Participants: Stephen Bohr
Series Code: WOHII
Program Code: WOHII000000A
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00:15 As undoubtedly our viewers know, there's been an intense
00:19 discussion in the Seventh-day Adventist Church at the present 00:23 time on the issue of women's ordination 00:26 to pastoral leadership. 00:27 Secrets Unsealed has taken a clear position. 00:31 We believe in women in ministry in many and various ministries 00:37 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 00:38 but at the same time we do not believe that women should be 00:42 ordained to pastoral leadership. 00:44 Secrets Unsealed has felt that this subject is so important 00:48 to the Church that in October of last year we got together 00:53 a group of scholars that belonged to group number one 00:57 of the Theology of Ordination Study Committee. 01:00 We brought them into our studios and produced twenty-two hours 01:04 of programming dealing with different issues relating to 01:09 the topic of women's ordination. 01:11 It was a blessed experience. 01:14 Many different areas were covered. 01:16 This series is now available on DVD to anyone who requests it, 01:24 and all you need to pay for is the shipping. 01:27 We do ask, however, that you share these DVD's far and wide. 01:33 Now you've probably been watching a television program 01:37 at some point, and the program has reached a very intense and 01:41 important point, and suddenly across the screen comes: 01:45 We interrupt our regular programming for this 01:48 special announcement. 01:49 Well, Secrets Unsealed is going to do something similar to this. 01:53 As those who follow our programming on a regular basis 01:57 know, we have been broadcasting the series on Bible prophecy, 02:02 the Anchor series. 02:03 We feel that the issue of women's ordination is so 02:07 important that we are going to interrupt the regular flow 02:11 of the Prophecy Series, and we are going to broadcast most 02:16 of the symposium that was produced here last October. 02:19 As soon as we are finished with the broadcasting of the series 02:25 on women's ordination, we will return once again to the series 02:30 on Bible Prophecy. 02:32 I'd like to mention that the North American Division has used 02:36 all of its resources to share mainly one side of the issue, 02:41 and that is the side that is in favor of women's ordination. 02:46 Secrets Unsealed feels like the world needs to hear the other 02:51 side of the issue, or as Paul Harvey would say, 02:54 the rest of the story. 02:56 And so Secrets Unsealed has produced this symposium 03:00 in English, and I would like to say that we also produced 03:05 a shorter symposium in Spanish. 03:08 Let me show you, first of all, the symposium 03:10 that we did in English. 03:12 This is the set of the DVD's. 03:14 They're available to you free of charge. 03:17 All you have to do is pay for shipping, the actual shipping. 03:20 There's no handling charge. 03:21 And we will send them to you. 03:24 We do ask though that you share them far and wide, 03:27 like the leaves of autumn. 03:29 We also have a shorter series in Spanish. 03:31 We brought in three of the ablest Spanish speaking scholars 03:35 and dealt with many of the issues relating to 03:38 women's ordination in the Spanish language. 03:41 We also have available the small book that I wrote about 21/2 03:46 years ago, Reflections on Women's Ordination. 03:49 This small book covers all of the most basic issues 03:55 relating to women's ordination. 03:56 And it's available from Secrets Unsealed for a minimal cost. 04:01 Also we have a syllabus that I prepared for our 04:07 Secrets Unsealed Summit last year. 04:10 It's titled, In the Beginning, Returning to 04:14 God's Original Plan. 04:15 This syllabus that has almost 200 pages, covers many 04:21 of the issues relating to the roles of men and women 04:26 in the home, and in the church. 04:29 I'd like to mention that not only do we have this series, 04:34 these symposiums available on DVD, they're also available 04:40 on CD, and they're also available on MP3. 04:44 Now if you're a computer buff, if you send us an e-mail, 04:49 we will respond by sending you a link to download all of the 04:55 lectures in MP3 format. 04:58 Secrets Unsealed is determined to have everyone have the 05:04 opportunity to hear both sides of the issue, so that at the 05:09 General Conference Session the church can make 05:12 an informed decision. 05:14 I'd like to just mention in closing that Secrets Unsealed 05:20 will continue, I repeat again, to broadcast the prophecy series 05:26 as soon as we have finished broadcasting the topics 05:31 on women's ordination. 05:33 Let us pray that God will guide His church in this 05:37 important decision. 05:38 Well, we want to welcome everyone to the Secrets Unsealed 05:42 production studio. 05:44 We're glad to see you here today, and we have a lot of 05:48 material to cover, not only tonight, but also the next three 05:53 days that we're going to spend together. 05:55 I trust and hope that it's going to be very, very productive 05:58 for each one of us individually, and also for the 06:02 Seventh-day Adventist Church on a global scale. 06:04 I not only want to welcome everyone who is here 06:07 in the studio, but I also want to welcome everyone who is 06:10 watching the live streaming, and everyone who will watch 06:13 these presentations on You-Tube as well as later on 06:17 on television broadcast. 06:19 I believe that the first thing that we should do before 06:22 anything else is to ask the Lord's presence. 06:25 And so I invite you to bow your heads with me reverently 06:28 as we ask for the Lord's blessing. 06:30 Father in heaven, we come before You this evening thanking You 06:34 for the privilege of being here. 06:36 We realize that these are very, very important 06:39 times for Your church. 