Hello and welcome to
another edition of Up Close.
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We are coming to you from
the 'Three Angels' Seventh Day
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Adventist church in Wichita
Kansas, where we have a live
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audience participating with us.
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We are happy that you
are able to join us too.
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Today we are going to
be talking about a subject
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that we often don't want
to think about, yet one that
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we can't get around.
Experiencing the death of a
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of a loved one is something
we all had to face sooner or all
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will have to face sooner
or later and many of us have
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already dealt with it. We
have some very special guests
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with us today, in fact two
families who had gone through
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the tragedy of
losing a loved one.
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And we also have a
chaplain from one of the largest
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hospitals in the country, and
we're going to be talking about
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how we can cope with the pain
and loss and also how we can
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help others get through it.
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Our first guest today will be
Mike McKinnon from Tampa Florida
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Mike has been a
biker for most of his life.
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He lived a lifestyle
that was not the healthiest.
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He became addicted to drugs
and alcohol and after hitting
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bottom, he got clean and sober
through a twelve step program
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about sixteen years ago. And
his life changed drastically but
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although he believed in God
and his wife and daughter had
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started attending the Seventh
Day Adventist Church, Mike
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wasn't interested at all.
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He especially he didn't want to
hear anything about Jesus Christ
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But all that changed and Mike's
here to tell us what happened.
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Things were going pretty well
for Mike and his family but one
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night tragedy struck. His
daughter Autumn was engaged to
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a young man named Jason and one
night they called and said they
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were coming over but they
never showed up. And here's what
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happened next.
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We must have gone to bed
sometime late that night.
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Early that morning Doreen got
up early and she was trying to
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still call and she didn't hear.
And then our friend who lived
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right across the street
from Autumn called and asked why
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there were some police
cars over at Autumn's house.
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Of course Doreen got kind
of hysterical and tried to call
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her cell phone again and
the highway patrol answered.
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And right then Doreen
knew something was wrong.
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And they said they don't
know me over the phone but there
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there had been an accident at
about three in the morning and
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they had been trying to
get in touch with somebody,
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that she and Jason had
been killed in a car accident.
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It's strange how in that
split second your whole life can
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change.
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Isn't that true? In just
one split second your life
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can change. Many people became
or become, should I say, very
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angry with God when they lose
a loved one. Some feel that God
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should have prevented their
death. And others feel like God
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has taken a loved one from
this Earth. Here's how Mike
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reacted to his loss.
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I was very.... Right from
the start I was angry with God.
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See... Autumn had been that...
she had been such a good kid.
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A pastor comes and I'm meeting
for the first time a young
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pastor, 25-26 years old, full
of energy. You know he...I thank
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God so much today that he didn't
come in and tell me that it
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would be ok, that he had an
answer because the first thing
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he told us that he didn't have
any answer for what happened.
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He didn't understand
it any more than we did.
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That was a wise young pastor
to just know that probably just
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to be there was the
most important thing.
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We're glad today that
Mike McKinnon is with us.
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We want to welcome
him to the program today.
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Mike thank you so
much for being here.
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Thank you for being willing
to share such things that are
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that are close to your heart.
So this loss, like you said
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just in a split second things
can change. You would never have
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thought that when that
baby was born, would you?
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No you, you never think about
your children dying before you.
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You know as time goes on you
think your parents are getting
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older; you see it
coming so you kind of prepare.
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But you never, never
prepare for your child.
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Just out of complete
loss when it happened...
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I didn't have
any... I'm thankful...
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Eleven years of her
life she only knew one thing:
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me drinking, riding
motorcycles and drugs.
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But the Lord helped me for the
last eleven years of her life,
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she saw a different
side. And that was a blessing.
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Even though I didn't know
Jesus, didn't want to know Him,
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Dear God I
thought that was enough.
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You know you were talking
before the program about having
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to make the arrangements for
the burial and what where some
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of the hardest things
that you had to deal with.
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Oh! You go to the funeral
home, and you have to pick out
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casket, you have to decide
where they are going to be
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buried and this is the morning
after and you're just in total
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shock. We looked around, we
found this place that when we
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saw it we knew. She loved
cows. Her whole house had...
