Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and
welcome to another 3ABN Up Close
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We're coming to you from
the Fort Worth First Seventh Day
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Adventist Church
in Fort Worth, Texas.
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And we thank you for joining us.
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We also like to thank our live
audience, for joining us today
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in this program
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Today we are going to be
discussing a struggle that
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many of you are probably
going through right now.
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Our topic is:
Facing The Tough Times
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You know tragedy will
eventually confront all of us
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It's not a matter
of "if" but "when"
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When we have to face the tough
times it often happens suddenly
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and unexpectedly.
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A job loss might
throw our lives into chaos,
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and we find ourselves
facing an economic crisis.
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A serious health challenge
can crop up and just changes
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our lives immediately.
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We might become the victim of
an accident, or a violent crime.
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For too many of us is
facing the unexpected death
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of a loved one.
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Whatever the crisis might
be, it can sometimes cause us to
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struggle with the
concept of God's power and love.
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In the midst of our trial we
might find ourselves questioning
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the character
of the Creator God.
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Our first guest today faced
the crisis that would certainly
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create for many people
feelings of anger toward God.
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Dr. David Wilkins has joined
us from Riverside, California
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Dr. Wilkins and his wife Janet
were proud parents of 4 children
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They rejoiced when
their youngest son Monty,
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filled with passion and zeal for
the Lord was baptized on the day
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of his high school graduation
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Now, the Wilkins
had a family tradition
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of spending a
year of study abroad
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And Monty planned his
academic adventure in France.
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Dr. Wilkins
remembers the day his son left
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and here is what happened next.
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It was about 6.30 Pacific
Standard Time and we were on
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final process
here at the airport.
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I mentioned to my wife that at
that particular moment our son
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Monty headed from New
York to Geneva would be over
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the Atlantic Ocean
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I had no idea at that moment the
drama that was being played out
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in the cockpit of the
airplane 4000 miles away
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An hour later we were making
small talk at a friend's home in
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the Seattle area
when the phone rang.
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My son-in-law Dan in a
very serious voice said to me:
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A plane is got down
from New York to Geneva
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Was it Monty's
airplane do you think?
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I had no idea what
he was talking about.
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And I..., he said...
well, why don't you turn on CNN?
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I spoke to our host and I asked
him to turn on the television
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and while that was going
on, I asked my wife what Monty's
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flight number was
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She could not remember the
number, but she remembered that
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that morning she has sent
a communication to the school
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to pick him up, and the flight
number had two ones in it.
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As the TV came on, it
was nonstop coverage from CNN
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and the flight
number was on the screen
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Swiss Air Flight 111
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And at that moment it donned
on us that was Monty's airplane
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And unless he had missed
it, this was likely his flight.
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At that moment it sort of like
being stung of an electric prod
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it's just, it's
incomprehensible moment
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and my immediate reaction
was, because the initial report
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showing that there was a massive
emergency vehicles and like
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they did mention that a
possibility of survivors
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being a surgeon and being
someone who tries to fix things
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my initial reaction was to call
the airlines get on a plane and
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go rescue my son out of
the North Atlantic myself
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I just had to do
something, I needed to be there.
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Can you imagine hearing to such
a tragedy over the television?
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Now suddenly, everything
about his son's life came
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flatting back to David.
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It was as if he was trying
to remember every detail of
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Monty's existence.
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Here is what he told
us about his young son.
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Monty was a really, a little
bit of a quiet kid, but he was
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fun loving, he had
a great sense of humor
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He loved sports.
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Being a lover of sports myself
and having done that a lot in
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my life we had so much in common
We did everything together.
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He was adventuresome and
loved to have experiences
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to make memories.
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When he was 18 he was baptized
and gave his heart to the Lord.
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It was such a comfort to
watch Monty's spiritual growth
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during those 15 months between
his baptism and his accident
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On one occasion, about 4
months before the accident
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we were conversing
and he told me, he said:
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You know, everything
is ok with me and the Lord
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and I'm not afraid to die
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You know, I was not able to
say that as comfortably as he
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for about 53 years of my life
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And I found that rather
extraordinary for a kid,
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19 years old, to have listen
to the voice of Jesus say:
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Monty, I want to be your friend
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And Monty respond
with such a deep response
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I want to be Your friend
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And they walked
this road together
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I can still remember.
I think it was ABC doing
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a news cast and
focusing on one of his friends
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And his friend looked
right into the camera and said
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Monty loved the Lord,
and he told me about it.
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That was rather remarkable.
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And as we sat and listened
to his friends and his teachers
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from college began to speak of
him, some things began to emerge
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about him, that parents don't
often get to know, are not to
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because it occurs on whole
different frame of reference
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in the dormitory,
in the classroom, etc
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And we discovered that
Monty was a very inclusive child
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inclusive young
man now, he was 19.
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I guess child would
not be the right word
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People who were not
popular, talented or athletic
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he felt like they
needed to be part of his world.
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Just 19 years old, and he
had such assurance of salvation
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that he wasn't afraid to die.
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What a wonderful assurance that
must have given to his family
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later on.
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I'd like you to help me welcome
dr. David Wilkins to our program
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Thank you for being here today.
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We so appreciate it.
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You know, as the Wilkins family
struggled to make sense of
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this terrible tragedy they were
faced with some deep questions
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Where was God in
all of this tragedy?
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Why hadn't He
protected their son?
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But the Holy Spirit was very
close to them throughout the day
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And here is how David
described what happened
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Well, those, first few days
we just sat and sobbed and cried
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and held each other and tried
to make sense out of something
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that's nonsense.
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You know, you're just
hopeless and helpless.
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and you just... It reminds
me of a cartoon I saw one time
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of a cat with its claws on a
fence, clinging for dear life
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to something.
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You cling to the Lord.
You don't understand Him.
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You don't understand His
providence or His control.
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You don't
understand the circumstances.
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You can't believe
your eyes and your ears.
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But something leads
you to trust His heart.
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And I had to cling to that.
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I mean, there is a song
called "Trust His heart"
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It says when you don't
understand and you can't see
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His plan and you can't trace His
hand, you can trust His heart.
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And right now I had to be
able to stand up with that
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Sinter in the movie of
the robe said at the end
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when he discovers forgiveness
I guess he reasons back
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for having nailed
Jesus to the cross
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He says: From this day forward
I'm giving my sword, my fortune
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and my life
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And I have to say to the
Lord today I give Him my sword,
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my courage and strength
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My fortune, what little I
have and my life as well as
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those who I love,
because I can trust His heart
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And is taken a few
years to get to that
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and we cling to that
hope: Jesus is the answer
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You know David, you
mentioned about clinging to hope
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Hebrews 6:19 says that God has
given us this hope as an anchor
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for our soul and I am so
glad that you and your family
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had that anchor in place
before this terrible tragedy
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You wrote such a beautiful
book: United In Tragedy
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about your journey
through this experience
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There is one thing
in the book that really,
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the whole book moved me.
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But something that was so
interesting was how different
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people in your family reacted
in different ways to their grief
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And something that, a story
that truly moved me was a story
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about your
youngest daughter, Marcy
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and the terrible
anger that she was feeling
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And she had such
great frustration
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Now, when you
went to Nova Scotia,
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where the plain had
gone down off of that border
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something happened one
night in your hotel room
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with a pastor and his wife
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Could you please,
share that with us?
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Yeah, Marcy was a
very emotional young lady
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and she didn't feel that this
should happen to her brother
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and she felt free to
express that anger which became
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significant enough. At one time
I thought I lost two children
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She was so angry.
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And we arrived in Nova Scotia
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There was a lot of confusion
as they excused guests that were
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in the hotel and made room for
families of the victims to all
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stand one place, so
they can secure the place
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and as we finally
got to our motel room
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there was a phone number there.
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It was the phone number of
the local pastor and his wife
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They wanted to come
and see us that evening
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and not feeling like
we wanted to see anybody
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just using our son
being in a strange place
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knowing nobody, but
because he extended himself,
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we figured we would honor
that and invited him to our room
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and he and his wife came
to the door wind by the men
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There weren't many chairs
in the room, so we were sitting
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around the edge of the bed and
standing against the wall and
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sitting on the floor.
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And Marcy was sitting on the
floor with her back against the
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dresser and this pastor
started to interact with her
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and it became very quickly
that this wasn't going anywhere.
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She was having none of it
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And went on just a few minutes
and his quiet wife was standing
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over in a corner.
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She listened patiently
until she'd had enough.
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And she walked over to Marcy
and stood right in front of her
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She said: Marcy
can I take your hand?
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And she reached
down to take her hand.
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And she looked right in
the eyes, and she said: Marcy,
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I know what is like to be angry.
