As undoubtedly our viewers
know, there's been an intense
00:00:15.02\00:00:19.73
discussion in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church at the present
00:00:19.76\00:00:23.13
time on the issue
of women's ordination
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to pastoral leadership.
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Secrets Unsealed has
taken a clear position.
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We believe in women in ministry
in many and various ministries
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in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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but at the same time we do
not believe that women should be
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ordained to pastoral leadership.
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Secrets Unsealed has felt that
this subject is so important
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to the Church that in October
of last year we got together
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a group of scholars that
belonged to group number one
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of the Theology of
Ordination Study Committee.
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We brought them into our studios
and produced twenty-two hours
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of programming dealing with
different issues relating to
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the topic of women's ordination.
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It was a blessed experience.
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Many different
areas were covered.
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This series is now available on
DVD to anyone who requests it,
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and all you need to
pay for is the shipping.
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We do ask, however, that you
share these DVD's far and wide.
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Now you've probably been
watching a television program
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at some point, and the program
has reached a very intense and
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important point, and suddenly
across the screen comes:
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We interrupt our
regular programming for this
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special announcement.
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Well, Secrets Unsealed is going
to do something similar to this.
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As those who follow our
programming on a regular basis
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know, we have been broadcasting
the series on Bible prophecy,
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the Anchor series.
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We feel that the issue
of women's ordination is so
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important that we are going
to interrupt the regular flow
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of the Prophecy Series, and
we are going to broadcast most
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of the symposium that was
produced here last October.
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As soon as we are finished with
the broadcasting of the series
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on women's ordination, we will
return once again to the series
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on Bible Prophecy.
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I'd like to mention that the
North American Division has used
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all of its resources to share
mainly one side of the issue,
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and that is the side that is
in favor of women's ordination.
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Secrets Unsealed feels like the
world needs to hear the other
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side of the issue, or
as Paul Harvey would say,
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the rest of the story.
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And so Secrets Unsealed
has produced this symposium
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in English, and I would like
to say that we also produced
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a shorter symposium in Spanish.
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Let me show you,
first of all, the symposium
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that we did in English.
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This is the set of the DVD's.
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They're available
to you free of charge.
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All you have to do is pay for
shipping, the actual shipping.
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There's no handling charge.
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And we will send them to you.
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We do ask though that
you share them far and wide,
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like the leaves of autumn.
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We also have a
shorter series in Spanish.
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We brought in three of the
ablest Spanish speaking scholars
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and dealt with many
of the issues relating to
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women's ordination
in the Spanish language.
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We also have available the small
book that I wrote about 21/2
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years ago, Reflections
on Women's Ordination.
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This small book covers
all of the most basic issues
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relating to women's ordination.
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And it's available from Secrets
Unsealed for a minimal cost.
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Also we have a
syllabus that I prepared for our
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Secrets Unsealed
Summit last year.
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It's titled, In the
Beginning, Returning to
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God's Original Plan.
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This syllabus that has
almost 200 pages, covers many
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of the issues relating to
the roles of men and women
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in the home, and in the church.
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I'd like to mention that
not only do we have this series,
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these symposiums available
on DVD, they're also available
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on CD, and they're
also available on MP3.
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Now if you're a computer
buff, if you send us an e-mail,
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we will respond by sending you
a link to download all of the
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lectures in MP3 format.
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Secrets Unsealed is determined
to have everyone have the
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opportunity to hear both sides
of the issue, so that at the
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General Conference
Session the church can make
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an informed decision.
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I'd like to just mention in
closing that Secrets Unsealed
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will continue, I repeat again,
to broadcast the prophecy series
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as soon as we have
finished broadcasting the topics
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on women's ordination.
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Let us pray that God
will guide His church in this
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important decision.
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Well, we want to welcome
everyone to the Secrets Unsealed
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production studio.
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We're glad to see you here
today, and we have a lot of
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material to cover, not only
tonight, but also the next three
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days that we're
going to spend together.
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I trust and hope that it's going
to be very, very productive
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for each one of us
individually, and also for the
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Seventh-day Adventist
Church on a global scale.
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I not only want to
welcome everyone who is here
00:06:04.56\00:06:07.43
in the studio, but I also
want to welcome everyone who is
00:06:07.46\00:06:10.54
watching the live streaming,
and everyone who will watch
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these presentations on
You-Tube as well as later on
00:06:13.74\00:06:17.67
on television broadcast.
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I believe that the first
thing that we should do before
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anything else is to
ask the Lord's presence.
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And so I invite you to bow
your heads with me reverently
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as we ask for
the Lord's blessing.
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Father in heaven, we come before
You this evening thanking You
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for the privilege of being here.
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We realize that these
are very, very important
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times for Your church.
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Many, many important
decisions need to be made.
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We just ask, Father, that
You will help us to understand
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that the best decisions
that can be made will always be
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based upon the
foundation of Your Holy Word.
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So we ask that
You will be with us.
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Be with all of those who
are watching this on television,
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or watching on
You-Tube, and on live streaming.
00:06:59.73\00:07:02.19
We ask, Lord, that
it will be a blessing,
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and we ask for Your presence.
00:07:04.63\00:07:06.23
In the precious name
of Jesus we pray, Amen.
00:07:06.26\00:07:11.55
Why has Secrets Unsealed decided
to invest a considerable amount
00:07:11.58\00:07:21.06
of financial resources,
as well as time to organize,
00:07:21.09\00:07:28.45
and to present this symposium?
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There are basically
three reasons why our ministry
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has decided to do this
symposium at this time.
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First of all, Secrets Unsealed
is a supporting ministry
00:07:39.07\00:07:44.30
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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And we feel like we need to
do all in our power to uphold
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the decisions that have
been made by the world church,
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by the Seventh-day
Adventist world church.
00:07:55.35\00:07:57.74
Twice the world church decided
in 1990 and 1995 not to approve
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the ordination of
women to pastoral ministry,
00:08:04.20\00:08:06.57
or pastoral leadership.
00:08:06.60\00:08:08.21
And so at Secrets Unsealed
we believe that we should do
00:08:08.24\00:08:13.84
everything in our power to
uphold the decisions that have
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been made by the world church.
00:08:17.63\00:08:19.60
Secondly, we believe that
the issues that were discussed
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at the Theology of Ordination
Study Committee should
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become public knowledge.
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We rather doubt that
very many people out there
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are going to sit in the
pews and read the voluminous,
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and technical
theological treatises that were
00:08:38.78\00:08:41.72
presented at Tosk.
00:08:42.29\00:08:43.60
This would take
hours and hours of arduous,
00:08:43.63\00:08:47.38
and difficult reading.
00:08:47.41\00:08:48.62
So what we've decided is to
present what was given at Tosk
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in a simple and easy to
understand way, so that everyone
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who is watching is able to
understand the presentations
00:08:57.78\00:09:01.18
that were made at the Theology
of Ordination Study Committee.
00:09:01.21\00:09:05.02
In the third place, it has been
virtually impossible for us to
00:09:05.05\00:09:10.77
gain a communication
outlet where we can share our
00:09:10.80\00:09:14.96
strongly held view that although
we support women in ministry,
00:09:14.99\00:09:19.14
at the same time we are opposed
to the ordination of women
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to pastoral leadership.
00:09:23.56\00:09:25.78
The channels of communication
of the denomination,
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especially in North America,
have been used to support
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only one side of the issue, and
are closed to any other view.
00:09:33.85\00:09:39.38
And so this has made it
necessary for several supporting
00:09:39.41\00:09:43.10
ministries of the church,
such as Secrets Unsealed,
00:09:43.13\00:09:45.95
to use their means of
communication to share
00:09:45.98\00:09:50.17
the other side of the equation.
00:09:50.20\00:09:52.41
Now the question might come up,
Doesn't a symposium like this
00:09:52.44\00:09:58.06
risk the possibility of
polarization that creates
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disunity in the church?
00:10:02.68\00:10:04.27
I would be the first to admit
that this is a possibility.
