Participants: Don Mackintosh (Host)<\br> 01. Marti Jones<\br> 02. Mike McKinnon<\br> 03. Debbie Edgerton
Series Code: UC
Program Code: UC000401
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00:23 Hello and welcome to another edition of Up Close.
00:26 We are coming to you from the 'Three Angels' Seventh Day 00:29 Adventist church in Wichita Kansas, where we have a live 00:32 audience participating with us. 00:34 We are happy that you are able to join us too. 00:37 Today we are going to be talking about a subject 00:39 that we often don't want to think about, yet one that 00:42 we can't get around. Experiencing the death of a 00:44 of a loved one is something we all had to face sooner or all 00:47 will have to face sooner or later and many of us have 00:50 already dealt with it. We have some very special guests 00:53 with us today, in fact two families who had gone through 00:57 the tragedy of losing a loved one. 00:58 And we also have a chaplain from one of the largest 01:01 hospitals in the country, and we're going to be talking about 01:05 how we can cope with the pain and loss and also how we can 01:09 help others get through it. 01:10 Our first guest today will be Mike McKinnon from Tampa Florida 01:14 Mike has been a biker for most of his life. 01:16 He lived a lifestyle that was not the healthiest. 01:19 He became addicted to drugs and alcohol and after hitting 01:23 bottom, he got clean and sober through a twelve step program 01:27 about sixteen years ago. And his life changed drastically but 01:31 although he believed in God and his wife and daughter had 01:34 started attending the Seventh Day Adventist Church, Mike 01:37 wasn't interested at all. 01:39 He especially he didn't want to hear anything about Jesus Christ 01:43 But all that changed and Mike's here to tell us what happened. 01:47 Things were going pretty well for Mike and his family but one 01:49 night tragedy struck. His daughter Autumn was engaged to 01:53 a young man named Jason and one night they called and said they 01:57 were coming over but they never showed up. And here's what 02:01 happened next. 02:04 We must have gone to bed sometime late that night. 02:07 Early that morning Doreen got up early and she was trying to 02:12 still call and she didn't hear. And then our friend who lived 02:18 right across the street from Autumn called and asked why 02:23 there were some police cars over at Autumn's house. 02:26 Of course Doreen got kind of hysterical and tried to call 02:31 her cell phone again and the highway patrol answered. 02:36 And right then Doreen knew something was wrong. 02:40 And they said they don't know me over the phone but there 02:45 there had been an accident at about three in the morning and 02:50 they had been trying to get in touch with somebody, 02:54 that she and Jason had been killed in a car accident. 03:00 It's strange how in that split second your whole life can 03:06 change. 03:08 Isn't that true? In just one split second your life 03:11 can change. Many people became or become, should I say, very 03:15 angry with God when they lose a loved one. Some feel that God 03:20 should have prevented their death. And others feel like God 03:23 has taken a loved one from this Earth. Here's how Mike 03:27 reacted to his loss. 03:31 I was very.... Right from the start I was angry with God. 03:37 See... Autumn had been that... she had been such a good kid. 03:43 A pastor comes and I'm meeting for the first time a young 03:52 pastor, 25-26 years old, full of energy. You know he...I thank 03:58 God so much today that he didn't come in and tell me that it 04:04 would be ok, that he had an answer because the first thing 04:10 he told us that he didn't have any answer for what happened. 04:13 He didn't understand it any more than we did. 04:19 That was a wise young pastor to just know that probably just 04:23 to be there was the most important thing. 04:25 We're glad today that Mike McKinnon is with us. 04:29 We want to welcome him to the program today. 04:32 Mike thank you so much for being here. 04:36 Thank you for being willing to share such things that are 04:41 that are close to your heart. So this loss, like you said 04:48 just in a split second things can change. You would never have 04:52 thought that when that baby was born, would you? 04:55 No you, you never think about your children dying before you. 05:01 You know as time goes on you think your parents are getting 05:08 older; you see it coming so you kind of prepare. 05:12 But you never, never prepare for your child. 05:18 Just out of complete loss when it happened... 05:23 I didn't have any... I'm thankful... 05:27 Eleven years of her life she only knew one thing: 05:31 me drinking, riding motorcycles and drugs. 05:37 But the Lord helped me for the last eleven years of her life, 05:40 she saw a different side. And that was a blessing. 05:43 Even though I didn't know Jesus, didn't want to know Him, 05:48 Dear God I thought that was enough. 05:53 You know you were talking before the program about having 05:57 to make the arrangements for the burial and what where some 06:02 of the hardest things that you had to deal with. 06:04 Oh! You go to the funeral home, and you have to pick out 06:09 casket, you have to decide where they are going to be 06:14 buried and this is the morning after and you're just in total 06:20 shock. We looked around, we found this place that when we 06:25 saw it we knew. She loved cows. Her whole house had... 06:30 She had the walls painted like a big brown cow. 06:33 And the floors were black and white and we saw this place that 06:37 had cows right behind it. And there were some cows up at the 06:42 fence so that was something the Lord did for us, 06:47 gave her a place to be. 06:49 It must have been hard picking that site. 06:52 Although Mike coped as best as he knew how, he could not let go 06:56 of his anger against God. At the same time his wife and 07:00 daughter started finding more and more support in the church 07:03 and were studying to be baptized. 07:05 Mike, tell us about that. 07:09 This young pastor, Pastor Andrew Moreno was our youth pastor at 07:15 our church and he was coming over after the accident and 07:21 my wife told me she wanted to wait for me to be baptized but 07:27 she said she couldn't wait any longer. 07:28 And so he started coming over and I got to know him a little 07:32 bit. Joked around with him, he'd laugh, I'd laugh, they would go 07:36 into the dining room to do their lesson and I'd be sitting in the 07:40 other room and I'd be cracking jokes at them as they were going 07:45 through but I was listening too. And I was so angry. I just ... 