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I was in such a
rage here this last week
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I ran into the shower,
slammed the door, and screamed
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for what seemed like 30 minutes.
00:12:58.93\00:13:01.06
And she paused and she
said: Marcy, my son is in jail
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for molesting children.
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Then she said: Marcy, he
will be released in 6 months.
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And he is not sorry.
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And then she added words that
can be the most wrenching for
00:13:19.37\00:13:26.01
any mother to say
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She said: Marcy, I'm his mother.
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And it would be
better if he would gone
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than to do that.
00:13:34.15\00:13:36.59
It was dead silence,
just like it is in this room
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Yes.
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She didn't just speak to Marcy.
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She spoke to me.
00:13:46.08\00:13:47.26
Because I was angry too.
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Sure.
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Here is this quiet moment.
00:13:51.34\00:13:54.23
And that moment said more
to my family than any counselor
00:13:54.27\00:14:00.64
any member of
the faith community
00:14:00.67\00:14:04.25
anyone else could have said
00:14:04.28\00:14:05.46
And I have to tell
you, several weeks later
00:14:05.50\00:14:11.10
I heard my daughter standing in
front of the college classmates
00:14:11.14\00:14:14.37
at Walla-Walla College
and say almost tearfully
00:14:14.40\00:14:20.65
I'm not angry anymore
00:14:20.68\00:14:22.65
Praise the
Lord! Praise the Lord!
00:14:22.69\00:14:24.85
She said: I can
sing "Amazing Grace"
00:14:24.88\00:14:27.01
as well with my soul
00:14:27.04\00:14:28.76
and I back up an angry tears.
00:14:28.80\00:14:30.85
Praise God!
00:14:30.88\00:14:32.10
So Marcy's doing well today.
00:14:32.14\00:14:33.76
That's wonderful!
00:14:33.79\00:14:35.23
I think that the reason
this ministered so much to you
00:14:35.26\00:14:39.65
this comment, I believe
you bring this out in the book
00:14:39.69\00:14:43.95
is that you suddenly realized
there are worse tragedies
00:14:43.99\00:14:48.18
you had the hope, knowing your
son Monty's walk with the Lord
00:14:48.22\00:14:53.08
you had the hope of
spending eternity with him
00:14:53.11\00:14:57.67
But if your son, if the
circumstances were different
00:14:57.71\00:15:03.99
and it was your son in
prison for such a thing
00:15:04.02\00:15:06.82
it would be a far greater
loss, because you knew that
00:15:06.86\00:15:11.09
if he remained in that
condition, it will all be over
00:15:11.13\00:15:15.33
someday.
00:15:15.36\00:15:16.33
You know, one of Monty's
classmates that was mentioned
00:15:16.34\00:15:18.91
in the voice clip
said in that same sequence
00:15:18.94\00:15:21.14
he said: there is a paper laying
on the table in front of him
00:15:21.18\00:15:25.20
with Monty's picture and
the camera found his eyes
00:15:25.23\00:15:27.63
he said: This
happened to the wrong guy
00:15:27.66\00:15:31.01
Did it?
00:15:33.34\00:15:34.31
Who needs more time,
00:15:34.32\00:15:36.31
Amen.
00:15:36.34\00:15:37.31
to turn to the Lord and
discover His friendship?
00:15:37.32\00:15:40.12
and His forgiveness.
00:15:40.15\00:15:41.70
The child of God who
says I'm not afraid to die,
00:15:41.74\00:15:44.31
everything is well with me
00:15:44.34\00:15:46.22
or one who needs
time to find the Lord
00:15:46.26\00:15:49.77
Dr. Wilkins, I was
truly moved by your book.
00:15:50.77\00:15:54.62
when I picked it up, from
the moment I just read the first
00:15:54.66\00:15:58.42
word, I didn't sit it
down until I finished it.
00:15:58.45\00:16:00.95
And you used the term frequently
00:16:00.98\00:16:03.87
the reluctant fraternity.
00:16:03.90\00:16:06.20
There is many people who have
joint the reluctant fraternity
00:16:06.24\00:16:11.32
I like you to explain it, just
a moment, but I will also like
00:16:11.35\00:16:16.22
you to tell us what have you
learn through this experience
00:16:16.25\00:16:21.09
about reaching out
to others who are facing
00:16:21.12\00:16:24.16
the type of grieve
that you made through
00:16:24.20\00:16:27.17
Well, let me explain the
reluctant fraternity phrase
00:16:27.21\00:16:30.55
In fact, that was the
title I chose for my book
00:16:30.58\00:16:33.98
But the
publishers had other ideas
00:16:34.01\00:16:35.43
They thought it could be
misinterpreted in some way, but
00:16:35.47\00:16:38.07
it still captures the idea that
there is a community of people
00:16:38.11\00:16:43.14
who are bought
together by common experience
00:16:43.17\00:16:45.87
not of their choice.
00:16:45.90\00:16:47.36
And then as the community
grows and the membership
00:16:47.40\00:16:52.62
in that community grows,
00:16:52.65\00:16:54.17
an enormous capacity grows
00:16:54.20\00:16:55.65
through life experience and how
God helps you go that experience
00:16:55.69\00:17:02.43
Really changes
kingdom, to build His kingdom
00:17:02.46\00:17:07.53
and not waste that experience
00:17:07.56\00:17:09.90
So there is an enormous
responsibility and capacity
00:17:10.00\00:17:12.97
that comes with, only 6
years later can say this,
00:17:13.00\00:17:17.47
to be trusted with
a tragedy like this.
00:17:17.50\00:17:19.78
It's a good way to say it.
00:17:20.25\00:17:22.13
Something that stroked me,
you went through this experience
00:17:22.17\00:17:27.94
with a couple
hundred other families
00:17:27.97\00:17:29.89
absolutely
00:17:29.99\00:17:31.14
and part of your
healing process happened
00:17:31.17\00:17:34.37
the very first time
you went to Nova Scotia
00:17:34.41\00:17:37.56
when you reached out to bring
someone else into your circle
00:17:37.60\00:17:42.29
you have what? 9 people?
00:17:42.32\00:17:43.51
My kids and their spouses and
myself, there were 9 of us there
00:17:43.55\00:17:48.13
What a support group!
00:17:48.16\00:17:49.41
Yes!
00:17:49.44\00:17:50.41
A whole church
family like is in this room
00:17:50.42\00:17:52.95
to lift us and support us
00:17:52.98\00:17:56.45
but it was not so for some
00:17:56.55\00:17:58.92
you know, I encounter
a lady at the elevator
00:17:58.96\00:18:03.04
the first morning we were there
00:18:03.07\00:18:04.63
and we were both
waiting for the elevator
00:18:04.67\00:18:07.77
and she was pretty..., she was
not in a very good shape and I
00:18:07.81\00:18:10.74
walked up and I put
my arm around her, I saw
00:18:10.77\00:18:12.49
her tag I knew she was a parent
00:18:12.52\00:18:14.40
of somebody who had perished;
it turned out to be her
00:18:14.44\00:18:16.86
18 year old daughter Lou Anna
00:18:16.89\00:18:18.52
This was Nancy White
and she says: I have no one
00:18:18.56\00:18:23.04
My dog died this year,
my mother died this year
00:18:23.07\00:18:27.14
and my daughter and I
had a big disagreement
00:18:27.18\00:18:31.18
before I got on the airplane,
so our last time together
00:18:31.22\00:18:34.53
was stressed
00:18:34.56\00:18:35.66
I'm alone
00:18:35.70\00:18:36.77
And I just wrapped her in
my arms, gave this big hug
00:18:38.05\00:18:41.15
and we adopted
her into our family
00:18:41.18\00:18:42.85
And she is in, part
of our family even today
00:18:42.88\00:18:46.38
We stay in close touch with her
00:18:46.41\00:18:48.51
I praise God that He gave
you such grace at a moment,
00:18:48.55\00:18:52.97
you know grieve is a
very private thing, but I
00:18:53.00\00:18:55.05
praise the Lord
that you opened your arms
00:18:55.08\00:18:57.13
When you're hurting
and you want to heal,
00:18:57.16\00:18:59.18
touch another hurting person
00:18:59.21\00:19:00.96
That's a good advice
00:19:00.99\00:19:02.76
It reacts back on you in
ways that you cannot imagine
00:19:02.80\00:19:04.85
Because that was the
beginning about healing
00:19:04.88\00:19:07.81
Give and it shall
be given to you, yes
00:19:07.84\00:19:10.13
The measure you use
would be measured back to you
00:19:10.17\00:19:12.86
Coming up next, will discuss
some of the common reactions
00:19:12.90\00:19:17.47
to sudden tragedy, as well
as what we can do to prepare for
00:19:17.50\00:19:21.52
such an event in our own
life, so please don't go away.
