Another argument that is used
in favor of women's ordination
00:00:14.95\00:00:18.09
is that ordination
was approved at the 1881
00:00:18.12\00:00:22.70
General Conference Session.
00:00:22.73\00:00:24.43
I want to read from Review
and Herald, December 20, 1881,
00:00:24.46\00:00:29.42
page 392, about the resolution
that was taken at that
00:00:29.45\00:00:34.32
General Conference Session.
00:00:34.35\00:00:35.56
That is of elder or pastor.
00:00:41.95\00:00:43.43
And so it sounds like the
General Conference Session
00:00:50.67\00:00:53.93
approved the
ordination of women pastors.
00:00:53.96\00:00:57.23
But when you look
carefully at the evidence,
00:00:57.26\00:01:00.58
nothing such as
this really took place.
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You see, after the resolution
was read, it was actually
00:01:04.79\00:01:09.36
a motion; the
resolution was a motion.
00:01:09.39\00:01:13.30
After it was read at
the General Conference
00:01:13.33\00:01:16.20
Session it was discussed.
00:01:16.23\00:01:17.64
We know that at least
eight individuals spoke
00:01:17.67\00:01:21.04
to that specific issue,
and a vote was taken by the
00:01:21.07\00:01:24.89
General Conference
Session to refer this to the
00:01:24.92\00:01:28.02
General Conference
Executive Committee.
00:01:28.05\00:01:30.28
And in the Executive Committee
it died, until 1990 when it
00:01:30.31\00:01:36.70
resurrected in Indianapolis,
and resurrected again
00:01:36.73\00:01:41.12
in 1995 in Utrecht.
00:01:41.15\00:01:43.26
And both of those times the
General Conference did not refer
00:01:43.29\00:01:46.95
it to the Executive Committee.
00:01:46.98\00:01:48.30
The General
Conference in Session said, No.
00:01:48.33\00:01:51.72
In fact the North American
Division brought the resolution
00:01:51.75\00:01:55.18
to allow for the ordination of
women at the General Conference
00:01:55.21\00:01:58.79
Sessions of 1990 and 1995.
00:01:58.82\00:02:02.03
It was debated on the
floor, and it was rejected
00:02:02.06\00:02:05.65
by the delegates, after two
individuals at Utrecht presented
00:02:05.68\00:02:09.34
the Biblical evidence.
00:02:09.37\00:02:10.46
Everyone was persuaded
that Dr. Damsteegt presented
00:02:10.49\00:02:14.09
the more persuasive
case from Scripture.
00:02:14.12\00:02:17.10
Another argument that is used
is that the missionary outreach
00:02:17.13\00:02:22.56
of the church is
being negatively impacted
00:02:22.59\00:02:25.46
by a failure to ordain
women to pastoral leadership.
00:02:25.49\00:02:28.87
Actually, folks, statistics show
that churches that have decided
00:02:28.90\00:02:34.37
to ordain women have
generally experienced a
00:02:34.40\00:02:38.03
decrease in church growth.
00:02:38.06\00:02:39.90
The church is growing
phenomenally outside of the
00:02:39.93\00:02:44.60
so-called developed countries,
and they don't ordain women.
00:02:44.63\00:02:48.93
In fact I remember at Tosk,
in one of the sessions at Tosk,
00:02:48.96\00:02:52.74
I think that it was
maybe the first or the second,
00:02:52.77\00:02:54.50
this argument was being used
in order for the church to grow
00:02:54.53\00:03:00.23
we need to ordain women.
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And when we ordain women
then the church is going to
00:03:01.42\00:03:03.13
experience explosive growth.
00:03:03.16\00:03:04.53
I remember a gentleman
stood from Africa, a Ph. D.,
00:03:04.56\00:03:09.03
and he said, You know, I
keep on hearing this about
00:03:09.06\00:03:12.40
if we ordain women to the
gospel ministry that the result
00:03:12.43\00:03:16.09
is going to be
explosive growth in the church.
00:03:16.12\00:03:17.90
He says, You know, we have a
very clear stand in our field
00:03:17.93\00:03:21.25
and we don't
ordain women as pastors,
00:03:21.28\00:03:23.01
and we're
experiencing explosive growth.
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You could hear a pin drop.
00:03:25.95\00:03:28.33
Nobody could come to the
microphone and contradict him,
00:03:28.36\00:03:32.29
because there are places in
the world where the church is
00:03:32.32\00:03:37.28
growing phenomenally,
and they don't ordain women.
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In fact there are some scholars
who are saying that God is never
00:03:40.20\00:03:43.84
going to pour out the latter
rain until we ordain women.
00:03:43.87\00:03:46.77
I don't find that any place
in Scripture that a condition
00:03:46.80\00:03:50.96
for receiving the
latter rain is to ordain women
00:03:50.99\00:03:54.44
as gospel ministers.
00:03:54.47\00:03:56.55
Another argument that is used
is that women today have been
00:03:56.58\00:04:03.29
called to the ministry.
00:04:03.32\00:04:04.47
They feel like God has called
them, and therefore we should
00:04:04.50\00:04:08.00
accept their feelings as
God accepting them being called
00:04:08.03\00:04:14.96
into gospel
ministry, and into ordination.
00:04:14.99\00:04:18.82
But we believe that it's not
feelings that dictate whether
00:04:18.85\00:04:22.51
something is in harmony with
the will of God, it is Scripture
00:04:22.54\00:04:25.72
that tells us whether
it is in harmony or not;
00:04:25.75\00:04:28.63
not impressions and feelings.
00:04:28.66\00:04:31.13
In the book, The Great
Controversy, page 394 and 395,
00:04:31.16\00:04:34.33
Ellen White is describing some
of the fanaticism that arose
00:04:34.36\00:04:38.00
at the time of the
Millerite movement,
00:04:38.03\00:04:40.02
and she had this to say:
00:04:40.05\00:04:41.22
We cannot depend upon
feelings and emotions,
00:05:21.52\00:05:24.70
and success in ministry
as the litmus test of whether
00:05:24.73\00:05:29.84
the ordination of
women is proper or not.
00:05:29.87\00:05:32.73
It's the Bible that dictates
whether we should do it or not.
00:05:32.76\00:05:36.96
It's not feelings, it's not
emotions, it's not a seeming
00:05:36.99\00:05:41.31
success in ministry.
00:05:41.34\00:05:43.11
Another argument which I found,
which is very interesting,
00:05:43.14\00:05:46.69
is that those who believe in
male leadership before the fall,
00:05:46.72\00:05:52.29
they also have to
believe that women are a lesser
00:05:52.32\00:05:56.66
order of humanity.
00:05:56.69\00:05:57.98
And I'm quoting. And that
women are inferior to men.
00:05:58.01\00:06:02.73
That is if you believe in
male headship before the fall,
00:06:02.76\00:06:05.29
automatically they say, you
believe that women are a lesser
00:06:05.32\00:06:08.41
order of humanity, and
that women are inferior to men.
00:06:08.44\00:06:12.20
The fact is folks that this
is a straw man argument as tall
00:06:12.23\00:06:17.02
as Nebuchadnezzar's image.
00:06:17.05\00:06:18.64
There is no
egalitarian that I know of,
00:06:18.67\00:06:21.80
there is no individual
who, you know, complementarian,
00:06:21.83\00:06:26.81
excuse me, who believes
that God has different roles
00:06:26.84\00:06:30.88
for men and women, although
they are equal in status
00:06:30.91\00:06:33.23
in the sight of God.
00:06:33.26\00:06:34.29
There is no complementarian
that believes that women are
00:06:34.32\00:06:36.96
inferior or a
lesser order of humanity.
00:06:36.99\00:06:39.02
That is just simply a
fabrication in order to cause
00:06:39.05\00:06:44.23
people to go to the side issue
and reject it, not on the basis
00:06:44.26\00:06:49.06
of theological argument,
but on the basis of emotions.
00:06:49.09\00:06:52.73
I'd like to read
from the International
00:06:52.76\00:06:55.51
Standard Encyclopedia.
00:06:55.95\00:06:56.98
A related argument is that
if you don't believe that women
00:07:26.52\00:07:29.09
should be ordained to the gospel
ministry then you do not believe
00:07:29.12\00:07:34.32
in women in ministry; once
again a gigantic straw man.
00:07:34.35\00:07:39.29
Those of us on the committee
who were opposed to women's
00:07:39.32\00:07:44.14
ordination to pastoral
leadership are very much
00:07:44.17\00:07:47.99
in favor of women in ministry.
00:07:48.02\00:07:49.88
In fact, women can
occupy virtually every position
00:07:49.91\00:07:53.50
in ministry in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church, except for
00:07:53.53\00:07:56.81
the position of
elder or ordained pastor.