00:10:04.30\00:10:09.56
But it is not the intent of
those who are speaking at this
00:10:09.59\00:10:13.93
symposium to cause
disunity in the church.
00:10:13.96\00:10:18.13
We firmly believe in
the unity of the church,
00:10:18.16\00:10:22.28
but we believe that the unity
of the church must be based
00:10:22.31\00:10:25.78
upon faithfulness
to the Holy Scriptures.
00:10:25.81\00:10:28.45
We cannot just make up our minds
that we're going to get along,
00:10:28.48\00:10:32.26
and we're going
to agree to disagree.
00:10:32.29\00:10:34.75
We believe that this issue
is of such monumental importance
00:10:34.78\00:10:39.17
to the church, especially
its unity, and its mission,
00:10:39.20\00:10:43.23
as well as the method
of interpreting Scripture
00:10:43.26\00:10:45.77
that we must bring this to the
fore for everyone to understand.
00:10:45.80\00:10:51.03
Now those who do not support the
ordination of women to pastoral
00:10:51.06\00:10:56.51
leadership have often
been perceived and portrayed
00:10:56.54\00:11:00.55
as the party of No.
00:11:00.58\00:11:02.85
But we would rather be
portrayed as the party of Yes.
00:11:02.88\00:11:06.40
Do we believe that women
and men are of equal value,
00:11:06.43\00:11:11.06
status, and dignity? Yes.
00:11:11.09\00:11:14.35
Do we believe that the church,
the Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:11:14.38\00:11:18.90
as a church, has failed
to use women in the church
00:11:18.93\00:11:23.23
to their fullest potential? Yes.
00:11:23.26\00:11:25.76
Do we believe that there
are some functions in the church
00:11:25.79\00:11:29.75
that women can
fulfill better than men? Yes.
00:11:29.78\00:11:33.24
Do we believe that women
can preach and teach? Yes.
00:11:33.27\00:11:37.49
Do we believe that God
has a very special place for
00:11:37.52\00:11:41.78
women in ministry? Yes.
00:11:41.81\00:11:44.46
But do we believe that women
should be ordained as local
00:11:44.49\00:11:48.38
elders, or to
pastoral leadership?
00:11:48.41\00:11:51.35
From the beginning of time
God says Yes, and then sometimes
00:11:51.38\00:11:58.10
qualifies it with a No.
00:11:58.13\00:11:59.69
Yes, you can eat from all
of the trees in the garden,
00:11:59.72\00:12:03.60
but, No, you cannot
eat from this specific one.
00:12:03.63\00:12:07.60
Is God a member of the party
of No because He forbade Adam
00:12:07.63\00:12:12.99
and Eve from eating of one tree?
00:12:13.02\00:12:15.33
Is God a member of the party
of No because He allows women to
00:12:15.36\00:12:21.09
occupy virtually every position
that is open in the church
00:12:21.12\00:12:25.11
except that of elder or pastor?
00:12:25.14\00:12:28.73
I don't believe that we
can say that God is a member
00:12:28.76\00:12:32.02
of the party of No.
00:12:32.05\00:12:33.15
God is a member
of the party of Yes.
00:12:33.18\00:12:36.29
Now the purpose of a keynote
address is to set the tone
00:12:36.32\00:12:42.25
for the entire discussion
that's going to take place
00:12:42.28\00:12:44.71
in the next three days.
00:12:44.74\00:12:46.17
I will therefore bring
several issues to the fore,
00:12:46.20\00:12:51.22
and then offer a few
brief remarks about each one.
00:12:51.25\00:12:56.20
The speakers that will be
with us in the next three days
00:12:56.23\00:13:00.62
will then, along with the panel
discussions, deal with many
00:13:00.65\00:13:05.63
of the things that I am
going to bring up much more
00:13:05.66\00:13:08.47
extensively and exhaustively.
00:13:08.50\00:13:11.40
I would like to begin my remarks
with a wise quotation from
00:13:11.43\00:13:17.32
the pen of Ellen White.
00:13:17.35\00:13:19.76
In the book, Counsels to
Writers and Editors, page 40,
00:13:19.79\00:13:24.04
Ellen White had this to say:
00:13:24.07\00:13:26.18
So in this symposium we
are going to do our utmost to
00:14:01.09\00:14:05.53
present Biblical material,
Biblical answers to questions.
00:14:05.56\00:14:10.90
We are going to provide answers
that have been looked at from
00:14:10.93\00:14:15.10
many different angles.
00:14:15.13\00:14:16.38
And we trust that what we
present will be seen not only
00:14:16.41\00:14:21.75
as logical, but as
Biblical in its foundation.
00:14:21.78\00:14:26.11
Now I'm going to share with you
several of the issues that are
00:14:26.14\00:14:31.35
involved in the discussion
on women's ordination.
00:14:31.47\00:14:34.49
And then, as I mentioned, I'm
going to provide a very brief
00:14:34.52\00:14:38.61
response to these.
00:14:38.64\00:14:40.33
Now I have several of
them; actually I have forty.
00:14:40.36\00:14:44.02
And you're saying, Are you
ever going to be able to finish?
00:14:44.05\00:14:47.52
Well, I'm hoping that
I will be able to finish,
00:14:47.55\00:14:50.35
but these are, what I believe,
the most significant issues
00:14:50.38\00:14:54.04
regarding the matter of
the ordination of women.
00:14:54.07\00:14:57.83
The first that I would like to
mention is that some state that
00:14:57.86\00:15:03.93
the Bible neither approves, nor
forbids the ordination of women.
00:15:03.96\00:15:09.68
Now this might be technically
true, but as you examine
00:15:09.71\00:15:14.75
Scriptures you find constantly
a male pattern of leadership
00:15:14.78\00:15:21.01
that has been
established by God.
00:15:21.04\00:15:22.70
I want to share with you all of
those indications in Scripture
00:15:22.73\00:15:27.55
of male leadership
according to God's plan.
00:15:27.58\00:15:30.41
I believe that John Peters
will show that Adam was given
00:15:30.44\00:15:35.58
the leadership role at creation.
00:15:35.61\00:15:38.32
After sin the firstborn
males were the spiritual leaders
00:15:38.35\00:15:43.62
of each household.
00:15:43.65\00:15:45.17
When God established Israel
He chose twelve males as the
00:15:45.20\00:15:50.03
founders of the tribes.
00:15:50.06\00:15:51.78
The regional leaders that
were established in the days of
00:15:51.81\00:15:55.05
Moses, which were the thousands,
the hundreds, the fifties,
00:15:55.08\00:15:58.16
and the tens, were all male.
00:15:58.19\00:16:00.57
The seventy elders
that were chosen by Moses,
00:16:00.60\00:16:03.99
which was kind of like a General
Conference Executive Committee
00:16:04.02\00:16:07.16
of that time, was
all composed of males.
00:16:07.19\00:16:10.42
All of the priests of
the Old Testament were males.
00:16:10.45\00:16:13.98
All of the Levites, which
would be equivalent, I believe,
00:16:14.01\00:16:16.98
to the deacons today;
they took care of the temple,
00:16:17.01\00:16:19.87
and the offerings, and cleaning
up and so on, which is the role
00:16:19.90\00:16:23.44
of the deacons today.
00:16:23.47\00:16:24.50
All of them were males.
00:16:24.53\00:16:25.65
Of the forty-two kings in
the history of Israel and Judah,
00:16:25.68\00:16:30.73
all of them were males,
with the exception of Athaliah,
00:16:30.76\00:16:33.88
who was a usurper.
00:16:33.92\00:16:35.20
The twelve apostles that Jesus
established were all males.
00:16:35.23\00:16:39.59
The seventy that Jesus
sent out were all males.
00:16:39.62\00:16:43.13
The successor of Judas
was chosen from two males
00:16:43.16\00:16:48.04
that had been chosen
from a larger pool of males.
00:16:48.07\00:16:51.70
The seven
deacons were all males.
00:16:51.73\00:16:54.69
Paul and Barnabas,
of course, were males.
00:16:54.72\00:16:57.58
The apostles and elders, who
were delegates at the Jerusalem
00:16:57.61\00:17:01.51
Council, were all males.