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She had the walls
painted like a big brown cow.
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And the floors were black and
white and we saw this place that
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had cows right behind it. And
there were some cows up at the
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fence so that was
something the Lord did for us,
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gave her a place to be.
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It must have been
hard picking that site.
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Although Mike coped as best as
he knew how, he could not let go
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of his anger against God.
At the same time his wife and
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daughter started finding more
and more support in the church
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and were
studying to be baptized.
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Mike, tell us about that.
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This young pastor, Pastor Andrew
Moreno was our youth pastor at
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our church and he was coming
over after the accident and
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my wife told me she wanted to
wait for me to be baptized but
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she said she
couldn't wait any longer.
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And so he started coming over
and I got to know him a little
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bit. Joked around with him, he'd
laugh, I'd laugh, they would go
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into the dining room to do their
lesson and I'd be sitting in the
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other room and I'd be cracking
jokes at them as they were going
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through but I was listening too.
And I was so angry. I just ...
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Why would God do
this to a good kid?
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You read in the paper that there
are so many out there who are
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doing things that they
shouldn't be doing. But I heard
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and I started listening
and somewhere along the way
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I decided that I needed that.
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So you started to join
in on the Bible studies.
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No, not exactly I just listened
and I started going to church
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a little bit with them and going
to the dinners on Saturday,
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afterwards.
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I love that.
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Thanks. Started participating
with the clean up a little bit
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and then I told Andrew that
I wanted to be baptized with my
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family.
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Before that happened, you said
that your anger continued to
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grow.
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Mike knew he needed to let go of
it but he just didn't know how.
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So he asked his friends what
he's to do and their answer was
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was pretty unusual. What did
they say when you talked to your
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friends?
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Well I got into a twelve step
program and I still participate
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even today and it's a
good thing to stay involved.
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And I was sharing about how
angry I was with God and they
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said 'Well what do we do when
we are angry at somebody else?
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We pray for them, pray
for them to have a good day. '
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And I said 'Well I could do
that.' And I prayed for God to
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have a good
day. And that helped.
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Before long I was listening
more to the Bible studies.
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A miracle happened in Mike's
life as he continued to pray.
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Here's what he had to say.
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Somewhere along the line I quit
asking God why, and asked the
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next question I was asking him.
What can I do so that one day
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maybe I could see her again?
And then I started finding out
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from the Bible about Jesus and
the love that He brought to us.
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And how He freely gave it to us
and He didn't want anything in
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in exchange. The only thing He
asked us to do to tell somebody
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about Him. That was
such an easy thing to do.
00:10:01.96\00:10:07.57
But you know what I found
that more people were seeing it
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because I wasn't doing the same
things that I'd done for years.
00:10:12.31\00:10:17.72
I could always be abusive to
people. But I wasn't abusive.
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I had to live up to this. I
thought I was a biker for years.
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Today I just want to be a
Christian. I want to be a better
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one than I was yesterday.
That's one of my prayers.
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Help me to be a better Christian
today than I was yesterday.
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Because yesterday I wasn't
as good, I hope I'll be better
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tomorrow.
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That's a wonderful prayer. Has
He answered that prayer for you?
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Many times over. My
life has changed drastically.
00:11:01.93\00:11:08.27
I'm involved with men's ministry
at our church. We have breakfast
00:11:08.31\00:11:15.98
every Sunday morning.
I give them myself today.
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Instead of taking, it's what
I can give today. You know my
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question for a long time
was 'What could God do for me?'
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Today it's what
can I do for God?
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Amen. That's wonderful.
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You know, there's that song that
says that every day with Jesus
00:11:39.64\00:11:43.16
is sweeter than before and that
sounds like what you are saying.
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That's what I find. Every day
when I read my lesson or just
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read something in the Bible,
it comes across how much more
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precious life is. And
what Jesus did for us by coming
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and walking in my shoes; I'll
never be able to fill the shoes
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that he walked in, then maybe
I can just walk beside him.
00:12:06.68\00:12:11.49
Yeah. Thank you so much
Mike for sharing your story.