07:49 Why would God do this to a good kid? 07:54 You read in the paper that there are so many out there who are 07:59 doing things that they shouldn't be doing. But I heard 08:02 and I started listening and somewhere along the way 08:06 I decided that I needed that. 08:08 So you started to join in on the Bible studies. 08:11 No, not exactly I just listened and I started going to church 08:15 a little bit with them and going to the dinners on Saturday, 08:19 afterwards. 08:21 I love that. 08:22 Thanks. Started participating with the clean up a little bit 08:27 and then I told Andrew that I wanted to be baptized with my 08:32 family. 08:33 Before that happened, you said that your anger continued to 08:36 grow. 08:37 Mike knew he needed to let go of it but he just didn't know how. 08:40 So he asked his friends what he's to do and their answer was 08:43 was pretty unusual. What did they say when you talked to your 08:46 friends? 08:48 Well I got into a twelve step program and I still participate 08:52 even today and it's a good thing to stay involved. 08:56 And I was sharing about how angry I was with God and they 09:00 said 'Well what do we do when we are angry at somebody else? 09:04 We pray for them, pray for them to have a good day. ' 09:07 And I said 'Well I could do that.' And I prayed for God to 09:13 have a good day. And that helped. 09:17 Before long I was listening more to the Bible studies. 09:22 A miracle happened in Mike's life as he continued to pray. 09:26 Here's what he had to say. 09:30 Somewhere along the line I quit asking God why, and asked the 09:36 next question I was asking him. What can I do so that one day 09:41 maybe I could see her again? And then I started finding out 09:47 from the Bible about Jesus and the love that He brought to us. 09:52 And how He freely gave it to us and He didn't want anything in 09:57 in exchange. The only thing He asked us to do to tell somebody 10:01 about Him. That was such an easy thing to do. 10:07 But you know what I found that more people were seeing it 10:12 because I wasn't doing the same things that I'd done for years. 10:17 I could always be abusive to people. But I wasn't abusive. 10:27 I had to live up to this. I thought I was a biker for years. 10:34 Today I just want to be a Christian. I want to be a better 10:42 one than I was yesterday. That's one of my prayers. 10:45 Help me to be a better Christian today than I was yesterday. 10:49 Because yesterday I wasn't as good, I hope I'll be better 10:57 tomorrow. 10:59 That's a wonderful prayer. Has He answered that prayer for you? 11:01 Many times over. My life has changed drastically. 11:08 I'm involved with men's ministry at our church. We have breakfast 11:16 every Sunday morning. I give them myself today. 11:20 Instead of taking, it's what I can give today. You know my 11:26 question for a long time was 'What could God do for me?' 11:33 Today it's what can I do for God? 11:36 Amen. That's wonderful. 11:39 You know, there's that song that says that every day with Jesus 11:43 is sweeter than before and that sounds like what you are saying. 11:46 That's what I find. Every day when I read my lesson or just 11:51 read something in the Bible, it comes across how much more 11:56 precious life is. And what Jesus did for us by coming 12:01 and walking in my shoes; I'll never be able to fill the shoes 12:06 that he walked in, then maybe I can just walk beside him. 12:11 Yeah. Thank you so much Mike for sharing your story. 12:16 Our next guest is a chaplain 12:17 from one of the largest hospitals 12:19 in the country and she deals with thousands of patients and 12:22 their families each year who face serious disease and 12:25 terminal illnesses. So don't go away. We'll be right back 12:29 to talk to this chaplain. 12:32 Next week on Up Close. 12:34 We'll center on one of the most pervasive problems of our 12:38 generation: drug addiction. 12:40 There is great hope for recovery as Amanda is a testimony to. 12:45 When I met Amanda it was during the time that she was pregnant 12:48 and Dave was just getting out of prison and those kind of things. 12:52 So I worked with addicts and the only thing I know for sure 12:55 about God and about recovery is that God does amazing things 12:59 with us. 13:00 I didn't realize that slowly I was being dragged into this 13:03 world that was going to take me seven years to get out of. 13:07 Next week on Up Close: Escaping Drugs and Alcohol Addictions. 13:11 Don't miss it. 13:19 Welcome back to Up Close. We've just heard from Mike McKinnon 13:23 who shared his story about the loss of his daughter and how he 13:26 he struggled with being angry with God and we want to find out 13:30 more about the process of grieving. 13:32 Our next guest Marti Jones the chaplain for Florida Hospital, 13:37 or one of the chaplains in Orlando, one of the largest 13:40 hospitals in the country. As a matter of fact it's one of the 13:45 largest in the nation around the world they say. 13:48 It's a huge complex. So we're glad that you're here Marti 13:52 and we would just like to welcome you. 13:53 Let's welcome Marti. 13:55 Thank you. It's so good to be here too. 14:00 Well you know Mike told us about his loss. You were listening in 14:05 in on that. And how in a split second everything changed and 14:11 and how there was you know, just a complete change in his life. 14:16 Is it common for people to go through this kind of experience, 14:21 this kind of stages, if you will , of being angry with God? 14:26 Absolutely. In fact what he was displaying was very normal, 14:30 very human. We go through stages of you know the initial, we can 14:36 say, shock, numbness. Then we can even go through a stage of 14:41 denial or we just can't believe it's true. Then of course the 14:46 the stage that Mike mentioned which was anger. There's a stage 14:50 where we bargain. And of course finally there's a stage what we 14:55 call acceptance, acceptance of something we can't change. 15:00 So what he felt was very, very normal and very common and 15:04 something that I believe, is a good process to go through. 15:08 So when someone comes to you and they're just angry, they're 15:12 just bitter about what happened, what do you do to help someone 15:15 like that? 15:16 Well you listen. It's just amazing what listening will do. 15:20 You know, Mike mentioned, for instance, that this young pastor 15:24 didn't come in with any pet answers and explained to him 15:28 what he was feeling. Because the pastor had no clue what Mike 15:32 was feeling or his family. And so he was very wise in saying 15:36 up front 'I don't have any answers.' And because he lent 15:39 friendship and continued to come and just listen and be 15:42 available. That was really what Mike needed and his family more 15:46 than anything. 15:47 What if someone's angry for a number of years, 15:49 is that different? 