The following program presents
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principles designed
to promote good health
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and is not
intended to take the place
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of personalized
professional care.
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The opinions and ideas expressed
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are those of the
speaker. Viewers are encouraged
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to draw their own conclusions
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about the information presented.
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Welcome to Wonderfully Made.
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I am Dr. David
DeRose. President of Compass
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Health Incorporated.
We're looking today
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at a question, the
question is, can hope heal?
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You know, this subject
has captured the attention
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of medical professionals
throughout the centuries.
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And today often
discussions circulate,
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about the healing power of hope.
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Today, joining me
on this edition of
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Wonderfully Made,
is Dr. John Clark.
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John, it's great to
have you on the studio again.
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Well, thanks for having me,
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it's a privilege to be here.
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You know, hope is something,
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that really adds
buoyancy to life.
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And yet, is it
really something in medical
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circles that can
make a difference,
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as we deal with
patients. Do you have
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a quick take on that Dr. Clark?
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Well, I am kind of hoping so.
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Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing
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a show together, right.
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That's right.
Actually one of the
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fascinating things
to me John is the whole
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science of Placebo Therapy.
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Oh! yeah. And for our listeners,
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Placebos have often been
described as sugar pills.
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Things that have
no efficacy at all,
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but scientists are
looking more closely today
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at Placebos then ever
before, I recently came
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across an article
that first appeared in the
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Harvard Medical
Alumni, periodical back in the
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middle 1990's, they were
summarizing actually data,
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that had been
presented some 40 years before.
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And what they were
talking about is a case
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study of a patient,
who had a metastatic cancer
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apparently a
lymphoma, large tumor masses
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throughout his body
and his doctor heard about
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a treatment, a
treatment protocol that was
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going on. This
patient was placed on it
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and he had marvelous
results, his tumors just
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shrank, but it was
found that this cancer therapy
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in other patients was
not beneficial at all,
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and when the
patient got wind of this
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his cancer came
back with a vengeance
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Dr. Clark, I
know, you're familiar
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with this story as
well and most people,
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think well
probably that's the end
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of the story, he
gets the treatment.
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He thinks it's
gonna help him, he gets
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dramatic response,
the cancer is going away,
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he starts hearing
reports, it was no good
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anyway and the cancer recurs,
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was that the end of the story.
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Well, no it wasn't in
fact his doctor returned
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with a new dose
of the same drug,
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that was fresher
then the previous dose
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and convinced the patient that
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this was actually a
more efficacious drug
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or version of the
drug, gave the patient,
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the injection and the results.
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You're exactly right,
the results were the same,
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the patient had even
more beneficial response.
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But, finally when
again after a period of time,
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of remission of
his cancer. He was a
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well men, when the
final word came out
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about this drug, and by
the way the fresher dose
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that Dr. Clark was referring to,
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was actually a Placebo,
the doctor as I understand
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the story just
gave him sterile water.
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Yes. When the patient
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find out that the
supposed treatment was not
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efficacious, the American
Medical Association said
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it was no good,
his cancer came back
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and this time he died.
Dr. Clark, no healing power
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in this
medication he was being given
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and yet it seem
both times, the drug
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was administered, he
was on his way toward
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healing. How do you explain it?
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Isn't that interesting?
You know, we often think
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that our drugs
are what cure things.
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But sometimes it's,
you know there is a great
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compound of faith or a
belief or of as we say hope.
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Hope is an
incredibly precious commodity
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and what we're finding
is that medical studies
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many times you'll see
30 to 40 percent of people
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improve on a study
when all they are given.
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Is a so called
sugar pill or Placebo,
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the Placebo is
illustrating the patient's hope.
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Yes. I mean think about it.
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you've looked at
this whole subject of
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avian flu, we've
talked about this in previous
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shows together.
If I just told you,
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John, you've got
this deadly disease,
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go home and die.
What do you think
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would happened to you?
I wouldn't have much hope,
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would I, that sounds
like a death sentence
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and yet you hear
about patient's that are
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given that kind
of, you know, sentence.
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Yeah, you have fatal cancer,
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you'll die in six months
and all of a sudden they find
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a treatment often
outside of the recommended
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treatment regimens,
that they put their hope,
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their faith in and
it actually has results.
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You know, this has
some powerful implications
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going both ways, on the
positive side we want to
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harness the power of
hope and medical studies
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are showing this,
I'm looking at an article
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right here. It's
called the Placebo effect
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in modern
medicine. This came out in
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one of the medical journals
and it's very interesting.
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Listen to what
these authors conclude,
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they say centuries of
clinical experience show
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the Placebo
treatments benefit patients,
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patients with a
wide range of disorders.
