Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host)<\br> 01. Dr. David Wilkins<\br> 02. Jay Gallimore
Series Code: UC
Program Code: UC000407
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00:24 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome to another 3ABN Up Close
00:29 We're coming to you from the Fort Worth First Seventh Day 00:33 Adventist Church in Fort Worth, Texas. 00:35 And we thank you for joining us. 00:38 We also like to thank our live audience, for joining us today 00:42 in this program 00:43 Today we are going to be discussing a struggle that 00:47 many of you are probably going through right now. 00:50 Our topic is: Facing The Tough Times 00:53 You know tragedy will eventually confront all of us 00:58 It's not a matter of "if" but "when" 01:02 When we have to face the tough times it often happens suddenly 01:08 and unexpectedly. 01:10 A job loss might throw our lives into chaos, 01:13 and we find ourselves facing an economic crisis. 01:17 A serious health challenge can crop up and just changes 01:22 our lives immediately. 01:23 We might become the victim of an accident, or a violent crime. 01:29 For too many of us is facing the unexpected death 01:33 of a loved one. 01:34 Whatever the crisis might be, it can sometimes cause us to 01:40 struggle with the concept of God's power and love. 01:44 In the midst of our trial we might find ourselves questioning 01:49 the character of the Creator God. 01:52 Our first guest today faced the crisis that would certainly 01:57 create for many people feelings of anger toward God. 02:02 Dr. David Wilkins has joined us from Riverside, California 02:08 Dr. Wilkins and his wife Janet were proud parents of 4 children 02:13 They rejoiced when their youngest son Monty, 02:17 filled with passion and zeal for the Lord was baptized on the day 02:23 of his high school graduation 02:24 Now, the Wilkins had a family tradition 02:27 of spending a year of study abroad 02:30 And Monty planned his academic adventure in France. 02:34 Dr. Wilkins remembers the day his son left 02:38 and here is what happened next. 02:41 It was about 6.30 Pacific Standard Time and we were on 02:45 final process here at the airport. 02:46 I mentioned to my wife that at that particular moment our son 02:50 Monty headed from New York to Geneva would be over 02:53 the Atlantic Ocean 02:54 I had no idea at that moment the drama that was being played out 02:59 in the cockpit of the airplane 4000 miles away 03:02 An hour later we were making small talk at a friend's home in 03:06 the Seattle area when the phone rang. 03:08 My son-in-law Dan in a very serious voice said to me: 03:14 A plane is got down from New York to Geneva 03:18 Was it Monty's airplane do you think? 03:21 I had no idea what he was talking about. 03:23 And I..., he said... well, why don't you turn on CNN? 03:28 I spoke to our host and I asked him to turn on the television 03:33 and while that was going on, I asked my wife what Monty's 03:37 flight number was 03:39 She could not remember the number, but she remembered that 03:42 that morning she has sent a communication to the school 03:45 to pick him up, and the flight number had two ones in it. 03:49 As the TV came on, it was nonstop coverage from CNN 03:54 and the flight number was on the screen 03:56 Swiss Air Flight 111 03:58 And at that moment it donned on us that was Monty's airplane 04:03 And unless he had missed it, this was likely his flight. 04:08 At that moment it sort of like being stung of an electric prod 04:13 it's just, it's incomprehensible moment 04:16 and my immediate reaction was, because the initial report 04:20 showing that there was a massive emergency vehicles and like 04:24 they did mention that a possibility of survivors 04:27 being a surgeon and being someone who tries to fix things 04:32 my initial reaction was to call the airlines get on a plane and 04:35 go rescue my son out of the North Atlantic myself 04:39 I just had to do something, I needed to be there. 04:44 Can you imagine hearing to such a tragedy over the television? 04:48 Now suddenly, everything about his son's life came 04:53 flatting back to David. 04:54 It was as if he was trying to remember every detail of 04:59 Monty's existence. 05:01 Here is what he told us about his young son. 05:04 Monty was a really, a little bit of a quiet kid, but he was 05:10 fun loving, he had a great sense of humor 05:13 He loved sports. 05:15 Being a lover of sports myself and having done that a lot in 05:20 my life we had so much in common We did everything together. 05:23 He was adventuresome and loved to have experiences 05:29 to make memories. 05:30 When he was 18 he was baptized and gave his heart to the Lord. 05:35 It was such a comfort to watch Monty's spiritual growth 05:39 during those 15 months between his baptism and his accident 05:42 On one occasion, about 4 months before the accident 05:45 we were conversing and he told me, he said: 05:47 You know, everything is ok with me and the Lord 05:50 and I'm not afraid to die 05:53 You know, I was not able to say that as comfortably as he 05:58 for about 53 years of my life 06:01 And I found that rather extraordinary for a kid, 06:05 19 years old, to have listen to the voice of Jesus say: 06:11 Monty, I want to be your friend 06:13 And Monty respond with such a deep response 06:18 I want to be Your friend 06:19 And they walked this road together 06:21 I can still remember. I think it was ABC doing 06:24 a news cast and focusing on one of his friends 06:27 And his friend looked right into the camera and said 06:31 Monty loved the Lord, and he told me about it. 06:35 That was rather remarkable. 06:38 And as we sat and listened to his friends and his teachers 06:43 from college began to speak of him, some things began to emerge 06:48 about him, that parents don't often get to know, are not to 06:51 because it occurs on whole different frame of reference 06:55 in the dormitory, in the classroom, etc 06:57 And we discovered that Monty was a very inclusive child 07:01 inclusive young man now, he was 19. 07:04 I guess child would not be the right word 07:08 People who were not popular, talented or athletic 07:11 he felt like they needed to be part of his world. 