15:51 Sure. Anything that hangs on you so that in essence begins to 15:56 hurt you. You know how that is don't you? You hold on to 15:59 resentment and anger and pretty soon, whoever you're angry at, 16:03 they're not being affected but guess who is? You are. Your 16:07 health, your state of being, other relationships are being 16:10 affected by your anger, so that would not be a healthy response 16:14 for long term. 16:15 Coming up next we're going to hear from a lady who found out 16:20 that her husband was terminally ill with cancer, and how she 16:24 and her three children coped with the death of their father. 16:28 So don't go away, we'll be right back. 16:32 Are you grieving the loss of a loved one? Do you find yourself 16:36 struggling to understand God and your sorrow? What about your 16:39 children, how do you help them? We have just the books for you. 16:42 Call or write today to receive your free gift of the 16:45 'The Ultimate Survivor' and 'Helping kids Deal with Death.' 16:48 Just write to us at Up Close: PO Box 220, West 16:51 Frankfort, Illinois 62896 or call us during regular business 16:55 hours. Ask for Up Close Offer Number One. 17:09 Welcome back to Up Close. We're talking today about how to cope 17:13 with illness or the death of a loved one. And next we're going 17:17 to hear from Debbie Edgerton from Orlando, Florida. 17:21 Debbie and her husband Brent had already been through a lot in 17:24 their life with miscarriages serious illnesses and finally 17:28 the loss of a job. Then God led them to Hinsdale Illinois and it 17:33 seemed that their dreams were coming true. 17:35 Brent had a new job and they had a new home and they thought 17:39 could finally put their tragedies behind them. 17:41 But things can change very quickly as they soon found out. 17:45 Brent had got a small tumor removed a few years earlier and 17:48 when they went back to the hospital for a check up, they 17:51 weren't ready for what they found. 17:53 Listen to what Debbie shared with us. 17:55 And sure enough the next day they did the MRI and they said 17:59 the tumor is back, it's twice as big as it was before and 18:02 then they walked out of the room and we were left there. 18:12 And we cried. 18:15 And we said this is going to be bad. But maybe there's hope. 18:21 And we prayed and we got on the phone and we called his family. 18:33 And his two brothers and his sister, and his mom and dad were 18:39 all in Illinois within 48 hours. 18:44 We had to tell the children that daddy's tumor was back and our 18:51 oldest son cried and he was still sad and he was old enough 18:55 to grasp that. He said 'Mummy people with cancer die. When 19:00 will daddy die?' 19:03 Wow. I guess Debbie was a friend of yours there in Orlando before 19:07 she moved and after she moved to Hinsdale, is that right? 19:10 Actually Debbie and I met just this last year during the 19:13 holiday. Interesting enough God brought us together on a chance 19:17 meeting in a mutual friend's home for a holiday get-together. 19:22 And that's how we met. She told me her story and what she had 19:26 gone through. And it was through that experience that she had 19:30 an opportunity to share it at 3ABN. 19:33 How do you deal with realities like this? You know, you see 19:38 thousands of patients a year and you're with them when they get 19:41 the test results. And you've probably heard people who have 19:45 gone through this and this is just one of many. 19:47 But how do you deal with that? 19:49 Well notice her own words here. They are beautiful. 19:55 Sometimes we skip over feelings. We miss something when we do 20:01 that. One of the things that we try to do in ministry is to walk 20:06 the journey with the individual. Debbie and her husband had small 20:10 children to deal with, they had to begin to prepare them, to get 20:15 them ready. It wasn't even as if they could say 'It's just 20:18 just between you and I and we'll go through this together.' 20:21 Now the children are involved and they had to find a way to 20:24 to let the children know that the things are very bad without 20:27 destroying all hope in them. 20:29 That's difficult place to find yourself. What's really special 20:33 and important is to keep the link, the connection in the 20:37 family, in other words the openness. 20:39 Being able to share with your children and allow them the same 20:43 time that you have had to accustom themselves to the news. 20:46 Because they go through shock, they go through the denial, 20:49 they can't believe this is happening. So a lot of patience 20:52 is needed on the side of the parents even though they 20:55 themselves are hurting. 20:56 Some of the kids maybe never have even thought about these 21:00 issues. It's not like most of the story books out there say 21:04 'And then Spot the dog died.' I don't think I've ever read 21:08 a book like that. 21:09 No. 21:10 So they are not really dealing with those kinds of things. 21:12 No. And of course you don't expect it typically at that age. 21:16 Brent was a young man, it wasn't as if that was an anticipated 21:19 end to this story. It would have been much better for them 'And 21:22 they lived happily ever after', you know, in their new location 21:26 and there new home. But we know that in this life there are 21:30 going to be illnesses, there are going to be deaths. 21:32 And so the question remains how do we as Christians cope with 21:37 these things and help our children, our family to cope 21:40 with that. 21:41 As things progressed and Debbie realized that they were not 21:44 able to do anything, her big question was 'How do I tell the 21:49 the kids?' Listen to what she said about this.' 21:53 The day before we brought him home, the day before I told the 21:58 kids that daddy wasn't going to survive this illness 22:05 I realized I needed a lot of grace, I realized I was very 22:09 angry and I said I need some time alone before I deal with 22:14 this. So I had someone take the kids for me for twenty-four 22:18 hours and his sister and his parents staid with him in the 22:22 the hospital and I took twenty-four hours to pray. 22:25 And I said I don't want any visitors at the house, and I 22:29 just needed some time alone with God. And I called several 22:33 health care institutions and I said 'Is there anything we can 22:38 do?' And there's nothing. We'd sent his records all over the 22:42 the place. And so I cried and I told God that I wasn't happy 22:47 with this outcome. And how can I tell my children? 22:59 And the last time when I talked about it, the most important 23:03 thing for us is that our children didn't reject Jesus 23:07 because this prayer wasn't answered. 23:14 And that we had had Brent anointed early on and with 23:21 anointing there are three healings. There's the healing of 23:25 the spirit that God always offers. There's the healing of 23:29 the body miraculously which hadn't occurred in our case, and 23:33 there's the healing of the body and spirit over time which 23:38 sometimes medical science can do and none of that had happened. 