00:12:11.52\00:12:15.36
Our next guest is a chaplain
00:12:16.01\00:12:17.66
from one of the
largest hospitals
00:12:17.92\00:12:19.02
in the country and she deals
with thousands of patients and
00:12:19.21\00:12:22.33
their families each year
who face serious disease and
00:12:22.36\00:12:25.54
terminal illnesses. So don't
go away. We'll be right back
00:12:25.57\00:12:29.59
to talk to this chaplain.
00:12:29.62\00:12:30.59
Next week on Up Close.
00:12:32.17\00:12:34.40
We'll center on one of the
most pervasive problems of our
00:12:34.63\00:12:38.45
generation: drug addiction.
00:12:38.48\00:12:40.65
There is great hope for recovery
as Amanda is a testimony to.
00:12:40.69\00:12:45.07
When I met Amanda it was during
the time that she was pregnant
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and Dave was just getting out of
prison and those kind of things.
00:12:48.63\00:12:52.08
So I worked with addicts and
the only thing I know for sure
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about God and about recovery
is that God does amazing things
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with us.
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I didn't realize that slowly
I was being dragged into this
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world that was going to take
me seven years to get out of.
00:13:03.44\00:13:07.36
Next week on Up Close: Escaping
Drugs and Alcohol Addictions.
00:13:07.40\00:13:11.29
Don't miss it.
00:13:11.32\00:13:12.51
Welcome back to Up Close. We've
just heard from Mike McKinnon
00:13:19.75\00:13:23.44
who shared his story about the
loss of his daughter and how he
00:13:23.47\00:13:26.77
he struggled with being angry
with God and we want to find out
00:13:26.81\00:13:30.10
more about the
process of grieving.
00:13:30.13\00:13:32.05
Our next guest Marti Jones the
chaplain for Florida Hospital,
00:13:32.09\00:13:37.09
or one of the chaplains in
Orlando, one of the largest
00:13:37.12\00:13:40.43
hospitals in the country. As
a matter of fact it's one of the
00:13:40.53\00:13:45.32
largest in the nation
around the world they say.
00:13:45.35\00:13:48.59
It's a huge complex. So we're
glad that you're here Marti
00:13:48.63\00:13:52.54
and we would just
like to welcome you.
00:13:52.57\00:13:53.91
Let's welcome Marti.
00:13:53.94\00:13:54.91
Thank you. It's so
good to be here too.
00:13:54.92\00:13:56.75
Well you know Mike told us about
his loss. You were listening in
00:14:00.37\00:14:05.35
in on that. And how in a split
second everything changed and
00:14:05.38\00:14:11.12
and how there was you know, just
a complete change in his life.
00:14:11.16\00:14:16.72
Is it common for people to go
through this kind of experience,
00:14:16.75\00:14:21.61
this kind of stages, if you
will , of being angry with God?
00:14:21.65\00:14:26.16
Absolutely. In fact what he
was displaying was very normal,
00:14:26.20\00:14:30.64
very human. We go through stages
of you know the initial, we can
00:14:30.68\00:14:36.06
say, shock, numbness. Then we
can even go through a stage of
00:14:36.09\00:14:41.11
denial or we just can't believe
it's true. Then of course the
00:14:41.15\00:14:46.01
the stage that Mike mentioned
which was anger. There's a stage
00:14:46.04\00:14:50.73
where we bargain. And of course
finally there's a stage what we
00:14:50.76\00:14:55.42
call acceptance, acceptance
of something we can't change.
00:14:55.45\00:14:58.94
So what he felt was very,
very normal and very common and
00:15:00.02\00:15:04.69
something that I believe, is
a good process to go through.
00:15:04.72\00:15:08.90
So when someone comes to you
and they're just angry, they're
00:15:08.93\00:15:12.37
just bitter about what happened,
what do you do to help someone
00:15:12.40\00:15:15.81
like that?
00:15:15.84\00:15:16.81
Well you listen. It's just
amazing what listening will do.