00:07:56.85\00:08:00.64
Those are reserved,
according to the Bible,
00:08:00.67\00:08:03.40
for husbands of one wife.
00:08:03.43\00:08:06.63
Now it is also claimed that
there is no parallel between the
00:08:06.66\00:08:12.40
relationship between God the
Father and His Son Jesus Christ,
00:08:12.43\00:08:15.94
and the relationship
between man and woman originally
00:08:15.97\00:08:19.03
when they were created.
00:08:19.06\00:08:20.09
The fact is that the Bible
makes it very clear that God
00:08:20.12\00:08:24.40
the Father and His
Son are two individuals.
00:08:24.43\00:08:27.06
But the Bible says that even
though they are two individuals
00:08:27.09\00:08:30.99
they are One, because they are
composed of the same substance;
00:08:31.02\00:08:36.50
they are
co-substantial, in other words.
00:08:36.53\00:08:38.97
And the Spirit of Prophecy
and the Bible make it very clear
00:08:39.00\00:08:42.65
that Christ was subject
to the will of His Father
00:08:42.68\00:08:46.48
even before sin
came into the universe.
00:08:46.51\00:08:49.17
You read the first
chapter of the book,
00:08:49.20\00:08:51.86
Patriarchs and Prophets,
it comes through very clearly
00:08:51.89\00:08:54.40
that Jesus is subject
to the will of the Father.
00:08:54.43\00:08:57.59
And when you go to 1 Corinthians
15:28 it makes it very clear
00:08:57.62\00:09:02.21
that throughout eternity future
Christ will submit Himself
00:09:02.24\00:09:05.79
to the authority of His Father.
00:09:05.82\00:09:07.28
In other words, the Godhead has
this idea of two individuals;
00:09:07.31\00:09:13.03
they are One
co-substantially, and the Son is
00:09:13.06\00:09:18.37
subject to the Father.
00:09:18.40\00:09:19.43
Now in Genesis 1:26 we find
the Father speaking to the Son
00:09:19.46\00:09:24.07
and saying, Let Us
make man in Our image,
00:09:24.10\00:09:27.92
according to Our likeness.
00:09:27.95\00:09:29.02
Now the image of God is
not only that Adam individually
00:09:29.05\00:09:33.72
is physically, mentally, and
spiritually in the image of God,
00:09:33.75\00:09:36.23
and Eve individually is in
the image of God physically,
00:09:36.26\00:09:39.76
mentally and spiritually.
00:09:39.79\00:09:40.82
It means that their relationship
is a reflection of the
00:09:40.85\00:09:44.91
relationship between God the
Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
00:09:44.94\00:09:48.13
Let me ask you, Does the
Bible say that Adam and Eve
00:09:48.16\00:09:52.00
were two individuals?
00:09:52.03\00:09:53.13
Does the Bible make it
clear they're two individuals?
00:09:53.19\00:09:55.16
Does the Bible also
say that they are one?
00:09:55.19\00:09:57.68
Yeah, they're close and
substantial; they're one.
00:09:57.71\00:10:00.37
Does the Bible teach that
the woman is subject to the
00:10:00.40\00:10:03.41
authority of the man?
00:10:03.44\00:10:04.47
Oh yeah, you say,
I don't like that.
00:10:04.50\00:10:06.28
Well, then you wouldn't like the
relationship between the Father
00:10:06.31\00:10:09.54
and the Son either, because the
Bible says that the image of God
00:10:09.58\00:10:12.78
in which Adam and Eve were
created, is a reflection on a
00:10:12.82\00:10:16.73
human scale of the
relationship that exists between
00:10:16.76\00:10:19.83
the Father and the Son.
00:10:19.86\00:10:20.89
And as the Son is subject to the
Father, and He doesn't complain,
00:10:20.92\00:10:24.66
and He doesn't whine,
and say, I'm not going
00:10:24.69\00:10:26.78
to submit to anyone.
00:10:26.81\00:10:27.85
He's perfectly happy.
00:10:27.88\00:10:29.60
So God has created a system
where the man and the woman
00:10:29.63\00:10:33.54
are two but one, but the
woman is to submit to the
00:10:33.57\00:10:39.50
authority of the man.
00:10:39.53\00:10:41.65
Another argument that is used
is that Ephesians 5:21 states
00:10:41.68\00:10:46.96
that the husband and the
wife, the man and the woman,
00:10:46.99\00:10:50.71
must be mutually submissive.
00:10:50.74\00:10:53.34
That's one of the
favorites, because it says,
00:10:53.37\00:10:55.62
submit one to the other.
00:10:55.65\00:10:58.11
However, several contextual
matters are ignored by using
00:10:58.14\00:11:03.60
this argument that submission
is not the wife to the husband,
00:11:03.63\00:11:06.15
it's the husband to the wife,
and the wife to the husband.
00:11:06.18\00:11:08.79
Well, the fact is you have to
look at the succeeding context
00:11:08.82\00:11:12.58
to see what the
apostle Paul is saying.
00:11:12.61\00:11:14.29
In the succeeding context the
apostle Paul then speaks about
00:11:14.32\00:11:18.48
wives submitting to
their husbands, about children
00:11:18.51\00:11:22.30
submitting to their
parents, and about bond servants
00:11:22.33\00:11:26.31
submitting to their masters.
00:11:26.34\00:11:28.14
Now my question is, are we
to understand that Paul was
00:11:28.17\00:11:31.50
teaching that submission
is a two-way street between
00:11:31.53\00:11:35.05
parents and children?
00:11:35.08\00:11:36.16
And children say, Oh, parents
submit to me. Absolutely not!
00:11:36.19\00:11:40.92
Are we talking here
about the apostle Paul saying
00:11:40.95\00:11:45.50
that masters and bond
servants should be mutually
00:11:45.53\00:11:49.00
submissive one to another?
00:11:49.03\00:11:50.66
Are we saying that the
commanding angels in heaven
00:11:50.69\00:11:54.50
are mutually submissive to
the angels that they command?
00:11:54.53\00:11:58.63
Is there any evidence in
Scripture that God the Father,
00:11:58.66\00:12:02.89
and God the Son, are mutually
submissive to one another
00:12:02.92\00:12:06.65
in an egalitarian relationship?
00:12:06.68\00:12:08.77
There's no evidence of that.
00:12:08.80\00:12:10.62
Furthermore, in the very next
verse the apostle Paul says,
00:12:10.65\00:12:16.95
along also with verse 24,
that's verse 22 and verse 24,
00:12:16.98\00:12:20.32
the apostle Paul says,
Wives submit yourselves
00:12:20.35\00:12:24.32
to your own husbands.
00:12:24.35\00:12:25.53
There's not one text in the
writings of Paul where he says,
00:12:25.56\00:12:29.59
Husbands submit
yourselves to your wives.
00:12:29.62\00:12:32.54
Besides in other places besides
this text in Ephesians 5,
00:12:32.57\00:12:37.46
the apostle Paul says that wives
should submit to their husbands.
00:12:37.49\00:12:41.37
For example, in Colossians
3:18, 19, the apostle Paul says:
00:12:41.40\00:12:47.13
And then he says:
00:12:51.94\00:12:53.27
Not once do we find any texts
in the writings of the apostle
00:12:58.06\00:13:02.30
Paul where it indicates
that husbands are to be subject
00:13:02.33\00:13:05.94
to the authority of their wives.
00:13:05.97\00:13:07.31
Let me read you a statement from
Ellen White, Volume I of the
00:13:07.34\00:13:11.75
Testimonies, page
307, 308. Ellen White says:
00:13:11.78\00:13:15.55
So if you don't like the husband
as the head of the family,
00:13:20.28\00:13:23.60
you're not going to like Christ
as the head of the church. So...
00:13:23.63\00:13:30.97
And listen carefully.
00:13:31.00\00:13:32.52
Boy that would go over like a
lead balloon in the world today.
00:13:50.73\00:13:54.45
Now she explains:
00:13:54.48\00:13:57.38
That's what it means
to be mutually submissive.
00:13:59.22\00:14:03.20
Very, very clear. I mean
there's no ambiguity here.
00:14:30.14\00:14:33.89
Everything that is said in
favor of women's ordination,
00:14:33.92\00:14:39.18
when you look at all of the
evidence, it becomes very clear
00:14:39.21\00:14:42.74
that that evidence is not saying
what those who are in favor of
00:14:42.77\00:14:45.64
women's ordination
would like it to say.
00:14:45.67\00:14:48.21
Another argument that is used is
that as slaves were emancipated
00:14:48.24\00:14:52.85
from bondage to their masters,
women should be emancipated
00:14:52.88\00:14:57.04
from their bondage to men.