23:41 We were left with the answer that I love you and I healed 23:45 your spirit but you're going to lose your life. 23:50 Well you can really sense the pain of having to process those 23:54 things. What to do? And I'm sure you've been there many times 23:58 too where you're at an anointing service and the children know 24:02 about that and the expectations are perhaps raised. How do you 24:06 talk to children when they are at an anointing service? 24:11 Well of course the main thing again, Debbie said it so 24:16 beautifully, God always offers us healing, spiritual healing, 24:21 that's always guaranteed 100%. 24:23 We know all of us who have who have been touched by death, 24:27 you know, I buried our first son and so in my ministry that has 24:32 been helpful to me in dealing with children and with families 24:38 and reminding them that not everyone is going to be healed 24:43 from physical ailment. In fact sometimes we judge faith by 24:49 whether or not people are healed almost assuming that if we have 24:52 enough faith everybody would be healed. 24:54 Well I happen to know that's not true. 24:56 I buried my first son, nearly buried my second and I know that 25:00 there are bad things that happen in this world and that the main 25:05 thing for me is to get across to the children that 'Yay, 25:08 though I walk through the valley and the shadow of death I need 25:11 not fear any evil' because He's with me. He really is. 25:14 So children can understand that kind of like mummy and daddy 25:18 being with them when it's dark and holding their hand and in 25:22 the same way Jesus is with us even when things get very dark. 25:25 It is very important to keep talking about it to children. 25:28 Children don't get it just from the first time. So even 25:32 if they are in an anointing service I always take the time 25:35 to just hold them to explain what is happening, what is about 25:38 to happen and that we are asking for the Holy Spirit to be with 25:42 daddy, to heal him or to walk with him through this whole 25:46 illness. 25:47 Is it good to have the children there for that prayer or not? 25:49 I believe that it is at a certain age. 25:52 Some children are too young and they wouldn't be able to 25:55 understand and in fact they become confused by what's going 25:59 on. But at an age when the child is mature enough to understand 26:02 and you're explaining things and they want to be a part and you 26:06 can even say 'Would you like to go and participate?' 26:08 If the child is willing that's a good experience for them. 26:12 Debbie was anxious about talking with the children as you can 26:15 tell. As Debbie told the kids, here is how they responded. 26:21 My ten year old, with the wisdom of a child, stopped crying 26:27 first and said 'Mommy at least we had a really good daddy 26:32 while we had one. And daddy always taught us at 26:37 Sabbath school and daddy wasn't mean to us, daddy played with us 26:42 and he was always reading and he would read us our story and 26:47 he would talk to us about God and he believes in God and he's 26:51 not leaving because he wants to, he's only leaving because he 26:56 has to. And he said ' I know lots of my friends whose dads 27:00 are gone because they've chosen to be gone or because they 27:03 can't be nice people' and he said 'I'm just really glad we 27:08 had a nice dad, that I can always hold on to the fact that 27:12 he really loved us. And then my thirteen year old dried his 27:15 tears and started, they both started talking about the good 27:19 things that their dad had done with them. And then my little 27:23 girl started piping up 'Yeah' he did this and he played with me 27:27 and he used to call me his little squirrel girl. And so 27:32 what I was fearful would be, had been unbearable time that maybe 27:37 I'd bitten of more than I could chew , may be I should have had 27:42 backup help to explain this to the kids. 27:44 It started turning into a powerful time of sharing that 27:49 showed me that God was speaking to these children that He would 27:53 be there for me. Psalm 68:5 says 'I will be father to the 28:01 fatherless and I will be defender of widows" and I 28:06 could claim that I could see already that Jesus was helping 28:09 me to parent these children and He was speaking to them to help 28:13 them get through this great loss that they would feel. 28:17 Well that's touching isn't it? Now this brings tears to my eyes 28:21 to have to process that. 28:24 You know she was nervous about including these children but 28:28 the Lord was speaking to those children. Do you see that? 28:32 Oh, absolutely. And remember too that Debbie took twenty-four 28:35 hours. Remember she said she had a friend take the children 28:38 for those twenty-four hours she needed time alone to talk 28:42 with God. And my friends, we need that communion, we need His 28:47 wisdom. We don't have in the fleshly wisdom the wisdom that 28:51 God has. Doesn't he say:' My ways are higher than yours even 28:54 even as the heavens are higher than the earth'? And so here 28:58 the Lord honored that time that she spent with Him by already 29:01 being that companion she would need in the days to come. 29:05 How beautiful is the evidence of that? The children indeed 29:09 were becoming the comfort to their mother. Beautiful. 29:11 Now Mike I understand from your story that one of your children 29:19 was killed but you had one that was remaining. 29:22 Yes. 29:23 And how did it go when you talked with... Was it Amber that 29:29 was remaining? How did that go? 29:31 She withdrew into a shell and she was going to a place called 29:40 The Refuge which was a Christian rock refuge place. But she was 29:48 withdrawn. But since then, because Autumn and her had just 29:53 finally made friends, seven years apart in age and they were 29:59 getting to be friends. But since that time she has come to an 30:04 an understanding. 30:07 And have you talked with her a lot or her mother did or how 30:11 did that work? How did she come to that understanding? 30:13 We were always there, open, we would talk about Autumn, how we 30:19 missed her. She would talk with us and share about missing her. 30:25 And pastor Andrew gave very good support, tried to get her, to 30:31 include her in any activities that were going on. 30:35 How beautiful. 30:36 So it is important to include children in these discussions 30:41 and letting them know of your feelings and not trying to be 30:44 the strong person. 