? 09:57 Yeah, they're close and substantial; they're one. 10:00 Does the Bible teach that the woman is subject to the 10:03 authority of the man? 10:04 Oh yeah, you say, I don't like that. 10:06 Well, then you wouldn't like the relationship between the Father 10:09 and the Son either, because the Bible says that the image of God 10:12 in which Adam and Eve were created, is a reflection on a 10:16 human scale of the relationship that exists between 10:19 the Father and the Son. 10:20 And as the Son is subject to the Father, and He doesn't complain, 10:24 and He doesn't whine, and say, I'm not going 10:26 to submit to anyone. 10:27 He's perfectly happy. 10:29 So God has created a system where the man and the woman 10:33 are two but one, but the woman is to submit to the 10:39 authority of the man. 10:41 Another argument that is used is that Ephesians 5:21 states 10:46 that the husband and the wife, the man and the woman, 10:50 must be mutually submissive. 10:53 That's one of the favorites, because it says, 10:55 submit one to the other. 10:58 However, several contextual matters are ignored by using 11:03 this argument that submission is not the wife to the husband, 11:06 it's the husband to the wife, and the wife to the husband. 11:08 Well, the fact is you have to look at the succeeding context 11:12 to see what the apostle Paul is saying. 11:14 In the succeeding context the apostle Paul then speaks about 11:18 wives submitting to their husbands, about children 11:22 submitting to their parents, and about bond servants 11:26 submitting to their masters. 11:28 Now my question is, are we to understand that Paul was 11:31 teaching that submission is a two-way street between 11:35 parents and children? 11:36 And children say, Oh, parents submit to me. Absolutely not! 11:40 Are we talking here about the apostle Paul saying 11:45 that masters and bond servants should be mutually 11:49 submissive one to another? 11:50 Are we saying that the commanding angels in heaven 11:54 are mutually submissive to the angels that they command? 11:58 Is there any evidence in Scripture that God the Father, 12:02 and God the Son, are mutually submissive to one another 12:06 in an egalitarian relationship? 12:08 There's no evidence of that. 12:10 Furthermore, in the very next verse the apostle Paul says, 12:16 along also with verse 24, that's verse 22 and verse 24, 12:20 the apostle Paul says, Wives submit yourselves 12:24 to your own husbands. 12:25 There's not one text in the writings of Paul where he says, 12:29 Husbands submit yourselves to your wives. 12:32 Besides in other places besides this text in Ephesians 5, 12:37 the apostle Paul says that wives should submit to their husbands. 12:41 For example, in Colossians 3:18, 19, the apostle Paul says: 12:51 And then he says: 12:58 Not once do we find any texts in the writings of the apostle 13:02 Paul where it indicates that husbands are to be subject 13:05 to the authority of their wives. 13:07 Let me read you a statement from Ellen White, Volume I of the 13:11 Testimonies, page 307, 308. Ellen White says: 13:20 So if you don't like the husband as the head of the family, 13:23 you're not going to like Christ as the head of the church. So... 13:31 And listen carefully. 13:50 Boy that would go over like a lead balloon in the world today. 13:54 Now she explains: 13:59 That's what it means to be mutually submissive. 14:30 Very, very clear. I mean there's no ambiguity here. 14:33 Everything that is said in favor of women's ordination, 14:39 when you look at all of the evidence, it becomes very clear 14:42 that that evidence is not saying what those who are in favor of 14:45 women's ordination would like it to say. 14:48 Another argument that is used is that as slaves were emancipated 14:52 from bondage to their masters, women should be emancipated 14:57 from their bondage to men. 14:58 Of course the question is, is it valid to compare the 15:02 emancipation of women with the emancipation of slaves? 15:06 The fact is, folks, that God established female submission 15:10 to male leadership before the fall. 15:13 It was established by God as His ideal, whereas the idea of 15:19 slavery was invented by man after the fall; 15:22 totally different context. 15:24 Furthermore, this is very important, ordination to the 15:29 church office of elder, or minister, is not a rite 15:33 but a calling that is not given to everyone by God. 15:36 Racial and gender equality are inalienable rights that have 15:42 been granted by the Creator to of all His creatures, 15:45 but pastoral ordination is not one of those inalienable rights 15:51 that have been granted to women by the Creator. 