07:16 Just 19 years old, and he had such assurance of salvation 07:21 that he wasn't afraid to die. 07:24 What a wonderful assurance that must have given to his family 07:29 later on. 07:30 I'd like you to help me welcome dr. David Wilkins to our program 07:43 Thank you for being here today. 07:45 We so appreciate it. 07:47 You know, as the Wilkins family struggled to make sense of 07:51 this terrible tragedy they were faced with some deep questions 07:55 Where was God in all of this tragedy? 07:58 Why hadn't He protected their son? 08:01 But the Holy Spirit was very close to them throughout the day 08:05 And here is how David described what happened 08:11 Well, those, first few days we just sat and sobbed and cried 08:15 and held each other and tried to make sense out of something 08:21 that's nonsense. 08:22 You know, you're just hopeless and helpless. 08:26 and you just... It reminds me of a cartoon I saw one time 08:30 of a cat with its claws on a fence, clinging for dear life 08:35 to something. 08:37 You cling to the Lord. You don't understand Him. 08:40 You don't understand His providence or His control. 08:44 You don't understand the circumstances. 08:46 You can't believe your eyes and your ears. 08:49 But something leads you to trust His heart. 08:52 And I had to cling to that. 08:55 I mean, there is a song called "Trust His heart" 08:58 It says when you don't understand and you can't see 09:01 His plan and you can't trace His hand, you can trust His heart. 09:06 And right now I had to be able to stand up with that 09:10 Sinter in the movie of the robe said at the end 09:14 when he discovers forgiveness I guess he reasons back 09:16 for having nailed Jesus to the cross 09:18 He says: From this day forward I'm giving my sword, my fortune 09:26 and my life 09:28 And I have to say to the Lord today I give Him my sword, 09:33 my courage and strength 09:35 My fortune, what little I have and my life as well as 09:40 those who I love, because I can trust His heart 09:43 And is taken a few years to get to that 09:47 and we cling to that hope: Jesus is the answer 09:54 You know David, you mentioned about clinging to hope 09:59 Hebrews 6:19 says that God has given us this hope as an anchor 10:04 for our soul and I am so glad that you and your family 10:07 had that anchor in place before this terrible tragedy 10:11 You wrote such a beautiful book: United In Tragedy 10:15 about your journey through this experience 10:18 There is one thing in the book that really, 10:21 the whole book moved me. 10:23 But something that was so interesting was how different 10:26 people in your family reacted in different ways to their grief 10:32 And something that, a story that truly moved me was a story 10:36 about your youngest daughter, Marcy 10:38 and the terrible anger that she was feeling 10:42 And she had such great frustration 10:45 Now, when you went to Nova Scotia, 10:48 where the plain had gone down off of that border 10:52 something happened one night in your hotel room 10:56 with a pastor and his wife 10:58 Could you please, share that with us? 11:01 Yeah, Marcy was a very emotional young lady 11:07 and she didn't feel that this should happen to her brother 11:10 and she felt free to express that anger which became 11:16 significant enough. At one time I thought I lost two children 11:20 She was so angry. 11:22 And we arrived in Nova Scotia 11:25 There was a lot of confusion as they excused guests that were 11:29 in the hotel and made room for families of the victims to all 11:32 stand one place, so they can secure the place 11:35 and as we finally got to our motel room 11:38 there was a phone number there. 11:39 It was the phone number of the local pastor and his wife 11:42 They wanted to come and see us that evening 11:44 and not feeling like we wanted to see anybody 11:48 just using our son being in a strange place 11:51 knowing nobody, but because he extended himself, 11:55 we figured we would honor that and invited him to our room 11:58 and he and his wife came to the door wind by the men 12:01 There weren't many chairs in the room, so we were sitting 12:04 around the edge of the bed and standing against the wall and 12:06 sitting on the floor. 12:07 And Marcy was sitting on the floor with her back against the 12:12 dresser and this pastor started to interact with her 12:18 and it became very quickly that this wasn't going anywhere. 12:22 She was having none of it 12:25 And went on just a few minutes and his quiet wife was standing 12:33 over in a corner. 12:35 She listened patiently until she'd had enough. 12:38 And she walked over to Marcy and stood right in front of her 12:42 She said: Marcy can I take your hand? 12:43 And she reached down to take her hand. 12:45 And she looked right in the eyes, and she said: Marcy, 12:49 I know what is like to be angry. 12:53 I was in such a rage here this last week 12:55 I ran into the shower, slammed the door, and screamed 12:58 for what seemed like 30 minutes. 13:01 And she paused and she said: Marcy, my son is in jail 13:07 for molesting children. 13:08 Then she said: Marcy, he will be released in 6 months. 13:16 And he is not sorry. 13:19 And then she added words that can be the most wrenching for 13:26 any mother to say 13:27 She said: Marcy, I'm his mother. 13:29 And it would be better if he would gone 13:34 than to do that. 13:39 It was dead silence, just like it is in this room 13:42 Yes. 13:44 She didn't just speak to Marcy. 13:46 She spoke to me. 13:48 Because I was angry too. 13:50 Sure. 13:51 Here is this quiet moment. 13:54 And that moment said more to my family than any counselor 14:00 any member of the faith community 14:04 anyone else could have said 14:05 And I have to tell you, several weeks later 14:11 I heard my daughter standing in front of the college classmates 14:14 at Walla-Walla College and say almost tearfully 14:20 I'm not angry anymore 14:22 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! 14:24 She said: I can sing "Amazing Grace" 14:27 as well with my soul 14:28 and I back up an angry tears. 14:30 Praise God! 14:32 So Marcy's doing well today. 14:33 That's wonderful! 