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And they conclude they listen,
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incorporating
components of a Placebo effect
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into primary care
practices can minimize,
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no, maximize, can
maximize the effects of
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traditional and
alternative treatments
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in ways that are both
medically and ethically
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sound, so
researchers used to look at the
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Placebo effect as kind of
a do nothing harm. Now the
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papers are saying, we
need to do more utilizing
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this power we call
it, the power of hope.
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You and I, they
are talking about the
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Placebo effects. So, that's the
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positive side, is
there a negative side,
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to the Placebo
effect. You ever see
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that in your
practice. Well, you know, the
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negative side often
comes up, when somebody
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is trying to sell a
product, that supposedly,
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cures a disease and they are
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so charismatic that
they actually illicit a
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Placebo response
to something that may
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either be inert,
inactive or actually harmful.
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Now this is, this is
very, very important, you know
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there are a lot of
people out there, that are using
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compounds and using
supplements, they are using
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things that
really. If you look at the
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literature, there
is nothing to suggest
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that they are helping
every ill known to mankind
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and you hear these
people giving these
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testimonials that it cures
everything and you're starting
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to wonder. How
much of this is really a
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Placebo effect
just like you're saying.
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The problem is what
happens, when the Placebo effect
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is experienced in one patient
with rheumatoid arthritis
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or a patient with cancer,
let's say its a cancer the
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traditional medicine has a
cure for, lets say a highly
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treatable cancer like
testicular cancer in a
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young man. There is
chemotherapy radiation,
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we may not like
those approaches, we may be
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concerned about their
toxicity, but I may not
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be able to say look at
here's a natural regimen,
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that I am confident
works. So someone hears a
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testimonial and in
that testimonial, a person
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saying yes, I had
this testicular cancer.
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I didn't have the
conventional therapy.
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I took these herbs and
these pills and I was cured.
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Now the person listening
though may not have the
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confidence in those
treatments, but may just
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be wishfully thinking
they can avoid the other
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therapies. Is it possible
Dr. Clark, that the same
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thing that gives a
powerful element of hope to
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one person, may
not give that element
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and they may forgo
effective treatment
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because of it. Oh!
Absolutely and I have
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seen this
though in the other way
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too that when people
had no faith in something
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that usually did
work. They could have a
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negative outcome
from a good medicine cure
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or whatever. You know
there is a interesting
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stories that have
been told many times in
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medical circles
about patients that
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feared treatments,
that the doctors knew
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were perfectly safe. Yeah.
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And people even
died. We call this the
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nocebo effect,
there's a Placebo, that when
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they is actually no
biological connection
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between things,
because of hope, it brings good
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things, there's a
nocebo effect and that's the
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opposite. When you're
worried that something bad
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is going to
happen, something that
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is totally inert could
even kill you, there are
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cases of this,
well established cases
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in the medical
literature a whole series
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of patients that have
been described with this
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nocebo effect happening.
Oh! Yeah, I've seen it
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too, you had a
patient that comes to the
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operating room, they come
in maybe after a car wreck
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you have to do a quick
operation on him to save
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a limb or life and they
come in the operating room
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saying I know I am gonna die,
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I know I am gonna
die. And, lo and behold
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a high percentage,
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of them actually do
I have seen them die.
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So, what do you do
as a surgeon and I know,
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I know you're a board certified
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orthopedic surgeon,
what would you do if
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there is a situation
like that, someone says,
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I know I am gonna
die and it's an emergency
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surgery, would you talk
with them, pray with them,
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I mean what can you
do in that situation?
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Yeah, you know I do
pray with all my patients.
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Before, we take them to surgery.
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You try to talk to them,
you might try to ask them.
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But often times they
are in a bit of delirium
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and this is just
their subconscious coming
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through and there isn't
much you can do to change it,
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should you stop
surgery, that's a whole another
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topic. But it
definitely happens.
00:10:30.28\00:10:34.52
So the power of the
mind has a significant impact
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on how we do? When it comes
00:10:39.45\00:10:40.93
to health outcomes doesn't it.
00:10:40.98\00:10:42.40
Oh! Yes, sure it does.
00:10:42.54\00:10:43.97
So, we wanna
harness the positive things
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that could come
from mental outlook
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and, you know,
right here we have a book,
00:10:50.01\00:10:53.90
that God has given us in
the scriptures, that really
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are designed to give us hope.
00:10:57.99\00:10:59.82
Yes. You know one of the,
00:11:00.51\00:11:02.62
the scriptures John,
that I think encapsulates this
00:11:02.65\00:11:07.16
so well, is in the
Book of Romans, you know
00:11:07.19\00:11:10.39
Paul writes at great
lengths in this book,
00:11:10.42\00:11:12.92
about if you will may
be a medical diagnosis,
00:11:13.78\00:11:17.35
if you will, a
spiritual diagnosis, that all of
00:11:17.38\00:11:20.42
us have sinned, we've
all come short of God,
00:11:20.45\00:11:22.36
we are all in need of a
savior, that savior has been
00:11:23.11\00:11:25.58
provided. Paul goes
on to explain and then
00:11:25.61\00:11:29.15
he writes, later in
the chapters of Roman some
00:11:29.78\00:11:33.24
marvelous practical counsel.