06:41 Many, many important decisions need to be made. 06:45 We just ask, Father, that You will help us to understand 06:47 that the best decisions that can be made will always be 06:51 based upon the foundation of Your Holy Word. 06:54 So we ask that You will be with us. 06:56 Be with all of those who are watching this on television, 06:59 or watching on You-Tube, and on live streaming. 07:02 We ask, Lord, that it will be a blessing, 07:04 and we ask for Your presence. 07:06 In the precious name of Jesus we pray, Amen. 07:11 Why has Secrets Unsealed decided to invest a considerable amount 07:21 of financial resources, as well as time to organize, 07:28 and to present this symposium? 07:31 There are basically three reasons why our ministry 07:35 has decided to do this symposium at this time. 07:39 First of all, Secrets Unsealed is a supporting ministry 07:44 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 07:46 And we feel like we need to do all in our power to uphold 07:51 the decisions that have been made by the world church, 07:55 by the Seventh-day Adventist world church. 07:57 Twice the world church decided in 1990 and 1995 not to approve 08:04 the ordination of women to pastoral ministry, 08:06 or pastoral leadership. 08:08 And so at Secrets Unsealed we believe that we should do 08:13 everything in our power to uphold the decisions that have 08:17 been made by the world church. 08:19 Secondly, we believe that the issues that were discussed 08:24 at the Theology of Ordination Study Committee should 08:27 become public knowledge. 08:29 We rather doubt that very many people out there 08:33 are going to sit in the pews and read the voluminous, 08:38 and technical theological treatises that were 08:42 presented at Tosk. 08:43 This would take hours and hours of arduous, 08:47 and difficult reading. 08:48 So what we've decided is to present what was given at Tosk 08:53 in a simple and easy to understand way, so that everyone 08:57 who is watching is able to understand the presentations 09:01 that were made at the Theology of Ordination Study Committee. 09:05 In the third place, it has been virtually impossible for us to 09:10 gain a communication outlet where we can share our 09:14 strongly held view that although we support women in ministry, 09:19 at the same time we are opposed to the ordination of women 09:23 to pastoral leadership. 09:25 The channels of communication of the denomination, 09:30 especially in North America, have been used to support 09:33 only one side of the issue, and are closed to any other view. 09:39 And so this has made it necessary for several supporting 09:43 ministries of the church, such as Secrets Unsealed, 09:45 to use their means of communication to share 09:50 the other side of the equation. 09:52 Now the question might come up, Doesn't a symposium like this 09:58 risk the possibility of polarization that creates 10:02 disunity in the church? 10:04 I would be the first to admit that this is a possibility. 10:09 But it is not the intent of those who are speaking at this 10:13 symposium to cause disunity in the church. 10:18 We firmly believe in the unity of the church, 10:22 but we believe that the unity of the church must be based 10:25 upon faithfulness to the Holy Scriptures. 10:28 We cannot just make up our minds that we're going to get along, 10:32 and we're going to agree to disagree. 10:34 We believe that this issue is of such monumental importance 10:39 to the church, especially its unity, and its mission, 10:43 as well as the method of interpreting Scripture 10:45 that we must bring this to the fore for everyone to understand. 10:51 Now those who do not support the ordination of women to pastoral 10:56 leadership have often been perceived and portrayed 11:00 as the party of No. 11:02 But we would rather be portrayed as the party of Yes. 11:06 Do we believe that women and men are of equal value, 11:11 status, and dignity? Yes. 11:14 Do we believe that the church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church 11:18 as a church, has failed to use women in the church 11:23 to their fullest potential? Yes. 11:25 Do we believe that there are some functions in the church 11:29 that women can fulfill better than men? Yes. 11:33 Do we believe that women can preach and teach? Yes. 11:37 Do we believe that God has a very special place for 11:41 women in ministry? Yes. 11:44 But do we believe that women should be ordained as local 11:48 elders, or to pastoral leadership? 11:51 From the beginning of time God says Yes, and then sometimes 11:58 qualifies it with a No. 11:59 Yes, you can eat from all of the trees in the garden, 12:03 but, No, you cannot eat from this specific one. 12:07 Is God a member of the party of No because He forbade Adam 12:13 and Eve from eating of one tree? 12:15 Is God a member of the party of No because He allows women to 12:21 occupy virtually every position that is open in the church 12:25 except that of elder or pastor? 12:28 I don't believe that we can say that God is a member 12:32 of the party of No. 12:33 God is a member of the party of Yes. 12:36 Now the purpose of a keynote address is to set the tone 12:42 for the entire discussion that's going to take place 12:44 in the next three days. 12:46 I will therefore bring several issues to the fore, 12:51 and then offer a few brief remarks about each one. 12:56 The speakers that will be with us in the next three days 13:00 will then, along with the panel discussions, deal with many 13:05 of the things that I am going to bring up much more 13:08 extensively and exhaustively. 13:11 I would like to begin my remarks with a wise quotation from 13:17 the pen of Ellen White. 