15:53 To the contrary, God has consistently reserved pastoral 15:57 ordination, in the Bible, for men. 16:01 Basic human rights are different than role distinctions 16:05 in the church, because rights belong to all human beings, 16:09 but roles in the church are according to God's calling, 16:13 and do not belong to all. 16:16 Another argument that is used is that there's a 16:19 trajectory in Scripture from not favoring the ordination 16:26 of women, to eventually favoring the 16:28 ordination of women. 16:29 But the fact is they have to go beyond the context of Scripture 16:33 to argue this, because as I pointed out before, 16:36 it becomes very clear that the apostle Paul in Galatians 3:28 16:40 says, There is neither male nor female. 16:43 Galatians was written long before 1st and 16:45 2 Timothy and Titus. 16:46 There's no scholar that would say that 1 Timothy 16:49 and 2 Timothy, and Titus were written before Galatians. 16:52 And yet in Timothy and Titus the apostle Paul says, Hey, the 16:56 elder and the bishop must be the husband of one wife. 16:59 I guess the apostle Paul at one time was egalitarian, 17:02 and then later on he became a complimentarian. 17:05 If you look at the New Testament evidence, that's what the New 17:09 Testament evidence indicates. 17:11 Another argument that is used is that it is certain that 17:17 Spiritual gifts and church offices are interchangeable. 17:22 They're the same things: a Spiritual gift 17:24 and a church office. 17:25 But the fact is that the New Testament makes a very clear 17:28 distinction between Spiritual gifts, which are given without 17:32 regard to gender, and church offices, 17:35 which are gender specific. 17:38 Let me give you an example: shepherding. 17:41 You know, in Spanish we have the word, only one word: pastoral. 17:45 Pastor, we have in English. 17:49 In English we have pastor and we have shepherd. 17:52 They mean the same thing. 17:53 Ellen White has a statement where she says that men 17:56 and women can serve as pastors of the flock of God, 17:58 so some people have said, See, she says that women can be 18:01 pastors of the flock. 18:02 The problem is the word pastors, as she uses it, 18:06 is different than the definition of pastors that we give today. 18:09 The meaning has changed. 18:10 For us pastors today mean individuals who have 18:13 been ordained to be ministers. 18:15 But in the times of Ellen White pastors means someone who has 18:19 the gift of shepherding. 18:20 Women were to shepherd children. 18:23 They were to shepherd other women. 18:25 But that doesn't mean that they were pastors in the sense 18:29 that we use the word today. 18:30 In other words, pastors is one of the spiritual gifts 18:33 according to the apostle Paul. 18:34 He says, pastors is one of the gifts of the Spirit. 18:38 But Paul is not speaking of a church office, 18:40 he's speaking about a spiritual gift. 18:43 Let me give you another example: evangelism. 18:45 Did you know that there were many successful women 18:48 evangelists in the history of the Adventist church 18:50 in the early history? 18:51 There were some powerful women evangelists. 18:54 And evangelism is one of the gifts of the Spirit 18:57 that is mentioned by the apostle Paul. 18:59 But the gift of evangelism is not the same as being an elder, 19:03 or being overseer of the church. 19:05 You're talking about church offices versus a gift that is 19:11 given for people to function within the 19:14 confines of the church. 19:16 Another idea that people present is that it is quite certain 19:22 that our pioneers were supportive of the idea of 19:27 women's ordination as elders and pastors of the church. 19:31 Nothing could be further from the truth. 19:34 I'm going to read now from two sources of our pioneers. 19:38 The first is Signs of the Times, December 19, 1878 where 19:43 J. H. Waggoner, the editor of Signs of the Times, writes this: 20:46 And he's commenting on 1 Timothy 3:12. 20:52 Another editorial in Signs of the Times, in 1895 is a response 20:57 to a question that was asked, Should women be elected to 21:01 offices in the church when there are enough brethren? 21:05 And this is the answer of the editor. 21:07 This is 1895, by the way. 21:10 Quite late in the 19th century. 21:13 This is the answer of the editor: 21:44 Assisting the deacons. 21:47 Notice deaconess is assisting the deacons. 21:56 fall to their lot. 21:58 You know, when I read this statement of the Pacific Union 22:00 in Constituency Session you could hear people snickering 22:03 and saying, Oh, you think that women can only serve as clerks, 22:08 and treasurers, and librarians of the tract society? 22:11 As if to say, How demeaning to women! 22:15 The editor continues saying: 22:34 Now listen carefully. 22:55 Here's the balance. 