00:11:33.72\00:11:35.55
In Romans chapter
15th verse 4, he says this.
00:11:35.58\00:11:40.00
For whatsoever things
were written aforetime,
00:11:40.41\00:11:43.15
were written for our learning,
00:11:43.18\00:11:45.18
that we through
patience and comfort
00:11:46.10\00:11:48.72
of the
scriptures might have hope.
00:11:48.75\00:11:51.71
Yes. God is trying to give us
00:11:51.74\00:11:55.82
hope through his
word, as physicians and as
00:11:55.85\00:11:58.95
we look at the medical
research we're seeing that
00:11:58.98\00:12:01.15
hope has profound
benefits. Let's turn
00:12:01.18\00:12:04.63
the scales a
little bit, because as an
00:12:04.66\00:12:06.70
orthopedic surgeon,
you have looked at a
00:12:06.73\00:12:09.44
problem that often
comes, when we don't have hope
00:12:09.47\00:12:12.10
and that is the full born
rage, the full born weight
00:12:12.13\00:12:18.73
of stress coming at us,
we don't have any hope, the
00:12:18.76\00:12:21.30
stressors that
come at us take on
00:12:21.33\00:12:22.44
huge proportions. When
it comes to low back pain,
00:12:22.47\00:12:26.12
when it comes to
common orthopedic problems,
00:12:26.15\00:12:28.74
you shared with me once,
that's a very interesting
00:12:28.77\00:12:31.62
orthopedic research is
connected this with lack
00:12:31.65\00:12:34.72
of hope and stress,
explain that to our viewers.
00:12:34.75\00:12:36.99
Yeah, you know there is
a lot of people that have
00:12:37.02\00:12:39.45
low back pain, that's
just kind of another epidemic,
00:12:39.48\00:12:42.79
in our country. But there was a
00:12:42.82\00:12:45.32
physiatrist that did a
bunch of research on these
00:12:45.35\00:12:48.07
12345678901234567890123456789012
people, physiatrists are people
who, okay, I wanted you to
00:12:48.10\00:12:51.07
explain, what's a physiatrist?
Physiatrists are physicians
00:12:51.10\00:12:55.07
who basically run
physical therapy units,
00:12:55.10\00:12:57.87
at hospitals, rehab
hospitals, this kind of
00:12:57.90\00:13:00.62
thing, they often get
a lot of low back pain
00:13:00.65\00:13:03.84
patients, the average
doctor sends them somewhere
00:13:03.87\00:13:06.00
else and so this
physiatrist started to look
00:13:06.03\00:13:10.00
at these low back pain
patients and then the studies
00:13:10.03\00:13:14.35
also started coming
out on the MRIs. You know,
00:13:14.38\00:13:16.31
we have this new
tool, let's run everybody
00:13:16.34\00:13:17.95
through the MRI, they
ran normal people through an
00:13:17.98\00:13:20.57
MRI from around the
block and lo and behold
00:13:20.60\00:13:24.15
40 percent look like,
they needed an operation.
00:13:24.18\00:13:27.32
Wait, wait, wait
normal people they are healthy
00:13:28.05\00:13:30.07
they have no back
pain. No back pain and so the
00:13:30.10\00:13:33.48
physiatrist started
thinking, well why are we
00:13:33.51\00:13:36.35
operating on the ones,
that we are operating on
00:13:36.38\00:13:39.01
and why do they
have low back pain.
00:13:39.04\00:13:41.57
The backs looked the
same, people with no pain
00:13:41.60\00:13:44.61
and people with severe
pain that they are operating on.
00:13:44.64\00:13:47.15
Right, exactly and so he
had to think this through
00:13:47.45\00:13:52.03
Well, what's going on,
so he started looking at the
00:13:52.06\00:13:54.32
population of
people with low back pain.
00:13:54.35\00:13:56.37
Umm! He started running
00:13:56.40\00:13:57.93
physiological tests
on them, MMPIs and so
00:13:57.96\00:14:01.02
forth and lo and
behold, he discovered that
00:14:01.05\00:14:04.91
these people often
had underlying stress
00:14:04.94\00:14:08.29
from maybe childhood
rage, abuse, especially
00:14:08.32\00:14:11.64
victims of sexual abuse. Umm!