00:17:01.54\00:17:03.49
Paul's criteria was that those
who are leaders in the church,
00:17:03.52\00:17:09.54
the elders and the bishops,
must be the husband of one wife.
00:17:09.57\00:17:13.43
And then you have, of course,
Timothy and Titus that were
00:17:13.46\00:17:16.45
ordained as elders; both males.
00:17:16.48\00:17:19.01
There is not a single case in
all of Scripture where a woman
00:17:19.04\00:17:22.88
was ordained as an elder,
or as a pastor of a church.
00:17:22.91\00:17:28.64
And so as you look at the
preponderance of the evidence
00:17:28.67\00:17:32.04
in Scripture, it becomes
very clear that God's pattern
00:17:32.07\00:17:35.50
of leadership is males.
00:17:35.53\00:17:38.47
Ellen White has warned us
about the dangers of doing
00:17:38.50\00:17:43.29
things that are not
strictly forbidden in Scripture.
00:17:43.32\00:17:46.01
I read from the book, The
Great Controversy, page 289,
00:17:46.04\00:17:49.92
where Ellen White explains
about the Roman Catholic Church.
00:17:49.95\00:17:53.52
The argument that the Bible
permits that for which it does
00:18:05.39\00:18:08.90
not forbid sends us down a
very dangerous slippery slope.
00:18:08.93\00:18:14.38
Let's take just one example.
00:18:14.41\00:18:16.39
The historical evidence
indicates that the early church
00:18:16.42\00:18:20.75
began celebrating sunrise
services in commemoration
00:18:20.78\00:18:25.70
of the resurrection of Christ.
00:18:25.73\00:18:27.18
At first they did it on
the yearly basis, and then they
00:18:27.21\00:18:30.85
started doing it
on a weekly basis.
00:18:30.88\00:18:32.99
Now I have found no clear
Biblical evidence that would say
00:18:33.02\00:18:37.02
that this is alright,
or that this is forbidden.
00:18:37.05\00:18:40.88
And yet in a very short
period of time what happened was
00:18:40.91\00:18:45.09
that the church enjoined the
celebration of sunrise services
00:18:45.12\00:18:50.73
in honor of the
resurrection, and came to forbid
00:18:50.76\00:18:54.32
the observance
of the Holy Sabbath.
00:18:54.35\00:18:56.61
Just because the Bible
does not forbid something,
00:18:56.64\00:19:00.38
does not mean that it's right.
00:19:00.41\00:19:01.95
The Bible does not forbid
women's ordination explicitly,
00:19:01.98\00:19:06.09
but its unanimous testimony
is that the practice is reserved
00:19:06.12\00:19:11.18
for qualified men.
00:19:11.21\00:19:12.55
There is not even one example
in all of the Bible of a woman
00:19:12.59\00:19:16.80
who was ever
ordained to any office.
00:19:16.83\00:19:20.55
Another argument that is
used is that Hulda was a leader
00:19:20.58\00:19:25.10
in Israel, and
therefore we should have women
00:19:25.13\00:19:28.45
leaders in the church today.
00:19:28.48\00:19:30.59
Now the important thing
is that Hulda did provide
00:19:30.62\00:19:36.02
guidance to the king.
00:19:36.06\00:19:37.14
The king, by
the way, was Josiah.
00:19:37.17\00:19:40.03
Now the king decided whether he
would follow her counsel or not.
00:19:40.06\00:19:45.87
You see, Hulda
was not the leader,
00:19:45.91\00:19:48.79
she was a
counselor of the leader.
00:19:48.83\00:19:51.64
Hulda provided guidance to
the king, but the king decided
00:19:51.68\00:19:57.86
whether he would
follow her advice or not.
00:19:57.89\00:20:00.69
The important thing to remember
here is that Hulda did not take
00:20:00.73\00:20:05.20
over the reins of
leadership in Judah.
00:20:05.23\00:20:07.46
She did not take over
the throne or the priesthood
00:20:07.50\00:20:11.90
to clean up the apostasy.
00:20:11.93\00:20:13.57
She was merely the messenger
that God chose to encourage
00:20:13.61\00:20:18.38
Josiah to lead out in
the needed reformation
00:20:18.42\00:20:21.79
in the kingdom of Judah.
00:20:21.82\00:20:23.52
Hulda did not clean up the mess.
00:20:23.56\00:20:26.18
It was Josiah, the elders,
and the priests, as the leaders
00:20:26.22\00:20:31.72
of Judah who took
her counsel to heart,
00:20:31.75\00:20:35.07
and led out in
the necessary changes.
00:20:35.11\00:20:38.81
It was the king who
ordered the elders of
00:20:38.85\00:20:42.52
Judah and Jerusalem.
00:20:42.56\00:20:43.70
The priests, the prophets,
and all of the people came out
00:20:43.74\00:20:47.94
because the king told them to
come out to renew the covenant.
00:20:47.97\00:20:51.71
It was the king who
then commanded Hilkiah
00:20:51.75\00:20:54.87
to clean up the temple and
the land from the paraphernalia
00:20:54.91\00:20:58.93
that had been used
in the pagan cults,
00:20:58.97\00:21:01.09
and it was the king who
commanded the unfaithful
00:21:01.13\00:21:04.47
priests to be slain, and it
was the king who was extolled
00:21:04.81\00:21:08.09
by the Lord for
being a faithful leader.
00:21:08.12\00:21:10.84
You can read the story.
00:21:10.88\00:21:11.91
The center of the
story is the king.
00:21:11.94\00:21:14.70
The king is pulling all
of the strings as the leader,
00:21:14.74\00:21:18.15
but Hulda is helping in
the sense that she's providing
00:21:18.19\00:21:21.56
counsel as to how the
leaders should proceed.
00:21:21.60\00:21:25.54
In this sense Hulda is
very similar to a prophet
00:21:25.57\00:21:29.45
that existed
recently, which is Ellen White.
00:21:29.48\00:21:33.29
Another argument that is used
in favor of women's ordination
00:21:33.32\00:21:37.66
is the idea that because
Deborah was a judge in Israel,
00:21:37.70\00:21:42.38
that women should be allowed
to serve as pastors and elders
00:21:42.42\00:21:47.07
in the church today.
00:21:47.10\00:21:48.13
There's several factors that we
need to take into mind when we
00:21:48.16\00:21:51.46
talk about Deborah.
00:21:51.49\00:21:53.25
First of all, Deborah
served in a very chaotic period
00:21:53.29\00:21:57.98
of Israel's history.
00:21:58.02\00:21:59.05
The system of judges was
not God's organizational ideal.
00:21:59.08\00:22:04.14
Furthermore, Ellen White makes
it very clear that she served
00:22:04.17\00:22:09.22
in the absence of
the usual magistrates.
00:22:09.25\00:22:12.50
She was an exceptional
case, in other words.
00:22:12.53\00:22:15.71
It's interesting to notice that
this did not set a precedent for
00:22:15.74\00:22:20.62
other women judges in Israel,
and it did not come as a result
00:22:20.66\00:22:25.36
that you would have other women
elected as judges regionally
00:22:25.40\00:22:30.07
according to the
desires of the people.
00:22:30.11\00:22:32.61
Furthermore the Bible says that
she judged private and civil
00:22:32.64\00:22:37.26
things, not at the gate
like the usual judges would
00:22:37.30\00:22:41.48
do but under a tree.
00:22:41.51\00:22:43.90
You see, Deborah advised and
encouraged the leader, Barak,
00:22:43.94\00:22:49.96
to summon and
to lead the troops.
00:22:49.99\00:22:52.16
Barak was the one
who summoned the troops.
00:22:52.19\00:22:54.76
He was the one
who led the troops.
00:22:54.80\00:22:57.56
He was the one
who pursued the enemy.
00:22:57.60\00:23:00.29
In other words, Deborah
is serving as a prophet to
00:23:00.32\00:23:04.55
encourage the
leader to do his job.