13:19 In the book, Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 40, 13:24 Ellen White had this to say: 14:01 So in this symposium we are going to do our utmost to 14:05 present Biblical material, Biblical answers to questions. 14:10 We are going to provide answers that have been looked at from 14:15 many different angles. 14:16 And we trust that what we present will be seen not only 14:21 as logical, but as Biblical in its foundation. 14:26 Now I'm going to share with you several of the issues that are 14:31 involved in the discussion on women's ordination. 14:34 And then, as I mentioned, I'm going to provide a very brief 14:38 response to these. 14:40 Now I have several of them; actually I have forty. 14:44 And you're saying, Are you ever going to be able to finish? 14:47 Well, I'm hoping that I will be able to finish, 14:50 but these are, what I believe, the most significant issues 14:54 regarding the matter of the ordination of women. 14:57 The first that I would like to mention is that some state that 15:03 the Bible neither approves, nor forbids the ordination of women. 15:09 Now this might be technically true, but as you examine 15:14 Scriptures you find constantly a male pattern of leadership 15:21 that has been established by God. 15:22 I want to share with you all of those indications in Scripture 15:27 of male leadership according to God's plan. 15:30 I believe that John Peters will show that Adam was given 15:35 the leadership role at creation. 15:38 After sin the firstborn males were the spiritual leaders 15:43 of each household. 15:45 When God established Israel He chose twelve males as the 15:50 founders of the tribes. 15:51 The regional leaders that were established in the days of 15:55 Moses, which were the thousands, the hundreds, the fifties, 15:58 and the tens, were all male. 16:00 The seventy elders that were chosen by Moses, 16:04 which was kind of like a General Conference Executive Committee 16:07 of that time, was all composed of males. 16:10 All of the priests of the Old Testament were males. 16:14 All of the Levites, which would be equivalent, I believe, 16:17 to the deacons today; they took care of the temple, 16:19 and the offerings, and cleaning up and so on, which is the role 16:23 of the deacons today. 16:24 All of them were males. 16:25 Of the forty-two kings in the history of Israel and Judah, 16:30 all of them were males, with the exception of Athaliah, 16:33 who was a usurper. 16:35 The twelve apostles that Jesus established were all males. 16:39 The seventy that Jesus sent out were all males. 16:43 The successor of Judas was chosen from two males 16:48 that had been chosen from a larger pool of males. 16:51 The seven deacons were all males. 16:54 Paul and Barnabas, of course, were males. 16:57 The apostles and elders, who were delegates at the Jerusalem 17:01 Council, were all males. 17:03 Paul's criteria was that those who are leaders in the church, 17:09 the elders and the bishops, must be the husband of one wife. 17:13 And then you have, of course, Timothy and Titus that were 17:16 ordained as elders; both males. 17:19 There is not a single case in all of Scripture where a woman 17:22 was ordained as an elder, or as a pastor of a church. 17:28 And so as you look at the preponderance of the evidence 17:32 in Scripture, it becomes very clear that God's pattern 17:35 of leadership is males. 17:38 Ellen White has warned us about the dangers of doing 17:43 things that are not strictly forbidden in Scripture. 17:46 I read from the book, The Great Controversy, page 289, 17:49 where Ellen White explains about the Roman Catholic Church. 18:05 The argument that the Bible permits that for which it does 18:08 not forbid sends us down a very dangerous slippery slope. 18:14 Let's take just one example. 18:16 The historical evidence indicates that the early church 18:20 began celebrating sunrise services in commemoration 18:25 of the resurrection of Christ. 18:27 At first they did it on the yearly basis, and then they 18:30 started doing it on a weekly basis. 18:33 Now I have found no clear Biblical evidence that would say 18:37 that this is alright, or that this is forbidden. 18:40 And yet in a very short period of time what happened was 18:45 that the church enjoined the celebration of sunrise services 18:50 in honor of the resurrection, and came to forbid 18:54 the observance of the Holy Sabbath. 18:56 Just because the Bible does not forbid something, 19:00 does not mean that it's right. 19:01 The Bible does not forbid women's ordination explicitly, 19:06 but its unanimous testimony is that the practice is reserved 19:11 for qualified men. 19:12 There is not even one example in all of the Bible of a woman 19:16 who was ever ordained to any office. 19:20 Another argument that is used is that Hulda was a leader 19:25 in Israel, and therefore we should have women 19:28 leaders in the church today. 19:30 Now the important thing is that Hulda did provide 19:36 guidance to the king. 19:37 The king, by the way, was Josiah. 19:40 Now the king decided whether he would follow her counsel or not. 19:45 You see, Hulda was not the leader, 19:48 she was a counselor of the leader. 19:51 Hulda provided guidance to the king, but the king decided 19:57 whether he would follow her advice or not. 20:00 The important thing to remember here is that Hulda did not take 20:05 over the reins of leadership in Judah. 20:07 She did not take over the throne or the priesthood 20:11 to clean up the apostasy. 20:13 She was merely the messenger that God chose to encourage 20:18 Josiah to lead out in the needed reformation 20:21 in the kingdom of Judah. 20:23 Hulda did not clean up the mess. 20:26 It was Josiah, the elders, and the priests, as the leaders 20:31 of Judah who took her counsel to heart, 20:35 and led out in the necessary changes. 