30:45 I believe that. I believe also what Mrs. Marty said that at 30:49 a certain age you have to include them. When we went to 30:54 the funeral home, she went with us. We didn't want her to feel 30:59 excluded. She was thirteen. We wanted her to feel like she was 31:03 part of this. Because she was. Your children are part of 31:09 what's going on in your life. 31:10 And you know that's very healthy thing too, that we keep 31:15 the memory of that precious loved one alive and talk about 31:20 person and express, you know, these memories the things that 31:25 we enjoyed, the way God brought us near to each other, 31:29 the relationships and what made them so beautiful and what made 31:32 us the family so special together. Sometimes people think 31:36 that's going to bring up the bad feelings, but really it allows 31:40 people to express their feelings and that's heal. So expression 31:44 of our feelings is the task that we need to go through as we're 31:48 grieving for the loss of a loved one. 31:49 We talked a little bit about what to do after someone dies. 31:54 But what do you say, Debbie, her husband was going to die; what 31:57 do you say to somebody who is facing death. You've probably 32:01 been involved in that many times. But what should someone 32:04 say to a family member? 32:06 Well I think just number one validating for them what they 32:11 are feeling at the moment. For instance if a family member 32:14 comes to me and says 'Chaplain we've just found out my mum's 32:16 report is positive and we're going to lose her.' At that 32:19 moment you're not going to sit there and talk to them long. 32:22 I will usually take and embrace them, that's the first thing 32:26 that I do. I don't have to say anything because at that moment 32:29 what that person needs to know is that someone cares about the 32:32 pain they are going through. Someone is going to be there 32:35 to walk them through. So, many times our presence, our very 32:39 presence, not saying anything, just holding someone's hand, 32:43 reaching over and letting them know that you're sensing they're 32:46 hurt 'I can see you're hurt and I'm here for you right now' 32:50 That is so important. Start out small and don't allow yourself 32:54 to get stuck in the idea that I have to remedy this for them 32:58 because you can't. 32:59 And after you've done that is there anything you could, 33:03 should say? What would you say? 33:04 I would say to them, I would say, just like in Mike's case 33:07 where the pastor kept coming over regularly on a regular 33:11 interval, and I would say 'How are you doing today? How 33:14 are you dealing today with what news you received two days ago? 33:18 And let them express to me how they are and where they are at 33:21 because that's very important. They may be in anger they may 33:25 be in stages of denial. I need to know that in order to help 33:28 them. 33:29 So you would say, is it possible for someone after they've 33:32 processed that, and I know that's a process. But have you 33:36 seen people come to peace with the fact that they may die 33:39 very soon? 33:40 Oh yes, absolutely. In fact peace is where we want to get 33:44 isn't it? Where we want to get for the person who is ill and 33:48 about to die and for those who maybe are around them and 33:52 preparing for that. In Mike's case it was a shock. 33:55 He didn't have time to prepare for that. 33:58 That was particularly difficult. 34:00 Well we want to look at a clip now that shows us Debbie's 34:07 husband Brent, his last prayer. 34:11 And I think this will be very meaningful. 34:13 We were sitting, watching some show and he said 'Turn the TV 34:17 off, we need to pray'. And I was very surprised because he 34:22 was very lucid that day. And he had been kind of in and out for 34:25 a few days. And I said 'Ok.' And we turned the TV off and we 34:28 came around and his sister and I, one at each side of the bed. 34:31 And he said 'I'll pray first and then you pray.' 34:35 I said 'Ok'.' 34:42 And he prayed, thanking God for all His 34:46 blessings, thanking God for a wonderful life, for being born 34:50 into a good home and for being able to create a good home. 34:54 Thanking God for his children and his wife. 35:01 And he said 'Thank you Jesus that you'll walk me into your 35:06 arms". And then he prayed for us, that God would bless us 35:10 and that we would go on to lives happy, productive lives. 35:14 And he said 'Lord make all their memories good ones.' 35:18 We prayed that prayer on October 8th and he died on October 9th. 35:25 And it's been a big comfort for the kids and I to know that 35:30 the day before he died, he knew he was going to die and his 35:36 focus was on meeting Jesus. And he wasn't bitter and he wasn't 35:41 angry. He was sorry to lose the fact that he wouldn't get to 35:47 watch his kids grow up. But he was at peace with his Savior. 35:55 Wow! Last words are so important, and you know... 35:58 I tell you, this is touching. When I saw these clips before 36:01 we were preparing, this brings tears to your eyes but 36:04 beautiful tears. 36:05 You've seen a lot of people die. Is it better to die knowing God 36:12 or not knowing God? 36:14 Oh absolutely knowing Him. In fact, you know, it's very 36:17 interesting Don but I have never had occasion at someone's 36:22 bedside who is dying who have said to me 'Oh I had these many 36:27 titles behind my name.' Or 'I had these many homes.' Or 'I was 36:31 successful because this is what I acquired in life' Or 'This is 36:35 who I have become.' What they talk to me about is their 36:38 relationships. Either they are saying to me 'Oh I wish I'd 36:43 taken more time with my family.' Sometimes they'll be alone 36:47 completely. The only one who is there is the chaplain who is 36:51 ministering to that family. And you know in your heart that 36:55 you are not making up for the loss of that family. And you 36:59 think for yourself how different it is for a person who is 37:03 dying who has the family around him and who knows that love 37:06 and that caring and like Brent had this sense about thanking 37:12 God, right? Make all your petitions known to God with 37:16 thanksgiving for what He had done for him, the beautiful 37:20 family that He had given him. He had hope. 37:23 And that's the difference the Lord makes in our life. 37:26 It's that we have hope. 'Yay thought I walk through that 37:29 valley in shadow of death', I don't need to fear the evil 37:33 because You are with me. That is a beautiful comfort to those 37:36 who believe. 37:37 You know sometimes we're nervous to talk to people who 37:41 are facing death or in the hospital about spiritual things. 37:45 We wonder whether it's appropriate. Is there a way, 37:51 let's say the person doesn't have a faith like Brent had. 37:56 I mean that's a beautiful faith. 37:57 Yes. 37:58 But they start to have an openness. Can you lead them to 38:01 that? What do you say? I know you listen first. 