00:14:11.67\00:14:14.28
And this doesn't mean that
everybody with low back pain
00:14:14.31\00:14:16.80
has sexual abuse
in their history.
00:14:16.83\00:14:18.44
Of course not. But
yes, high stress life,
00:14:18.47\00:14:21.09
and then he said well
you know are they just
00:14:21.12\00:14:23.07
making the pain up,
because they're stressed,
00:14:23.10\00:14:25.03
this can't be and then
they did the PET studies,
00:14:25.06\00:14:28.06
where they could
follow blood flow, and they
00:14:28.09\00:14:30.44
found out that people
with this greater stress,
00:14:30.47\00:14:32.90
especially childhood
rage, were actually using
00:14:32.93\00:14:37.19
their nerves, the
sympathetic and parasympathetic
00:14:37.22\00:14:40.51
nervous system to shut
down blood vessels in the
00:14:40.54\00:14:42.92
back. Blood vessels to muscles.
00:14:42.95\00:14:45.18
They say they were
using this. I mean, this
00:14:45.21\00:14:47.33
was not a conscious
thing where someone saying I'm
00:14:47.36\00:14:49.67
gonna put less blood
to my back, because I am
00:14:49.70\00:14:52.19
angry, because I
am stress, right.
00:14:52.22\00:14:53.65
No, not conscious at
all and if you asked them,
00:14:53.68\00:14:56.34
if they're doing that,
they wouldn't believe you
00:14:56.37\00:14:58.65
or say yes. But
the blood's being
00:14:58.68\00:15:01.99
cut off to a number of
tissues, that when they
00:15:02.02\00:15:04.81
get low on blood,
they hurt muscles, tendons
00:15:04.84\00:15:07.76
ligaments, nerves
themselves, bones and so forth.
00:15:07.79\00:15:11.43
And so when he started
discovering this, he said
00:15:11.46\00:15:14.51
well, what's the cure
then, may be everything we do
00:15:14.54\00:15:17.01
is Placebo, physical
therapy, nonsteroidal
00:15:17.04\00:15:20.69
anti-inflammatories
and so forth. Umm!
00:15:20.72\00:15:23.21
And so he started to
put together a program,
00:15:23.47\00:15:26.41
along with some of
the psychologists in his
00:15:26.44\00:15:28.37
hospital, about
educating people on what was
00:15:28.40\00:15:32.44
happening? Basically a
cognitive behavioral therapy
00:15:32.47\00:15:36.13
approach, here's what happening,
00:15:36.16\00:15:38.02
here's what you are
doing? And so in his seminar,
00:15:38.05\00:15:40.53
that he put
together based on this.
00:15:40.56\00:15:42.10
He would go through
mind, body connection,
00:15:42.13\00:15:45.54
the nerves, the
pathways, the physiology
00:15:45.57\00:15:48.07
behind the blood
vessels being closed off.
00:15:48.10\00:15:50.58
And then, he made it a
seminar with a few extra
00:15:50.61\00:15:55.89
points on how to
deal with rage and anger.
00:15:55.92\00:15:58.25
Umm! This two days seminar
00:15:58.28\00:16:00.09
had marvelous success,
people with low back pain,
00:16:00.97\00:16:05.09
TMJ,
fibromyalgia, carpal tunnel,
00:16:05.12\00:16:06.88
tennis elbow,
anterior knee pain.
00:16:07.47\00:16:08.96
all about 85 percent
after going through his
00:16:08.99\00:16:12.15
seminars found improvement
and even relief. Wow!
00:16:12.18\00:16:15.78
So, in alternative to surgery.
00:16:16.53\00:16:18.42
Alternative to
surgery. In alternative to other
00:16:18.96\00:16:20.82
more aggressive
therapy was just addressing,
00:16:20.85\00:16:24.00
the stress factors and
presumably giving people
00:16:24.03\00:16:26.14
more hope. Yes, that's right
00:16:26.17\00:16:28.50
and dealing with
their, as you might say
00:16:28.53\00:16:30.86
lack of hope or depression.
00:16:30.89\00:16:32.39
Dr. Clark you
mentioned something that I
00:16:33.19\00:16:35.05
think is worth spending
a little bit of time with,
00:16:35.08\00:16:38.42
it's this whole
aspect of the sympathetic and
00:16:38.45\00:16:41.71
parasympathetic
nervous systems. You and I as
00:16:41.74\00:16:44.76
physicians know these
as the autonomic nervous
00:16:44.79\00:16:48.13
system, this is
the unconscious nervous
00:16:48.16\00:16:50.80
system, the nervous
system, you're not aware of
00:16:50.83\00:16:52.85
and we speak of it
having this two hands if you
00:16:52.88\00:16:54.86
will, the sympathetic
hand that we often refer to
00:16:54.89\00:16:59.69
as the part of the nervous
system that's involved in
00:16:59.72\00:17:02.86
fight or flight,
the stress response.