00:23:04.59\00:23:08.14
Furthermore, it's interesting
to notice that later on Samuel
00:23:08.18\00:23:12.20
retold the story of what
happened in the days of Deborah,
00:23:12.23\00:23:16.22
and he mentions Barak
as the hero of the story,
00:23:16.25\00:23:19.47
and does not
even mention Deborah.
00:23:19.51\00:23:22.57
That's found in 1 Samuel 12:11.
00:23:22.60\00:23:25.59
And when the book of
Hebrews mentions this story,
00:23:25.63\00:23:30.05
it does not
mention Deborah at all.
00:23:30.08\00:23:32.49
Once again, Hebrews
11:32 mentions Barak as the one
00:23:32.53\00:23:38.52
who delivered Israel.
00:23:38.56\00:23:39.69
And it's interesting
that Deborah was not the one
00:23:39.72\00:23:43.42
who delivered Israel.
00:23:43.46\00:23:44.50
The one who really killed the
king was a woman called Jael.
00:23:44.53\00:23:49.25
So all of these things
clearly indicate that this was
00:23:49.28\00:23:52.73
an exceptional case.
00:23:52.76\00:23:54.20
She was playing the role more
of a prophet than taking over
00:23:54.23\00:23:58.96
the reins of
leadership in Israel.
00:23:58.99\00:24:01.51
Another argument that is
brought up is concerning Junia.
00:24:01.54\00:24:07.06
Supposedly Junia was the
first female apostle in history.
00:24:07.09\00:24:11.96
And I'm sure that Ingleswordka
is going to talk a little
00:24:12.00\00:24:16.87
bit about Junia,
but I'll just give you a
00:24:16.90\00:24:18.87
few interesting details.
00:24:18.91\00:24:20.28
First of all it's
debatable whether the name Junia
00:24:20.32\00:24:23.33
is male or female.
00:24:23.36\00:24:24.71
Secondly it is inconclusive
from the text whether Junia
00:24:24.74\00:24:29.77
was a well known
apostle, or whether she was well
00:24:29.80\00:24:33.18
known to the apostles.
00:24:34.16\00:24:35.72
Adventists have always believed
that clear texts must explain
00:24:35.76\00:24:41.16
the texts that are unclear.
00:24:41.20\00:24:43.09
In every other instance in
the New Testament where you have
00:24:43.12\00:24:46.92
apostles named by
name they are always males.
00:24:46.96\00:24:50.94
The twelve apostles were male.
00:24:50.97\00:24:53.28
The successor of Judas was male.
00:24:53.32\00:24:55.55
Paul and Barnabus were males,
as well as all of the other ones
00:24:55.59\00:24:59.91
in the New Testament.
00:24:59.94\00:25:00.97
All of the other apostles that
are mentioned by name were male.
00:25:01.00\00:25:04.92
And so the Biblical evidence
seems to clearly indicate
00:25:04.95\00:25:08.88
that Junia was not an apostle.
00:25:08.91\00:25:11.87
Now some people say,
Yeah, but what about Phoebe?
00:25:11.91\00:25:16.79
Phoebe was a deacon, and she
occupied the identical office
00:25:16.83\00:25:21.20
as the deacons do
in the church today.
00:25:21.24\00:25:24.65
But the fact is, when you
look carefully at the evidence,
00:25:24.69\00:25:28.22
you discover that even though
it's true that the word that is
00:25:28.25\00:25:31.99
used to describe Phoebe,
diakonos, is used for the
00:25:32.02\00:25:35.90
office of a deacon.
00:25:35.93\00:25:37.35
It is also true that the
word diakonos can mean simply
00:25:37.39\00:25:43.17
servant; someone who serves.
00:25:43.20\00:25:46.09
And it does not refer, most of
the time in the New Testament,
00:25:46.13\00:25:49.91
to a church office.
00:25:49.95\00:25:51.12
It refers simply to
the gift of service.
00:25:51.15\00:25:54.42
No place do we find in the New
Testament that Phoebe was ever
00:25:54.45\00:26:00.16
ordained to be a deaconess
by the laying on of hands.
00:26:00.19\00:26:04.27
Now we know from the evidence
that there were deaconesses
00:26:04.30\00:26:08.34
in the early church.
00:26:08.37\00:26:09.42
But we also know that they
were ordained by the bishop,
00:26:09.45\00:26:13.25
and they served under the
leadership of the male deacons.
00:26:13.29\00:26:17.73
We also know that they served
only the needs of the women
00:26:17.76\00:26:22.16
in the congregation.
00:26:22.20\00:26:23.64
And so it is uncertain
that Phoebe was a deacon,
00:26:23.68\00:26:29.13
as is so firmly stated
by many who believe in the
00:26:29.16\00:26:34.58
ordination of women.
00:26:34.62\00:26:35.86
But then comes Galatians 3:28,
where the apostle Paul stated
00:26:35.90\00:26:42.07
that there is
neither male or female.
00:26:42.10\00:26:44.09
And so, as the argument goes,
both males and females can now
00:26:44.12\00:26:53.21
serve as elders and
bishops, or overseers,
00:26:53.24\00:26:54.78
because there's no
longer male nor female.
00:26:54.82\00:26:56.33
If this is true, why would
the apostle Paul later on write
00:26:56.36\00:27:02.06
in Timothy and Titus that
the elder, or the overseer,
00:27:02.09\00:27:06.59
must be the husband of one wife?
00:27:06.63\00:27:09.05
Is it possible then that
what happened with Paul is that
00:27:09.08\00:27:12.69
at the beginning Paul was
an egalitarian, in other words
00:27:12.72\00:27:16.29
he believed that males
and females could both serve
00:27:16.32\00:27:19.04
as elders and bishops, and
then a little later on in his
00:27:19.08\00:27:22.42
ministry, when he wrote 1 and 2
Timothy and Titus, he said, No,
00:27:22.45\00:27:26.05
no. You know, I
think that now, we need to
00:27:26.08\00:27:28.78
restrict it just to males.
00:27:28.82\00:27:30.24
Well the fact is, the Biblical
evidence clearly shows that
00:27:30.27\00:27:33.49
Galatians 3:28 cannot
mean that women can be elders
00:27:33.53\00:27:37.56
and overseers, because the
apostle Paul later says, that
00:27:37.59\00:27:41.35
elders and overseers must
be the husband of one wife.
00:27:41.39\00:27:46.10
Now there are four ways
of looking at Galatians 3:28.
00:27:46.13\00:27:49.94
One way is when it says
there's neither male nor female,
00:27:49.98\00:27:53.75
it means that there are
no longer any biological
00:27:53.79\00:27:58.29
gender distinctions today.
00:27:58.33\00:28:00.24
Well, besides being
physiologically untrue,
00:28:00.27\00:28:04.45
this would reverse the
gender distinctions that God
00:28:04.49\00:28:08.96
established at creation.
00:28:08.99\00:28:10.02
Doesn't the Bible say that
God created male and female?
00:28:10.05\00:28:12.53
Of course! Paul would then be
overturning the creation order,
00:28:12.57\00:28:17.58
because God created a clear
distinction between male and
00:28:17.62\00:28:20.76
female, so we eliminate
possibility number one.
00:28:20.79\00:28:24.59
Possibility number two is that
there are no longer any marital
00:28:24.62\00:28:29.24
gender distinctions.
00:28:29.28\00:28:30.95
But if this were true, Paul
would once again be reversing
00:28:30.99\00:28:35.05
the creation order, because
God established heterosexual
00:28:35.08\00:28:38.97
marriage at the beginning
when He married male and female.
00:28:39.01\00:28:43.80
The third possibility is that
there are no longer any role
00:28:43.84\00:28:48.60
distinctions in the
home or in the church,
00:28:48.63\00:28:51.54
because there's no
longer any male or female;
00:28:51.57\00:28:54.45
that their roles
today, in other words,
00:28:54.48\00:28:56.85
are totally interchangeable.
00:28:56.88\00:28:59.04
If this were true Paul
would once again be reversing
00:28:59.07\00:29:03.72
the creation order.