23:15 Always back to the word. 23:18 Another argument that is presented sometimes is that, 23:22 Okay, we might be willing to grant that the man should be the 23:27 head of the home, but that does not translate into the man 23:31 being also the head in the church, only in the home. 23:34 Well, the fact is that the apostle Paul, 23:36 both in 1 Timothy 3, and in Titus 1, clearly says that if a 23:42 man is not able to rule his own house, how can he rule 23:47 the church of God? 23:48 I found this remarkable statement that I want 23:51 to share with you. 23:52 I had not found this statement until a couple of days ago, 23:54 because the argument is the home is one place, 23:59 and the church is a different place. 24:01 But the fact is in this remarkable statement from 24:04 Ellen White, she's going to say that the home is a little 24:08 segment of the church, and the church is 24:11 composed of many homes. 24:12 Listen to the way that she expresses this. 24:14 This is in Volume 5, of Manuscript Releases, page 449. 24:19 She says: 24:59 She's quoting Scripture. 25:01 And now notice what she says: 25:26 So what you're saying is that the man should be the leader 25:33 in the small church in the home, but then in the larger church 25:38 it should be a woman. 25:39 That is incongruent. 25:41 Notice what she continues saying: 26:18 Notice the number of times that you have the masculine 26:21 pronoun in this passage. 26:23 And for me it was very significant that Ellen White 26:27 here speaks about the church in his own house, 26:30 and the larger church outside. 26:33 Another argument that is used is that in 1895 Ellen White wrote 26:39 a statement that shows that she approved 26:42 the ordination of women as pastors. 26:46 Well, let me read you the statement. 26:47 It's found in the Review and Herald, July 9, 1895. 26:51 Ellen White says here: 26:58 You begin to notice that this is not talking about pastoral 27:02 ministry, this is a part time thing. 27:08 Now listen to what the job description is. 27:18 That's the job description of a deaconess folks. She then says: 27:28 See! We should lay hands upon them, they say. 27:32 Well, we'll come back to that in a moment. 27:39 This shows that they weren't pastors or ministers, 27:41 if they have to counsel with the church officers or ministers. 27:57 Another means besides the ordained pastorate. 28:00 Now, let me just mention something which is very, very 28:05 important, and that is that those who favor 28:09 women's ordination many times will say, When you distinguish 28:13 between Ellen White's 1895 statement saying that you can 28:17 ordain deaconesses, but that you can't ordain pastors or elders, 28:21 that's an artificial distinction, is what they say. 28:24 Ordination is ordination, laying on of hands is the same. 28:29 It doesn't make any difference. 28:30 Well, you know, I did some research in the writings of 28:32 Ellen White and I discovered something very interesting. 28:35 Ellen White uses the expression, laying on of hands, many times, 28:40 and she uses the word ordination many times. 28:44 She will use laying on of hands to refer, for example, to laying 28:50 hands on missionary physicians. 28:52 And laying on hands, like I just read in this 1895 statement, 28:57 but she never uses the word ordination in conjunction with 29:05 those other cases where she speaks about laying on of hands. 29:08 For Ellen White there was a distinction between laying on 29:11 of hands and ordination. 29:13 Let me give you several examples, and I'll only give 29:16 you the references. 29:17 The word ordination is used regarding the twelve. 29:22 She says, Jesus laid hands on them and ordained them, 29:26 Acts of the Apostles, page 18. 29:28 It is used for the seventy male elders that 29:32 were chosen by Moses. 29:33 Ellen White says that hands were laid on them 29:37 in their ordination. 29:38 It is used also for Paul and Barnabus. 29:42 Hands were laid upon them in ordination, 29:45 Ellen White states. 29:46 That's Acts of the Apostles, 161. 29:49 The case of Moses ordaining the seventy elders 29:52 is Acts of the Apostles, page 94. 29:55 You know, Ellen White, in writing to lay 29:58 workers had this to say: 30:05 She's talking about lay people. 30:07 She's saying, hands of ordination might not have been 30:10 laid upon you, but that doesn't mean that you don't have 30:12 a work to perform. 30:13 Notice she says, hands laid upon you in ordination. 30:17 She's talking about separating ministers. 30:19 Also she wrote to wives of pastors and she said: 30:28 Once again laying hands of ordination. 30:31 Ordination with laying on of hands applying to 30:36 the pastoral ministry; never used of missionary physicians, 30:40 never used of women deaconesses. 30:42 In those cases it is only laying on of hands. 30:45 It is not ordination by laying on of hands. 