14:35 I think that the reason this ministered so much to you 14:39 this comment, I believe you bring this out in the book 14:43 is that you suddenly realized there are worse tragedies 14:48 you had the hope, knowing your son Monty's walk with the Lord 14:53 you had the hope of spending eternity with him 14:57 But if your son, if the circumstances were different 15:04 and it was your son in prison for such a thing 15:06 it would be a far greater loss, because you knew that 15:11 if he remained in that condition, it will all be over 15:15 someday. 15:16 You know, one of Monty's classmates that was mentioned 15:18 in the voice clip said in that same sequence 15:21 he said: there is a paper laying on the table in front of him 15:25 with Monty's picture and the camera found his eyes 15:27 he said: This happened to the wrong guy 15:33 Did it? 15:34 Who needs more time, 15:36 Amen. 15:37 to turn to the Lord and discover His friendship? 15:40 and His forgiveness. 15:41 The child of God who says I'm not afraid to die, 15:44 everything is well with me 15:46 or one who needs time to find the Lord 15:50 Dr. Wilkins, I was truly moved by your book. 15:54 when I picked it up, from the moment I just read the first 15:58 word, I didn't sit it down until I finished it. 16:00 And you used the term frequently 16:03 the reluctant fraternity. 16:06 There is many people who have joint the reluctant fraternity 16:11 I like you to explain it, just a moment, but I will also like 16:16 you to tell us what have you learn through this experience 16:21 about reaching out to others who are facing 16:24 the type of grieve that you made through 16:27 Well, let me explain the reluctant fraternity phrase 16:30 In fact, that was the title I chose for my book 16:34 But the publishers had other ideas 16:35 They thought it could be misinterpreted in some way, but 16:38 it still captures the idea that there is a community of people 16:43 who are bought together by common experience 16:45 not of their choice. 16:47 And then as the community grows and the membership 16:52 in that community grows, 16:54 an enormous capacity grows 16:55 through life experience and how God helps you go that experience 17:02 Really changes kingdom, to build His kingdom 17:07 and not waste that experience 17:10 So there is an enormous responsibility and capacity 17:13 that comes with, only 6 years later can say this, 17:17 to be trusted with a tragedy like this. 17:20 It's a good way to say it. 17:22 Something that stroked me, you went through this experience 17:27 with a couple hundred other families 17:29 absolutely 17:31 and part of your healing process happened 17:34 the very first time you went to Nova Scotia 17:37 when you reached out to bring someone else into your circle 17:42 you have what? 9 people? 17:43 My kids and their spouses and myself, there were 9 of us there 17:48 What a support group! 17:49 Yes! 17:50 A whole church family like is in this room 17:52 to lift us and support us 17:56 but it was not so for some 17:58 you know, I encounter a lady at the elevator 18:03 the first morning we were there 18:04 and we were both waiting for the elevator 18:07 and she was pretty..., she was not in a very good shape and I 18:10 walked up and I put my arm around her, I saw 18:12 her tag I knew she was a parent 18:14 of somebody who had perished; it turned out to be her 18:16 18 year old daughter Lou Anna 18:18 This was Nancy White and she says: I have no one 18:23 My dog died this year, my mother died this year 18:27 and my daughter and I had a big disagreement 18:31 before I got on the airplane, so our last time together 18:34 was stressed 18:35 I'm alone 18:38 And I just wrapped her in my arms, gave this big hug 18:41 and we adopted her into our family 18:42 And she is in, part of our family even today 18:46 We stay in close touch with her 18:48 I praise God that He gave you such grace at a moment, 18:53 you know grieve is a very private thing, but I 18:55 praise the Lord that you opened your arms 18:57 When you're hurting and you want to heal, 18:59 touch another hurting person 19:00 That's a good advice 19:02 It reacts back on you in ways that you cannot imagine 19:04 Because that was the beginning about healing 19:07 Give and it shall be given to you, yes 19:10 The measure you use would be measured back to you 19:12 Coming up next, will discuss some of the common reactions 19:17 to sudden tragedy, as well as what we can do to prepare for 19:21 such an event in our own life, so please don't go away. 19:33 We are going to be talking about workaholics. We certainly are 19:37 We're going to be talking about balancing work and family 19:41 and more specifically about balancing our lives, 19:45 so we don't end up being workaholics 19:47 And I was working 9-5 I guess, for my dad, 5-9 at the mall 19:54 with my friends, and Saturday and Sundays 19:57 But the more I worked, the more people acknowledged what I did 20:00 the better I felt for a while 20:02 When we don't understand the purpose for our life 20:06 and then our priorities get mixed up 20:12 Next week on Up Close 20:14 Don't miss it! 20:27 Welcome back to Up Close 20:30 We're talking today about facing the tough times 20:34 and what we can do to help ourselves and others get through 20:38 these tough times. 20:39 We want to welcome our special guest: Pastor Jay Gallimore who 20:44 is President of the Michigan Conference of Seventh Day 20:47 Adventists 20:48 And as a leader of the Conference of churches, 20:51 Jay is often called on to help people who are facing these 20:57 tough times and may be questioning the love of God 21:01 Let's welcome pastor Gallimore 21:03 Pastor, it's good to have you here 21:06 Good to be here. 21:11 I'm so glad you could join us today. 21:14 I just want to cut right to the chase. 21:16 Don't you think in many ways is natural to question God 21:22 when such tragedy comes into our lives unexpectedly 21:28 Well, Shelly I do. 21:30 I don't think there is a human being around, that doesn't say 21:34 Lord, what's going on here? 21:36 Amen. 21:37 What's happening here? Why? 21:39 Am I in this kind of a thing? So, I think it's natural 21:43 to question. And these questions are important 21:47 And they are important because there is an opportunity now 21:50 for God to speak. 