00:19:21.55\00:19:25.54
We are going to be talking about
workaholics. We certainly are
00:19:33.95\00:19:37.40
We're going to be talking
about balancing work and family
00:19:37.43\00:19:41.14
and more specifically
about balancing our lives,
00:19:41.17\00:19:45.27
so we don't end
up being workaholics
00:19:45.30\00:19:47.47
And I was working 9-5 I guess,
for my dad, 5-9 at the mall
00:19:47.57\00:19:54.89
with my friends,
and Saturday and Sundays
00:19:54.92\00:19:57.74
But the more I worked, the more
people acknowledged what I did
00:19:57.78\00:20:00.44
the better I felt for a while
00:20:00.47\00:20:01.96
When we don't understand
the purpose for our life
00:20:02.36\00:20:06.53
and then our
priorities get mixed up
00:20:06.56\00:20:12.12
Next week on Up Close
00:20:12.15\00:20:13.27
Don't miss it!
00:20:14.98\00:20:16.10
Welcome back to Up Close
00:20:27.75\00:20:30.03
We're talking today
about facing the tough times
00:20:30.07\00:20:34.05
and what we can do to help
ourselves and others get through
00:20:34.09\00:20:38.28
these tough times.
00:20:38.38\00:20:39.36
We want to welcome our special
guest: Pastor Jay Gallimore who
00:20:39.40\00:20:44.20
is President of the Michigan
Conference of Seventh Day
00:20:44.23\00:20:47.61
Adventists
00:20:47.64\00:20:48.61
And as a leader of the
Conference of churches,
00:20:48.62\00:20:51.54
Jay is often called on to
help people who are facing these
00:20:51.64\00:20:57.77
tough times and may be
questioning the love of God
00:20:57.80\00:21:01.28
Let's welcome pastor Gallimore
00:21:01.31\00:21:03.94
Pastor, it's
good to have you here
00:21:03.98\00:21:06.58
Good to be here.
00:21:06.61\00:21:09.28
I'm so glad you
could join us today.
00:21:11.92\00:21:14.34
I just want to cut
right to the chase.
00:21:14.37\00:21:16.72
Don't you think in many
ways is natural to question God
00:21:16.76\00:21:22.37
when such tragedy comes
into our lives unexpectedly
00:21:22.41\00:21:27.99
Well, Shelly I do.
00:21:28.02\00:21:30.01
I don't think there is a human
being around, that doesn't say
00:21:30.05\00:21:34.17
Lord, what's going on here?
00:21:34.20\00:21:36.83
Amen.
00:21:36.86\00:21:37.83
What's happening here? Why?
00:21:37.84\00:21:39.79
Am I in this kind of a
thing? So, I think it's natural
00:21:39.82\00:21:43.86
to question. And these
questions are important
00:21:43.89\00:21:47.41
And they are important because
there is an opportunity now
00:21:47.45\00:21:50.90
for God to speak.
00:21:50.93\00:21:52.02
There is no time when we listen
so intently as to when we just
00:21:52.06\00:21:58.68
heard flight 111 may be down.
00:21:58.71\00:22:03.30
Then, we say, Lord- and
we are all ears to hear.
00:22:03.34\00:22:08.25
You know, any time that I
hear the tragedy, I always pray
00:22:08.29\00:22:13.51
and ask the Lord to be there
to comfort the people, but also
00:22:13.54\00:22:18.73
I ask Him: Father send many
people with the love of Jesus
00:22:18.83\00:22:26.39
that can reach out and
touch these who are mourning
00:22:26.42\00:22:29.86
And something like
that happened to David.
00:22:29.89\00:22:32.50
David, I just wanted to ask you
I know that you and your family
00:22:32.54\00:22:36.55
went to the lighthouse
where you were going to have
00:22:36.58\00:22:41.03
a little ceremony for your son
00:22:41.06\00:22:43.01
and something happened on
the beach when a young pastor
00:22:43.05\00:22:47.79
actually a priest came up to you
and read a very special psalm
00:22:47.83\00:22:52.06
Could you tell us a little bit
about what happened that day?
00:22:52.09\00:22:56.29
Yes, there were
hundreds of us, family members,
00:22:56.33\00:23:00.41
who had been taken
there in a bus convoy
00:23:00.44\00:23:02.56
we had been briefed in a tent
about how to avoid the press
00:23:02.60\00:23:06.64
and in an organized way we
had our moment at the beach,
00:23:06.67\00:23:10.68
for our loved one.
00:23:10.71\00:23:11.75
And believe it or not it was
on a beautiful Sabbath morning.
00:23:11.79\00:23:14.60
You could see the ships
up there picking up debris.
00:23:14.63\00:23:17.73
You could see the
helicopters running their grids
00:23:17.77\00:23:20.80
And it was in that atmosphere,
we were finally had our time
00:23:20.84\00:23:26.33
and our family proceeded down
to as far next to the water,
00:23:26.37\00:23:31.83
as we can get, as
they would let us go
00:23:31.86\00:23:33.66
And we were just getting ready
to, we kind of decided what we
00:23:33.70\00:23:37.95
were going to do,
and we were getting ready
00:23:37.98\00:23:40.05
and a young captain came up to
us who had a collar on, who was
00:23:40.09\00:23:45.01
turned around the opposite way,
and he didn't identify himself
00:23:45.04\00:23:49.93
He just simply said:
Are you fox Christians?
00:23:49.96\00:23:52.20
And we said: Yes, we are.
00:23:52.23\00:23:54.13
And he said, very,
almost in a shaky voice
00:23:54.17\00:23:57.32
Would you mind if I read
Scripture to you and pray
00:23:57.36\00:23:59.32
with you?
00:23:59.35\00:24:00.51
And we said: we
would be delighted
00:24:00.54\00:24:02.50
And he opened his
Bible and he read Psalm 77
00:24:02.54\00:24:06.19
Just to give you a
flavor of that chapter
00:24:06.23\00:24:09.81
in one sentence, the last
sentence in the first half
00:24:09.85\00:24:12.99
of that chapter, says:
Where is God when I need Him?
00:24:13.09\00:24:17.60
When I needed him
most He went on vacation
00:24:17.63\00:24:20.28
in the words of
the Message Bible
00:24:20.31\00:24:21.95
I felt a little bit
like that at the moment
00:24:21.99\00:24:25.85
At any rate, go home
and read Psalm 77 tonight,
00:24:25.88\00:24:29.67
knowing the setting and it
will mean a lot more to you, but
00:24:29.71\00:24:32.43
at any rate he did pray
with us and read, and then
00:24:32.46\00:24:35.79
we had little song
sheets and we began to sing,
00:24:35.89\00:24:38.93
as a sort of a family choir
00:24:38.96\00:24:40.75
Your wife Janet had
printed this off and had them
00:24:40.79\00:24:45.22
printed off all the verses and
we were going to take our time
00:24:45.26\00:24:50.04
there and sing praises in
front of a fairly sizeable group
00:24:50.07\00:24:54.37
above us on the rocks
00:24:54.47\00:24:56.40
Because they were
bringing one family at a time
00:24:56.44\00:24:59.29
This is a rather dangerous
area where are some rogue waves
00:24:59.32\00:25:03.24
that would come, right?
00:25:03.27\00:25:04.24
That's right. They
had the Canadian military
00:25:04.25\00:25:06.78
there, to keep
us at safe distance.
00:25:06.81\00:25:08.51
And what was fascinating is
that this captain turned out
00:25:08.55\00:25:12.06
to be a catholic chaplain
in the Canadian military
00:25:12.09\00:25:17.01
and he wrote of this
experience to his superior
00:25:17.04\00:25:21.10
and his superior
published it in some publication
00:25:21.13\00:25:24.82
And when that was published,
somebody sent it to me
00:25:24.85\00:25:28.51
in the mail. I
can't even remember who.
00:25:28.54\00:25:30.52
And I finally
found out the man's name
00:25:30.55\00:25:32.50
Is captain John O' O'Donnell
00:25:32.53\00:25:35.79
And he's become my fast friend
00:25:35.82\00:25:39.05
Praise the Lord.