00:14:57.07\00:14:58.44
Of course the question
is, is it valid to compare the
00:14:58.47\00:15:02.76
emancipation of women with
the emancipation of slaves?
00:15:02.79\00:15:06.83
The fact is, folks, that God
established female submission
00:15:06.86\00:15:10.91
to male
leadership before the fall.
00:15:10.94\00:15:13.56
It was established by God as
His ideal, whereas the idea of
00:15:13.59\00:15:19.06
slavery was invented
by man after the fall;
00:15:19.09\00:15:22.14
totally different context.
00:15:22.17\00:15:24.82
Furthermore, this is very
important, ordination to the
00:15:24.85\00:15:29.08
church office of elder,
or minister, is not a rite
00:15:29.11\00:15:33.70
but a calling that is
not given to everyone by God.
00:15:33.73\00:15:36.75
Racial and gender equality
are inalienable rights that have
00:15:36.78\00:15:42.57
been granted by the
Creator to of all His creatures,
00:15:42.60\00:15:45.77
but pastoral ordination is not
one of those inalienable rights
00:15:45.80\00:15:50.97
that have been granted
to women by the Creator.
00:15:51.00\00:15:53.95
To the contrary, God has
consistently reserved pastoral
00:15:53.98\00:15:57.95
ordination, in
the Bible, for men.
00:15:57.98\00:16:01.89
Basic human rights are
different than role distinctions
00:16:01.92\00:16:05.62
in the church, because rights
belong to all human beings,
00:16:05.65\00:16:09.49
but roles in the church
are according to God's calling,
00:16:09.52\00:16:13.36
and do not belong to all.
00:16:13.39\00:16:16.04
Another argument that
is used is that there's a
00:16:16.07\00:16:19.51
trajectory in Scripture
from not favoring the ordination
00:16:19.54\00:16:26.01
of women, to
eventually favoring the
00:16:26.05\00:16:28.76
ordination of women.
00:16:28.79\00:16:29.82
But the fact is they have to go
beyond the context of Scripture
00:16:29.85\00:16:33.43
to argue this, because
as I pointed out before,
00:16:33.46\00:16:36.29
it becomes very clear that the
apostle Paul in Galatians 3:28
00:16:36.33\00:16:40.56
says, There is
neither male nor female.
00:16:40.59\00:16:43.05
Galatians was
written long before 1st and
00:16:43.08\00:16:45.57
2 Timothy and Titus.
00:16:45.60\00:16:46.63
There's no scholar that
would say that 1 Timothy
00:16:46.96\00:16:49.28
and 2 Timothy, and Titus
were written before Galatians.
00:16:49.31\00:16:52.55
And yet in Timothy and Titus
the apostle Paul says, Hey, the
00:16:52.58\00:16:56.33
elder and the bishop must
be the husband of one wife.
00:16:56.36\00:16:59.03
I guess the apostle Paul
at one time was egalitarian,
00:16:59.06\00:17:02.50
and then later on he
became a complimentarian.
00:17:02.53\00:17:05.78
If you look at the New Testament
evidence, that's what the New
00:17:05.81\00:17:09.02
Testament evidence indicates.
00:17:09.05\00:17:11.66
Another argument that is
used is that it is certain that
00:17:11.69\00:17:17.46
Spiritual gifts and church
offices are interchangeable.
00:17:17.49\00:17:22.04
They're the same
things: a Spiritual gift
00:17:22.07\00:17:24.18
and a church office.
00:17:24.21\00:17:25.28
But the fact is that the
New Testament makes a very clear
00:17:25.31\00:17:28.56
distinction between Spiritual
gifts, which are given without
00:17:28.59\00:17:32.47
regard to gender,
and church offices,
00:17:32.50\00:17:35.25
which are gender specific.
00:17:35.28\00:17:38.01
Let me give you an
example: shepherding.
00:17:38.04\00:17:41.07
You know, in Spanish we have the
word, only one word: pastoral.
00:17:41.10\00:17:45.56
Pastor, we have in English.
00:17:45.59\00:17:49.02
In English we have
pastor and we have shepherd.
00:17:49.05\00:17:52.35
They mean the same thing.
00:17:52.38\00:17:53.59
Ellen White has a statement
where she says that men
00:17:53.62\00:17:56.22
and women can serve as
pastors of the flock of God,
00:17:56.25\00:17:58.71
so some people have said,
See, she says that women can be
00:17:58.74\00:18:01.78
pastors of the flock.
00:18:01.81\00:18:02.86
The problem is the word
pastors, as she uses it,
00:18:02.89\00:18:06.07
is different than the definition
of pastors that we give today.
00:18:06.11\00:18:09.30
The meaning has changed.
00:18:09.33\00:18:10.67
For us pastors today
mean individuals who have
00:18:10.70\00:18:13.88
been ordained to be ministers.
00:18:13.91\00:18:15.65
But in the times of Ellen White
pastors means someone who has
00:18:15.68\00:18:19.57
the gift of shepherding.
00:18:19.60\00:18:20.96
Women were to shepherd children.
00:18:20.99\00:18:23.47
They were to
shepherd other women.
00:18:23.50\00:18:25.71
But that doesn't mean that
they were pastors in the sense
00:18:25.74\00:18:28.97
that we use the word today.
00:18:29.00\00:18:30.56
In other words, pastors
is one of the spiritual gifts
00:18:30.59\00:18:33.54
according to the apostle Paul.
00:18:33.57\00:18:34.85
He says, pastors is one
of the gifts of the Spirit.
00:18:34.88\00:18:37.97
But Paul is not
speaking of a church office,
00:18:38.00\00:18:40.84
he's speaking
about a spiritual gift.
00:18:40.87\00:18:43.29
Let me give you
another example: evangelism.
00:18:43.32\00:18:45.84
Did you know that there
were many successful women
00:18:45.87\00:18:48.56
evangelists in the
history of the Adventist church
00:18:48.59\00:18:50.59
in the early history?
00:18:50.62\00:18:51.65
There were some
powerful women evangelists.
00:18:51.68\00:18:54.17
And evangelism is one
of the gifts of the Spirit
00:18:54.20\00:18:57.47
that is mentioned
by the apostle Paul.
00:18:57.50\00:18:59.64
But the gift of evangelism is
not the same as being an elder,
00:18:59.67\00:19:03.94
or being overseer of the church.
00:19:03.97\00:19:05.92
You're talking about church
offices versus a gift that is
00:19:05.95\00:19:11.48
given for people
to function within the
00:19:11.51\00:19:14.68
confines of the church.
00:19:14.71\00:19:16.28
Another idea that people present
is that it is quite certain
00:19:16.31\00:19:22.10
that our pioneers were
supportive of the idea of
00:19:22.13\00:19:27.68
women's ordination as elders
and pastors of the church.
00:19:27.71\00:19:31.28
Nothing could be
further from the truth.
00:19:31.31\00:19:34.11
I'm going to read now from
two sources of our pioneers.
00:19:34.14\00:19:38.40
The first is Signs of the
Times, December 19, 1878 where
00:19:38.43\00:19:43.75
J. H. Waggoner, the editor of
Signs of the Times, writes this:
00:19:43.78\00:19:47.91
And he's
commenting on 1 Timothy 3:12.
00:20:46.77\00:20:52.22
Another editorial in Signs of
the Times, in 1895 is a response
00:20:52.25\00:20:57.96
to a question that was asked,
Should women be elected to
00:20:57.99\00:21:01.74
offices in the church
when there are enough brethren?
00:21:01.77\00:21:05.40
And this is the
answer of the editor.
00:21:05.43\00:21:07.57
This is 1895, by the way.
00:21:07.60\00:21:10.45
Quite late in the 19th century.
00:21:10.48\00:21:13.01
This is the
answer of the editor:
00:21:13.04\00:21:15.67
Assisting the deacons.
00:21:44.43\00:21:47.06
Notice deaconess is
assisting the deacons.
00:21:47.09\00:21:49.44
fall to their lot.
00:21:56.98\00:21:58.18
You know, when I read this
statement of the Pacific Union
00:21:58.21\00:22:00.36
in Constituency Session you
could hear people snickering
00:22:00.39\00:22:03.78
and saying, Oh, you think that
women can only serve as clerks,
00:22:03.81\00:22:08.67
and treasurers, and
librarians of the tract society?
00:22:08.70\00:22:11.56
As if to say, How
demeaning to women!
00:22:11.59\00:22:15.17
The editor continues saying:
00:22:15.20\00:22:17.44
Now listen carefully.
00:22:34.98\00:22:55.20
Here's the balance.
00:22:55.24\00:23:15.39
Always back to the word.