00:29:03.75\00:29:05.28
John Peters is going to show
us that God established specific
00:29:05.31\00:29:10.21
roles for males and females in
the garden of Eden before sin.
00:29:10.24\00:29:13.98
He established that
the man should be the head.
00:29:14.02\00:29:16.94
He should be the leader,
and the woman should submit
00:29:16.97\00:29:19.93
to the authority of
the husband, or the man.
00:29:19.96\00:29:22.69
So if Paul meant that there are
no longer any role distinctions,
00:29:22.73\00:29:26.14
once again, he would be
going against the creation order
00:29:26.18\00:29:29.90
that God established
at the very beginning.
00:29:29.94\00:29:32.26
The fourth option, I
believe, is the correct one.
00:29:32.30\00:29:35.50
It's the idea that
male and female have equal
00:29:35.54\00:29:38.64
access to salvation,
and are equally members
00:29:38.67\00:29:43.95
of the family of God.
00:29:43.98\00:29:45.23
The context
indicates that very clearly.
00:29:45.27\00:29:48.12
The context is speaking
about the incorporation right.
00:29:48.16\00:29:51.44
It's speaking about baptism,
the entrance into a relationship
00:29:51.47\00:29:56.21
with Christ, the
entrance into the church.
00:29:56.25\00:29:59.08
The context of Galatians 3:28
clearly reveals that Paul is
00:29:59.12\00:30:04.49
describing the initiation
right into the Christian life.
00:30:04.52\00:30:09.83
He was not dealing with church
offices, particularly the church
00:30:09.86\00:30:14.36
offices of elder and
bishop, which come much later on
00:30:14.40\00:30:18.23
in the Christian experience.
00:30:18.27\00:30:19.50
You know, one of the
characteristics that is given
00:30:19.53\00:30:22.58
in the list that the
apostle Paul gives in 1 Timothy
00:30:22.61\00:30:26.20
and Titus, is that the
one who occupies the office of
00:30:26.24\00:30:29.79
bishop or elder
must not be a neophyte.
00:30:29.82\00:30:33.68
In other words, must
not be a new believer.
00:30:33.72\00:30:37.51
So how could someone,
Galatians 3:28, who has just
00:30:37.54\00:30:41.63
been baptized and joined Christ;
how could that mean that that
00:30:41.67\00:30:45.52
person now can serve as a bishop
or as an elder of the church?
00:30:45.56\00:30:49.37
It doesn't fit the context.
00:30:49.41\00:30:51.56
Another argument that is used
frequently is that it is certain
00:30:51.60\00:30:56.37
that in our Western culture
it is required that we be
00:30:56.40\00:31:00.09
absolutely egalitarian
in our ordination practices.
00:31:00.12\00:31:03.77
Society might consider us
sexist if we ordain only males.
00:31:03.80\00:31:09.86
So in order to
reach culture, we must be
00:31:09.90\00:31:12.99
sensitive to its desires.
00:31:13.02\00:31:15.13
But I must underline that
our standard is not what society
00:31:15.16\00:31:21.19
wants, our standard is
what the word of God prescribes.
00:31:21.22\00:31:25.35
Society also strongly pushes for
gay marriage, and for evolution.
00:31:25.38\00:31:31.66
Should we then change our
views on marriage and creation
00:31:31.69\00:31:36.57
to adjust to the
demands of culture?
00:31:36.61\00:31:39.03
Should we fear the embarrassment
of being called fundamentalists,
00:31:39.07\00:31:45.43
obscurantist's, and stone
age Christians because we still
00:31:45.46\00:31:49.85
uphold traditional marriage,
a literal seven day creation,
00:31:49.89\00:31:53.98
and proper leadership roles
within the home and the church?
00:31:54.01\00:31:58.07
Absolutely not! We must
uphold the absolute authority
00:31:58.10\00:32:03.24
of Scripture at
the risk of ridicule,
00:32:03.28\00:32:06.31
and even of persecution.
00:32:06.34\00:32:08.06
This is no time to give in to
peer pressure that would lower
00:32:08.09\00:32:13.05
the standard that God
gives us in Holy Scripture.
00:32:13.09\00:32:16.63
Ellen White in the book,
Fundamentals of Christian
00:32:16.66\00:32:20.16
Education, page
289, had this to say:
00:32:20.20\00:32:23.13
She also calls it present truth.
00:32:35.53\00:32:38.81
And she calls it the truth
for this time. So she says:
00:32:38.84\00:32:43.07
Listen if we say, Well,
we need to ordain women.
00:33:02.49\00:33:04.91
That way we'll
have more influence.
00:33:04.94\00:33:05.99
Listen to what she says:
00:33:06.02\00:33:07.22
Listen carefully now.
00:33:29.17\00:33:30.79
And so if we think that
we need to please the world
00:33:44.96\00:33:47.02
so that the world
doesn't consider us odd,
00:33:47.06\00:33:49.84
we're going down the wrong road.
00:33:49.88\00:33:51.42
Another argument that is used
is that in the Old Testament
00:33:51.45\00:33:55.59
it is certain that there were
male priests, but under the new
00:33:55.63\00:33:59.74
covenant now we have the
priesthood of all believers.
00:33:59.77\00:34:03.88
And that means that both
males and females can serve as
00:34:03.91\00:34:07.99
pastors and elders.
00:34:08.02\00:34:09.51
But those who argue in
this manner many times fail
00:34:09.55\00:34:14.20
to realize that the priesthood
of all believers already existed
00:34:14.24\00:34:17.91
in the Old Testament.
00:34:17.95\00:34:18.98
According to Exodus
19:5, 6 God called all Israel
00:34:19.01\00:34:25.17
to be a priesthood to share
the gospel with the nations.
00:34:25.21\00:34:29.18
But in the same chapter we're
told that God chose males from
00:34:29.22\00:34:33.71
the house of Aaron to occupy the
specialized office of priest.
00:34:33.75\00:34:38.31
And so all of Israel was a
priesthood, but God chose males
00:34:38.34\00:34:42.96
from the house of Aaron to be
the spiritual leaders in Israel.
00:34:42.99\00:34:47.57
In the same manner God
has called all Christians
00:34:47.61\00:34:51.11
to be a holy priesthood, to
proclaim as it says in 1 Peter,
00:34:51.15\00:34:55.21
the praises of Him who
called them out of darkness
00:34:55.25\00:34:58.09
into His marvelous light.
00:34:58.13\00:34:59.63
But this does not eliminate the
fact that the spiritual leaders
00:34:59.66\00:35:03.65
of the church must be
the husbands of one wife.
00:35:03.69\00:35:07.95
Another argument that is used
in favor of women's ordination
00:35:07.98\00:35:12.10
is the idea that Ellen White
was ordained, and that she was
00:35:12.14\00:35:16.22
issued ministerial credentials.
00:35:16.26\00:35:18.57
This myth has been passed along
as gospel truth by many of those
00:35:18.60\00:35:25.16
who favor women's ordination.
00:35:25.20\00:35:27.15
The evidence
provided in this symposium,
00:35:27.19\00:35:30.36
particularly on Sabbath morning,
will clearly and irrefutably
00:35:30.40\00:35:35.08
reveal that Ellen
White was never ordained
00:35:35.11\00:35:37.87
by the laying on of human hands,
even though she did receive
00:35:37.91\00:35:42.61
an honorary ministerial
credential for several years,
00:35:42.65\00:35:46.28
but on one of those credentials
the word ordained is crossed
00:35:46.32\00:35:50.76
off, because Ellen
White was never ordained
00:35:50.80\00:35:53.78
by the laying on of hands.
00:35:53.82\00:35:56.39
Another argument that is
used is that the word head
00:35:56.43\00:36:01.87
does not really mean head.
00:36:02.99\00:36:05.01
That the word head in
the New Testament actually
00:36:05.04\00:36:08.49
means source or origin.
00:36:08.52\00:36:11.09
The interesting thing is I
checked out all of the Bible
00:36:11.13\00:36:14.92
versions, and the word
kephale in the New Testament
00:36:14.95\00:36:18.71
is always translated head.