00:15:16.82\00:15:20.38
You know, Mike mentioned, for
instance, that this young pastor
00:15:20.42\00:15:24.12
didn't come in with any pet
answers and explained to him
00:15:24.15\00:15:28.19
what he was feeling. Because
the pastor had no clue what Mike
00:15:28.22\00:15:32.22
was feeling or his family. And
so he was very wise in saying
00:15:32.25\00:15:36.06
up front 'I don't have any
answers.' And because he lent
00:15:36.09\00:15:39.48
friendship and continued
to come and just listen and be
00:15:39.52\00:15:42.84
available. That was really what
Mike needed and his family more
00:15:42.88\00:15:46.53
than anything.
00:15:46.56\00:15:47.53
What if someone's
angry for a number of years,
00:15:47.54\00:15:49.62
is that different?
00:15:49.65\00:15:51.35
Sure. Anything that hangs on
you so that in essence begins to
00:15:51.39\00:15:56.01
hurt you. You know how that
is don't you? You hold on to
00:15:56.04\00:15:59.38
resentment and anger and pretty
soon, whoever you're angry at,
00:15:59.42\00:16:03.33
they're not being affected
but guess who is? You are. Your
00:16:03.36\00:16:07.08
health, your state of being,
other relationships are being
00:16:07.12\00:16:10.77
affected by your anger, so that
would not be a healthy response
00:16:10.81\00:16:14.57
for long term.
00:16:14.60\00:16:15.81
Coming up next we're going to
hear from a lady who found out
00:16:15.85\00:16:20.17
that her husband was terminally
ill with cancer, and how she
00:16:20.21\00:16:23.96
and her three children coped
with the death of their father.
00:16:24.00\00:16:27.72
So don't go away,
we'll be right back.
00:16:28.72\00:16:30.16
Are you grieving the loss of a
loved one? Do you find yourself
00:16:32.92\00:16:36.08
struggling to understand God
and your sorrow? What about your
00:16:36.11\00:16:39.44
children, how do you help them?
We have just the books for you.
00:16:39.47\00:16:42.77
Call or write today to
receive your free gift of the
00:16:42.80\00:16:45.06
'The Ultimate Survivor' and
'Helping kids Deal with Death.'
00:16:45.10\00:16:48.06
Just write to us at Up
Close: PO Box 220, West
00:16:48.09\00:16:51.22
Frankfort, Illinois 62896 or
call us during regular business
00:16:51.26\00:16:55.01
hours. Ask for Up
Close Offer Number One.
00:16:55.04\00:17:02.38
Welcome back to Up Close. We're
talking today about how to cope
00:17:09.31\00:17:13.50
with illness or the death of a
loved one. And next we're going
00:17:13.53\00:17:17.69
to hear from Debbie
Edgerton from Orlando, Florida.
00:17:17.72\00:17:21.16
Debbie and her husband Brent had
already been through a lot in
00:17:21.20\00:17:24.78
their life with miscarriages
serious illnesses and finally
00:17:24.82\00:17:28.37
the loss of a job. Then God led
them to Hinsdale Illinois and it
00:17:28.40\00:17:33.41
seemed that their
dreams were coming true.
00:17:33.44\00:17:35.35
Brent had a new job and they
had a new home and they thought
00:17:35.38\00:17:39.23
could finally put
their tragedies behind them.
00:17:39.26\00:17:41.52
But things can change very
quickly as they soon found out.
00:17:41.56\00:17:45.37
Brent had got a small tumor
removed a few years earlier and
00:17:45.40\00:17:48.60
when they went back to the
hospital for a check up, they
00:17:48.63\00:17:51.80
weren't ready
for what they found.
00:17:51.83\00:17:53.51
Listen to what
Debbie shared with us.
00:17:53.55\00:17:55.20
And sure enough the next day
they did the MRI and they said
00:17:55.70\00:17:59.21
the tumor is back, it's twice
as big as it was before and
00:17:59.25\00:18:02.89
then they walked out of the
room and we were left there.
00:18:02.92\00:18:06.53
And we cried.
00:18:12.65\00:18:14.34
And we said this is going to
be bad. But maybe there's hope.
00:18:15.99\00:18:21.29
And we prayed and we got on the
phone and we called his family.
00:18:21.68\00:18:26.47
And his two brothers and his
sister, and his mom and dad were
00:18:33.80\00:18:39.94
all in Illinois within 48 hours.