00:23:15.43\00:23:18.16
Another argument that is
presented sometimes is that,
00:23:18.20\00:23:22.33
Okay, we might be willing to
grant that the man should be the
00:23:22.36\00:23:27.27
head of the home, but that
does not translate into the man
00:23:27.30\00:23:31.16
being also the head in
the church, only in the home.
00:23:31.19\00:23:34.30
Well, the fact is
that the apostle Paul,
00:23:34.33\00:23:36.74
both in 1 Timothy 3, and in
Titus 1, clearly says that if a
00:23:36.77\00:23:42.66
man is not able to rule
his own house, how can he rule
00:23:42.69\00:23:47.66
the church of God?
00:23:47.69\00:23:48.72
I found this
remarkable statement that I want
00:23:48.75\00:23:51.44
to share with you.
00:23:51.47\00:23:52.50
I had not found this statement
until a couple of days ago,
00:23:52.53\00:23:54.84
because the argument
is the home is one place,
00:23:54.87\00:23:59.71
and the church is
a different place.
00:23:59.74\00:24:01.34
But the fact is in this
remarkable statement from
00:24:01.37\00:24:03.98
Ellen White, she's going to
say that the home is a little
00:24:04.01\00:24:08.13
segment of the
church, and the church is
00:24:08.16\00:24:11.37
composed of many homes.
00:24:11.40\00:24:12.77
Listen to the way
that she expresses this.
00:24:12.80\00:24:14.50
This is in Volume 5, of
Manuscript Releases, page 449.
00:24:14.53\00:24:19.37
She says:
00:24:19.40\00:24:20.43
She's quoting Scripture.
00:24:59.93\00:25:01.05
And now notice what she says:
00:25:01.08\00:25:02.67
So what you're saying is that
the man should be the leader
00:25:26.55\00:25:33.22
in the small church in the home,
but then in the larger church
00:25:33.25\00:25:38.25
it should be a woman.
00:25:38.28\00:25:39.31
That is incongruent.
00:25:39.34\00:25:41.17
Notice what she
continues saying:
00:25:41.20\00:25:43.89
Notice the number of times
that you have the masculine
00:26:18.27\00:26:21.73
pronoun in this passage.
00:26:21.76\00:26:23.93
And for me it was very
significant that Ellen White
00:26:23.96\00:26:27.60
here speaks about the
church in his own house,
00:26:27.63\00:26:30.75
and the larger church outside.
00:26:30.78\00:26:33.44
Another argument that is used is
that in 1895 Ellen White wrote
00:26:33.47\00:26:39.20
a statement that
shows that she approved
00:26:39.23\00:26:41.97
the ordination
of women as pastors.
00:26:42.00\00:26:45.99
Well, let me read
you the statement.
00:26:46.02\00:26:47.83
It's found in the Review
and Herald, July 9, 1895.
00:26:47.86\00:26:51.92
Ellen White says here:
00:26:51.95\00:26:53.97
You begin to notice that this
is not talking about pastoral
00:26:58.59\00:27:02.01
ministry, this is
a part time thing.
00:27:02.04\00:27:03.98
Now listen to what
the job description is.
00:27:08.52\00:27:11.05
That's the job description of a
deaconess folks. She then says:
00:27:18.03\00:27:23.00
See! We should lay
hands upon them, they say.
00:27:28.91\00:27:32.12
Well, we'll come
back to that in a moment.
00:27:32.15\00:27:34.11
This shows that they
weren't pastors or ministers,
00:27:39.28\00:27:41.21
if they have to counsel with the
church officers or ministers.
00:27:41.24\00:27:44.17
Another means besides
the ordained pastorate.
00:27:57.79\00:28:00.75
Now, let me just mention
something which is very, very
00:28:00.78\00:28:05.15
important, and that
is that those who favor
00:28:05.18\00:28:09.67
women's ordination many times
will say, When you distinguish
00:28:09.70\00:28:13.75
between Ellen White's 1895
statement saying that you can
00:28:13.78\00:28:17.91
ordain deaconesses, but that you
can't ordain pastors or elders,
00:28:17.94\00:28:21.76
that's an artificial
distinction, is what they say.
00:28:21.79\00:28:24.27
Ordination is ordination,
laying on of hands is the same.
00:28:24.30\00:28:29.30
It doesn't make any difference.
00:28:29.33\00:28:30.69
Well, you know, I did some
research in the writings of
00:28:30.72\00:28:32.94
Ellen White and I discovered
something very interesting.
00:28:32.97\00:28:35.11
Ellen White uses the expression,
laying on of hands, many times,
00:28:35.14\00:28:40.68
and she uses the word
ordination many times.
00:28:40.71\00:28:44.90
She will use laying on of hands
to refer, for example, to laying
00:28:44.93\00:28:50.65
hands on missionary physicians.
00:28:50.68\00:28:52.76
And laying on hands, like I just
read in this 1895 statement,
00:28:52.79\00:28:57.89
but she never uses the word
ordination in conjunction with
00:28:57.92\00:29:05.06
those other cases where she
speaks about laying on of hands.
00:29:05.09\00:29:08.18
For Ellen White there was a
distinction between laying on
00:29:08.21\00:29:11.17
of hands and ordination.
00:29:11.20\00:29:13.55
Let me give you several
examples, and I'll only give
00:29:13.58\00:29:16.36
you the references.
00:29:16.39\00:29:17.42
The word ordination is
used regarding the twelve.
00:29:17.45\00:29:22.61
She says, Jesus laid
hands on them and ordained them,
00:29:22.64\00:29:26.54
Acts of the Apostles, page 18.
00:29:26.57\00:29:28.56
It is used for the
seventy male elders that
00:29:28.59\00:29:31.98
were chosen by Moses.
00:29:32.01\00:29:33.22
Ellen White says that
hands were laid on them
00:29:33.25\00:29:37.11
in their ordination.
00:29:37.14\00:29:38.54
It is used also
for Paul and Barnabus.
00:29:38.57\00:29:42.45
Hands were laid
upon them in ordination,
00:29:42.48\00:29:45.86
Ellen White states.
00:29:45.89\00:29:46.92
That's Acts of
the Apostles, 161.
00:29:46.95\00:29:49.27
The case of Moses
ordaining the seventy elders
00:29:49.30\00:29:52.77
is Acts of the
Apostles, page 94.
00:29:52.80\00:29:55.46
You know, Ellen
White, in writing to lay
00:29:55.49\00:29:58.22
workers had this to say:
00:29:58.25\00:29:59.77
She's talking about lay people.
00:30:05.77\00:30:07.06
She's saying, hands of
ordination might not have been
00:30:07.09\00:30:10.24
laid upon you, but that
doesn't mean that you don't have
00:30:10.27\00:30:12.16
a work to perform.
00:30:12.19\00:30:13.22
Notice she says, hands
laid upon you in ordination.
00:30:13.25\00:30:17.03
She's talking about
separating ministers.
00:30:17.06\00:30:19.41
Also she wrote to wives
of pastors and she said:
00:30:19.44\00:30:24.68
Once again laying
hands of ordination.
00:30:28.71\00:30:31.53
Ordination with laying
on of hands applying to
00:30:31.56\00:30:36.07
the pastoral ministry; never
used of missionary physicians,
00:30:36.10\00:30:40.23
never used of women deaconesses.
00:30:40.26\00:30:42.70
In those cases it is
only laying on of hands.
00:30:42.73\00:30:45.49
It is not ordination
by laying on of hands.
00:30:45.52\00:30:48.84
Writing to the young
people of the church,
00:30:48.87\00:30:51.48
this is Messages to
Young People, page 226.
00:30:51.51\00:30:54.77
Ellen White wrote this:
00:30:54.80\00:30:56.50
Laying on of hands
by what? by ordination.
00:31:17.30\00:31:21.18
Never does she use
ordination for any of the other
00:31:21.21\00:31:24.22
setting apart only
for the gospel ministry.
00:31:24.25\00:31:28.02
Jesus laid hands on
children, didn't He?
00:31:28.05\00:31:31.86
So I guess He was
ordaining children, right?
00:31:31.89\00:31:33.85
No, He wasn't ordaining.
00:31:33.88\00:31:35.29
Jesus laid hands on the sick,
so I guess Jesus was ordaining
00:31:35.32\00:31:38.33
the sick. No, absolutely not!
00:31:38.36\00:31:40.82
The fact is that laying on
of hands could take many forms,
00:31:40.85\00:31:45.49
and many shapes, but ordination
by the laying on of hands
00:31:45.52\00:31:49.18
is applied exclusively to the
ordination of gospel ministers.