00:36:18.74\00:36:21.58
It is used seventy-seven
times in the New Testament,
00:36:21.62\00:36:25.11
according to what I
was able to determine,
00:36:25.15\00:36:27.05
and not once is it
translated source or origin.
00:36:27.08\00:36:31.76
It simply means head.
00:36:31.80\00:36:34.74
Nowhere do you find in
the New Testament a variant
00:36:34.78\00:36:39.09
meaning of this word.
00:36:39.81\00:36:41.20
It's true that
once in a blue moon,
00:36:41.24\00:36:43.61
in classical extra-Biblical
literature you might have a
00:36:43.64\00:36:47.91
reference to the word kephale,
meaning source or origin,
00:36:47.95\00:36:52.18
but that meaning is
alien to Holy Scripture.
00:36:52.22\00:36:56.54
Another argument that is
used is that the expression,
00:36:56.57\00:37:01.77
husband of one wife, really
means faithful to your spouse.
00:37:01.80\00:37:07.42
You see, that's
very gender inclusive.
00:37:07.45\00:37:10.25
And others even
say that a better
00:37:10.29\00:37:12.85
translation is one woman
man, of course, to get rid of
00:37:12.88\00:37:18.87
the gender specification.
00:37:18.91\00:37:20.94
But it bears noting that the
vast majority of Bible versions
00:37:20.98\00:37:25.06
dispute those renderings.
00:37:25.10\00:37:27.76
Not a single version
that I was able to find
00:37:27.79\00:37:30.85
translates one woman man.
00:37:30.89\00:37:32.80
And only a handful of
less popular versions translate
00:37:32.83\00:37:37.91
faithful to their spouse.
00:37:37.95\00:37:40.20
It bares noting that the words
husband and wife are very gender
00:37:40.23\00:37:46.25
specific there in
1 Timothy and Titus.
00:37:46.28\00:37:50.63
The words gynae are used,
and the word aner is used.
00:37:50.67\00:37:55.85
Aner means husband or
man, and gynae means wife.
00:37:55.89\00:38:01.00
They are the identical words
that are used, for example,
00:38:01.04\00:38:04.13
in Ephesians 5:25 where it
says, Husbands love your wives.
00:38:04.17\00:38:07.42
Would it be proper to translate
men love your women? No!
00:38:07.46\00:38:10.68
It means
husbands love your wives.
00:38:10.71\00:38:12.78
In other words it's
very, very gender specific.
00:38:12.81\00:38:16.43
When Paul says that the
elder of the bishop must be the
00:38:16.47\00:38:19.56
husband of one wife,
he means exactly that:
00:38:19.59\00:38:23.14
The husband of one
wife. He must be male.
00:38:23.18\00:38:26.66
Now another argument that is
used is the idea that when Paul
00:38:26.69\00:38:31.79
said that he would not
allow a woman to teach,
00:38:31.82\00:38:36.82
or to exercise authority over
the man, because the man was
00:38:36.85\00:38:41.14
created first and
then the woman,...
00:38:41.18\00:38:42.50
You know, those who favor
women's ordination come up with
00:38:42.54\00:38:45.73
the idea that there was this
Ephesian heresy that was being
00:38:45.76\00:38:48.91
taught by the women in
the the church of Ephesus,
00:38:48.95\00:38:51.56
to whom Paul is writing
here, that Eve had been created
00:38:51.59\00:38:56.52
first and then Adam.
00:38:56.55\00:38:57.62
And the apostle Paul is simply
setting them straight that
00:38:57.65\00:39:01.98
actually Adam was created
first, and then the woman.
00:39:02.01\00:39:05.52
The fact is, folks, that it's
not necessary to inject into
00:39:05.55\00:39:09.73
Scripture a historical
context that even reputable
00:39:09.77\00:39:13.53
historians have questioned.
00:39:13.56\00:39:14.85
There's no evidence in the
text that this heresy was being
00:39:14.88\00:39:18.68
taught by the
women from Ephesus.
00:39:18.71\00:39:21.37
It is injecting an argument
into Scripture that is not
00:39:21.40\00:39:25.58
found in Scripture.
00:39:25.62\00:39:26.68
That is called, by
the way, eisogesis.
00:39:26.71\00:39:29.95
Wouldn't it be much better
simply to take what the apostle
00:39:29.98\00:39:33.80
Paul says at face value, and
go all the way back to Genesis
00:39:33.84\00:39:37.50
and say that it is significant
that the man was created first,
00:39:37.53\00:39:41.15
and then woman, and
that the woman came from man,
00:39:41.19\00:39:44.21
and not man from the
woman, and leave it at that?
00:39:44.24\00:39:47.23
And simply take Paul's argument
as it is found in Scripture,
00:39:47.26\00:39:50.98
instead of
injecting an artificial
00:39:51.02\00:39:53.35
context into Scripture?
00:39:53.39\00:39:55.25
Now some people say, Well,
the idea of male headship is a
00:39:55.29\00:40:01.16
negative thing that
only comes in after sin
00:40:01.20\00:40:05.89
came into the world.
00:40:05.93\00:40:07.27
But the question is, if male
headship or leadership is a bad
00:40:07.31\00:40:13.30
thing, how do we explain Paul's
words in 1 Corinthians 11:3,
00:40:13.33\00:40:19.29
where the apostle Paul
says that God the Father is
00:40:19.32\00:40:22.81
the head of Christ.
00:40:22.84\00:40:24.14
Is that a bad
thing? Obviously not!
00:40:24.17\00:40:27.82
He also says that
Christ is the head of the man.
00:40:27.85\00:40:31.12
Is that a bad thing?
00:40:31.15\00:40:32.55
That certainly
would not be a bad thing,
00:40:32.58\00:40:35.02
but when it comes to the
point of saying that the man
00:40:35.05\00:40:37.56
is the head of the
woman, that is a bad thing.
00:40:37.59\00:40:40.16
That's what they're saying!
00:40:40.19\00:40:42.92
But the headship is
not in itself a bad thing.
00:40:42.95\00:40:47.88
Is it a bad thing that Christ
is the head of the church?
00:40:47.91\00:40:50.90
Absolutely not! Is it actually
bad for the physical head
00:40:50.93\00:40:55.81
to exercise loving
lordship over the body?
00:40:55.84\00:40:58.27
Do the physical head and body
have an egletarian relationship?
00:40:58.30\00:41:03.46
Now the head and the
body both mutually need
00:41:03.49\00:41:07.45
each other, don't they?
00:41:07.48\00:41:08.51
But should the body exercise
authority over the head,
00:41:08.54\00:41:12.68
or should the body submit to the
loving authority of the head?
00:41:12.71\00:41:17.10
You see, the head is a good
thing, because the head loves
00:41:17.13\00:41:22.04
the body and wants
the body to function well.
00:41:22.07\00:41:24.53
The head needs the body, but the
body definitely needs the head.
00:41:24.56\00:41:30.77
Another idea that comes up is
that the idea of male headship
00:41:30.80\00:41:36.67
gives people the idea that
this means that women are to be
00:41:36.70\00:41:41.49
subservient to men, and
they should be oppressed by men.
00:41:41.52\00:41:45.72
That's the way that
they look at headship.
00:41:45.75\00:41:48.69
And I know that Engel is
going to be dealing a lot with
00:41:48.72\00:41:51.82
headship in the New Testament.
00:41:51.85\00:41:53.28
That is a wrong caricature
of what real headship is.
00:41:53.31\00:41:58.19
You see, headship
is not something bad.
00:41:58.22\00:42:02.34
Is it bad that God the
Father is the head of Christ?
00:42:02.37\00:42:04.99
Absolutely not! Is it bad that
Christ is the head over the man?
00:42:05.02\00:42:09.22
Absolutely not! You see, the
word head, and the word headship
00:42:09.25\00:42:15.18
are not
necessarily bad in themselves.