00:25:39.08\00:25:40.05
But I never met him by
name until a year later when
00:25:40.06\00:25:42.79
he participated in helping
us enterer my son's remains
00:25:42.82\00:25:46.20
I think in a little bit
we'd like to come back and read
00:25:46.23\00:25:49.60
may be a part of that letter
00:25:49.63\00:25:50.93
But at this time you were still
quite angry confused bewildered
00:25:50.97\00:25:58.93
maybe is a better word
00:25:58.96\00:26:00.24
How do we get past that stage
of, there is a time in my life
00:26:00.28\00:26:08.44
when I shook my
fists at the face of God
00:26:08.47\00:26:12.84
and said: You promised me these
type of things wouldn't happen
00:26:12.88\00:26:18.08
I thought He did anyway
00:26:18.11\00:26:19.78
But, how do we get past that
stage when we are in such grief
00:26:19.82\00:26:25.57
what are some of the steps?
00:26:25.60\00:26:27.32
But first we all need to start
before the tragedy happens and
00:26:27.36\00:26:30.70
that's already been
eluded to so nicely.
00:26:30.73\00:26:32.68
And I think in the book you
noted that it's like an anchor
00:26:32.72\00:26:35.97
if you try to put an anchor
down in the mist of a storm
00:26:36.01\00:26:39.23
it's very difficult.
00:26:39.33\00:26:42.22
But if the anchor it's already
in place before the storm hits
00:26:42.26\00:26:46.10
then you're going to
be held in a good way
00:26:46.13\00:26:50.33
The trouble is that many people
put off trying to get to know
00:26:50.37\00:26:55.19
the Lord until they
are hit with something
00:26:55.22\00:26:57.38
And I think that probably
it's may be the tragedy of youth
00:26:57.42\00:27:01.30
misconception of youth that
feel like they are model that
00:27:01.33\00:27:05.18
nothing is going
to happen to them and
00:27:05.21\00:27:06.64
of course you mentioned in your
introduction it's not a matter
00:27:06.68\00:27:09.44
of if something is
going to happen to you.
00:27:09.47\00:27:11.55
It's really only
a matter of when.
00:27:11.58\00:27:13.65
Every human being
because of what sin has done,
00:27:13.69\00:27:16.90
because the
environment we live in
00:27:16.93\00:27:19.54
because of the good grace of God
00:27:19.57\00:27:22.11
knowing that He has to allow
certain things to happen to us
00:27:22.15\00:27:26.94
in order to shape us
for what's going to happen
00:27:26.97\00:27:30.38
So I think the first answer I'd
like to say, and it doesn't mean
00:27:30.41\00:27:33.46
you can't get the anchor
down in the mist of the storm
00:27:33.49\00:27:35.53
but people need to know the
Lord and to call unto Lord while
00:27:35.57\00:27:40.57
He can be found
as the Scripture says
00:27:40.60\00:27:42.75
before something hits
00:27:42.78\00:27:45.48
Number 1- get that anchor
down early with the lord Jesus
00:27:45.52\00:27:49.42
And then I think, you
know once you're in a tragedy
00:27:49.45\00:27:54.02
everything, once you're
in a difficult situation
00:27:54.05\00:27:58.59
It's never like the
book says it will be
00:27:58.62\00:28:00.88
The emotions are
there, it's a lot of confusion
00:28:00.92\00:28:05.83
and those kinds of thing
00:28:05.93\00:28:07.40
And I know we say this so
lightly but the truth is we just
00:28:07.44\00:28:13.19
have to trust the
Lord through all of that
00:28:13.22\00:28:16.10
Another statement you
mentioned earlier, doctor
00:28:16.14\00:28:19.00
that I really
appreciate in the book
00:28:19.03\00:28:21.85
was that you have
to trust His heart
00:28:21.88\00:28:24.67
Amen
00:28:24.70\00:28:25.67
You know in the, when everything
doesn't make any sense
00:28:25.68\00:28:29.15
you have to trust His heart
00:28:29.18\00:28:30.60
And then I think this sounds odd
00:28:30.64\00:28:33.68
but I think one of the greatest
things that helps me through
00:28:33.72\00:28:37.61
difficulty is to start praising
God for how have seen Him act
00:28:37.64\00:28:41.50
in different ways
00:28:41.53\00:28:42.72
Amen
00:28:42.75\00:28:43.72
I also found, your wife
had a wonderful view of this
00:28:43.73\00:28:47.92
what I like about your
book, it's a journey through
00:28:47.96\00:28:52.48
your discovery of I've a
quote here that I want to read
00:28:52.51\00:28:56.40
in a few minutes.
00:28:56.43\00:28:57.45
About the fact that God
is in control of our lives
00:28:57.49\00:29:02.83
we don't want, first we
don't really get in control
00:29:02.93\00:29:05.83
we say as Christians, oh yes
we sing the song I surrender all
00:29:05.87\00:29:08.95
and I've sang it for many years
00:29:08.98\00:29:10.48
It's a wonderful song, but
are we really willing to let the
00:29:10.52\00:29:14.82
Lord have full
control of my life?
00:29:15.13\00:29:18.10
and that means in
my everyday affairs
00:29:18.13\00:29:21.23
am I willing, we
don't like this word I know
00:29:21.43\00:29:24.44
are we willing to let
the Lord be our Master and
00:29:24.48\00:29:27.46
and we be a slave
00:29:27.49\00:29:29.26
and, so now we're running out
of time this first section, but
00:29:29.30\00:29:32.64
at some point I want to come
back and talk about the fact
00:29:32.67\00:29:37.54
that nothing can touch us,
except that the Lord permits it
00:29:37.57\00:29:42.41
Amen
00:29:42.44\00:29:43.65
Are we really cool with that?
00:29:43.69\00:29:45.08
Does that mean that
the nails in Christ hand,
00:29:45.12\00:29:49.17
part of the will of God?
00:29:49.20\00:29:50.78
Well, we should
answer that question.
00:29:50.82\00:29:52.72
You know, we would
like to, when we come back
00:29:54.43\00:29:57.12
we're going to read Psalm 77
from the book as well, because
00:29:57.16\00:30:00.83
the Message
interpretation, really is great.
00:30:00.86\00:30:04.14
But, the thought that I
had is that, when you said
00:30:04.18\00:30:10.19
Trust His heart! Proverbs 3:5.6
says: Trust in the Lord with all
00:30:10.22\00:30:16.49
of your heart and lean
not on your own understanding
00:30:16.52\00:30:19.67
If we're not going to
lean on our understanding,
00:30:19.71\00:30:22.83
who are we going to lean on?
00:30:22.86\00:30:25.00
The Word of God,
His understanding.
00:30:25.04\00:30:28.24
And I believe, doctor,
you'd surely admit and agree
00:30:28.28\00:30:33.38
that as difficult as this was
to go through, it would've been
00:30:33.42\00:30:37.97
impossible without God.
00:30:38.00\00:30:40.08
Amen.
00:30:40.11\00:30:41.58
Well, facing a
sudden death in the family
00:30:41.61\00:30:44.91
is a very difficult event.
00:30:44.94\00:30:46.72
But, what about those who
are diagnosed with a disease
00:30:46.76\00:30:51.93
that brings
prolonged suffering and pain?
00:30:51.96\00:30:55.46
We've visited
pastor Dan and Kay Collins
00:30:55.49\00:30:58.94
from Battle Creek, Michigan
recently, and pastor Collins was
00:30:58.98\00:31:02.74
an evangelist for over 30 years
00:31:02.77\00:31:05.27
last summer though, he
was diagnosed with cancer
00:31:05.31\00:31:09.95
and given only
3-6 month to live.
00:31:09.98\00:31:13.19
But as you will see in this
interview, a wonderful peace
00:31:13.23\00:31:17.82
just flooded and surrounded
this couple in the time of
00:31:17.86\00:31:22.42
their trial
00:31:22.45\00:31:23.42
A peace that can only
come from a deep relationship
00:31:23.43\00:31:28.38
and faith in God
00:31:28.41\00:31:29.78
So, listen to this:
00:31:29.81\00:31:31.15
I'm 64 years old. I may
live to be 65, I may not.
00:31:32.10\00:31:38.25
That's few months away.
00:31:38.28\00:31:40.10
The important thing
is not how long I live.
00:31:40.14\00:31:44.96
Is the quality of
life that I've had.
00:31:44.99\00:31:49.12
Which is been
absolutely second to none.
00:31:49.16\00:31:53.28
I can tell you,
from laying in this bed
00:31:53.32\00:31:57.37
the things that are
going to be most precious
00:31:57.41\00:32:01.19
are going to be the times
that you spend with your mate
00:32:01.23\00:32:05.54
the times that
you spent searching
00:32:09.02\00:32:12.58
for others
00:32:13.80\00:32:16.33
the times that you
spent digging out God's will
00:32:18.33\00:32:27.67
for your lifestyle
00:32:27.70\00:32:31.30
those are the vitals
00:32:33.10\00:32:35.39
To know Him, to
draw close to your mate
00:32:35.43\00:32:40.87
and be committed to doing it.