00:31:49.21\00:31:54.43
I'd like to read this statement
where Ellen White refers to the
00:31:54.46\00:31:59.75
missionary physicians.
00:31:59.78\00:32:00.81
This is Counsels on
Health, page 540. She says:
00:32:00.84\00:32:04.86
Notice that ordination is not
used; the laying on of hands.
00:32:13.48\00:32:16.14
Is that talking
about setting them apart
00:32:31.14\00:32:34.26
as elders and pastors? No, as
such as missionary physicians.
00:32:34.29\00:32:38.94
She continues saying:
00:32:38.97\00:32:40.30
In other words, Ellen
White says ordain them.
00:32:51.03\00:32:53.34
And when they've been set
apart, or not ordain them,
00:32:53.37\00:32:55.59
but set hands on them.
00:32:55.62\00:32:56.65
And when you have set hands
on them, separated them for
00:32:56.68\00:32:59.99
missionary service, then they're
going to think twice before they
00:33:00.02\00:33:03.18
decide to go into
private practice to make money,
00:33:03.21\00:33:05.67
because they'll remember
that they have been dedicated
00:33:05.70\00:33:08.80
to the Lord's service.
00:33:08.83\00:33:09.88
Another argument that is used
is that it's quite certain that
00:33:09.91\00:33:15.01
the practice of ordination
by the laying on of hands,
00:33:15.04\00:33:18.00
was embraced by the Roman
Catholic Church from pagan Rome,
00:33:18.03\00:33:22.01
and the Seventh-day
Adventist Church view of
00:33:22.04\00:33:24.82
ordination is identical, and
therefore ordination should be
00:33:24.85\00:33:28.48
discarded altogether.
00:33:28.51\00:33:30.00
The problem with
that is that ordination is
00:33:30.03\00:33:34.13
a Biblical practice.
00:33:34.16\00:33:35.31
It was practiced in the Old
Testament when Moses laid his
00:33:35.34\00:33:39.04
hands on Joshua, when the
priests and Levites were set
00:33:39.07\00:33:42.66
apart, when the seventy were
set apart, when the leaders of
00:33:42.69\00:33:47.02
thousands, hundreds, fifty's,
and tens were set apart,
00:33:47.05\00:33:51.35
when the apostles were ordained,
when the deacons were ordained,
00:33:51.38\00:33:55.67
when the elders were ordained.
00:33:55.70\00:33:57.32
They were separated by
the laying on of hands.
00:33:57.35\00:34:01.50
So how can you say that
ordination came into the
00:34:01.53\00:34:05.27
Adventist church through
the Roman Catholic Church that
00:34:05.30\00:34:08.85
embraced it from paganism?
00:34:08.88\00:34:10.79
The SDA view of ordination, by
the way, is not, and has never
00:34:10.82\00:34:16.89
been sacramental as it is
in the Roman Catholic Church.
00:34:16.92\00:34:20.60
We do not believe, nor have we
ever believed, that there is any
00:34:20.63\00:34:25.37
virtue in the act itself, or
in the words of consecration.
00:34:25.40\00:34:30.02
We have never believed that
ordination confers supernatural
00:34:30.05\00:34:33.45
miraculous power, or that
it confers authority above
00:34:33.48\00:34:37.25
that of Scripture.
00:34:37.28\00:34:38.31
This is a big straw man
argument, because none of us
00:34:38.34\00:34:43.88
have ever believed the
way that it is portrayed.
00:34:43.91\00:34:46.92
It is meant to
distract from the real issues
00:34:46.95\00:34:49.81
involved in the discussion.
00:34:49.84\00:34:51.28
This argument is irrelevant to
00:34:51.31\00:34:55.04
Seventh-day Adventist practice.
00:34:55.07\00:34:56.48
Another... Are
we doing well? Yeah?
00:34:56.51\00:35:00.28
Another argument that
is used, and I quote now.
00:35:00.31\00:35:03.74
This appeared in Spectrum
recently, very recently.
00:35:03.77\00:35:07.17
Could it be possible that the
shameful statistics of violence
00:35:07.20\00:35:11.38
aimed largely at women around
the world might have something
00:35:11.41\00:35:16.03
to do with the resistance
to women's ordination?
00:35:16.06\00:35:19.10
And you laugh! And I
laughed when I read it, too!
00:35:19.13\00:35:24.08
Now listen folks,
the implications of
00:35:24.11\00:35:27.18
this are very serious.
00:35:27.21\00:35:28.25
If this were true, then God
would be to blame for the abuse
00:35:28.28\00:35:33.08
of women in the Old Testament,
because God established
00:35:33.11\00:35:36.52
the patriarchal system.
00:35:36.55\00:35:38.00
Jesus would be to blame for
electing twelve male apostles,
00:35:38.03\00:35:41.76
and the apostle Paul would
be to blame for insisting that
00:35:41.79\00:35:45.86
elders must the
husbands of one wife.
00:35:45.89\00:35:48.64
This is another straw man
argument that awakens strong
00:35:48.67\00:35:53.85
emotions, and that is intended
to distract from the fact
00:35:53.88\00:35:58.60
that the Bible does not approve
of the ordination of women.
00:35:58.63\00:36:02.30
Another argument that is
used is that even though women's
00:36:02.33\00:36:06.68
ordination is not God's ideal
plan, we should allow it as a
00:36:06.71\00:36:11.10
Plan B, even on a regional
basis for three purposes:
00:36:11.13\00:36:15.98
To preserve unity in the church
00:36:16.01\00:36:18.07
Secondly, to conserve the
integrity of the mission of
00:36:18.10\00:36:23.87
the church, and to guarantee
everyone freedom of conscience.
00:36:23.90\00:36:28.47
Well, the fact is folks,
you look at the prime example
00:36:28.50\00:36:32.55
that is used by those
who are proposing this idea;
00:36:32.58\00:36:35.19
it's the idea of the
election of the king in Israel.
00:36:35.22\00:36:38.98
You know, God said, I
want to be your ruler.
00:36:39.01\00:36:42.87
I want to be your king.
00:36:42.90\00:36:43.93
And the people said,
No, we want a king just like
00:36:43.96\00:36:46.35
the cultures around it.
00:36:46.38\00:36:47.47
It was a cultural issue.
00:36:47.50\00:36:48.82
And so God said, It's
not a good idea, folks.
00:36:48.85\00:36:52.58
And He told them
what the implications,
00:36:52.61\00:36:54.79
and what the
consequences would be.
00:36:54.82\00:36:56.19
They said, We could care less!
00:36:56.22\00:36:57.95
We want our king, and so
God said, You want your king?
00:36:57.98\00:37:03.32
I'm going to allow
you to have your king,
00:37:03.35\00:37:05.62
but He said to Samuel,
They have not rejected you,
00:37:05.65\00:37:09.58
they have rejected Me.
00:37:09.61\00:37:11.33
Now the question is, Did this
lead to greater unity in Israel?
00:37:11.36\00:37:16.15
Listen folks, it led to
the division of Israel into the
00:37:16.18\00:37:20.85
ten tribes of the north,
and the two tribes of the south.
00:37:20.88\00:37:23.63
In other words it
caused division in Israel.
00:37:23.66\00:37:27.07
Did it lead Israel to
better fulfill its mission?
00:37:27.10\00:37:29.85
Are you kidding? Israel
became defiled with the nations,
00:37:29.88\00:37:33.71
because their kings married
the daughters of other kings,
00:37:33.74\00:37:37.10
of other nations, and
they lost the knowledge of God.
00:37:37.13\00:37:39.97
And they came to
practice idolatry.
00:37:40.00\00:37:42.04
Did it lead to greater freedom?
00:37:42.07\00:37:44.37
No, it led,
ultimately, to bondage in the
00:37:44.40\00:37:49.54
Babylonian captivity.
00:37:49.57\00:37:50.88
And so this idea...
00:37:50.91\00:37:52.36
You know, it's difficult
to grasp, or to understand,
00:37:52.39\00:37:56.20
how people could say
that we need to adopt a Plan B
00:37:56.23\00:38:00.88
at this stage in human history,
when Jesus, the coming of Jesus
00:38:00.91\00:38:05.09
is even at the door?
00:38:05.12\00:38:06.15
You know, doesn't God want us
to return to the creation ideal,
00:38:06.18\00:38:10.52
to the ideal of
the garden of Eden?
00:38:10.55\00:38:12.42
Doesn't God want us to
return to the original diet?
00:38:12.45\00:38:15.41
Or does God say, Okay,
go ahead with the Plan B.
00:38:15.44\00:38:17.97
You know, keep on eating
cholesterol, and keep on getting
00:38:18.00\00:38:22.06
sick, and keep
on getting cancer.
00:38:22.09\00:38:24.35
I don't mind! I don't care!