38:04 Sure. No. 38:05 I know you're sensitive. But are there things you do to help 38:10 people? 38:11 Sure. And I think one of the best things to do is, number one 38:14 express first of all your caring for that person. 'So you've 38:19 been very special to me. I've come by and visited you now for 38:23 several days and I've met your family and I've been walking 38:27 this journey with you and I just need to ask you today; where is 38:31 your relationship with the Lord? What is going on with you 38:34 spiritually?' 38:35 That opens the door and invites the person to express what 38:39 their condition is. They may say to you 'I don't know, I've 38:42 never given it much thought until now but I am frightened. 38:46 And then you can say 'Why are you frightened?' 38:48 They may say 'Well I just don't know what's going to happen 38:51 to me after I die'. This is an open door. 38:53 Isn't that a beautiful opportunity to say 'Oh but the 38:57 Bible tells us what's going to happen to us when we die.' 39:00 And so that opens the way for you to share with that person. 39:04 And what you are going to find is that most people, at the time 39:07 of their death are open, they really are. 39:11 They may not know everything, they may have known very little 39:14 in their life but it is amazing how God draws particularly 39:18 near to those who are dying. It is very obvious to me. 39:21 I remember, as I was working as a nurse before I was a pastor 39:26 I was taking care of a person in the hospital who had 39:30 contracted HIV and was dying and was a bilateral amputee 39:34 and was blind. And it was just when this was coming up and 39:38 and in terms of hospital work and many of the nurses and 39:42 different things were afraid of that. And frankly I was somewhat 39:45 frightened as well, and I was in there talking to Jerome that 39:49 day, and as I was talking to him , I said something, I said 39:52 'I don't know if I should ask you this or not but what's your 39:56 relationship with God?' And he began to cry and said ' God 39:59 would never ever love me.' And he told me everything he did 40:02 wrong. And I was able to share with him that God did love him 40:06 and he came to know the Lord. 40:09 Beautiful. Praise God. 40:10 Two days before he died. So the Lord opened up a way. 40:13 Oh absolutely. And especially if you are showing caring. 40:16 You know my friends there's nothing more precious than 40:19 connecting with another human being. The Bible tells us not 40:23 to turn from our own flesh. And you know the touch of a hand 40:27 is so important, your touch is so important. Sometimes we 40:31 withdraw from people, we don't know how to act, but believe 40:36 me the same needs you have others have too. And people just 40:39 want to know in the midst of their dying and the midst of 40:42 their suffering that someone really cares for them. And so 40:46 that touch is really important, and just touching someone while 40:49 you talk to them is really important to help them to open 40:53 up. Because they feel like it's a safe place and we need to 40:56 create safe places. That's what you did that day for Jerome. 41:00 Coming up next we'll take some questions from our live 41:04 audience so please stay with us. 41:10 Are you grieving the loss of a loved one? Do you find yourself 41:13 struggling to understand God and your sorrow? What about 41:16 your children, how do you help them? We have just the books 41:19 for you. Call or write today to receive your free gift of 41:22 'The Ultimate Survivor' and 'Helping Kids Deal with Death.' 41:25 Just write to us at Up Close: PO Box 220, West Frankfort 41:28 Illinois 62896 or call us during regular business hours. 41:37 Ask for Up Close Offer Number One. 41:39 Next week on Up Close. 41:41 We'll center on one of the most pervasive problems of our 41:46 generation: drug addiction. There is great hope for recovery 41:51 as Amanda is a testimony to. 41:54 When I met Amanda it was during the time that she was pregnant 41:56 and Dave was just getting out of prison and those kind of things 41:59 so I worked with addicts and the only thing I know for sure 42:02 about God and about recovery is that God does amazing things 42:06 with us. 42:07 I didn't realize that slowly I was being dragged into this 42:10 world that was going to take me seven years to get out of. 42:14 Next week on Up Close: Escaping Drugs and Alcohol Addictions. 42:18 Don't miss it. 42:25 Welcome back to Up Close. We are talking today about death and 42:29 dying and the different stages of grieving. And now we're 42:32 to take some questions from our audience. Glad today to be able 42:37 to take a few questions Marti. Are you ready? 42:38 Sure. 42:39 What's our first question? What's your name and what's 42:41 your question? 42:43 My name is Kevin and the question is: 'In your 42:46 experience have you seen it to be any easier for someone 42:51 dealing with a death or the grieving process when they've 42:56 been able to see the death coming versus a sudden 42:59 unexpected death?' 43:01 Definitely. The longer you have to prepare the more helpful 43:05 it is. It does not mean that there are not individuals who 43:09 stay in denial right up until of the death and therefore go 43:13 through a shock type experience. But it is always something 43:17 that in the back their mind they have been dealing with and so 43:21 they much more readily adjust to the reality than a person who 43:25 like Mike endured a very sudden announcement of a death. 43:30 And certainly with a daughter, as he stated so well, you don't 43:33 expect your children to go before you. So yes, definitely, 43:36 it's much more difficult. 43:38 Thank you for the question, excellent question. 43:40 We have another question. 43:41 Can you give us your name and then the question? 43:43 My name is Kimberly and I was wondering how do you reach out 43:47 to an atheist who is dying? 43:49 Very good question honey. And it's not easy. 43:54 I'm going to make a statement here, I hope you can understand 43:58 it and I hope everyone else does too. We can't force anyone 44:01 to believe anything they don't want to, isn't that true? 44:04 But we can certainly give them the opportunity to hear God 's 44:08 word and to make a decision for Him if at all possible. 44:11 So what I would say to that person first is how much I care 44:14 for them. You know, no matter how they feel about God, 44:18 how much I care for them. And then I would let them know 44:22 because I care so much for you it matters to me that you're 44:26 still in a place where you don't want to talk about God for 44:29 instance. But when you're ready I just want you to know that 44:33 I'm here. Because I love God and I know He loves you. 44:36 And He's the one who put the love in my heart that I have for 44:40 for you. So when you're ready to talk to me, please talk to 44:43 me about God, I would love to share that with you. 44:46 And then you have to allow them the decision whether or not 44:49 they want to talk about that. 44:51 I think we should ask Mike about that a little bit about that 44:54 too because you were basically an atheist, isn't that right? 