20:38 It was the king who ordered the elders of 20:42 Judah and Jerusalem. 20:43 The priests, the prophets, and all of the people came out 20:47 because the king told them to come out to renew the covenant. 20:51 It was the king who then commanded Hilkiah 20:54 to clean up the temple and the land from the paraphernalia 20:58 that had been used in the pagan cults, 21:01 and it was the king who commanded the unfaithful 21:04 priests to be slain, and it was the king who was extolled 21:08 by the Lord for being a faithful leader. 21:10 You can read the story. 21:11 The center of the story is the king. 21:14 The king is pulling all of the strings as the leader, 21:18 but Hulda is helping in the sense that she's providing 21:21 counsel as to how the leaders should proceed. 21:25 In this sense Hulda is very similar to a prophet 21:29 that existed recently, which is Ellen White. 21:33 Another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination 21:37 is the idea that because Deborah was a judge in Israel, 21:42 that women should be allowed to serve as pastors and elders 21:47 in the church today. 21:48 There's several factors that we need to take into mind when we 21:51 talk about Deborah. 21:53 First of all, Deborah served in a very chaotic period 21:58 of Israel's history. 21:59 The system of judges was not God's organizational ideal. 22:04 Furthermore, Ellen White makes it very clear that she served 22:09 in the absence of the usual magistrates. 22:12 She was an exceptional case, in other words. 22:15 It's interesting to notice that this did not set a precedent for 22:20 other women judges in Israel, and it did not come as a result 22:25 that you would have other women elected as judges regionally 22:30 according to the desires of the people. 22:32 Furthermore the Bible says that she judged private and civil 22:37 things, not at the gate like the usual judges would 22:41 do but under a tree. 22:43 You see, Deborah advised and encouraged the leader, Barak, 22:49 to summon and to lead the troops. 22:52 Barak was the one who summoned the troops. 22:54 He was the one who led the troops. 22:57 He was the one who pursued the enemy. 23:00 In other words, Deborah is serving as a prophet to 23:04 encourage the leader to do his job. 23:08 Furthermore, it's interesting to notice that later on Samuel 23:12 retold the story of what happened in the days of Deborah, 23:16 and he mentions Barak as the hero of the story, 23:19 and does not even mention Deborah. 23:22 That's found in 1 Samuel 12:11. 23:25 And when the book of Hebrews mentions this story, 23:30 it does not mention Deborah at all. 23:32 Once again, Hebrews 11:32 mentions Barak as the one 23:38 who delivered Israel. 23:39 And it's interesting that Deborah was not the one 23:43 who delivered Israel. 23:44 The one who really killed the king was a woman called Jael. 23:49 So all of these things clearly indicate that this was 23:52 an exceptional case. 23:54 She was playing the role more of a prophet than taking over 23:58 the reins of leadership in Israel. 24:01 Another argument that is brought up is concerning Junia. 24:07 Supposedly Junia was the first female apostle in history. 24:12 And I'm sure that Ingleswordka is going to talk a little 24:16 bit about Junia, but I'll just give you a 24:18 few interesting details. 24:20 First of all it's debatable whether the name Junia 24:23 is male or female. 24:24 Secondly it is inconclusive from the text whether Junia 24:29 was a well known apostle, or whether she was well 24:34 known to the apostles. 24:35 Adventists have always believed that clear texts must explain 24:41 the texts that are unclear. 24:43 In every other instance in the New Testament where you have 24:46 apostles named by name they are always males. 24:50 The twelve apostles were male. 24:53 The successor of Judas was male. 24:55 Paul and Barnabus were males, as well as all of the other ones 24:59 in the New Testament. 25:01 All of the other apostles that are mentioned by name were male. 25:04 And so the Biblical evidence seems to clearly indicate 25:08 that Junia was not an apostle. 25:11 Now some people say, Yeah, but what about Phoebe? 25:16 Phoebe was a deacon, and she occupied the identical office 25:21 as the deacons do in the church today. 25:24 But the fact is, when you look carefully at the evidence, 25:28 you discover that even though it's true that the word that is 25:32 used to describe Phoebe, diakonos, is used for the 25:35 office of a deacon. 25:37 It is also true that the word diakonos can mean simply 25:43 servant; someone who serves. 25:46 And it does not refer, most of the time in the New Testament, 25:49 to a church office. 25:51 It refers simply to the gift of service. 25:54 No place do we find in the New Testament that Phoebe was ever 26:00 ordained to be a deaconess by the laying on of hands. 26:04 Now we know from the evidence that there were deaconesses 26:08 in the early church. 26:09 But we also know that they were ordained by the bishop, 26:13 and they served under the leadership of the male deacons. 26:17 We also know that they served only the needs of the women 26:22 in the congregation. 26:23 And so it is uncertain that Phoebe was a deacon, 26:29 as is so firmly stated by many who believe in the 26:34 ordination of women. 26:35 But then comes Galatians 3:28, where the apostle Paul stated 26:42 that there is neither male or female. 26:44 And so, as the argument goes, both males and females can now 26:53 serve as elders and bishops, or overseers, 26:54 because there's no longer male nor female. 