30:48 Writing to the young people of the church, 30:51 this is Messages to Young People, page 226. 30:54 Ellen White wrote this: 31:17 Laying on of hands by what? by ordination. 31:21 Never does she use ordination for any of the other 31:24 setting apart only for the gospel ministry. 31:28 Jesus laid hands on children, didn't He? 31:31 So I guess He was ordaining children, right? 31:33 No, He wasn't ordaining. 31:35 Jesus laid hands on the sick, so I guess Jesus was ordaining 31:38 the sick. No, absolutely not! 31:40 The fact is that laying on of hands could take many forms, 31:45 and many shapes, but ordination by the laying on of hands 31:49 is applied exclusively to the ordination of gospel ministers. 31:54 I'd like to read this statement where Ellen White refers to the 31:59 missionary physicians. 32:00 This is Counsels on Health, page 540. She says: 32:13 Notice that ordination is not used; the laying on of hands. 32:31 Is that talking about setting them apart 32:34 as elders and pastors? No, as such as missionary physicians. 32:38 She continues saying: 32:51 In other words, Ellen White says ordain them. 32:53 And when they've been set apart, or not ordain them, 32:55 but set hands on them. 32:56 And when you have set hands on them, separated them for 33:00 missionary service, then they're going to think twice before they 33:03 decide to go into private practice to make money, 33:05 because they'll remember that they have been dedicated 33:08 to the Lord's service. 33:09 Another argument that is used is that it's quite certain that 33:15 the practice of ordination by the laying on of hands, 33:18 was embraced by the Roman Catholic Church from pagan Rome, 33:22 and the Seventh-day Adventist Church view of 33:24 ordination is identical, and therefore ordination should be 33:28 discarded altogether. 33:30 The problem with that is that ordination is 33:34 a Biblical practice. 33:35 It was practiced in the Old Testament when Moses laid his 33:39 hands on Joshua, when the priests and Levites were set 33:42 apart, when the seventy were set apart, when the leaders of 33:47 thousands, hundreds, fifty's, and tens were set apart, 33:51 when the apostles were ordained, when the deacons were ordained, 33:55 when the elders were ordained. 33:57 They were separated by the laying on of hands. 34:01 So how can you say that ordination came into the 34:05 Adventist church through the Roman Catholic Church that 34:08 embraced it from paganism? 34:10 The SDA view of ordination, by the way, is not, and has never 34:16 been sacramental as it is in the Roman Catholic Church. 34:20 We do not believe, nor have we ever believed, that there is any 34:25 virtue in the act itself, or in the words of consecration. 34:30 We have never believed that ordination confers supernatural 34:33 miraculous power, or that it confers authority above 34:37 that of Scripture. 34:38 This is a big straw man argument, because none of us 34:43 have ever believed the way that it is portrayed. 34:46 It is meant to distract from the real issues 34:49 involved in the discussion. 34:51 This argument is irrelevant to 34:55 Seventh-day Adventist practice. 34:56 Another... Are we doing well? Yeah? 35:00 Another argument that is used, and I quote now. 35:03 This appeared in Spectrum recently, very recently. 35:07 Could it be possible that the shameful statistics of violence 35:11 aimed largely at women around the world might have something 35:16 to do with the resistance to women's ordination? 35:19 And you laugh! And I laughed when I read it, too! 35:24 Now listen folks, the implications of 35:27 this are very serious. 35:28 If this were true, then God would be to blame for the abuse 35:33 of women in the Old Testament, because God established 35:36 the patriarchal system. 35:38 Jesus would be to blame for electing twelve male apostles, 35:41 and the apostle Paul would be to blame for insisting that 35:45 elders must the husbands of one wife. 35:48 This is another straw man argument that awakens strong 35:53 emotions, and that is intended to distract from the fact 35:58 that the Bible does not approve of the ordination of women. 36:02 Another argument that is used is that even though women's 36:06 ordination is not God's ideal plan, we should allow it as a 36:11 Plan B, even on a regional basis for three purposes: 36:16 To preserve unity in the church 36:18 Secondly, to conserve the integrity of the mission of 36:23 the church, and to guarantee everyone freedom of conscience. 36:28 Well, the fact is folks, you look at the prime example 36:32 that is used by those who are proposing this idea; 36:35 it's the idea of the election of the king in Israel. 36:39 You know, God said, I want to be your ruler. 