00:38:24.38\00:38:25.72
God doesn't act that way.
00:38:25.75\00:38:27.18
God loves us! You know, God
says, Go back to the original
00:38:27.21\00:38:31.03
idea. Go to Plan A.
00:38:31.06\00:38:32.45
Why would you want a Plan B?
00:38:32.48\00:38:33.86
Does God want us to go
back to the original plan
00:38:33.89\00:38:37.66
with heterosexual marriage in a
culture that says, Oh, it's okay
00:38:37.69\00:38:42.17
for a man to marry a
man, and a woman a woman.
00:38:42.20\00:38:44.50
Does God want us to adopt a
Plan B like some are suggesting
00:38:44.53\00:38:47.78
even now in the
church? Of course not!
00:38:47.81\00:38:49.68
The ideal is to go back to
the way it was in the beginning.
00:38:49.71\00:38:53.48
Does God want us to
adopt a Plan B when it comes to
00:38:53.51\00:38:56.22
the day of worship?
00:38:56.25\00:38:57.28
Oh, Sabbath/Sunday, who cares?
00:38:57.31\00:38:58.70
No! As Adventists we
say we're supposed to return
00:38:58.73\00:39:02.03
to the creation ideal.
00:39:02.06\00:39:04.03
We return to the
creation ideal in marriage,
00:39:04.06\00:39:06.89
to the creation
ideal in the Sabbath,
00:39:06.92\00:39:09.15
to the creation ideal in diet,
but not to the creation ideal
00:39:09.18\00:39:13.83
in roles within the
home and the church.
00:39:13.86\00:39:16.86
Does God want us also to
return to the creation ideal
00:39:16.89\00:39:20.51
when it comes to the
relationships between
00:39:20.54\00:39:22.82
men and women in the church,
and in the home? Absolutely!
00:39:22.85\00:39:26.86
He wants us to go all the
way back to the beginning.
00:39:26.89\00:39:29.53
You know, this reminds me
of the story when Jesus had His
00:39:29.56\00:39:33.08
discussion with the Pharisees.
00:39:33.11\00:39:34.81
They said, Is it okay for us to
divorce a woman for any reason?
00:39:34.84\00:39:40.20
And Jesus said,
No, it's not alright.
00:39:40.23\00:39:44.03
And they said, Well,
Moses said that it was alright.
00:39:44.06\00:39:48.91
Moses gave us a Plan B.
00:39:48.94\00:39:51.97
And Jesus said, I know
that Moses gave you a Plan B.
00:39:52.00\00:39:54.85
I'm just paraphrasing.
00:39:54.88\00:39:56.56
He says, I know
that about Moses.
00:39:56.59\00:39:58.42
It was because of the
harness of your hearts.
00:39:58.45\00:40:00.98
Just like when
Israel elected a king.
00:40:01.01\00:40:03.22
It was because of the harness of
your hearts that God allowed you
00:40:03.25\00:40:06.69
to get divorced for
any reason, but at the
00:40:06.72\00:40:08.81
beginning it was not so.
00:40:08.84\00:40:10.78
The standard that Jesus returned
people to was at the beginning.
00:40:10.81\00:40:15.50
It was not some Plan B in order
to supposedly conserve the unity
00:40:15.53\00:40:20.69
of the church, and the integrity
of the mission of the church,
00:40:20.72\00:40:23.47
and freedom for everybody.
00:40:23.50\00:40:26.02
Now another
argument that is used is,
00:40:26.05\00:40:29.28
and this is very interesting,
is the idea that Priscilla
00:40:29.31\00:40:34.14
assumed an authoritative
teaching role over men.
00:40:34.17\00:40:40.45
The elect lady of 1 John
was a leader of a local church,
00:40:40.48\00:40:46.69
and the women of the
church of Philippi were the
00:40:46.72\00:40:50.83
leaders of that church.
00:40:50.86\00:40:51.90
Now I decided that I
would check this out,
00:40:51.93\00:40:55.28
because a very notable
scholar brought this out.
00:40:55.31\00:40:57.51
He said Priscilla assumed a
teaching leadership role over
00:40:57.54\00:41:00.67
men, and the
elect lady of 1 John:1.
00:41:00.70\00:41:03.76
She was the pastor
of the church there.
00:41:03.79\00:41:05.64
And the women of
Philippi, they were the leaders
00:41:05.67\00:41:08.35
of the church there.
00:41:08.38\00:41:09.41
So I said, I'm
going to check into this.
00:41:09.44\00:41:10.78
And I discovered in Philippians
4:2, 3, the apostle Paul nowhere
00:41:10.81\00:41:16.44
says that the women of Philippi
were the leaders of the church.
00:41:16.47\00:41:19.72
It simply says that the
women were fellow laborers
00:41:19.75\00:41:23.18
with the apostle Paul.
00:41:23.21\00:41:24.44
Well, let me say, my wife
is a fellow laborer with me,
00:41:24.47\00:41:27.56
but that doesn't make
her an elder of the church.
00:41:27.59\00:41:29.40
It doesn't make her
a pastor of the church.
00:41:29.44\00:41:31.74
Furthermore, nowhere are we
told in Acts 18 that Priscilla
00:41:31.78\00:41:37.23
assumed an authoritative
teaching role over men.
00:41:37.27\00:41:40.83
Rather the text clearly explains
that both Aquila and Priscilla
00:41:40.86\00:41:47.23
taught Apollo's the
word of God more accurately.
00:41:47.27\00:41:51.00
And it was not in a
public worship service,
00:41:51.03\00:41:54.73
it was privately in the home.
00:41:54.76\00:41:57.40
There is nothing that
would forbid a woman from being
00:41:57.43\00:42:00.46
a Bible instructor.
00:42:00.49\00:42:01.99
And finally, as to the idea that
this elect lady of 2 John was an
00:42:02.03\00:42:12.70
apostle, or elder, or
bishop, or pastor of the church.
00:42:12.73\00:42:15.54
No such thing is found there
in the second epistle of John.
00:42:15.57\00:42:20.09
In fact Ellen
White tells us what the
00:42:20.13\00:42:22.71
position this woman was.
00:42:22.75\00:42:23.96
She was a helper in the gospel
work; a woman of good repute
00:42:23.99\00:42:29.48
and wide influence.
00:42:29.52\00:42:31.21
There are many women who
would fit that description,
00:42:31.24\00:42:34.32
by the way, in Scripture; women
such as Lydia, women such as
00:42:34.35\00:42:39.04
Dorcas, Priscilla, and
other women that are mentioned
00:42:39.08\00:42:42.02
specifically in
the book of Acts.
00:42:42.05\00:42:43.40
That does not make them
elders or pastors of the church.
00:42:43.44\00:42:48.25
Another argument that is
used is that the majority of the
00:42:48.28\00:42:53.06
members of the
Theology of Ordination Committee
00:42:53.09\00:42:55.64
were in favor of
women's ordination.
00:42:55.68\00:43:00.22
And what they do is they say,
Well, there were 62 in favor,
00:43:00.26\00:43:05.55
and there were 32 against.
00:43:05.59\00:43:07.68
Now, let me share with
you this: the picture is more
00:43:07.72\00:43:12.28
complicated than this.
00:43:12.31\00:43:14.68
Let me share with you why.
00:43:14.71\00:43:17.00
54 members of the committee
agreed that male leadership
00:43:17.04\00:43:23.25
was established by God
before the fall in the home
00:43:23.28\00:43:27.39
and in the church; 54, our
32 plus the 22 that belonged
00:43:27.42\00:43:32.01
Our 32 plus the 22 that
belonged to group number three.
00:43:32.05\00:43:36.54
So basically, if you go to
how many believed that male
00:43:36.58\00:43:41.00
leadership, in the home and in
the church, was something that
00:43:41.04\00:43:44.41
got established before the fall,
there were 54 that said, Yes,
00:43:44.44\00:43:47.68
and there were
only 40 that said No.
00:43:47.71\00:43:50.38
Now what's interesting
is that in group number two,
00:43:50.42\00:43:54.25
which are those who are
favor of women's ordination,
00:43:54.28\00:43:58.08
because they say that
men and women have equal,
00:43:58.11\00:44:01.10
and interchangeable roles.
00:44:01.14\00:44:02.96
Of those 40 there is
disagreement, because some
00:44:03.00\00:44:06.91
of them believe that
the man is still the leader
00:44:06.95\00:44:10.80
of the house, although he
isn't the leader of the church.
00:44:10.83\00:44:14.04
Whereas some of them believe
that the man is not the leader
00:44:14.07\00:44:17.25
in the home or in the church.
00:44:17.28\00:44:18.63
So there's
disagreement among them.