00:17:03.00\00:17:05.40
And on the other
side, we have the
00:17:06.00\00:17:07.53
parasympathetic hand.
This is the side that is
00:17:07.56\00:17:10.62
involved with normal
restorative functions
00:17:10.65\00:17:13.30
in the body, rest,
rebuilding, digestion,
00:17:13.33\00:17:17.12
a simulation. Dr.
Clark you've dealt
00:17:17.15\00:17:20.92
with a lot of conditions,
you have been looking
00:17:20.95\00:17:23.65
a lot of infectious diseases.
00:17:23.68\00:17:25.59
Does this balance
between the involuntary parts of
00:17:25.91\00:17:28.95
the nervous system
play role in things other
00:17:28.98\00:17:31.37
then orthopedic
problems? Yes, sure does,
00:17:31.40\00:17:33.84
in fact there's
become a whole area of study
00:17:33.87\00:17:37.22
now dealing with
those aspects of immune
00:17:37.25\00:17:40.43
system and mental
factors and so immunopsychology
00:17:40.46\00:17:47.02
and so they study
what happens to patients
00:17:47.05\00:17:49.83
and their mental attitudes
and how it effects their immune
00:17:49.86\00:17:52.43
systems. People that are
happy, I assume if they are
00:17:52.46\00:17:55.53
happy, they have more hope,
maybe we're making a stretch
00:17:55.56\00:17:58.01
there, but happier
people have more IGA in their
00:17:58.04\00:18:00.63
secretions like their
tear drops, their mucous
00:18:00.66\00:18:04.44
membranes, IGA is one of
the first immune defenses
00:18:04.47\00:18:07.88
against a known
invader of pathogen
00:18:07.91\00:18:10.84
it's an antibody,
they'll have better natural
00:18:10.87\00:18:13.49
clear cell activity
and so definitely there
00:18:13.52\00:18:17.09
is a positive
effect, that can be measured
00:18:17.12\00:18:19.16
in the immune function.
You know, one of the other
00:18:19.19\00:18:21.88
interesting things
when we speak about natural
00:18:21.91\00:18:23.83
remedies is that many of
these agencies that people
00:18:23.86\00:18:27.30
have been using for
years, really actually help to
00:18:27.33\00:18:31.24
balance the
sympathetic and parasympathetic
00:18:31.27\00:18:34.35
nervous system, exercise
seems to be an excellent
00:18:34.38\00:18:37.87
example in things
that I've read and
00:18:37.90\00:18:40.42
work that I have done
with patients. Do you feel that
00:18:40.45\00:18:43.10
exercise in your
experience Dr. Clark,
00:18:43.13\00:18:45.22
is very important for
this immune system balance
00:18:45.25\00:18:48.28
and nervous system
balance, if you will.
00:18:48.31\00:18:50.21
Yes, it sure is, and
especially exercises that
00:18:50.24\00:18:53.49
include stretching and
some aerobics. When you
00:18:53.52\00:18:57.29
get fresher along
with it, but there is
00:18:57.32\00:18:59.75
definitely a balance
to be gained. Because when
00:18:59.78\00:19:02.88
people are
stagnant, we say sedentary,
00:19:02.91\00:19:07.22
pretty soon their
immune system has a hard time
00:19:07.98\00:19:10.59
working in the body,
it's because if everything
00:19:10.62\00:19:13.07
is flowing slowly,
well you know how it is when
00:19:13.10\00:19:14.96
you go to work and
everything is flowing slowly
00:19:14.99\00:19:17.34
Well, and in your body
the same thing happens and
00:19:17.37\00:19:20.11
so you can get pulling of
some things in some area of body
00:19:20.14\00:19:23.14
and other components
and other areas and it's a
00:19:23.17\00:19:26.58
problem. You know,
what's fascinating to me
00:19:26.61\00:19:29.47
as we look at these subjects
we're talking about the healing
00:19:29.50\00:19:31.52
power of hope,
hope bring healing
00:19:31.55\00:19:34.42
and as we look at God's
word he speaks about his word
00:19:34.45\00:19:38.76
ministering hope.