00:32:40.90\00:32:44.13
I think that's what is the
chemistry for coming to the
00:32:44.43\00:32:50.47
end of the road and having peace
00:32:50.50\00:32:53.79
Peace. As we listened to pastor
Collins we were again impressed
00:32:55.43\00:33:00.61
that in the last days of
his life, he still had a burden
00:33:00.64\00:33:05.81
to share what he had found,
the hope that he had found,
00:33:05.84\00:33:10.19
in Jesus Christ with
those who are hurting
00:33:10.22\00:33:14.03
He opened his heart to us
and explained how this ministry
00:33:14.06\00:33:19.60
had prepared him
for his own illness.
00:33:19.63\00:33:22.80
I've been in the
ministry for 35 years
00:33:23.85\00:33:27.40
evangelism for 35
means a lot of sick beds
00:33:27.43\00:33:30.95
a lot of cancer dying people
00:33:30.98\00:33:34.35
and I've seen a lot of fear
00:33:34.39\00:33:37.69
I've seen a lot of
concern, a lot of breakdowns
00:33:37.73\00:33:42.25
a lot of tears.
00:33:42.28\00:33:43.56
And I wish you
could have some understand
00:33:43.60\00:33:47.78
as has been through the years
by one of my biggest convictions
00:33:47.82\00:33:55.32
one of my biggest burdens
have been in ministry that
00:33:55.35\00:34:00.48
God's given me: How can
I transmit to this person
00:34:00.51\00:34:07.70
walking down death
highway, that their attitude
00:34:07.74\00:34:14.90
and their approach to it
can change if they would come to
00:34:14.93\00:34:21.05
the Scripture, virtually
realizing that God has given us
00:34:21.09\00:34:27.20
hope in the Scripture.
00:34:27.23\00:34:31.40
We're so privileged to
have captured this testimony of
00:34:31.44\00:34:35.09
pastor Dan Collins.
00:34:35.12\00:34:36.53
Less than a month after our
interview this precious man of
00:34:36.57\00:34:41.01
God, went to his rest and
his wife Kay asked us to share
00:34:41.04\00:34:45.45
this video. It's a clip
that memorializes Dan's faith
00:34:45.48\00:34:50.07
to the end and
brings glory to God.
00:34:50.10\00:34:52.50
Jay, you know Kay personally.
How is she doing since Dan
00:34:52.54\00:34:57.20
passed away?
00:34:57.23\00:34:58.25
Well, Kay's trust is in
the Lord and she is doing good.
00:34:58.29\00:35:03.28
And all she can think about is
who she can win next to the Lord
00:35:03.32\00:35:08.66
And she wants to have a
part in the closing work of
00:35:08.69\00:35:12.84
the coming of the Lord.
00:35:12.87\00:35:14.04
she is going to do and
she is doing it right now
00:35:14.07\00:35:16.09
Praise God!
00:35:16.12\00:35:17.09
You know, it's amazing, her
strength. She lost her mother
00:35:17.10\00:35:19.30
right after Dan, so sometimes
you think about when it rains
00:35:19.34\00:35:22.06
it pours, but through it
all she just kept smiling
00:35:22.09\00:35:25.06
and putting that
trust in the Lord Jesus
00:35:25.09\00:35:27.16
Reminds me of Psalm 3:3 that
says that God is the lifter of
00:35:27.20\00:35:31.86
heads. I love that verse.
00:35:31.89\00:35:33.47
I just love that verse.
00:35:33.50\00:35:35.01
Now, we promised our
viewers and listeners that
00:35:35.05\00:35:38.79
we would read Psalm 77
from the Message Bible, that's
00:35:38.89\00:35:42.40
included in this beautiful
book: United by Tragedy
00:35:42.44\00:35:45.92
by dr. David Wilkins
00:35:45.95\00:35:47.49
Would you read
that to us, please.
00:35:47.53\00:35:49.09
Yes, I'm going just to read
a portion for second time here,
00:35:49.13\00:35:52.28
but I heard coming is coming.
00:35:52.31\00:35:54.29
Will the Lord walk off and
leave us for good? Will He never
00:35:54.33\00:35:56.96
smile again?
00:35:56.99\00:35:58.10
Is his love worn threadbare?
Has his salvation promise
00:35:58.14\00:36:01.84
burned out?
00:36:01.87\00:36:03.46
Has God forgotten his manners?
Has he walked off and stalked
00:36:03.50\00:36:08.97
off and left us?
00:36:09.00\00:36:09.97
Just my luck," I said.
"The High God goes out of
00:36:09.98\00:36:11.87
business just when I need Him. "
00:36:11.90\00:36:13.55
Once again I'll go
over what Yahweh has done,
00:36:13.59\00:36:17.30
there is the thankfulness
coming, the gratefulness.
00:36:17.34\00:36:20.02
In the midst of tragedy
I will lay out on the table
00:36:20.05\00:36:22.70
the ancient wonders;
00:36:22.73\00:36:24.08
I'll ponder all the
things You've accomplished,
00:36:24.12\00:36:26.87
and give a long,
loving look at Your acts.
00:36:26.90\00:36:31.10
That is crucial in
the midst of difficulty
00:36:31.13\00:36:35.26
It's just trying to say:
what has God done in the past?
00:36:35.30\00:36:37.60
what has He done?
00:36:37.70\00:36:39.47
O God! Your way is holy!
No god is great like God!
00:36:39.51\00:36:43.71
You are the God who
makes things happen.
00:36:43.74\00:36:45.53
You showed
everyone what You can do
00:36:45.56\00:36:47.44
You pulled your people out
of the worst kind of trouble,
00:36:47.48\00:36:49.47
and rescued the
children of Jacob and Joseph.
00:36:49.50\00:36:51.72
And then he talked more about
the awesomeness of the ocean
00:36:51.76\00:36:54.73
and he closes with this:
00:36:54.76\00:36:55.83
You rode, You strode
right through the Ocean,
00:36:55.87\00:36:59.36
walked straight through
roaring Ocean, but nobody saw
00:36:59.46\00:37:03.48
You come or go. Hidden in
the hands of Moses and Aaron,
00:37:03.51\00:37:07.50
You led your people
like a flock of sheep.
00:37:07.53\00:37:10.21
Shelley, what I really want
to focus on for just a moment is
00:37:10.24\00:37:12.83
this gratefulness in
the midst of difficulty
00:37:12.86\00:37:15.33
Just refer to a little earlier,
the story of them standing
00:37:15.37\00:37:18.14
and singing on
the banks, but what we
00:37:18.17\00:37:19.66
didn't hear is what this
catholic priest wrote and what a
00:37:19.70\00:37:25.50
Salvation Army captain wrote
00:37:25.53\00:37:30.46
and I want to
read, just a little bit
00:37:30.49\00:37:32.25
I can't capture as good
as the book can capture, so
00:37:32.29\00:37:34.35
if you bear with me I'm
going to read just a moment here
00:37:34.39\00:37:37.73
is John O'Donnell
priest saying this:
00:37:37.76\00:37:42.12
and this was kind of written up
and this was actually published
00:37:42.15\00:37:45.50
in the local newspaper
00:37:45.53\00:37:47.74
Is that eventually I began
to worry that we are holding up
00:37:47.78\00:37:51.39
the many other families waiting
to be a complied down from
00:37:51.43\00:37:55.01
the main barrier, as
we're on the beach singing
00:37:55.04\00:37:57.90
his recollection
00:37:57.93\00:38:00.68
But when I looked up I
saw everyone on the rocks
00:38:00.72\00:38:03.75
above us, the firefighters,
the police, the Red Cross
00:38:03.78\00:38:07.90
volunteers and other
family members and the chaplains
00:38:07.94\00:38:12.05
everyone was
transfixed by the singing family
00:38:12.08\00:38:18.50
Many were crying at the sight
of such grace and so much sorrow
00:38:18.54\00:38:24.24
Amen
00:38:24.27\00:38:25.70
We do not grieve
like other people grieve
00:38:25.74\00:38:28.65
because we have a hope.
00:38:28.68\00:38:30.22
And then the
Salvation Army put these words
00:38:30.26\00:38:36.29
and they got to be shared
00:38:36.32\00:38:38.19
Same recollection about event
00:38:38.22\00:38:41.39
That day on the shore line
listening to them, the Wilkins
00:38:41.43\00:38:45.61
family sing, was like hearing
angels in the midst of disaster
00:38:45.65\00:38:49.70
Amen.
00:38:49.73\00:38:50.70
Not for me only, but for
all those who were present.