36:42 I want to be your king. 36:43 And the people said, No, we want a king just like 36:46 the cultures around it. 36:47 It was a cultural issue. 36:48 And so God said, It's not a good idea, folks. 36:52 And He told them what the implications, 36:54 and what the consequences would be. 36:56 They said, We could care less! 36:57 We want our king, and so God said, You want your king? 37:03 I'm going to allow you to have your king, 37:05 but He said to Samuel, They have not rejected you, 37:09 they have rejected Me. 37:11 Now the question is, Did this lead to greater unity in Israel? 37:16 Listen folks, it led to the division of Israel into the 37:20 ten tribes of the north, and the two tribes of the south. 37:23 In other words it caused division in Israel. 37:27 Did it lead Israel to better fulfill its mission? 37:29 Are you kidding? Israel became defiled with the nations, 37:33 because their kings married the daughters of other kings, 37:37 of other nations, and they lost the knowledge of God. 37:40 And they came to practice idolatry. 37:42 Did it lead to greater freedom? 37:44 No, it led, ultimately, to bondage in the 37:49 Babylonian captivity. 37:50 And so this idea... 37:52 You know, it's difficult to grasp, or to understand, 37:56 how people could say that we need to adopt a Plan B 38:00 at this stage in human history, when Jesus, the coming of Jesus 38:05 is even at the door? 38:06 You know, doesn't God want us to return to the creation ideal, 38:10 to the ideal of the garden of Eden? 38:12 Doesn't God want us to return to the original diet? 38:15 Or does God say, Okay, go ahead with the Plan B. 38:18 You know, keep on eating cholesterol, and keep on getting 38:22 sick, and keep on getting cancer. 38:24 I don't mind! I don't care! 38:25 God doesn't act that way. 38:27 God loves us! You know, God says, Go back to the original 38:31 idea. Go to Plan A. 38:32 Why would you want a Plan B? 38:33 Does God want us to go back to the original plan 38:37 with heterosexual marriage in a culture that says, Oh, it's okay 38:42 for a man to marry a man, and a woman a woman. 38:44 Does God want us to adopt a Plan B like some are suggesting 38:47 even now in the church? Of course not! 38:49 The ideal is to go back to the way it was in the beginning. 38:53 Does God want us to adopt a Plan B when it comes to 38:56 the day of worship? 38:57 Oh, Sabbath/Sunday, who cares? 38:58 No! As Adventists we say we're supposed to return 39:02 to the creation ideal. 39:04 We return to the creation ideal in marriage, 39:06 to the creation ideal in the Sabbath, 39:09 to the creation ideal in diet, but not to the creation ideal 39:13 in roles within the home and the church. 39:16 Does God want us also to return to the creation ideal 39:20 when it comes to the relationships between 39:22 men and women in the church, and in the home? Absolutely! 39:26 He wants us to go all the way back to the beginning. 39:29 You know, this reminds me of the story when Jesus had His 39:33 discussion with the Pharisees. 39:34 They said, Is it okay for us to divorce a woman for any reason? 39:40 And Jesus said, No, it's not alright. 39:44 And they said, Well, Moses said that it was alright. 39:48 Moses gave us a Plan B. 39:52 And Jesus said, I know that Moses gave you a Plan B. 39:54 I'm just paraphrasing. 39:56 He says, I know that about Moses. 39:58 It was because of the harness of your hearts. 40:01 Just like when Israel elected a king. 40:03 It was because of the harness of your hearts that God allowed you 40:06 to get divorced for any reason, but at the 40:08 beginning it was not so. 40:10 The standard that Jesus returned people to was at the beginning. 40:15 It was not some Plan B in order to supposedly conserve the unity 40:20 of the church, and the integrity of the mission of the church, 40:23 and freedom for everybody. 40:26 Now another argument that is used is, 40:29 and this is very interesting, is the idea that Priscilla 40:34 assumed an authoritative teaching role over men. 40:40 The elect lady of 1 John was a leader of a local church, 40:46 and the women of the church of Philippi were the 40:50 leaders of that church. 40:51 Now I decided that I would check this out, 40:55 because a very notable scholar brought this out. 40:57 He said Priscilla assumed a teaching leadership role over 41:00 men, and the elect lady of 1 John:1. 41:03 She was the pastor of the church there. 41:05 And the women of Philippi, they were the leaders 41:08 of the church there. 41:09 So I said, I'm going to check into this. 41:10 And I discovered in Philippians 4:2, 3, the apostle Paul nowhere 41:16 says that the women of Philippi were the leaders of the church. 41:19 It simply says that the women were fellow laborers 41:23 with the apostle Paul. 41:24 Well, let me say, my wife is a fellow laborer with me, 41:27 but that doesn't make her an elder of the church. 