21:52 There is no time when we listen so intently as to when we just 21:58 heard flight 111 may be down. 22:03 Then, we say, Lord- and we are all ears to hear. 22:08 You know, any time that I hear the tragedy, I always pray 22:13 and ask the Lord to be there to comfort the people, but also 22:18 I ask Him: Father send many people with the love of Jesus 22:26 that can reach out and touch these who are mourning 22:29 And something like that happened to David. 22:32 David, I just wanted to ask you I know that you and your family 22:36 went to the lighthouse where you were going to have 22:41 a little ceremony for your son 22:43 and something happened on the beach when a young pastor 22:47 actually a priest came up to you and read a very special psalm 22:52 Could you tell us a little bit about what happened that day? 22:56 Yes, there were hundreds of us, family members, 23:00 who had been taken there in a bus convoy 23:02 we had been briefed in a tent about how to avoid the press 23:06 and in an organized way we had our moment at the beach, 23:10 for our loved one. 23:11 And believe it or not it was on a beautiful Sabbath morning. 23:14 You could see the ships up there picking up debris. 23:17 You could see the helicopters running their grids 23:20 And it was in that atmosphere, we were finally had our time 23:26 and our family proceeded down to as far next to the water, 23:31 as we can get, as they would let us go 23:33 And we were just getting ready to, we kind of decided what we 23:37 were going to do, and we were getting ready 23:40 and a young captain came up to us who had a collar on, who was 23:45 turned around the opposite way, and he didn't identify himself 23:49 He just simply said: Are you fox Christians? 23:52 And we said: Yes, we are. 23:54 And he said, very, almost in a shaky voice 23:57 Would you mind if I read Scripture to you and pray 23:59 with you? 24:00 And we said: we would be delighted 24:02 And he opened his Bible and he read Psalm 77 24:06 Just to give you a flavor of that chapter 24:09 in one sentence, the last sentence in the first half 24:13 of that chapter, says: Where is God when I need Him? 24:17 When I needed him most He went on vacation 24:20 in the words of the Message Bible 24:21 I felt a little bit like that at the moment 24:25 At any rate, go home and read Psalm 77 tonight, 24:29 knowing the setting and it will mean a lot more to you, but 24:32 at any rate he did pray with us and read, and then 24:35 we had little song sheets and we began to sing, 24:38 as a sort of a family choir 24:40 Your wife Janet had printed this off and had them 24:45 printed off all the verses and we were going to take our time 24:50 there and sing praises in front of a fairly sizeable group 24:54 above us on the rocks 24:56 Because they were bringing one family at a time 24:59 This is a rather dangerous area where are some rogue waves 25:03 that would come, right? 25:04 That's right. They had the Canadian military 25:06 there, to keep us at safe distance. 25:08 And what was fascinating is that this captain turned out 25:12 to be a catholic chaplain in the Canadian military 25:17 and he wrote of this experience to his superior 25:21 and his superior published it in some publication 25:24 And when that was published, somebody sent it to me 25:28 in the mail. I can't even remember who. 25:30 And I finally found out the man's name 25:32 Is captain John O' O'Donnell 25:35 And he's become my fast friend 25:39 Praise the Lord. 25:40 But I never met him by name until a year later when 25:42 he participated in helping us enterer my son's remains 25:46 I think in a little bit we'd like to come back and read 25:49 may be a part of that letter 25:50 But at this time you were still quite angry confused bewildered 25:58 maybe is a better word 26:00 How do we get past that stage of, there is a time in my life 26:08 when I shook my fists at the face of God 26:12 and said: You promised me these type of things wouldn't happen 26:18 I thought He did anyway 26:19 But, how do we get past that stage when we are in such grief 26:25 what are some of the steps? 26:27 But first we all need to start before the tragedy happens and 26:30 that's already been eluded to so nicely. 26:32 And I think in the book you noted that it's like an anchor 26:36 if you try to put an anchor down in the mist of a storm 26:39 it's very difficult. 26:42 But if the anchor it's already in place before the storm hits 26:46 then you're going to be held in a good way 26:50 The trouble is that many people put off trying to get to know 26:55 the Lord until they are hit with something 26:57 And I think that probably it's may be the tragedy of youth 27:01 misconception of youth that feel like they are model that 27:05 nothing is going to happen to them and 27:06 of course you mentioned in your introduction it's not a matter 27:09 of if something is going to happen to you. 27:11 It's really only a matter of when. 27:13 Every human being because of what sin has done, 27:16 because the environment we live in 27:19 because of the good grace of God 27:22 knowing that He has to allow certain things to happen to us 27:26 in order to shape us for what's going to happen 27:30 So I think the first answer I'd like to say, and it doesn't mean 27:33 you can't get the anchor down in the mist of the storm 27:35 but people need to know the Lord and to call unto Lord while 27:40 He can be found as the Scripture says 27:42 before something hits 27:45 Number 1- get that anchor down early with the lord Jesus 27:49 And then I think, you know once you're in a tragedy 27:54 everything, once you're in a difficult situation 27:58 It's never like the book says it will be 28:00 The emotions are there, it's a lot of confusion 28:05 and those kinds of thing 28:07 And I know we say this so lightly but the truth is we just 28:13 have to trust the Lord through all of that 28:16 Another statement you mentioned earlier, doctor 28:19 that I really appreciate in the book 28:21 was that you have to trust His heart 28:24 Amen 28:25 You know in the, when everything doesn't make any sense 28:29 you have to trust His heart 28:30 And then I think this sounds odd 28:33 but I think one of the greatest things that helps me through 28:37 difficulty is to start praising God for how have seen Him act 28:41 in different ways 28:42 Amen 28:43 I also found, your wife had a wonderful view of this 28:47 what I like about your book, it's a journey through 28:52 your discovery of I've a quote here that I want to read 28:56 in a few minutes. 