00:18:39.97\00:18:43.05
We had to tell the children that
daddy's tumor was back and our
00:18:44.72\00:18:51.03
oldest son cried and he was
still sad and he was old enough
00:18:51.06\00:18:55.91
to grasp that. He said 'Mummy
people with cancer die. When
00:18:55.94\00:19:00.76
will daddy die?'
00:19:00.79\00:19:01.83
Wow. I guess Debbie was a friend
of yours there in Orlando before
00:19:03.29\00:19:07.12
she moved and after she moved
to Hinsdale, is that right?
00:19:07.15\00:19:10.40
Actually Debbie and I met
just this last year during the
00:19:10.44\00:19:13.64
holiday. Interesting enough God
brought us together on a chance
00:19:13.68\00:19:17.93
meeting in a mutual friend's
home for a holiday get-together.
00:19:17.96\00:19:22.44
And that's how we met. She told
me her story and what she had
00:19:22.47\00:19:26.31
gone through. And it was through
that experience that she had
00:19:26.35\00:19:30.16
an opportunity
to share it at 3ABN.
00:19:30.19\00:19:33.20
How do you deal with realities
like this? You know, you see
00:19:33.24\00:19:38.02
thousands of patients a year and
you're with them when they get
00:19:38.06\00:19:41.53
the test results. And you've
probably heard people who have
00:19:41.56\00:19:45.00
gone through this and
this is just one of many.
00:19:45.03\00:19:47.12
But how do you deal with that?
00:19:47.15\00:19:48.95
Well notice her own
words here. They are beautiful.
00:19:49.99\00:19:55.34
Sometimes we skip over feelings.
We miss something when we do
00:19:55.38\00:20:00.97
that. One of the things that we
try to do in ministry is to walk
00:20:01.00\00:20:06.56
the journey with the individual.
Debbie and her husband had small
00:20:06.59\00:20:10.89
children to deal with, they had
to begin to prepare them, to get
00:20:10.92\00:20:15.21
them ready. It wasn't even
as if they could say 'It's just
00:20:15.24\00:20:18.13
just between you and I and
we'll go through this together.'
00:20:18.16\00:20:21.02
Now the children are involved
and they had to find a way to
00:20:21.05\00:20:24.31
to let the children know that
the things are very bad without
00:20:24.35\00:20:27.58
destroying all hope in them.
00:20:27.61\00:20:29.16
That's difficult place to find
yourself. What's really special
00:20:29.20\00:20:33.48
and important is to keep
the link, the connection in the
00:20:33.51\00:20:37.32
family, in other
words the openness.
00:20:37.35\00:20:39.33
Being able to share with your
children and allow them the same
00:20:39.37\00:20:43.11
time that you have had to
accustom themselves to the news.
00:20:43.14\00:20:46.52
Because they go through shock,
they go through the denial,
00:20:46.56\00:20:49.91
they can't believe this is
happening. So a lot of patience
00:20:49.94\00:20:52.69
is needed on the side of
the parents even though they
00:20:52.73\00:20:55.47
themselves are hurting.
00:20:55.50\00:20:56.66
Some of the kids maybe never
have even thought about these
00:20:56.70\00:21:00.26
issues. It's not like most
of the story books out there say
00:21:00.29\00:21:04.17
'And then Spot the dog died.'
I don't think I've ever read
00:21:04.21\00:21:08.08
a book like that.
00:21:08.11\00:21:09.08
No.
00:21:09.09\00:21:10.06
So they are not really dealing
with those kinds of things.
00:21:10.07\00:21:12.56
No. And of course you don't
expect it typically at that age.
00:21:12.60\00:21:15.97
Brent was a young man, it wasn't
as if that was an anticipated
00:21:16.01\00:21:19.64
end to this story. It would have
been much better for them 'And
00:21:19.67\00:21:22.86
they lived happily ever after',
you know, in their new location
00:21:22.90\00:21:26.06
and there new home. But we
know that in this life there are
00:21:26.09\00:21:30.06
going to be illnesses,
there are going to be deaths.
00:21:30.09\00:21:32.64
And so the question remains how
do we as Christians cope with
00:21:32.68\00:21:37.24
these things and help our
children, our family to cope
00:21:37.27\00:21:40.02
with that.