26:56 If this is true, why would the apostle Paul later on write 27:02 in Timothy and Titus that the elder, or the overseer, 27:06 must be the husband of one wife? 27:09 Is it possible then that what happened with Paul is that 27:12 at the beginning Paul was an egalitarian, in other words 27:16 he believed that males and females could both serve 27:19 as elders and bishops, and then a little later on in his ministry, 27:22 when he wrote 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, he said, No, no. 27:26 You know, I think that now, we need to 27:28 restrict it just to males. 27:30 Well the fact is, the Biblical evidence clearly shows that 27:33 Galatians 3:28 cannot mean that women can be elders 27:37 and overseers, because the apostle Paul later says, that 27:41 elders and overseers must be the husband of one wife. 27:46 Now there are four ways of looking at Galatians 3:28. 27:49 One way is when it says there's neither male nor female, 27:53 it means that there are no longer any biological 27:58 gender distinctions today. 28:00 Well, besides being physiologically untrue, 28:04 this would reverse the gender distinctions that God 28:08 established at creation. 28:10 Doesn't the Bible say that God created male and female? 28:12 Of course! Paul would then be overturning the creation order, 28:17 because God created a clear distinction between male and 28:20 female, so we eliminate possibility number one. 28:24 Possibility number two is that there are no longer any marital 28:29 gender distinctions. 28:30 But if this were true, Paul would once again be reversing 28:35 the creation order, because God established heterosexual 28:39 marriage at the beginning when He married male and female. 28:43 The third possibility is that there are no longer any role 28:48 distinctions in the home or in the church, 28:51 because there's no longer any male or female; 28:54 that their roles today, in other words, 28:56 are totally interchangeable. 28:59 If this were true Paul would once again be reversing 29:03 the creation order. 29:05 John Peters is going to show us that God established specific 29:10 roles for males and females in the garden of Eden before sin. 29:14 He established that the man should be the head. 29:16 He should be the leader, and the woman should submit 29:19 to the authority of the husband, or the man. 29:22 So if Paul meant that there are no longer any role distinctions, 29:26 once again, he would be going against the creation order 29:29 that God established at the very beginning. 29:32 The fourth option, I believe, is the correct one. 29:35 It's the idea that male and female have equal 29:38 access to salvation, and are equally members 29:43 of the family of God. 29:45 The context indicates that very clearly. 29:48 The context is speaking about the incorporation right. 29:51 It's speaking about baptism, the entrance into a relationship 29:56 with Christ, the entrance into the church. 29:59 The context of Galatians 3:28 clearly reveals that Paul is 30:04 describing the initiation right into the Christian life. 30:09 He was not dealing with church offices, particularly the church 30:14 offices of elder and bishop, which come much later on 30:18 in the Christian experience. 30:19 You know, one of the characteristics that is given 30:22 in the list that the apostle Paul gives in 1 Timothy 30:26 and Titus, is that the one who occupies the office of 30:29 bishop or elder must not be a neophyte. 30:33 In other words, must not be a new believer. 30:37 So how could someone, Galatians 3:28, who has just 30:41 been baptized and joined Christ; how could that mean that that 30:45 person now can serve as a bishop or as an elder of the church? 30:49 It doesn't fit the context. 30:51 Another argument that is used frequently is that it is certain 30:56 that in our Western culture it is required that we be 31:00 absolutely egalitarian in our ordination practices. 31:03 Society might consider us sexist if we ordain only males. 31:09 So in order to reach culture, we must be 31:13 sensitive to its desires. 31:15 But I must underline that our standard is not what society 31:21 wants, our standard is what the word of God prescribes. 31:25 Society also strongly pushes for gay marriage, and for evolution. 31:31 Should we then change our views on marriage and creation 31:36 to adjust to the demands of culture? 31:39 Should we fear the embarrassment of being called fundamentalists, 31:45 obscurantist's, and stone age Christians because we still 31:49 uphold traditional marriage, a literal seven day creation, 31:54 and proper leadership roles within the home and the church? 31:58 Absolutely not! We must uphold the absolute authority 32:03 of Scripture at the risk of ridicule, 32:06 and even of persecution. 32:08 This is no time to give in to peer pressure that would lower 32:13 the standard that God gives us in Holy Scripture. 32:16 Ellen White in the book, Fundamentals of Christian 32:20 Education, page 289, had this to say: 32:35 She also calls it present truth. 32:38 And she calls it the truth for this time. So she says: 33:02 Listen if we say, Well, we need to ordain women. 33:04 That way we'll have more influence. 33:06 Listen to what she says: 33:29 Listen carefully now. 33:44 And so if we think that we need to please the world 33:47 so that the world doesn't consider us odd, 33:49 we're going down the wrong road. 33:51 Another argument that is used is that in the Old Testament 33:55 it is certain that there were male priests, but under the new 33:59 covenant now we have the priesthood of all believers. 34:03 And that means that both males and females can serve as 34:08 pastors and elders. 34:09 But those who argue in this manner many times fail 34:14 to realize that the priesthood of all believers already existed 34:17 in the Old Testament. 34:19 According to Exodus 19:5, 6 God called all Israel 34:25 to be a priesthood to share the gospel with the nations. 34:29 But in the same chapter we're told that God chose males from 34:33 the house of Aaron to occupy the specialized office of priest. 