28:57 About the fact that God is in control of our lives 29:02 we don't want, first we don't really get in control 29:05 we say as Christians, oh yes we sing the song I surrender all 29:08 and I've sang it for many years 29:10 It's a wonderful song, but are we really willing to let the 29:15 Lord have full control of my life? 29:18 and that means in my everyday affairs 29:21 am I willing, we don't like this word I know 29:24 are we willing to let the Lord be our Master and 29:27 and we be a slave 29:29 and, so now we're running out of time this first section, but 29:32 at some point I want to come back and talk about the fact 29:37 that nothing can touch us, except that the Lord permits it 29:42 Amen 29:43 Are we really cool with that? 29:45 Does that mean that the nails in Christ hand, 29:49 part of the will of God? 29:50 Well, we should answer that question. 29:54 You know, we would like to, when we come back 29:57 we're going to read Psalm 77 from the book as well, because 30:00 the Message interpretation, really is great. 30:04 But, the thought that I had is that, when you said 30:10 Trust His heart! Proverbs 3:5.6 says: Trust in the Lord with all 30:16 of your heart and lean not on your own understanding 30:19 If we're not going to lean on our understanding, 30:22 who are we going to lean on? 30:25 The Word of God, His understanding. 30:28 And I believe, doctor, you'd surely admit and agree 30:33 that as difficult as this was to go through, it would've been 30:38 impossible without God. 30:40 Amen. 30:41 Well, facing a sudden death in the family 30:44 is a very difficult event. 30:46 But, what about those who are diagnosed with a disease 30:51 that brings prolonged suffering and pain? 30:55 We've visited pastor Dan and Kay Collins 30:58 from Battle Creek, Michigan recently, and pastor Collins was 31:02 an evangelist for over 30 years 31:05 last summer though, he was diagnosed with cancer 31:09 and given only 3-6 month to live. 31:13 But as you will see in this interview, a wonderful peace 31:17 just flooded and surrounded this couple in the time of 31:22 their trial 31:23 A peace that can only come from a deep relationship 31:28 and faith in God 31:29 So, listen to this: 31:32 I'm 64 years old. I may live to be 65, I may not. 31:38 That's few months away. 31:40 The important thing is not how long I live. 31:44 Is the quality of life that I've had. 31:49 Which is been absolutely second to none. 31:53 I can tell you, from laying in this bed 31:57 the things that are going to be most precious 32:01 are going to be the times that you spend with your mate 32:09 the times that you spent searching 32:13 for others 32:18 the times that you spent digging out God's will 32:27 for your lifestyle 32:33 those are the vitals 32:35 To know Him, to draw close to your mate 32:40 and be committed to doing it. 32:44 I think that's what is the chemistry for coming to the 32:50 end of the road and having peace 32:55 Peace. As we listened to pastor Collins we were again impressed 33:00 that in the last days of his life, he still had a burden 33:05 to share what he had found, the hope that he had found, 33:10 in Jesus Christ with those who are hurting 33:14 He opened his heart to us and explained how this ministry 33:19 had prepared him for his own illness. 33:23 I've been in the ministry for 35 years 33:27 evangelism for 35 means a lot of sick beds 33:30 a lot of cancer dying people 33:34 and I've seen a lot of fear 33:37 I've seen a lot of concern, a lot of breakdowns 33:42 a lot of tears. 33:43 And I wish you could have some understand 33:47 as has been through the years by one of my biggest convictions 33:55 one of my biggest burdens have been in ministry that 34:00 God's given me: How can I transmit to this person 34:07 walking down death highway, that their attitude 34:14 and their approach to it can change if they would come to 34:21 the Scripture, virtually realizing that God has given us 34:27 hope in the Scripture. 34:31 We're so privileged to have captured this testimony of 34:35 pastor Dan Collins. 34:36 Less than a month after our interview this precious man of 34:41 God, went to his rest and his wife Kay asked us to share 34:45 this video. It's a clip that memorializes Dan's faith 34:50 to the end and brings glory to God. 34:52 Jay, you know Kay personally. How is she doing since Dan 34:57 passed away? 34:58 Well, Kay's trust is in the Lord and she is doing good. 35:03 And all she can think about is who she can win next to the Lord 35:08 And she wants to have a part in the closing work of 35:12 the coming of the Lord. 35:14 she is going to do and she is doing it right now 35:16 Praise God! 35:17 You know, it's amazing, her strength. She lost her mother 35:19 right after Dan, so sometimes you think about when it rains 35:22 it pours, but through it all she just kept smiling 35:25 and putting that trust in the Lord Jesus 35:27 Reminds me of Psalm 3:3 that says that God is the lifter of 35:31 heads. I love that verse. 35:33 I just love that verse. 35:35 Now, we promised our viewers and listeners that 35:38 we would read Psalm 77 from the Message Bible, that's 35:42 included in this beautiful book: United by Tragedy 35:45 by dr. David Wilkins 35:47 Would you read that to us, please. 35:49 Yes, I'm going just to read a portion for second time here, 35:52 but I heard coming is coming. 35:54 Will the Lord walk off and leave us for good? Will He never 35:56 smile again? 35:58 Is his love worn threadbare? Has his salvation promise 36:01 burned out? 36:03 Has God forgotten his manners? Has he walked off and stalked 36:09 off and left us? 36:10 Just my luck," I said. "The High God goes out of 36:11 business just when I need Him. " 36:13 Once again I'll go over what Yahweh has done, 36:17 there is the thankfulness coming, the gratefulness. 36:20 In the midst of tragedy I will lay out on the table 36:22 the ancient wonders; 36:24 I'll ponder all the things You've accomplished, 36:26 and give a long, loving look at Your acts. 36:31 That is crucial in the midst of difficulty 36:35 It's just trying to say: what has God done in the past? 36:37 what has He done? 36:39 O God! Your way is holy! No god is great like God! 36:43 You are the God who makes things happen. 