44:58 I knew God, I just didn't want to say there wasn't one in case 45:03 I met him one day. 45:06 Ok, so you were kind of right there. 45:09 I was there. I didn't know Jesus but I didn't want to say that 45:12 there wasn't one in case I met him. 45:14 But I tell you what, for me it was friends who were 45:20 Christians that came up and just sat down, just like Marti said, 45:26 and they put their hand on my shoulder or my knee and they 45:30 just sat there with me and if I wanted to say something they 45:34 just listened and they never offered a feedback until 45:38 I asked it. 45:39 Yeah. That's very important. 45:42 So that silent presence. Thank you. 45:47 So we have another question. Katherine, I already know your 45:51 name Katherine McGrath. What is your question? 45:53 My question is: when someone dies, as a close loved one, 45:57 sometimes that person becomes withdrawn and isolated because 46:01 of the grief that they are going through. 46:03 How can you help that person without being pushy or 46:06 intrusive into their lives? 46:08 Just to kind of draw them out, is that what you are saying? 46:11 Ok. You know, it's not easy, you know, sometimes we have to 46:15 wait a little bit. The truth is you have to give them their 46:18 space too. They are allowed that. 46:20 There's nothing wrong with withdrawing for a time. You 46:24 just really have to make sure when you make an overture to 46:28 draw someone out. That you're not making them feel like 'Oh 46:31 great now I'm having distress because now she wants to make 46:34 me talk. ' Rather it needs to be something very casual something 46:38 like saying your friends name or whoever it is, 'Sally' you 46:41 might say, " Sally I came over to spend some time with you 46:44 because I know you are going to through these difficult times, 46:47 so just know I'm here, I'm going to make a batch of cookies and 46:50 if you want to come in and have some we can talk a little bit 46:53 too, whatever you feel like. ' 46:54 So you've just announced that you're available to her, 46:57 do you see? 46:58 But you are not pushing her, trying to make her uncomfortable 47:01 'Now Sally you need to talk to me, you haven't been talking 47:04 lately. ' What's that going to do? 47:06 Sally is going to withdraw even more, isn't that true? 47:08 Because nobody likes to be pushed into anything. 47:11 So just make sure that you let somebody know that you're 47:14 available. Love them, give them a hug, she'll escape but accept 47:17 that from you. And make sure that you give her time, because 47:21 everybody's different. What takes maybe a short time for you 47:24 may take a long time for Marti. And that's not to say that 47:27 that's bad. You know, some people like to get through grief 47:31 really fast, like on a fast forward, and you know they're on 47:34 speed, you know, let me figure out how to do this. 47:37 And I think there's even times when you need to go to 47:39 a counselor. If your grief is extended to the point where you 47:43 are not eating, when maybe in essence you are being hurtful 47:47 to people around you, however it may display itself in a 47:50 negative way. God has given that knowledge with a reason and 47:53 that's good. But just remember, that of all the things that 47:57 are going to heal us, our relationships are. And that's 48:00 the most important thing you offer your friend. So just keep 48:03 coming around even when she's quiet. Be there and let her 48:06 know you are there for her. 48:07 Mike, do you have anything to add from a man's perspective? 48:12 I think the main thing is to be there because what we found 48:17 found in our life is that in a couple of weeks it's over for 48:22 everybody else, but it's not over for you. 48:26 And our true friends have been there. 48:30 That's how you can be a real friend. It's to be there after 48:35 the first couple of weeks. 48:36 After the first couple of weeks. Thank you for that. 48:39 Thank you. 48:40 We have another question. What's you name and what's your 48:42 question? 48:44 My name is Sylvia and I was wondering how you helped 48:48 children get through the grief process when they have 48:52 experienced the long term illness and death of a sibling? 48:56 Of a sibling. Oh that's really good. 48:59 In fact I had an experience. I'm glad you asked me that. 49:03 I just thought about it even as you asked it. Very near 49:06 and dear to my heart. Because of a little patient that I was 49:09 called to minister to because of the need for a Spanish minister. 49:14 And this little patient was dying from a brain tumor. 49:19 And he had a brother who was there with him. 49:23 And it was the most beautiful thing because they were so 49:26 close and it was just cute to watch them. And one of the 49:30 things that we did with them was we allowed the sibling to paint 49:35 with the dying brother a beautiful pillow case. 49:40 And they painted one for each of them because they liked to sleep 49:45 together. And the idea being that we told the sibling, when 49:49 your brother finally goes to sleep and he's resting, and just 49:54 finally dies, because you just have to use that word. 49:57 They need to know the difference or else they think they can 49:59 just go there and say 'Wake up and play with me. " but finally 50:03 dies, you're going to have both pillows to sleep with, so that 50:06 you'll never forget your brother. 50:08 So sometimes an activity like that with young children that 50:13 helps them connect with the memory of that person even 50:16 before they die, so when they do they have something to hold 50:20 on to, that reminds them of a wonderful memory, a wonderful 50:25 time. We gave them little nuts, little peanuts that they ate 50:30 while they were drawing this and the joy and the interaction 50:35 between them was so beautiful. 50:36 And then the mother brought a picture to us of the two 50:40 of them sleeping on the pillow cases. 50:42 And when he was gone, the mother said that was the greatest 50:46 comfort to him, and he just kept holding on to that pillow 50:50 because to him that was like holding on to his little 50:52 brother. So those are things that are helpful. 50:55 And be creative, God you know, He's a creative God and in 50:59 times of loss, He's going to help us to figure out what 51:02 things we can do individually for that child that will help 51:05 them. Thank you. 51:08 Ok. Can you give us your name and your question please? 