00:44:18.66\00:44:21.24
The simple fact is folks, that
the group of 40, and the group
00:44:21.28\00:44:26.94
of 22 disagree on
the basic premises.
00:44:26.97\00:44:31.19
You see, the group of 40,
they believe that men and women
00:44:31.22\00:44:36.59
have equal and
interchangeable roles.
00:44:36.63\00:44:39.39
Group number three, which
is known as Option 3, they say,
00:44:39.43\00:44:45.19
No, God has established that
the man should be the spiritual
00:44:45.22\00:44:50.40
leader of the home, and of the
church, but God will allow His
00:44:50.43\00:44:55.57
church to adopt a less
than ideal plan; a Plan B.
00:44:55.60\00:45:00.54
I must say that group number
two does not like the premises
00:45:00.57\00:45:03.97
of group number three, because
group number three believes
00:45:04.01\00:45:07.38
in male leadership in
the home and in the church.
00:45:07.41\00:45:09.73
And so there's disagreement
even among those who believe
00:45:09.76\00:45:14.10
in regional ordination.
00:45:14.13\00:45:16.37
I have two more points that I
want to bring here and present
00:45:16.41\00:45:21.85
before we bring this to a close.
00:45:21.89\00:45:23.48
This is a very serious one.
00:45:23.52\00:45:25.57
Some of those who favor women's
ordination are saying that
00:45:25.60\00:45:30.82
Ted Wilson is opposed to women's
ordination, and is attempting to
00:45:30.86\00:45:35.35
impose his will
upon the world church.
00:45:35.39\00:45:37.57
And I'd like to read a paragraph
from a very influential
00:45:37.61\00:45:42.61
ex-Biblical languages teacher
at the Seventh-day Adventist
00:45:42.64\00:45:46.94
Seminary at Andrews, where
she wrote a personal letter to
00:45:46.98\00:45:51.24
the General
Conference president.
00:45:51.28\00:45:52.94
And it kind of leaked
out, and I think it was
00:45:52.98\00:45:56.61
published by Spectrum.
00:45:56.64\00:45:58.26
This is what she wrote:
00:45:58.30\00:45:59.88
That's what she wrote to him.
00:46:23.46\00:46:25.86
The fact is folks, let me
give you a firsthand report,
00:46:25.89\00:46:30.53
Elder Wilson attended
all four meetings of the
00:46:30.57\00:46:34.60
Theology of
Ordination Study Committee.
00:46:34.63\00:46:36.45
Never, even once, did he express
his approval or disapproval
00:46:36.48\00:46:43.36
of women's ordination.
00:46:43.39\00:46:44.92
And we have some members of
the Theology of Ordination Study
00:46:44.96\00:46:48.36
Committee here, and they
can back up what I'm saying.
00:46:48.40\00:46:50.75
What he did emphasize...
00:46:50.79\00:46:52.38
And this is important.
00:46:52.41\00:46:53.93
What he did emphasize is that
the Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:46:53.96\00:46:57.75
is a church that operates on
the basis of policies, bylaws,
00:46:57.79\00:47:01.54
and constitutions.
00:47:01.58\00:47:02.95
And because the world
church voted twice to deny the
00:47:02.98\00:47:07.83
ordination of women, Elder
Wilson has expressed that the
00:47:07.87\00:47:12.68
will of the world
church must be respected.
00:47:12.72\00:47:16.06
The decision not to ordain women
is not something that has been
00:47:16.09\00:47:19.84
passed down from the General
Conference leaders to the world
00:47:19.87\00:47:23.58
church, it has rather been
decided by the world church
00:47:23.62\00:47:28.10
and the General Conference
officers are simply carrying out
00:47:28.13\00:47:32.29
the will of the world church,
which is what they have been
00:47:32.33\00:47:36.45
placed in positions of
leadership to do to uphold the
00:47:36.48\00:47:39.27
policies, and
the practices of the
00:47:39.30\00:47:42.03
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:47:42.13\00:47:43.33
Finally, there's this argument
that according to denominational
00:47:43.37\00:47:50.74
policy, it is the
prerogative of the Unions
00:47:50.77\00:47:55.24
to approve ordinations.
00:47:55.27\00:47:56.91
Now let me share
with you: That's true,
00:47:56.95\00:48:01.27
but there's a caveat.
00:48:01.31\00:48:03.65
In our denominational structure,
the Unions have the right to
00:48:03.68\00:48:08.39
approve ordinations that are
sent to them by the conferences,
00:48:08.43\00:48:13.11
but they do not have the
authority to establish the
00:48:13.15\00:48:16.95
criteria for those ordinations.
00:48:16.98\00:48:19.74
In other words, the Central
California Conference can send
00:48:19.78\00:48:23.68
some names to the Union of
pastors that they want ordained,
00:48:23.71\00:48:27.58
and the Union approves
the ordinations, but the Union
00:48:27.62\00:48:31.79
cannot create the
criteria for ordination.
00:48:31.82\00:48:35.19
The criteria is established
by the world church in
00:48:35.22\00:48:38.51
General Conference Session,
which means that the Pacific
00:48:38.55\00:48:43.57
Union has to abide by the
criteria that is established.
00:48:43.61\00:48:48.60
And one of those criteria is
that the elder, or the minister
00:48:48.64\00:48:56.31
must be the husband of one wife.
00:48:56.35\00:49:00.58
And so the Union can't approve
the names that are sent by the
00:49:00.61\00:49:05.30
Conference, but they cannot
approve names of women because
00:49:05.33\00:49:09.66
it goes against the policies
of the General Conference,
00:49:09.70\00:49:14.03
and the Division, and, by
the way, of the Union itself.
00:49:14.06\00:49:18.36
And so we've covered a
lot of ground this evening.
00:49:18.40\00:49:23.90
I just wanted to give you a
birds eye view of all of the
00:49:23.94\00:49:28.13
different arguments
that are being used.
00:49:28.16\00:49:30.77
And as we examine these
arguments it becomes very, very
00:49:30.81\00:49:36.36
clear, at least in my mind, that
these arguments that are offered
00:49:36.39\00:49:40.99
are far from conclusive.
00:49:41.02\00:49:43.56
In fact many of them are
based on faulty reasoning.
00:49:43.59\00:49:47.42
They're based on faulty study
of Scripture, looking only at
00:49:47.46\00:49:52.58
partial evidence, redefining
words, injecting context that
00:49:52.61\00:49:57.70
are not there, ignoring
context that are found there.
00:49:57.73\00:50:01.57
I'd like to read, once again,
the statement that I began with
00:50:01.60\00:50:07.01
in Counsels to
Writers and Editors, page 40.
00:50:07.04\00:50:26.87
We have to be careful
that we don't use arguments
00:50:26.90\00:50:30.85
that aren't wholly sound.
00:50:30.88\00:50:31.91
What does that mean?
00:50:31.94\00:50:32.97
That means that when an
argument is brought forth
00:50:33.00\00:50:36.05
we have to examine
it from every angle.
00:50:36.08\00:50:38.45
We have to look at the context.
00:50:38.49\00:50:40.52
We have to look at
the broader context.
00:50:40.56\00:50:41.98
We have to look at what the
Spirit of Prophecy had to say.
00:50:42.01\00:50:44.42
It would be helpful to
look at what others have
00:50:44.45\00:50:46.53
said about that text.
00:50:46.56\00:50:47.63
Cover all of the
bases. Ask questions.
00:50:47.66\00:50:50.34
Find avenues that perhaps might
contradict the understanding
00:50:50.38\00:50:55.09
that we've got from that text.
00:50:55.12\00:50:56.65
In other words we
have to be like lawyers
00:50:56.68\00:50:58.89
in the study of
Scripture, like attorneys.
00:50:58.93\00:51:01.10
You know when attorneys are
preparing a case to take before
00:51:01.14\00:51:04.29
a court of law, they are
already anticipating all of the
00:51:04.32\00:51:07.41
objections that are going to be
brought by the other attorneys.
00:51:07.44\00:51:10.55
They want to
present an ironclad case.
00:51:10.59\00:51:14.36
They research, they scrutinize,
they look for all of the
00:51:14.40\00:51:17.23
evidence so that
there are no loose ends.
00:51:17.26\00:51:19.85
That's what Ellen White says
that we must do. Once again:
00:51:19.89\00:51:24.25
At least for the time being.
00:51:40.87\00:51:43.76
You know, we can make an
opposer look kind of foolish.
00:51:43.79\00:51:46.45
But then she continues saying:
00:51:46.49\00:51:49.55
You know, Ellen White says in
the last days God's people will
00:52:14.04\00:52:19.38
be brought before tribunals,
before the great men of the
00:52:19.42\00:52:23.19
earth to present the
evidences of their faith.