41:29 It doesn't make her a pastor of the church. 41:31 Furthermore, nowhere are we told in Acts 18 that Priscilla 41:37 assumed an authoritative teaching role over men. 41:40 Rather the text clearly explains that both Aquila and Priscilla 41:47 taught Apollo's the word of God more accurately. 41:51 And it was not in a public worship service, 41:54 it was privately in the home. 41:57 There is nothing that would forbid a woman from being 42:00 a Bible instructor. 42:02 And finally, as to the idea that this elect lady of 2 John was an 42:12 apostle, or elder, or bishop, or pastor of the church. 42:15 No such thing is found there in the second epistle of John. 42:20 In fact Ellen White tells us what the 42:22 position this woman was. 42:23 She was a helper in the gospel work; a woman of good repute 42:29 and wide influence. 42:31 There are many women who would fit that description, 42:34 by the way, in Scripture; women such as Lydia, women such as 42:39 Dorcas, Priscilla, and other women that are mentioned 42:42 specifically in the book of Acts. 42:43 That does not make them elders or pastors of the church. 42:48 Another argument that is used is that the majority of the 42:53 members of the Theology of Ordination Committee 42:55 were in favor of women's ordination. 43:00 And what they do is they say, Well, there were 62 in favor, 43:05 and there were 32 against. 43:07 Now, let me share with you this: the picture is more 43:12 complicated than this. 43:14 Let me share with you why. 43:17 54 members of the committee agreed that male leadership 43:23 was established by God before the fall in the home 43:27 and in the church; 54, our 32 plus the 22 that belonged 43:32 Our 32 plus the 22 that belonged to group number three. 43:36 So basically, if you go to how many believed that male 43:41 leadership, in the home and in the church, was something that 43:44 got established before the fall, there were 54 that said, Yes, 43:47 and there were only 40 that said No. 43:50 Now what's interesting is that in group number two, 43:54 which are those who are favor of women's ordination, 43:58 because they say that men and women have equal, 44:01 and interchangeable roles. 44:03 Of those 40 there is disagreement, because some 44:06 of them believe that the man is still the leader 44:10 of the house, although he isn't the leader of the church. 44:14 Whereas some of them believe that the man is not the leader 44:17 in the home or in the church. 44:18 So there's disagreement among them. 44:21 The simple fact is folks, that the group of 40, and the group 44:26 of 22 disagree on the basic premises. 44:31 You see, the group of 40, they believe that men and women 44:36 have equal and interchangeable roles. 44:39 Group number three, which is known as Option 3, they say, 44:45 No, God has established that the man should be the spiritual 44:50 leader of the home, and of the church, but God will allow His 44:55 church to adopt a less than ideal plan; a Plan B. 45:00 I must say that group number two does not like the premises 45:04 of group number three, because group number three believes 45:07 in male leadership in the home and in the church. 45:09 And so there's disagreement even among those who believe 45:14 in regional ordination. 45:16 I have two more points that I want to bring here and present 45:21 before we bring this to a close. 45:23 This is a very serious one. 45:25 Some of those who favor women's ordination are saying that 45:30 Ted Wilson is opposed to women's ordination, and is attempting to 45:35 impose his will upon the world church. 45:37 And I'd like to read a paragraph from a very influential 45:42 ex-Biblical languages teacher at the Seventh-day Adventist 45:46 Seminary at Andrews, where she wrote a personal letter to 45:51 the General Conference president. 45:52 And it kind of leaked out, and I think it was 45:56 published by Spectrum. 45:58 This is what she wrote: 46:23 That's what she wrote to him. 46:25 The fact is folks, let me give you a firsthand report, 46:30 Elder Wilson attended all four meetings of the 46:34 Theology of Ordination Study Committee. 46:36 Never, even once, did he express his approval or disapproval 46:43 of women's ordination. 46:44 And we have some members of the Theology of Ordination Study 46:48 Committee here, and they can back up what I'm saying. 46:50 What he did emphasize... 46:52 And this is important. 46:53 What he did emphasize is that the Seventh-day Adventist Church 46:57 is a church that operates on the basis of policies, bylaws, 47:01 and constitutions. 47:02 And because the world church voted twice to deny the 47:07 ordination of women, Elder Wilson has expressed that the 47:12 will of the world church must be respected. 