It's interesting as we look
00:19:38.79\00:19:40.93
at these
different lifestyle aspects,
00:19:40.96\00:19:42.87
we could find them
rooted in the scriptures,
00:19:42.90\00:19:44.44
exercise for
example, you know Dr. Clark
00:19:44.47\00:19:47.95
many people when they
think of their ideal existence
00:19:47.98\00:19:50.63
it's laying on the beach
with someone serving them
00:19:50.66\00:19:54.43
you know bringing them
food and just relaxing,
00:19:54.46\00:19:56.67
no work, but God didn't
set Adam and Eve in the garden
00:19:56.70\00:20:00.89
with a program of
just putting their feet
00:20:00.92\00:20:03.47
up and resting. Did
he? No he put them to work
00:20:03.50\00:20:06.11
and that's right,
study show people who work
00:20:06.14\00:20:09.27
with the ground
who get that as we say
00:20:09.30\00:20:11.21
humus in the air
that actually helps,
00:20:11.24\00:20:13.70
it stimulates more
negative ions in the air,
00:20:13.73\00:20:16.40
it stimulates the
immune system as well,
00:20:16.43\00:20:18.17
but that's kind of
beyond hope, but you know this
00:20:18.20\00:20:21.55
whole aspect of hope. I remember
00:20:21.58\00:20:24.94
hearing a preacher
who was asked you know,
00:20:24.97\00:20:27.48
how do I know if
I am saved or not,
00:20:27.51\00:20:28.77
somebody was trying
to get their you know
00:20:28.80\00:20:31.07
hope together, they
wanted an assurance.
00:20:31.10\00:20:32.87
Umh. And he turned
to a text in the Bible
00:20:32.90\00:20:35.80
that Martin and Luther
found hope in and that is
00:20:35.83\00:20:39.14
"The just shall live by faith."
00:20:39.17\00:20:41.77
Umh. And a lot of
this has to do with hope.
00:20:41.80\00:20:44.45
You know you're
exactly right. These things are
00:20:45.27\00:20:48.35
so interrelated, it's amazing.
00:20:48.38\00:20:50.13
You know, we
may, it may sound like
00:20:50.16\00:20:52.61
we're coming from
a bunch of tangents,
00:20:52.64\00:20:54.50
but God is
ministering a program,
00:20:54.87\00:20:57.28
that's giving us
spiritually hope,
00:20:57.31\00:20:59.56
it's giving us physically hope,
00:20:59.89\00:21:01.30
when he gives exercise,
yeah, we can talk about
00:21:01.33\00:21:03.22
the immune system
benefits, we can talk about
00:21:03.25\00:21:06.03
balancing the nervous
system, but the psychological
00:21:06.06\00:21:09.95
literature says exercise
induces positive emotions,
00:21:09.98\00:21:14.06
mild depression. The
psychiatric literature
00:21:14.09\00:21:17.46
says exercise is an
effective strategy for
00:21:17.49\00:21:21.57
dealing with these
negative mental thoughts.
00:21:21.60\00:21:23.77
So, as we look at God's program,
00:21:24.20\00:21:26.06
God's lifestyle approaches,
we look at the way God
00:21:26.12\00:21:29.00
created man and
woman to function.
00:21:29.03\00:21:31.59
We find that there is
this interrelated program,
00:21:31.62\00:21:34.27
where the things
that we were doing,
00:21:34.60\00:21:36.56
the things that we
we're thinking are all
00:21:36.59\00:21:39.07
ministering hope
in different ways.
00:21:39.10\00:21:41.86
Now as a surgeon Dr. Clark,
I have to ask this question
00:21:43.57\00:21:47.51
because you know the
patients you mentioned
00:21:47.55\00:21:52.42
if they don't have much
hope often don't do as well
00:21:52.45\00:21:55.28
in the surgery, I
know you had a lot
00:21:55.31\00:21:57.45
of surgical training
and you've trained under
00:21:57.48\00:22:00.98
lots of surgeons
did you ever sense that
00:22:01.01\00:22:03.51
one of the doctor's
training you didn't have much
00:22:03.54\00:22:06.57
confidence in a
procedure he or she was doing?
00:22:06.60\00:22:09.76
Yes, I sure did, I
remember one time we were doing
00:22:09.79\00:22:12.90
a spine surgery, we would take
00:22:12.93\00:22:17.00
and do a patient perhaps
we are going to the front
00:22:17.03\00:22:19.61
in the morning and
change the spine around
00:22:19.64\00:22:21.75
from the front flip him over
and eat lunch and then come back
00:22:21.78\00:22:24.58
and do the back. One
time we were doing this
00:22:24.61\00:22:27.14
and we were doing this
big surgery on the back
00:22:27.17\00:22:28.69
and the attending
we're sitting there working
00:22:28.72\00:22:30.48
on stuff and there was a lot
of scar tissue, about half way
00:22:30.51\00:22:33.65
through he looked up
and said well you know,
00:22:33.68\00:22:36.62
let's just leave that
I'll get that next time
00:22:36.65\00:22:38.29
when we come back.
Wow! I said next time
00:22:38.32\00:22:41.37
when we come back.
Did you actually say that
00:22:41.40\00:22:43.81
or you're just
thinking this. Oh! I said that.