34:38 And so all of Israel was a priesthood, but God chose males 34:42 from the house of Aaron to be the spiritual leaders in Israel. 34:47 In the same manner God has called all Christians 34:51 to be a holy priesthood, to proclaim as it says in 1 Peter, 34:55 the praises of Him who called them out of darkness 34:58 into His marvelous light. 34:59 But this does not eliminate the fact that the spiritual leaders 35:03 of the church must be the husbands of one wife. 35:07 Another argument that is used in favor of women's ordination 35:12 is the idea that Ellen White was ordained, and that she was 35:16 issued ministerial credentials. 35:18 This myth has been passed along as gospel truth by many of those 35:25 who favor women's ordination. 35:27 The evidence provided in this symposium, 35:30 particularly on Sabbath morning, will clearly and irrefutably 35:35 reveal that Ellen White was never ordained 35:37 by the laying on of human hands, even though she did receive 35:42 an honorary ministerial credential for several years, 35:46 but on one of those credentials the word ordained is crossed 35:50 off, because Ellen White was never ordained 35:53 by the laying on of hands. 35:56 Another argument that is used is that the word head 36:02 does not really mean head. 36:05 That the word head in the New Testament actually 36:08 means source or origin. 36:11 The interesting thing is I checked out all of the Bible 36:14 versions, and the word kephale in the New Testament 36:18 is always translated head. 36:21 It is used seventy-seven times in the New Testament, 36:25 according to what I was able to determine, 36:27 and not once is it translated source or origin. 36:31 It simply means head. 36:34 Nowhere do you find in the New Testament a variant 36:39 meaning of this word. 36:41 It's true that once in a blue moon, 36:43 in classical extra-Biblical literature you might have a 36:47 reference to the word kephale, meaning source or origin, 36:52 but that meaning is alien to Holy Scripture. 36:56 Another argument that is used is that the expression, 37:01 husband of one wife, really means faithful to your spouse. 37:07 You see, that's very gender inclusive. 37:10 And others even say that a better 37:12 translation is one woman man, of course, to get rid of 37:18 the gender specification. 37:20 But it bears noting that the vast majority of Bible versions 37:25 dispute those renderings. 37:27 Not a single version that I was able to find 37:30 translates one woman man. 37:32 And only a handful of less popular versions translate 37:37 faithful to their spouse. 37:40 It bares noting that the words husband and wife are very gender 37:46 specific there in 1 Timothy and Titus. 37:50 The words gynae are used, and the word aner is used. 37:55 Aner means husband or man, and gynae means wife. 38:01 They are the identical words that are used, for example, 38:04 in Ephesians 5:25 where it says, Husbands love your wives. 38:07 Would it be proper to translate men love your women? No! 38:10 It means husbands love your wives. 38:12 In other words it's very, very gender specific. 38:16 When Paul says that the elder of the bishop must be the 38:19 husband of one wife, he means exactly that: 38:23 The husband of one wife. He must be male. 38:26 Now another argument that is used is the idea that when Paul 38:31 said that he would not allow a woman to teach, 38:36 or to exercise authority over the man, because the man was 38:41 created first and then the woman,... 38:42 You know, those who favor women's ordination come up with 38:45 the idea that there was this Ephesian heresy that was being 38:48 taught by the women in the the church of Ephesus, 38:51 to whom Paul is writing here, that Eve had been created 38:56 first and then Adam. 38:57 And the apostle Paul is simply setting them straight that 39:02 actually Adam was created first, and then the woman. 39:05 The fact is, folks, that it's not necessary to inject into 39:09 Scripture a historical context that even reputable 39:13 historians have questioned. 39:14 There's no evidence in the text that this heresy was being 39:18 taught by the women from Ephesus. 39:21 It is injecting an argument into Scripture that is not 39:25 found in Scripture. 39:26 That is called, by the way, eisogesis. 39:29 Wouldn't it be much better simply to take what the apostle 39:33 Paul says at face value, and go all the way back to Genesis 39:37 and say that it is significant that the man was created first, 39:41 and then woman, and that the woman came from man, 39:44 and not man from the woman, and leave it at that? 39:47 And simply take Paul's argument as it is found in Scripture, 39:51 instead of injecting an artificial 39:53 context into Scripture? 39:55 Now some people say, Well, the idea of male headship is a 40:01 negative thing that only comes in after sin 40:05 came into the world. 40:07 But the question is, if male headship or leadership is a bad 40:13 thing, how do we explain Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 11:3, 40:19 where the apostle Paul says that God the Father is 40:22 the head of Christ. 40:24 Is that a bad thing? Obviously not! 40:27 He also says that Christ is the head of the man. 40:31 Is that a bad thing? 40:32 That certainly would not be a bad thing, 40:35 but when it comes to the point of saying that the man 40:37 is the head of the woman, that is a bad thing. 40:40 That's what they're saying! 40:42 But the headship is not in itself a bad thing. 40:47 Is it a bad thing that Christ is the head of the church? 40:50 Absolutely not! Is it actually bad for the physical head 40:55 to exercise loving lordship over the body? 40:58 Do the physical head and body have an egletarian relationship? 