47:16 The decision not to ordain women is not something that has been 47:19 passed down from the General Conference leaders to the world 47:23 church, it has rather been decided by the world church 47:28 and the General Conference officers are simply carrying out 47:32 the will of the world church, which is what they have been 47:36 placed in positions of leadership to do to uphold the 47:39 policies, and the practices of the 47:42 Seventh-day Adventist Church. 47:43 Finally, there's this argument that according to denominational 47:50 policy, it is the prerogative of the Unions 47:55 to approve ordinations. 47:56 Now let me share with you: That's true, 48:01 but there's a caveat. 48:03 In our denominational structure, the Unions have the right to 48:08 approve ordinations that are sent to them by the conferences, 48:13 but they do not have the authority to establish the 48:16 criteria for those ordinations. 48:19 In other words, the Central California Conference can send 48:23 some names to the Union of pastors that they want ordained, 48:27 and the Union approves the ordinations, but the Union 48:31 cannot create the criteria for ordination. 48:35 The criteria is established by the world church in 48:38 General Conference Session, which means that the Pacific 48:43 Union has to abide by the criteria that is established. 48:48 And one of those criteria is that the elder, or the minister 48:56 must be the husband of one wife. 49:00 And so the Union can't approve the names that are sent by the 49:05 Conference, but they cannot approve names of women because 49:09 it goes against the policies of the General Conference, 49:14 and the Division, and, by the way, of the Union itself. 49:18 And so we've covered a lot of ground this evening. 49:23 I just wanted to give you a birds eye view of all of the 49:28 different arguments that are being used. 49:30 And as we examine these arguments it becomes very, very 49:36 clear, at least in my mind, that these arguments that are offered 49:41 are far from conclusive. 49:43 In fact many of them are based on faulty reasoning. 49:47 They're based on faulty study of Scripture, looking only at 49:52 partial evidence, redefining words, injecting context that 49:57 are not there, ignoring context that are found there. 50:01 I'd like to read, once again, the statement that I began with 50:07 in Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 40. 50:26 We have to be careful that we don't use arguments 50:30 that aren't wholly sound. 50:31 What does that mean? 50:33 That means that when an argument is brought forth 50:36 we have to examine it from every angle. 50:38 We have to look at the context. 50:40 We have to look at the broader context. 50:42 We have to look at what the Spirit of Prophecy had to say. 50:44 It would be helpful to look at what others have 50:46 said about that text. 50:47 Cover all of the bases. Ask questions. 50:50 Find avenues that perhaps might contradict the understanding 50:55 that we've got from that text. 50:56 In other words we have to be like lawyers 50:58 in the study of Scripture, like attorneys. 51:01 You know when attorneys are preparing a case to take before 51:04 a court of law, they are already anticipating all of the 51:07 objections that are going to be brought by the other attorneys. 51:10 They want to present an ironclad case. 51:14 They research, they scrutinize, they look for all of the 51:17 evidence so that there are no loose ends. 51:19 That's what Ellen White says that we must do. Once again: 51:40 At least for the time being. 51:43 You know, we can make an opposer look kind of foolish. 51:46 But then she continues saying: 52:14 You know, Ellen White says in the last days God's people will 52:19 be brought before tribunals, before the great men of the 52:23 earth to present the evidences of their faith. 52:27 She says that the great men of the earth will 52:32 examine our arguments. 52:33 She has even a statement where she says that the great men of 52:37 the earth will question every single statement that we make. 52:42 Which means that when we are studying these matters, 52:48 we must have an ironclad case where there are no loose ends; 52:54 where there's no way out. 52:55 We must know, for example, the arguments that are made 53:00 regarding the Sabbath. 53:01 You know, we usually just argue for the Sabbath the way 53:08 that evangelists do. 53:09 We use the same texts over and over again. 53:11 But there are some questions that people ask that perhaps 53:15 we haven't taken a closer look at. 53:16 Like, for example, you know I have a series that 53:21 I did on the Sabbath. 