00:21:40.05\00:21:41.02
As things progressed and Debbie
realized that they were not
00:21:41.03\00:21:44.94
able to do anything, her big
question was 'How do I tell the
00:21:44.98\00:21:49.18
the kids?' Listen to
what she said about this.'
00:21:49.21\00:21:51.73
The day before we brought him
home, the day before I told the
00:21:53.10\00:21:57.80
kids that daddy wasn't
going to survive this illness
00:21:58.04\00:22:00.68
I realized I needed a lot
of grace, I realized I was very
00:22:05.70\00:22:09.61
angry and I said I need some
time alone before I deal with
00:22:09.64\00:22:14.05
this. So I had someone take
the kids for me for twenty-four
00:22:14.08\00:22:18.21
hours and his sister and his
parents staid with him in the
00:22:18.25\00:22:22.37
the hospital and I took
twenty-four hours to pray.
00:22:22.40\00:22:25.26
And I said I don't want any
visitors at the house, and I
00:22:25.30\00:22:29.42
just needed some time alone
with God. And I called several
00:22:29.46\00:22:33.29
health care institutions and
I said 'Is there anything we can
00:22:33.32\00:22:38.03
do?' And there's nothing. We'd
sent his records all over the
00:22:38.07\00:22:42.76
the place. And so I cried and
I told God that I wasn't happy
00:22:42.79\00:22:47.45
with this outcome. And
how can I tell my children?
00:22:47.48\00:22:51.35
And the last time when I talked
about it, the most important
00:22:59.36\00:23:03.01
thing for us is that our
children didn't reject Jesus
00:23:03.04\00:23:07.87
because this
prayer wasn't answered.
00:23:07.90\00:23:11.89
And that we had had Brent
anointed early on and with
00:23:14.75\00:23:21.76
anointing there are three
healings. There's the healing of
00:23:21.80\00:23:25.65
the spirit that God always
offers. There's the healing of
00:23:25.69\00:23:29.51
the body miraculously which
hadn't occurred in our case, and
00:23:29.54\00:23:33.79
there's the healing of the
body and spirit over time which
00:23:33.83\00:23:38.03
sometimes medical science can do
and none of that had happened.
00:23:38.07\00:23:41.26
We were left with the answer
that I love you and I healed
00:23:41.29\00:23:45.04
your spirit but you're
going to lose your life.
00:23:45.07\00:23:48.81
Well you can really sense the
pain of having to process those
00:23:50.51\00:23:54.53
things. What to do? And I'm sure
you've been there many times
00:23:54.56\00:23:58.32
too where you're at an anointing
service and the children know
00:23:58.35\00:24:02.52
about that and the expectations
are perhaps raised. How do you
00:24:02.55\00:24:06.69
talk to children when they
are at an anointing service?
00:24:06.72\00:24:10.35
Well of course the main
thing again, Debbie said it so
00:24:11.71\00:24:16.53
beautifully, God always offers
us healing, spiritual healing,
00:24:16.56\00:24:21.41
that's always guaranteed 100%.
00:24:21.44\00:24:23.48
We know all of us who have
who have been touched by death,
00:24:23.52\00:24:27.07
you know, I buried our first son
and so in my ministry that has
00:24:27.11\00:24:32.69
been helpful to me in dealing
with children and with families
00:24:32.73\00:24:38.28
and reminding them that not
everyone is going to be healed
00:24:38.31\00:24:43.75
from physical ailment. In
fact sometimes we judge faith by
00:24:43.78\00:24:49.17
whether or not people are healed
almost assuming that if we have
00:24:49.21\00:24:52.28
enough faith
everybody would be healed.
00:24:52.31\00:24:54.38
Well I happen to
know that's not true.
00:24:54.42\00:24:56.42
I buried my first son, nearly
buried my second and I know that
00:24:56.46\00:25:00.73
there are bad things that happen
in this world and that the main
00:25:00.77\00:25:05.01
thing for me is to get across
to the children that 'Yay,
00:25:05.04\00:25:08.50
though I walk through the valley
and the shadow of death I need
00:25:08.53\00:25:11.59
not fear any evil' because
He's with me. He really is.