00:22:43.84\00:22:45.75
And so he said well
yeah you know these folks
00:22:45.78\00:22:49.58
they keep coming back
and so I kind of thought
00:22:49.61\00:22:52.73
well why, you know I
would go for a full cure,
00:22:52.76\00:22:55.30
I wouldn't know if
I would go for it all,
00:22:55.33\00:22:57.69
but yeah he didn't have
confidence that this was going
00:22:57.72\00:23:00.55
to be the home run this time.
00:23:00.58\00:23:02.39
You know, so it's interesting.
00:23:02.42\00:23:04.19
Whatever we are doing
whether we are the treating
00:23:04.22\00:23:07.88
person as the
physician if we don't have much
00:23:07.91\00:23:10.36
hope in what we are
doing, much confidence,
00:23:10.39\00:23:12.83
it's going to effect what we do.
00:23:12.86\00:23:14.19
Yeah, yeah. So, really there are
00:23:14.22\00:23:18.34
some implications as
far as the doctor, patient
00:23:18.37\00:23:20.71
relationship for the
patient aren't there.
00:23:20.74\00:23:22.53
Oh! Definitely in
fact, they've done studies
00:23:22.56\00:23:25.26
on physicians who are
well using a Placebo effect
00:23:25.29\00:23:30.59
perhaps in the
way they communicate
00:23:30.62\00:23:32.23
with a patient. So
they start a patient
00:23:32.26\00:23:34.60
out with a treatment regimen,
00:23:34.63\00:23:36.79
they set him home.
The patient comes back
00:23:36.82\00:23:38.50
as soon as a
patients coming through
00:23:38.53\00:23:40.28
the door, they look at oh hi,
00:23:40.31\00:23:42.59
George, boy you're looking good,
00:23:42.62\00:23:44.33
look at that spring
in your step come on in,
00:23:44.36\00:23:47.10
good to see and
they start positively
00:23:47.13\00:23:49.68
reinforcing that
the person looks better
00:23:49.71\00:23:52.77
and as a person comes
in, they are told they are
00:23:52.80\00:23:56.29
looking better
and whether or not
00:23:56.32\00:23:57.96
they are better or not by
time they're going out you
00:23:57.99\00:24:00.51
know, they feel
better. And there is actually
00:24:00.54\00:24:03.41
some benefit to
that. So you're saying
00:24:03.44\00:24:05.51
that doctors should
be dishonest in dealing
00:24:05.54\00:24:07.36
with their patients? You know,
00:24:07.39\00:24:08.86
it's a big question
there, is it dishonesty
00:24:08.89\00:24:10.93
or is it part of the therapy.
00:24:10.96\00:24:12.84
So, maybe we
would say it this way,
00:24:12.87\00:24:15.43
because we know
that God desires truth
00:24:15.46\00:24:17.76
in the inward
parts. Yes. We don't want
00:24:17.79\00:24:19.73
to give any
suggestion in this program,
00:24:19.76\00:24:23.19
we're counting
and saying deception,
00:24:23.22\00:24:25.57
but what I hear you
saying Dr. Clark is if I
00:24:25.60\00:24:28.80
see something
positive with a patient,
00:24:28.83\00:24:31.31
it would behoove me
to emphasize the positive
00:24:31.34\00:24:35.19
rather than the negative.
Certainly, that's correct.
00:24:35.22\00:24:38.08
And so we would say
we're helping to harness
00:24:38.11\00:24:40.82
the person's own
resources as far as healing.
00:24:40.85\00:24:44.08
That's correct.
So, presumably whether
00:24:44.11\00:24:46.49
I'm a doctor or
not, most of the people
00:24:46.52\00:24:49.15
tuning into the show
today presumably are not
00:24:49.18\00:24:52.90
physicians can they utilize
the same thing in dealing
00:24:52.93\00:24:55.26
with family members who
are dealing with illness
00:24:55.48\00:24:57.54
and problems can they accentuate
00:24:57.57\00:24:59.63
the positive and expect
that hope is more likely
00:24:59.66\00:25:02.54
to occur and result
better medical outcomes even.
00:25:02.57\00:25:05.21
Oh! Yeah. You
know, I had a teacher
00:25:05.80\00:25:07.87
in high school
who was quite a talker
00:25:07.90\00:25:09.87
and he had a sister
that was quite suggestible
00:25:09.90\00:25:13.32
and he went home
to her house one day
00:25:13.35\00:25:17.04
and after about half
hour of talking to her
00:25:17.07\00:25:20.59
and telling her
she didn't look good,
00:25:20.62\00:25:21.81
she crawled in
bad and fell sick.