41:03 Now the head and the body both mutually need 41:07 each other, don't they? 41:08 But should the body exercise authority over the head, 41:12 or should the body submit to the loving authority of the head? 41:17 You see, the head is a good thing, because the head loves 41:22 the body and wants the body to function well. 41:24 The head needs the body, but the body definitely needs the head. 41:30 Another idea that comes up is that the idea of male headship 41:36 gives people the idea that this means that women are to be 41:41 subservient to men, and they should be oppressed by men. 41:45 That's the way that they look at headship. 41:48 And I know that Engel is going to be dealing a lot with 41:51 headship in the New Testament. 41:53 That is a wrong caricature of what real headship is. 41:58 You see, headship is not something bad. 42:02 Is it bad that God the Father is the head of Christ? 42:05 Absolutely not! Is it bad that Christ is the head over the man? 42:09 Absolutely not! You see, the word head, and the word headship 42:15 are not necessarily bad in themselves. 42:18 Another argument that came up recently, which was brought out 42:22 by the Andrews University Theological Seminary, 42:25 they came out with a statement that Christ is the only head 42:28 of the church, and therefore there can be no male leaders 42:32 in the church that are heads at all. 42:34 In fact, they stated that if we teach that there are heads 42:38 in the church under the headship of Christ, 42:41 that that is equivalent to the Roman Catholic heresy 42:44 of the Pope being the head of the church. 42:48 Now at Tosk there were three groups. 42:51 There was group number one that believed that women should not 42:55 be ordained as pastoral leaders in the church. 42:59 There was group number two that believed that women should be 43:04 ordained, because the roles of men and women are identical. 43:08 And then there was group number three that believed that we 43:12 should allow for the ordination of women, even though God's 43:16 plan originally at creation was for male leadership in the home, 43:20 and in the church. 43:21 Now let's talk a little bit about this idea of headship. 43:26 In the Old Testament Moses was the head of Israel under 43:31 the unique headship of Jesus Christ. 43:34 In fact, under Moses there were also heads. 43:38 Notice Exodus 18:25. 43:41 You remember that Moses established leaders of 43:44 thousands, and hundreds, and fifty's, and ten's? 43:48 You know, it's interesting as you really look at this that 43:52 it is reflected very closely to the system of organization 43:58 of the Adventist church. 43:59 You know, many people don't think of the organization of 44:02 Israel as being a representative style of governance. 44:05 You know, they think that God spoke to Moses, and then Moses 44:08 imposed everything on the people. 44:09 No, Israel had a representative style of government. 44:12 And you say, How is that? 44:14 Well, Moses would be equivalent to the 44:16 General Conference president. 44:18 The leaders of the tribes would be equivalent to the divisions. 44:24 The thousands would be equivalent to the unions. 44:27 The hundreds would be equivalent to the conferences. 44:31 The fifties would be equivalent, maybe, to the mission. 44:34 And the tens would be equivalent to the local church. 44:38 And the priests would be equivalent to the pastors. 44:40 And the deacons would be the Levites. 44:43 You know, there's a strong argument that you could use to 44:46 show that even though our terminology is different, 44:48 the organization of Israel was very similar to the organization 44:52 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 44:53 And Ellen White said that the organization of Israel was a 44:57 perfect organization. 44:59 Now in Exodus 18:25, we're told about those who worked under 45:03 Moses: the leaders of thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. 45:06 Listen to how the word head is used, and also rule. 45:11 It says there: 45:17 What? heads. Oh, there's that nasty little word. 45:26 Ah notice, the heads are what? 45:35 And it's interesting in, Testimonies to Ministers, 45:38 page 341, Ellen White, speaking about this text says: 45:50 In the book, Confrontation, page 25, Ellen White makes 45:54 this interesting comment. She says: 46:05 And so there was a visible leader, which was Moses, 46:08 under the leadership of the invisible leader, 46:12 which was Jesus Christ. 46:13 I'd like to read a couple of interesting statements from 46:18 Ellen White on the role of the leaders in the 46:23 Seventh-day Adventist Church, the pastoral leaders. 46:26 The first of these statements is found in Acts of the Apostles, 46:28 page 122. And there's a specific phrase that I want us to notice. 46:33 It is the phrase, In His stead. 46:36 That means, by the way, instead. 46:42 Now listen carefully. 47:13 That's Acts of the Apostles, 360. 47:16 Now I'm going to read Acts of the Apostles, 122. 47:18 She's speaking about Ananias. 47:20 Remember when Ananias laid his hands upon Saul? 47:23 Ellen White makes this comment: 48:04 But this is my favorite: Gospel Workers, page 11. She says: 48:20 She calls them delegates. 49:06 So there is the Great Shepherd and the under shepherds; 49:10 The Great Head and those who are heads under the Great Head. 49:15 She continues saying: 49:47 That's interesting. 50:08 How could it be more explicit? 50:10 By the way, the difference between head and leader is 50:15 a matter of semantics. 50:16 The word headship is disliked for no other reason than 50:20 the fact that it is a strong word: headship. 50:24 But headship basically means leadership. 50:27 You know, I looked up the meaning of the word head 50:31 in Webster's 1828 edition, which is probably the one that 50:34 Ellen White would have used, and it has this definition: 50:37 head: to lead, to direct, to act as leader. 