00:42:15.21\00:42:18.30
Another argument that came up
recently, which was brought out
00:42:18.33\00:42:22.23
by the Andrews
University Theological Seminary,
00:42:22.26\00:42:25.04
they came out with a statement
that Christ is the only head
00:42:25.07\00:42:28.77
of the church, and therefore
there can be no male leaders
00:42:28.80\00:42:32.14
in the church
that are heads at all.
00:42:32.17\00:42:34.37
In fact, they stated that if
we teach that there are heads
00:42:34.40\00:42:38.89
in the church under
the headship of Christ,
00:42:38.92\00:42:41.40
that that is equivalent
to the Roman Catholic heresy
00:42:41.43\00:42:44.87
of the Pope being
the head of the church.
00:42:44.90\00:42:48.50
Now at Tosk there
were three groups.
00:42:48.53\00:42:51.95
There was group number one that
believed that women should not
00:42:51.98\00:42:55.22
be ordained as
pastoral leaders in the church.
00:42:55.25\00:42:59.95
There was group number two that
believed that women should be
00:42:59.98\00:43:04.01
ordained, because the roles
of men and women are identical.
00:43:04.04\00:43:08.12
And then there was group number
three that believed that we
00:43:08.15\00:43:12.41
should allow for the ordination
of women, even though God's
00:43:12.44\00:43:16.33
plan originally at creation was
for male leadership in the home,
00:43:16.36\00:43:20.62
and in the church.
00:43:20.65\00:43:21.84
Now let's talk a little bit
about this idea of headship.
00:43:21.87\00:43:26.54
In the Old Testament Moses
was the head of Israel under
00:43:26.57\00:43:31.72
the unique
headship of Jesus Christ.
00:43:31.75\00:43:34.40
In fact, under Moses
there were also heads.
00:43:34.43\00:43:38.40
Notice Exodus 18:25.
00:43:38.43\00:43:41.71
You remember that
Moses established leaders of
00:43:41.74\00:43:44.91
thousands, and hundreds,
and fifty's, and ten's?
00:43:44.94\00:43:48.22
You know, it's interesting
as you really look at this that
00:43:48.25\00:43:52.88
it is reflected very closely
to the system of organization
00:43:52.91\00:43:58.45
of the Adventist church.
00:43:58.48\00:43:59.51
You know, many people don't
think of the organization of
00:43:59.54\00:44:02.21
Israel as being a representative
style of governance.
00:44:02.24\00:44:05.43
You know, they think that God
spoke to Moses, and then Moses
00:44:05.46\00:44:08.30
imposed
everything on the people.
00:44:08.33\00:44:09.91
No, Israel had a representative
style of government.
00:44:09.94\00:44:12.62
And you say, How is that?
00:44:12.65\00:44:14.63
Well, Moses would
be equivalent to the
00:44:14.66\00:44:16.64
General Conference president.
00:44:16.67\00:44:18.07
The leaders of the tribes would
be equivalent to the divisions.
00:44:18.10\00:44:24.00
The thousands would be
equivalent to the unions.
00:44:24.03\00:44:27.76
The hundreds would be
equivalent to the conferences.
00:44:27.79\00:44:31.36
The fifties would be equivalent,
maybe, to the mission.
00:44:31.39\00:44:34.80
And the tens would be
equivalent to the local church.
00:44:34.83\00:44:38.06
And the priests would be
equivalent to the pastors.
00:44:38.09\00:44:40.87
And the deacons
would be the Levites.
00:44:40.90\00:44:43.56
You know, there's a strong
argument that you could use to
00:44:43.59\00:44:46.12
show that even though
our terminology is different,
00:44:46.15\00:44:48.68
the organization of Israel was
very similar to the organization
00:44:48.71\00:44:52.35
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:44:52.38\00:44:53.81
And Ellen White said that
the organization of Israel was a
00:44:53.84\00:44:57.22
perfect organization.
00:44:57.25\00:44:59.43
Now in Exodus 18:25, we're told
about those who worked under
00:44:59.46\00:45:03.55
Moses: the leaders of thousands,
hundreds, fifties, and tens.
00:45:03.58\00:45:06.87
Listen to how the word
head is used, and also rule.
00:45:06.90\00:45:11.07
It says there:
00:45:11.10\00:45:12.13
What? heads. Oh,
there's that nasty little word.
00:45:17.21\00:45:21.45
Ah notice, the heads are what?
00:45:26.33\00:45:28.16
And it's interesting in,
Testimonies to Ministers,
00:45:35.98\00:45:38.41
page 341, Ellen White,
speaking about this text says:
00:45:38.44\00:45:42.83
In the book, Confrontation,
page 25, Ellen White makes
00:45:50.00\00:45:54.36
this interesting
comment. She says:
00:45:54.39\00:45:56.37
And so there was a
visible leader, which was Moses,
00:46:05.52\00:46:08.38
under the leadership
of the invisible leader,
00:46:08.41\00:46:12.01
which was Jesus Christ.
00:46:12.04\00:46:13.83
I'd like to read a couple
of interesting statements from
00:46:13.86\00:46:18.66
Ellen White on the
role of the leaders in the
00:46:18.69\00:46:23.07
Seventh-day Adventist
Church, the pastoral leaders.
00:46:23.10\00:46:26.02
The first of these statements is
found in Acts of the Apostles,
00:46:26.05\00:46:28.92
page 122. And there's a specific
phrase that I want us to notice.
00:46:28.95\00:46:33.61
It is the phrase, In His stead.
00:46:33.64\00:46:36.94
That means, by the way, instead.
00:46:36.97\00:46:41.98
Now listen carefully.
00:46:42.01\00:46:43.76
That's Acts of
the Apostles, 360.
00:47:13.38\00:47:16.52
Now I'm going to read
Acts of the Apostles, 122.
00:47:16.55\00:47:18.80
She's speaking about Ananias.
00:47:18.83\00:47:20.39
Remember when Ananias
laid his hands upon Saul?
00:47:20.42\00:47:23.96
Ellen White makes this comment:
00:47:23.99\00:47:26.05
But this is my favorite: Gospel
Workers, page 11. She says:
00:48:04.74\00:48:10.45
She calls them delegates.
00:48:20.61\00:48:22.51
So there is the Great Shepherd
and the under shepherds;
00:49:06.92\00:49:10.75
The Great Head and those who
are heads under the Great Head.
00:49:10.78\00:49:15.25
She continues saying:
00:49:15.28\00:49:16.31
That's interesting.
00:49:47.61\00:49:48.64
How could it be more explicit?
00:50:08.07\00:50:10.01
By the way, the difference
between head and leader is
00:50:10.04\00:50:15.51
a matter of semantics.
00:50:15.54\00:50:16.78
The word headship is disliked
for no other reason than
00:50:16.81\00:50:20.29
the fact that it is a
strong word: headship.
00:50:20.32\00:50:24.82
But headship
basically means leadership.
00:50:24.85\00:50:27.23
You know, I looked up
the meaning of the word head
00:50:27.26\00:50:31.16
in Webster's 1828 edition,
which is probably the one that
00:50:31.19\00:50:34.60
Ellen White would have used,
and it has this definition:
00:50:34.63\00:50:37.67
head: to lead, to
direct, to act as leader.
00:50:37.70\00:50:43.57
So to distinguish
between head and leader
00:50:43.60\00:50:47.02
is an artificial distinction.
00:50:47.05\00:50:49.00
Another argument that is used
is that according to the Bible,
00:50:49.03\00:50:52.81
many women served as prophets.
00:50:52.84\00:50:55.48
If a woman can be a
prophet, why can't she be
00:50:55.51\00:50:59.26
an elder or a pastor?
00:50:59.29\00:51:00.78
After all, isn't the
office of prophet of higher rank
00:51:00.81\00:51:05.56
than the office of pastor?
00:51:05.59\00:51:07.85
Not according to Ellen White.
00:51:07.88\00:51:10.09
In the book, Volume 6, of
the Testimonies, page 411,
00:51:10.12\00:51:15.81
Ellen White had this to say:
00:51:15.84\00:51:17.89
And now listen:
00:51:35.78\00:51:37.26
So this idea that the
rank of prophet is up here,
00:51:51.11\00:51:54.28
and the gift of pastor is
way down here, so if Ellen White
00:51:54.31\00:51:57.48
could be a prophet, you
know, why can't women be elders
00:51:57.51\00:52:01.00
and pastors of the church
simply does not hold water.