36:45 You showed everyone what You can do 36:47 You pulled your people out of the worst kind of trouble, 36:49 and rescued the children of Jacob and Joseph. 36:51 And then he talked more about the awesomeness of the ocean 36:54 and he closes with this: 36:55 You rode, You strode right through the Ocean, 36:59 walked straight through roaring Ocean, but nobody saw 37:03 You come or go. Hidden in the hands of Moses and Aaron, 37:07 You led your people like a flock of sheep. 37:10 Shelley, what I really want to focus on for just a moment is 37:12 this gratefulness in the midst of difficulty 37:15 Just refer to a little earlier, the story of them standing 37:18 and singing on the banks, but what we 37:19 didn't hear is what this catholic priest wrote and what a 37:25 Salvation Army captain wrote 37:30 and I want to read, just a little bit 37:32 I can't capture as good as the book can capture, so 37:34 if you bear with me I'm going to read just a moment here 37:37 is John O'Donnell priest saying this: 37:42 and this was kind of written up and this was actually published 37:45 in the local newspaper 37:47 Is that eventually I began to worry that we are holding up 37:51 the many other families waiting to be a complied down from 37:55 the main barrier, as we're on the beach singing 37:57 his recollection 38:00 But when I looked up I saw everyone on the rocks 38:03 above us, the firefighters, the police, the Red Cross 38:07 volunteers and other family members and the chaplains 38:12 everyone was transfixed by the singing family 38:18 Many were crying at the sight of such grace and so much sorrow 38:24 Amen 38:25 We do not grieve like other people grieve 38:28 because we have a hope. 38:30 And then the Salvation Army put these words 38:36 and they got to be shared 38:38 Same recollection about event 38:41 That day on the shore line listening to them, the Wilkins 38:45 family sing, was like hearing angels in the midst of disaster 38:49 Amen. 38:50 Not for me only, but for all those who were present. 38:53 There was quiet as the voices sang to the open raging sea 39:00 and open sky. 39:02 I've to stop. That's what thankfulness and gratefulness 39:05 allows you do: to look Satan and all of the evil forces 39:08 and all the rage and all the anger and look in their face 39:12 and sing praises to the God of heaven. 39:16 Amen 39:17 they gave me courage to go on each day at that time to care 39:22 for and support those who experienced such grief 39:25 the Wilkins's showed by their faith that their grieving was 39:31 different 39:32 I got to get this clear. 39:33 They grieve for the loss, but live for the hope of reunion 39:38 some day. 39:39 Amen. 39:40 What a powerful testimony! 39:42 to faith in a God who loves us. 39:46 You know David, I hope to live my life in such a way that 39:50 I'll stand on the sea of glass with Monty some day, 'cause 39:53 I look forward to meeting your precious son 39:56 Well, coming up next we're going to discover how to achieve 40:02 the acceptance and the peace that we need to 40:05 face the tough times. 40:06 And little later we'll be taking some questions from our 40:09 live audience. So, please, don't go away. 40:19 Has life done to you some hard blows? 40:21 Are you struggling to get through tough times? 40:24 If so, we have just the books for you. 40:26 Find comfort as you read: 40:27 "Why God Allows Trials and Disappointments'" and 40:30 "Growing Trough Life's Toughest Times" for your 40:32 free gift, write to us today at 41:02 Welcome back to Up Close 41:05 We're talking today about Facing The Tough Times 41:08 and our guest who are with us are dr. David Wilkins and 41:12 Pastor Jay Gallimore 41:14 Now, Jay has often had to stand by people through their 41:19 difficult times, and I'd like to just turn to him now and 41:24 get serious about some questions. 41:26 Jay, if does God love us so much, how do we explain to 41:32 people why He allows these things to happen. 41:36 Well, first of all we don't understand everything 41:41 and that's where trust comes in 41:42 But I want to go back, I'll come back to your question 41:46 But I want to go back to a moment Dan and Kay Collins 41:49 experienced. 41:50 We were at a camp meeting a year ago, 41:52 when the mercury point came back and shared with me 41:55 and really was an ugly one and 41:58 I had happened to back up that information just before 42:02 camp meeting started, I was speaking on Friday night 42:05 the opening night at the camp meeting 42:06 And I had prepared this because some journey of my own 42:11 and here is a quote from the little book 42:15 "Thoughts From The Mount of Blessings" page 71 42:18 from Ellen White, that simply reflects a text of Scripture 42:22 found in Romans 8:28, which many people know 42:26 But I'll call you of the end of this so 42:27 it's both string that text, it's making that text a lumen 42:32 Here is the quote. It's a fascinating quote 42:36 "The Father's presence encircled Christ and nothing befell Him 42:41 but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of 42:45 the world. " 42:46 So I have to believe that anything that happens to us 42:49 comes from a heart of God's infinite love. 42:52 Amen. 42:53 Now, some people say, God is not in charge of trouble 42:56 but once you surrender your life to Christ nothing can touch you 43:01 unless He orders it, or allows 43:03 it amen 43:05 Nothing. 43:06 And that's hard for us to accept as human beings, because 43:10 I, as I listened to this comment, I was riding in the car 43:13 on the way to an ordination, I had an argument with God 43:16 the argument went something like this 43:18 'cause then you're reaching deep down 43:21 and I was saying: Lord, but you know, down reserved 43:24 the right to pray and ask You to overturn some things that 43:28 I don't want 43:29 And then I came to understanding that I had become 43:33 willing to accept whatever God allow to come to my life 43:40 And that's not easy, because we always want to reserve 43:44 the right to stay in control and we have to give up control 43:47 and we have to trust God's infinite love. 43:50 Now let me go on with this, 43:51 'cause this is a tremendous quote 43:53 "Here was His quite source of comfort 43:55 and it is for us. " Wow! 43:59 In other words, what the comfort of Christ was that 44:03 nothing could happen to Him except what His Father allowed 44:05 to happen 44:06 One thing I love about this book, the journey of this book 44:09 is that this book in depth there 44:14 "He who is imbued with the Spirit of Christ 44:18 abides in Christ. 