00:38:50.71\00:38:53.94
There was quiet as the voices
sang to the open raging sea
00:38:53.98\00:39:00.46
and open sky.
00:39:00.49\00:39:02.05
I've to stop. That's what
thankfulness and gratefulness
00:39:02.09\00:39:05.44
allows you do: to look
Satan and all of the evil forces
00:39:05.47\00:39:08.86
and all the rage and all
the anger and look in their face
00:39:08.89\00:39:12.25
and sing praises
to the God of heaven.
00:39:12.28\00:39:16.21
Amen
00:39:16.24\00:39:17.21
they gave me courage to go
on each day at that time to care
00:39:17.22\00:39:22.95
for and support those
who experienced such grief
00:39:22.98\00:39:25.57
the Wilkins's showed by their
faith that their grieving was
00:39:25.61\00:39:31.11
different
00:39:31.14\00:39:32.11
I got to get this clear.
00:39:32.12\00:39:33.60
They grieve for the loss,
but live for the hope of reunion
00:39:33.64\00:39:38.47
some day.
00:39:38.50\00:39:39.47
Amen.
00:39:39.48\00:39:40.45
What a powerful testimony!
00:39:40.46\00:39:42.28
to faith in a God who loves us.
00:39:42.31\00:39:46.42
You know David, I hope to
live my life in such a way that
00:39:46.45\00:39:50.80
I'll stand on the sea of glass
with Monty some day, 'cause
00:39:50.90\00:39:53.81
I look forward to
meeting your precious son
00:39:53.84\00:39:56.46
Well, coming up next we're
going to discover how to achieve
00:39:56.50\00:40:02.12
the acceptance and
the peace that we need to
00:40:02.15\00:40:05.11
face the tough times.
00:40:05.14\00:40:06.49
And little later we'll be
taking some questions from our
00:40:06.53\00:40:09.40
live audience. So,
please, don't go away.
00:40:09.43\00:40:11.88
Has life done to
you some hard blows?
00:40:19.38\00:40:21.55
Are you struggling to
get through tough times?
00:40:21.59\00:40:24.19
If so, we have
just the books for you.
00:40:24.22\00:40:26.43
Find comfort as you read:
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"Why God Allows Trials
and Disappointments'" and
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"Growing Trough Life's
Toughest Times" for your
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free gift, write to us today at
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Welcome back to Up Close
00:41:02.54\00:41:05.83
We're talking today
about Facing The Tough Times
00:41:05.86\00:41:08.61
and our guest who are with
us are dr. David Wilkins and
00:41:08.65\00:41:12.60
Pastor Jay Gallimore
00:41:12.63\00:41:14.28
Now, Jay has often had to
stand by people through their
00:41:14.32\00:41:19.53
difficult times, and I'd
like to just turn to him now and
00:41:19.57\00:41:24.75
get serious
about some questions.
00:41:24.78\00:41:26.82
Jay, if does God love us
so much, how do we explain to
00:41:26.86\00:41:32.50
people why He allows
these things to happen.
00:41:32.53\00:41:35.96
Well, first of all we
don't understand everything
00:41:36.00\00:41:41.32
and that's where trust comes in
00:41:41.35\00:41:42.80
But I want to go back,
I'll come back to your question
00:41:42.84\00:41:46.08
But I want to go back to
a moment Dan and Kay Collins
00:41:46.11\00:41:49.32
experienced.
00:41:49.35\00:41:50.54
We were at a camp
meeting a year ago,
00:41:50.58\00:41:52.39
when the mercury point
came back and shared with me
00:41:52.43\00:41:55.71
and really was an ugly one and
00:41:55.74\00:41:58.83
I had happened to back up
that information just before
00:41:58.87\00:42:02.63
camp meeting started, I
was speaking on Friday night
00:42:02.66\00:42:05.15
the opening night
at the camp meeting
00:42:05.18\00:42:06.77
And I had prepared this
because some journey of my own
00:42:06.80\00:42:11.60
and here is a quote
from the little book
00:42:11.63\00:42:15.50
"Thoughts From The
Mount of Blessings" page 71
00:42:15.53\00:42:18.76
from Ellen White, that simply
reflects a text of Scripture
00:42:18.80\00:42:22.41
found in Romans 8:28,
which many people know
00:42:22.44\00:42:26.05
But I'll call you
of the end of this so
00:42:26.08\00:42:27.71
it's both string that text,
it's making that text a lumen
00:42:27.75\00:42:32.90
Here is the quote.
It's a fascinating quote
00:42:32.93\00:42:36.33
"The Father's presence encircled
Christ and nothing befell Him
00:42:36.37\00:42:40.98
but that which infinite love
permitted for the blessing of
00:42:41.02\00:42:45.60
the world. "
00:42:45.63\00:42:46.60
So I have to believe that
anything that happens to us
00:42:46.61\00:42:49.60
comes from a heart
of God's infinite love.
00:42:49.63\00:42:52.10
Amen.
00:42:52.13\00:42:53.18
Now, some people say, God
is not in charge of trouble
00:42:53.22\00:42:55.97
but once you surrender your life
to Christ nothing can touch you
00:42:56.01\00:43:01.47
unless He orders it, or allows
00:43:01.50\00:43:03.58
it amen
00:43:03.61\00:43:05.01
Nothing.
00:43:05.05\00:43:06.38
And that's hard for us to
accept as human beings, because
00:43:06.42\00:43:10.23
I, as I listened to this
comment, I was riding in the car
00:43:10.27\00:43:13.56
on the way to an ordination,
I had an argument with God
00:43:13.60\00:43:16.86
the argument went
something like this
00:43:16.89\00:43:18.54
'cause then
you're reaching deep down
00:43:18.57\00:43:21.04
and I was saying: Lord,
but you know, down reserved
00:43:21.08\00:43:24.03
the right to pray and ask
You to overturn some things that
00:43:24.07\00:43:28.10
I don't want
00:43:28.13\00:43:29.63
And then I came to
understanding that I had become
00:43:29.66\00:43:33.19
willing to accept whatever
God allow to come to my life
00:43:33.23\00:43:40.01
And that's not easy, because
we always want to reserve
00:43:40.30\00:43:44.89
the right to stay in control
and we have to give up control
00:43:44.93\00:43:47.37
and we have to
trust God's infinite love.
00:43:47.40\00:43:50.26
Now let me go on with this,
00:43:50.29\00:43:51.26
'cause this is
a tremendous quote
00:43:51.27\00:43:53.43
"Here was His
quite source of comfort
00:43:53.47\00:43:55.72
and it is for us. " Wow!
00:43:55.75\00:43:59.00
In other words, what the
comfort of Christ was that
00:43:59.04\00:44:03.29
nothing could happen to Him
except what His Father allowed
00:44:03.33\00:44:05.73
to happen
00:44:05.76\00:44:06.73
One thing I love about this
book, the journey of this book
00:44:06.74\00:44:09.59
is that this book in depth there
00:44:09.69\00:44:14.55
"He who is imbued
with the Spirit of Christ
00:44:14.59\00:44:18.96
abides in Christ.
00:44:18.99\00:44:20.33
The blow aimed at him, the
Christian falls upon the Savior"
00:44:20.36\00:44:25.19
Who is throwing the blow?
00:44:25.39\00:44:26.85
The adversary.
00:44:26.88\00:44:28.39
"who surrounds
him with His presence"
00:44:28.43\00:44:31.96
The Savior surrounds the
Christian with His presence
00:44:31.99\00:44:35.11
whoever, whatever comes to him,
the Christian comes from Christ.
00:44:35.15\00:44:39.98
He has no need to resist
evil, for Christ is his defends.
00:44:40.08\00:44:45.56
Nothing can touch him
except by Lord's permission,
00:44:45.59\00:44:50.15
and all things that are
permitted work together for
00:44:50.18\00:44:54.71
good to them that
love God. " Romans 8:28
00:44:54.74\00:44:58.36
Now, I want to come back.
Dan and Kay listened that night
00:44:58.40\00:45:01.28
and I'll tell you, this was
an anchor for them through this
00:45:01.32\00:45:04.17
whole terrible experience
00:45:04.20\00:45:05.34
I was there, they
called me the night Dan died.
00:45:05.38\00:45:09.51
And I was there at that
tender, almost awful moment
00:45:09.54\00:45:13.64
when the morticians come.
00:45:13.67\00:45:16.31
His lifeless body is laying
there and we are gathered in
00:45:19.21\00:45:23.82
that moment of darkness
settles over all of us, because
00:45:23.85\00:45:28.43
we understand
the finality of this
00:45:28.46\00:45:30.32
even that was
great hope in that room
00:45:30.35\00:45:33.30
and then we began to sing
00:45:33.33\00:45:36.66
and I think may be I was
impressed by what happened to
00:45:38.60\00:45:43.79
your family.