53:23 I don't know whether you've noticed in Genesis, 53:25 but one argument that is brought out by one of the prime enemies 53:29 of the Adventist Church, who used to be a Seventh-day 53:32 Adventist, he says, Look, in Genesis there's no statement 53:36 whatsoever that says that God commanded Adam and Eve 53:39 to keep the Sabbath. 53:40 It says that God rested the seventh day. 53:44 It doesn't say that God commanded Adam and Eve to rest. 53:48 And, furthermore, they say, and you know the word for rest 53:52 in Exodus 20 is different than the word for rest in Genesis. 53:56 So why the change of the word from Shabbat in Genesis, 54:04 to nuah in Exodus 20? 54:07 And so they say, See, in Genesis the Sabbath wasn't made for man, 54:13 the Sabbath was actually God's rest. 54:16 Another argument that is used is in Genesis it says that every 54:21 day of the week had an evening and morning, but it doesn't say 54:25 there was the evening and the morning of the seventh day. 54:28 And so the argument is because it doesn't say that was an 54:31 evening and morning of the seventh day, 54:33 God's rest is open to us every day. 54:35 And it sounds pretty logical. 54:37 It sounds reasonable. 54:39 Do we have answers to these things? 54:40 You know, some day we will have to stand before kings, 54:44 and rulers to give a reason for our faith. 54:46 If we can't get the issue of women's ordination right, 54:50 what makes us think that we're going to be able to stand before 54:53 kings, and rulers, and the great men of the earth, 54:56 to answer concerning the great things that we find 54:59 in God's Holy Word? 55:00 We must go to Scripture. 55:02 Scripture must be our authority. 55:04 And that's why in this symposium I have underlined to all of the 55:09 speakers that we need to base what we are saying on 55:14 a thus saith the Lord. 55:16 We must base our doctrine and our practice only upon 55:20 Scripture; not conjecture, not the ideas of men, 55:25 not what commentaries say, not even what the church has always 55:29 taught, but a thus saith the Lord. 55:32 What does the Word of God say? 55:35 So I believe that we have some exciting times 55:38 in the next three days. 55:39 It's going to be very intensive. 55:41 We're going to start early in the morning, 55:43 and we're to end late at night. 55:45 We have about fifteen presentations. 55:47 We have three panel discussions. 55:49 We have a town hall meeting at the end where people will 55:52 be able to ask questions live, and it's going to be a 55:56 marvelous experience. 55:57 I believe that for the weekend we're probably going to have 56:00 this place pretty well packed. 56:02 And so you all had better make sure that you come early 56:06 and get a prime spot, because we're going to have standing 56:10 room only when it comes to Friday and Sabbath. 56:13 I want to thank all of you for being here for this meeting. 56:17 I trust that what we've studied has been useful and beneficial 56:20 in setting the stage for everything that's 56:22 going to be discussed. 56:23 Before we bring this to and end, I would like to ask the Lord 56:27 to be with us, and to bless our symposium. 56:29 So lets bow our heads for a word of prayer. 56:32 Father in heaven, we come before You this evening to thank You 56:37 for Your Holy Word. 56:38 What a terrible thing it would be to live in this world without 56:44 any guidance whatsoever. 56:46 The world is so confused. 56:48 It is truly Babylon, as it's described in Scripture. 56:51 People don't know where to turn. 56:54 They don't know what's truth, and what is error. 56:57 But You have left Your Word as a sure guide in this world. 57:01 We thank You, Father for that Word that You have given to us. 57:05 Father we want to be servants of the Word. 57:08 We want to be like Samuel. 57:10 We want to say, Speak Lord, for Your servant heareth. 57:13 We want to obey what You say in Your Holy Word. 57:16 We don't want to look for excuses to be disobedient. 57:20 Father I ask that You will bless this symposium that the next 57:24 three days might be a mountain top experience for all of us. 57:28 I ask Lord that you will bless all of the speakers. 57:31 That You will give them wisdom from on high to speak words 57:36 from Your Holy Word that will burn within our hearts. 57:40 I ask, Lord, that You will bless also all of those who will be 57:44 tuning in by internet, by You-Tube, people who will 57:47 eventually watch these programs on television. 57:50 I ask, Father, that You will give people open minds 57:53 and hearts to receive Your Word as we find it written in that 57:58 book that You inspired so many ages ago. 58:01 We thank You Father for the promise of Your presence. 58:04 And we thank You Lord for hearing our prayer this evening, 58:07 for we ask it in the precious name of Your 58:10 beloved Son Jesus, Amen. |
Revised 2015-06-07