00:52:23.23\00:52:27.67
She says that the
great men of the earth will
00:52:27.70\00:52:32.11
examine our arguments.
00:52:32.14\00:52:33.39
She has even a statement where
she says that the great men of
00:52:33.43\00:52:37.92
the earth will question every
single statement that we make.
00:52:37.95\00:52:42.41
Which means that when we
are studying these matters,
00:52:42.45\00:52:48.37
we must have an ironclad case
where there are no loose ends;
00:52:48.41\00:52:53.98
where there's no way out.
00:52:54.01\00:52:55.69
We must know, for example,
the arguments that are made
00:52:55.73\00:53:00.45
regarding the Sabbath.
00:53:00.49\00:53:01.58
You know, we usually just
argue for the Sabbath the way
00:53:01.62\00:53:07.84
that evangelists do.
00:53:08.32\00:53:09.35
We use the same
texts over and over again.
00:53:09.38\00:53:11.03
But there are some questions
that people ask that perhaps
00:53:11.07\00:53:15.08
we haven't taken
a closer look at.
00:53:15.11\00:53:16.78
Like, for example, you
know I have a series that
00:53:16.82\00:53:21.94
I did on the Sabbath.
00:53:21.98\00:53:23.01
I don't know whether
you've noticed in Genesis,
00:53:23.04\00:53:25.53
but one argument that is brought
out by one of the prime enemies
00:53:25.56\00:53:29.72
of the Adventist Church,
who used to be a Seventh-day
00:53:29.76\00:53:32.90
Adventist, he says, Look,
in Genesis there's no statement
00:53:32.94\00:53:36.05
whatsoever that says that
God commanded Adam and Eve
00:53:36.08\00:53:39.62
to keep the Sabbath.
00:53:39.65\00:53:40.68
It says that God
rested the seventh day.
00:53:40.71\00:53:44.75
It doesn't say that God
commanded Adam and Eve to rest.
00:53:44.78\00:53:48.43
And, furthermore, they say,
and you know the word for rest
00:53:48.47\00:53:52.58
in Exodus 20 is different than
the word for rest in Genesis.
00:53:52.62\00:53:56.70
So why the change of the
word from Shabbat in Genesis,
00:53:56.73\00:54:04.25
to nuah in Exodus 20?
00:54:04.28\00:54:07.00
And so they say, See, in Genesis
the Sabbath wasn't made for man,
00:54:07.04\00:54:13.25
the Sabbath was
actually God's rest.
00:54:13.28\00:54:16.43
Another argument that is used
is in Genesis it says that every
00:54:16.47\00:54:21.13
day of the week had an evening
and morning, but it doesn't say
00:54:21.17\00:54:25.80
there was the evening and
the morning of the seventh day.
00:54:25.83\00:54:28.83
And so the argument is because
it doesn't say that was an
00:54:28.86\00:54:31.82
evening and
morning of the seventh day,
00:54:31.85\00:54:33.62
God's rest is
open to us every day.
00:54:33.65\00:54:35.38
And it sounds pretty logical.
00:54:35.42\00:54:37.93
It sounds reasonable.
00:54:37.97\00:54:39.00
Do we have
answers to these things?
00:54:39.03\00:54:40.86
You know, some day we will
have to stand before kings,
00:54:40.89\00:54:44.59
and rulers to give a
reason for our faith.
00:54:44.62\00:54:46.64
If we can't get the issue
of women's ordination right,
00:54:46.68\00:54:50.41
what makes us think that we're
going to be able to stand before
00:54:50.45\00:54:53.44
kings, and rulers, and
the great men of the earth,
00:54:53.48\00:54:56.27
to answer concerning the
great things that we find
00:54:56.31\00:54:59.07
in God's Holy Word?
00:54:59.10\00:55:00.32
We must go to Scripture.
00:55:00.35\00:55:02.34
Scripture must be our authority.
00:55:02.38\00:55:04.88
And that's why in this symposium
I have underlined to all of the
00:55:04.92\00:55:09.09
speakers that we need to
base what we are saying on
00:55:09.13\00:55:14.25
a thus saith the Lord.
00:55:14.28\00:55:16.21
We must base our doctrine
and our practice only upon
00:55:16.25\00:55:20.73
Scripture; not conjecture,
not the ideas of men,
00:55:20.76\00:55:25.74
not what commentaries say, not
even what the church has always
00:55:25.78\00:55:29.05
taught, but a
thus saith the Lord.
00:55:29.08\00:55:32.01
What does the Word of God say?
00:55:32.04\00:55:35.10
So I believe that we
have some exciting times
00:55:35.14\00:55:38.28
in the next three days.
00:55:38.31\00:55:39.56
It's going to be very intensive.
00:55:39.60\00:55:41.62
We're going to start
early in the morning,
00:55:41.66\00:55:43.78
and we're to end late at night.
00:55:43.82\00:55:45.13
We have about
fifteen presentations.
00:55:45.17\00:55:47.81
We have three panel discussions.
00:55:47.84\00:55:49.21
We have a town hall meeting
at the end where people will
00:55:49.25\00:55:52.10
be able to ask questions
live, and it's going to be a
00:55:52.21\00:55:56.35
marvelous experience.
00:55:56.38\00:55:57.41
I believe that for the weekend
we're probably going to have
00:55:57.44\00:56:00.85
this place pretty well packed.
00:56:00.89\00:56:02.33
And so you all had better
make sure that you come early
00:56:02.36\00:56:06.51
and get a prime spot, because
we're going to have standing
00:56:06.54\00:56:10.65
room only when it
comes to Friday and Sabbath.
00:56:10.69\00:56:13.42
I want to thank all of you
for being here for this meeting.
00:56:13.45\00:56:16.99
I trust that what we've studied
has been useful and beneficial
00:56:17.03\00:56:20.56
in setting the stage
for everything that's
00:56:20.60\00:56:22.62
going to be discussed.
00:56:22.65\00:56:23.68
Before we bring this to and end,
I would like to ask the Lord
00:56:23.71\00:56:27.04
to be with us, and
to bless our symposium.
00:56:27.07\00:56:29.86
So lets bow our
heads for a word of prayer.
00:56:29.89\00:56:32.61
Father in heaven, we come before
You this evening to thank You
00:56:32.65\00:56:37.71
for Your Holy Word.
00:56:37.74\00:56:38.77
What a terrible thing it would
be to live in this world without
00:56:38.80\00:56:44.03
any guidance whatsoever.
00:56:44.07\00:56:46.28
The world is so confused.
00:56:46.31\00:56:48.45
It is truly Babylon, as
it's described in Scripture.
00:56:48.49\00:56:51.88
People don't know where to turn.
00:56:51.92\00:56:54.14
They don't know what's
truth, and what is error.
00:56:54.17\00:56:57.33
But You have left Your Word
as a sure guide in this world.
00:56:57.36\00:57:01.66
We thank You, Father for that
Word that You have given to us.
00:57:01.69\00:57:05.96
Father we want to be
servants of the Word.
00:57:05.99\00:57:08.29
We want to be like Samuel.
00:57:08.32\00:57:10.17
We want to say, Speak
Lord, for Your servant heareth.
00:57:10.20\00:57:13.36
We want to obey what
You say in Your Holy Word.
00:57:13.40\00:57:16.84
We don't want to look for
excuses to be disobedient.
00:57:16.87\00:57:20.22
Father I ask that You will bless
this symposium that the next
00:57:20.26\00:57:24.18
three days might be a mountain
top experience for all of us.
00:57:24.22\00:57:28.11
I ask Lord that you will
bless all of the speakers.
00:57:28.15\00:57:31.45
That You will give them wisdom
from on high to speak words
00:57:31.48\00:57:36.21
from Your Holy Word that
will burn within our hearts.
00:57:36.25\00:57:40.00
I ask, Lord, that You will bless
also all of those who will be
00:57:40.04\00:57:44.09
tuning in by internet,
by You-Tube, people who will
00:57:44.12\00:57:47.82
eventually watch these
programs on television.
00:57:47.85\00:57:50.13
I ask, Father, that You
will give people open minds
00:57:50.16\00:57:53.22
and hearts to receive Your Word
as we find it written in that
00:57:53.25\00:57:58.16
book that You
inspired so many ages ago.
00:57:58.20\00:58:01.49
We thank You Father for
the promise of Your presence.
00:58:01.52\00:58:04.70
And we thank You Lord for
hearing our prayer this evening,
00:58:04.73\00:58:07.87
for we ask it in the
precious name of Your
00:58:07.91\00:58:10.80
beloved Son Jesus, Amen.
00:58:10.84\00:58:13.22