00:52:01.03\00:52:05.70
You see, the gift of
prophecy is a Spiritual gift
00:52:05.73\00:52:08.93
that is given by God
without regard to gender.
00:52:08.96\00:52:11.65
There were many women
prophets in Scripture.
00:52:11.68\00:52:14.06
However, the role of prophet
must not be mingled or mixed
00:52:14.09\00:52:18.73
with the role
of elder or pastor.
00:52:18.76\00:52:20.76
They are two different things.
00:52:20.79\00:52:23.09
The Bible allows for gender
inclusiveness when it comes to
00:52:23.12\00:52:27.80
prophets, but it does not
allow for gender inclusiveness
00:52:27.83\00:52:31.58
when it comes to elders
and pastors of the church.
00:52:31.61\00:52:35.48
Some people say, but Ellen
White was the leader of the
00:52:35.52\00:52:38.62
Seventh-day
Adventist denomination.
00:52:38.66\00:52:40.91
So why can't women be
leaders of the church today?
00:52:40.95\00:52:44.61
Well, the fact is folks that
Ellen White fulfilled the same
00:52:44.64\00:52:48.27
role that was fulfilled, for
example, by Hulda and Deborah.
00:52:48.30\00:52:51.89
She delivered messages
from God to the leaders,
00:52:51.93\00:52:55.14
she corrected the leaders,
she encouraged the leaders
00:52:55.18\00:52:59.11
of the church when
they were discouraged,
00:52:59.14\00:53:00.97
but she never took over the
reins of leadership at any level
00:53:01.00\00:53:05.32
in the Seventh-day
Adventist denomination.
00:53:05.35\00:53:07.06
She never occupied a position
as pastor all the way up to
00:53:07.10\00:53:11.36
General Conference president.
00:53:11.39\00:53:12.49
She was not called
Pastor Ellen, or Elder White.
00:53:12.53\00:53:16.41
She was called Sister White.
00:53:16.44\00:53:18.47
Ellen White herself said,
in Volume 8 of the Testimonies,
00:53:18.50\00:53:22.38
pages 236 and 237:
00:53:22.42\00:53:24.21
Listen carefully.
00:53:32.99\00:53:34.02
Now notice the process:
00:53:43.10\00:53:44.27
That's the way that we
do our elections. She says:
00:54:04.27\00:54:07.47
Listen carefully.
00:54:18.00\00:54:19.03
That is when the
work was just starting.
00:54:27.61\00:54:29.20
So Ellen White
herself says that she wasn't a
00:54:42.28\00:54:44.83
leader of this people.
00:54:44.86\00:54:45.93
Ellen White was a counselor.
00:54:45.97\00:54:48.21
She encouraged, she corrected
just like Hulda and Deborah did,
00:54:48.24\00:54:52.91
and all of the
Biblical prophets.
00:54:52.95\00:54:54.58
But she did not take
over the leadership roles.
00:54:54.62\00:54:57.95
But she helped the
leaders in the process.
00:54:57.99\00:55:00.41
Another argument that is used
is that 1 Corinthians 11:3-15
00:55:00.44\00:55:08.47
is a cultural thing that
applied only to the times
00:55:08.50\00:55:11.65
of the apostle Paul.
00:55:11.68\00:55:12.71
You see, because it says there
that women should wear a veil,
00:55:12.74\00:55:17.74
and we don't have women wear
veils anymore in the church.
00:55:17.77\00:55:20.52
So they say, See that was
just a custom of the time.
00:55:20.56\00:55:23.27
But we need to understand that
even though the wearing of the
00:55:23.30\00:55:27.99
veil was a custom of the time,
there was a principle behind it,
00:55:28.02\00:55:32.04
and the principle
does not vary or change.
00:55:32.07\00:55:35.80
The principle is male headship.
00:55:35.83\00:55:37.92
The way of announcing it
publicly, and manifesting it
00:55:37.96\00:55:41.09
publicly, was that the woman
wore the veil recognizing her
00:55:41.13\00:55:44.90
submission to male authority.
00:55:44.94\00:55:46.98
In other words, the submission
of the woman to male authority
00:55:47.02\00:55:51.55
is timeless, although the
way of manifesting the principle
00:55:51.59\00:55:56.09
varies from culture to culture.
00:55:56.12\00:55:58.11
Let me give you an illustration.
00:55:58.15\00:56:00.06
A few years ago I went to the
home of one of the individuals
00:56:00.10\00:56:05.90
of a church that I visited, and
I noticed that there was a stack
00:56:05.94\00:56:11.70
of books on a table
there, and under all of the
00:56:11.74\00:56:15.53
books was a Bible.
00:56:15.56\00:56:16.74
Now we all know that the proper
place to put the Bible is always
00:56:16.77\00:56:20.40
on top of all the
other books, right?
00:56:20.44\00:56:21.98
There's no
other way of doing it.
00:56:22.02\00:56:23.51
That's the way we have to do it.
00:56:23.54\00:56:25.00
You put it on top.
00:56:25.04\00:56:26.30
And so I was bothered.
00:56:26.33\00:56:27.53
And I looked at that Bible
at the bottom, and you know,
00:56:27.56\00:56:29.48
it was just eating me up.
00:56:29.52\00:56:31.61
So finally I said to him, I
said, Listen, I need to know
00:56:31.64\00:56:35.62
why do you put the Bible
under all of those books?
00:56:35.66\00:56:38.57
The Bible is supposed to
be on top of all knowledge.
00:56:38.60\00:56:41.13
And he looked at me and
he said, Well, that's true.
00:56:41.16\00:56:43.62
The Bible is on top of all
knowledge, but it is also the
00:56:43.66\00:56:46.27
foundation of all knowledge.
00:56:46.31\00:56:48.62
Now what is the principle?
00:56:48.66\00:56:50.91
The principle is that the
Bible is above all knowledge.
00:56:50.94\00:56:54.11
But the way in which
that is expressed can vary
00:56:54.14\00:56:57.36
from culture to culture.
00:56:57.40\00:56:58.60
Are you with me or not?
00:56:58.63\00:56:59.77
And so the veil was the way
of manifesting male headship
00:56:59.80\00:57:04.09
and female submission.
00:57:04.12\00:57:05.41
But it doesn't mean that
1 Corinthians 11 no longer
00:57:05.45\00:57:09.43
applies to us today.
00:57:09.47\00:57:11.95
Another argument that is
used is that certain women
00:57:11.99\00:57:16.76
in Adventist history were
ordained as pastors and elders.
00:57:16.79\00:57:22.12
Well, I can
answer this very quickly.
00:57:22.15\00:57:24.71
There is no evidence whatsoever
in the history of the Adventist
00:57:24.74\00:57:28.93
church that women were
ever ordained or received
00:57:28.97\00:57:33.13
a ministerial
credential until recent times.
00:57:33.17\00:57:37.26
Ellen White is the only woman
in the history of the Adventist
00:57:37.30\00:57:41.56
church until
recent times, who received
00:57:41.59\00:57:44.36
a ministerial credential.
00:57:44.40\00:57:45.99
Other women received
ministerial licenses.
00:57:46.03\00:57:50.93
And I have some quotations where
it clearly says that ministerial
00:57:50.96\00:57:55.03
credentials are
given to ordain pastors.
00:57:55.06\00:57:57.12
Ministerial licenses are
given to those who have not
00:57:57.15\00:58:01.52
yet been ordained.
00:58:01.56\00:58:02.98
There was a clear distinction.
00:58:03.01\00:58:04.17
Many women received ministerial
licenses, but no women,
00:58:04.20\00:58:08.48
except Ellen White, received
a ministerial credential.
00:58:08.51\00:58:12.36
And Ellen White received
it more as an honorary thing.
00:58:12.39\00:58:16.21