44:20 The blow aimed at him, the Christian falls upon the Savior" 44:25 Who is throwing the blow? 44:26 The adversary. 44:28 "who surrounds him with His presence" 44:31 The Savior surrounds the Christian with His presence 44:35 whoever, whatever comes to him, the Christian comes from Christ. 44:40 He has no need to resist evil, for Christ is his defends. 44:45 Nothing can touch him except by Lord's permission, 44:50 and all things that are permitted work together for 44:54 good to them that love God. " Romans 8:28 44:58 Now, I want to come back. Dan and Kay listened that night 45:01 and I'll tell you, this was an anchor for them through this 45:04 whole terrible experience 45:05 I was there, they called me the night Dan died. 45:09 And I was there at that tender, almost awful moment 45:13 when the morticians come. 45:19 His lifeless body is laying there and we are gathered in 45:23 that moment of darkness settles over all of us, because 45:28 we understand the finality of this 45:30 even that was great hope in that room 45:33 and then we began to sing 45:38 and I think may be I was impressed by what happened to 45:43 your family. 45:45 We began to sing and Kay was on one side of me, others 45:50 we were there in a circle. 45:51 Kay began to sob, but then that strong beautiful voice of hers 45:58 would pick up as we sang those words: It is well, 46:03 it is well with my soul. 46:05 Another thing I was deeply impressed with this great 46:12 experience that David Wilkins' great, it may be not the word, 46:15 but tragic experience, they went through, is that God had 46:18 His hand over them. 46:19 And even that they heard this off the news, no official 46:22 confirmation, they're getting ready to go back to home 46:25 in California, which is all they could do. 46:29 They're alone, on the plane, and on that plane 46:33 unknown to them is two of their best friends, and they look up 46:41 and there they see them on the plane. 46:43 Of course they didn't know at that point. 46:46 But Jenna, your wife makes that comment. 46:48 She leans over to you and says something to the effect 46:52 God already is working to bless us and help us. 46:55 He prepared to have these people here, for us 46:58 and they were wonderful comfort on that flight home. 47:00 I mean, who could put that together, but the Lord Himself? 47:03 You see. Amen. 47:04 I'm telling you, that as we look 47:06 we will find the Divine providences of God working. 47:10 You know, the book is entitled "United by Tragedy" 47:14 and I just, David I want to thank you for writing this book 47:19 Did you keep a journal? 47:21 What was it like for you to share the story? 47:24 Did you find healing as you wrote the story? 47:27 Well, for me, maybe not for everyone, but for me 47:33 it was important to talk about this incident and the tragedy 47:37 and my son. 47:38 There is several things that, well 2 things are specifically 47:42 that for me were important. 47:43 When you loose a loved one and you are given permission 47:48 to speak of him often, speak of the values, 47:52 speak of the positive memories and the experiences 47:55 and the things in our lives that were worth 47:57 making part of your own and you given permission 47:59 to do that frequently, you began to make those values, 48:05 those positive things part of your own life, 48:07 like Monty's inclusiveness that you mentioned 48:08 I find myself a much more inclusive person, now, because 48:11 of my son. 48:12 The second thing that I think is critically important to me 48:18 to share this is while Monty sleeps God's kingdom is growing 48:24 because of his life. 48:25 Amen. Amen. 48:26 And one day, when he is in the kingdom, 48:31 there is going to be stars in the crown of Monty 48:35 Amen. 48:36 Now, they came into that kingdom because of the witness 48:39 of his life, even while he rested. 48:41 You know, something that you reached in that book that 48:44 has to come in on, is because it struck me, I'm not ever heard 48:48 it this way was, I think someone had mentioned to you 48:52 that you dying closure, but you said, I believe I'm 48:55 I'm going to say right there. There is no closure. 48:58 The life is ended, but the relationship continues. 49:02 that's right. 49:03 And I believe that sometimes when someone that is close to us 49:08 has faced a death, that if they keep talking about it, it's 49:13 aren't we all often rather trying to put them away and say 49:19 you need to put this behind you and go on? 49:22 you know, you asked me earlier, but I didn't have time to 49:26 respond, so I'll take the liberty now; you asked me 49:28 what have you learn about reaching to touch someone 49:31 there is two things that I can say, they are really simple. 49:35 The first is: people in the midst of the heat of this raw 49:39 experience need hugs, not words 49:41 oh, that's good. 49:42 And secondly, the most special thing that happened to me, one 49:46 of the very special things that happened to me was 49:49 a dentist friend of mine in my church walked up to me 49:51 and said to me: Dave, I don't ever tire of hearing you talk 49:56 about your son. 49:57 How precious! 49:58 Giving me permission to do what I needed to do 50:01 and saying: I'm interested, I want to hear it. 50:05 And I think, those two things go a long way 50:09 in the heat of the moment to really begin an opportunity 50:13 for the Lord to start the healing process. 50:15 Step up to someone and say, you know, I really care 50:18 about what's happening in your life. Tell me about it. 50:22 That's good. 50:23 So, hug and a ready ear. 50:27 These are two great gifts of God's love to someone 50:31 who is hurting. 50:32 Coming up next, we're going to take questions from our live 50:35 audience. So, please stay tune with us. 50:48 we're going to be talking about workaholics. We certainly are. 50:51 We're going to be talking about balancing work and family 50:55 and more specifically about balancing our lives, 50:59 so we don't end up being workaholics 51:02 And I was working 9-5 I guess, for my dad, 5-9 at the mall 51:08 with my friends, and Saturday and Sundays 51:12 More people acknowledged what I did, the better I thought 51:14 for a while. 