00:45:43.82\00:45:44.96
We began to sing and Kay
was on one side of me, others
00:45:45.00\00:45:49.99
we were there in a circle.
00:45:50.02\00:45:51.51
Kay began to sob, but then that
strong beautiful voice of hers
00:45:51.55\00:45:58.65
would pick up as we
sang those words: It is well,
00:45:58.68\00:46:02.99
it is well with my soul.
00:46:03.02\00:46:05.04
Another thing I was
deeply impressed with this great
00:46:05.08\00:46:12.57
experience that David Wilkins'
great, it may be not the word,
00:46:12.67\00:46:15.46
but tragic experience, they
went through, is that God had
00:46:15.49\00:46:18.25
His hand over them.
00:46:18.28\00:46:19.36
And even that they heard
this off the news, no official
00:46:19.40\00:46:22.50
confirmation, they're
getting ready to go back to home
00:46:22.53\00:46:25.60
in California, which
is all they could do.
00:46:25.63\00:46:29.77
They're alone, on the
plane, and on that plane
00:46:29.80\00:46:33.87
unknown to them is two of their
best friends, and they look up
00:46:33.91\00:46:41.58
and there they
see them on the plane.
00:46:41.61\00:46:43.80
Of course they
didn't know at that point.
00:46:43.84\00:46:46.28
But Jenna, your
wife makes that comment.
00:46:46.31\00:46:48.68
She leans over to you and
says something to the effect
00:46:48.72\00:46:52.10
God already is working
to bless us and help us.
00:46:52.13\00:46:55.46
He prepared to have
these people here, for us
00:46:55.50\00:46:58.76
and they were wonderful
comfort on that flight home.
00:46:58.80\00:47:00.94
I mean, who could put that
together, but the Lord Himself?
00:47:00.98\00:47:03.66
You see. Amen.
00:47:03.69\00:47:04.75
I'm telling you, that as we look
00:47:04.79\00:47:05.98
we will find the Divine
providences of God working.
00:47:06.02\00:47:09.34
You know, the book is
entitled "United by Tragedy"
00:47:10.55\00:47:14.03
and I just, David I want to
thank you for writing this book
00:47:14.07\00:47:19.93
Did you keep a journal?
00:47:19.96\00:47:21.49
What was it like for
you to share the story?
00:47:21.53\00:47:24.09
Did you find healing
as you wrote the story?
00:47:24.12\00:47:27.83
Well, for me, maybe not
for everyone, but for me
00:47:27.94\00:47:33.08
it was important to talk about
this incident and the tragedy
00:47:33.12\00:47:37.24
and my son.
00:47:37.27\00:47:38.24
There is several things that,
well 2 things are specifically
00:47:38.25\00:47:42.19
that for me were important.
00:47:42.22\00:47:43.44
When you loose a loved one
and you are given permission
00:47:43.47\00:47:48.67
to speak of him
often, speak of the values,
00:47:48.70\00:47:52.96
speak of the positive
memories and the experiences
00:47:52.99\00:47:55.45
and the things in
our lives that were worth
00:47:55.48\00:47:57.51
making part of your own
and you given permission
00:47:57.55\00:47:59.80
to do that frequently, you
began to make those values,
00:47:59.84\00:48:05.00
those positive things
part of your own life,
00:48:05.03\00:48:06.99
like Monty's
inclusiveness that you mentioned
00:48:07.02\00:48:08.91
I find myself a much more
inclusive person, now, because
00:48:08.95\00:48:11.52
of my son.
00:48:11.55\00:48:12.52
The second thing that I think
is critically important to me
00:48:12.53\00:48:18.27
to share this is while Monty
sleeps God's kingdom is growing
00:48:18.31\00:48:24.08
because of his life.
00:48:24.11\00:48:25.23
Amen. Amen.
00:48:25.26\00:48:26.90
And one day, when
he is in the kingdom,
00:48:26.94\00:48:31.61
there is going to be
stars in the crown of Monty
00:48:31.65\00:48:34.99
Amen.
00:48:35.02\00:48:35.99
Now, they came into that
kingdom because of the witness
00:48:36.00\00:48:39.94
of his life,
even while he rested.
00:48:39.97\00:48:41.44
You know, something that
you reached in that book that
00:48:41.48\00:48:44.04
has to come in on, is because
it struck me, I'm not ever heard
00:48:44.08\00:48:48.57
it this way was, I think
someone had mentioned to you
00:48:48.67\00:48:52.15
that you dying closure,
but you said, I believe I'm
00:48:52.18\00:48:55.01
I'm going to say right
there. There is no closure.
00:48:55.04\00:48:58.78
The life is ended, but
the relationship continues.
00:48:58.82\00:49:02.53
that's right.
00:49:02.56\00:49:03.53
And I believe that sometimes
when someone that is close to us
00:49:03.54\00:49:08.09
has faced a death, that if
they keep talking about it, it's
00:49:08.13\00:49:13.88
aren't we all often rather
trying to put them away and say
00:49:13.91\00:49:19.63
you need to put this
behind you and go on?
00:49:19.66\00:49:22.38
you know, you asked me earlier,
but I didn't have time to
00:49:22.42\00:49:26.00
respond, so I'll take
the liberty now; you asked me
00:49:26.03\00:49:28.66
what have you learn
about reaching to touch someone
00:49:28.70\00:49:31.26
there is two things that I
can say, they are really simple.
00:49:31.30\00:49:35.27
The first is: people in the
midst of the heat of this raw
00:49:35.31\00:49:39.25
experience need hugs, not words
00:49:39.28\00:49:41.44
oh, that's good.
00:49:41.47\00:49:42.48
And secondly, the most special
thing that happened to me, one
00:49:42.52\00:49:46.93
of the very special
things that happened to me was
00:49:46.96\00:49:49.23
a dentist friend of mine
in my church walked up to me
00:49:49.27\00:49:51.47
and said to me: Dave, I don't
ever tire of hearing you talk
00:49:51.51\00:49:56.60
about your son.
00:49:56.63\00:49:57.65
How precious!
00:49:57.69\00:49:58.66
Giving me permission
to do what I needed to do
00:49:58.68\00:50:01.94
and saying: I'm
interested, I want to hear it.
00:50:01.98\00:50:05.74
And I think, those
two things go a long way
00:50:05.78\00:50:09.47
in the heat of the moment
to really begin an opportunity
00:50:09.51\00:50:13.11
for the Lord to
start the healing process.
00:50:13.14\00:50:15.11
Step up to someone and
say, you know, I really care
00:50:15.15\00:50:18.73
about what's happening in
your life. Tell me about it.
00:50:18.77\00:50:22.32
That's good.
00:50:22.35\00:50:23.35
So, hug and a ready ear.
00:50:23.38\00:50:27.03
These are two great
gifts of God's love to someone
00:50:27.07\00:50:31.25
who is hurting.
00:50:31.28\00:50:32.51
Coming up next, we're going
to take questions from our live
00:50:32.55\00:50:35.51
audience. So,
please stay tune with us.
00:50:35.54\00:50:37.93
we're going to be talking about
workaholics. We certainly are.
00:50:48.09\00:50:51.32
We're going to be talking
about balancing work and family
00:50:51.35\00:50:55.49
and more specifically
about balancing our lives,
00:50:55.59\00:50:59.69
so we don't end
up being workaholics
00:50:59.72\00:51:01.98
And I was working 9-5 I guess,
for my dad, 5-9 at the mall
00:51:02.02\00:51:08.85
with my friends,
and Saturday and Sundays
00:51:08.95\00:51:12.07
More people acknowledged
what I did, the better I thought
00:51:12.11\00:51:14.72
for a while.
00:51:14.75\00:51:15.82
when we don't understand
the purpose for our life
00:51:16.24\00:51:20.28
and then our
priorities get mixed up
00:51:20.31\00:51:25.45
Don't miss it.
00:51:28.59\00:51:29.86
Welcome back to Up Close.
00:51:46.01\00:51:47.68
We're talking today
about Facing the Tough Times
00:51:47.72\00:51:50.68
and right now, we're going
to take some questions from our
00:51:50.72\00:51:54.48
live audience. And I believe
we have our first question right
00:51:54.51\00:51:59.43
now My name is Randy Ates and my
question is: My wife and I we're
00:51:59.46\00:52:03.24
overseas as missionaries
and right after we left
00:52:03.27\00:52:07.65
the pastor and his
wife and son was killed.