00:25:21.84\00:25:23.62
Wow. Then he turned
around and for another half hour
00:25:23.65\00:25:26.73
told her how
good she is looking,
00:25:26.76\00:25:27.81
how she must be feeling
better, talked her right
00:25:27.84\00:25:29.73
back out of bed. You know,
00:25:29.76\00:25:31.77
I don't suggest
that, but it's just showing
00:25:31.80\00:25:35.47
the power of suggestibility
00:25:35.50\00:25:36.95
and how people minds
work. So really, as we speak
00:25:36.98\00:25:41.50
about things like Placebos,
things that often have been
00:25:41.53\00:25:46.50
kind of put down by
the medical community.
00:25:46.53\00:25:49.49
We now see that
medical scientists
00:25:49.52\00:25:52.24
who are saying hope
is a powerful healing
00:25:52.27\00:25:55.09
agency and we're trying
to find ways that we can
00:25:55.12\00:25:57.83
harness the power
of hope. God does that
00:25:57.86\00:26:00.68
through his word,
but he also does it
00:26:00.71\00:26:02.80
through simple natural remedies.
00:26:02.83\00:26:04.41
And Dr. Clark,
I know you've been
00:26:04.44\00:26:06.49
an advocate of
using some of these simple
00:26:06.52\00:26:08.69
natural remedies.
I have interviewed
00:26:08.72\00:26:10.89
you in the past
dealing with things
00:26:10.92\00:26:12.65
like the bird flu,
you've talked about
00:26:12.68\00:26:15.18
how theoretically
there maybe things that would
00:26:15.21\00:26:17.99
benefit the immune system
00:26:18.02\00:26:19.44
and you've
looked at the literature
00:26:19.47\00:26:21.31
and talked about
fruits and vegetables
00:26:21.34\00:26:24.02
and their healing properties.
00:26:24.05\00:26:25.37
The critics might say
well there is no proof
00:26:25.40\00:26:28.34
that these
really help in bird flu,
00:26:28.37\00:26:30.10
but I am wondering
you know in the light
00:26:30.13\00:26:32.47
of our discussion
today is there something
00:26:32.50\00:26:35.55
that's empowering
just to go through the
00:26:35.58\00:26:37.95
medical
literature and give people
00:26:37.98\00:26:40.37
some suggestions
that won't hurt them,
00:26:40.40\00:26:42.32
but there is some
basis for thinking
00:26:42.35\00:26:44.89
they might help. Oh! Definitely,
00:26:44.92\00:26:47.20
and you know if
people went into the bird flu
00:26:47.23\00:26:50.37
thinking that if the
day you got it you were
00:26:50.40\00:26:52.25
doomed, a lot
more would be doomed
00:26:52.28\00:26:54.96
or as if they came
into thinking you know,
00:26:54.99\00:26:57.11
there are treatment
options, there is a history
00:26:57.14\00:26:59.63
of people surviving the
flu given these treatment
00:26:59.66\00:27:02.97
options then they can
go in and do the treatments
00:27:03.00\00:27:06.30
that have been used in the past
00:27:06.33\00:27:07.67
and feel confident
that they have a chance
00:27:07.70\00:27:10.39
of survival. Amazing, no matter
00:27:10.42\00:27:13.64
whether we're
dealing with chronic diseases
00:27:13.67\00:27:15.85
or modern infectious scourges.
00:27:15.88\00:27:18.72
The medical literature
is saying that our mental
00:27:18.75\00:27:21.08
outlook has a profound effect
00:27:21.11\00:27:23.16
on whether we would get well
00:27:23.19\00:27:24.67
or whether we
will not. God's word
00:27:24.70\00:27:27.16
ministers hope to
us, but it can't minister
00:27:27.19\00:27:30.12
that hope unless we
as Dr. Clark pointed out
00:27:30.15\00:27:33.16
internalize it,
unless we trust him,
00:27:33.19\00:27:35.07
unless we believe
his gracious promises.
00:27:35.10\00:27:38.14
We encourage you
to take God's words
00:27:38.17\00:27:41.19
seriously, as you
deal with challenges
00:27:41.22\00:27:44.30
in life, focus on the positive
00:27:44.33\00:27:46.40
and as you interact with others
00:27:46.43\00:27:48.03
and as you choose
your health care providers,
00:27:48.06\00:27:50.17
choose those that
minister hope to you,
00:27:50.20\00:27:52.98
choose those that
emphasize the positive
00:27:53.01\00:27:55.18
and do the same work yourself
00:27:55.21\00:27:57.22
Look to other people
give them a cheerful word
00:27:57.76\00:28:00.53
a steady shake of the
hand and a prayer for healing
00:28:00.56\00:28:04.96
will go a long way
not only through God's
00:28:04.99\00:28:07.00
supernatural power,
but through natural law.
00:28:07.03\00:28:09.38