51:12 Larry. I'm an ex veteran, you know, of a past war and I was 51:21 wondering even myself I sometimes feel guilty of a 51:27 comrade getting killed and a lot of my friends, you know, felt 51:33 the same way. How do you deal with this problem? 51:36 With the guilt problem, is that what you're talking about? 51:40 I can see that that's a very personal pain that you have. 51:44 And you know, I will tell you this my friend, that if your 51:48 your comrade were back and could talk to you, they wouldn't 51:52 hold you guilty. Guilt is something we take on 51:56 ourselves. 51:57 Yeah. Sometimes we feel why not us? You know. 52:01 Yeah. We hold on to it and you know, 52:02 one of the things that the Lord came to take from us is our 52:07 guilt, all of us. 52:08 How many of us are not guilty of so many things and you know, 52:12 sometimes with you is such a visible thing, the death of a 52:16 comrade in wartime for instance is such a visible thing and you 52:21 never forget it, it's pressed in your mind. 52:23 But how many times in life we haven't done things that have 52:27 caused injury to others. Sometimes spiritual death, we 52:31 could say. But the Lord came to set us free from all that. 52:35 And do you know that when we turn that over to the Lord, 52:38 when we genuinely turn it over to Him, His healing is perfect 52:42 in us, and your friend would want that for you because I know 52:46 in any moment, in fact I've said to people, I've said 'Isn't it 52:50 interesting how when someone dies we're feeling guilty, 52:53 maybe we didn't do something, even if we didn't have a part in 52:56 the fact that maybe we thought that we didn't cover them 52:59 enough or we didn't help them enough, whatever the issues 53:02 maybe. That friend would be the first one to say ' No buddy 53:04 I didn't feel that way about you that could happen to anybody. ' 53:07 Guess what? We're human. 53:08 We have limitations but the Lord came to set you free. And you 53:12 need to be free. The most precious thing you gave your 53:15 friend was you love and affection, not your perfection. 53:19 Only the Lord has that. And some day we'll all be perfected. 53:22 And he will too. God bless you and let go. 53:26 If you need extra help with that because you may, you may need 53:30 to process, I do recommend that you seek a professional 53:33 councilor who can help you with that. And God will too. 53:36 Prayerfully use the word of God, his scripture, friends, 53:40 relationships, but seek out what you need. 53:42 God for a purpose has those professionals there to 53:45 help you. 53:46 But God bless you. God bless you. 53:49 Thank you for the question, and thank all of you for the 53:52 questions that you have shared today, the very personal 53:55 questions. And Marti as we close out you have some closing 53:58 thoughts for us? 53:59 Sure. First of all I just want to say how intimately we each 54:05 have been touched by this topic, haven't we? 54:08 There isn't one of us in this room, I'm sure I can say that 54:10 safely. And in my own life, in my own way, with my own 54:15 tragedies and my own losses, having lost a baby and then 54:19 almost having lost the son of promises, I called him, at age 54:22 nine from an automobile accident , our son was on was on life 54:25 support and not expected to live. 54:27 I can tell you my friends that this world is not a place where 54:31 we are going to be free of pain and sorrow. Would you agree? 54:35 It's not a place; and we need to remember these things come 54:39 on all people, this is not something unique to any one 54:43 person. We all suffer loss and we suffer grief. 54:46 And so how beautiful it is to know that God has promised not 54:51 that these people won't have problems. 54:52 Psalm 34 tells us 'Many are the difficulties of the righteous. ' 54:56 Did it say a few? No, 'Many are the difficulties of the 55:01 righteous. ' The only difference is that God helps them through 55:04 each one of them. And I have accepted that in my life that 55:08 the Lord has intended and sometimes permitted things in my 55:11 life, for my good. 55:13 And my ministry has been strengthened through those 55:16 experiences. 55:17 And that God wants us to become stronger people through them, 55:20 not weaker. 55:21 And to say I know who can help you, I know where my hope lies. 55:25 And some day, you know, this dying, we're so fearful of it 55:28 and yet and in fact all of us are dying, isn't that true? 55:31 All of us are dying. 55:33 We like garments are wearing away. 55:35 But the Lord has promised a day, a beautiful day when the dead 55:39 Christ will arise for us. 55:41 When we'll be caught up together with him in the clouds and 55:44 when we will always be with the Lord. 55:46 And He asks us to comfort ourselves with these words. 55:49 They are in Thessalonians. 55:50 Those are beautiful verses. 55:52 And I always say 'Father help me to hold on to the hope. ' 55:56 'Help me inspire hope in people's lives. ' 55:58 Help me to relationship with them and walk with them so that, 56:02 I don't turn from my own flesh, so that I'm available to each 56:05 one, and give them an opportunity to know that they 56:08 can come to me. 56:09 That I can create those environments for the Holy Spirit 56:12 so that they are open to his healing. 56:14 And God will bless us because God needs people today who 56:18 will say neither life nor death nor anything will be able to 56:23 separate me from the love that I have in Jesus. 56:26 Amen! 56:27 We want to thank our guests today: Mike McKinnon, 56:31 Debbie Edgerton and Marti Jones for sharing with us. 56:35 You know, I as a host get to have the final thoughts. 56:40 And as I thought about what I could share, I went back to 56:44 to that testimony that we heard earlier of Brent and his 56:48 final words. 56:49 And throughout Scripture there are many different stories 56:53 about people's final words and how meaningful they can be. 56:58 Think of Paul as he was there with the people in Ephesus in 57:03 Acts 20 and he shared his final words and they cried together 57:08 but they had had a wonderful time together. 57:11 And I think in First John where he ends that last book and he 57:16 says "Little children keep yourselves from idols" his 57:20 final words, terms of endearment. 57:23 And then I think of our Lord's last words that he's coming 57:27 again soon and that he wants us to be faithful. 57:31 So I don't know what your final words, or what the words 57:35 you've said today are to those around you but think about 57:39 them as being your final words and if you do that every day 57:43 you'll be prepared. 57:44 You'll be prepared for whatever life brings. 57:49 Thanks for being with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17