00:52:07.68\00:52:10.83
They lived just down the road
from us and one of the things
00:52:10.87\00:52:14.76
that happened was they were
fixing the house we lived in
00:52:14.79\00:52:18.65
and one of the workers killed
the pastor and wife and child
00:52:18.68\00:52:25.49
And it makes me feel
guilty at times, because
00:52:25.52\00:52:28.80
if we'd still be living there,
the house may not have been
00:52:28.84\00:52:30.91
worked on.
00:52:30.94\00:52:31.91
And what can I do to get rid
of this guilt and this pressure
00:52:31.92\00:52:36.79
that's built upon me to be able
to say it really wasn't my fault
00:52:36.83\00:52:41.98
Pastor Jay,
00:52:43.20\00:52:44.17
First of all guilt is a
wonderful thing if it's based
00:52:44.18\00:52:47.39
on truth.
00:52:47.42\00:52:48.39
if it's not based on
truth, it's not so good.
00:52:48.40\00:52:51.76
So you have to ask
yourself: are you really guilty?
00:52:51.80\00:52:54.02
I don't think you are. You
have nothing to do with that.
00:52:54.06\00:52:57.23
So, the other thing is that
you have to deal with feelings
00:52:57.27\00:53:00.70
feelings have got to be overcome
all kinds of crazy feelings
00:53:00.73\00:53:03.72
that run through our heads and
we have to surrender those to
00:53:03.76\00:53:06.72
Lord Jesus and say: Lord,
I know this is not the truth,
00:53:06.75\00:53:08.80
I don't know why I have
these feelings, but whatever
00:53:08.84\00:53:10.91
these feelings are, I
want to surrender them to You
00:53:10.94\00:53:12.98
and I don't choose
those feelings anymore.
00:53:13.01\00:53:15.05
That way you take
control of your feelings again
00:53:15.09\00:53:16.98
Hi, what's your name, please?
00:53:17.09\00:53:18.99
Hi. My name is Richard Garajuno
My question is: How much time is
00:53:19.03\00:53:23.59
to much to grieve?
00:53:23.62\00:53:24.89
Oh, I don't think there is
a pat answer for that. Do you?
00:53:24.93\00:53:29.93
I really don't. Dr. Wilkins
maybe better to answer that
00:53:29.96\00:53:34.93
question then.
00:53:34.96\00:53:35.93
Yes, doctor.
00:53:35.94\00:53:36.91
'cause he's been through it.
00:53:36.92\00:53:37.89
I think that thankfully we all
are wonderfully made different.
00:53:37.90\00:53:44.16
and we all have
a different make up
00:53:44.19\00:53:47.06
and the issue isn't how
long is a proper time to grieve
00:53:47.10\00:53:54.56
it is: do we grieve?
00:53:54.59\00:53:57.70
or do we suppress
that necessary experience
00:53:57.74\00:54:03.11
so that it
shows up in other ways
00:54:03.14\00:54:05.49
some people get ill, because
they have not grieve properly
00:54:05.53\00:54:09.51
some people are in denial,
because they have not allowed
00:54:09.55\00:54:13.81
themselves to grieve and
you'll fixate and situations
00:54:13.85\00:54:18.04
in that process that can be
very hard and difficult for you
00:54:18.08\00:54:22.10
to recover from, if you don't
have the freedom to grieve.
00:54:22.13\00:54:26.73
and we who are around people
who are in tragedy need to give
00:54:26.77\00:54:31.34
them permission,
still feel very strongly,
00:54:31.37\00:54:33.92
because they don't
want to talk about it.
00:54:33.95\00:54:36.43
Then keep coming back to them
and saying, I'm here if you feel
00:54:36.47\00:54:41.77
like sharing and burning
your heart, I can tell you very
00:54:41.80\00:54:45.61
wonderful story about how I
persisted in just being there
00:54:45.65\00:54:48.86
and saying: I'm here to
listen for a year and half for
00:54:48.90\00:54:52.08
a family who
lost their 4 year old
00:54:52.11\00:54:53.95
in a terrible accident.
00:54:53.98\00:54:55.03
Finally he called me a year
and a half later, and he said
00:54:55.07\00:54:58.45
I didn't answer your phone
calls It wasn't because I didn't
00:54:58.49\00:55:01.84
want to, I couldn't.
00:55:01.87\00:55:03.28
But he said: I read your book.
00:55:03.32\00:55:05.61
And it's been a blessing
00:55:05.64\00:55:07.07
praise the Lord.
00:55:07.10\00:55:08.07
And thank you for just letting
us know that somebody out there
00:55:08.08\00:55:10.64
cared even we wouldn't talk.
00:55:10.67\00:55:12.44
Could you, please, our
program is coming to an end
00:55:12.48\00:55:15.30
would you just kind of give
us your final thoughts on this
00:55:15.34\00:55:19.06
topic?
00:55:19.09\00:55:20.06
yes, I'll be happy to
00:55:20.07\00:55:21.33
number 1- Do something about
the anchor of your life now
00:55:21.37\00:55:25.00
Know the Lord. Get
to know the Lord, now.
00:55:25.03\00:55:27.89
Number 2: when you face
with difficulty and tragedy and
00:55:27.93\00:55:31.67
you can't explain it, look
to the cross of Calvary and know
00:55:31.71\00:55:35.42
that if God sent His
only begotten Son to the cross
00:55:35.45\00:55:38.76
because He loved us that
explains the unexplainable
00:55:38.80\00:55:43.09
and number 3: simply trust
in through it and know that
00:55:43.13\00:55:47.39
Romans 8:28 will come about.
00:55:47.42\00:55:49.87
You may not see it
immediately but at some point
00:55:49.91\00:55:52.84
that will happen.
00:55:52.87\00:55:54.16
Praising the Lord in the midst
of grief is the most important
00:55:54.20\00:55:59.02
thing you can do when
you are in the midst of it.
00:55:59.05\00:56:01.11
Amen.
00:56:01.14\00:56:02.25
Well, we just want to thank
our guests: Dr. David Wilkins
00:56:02.29\00:56:06.58
and pastor Jay Gallimore
for being with us today.
00:56:06.61\00:56:09.56
And in a moment we'll be
back with the final thoughts,
00:56:09.60\00:56:12.45
so please stay with us
00:56:12.48\00:56:13.75
Has life dealt to
you some hard blows
00:56:21.91\00:56:23.87
are you struggling to
get through the tough times?
00:56:23.91\00:56:26.72
if so, we have
just the books for you.
00:56:26.75\00:56:28.95
Find comfort as you read:
00:56:28.98\00:56:30.62
"Why God Allows Trials
and Disappointments" and
00:56:30.66\00:56:33.08
"Growing Through
Life's Toughest Times"
00:56:33.11\00:56:35.23
For your free gift
write to us today at
00:56:35.34\00:56:37.41
Dr. Wilkins' oldest son
maid this comment to his father:
00:57:03.23\00:57:09.61
Why are we on earth anyway?
00:57:09.64\00:57:11.13
And as Dr. Wilkins was trying
to explain all of this, his son
00:57:11.17\00:57:15.80
Darrin, said to him: Dad,
you making us much too hard.
00:57:15.83\00:57:19.21
And here is what Darrin said:
We are here for only 2 reasons
00:57:19.25\00:57:24.96
The first is to decide
to love and to serve Jesus
00:57:24.99\00:57:28.38
the second is to
help others do the same
00:57:28.41\00:57:31.38
Everything else is maintenance.
00:57:31.41\00:57:34.13
isn't that beautiful?
00:57:34.16\00:57:35.22
I just want to encourage you.
00:57:35.26\00:57:37.21
The Bible says in Isaiah
43:2 This is God speaking
00:57:37.24\00:57:42.68
And he says: Fear not,
for I have redeemed you
00:57:42.71\00:57:48.14
have you accepted His
00:57:48.17\00:57:50.24
redemption? He says I have
called you by your name and you
00:57:50.28\00:57:54.79
are Mine When you pass through
the waters I will be with you
00:57:54.82\00:57:57.52
and through the rivers,
they will not overwhelm you
00:57:57.56\00:58:00.85
when you walk through the
fire you'll not be burned or
00:58:00.88\00:58:04.10
scorched for I am the Lord
your God, the holy One of Israel
00:58:04.14\00:58:09.08
Remember this: God is in
the fiery trial with you.
00:58:09.11\00:58:14.09
You are never alone.
00:58:14.12\00:58:16.00
He never leaves
you or forsakes you.
00:58:16.04\00:58:18.35
Thank you so much
for joining us today.
00:58:18.38\00:58:20.66
And until the next
time may God bless you.
00:58:20.69\00:58:23.13
Captioning and subtitles
by Christian Media Services
00:58:56.15\00:58:59.20