50:43 So to distinguish between head and leader 50:47 is an artificial distinction. 50:49 Another argument that is used is that according to the Bible, 50:52 many women served as prophets. 50:55 If a woman can be a prophet, why can't she be 50:59 an elder or a pastor? 51:00 After all, isn't the office of prophet of higher rank 51:05 than the office of pastor? 51:07 Not according to Ellen White. 51:10 In the book, Volume 6, of the Testimonies, page 411, 51:15 Ellen White had this to say: 51:35 And now listen: 51:51 So this idea that the rank of prophet is up here, 51:54 and the gift of pastor is way down here, so if Ellen White 51:57 could be a prophet, you know, why can't women be elders 52:01 and pastors of the church simply does not hold water. 52:05 You see, the gift of prophecy is a Spiritual gift 52:08 that is given by God without regard to gender. 52:11 There were many women prophets in Scripture. 52:14 However, the role of prophet must not be mingled or mixed 52:18 with the role of elder or pastor. 52:20 They are two different things. 52:23 The Bible allows for gender inclusiveness when it comes to 52:27 prophets, but it does not allow for gender inclusiveness 52:31 when it comes to elders and pastors of the church. 52:35 Some people say, but Ellen White was the leader of the 52:38 Seventh-day Adventist denomination. 52:40 So why can't women be leaders of the church today? 52:44 Well, the fact is folks that Ellen White fulfilled the same 52:48 role that was fulfilled, for example, by Hulda and Deborah. 52:51 She delivered messages from God to the leaders, 52:55 she corrected the leaders, she encouraged the leaders 52:59 of the church when they were discouraged, 53:01 but she never took over the reins of leadership at any level 53:05 in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. 53:07 She never occupied a position as pastor all the way up to 53:11 General Conference president. 53:12 She was not called Pastor Ellen, or Elder White. 53:16 She was called Sister White. 53:18 Ellen White herself said, in Volume 8 of the Testimonies, 53:22 pages 236 and 237: 53:32 Listen carefully. 53:43 Now notice the process: 54:04 That's the way that we do our elections. She says: 54:18 Listen carefully. 54:27 That is when the work was just starting. 54:42 So Ellen White herself says that she wasn't a 54:44 leader of this people. 54:45 Ellen White was a counselor. 54:48 She encouraged, she corrected just like Hulda and Deborah did, 54:52 and all of the Biblical prophets. 54:54 But she did not take over the leadership roles. 54:57 But she helped the leaders in the process. 55:00 Another argument that is used is that 1 Corinthians 11:3-15 55:08 is a cultural thing that applied only to the times 55:11 of the apostle Paul. 55:12 You see, because it says there that women should wear a veil, 55:17 and we don't have women wear veils anymore in the church. 55:20 So they say, See that was just a custom of the time. 55:23 But we need to understand that even though the wearing of the 55:28 veil was a custom of the time, there was a principle behind it, 55:32 and the principle does not vary or change. 55:35 The principle is male headship. 55:37 The way of announcing it publicly, and manifesting it 55:41 publicly, was that the woman wore the veil recognizing her 55:44 submission to male authority. 55:47 In other words, the submission of the woman to male authority 55:51 is timeless, although the way of manifesting the principle 55:56 varies from culture to culture. 55:58 Let me give you an illustration. 56:00 A few years ago I went to the home of one of the individuals 56:05 of a church that I visited, and I noticed that there was a stack 56:11 of books on a table there, and under all of the 56:15 books was a Bible. 56:16 Now we all know that the proper place to put the Bible is always 56:20 on top of all the other books, right? 56:22 There's no other way of doing it. 56:23 That's the way we have to do it. 56:25 You put it on top. 56:26 And so I was bothered. 56:27 And I looked at that Bible at the bottom, and you know, 56:29 it was just eating me up. 56:31 So finally I said to him, I said, Listen, I need to know 56:35 why do you put the Bible under all of those books? 56:38 The Bible is supposed to be on top of all knowledge. 56:41 And he looked at me and he said, Well, that's true. 56:43 The Bible is on top of all knowledge, but it is also the 56:46 foundation of all knowledge. 56:48 Now what is the principle? 56:50 The principle is that the Bible is above all knowledge. 56:54 But the way in which that is expressed can vary 56:57 from culture to culture. 56:58 Are you with me or not? 56:59 And so the veil was the way of manifesting male headship 57:04 and female submission. 57:05 But it doesn't mean that 1 Corinthians 11 no longer 57:09 applies to us today. 57:11 Another argument that is used is that certain women 57:16 in Adventist history were ordained as pastors and elders. 57:22 Well, I can answer this very quickly. 57:24 There is no evidence whatsoever in the history of the Adventist 57:28 church that women were ever ordained or received 57:33 a ministerial credential until recent times. 57:37 Ellen White is the only woman in the history of the Adventist 57:41 church until recent times, who received 57:44 a ministerial credential. 57:46 Other women received ministerial licenses. 57:50 And I have some quotations where it clearly says that ministerial 57:55 credentials are given to ordain pastors. 57:57 Ministerial licenses are given to those who have not 58:01 yet been ordained. 58:03 There was a clear distinction. 58:04 Many women received ministerial licenses, but no women, 58:08 except Ellen White, received a ministerial credential. 58:12 And Ellen White received it more as an honorary thing. |
Revised 2015-03-31