51:16 when we don't understand the purpose for our life 51:20 and then our priorities get mixed up 51:28 Don't miss it. 51:46 Welcome back to Up Close. 51:47 We're talking today about Facing the Tough Times 51:50 and right now, we're going to take some questions from our 51:54 live audience. And I believe we have our first question right 51:59 now My name is Randy Ates and my question is: My wife and I we're 52:03 overseas as missionaries and right after we left 52:07 the pastor and his wife and son was killed. 52:10 They lived just down the road from us and one of the things 52:14 that happened was they were fixing the house we lived in 52:18 and one of the workers killed the pastor and wife and child 52:25 And it makes me feel guilty at times, because 52:28 if we'd still be living there, the house may not have been 52:30 worked on. 52:32 And what can I do to get rid of this guilt and this pressure 52:36 that's built upon me to be able to say it really wasn't my fault 52:43 Pastor Jay, 52:44 First of all guilt is a wonderful thing if it's based 52:47 on truth. 52:48 if it's not based on truth, it's not so good. 52:51 So you have to ask yourself: are you really guilty? 52:54 I don't think you are. You have nothing to do with that. 52:57 So, the other thing is that you have to deal with feelings 53:00 feelings have got to be overcome all kinds of crazy feelings 53:03 that run through our heads and we have to surrender those to 53:06 Lord Jesus and say: Lord, I know this is not the truth, 53:08 I don't know why I have these feelings, but whatever 53:10 these feelings are, I want to surrender them to You 53:13 and I don't choose those feelings anymore. 53:15 That way you take control of your feelings again 53:17 Hi, what's your name, please? 53:19 Hi. My name is Richard Garajuno My question is: How much time is 53:23 to much to grieve? 53:24 Oh, I don't think there is a pat answer for that. Do you? 53:29 I really don't. Dr. Wilkins maybe better to answer that 53:34 question then. 53:36 Yes, doctor. 53:37 'cause he's been through it. 53:38 I think that thankfully we all are wonderfully made different. 53:44 and we all have a different make up 53:47 and the issue isn't how long is a proper time to grieve 53:54 it is: do we grieve? 53:57 or do we suppress that necessary experience 54:03 so that it shows up in other ways 54:05 some people get ill, because they have not grieve properly 54:09 some people are in denial, because they have not allowed 54:13 themselves to grieve and you'll fixate and situations 54:18 in that process that can be very hard and difficult for you 54:22 to recover from, if you don't have the freedom to grieve. 54:26 and we who are around people who are in tragedy need to give 54:31 them permission, still feel very strongly, 54:33 because they don't want to talk about it. 54:36 Then keep coming back to them and saying, I'm here if you feel 54:41 like sharing and burning your heart, I can tell you very 54:45 wonderful story about how I persisted in just being there 54:48 and saying: I'm here to listen for a year and half for 54:52 a family who lost their 4 year old 54:53 in a terrible accident. 54:55 Finally he called me a year and a half later, and he said 54:58 I didn't answer your phone calls It wasn't because I didn't 55:01 want to, I couldn't. 55:03 But he said: I read your book. 55:05 And it's been a blessing 55:07 praise the Lord. 55:08 And thank you for just letting us know that somebody out there 55:10 cared even we wouldn't talk. 55:12 Could you, please, our program is coming to an end 55:15 would you just kind of give us your final thoughts on this 55:19 topic? 55:20 yes, I'll be happy to 55:21 number 1- Do something about the anchor of your life now 55:25 Know the Lord. Get to know the Lord, now. 55:27 Number 2: when you face with difficulty and tragedy and 55:31 you can't explain it, look to the cross of Calvary and know 55:35 that if God sent His only begotten Son to the cross 55:38 because He loved us that explains the unexplainable 55:43 and number 3: simply trust in through it and know that 55:47 Romans 8:28 will come about. 55:49 You may not see it immediately but at some point 55:52 that will happen. 55:54 Praising the Lord in the midst of grief is the most important 55:59 thing you can do when you are in the midst of it. 56:01 Amen. 56:02 Well, we just want to thank our guests: Dr. David Wilkins 56:06 and pastor Jay Gallimore for being with us today. 56:09 And in a moment we'll be back with the final thoughts, 56:12 so please stay with us 56:21 Has life dealt to you some hard blows 56:23 are you struggling to get through the tough times? 56:26 if so, we have just the books for you. 56:28 Find comfort as you read: 56:30 "Why God Allows Trials and Disappointments" and 56:33 "Growing Through Life's Toughest Times" 56:35 For your free gift write to us today at 57:03 Dr. Wilkins' oldest son maid this comment to his father: 57:09 Why are we on earth anyway? 57:11 And as Dr. Wilkins was trying to explain all of this, his son 57:15 Darrin, said to him: Dad, you making us much too hard. 57:19 And here is what Darrin said: We are here for only 2 reasons 57:24 The first is to decide to love and to serve Jesus 57:28 the second is to help others do the same 57:31 Everything else is maintenance. 57:34 isn't that beautiful? 57:35 I just want to encourage you. 57:37 The Bible says in Isaiah 43:2 This is God speaking 57:42 And he says: Fear not, for I have redeemed you 57:48 have you accepted His 57:50 redemption? He says I have called you by your name and you 57:54 are Mine When you pass through the waters I will be with you 57:57 and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you 58:00 when you walk through the fire you'll not be burned or 58:04 scorched for I am the Lord your God, the holy One of Israel 58:09 Remember this: God is in the fiery trial with you. 58:14 You are never alone. 58:16 He never leaves you or forsakes you. 58:18 Thank you so much for joining us today. 58:20 And until the next time may God bless you. 58:56 Captioning and subtitles by Christian Media Services |
Revised 2014-12-17