00:25:11.62\00:25:14.60
So children can understand that
kind of like mummy and daddy
00:25:14.64\00:25:18.44
being with them when it's dark
and holding their hand and in
00:25:18.47\00:25:21.98
the same way Jesus is with us
even when things get very dark.
00:25:22.02\00:25:25.57
It is very important to keep
talking about it to children.
00:25:25.60\00:25:28.93
Children don't get it just
from the first time. So even
00:25:28.97\00:25:32.27
if they are in an anointing
service I always take the time
00:25:32.30\00:25:35.35
to just hold them to explain
what is happening, what is about
00:25:35.39\00:25:38.83
to happen and that we are asking
for the Holy Spirit to be with
00:25:38.86\00:25:42.27
daddy, to heal him or to
walk with him through this whole
00:25:42.30\00:25:46.12
illness.
00:25:46.15\00:25:47.12
Is it good to have the children
there for that prayer or not?
00:25:47.13\00:25:49.50
I believe that it
is at a certain age.
00:25:49.53\00:25:52.61
Some children are too young
and they wouldn't be able to
00:25:52.65\00:25:55.43
understand and in fact they
become confused by what's going
00:25:55.46\00:25:59.03
on. But at an age when the child
is mature enough to understand
00:25:59.06\00:26:02.68
and you're explaining things and
they want to be a part and you
00:26:02.71\00:26:06.30
can even say 'Would you
like to go and participate?'
00:26:06.33\00:26:08.94
If the child is willing that's
a good experience for them.
00:26:08.98\00:26:12.34
Debbie was anxious about talking
with the children as you can
00:26:12.38\00:26:15.71
tell. As Debbie told the kids,
here is how they responded.
00:26:15.74\00:26:20.53
My ten year old, with the wisdom
of a child, stopped crying
00:26:21.35\00:26:27.40
first and said 'Mommy at
least we had a really good daddy
00:26:27.43\00:26:32.49
while we had one. And
daddy always taught us at
00:26:32.53\00:26:37.52
Sabbath school and daddy wasn't
mean to us, daddy played with us
00:26:37.56\00:26:42.42
and he was always reading and
he would read us our story and
00:26:42.46\00:26:47.32
he would talk to us about God
and he believes in God and he's
00:26:47.36\00:26:51.37
not leaving because he wants
to, he's only leaving because he
00:26:51.41\00:26:56.20
has to. And he said ' I know
lots of my friends whose dads
00:26:56.24\00:27:00.10
are gone because they've chosen
to be gone or because they
00:27:00.14\00:27:03.93
can't be nice people' and he
said 'I'm just really glad we
00:27:03.97\00:27:08.09
had a nice dad, that I can
always hold on to the fact that
00:27:08.12\00:27:12.04
he really loved us. And then
my thirteen year old dried his
00:27:12.07\00:27:15.40
tears and started, they both
started talking about the good
00:27:15.44\00:27:19.67
things that their dad had done
with them. And then my little
00:27:19.70\00:27:23.55
girl started piping up 'Yeah' he
did this and he played with me
00:27:23.58\00:27:27.40
and he used to call me his
little squirrel girl. And so
00:27:27.43\00:27:32.89
what I was fearful would be, had
been unbearable time that maybe
00:27:32.93\00:27:37.53
I'd bitten of more than I could
chew , may be I should have had
00:27:37.56\00:27:42.13
backup help to
explain this to the kids.
00:27:42.16\00:27:44.74
It started turning into a
powerful time of sharing that
00:27:44.78\00:27:49.43
showed me that God was speaking
to these children that He would
00:27:49.47\00:27:53.09
be there for me. Psalm 68:5
says 'I will be father to the
00:27:53.12\00:28:01.03
fatherless and I will be
defender of widows" and I
00:28:01.06\00:28:06.31
could claim that I could see
already that Jesus was helping
00:28:06.34\00:28:09.46
me to parent these children and
He was speaking to them to help
00:28:09.49\00:28:13.43
them get through this
great loss that they would feel.
00:28:13.46\00:28:16.16
Well that's touching isn't it?
Now this brings tears to my eyes
00:28:17.82\00:28:21.18
to have to process that.
00:28:21.21\00:28:23.12
You know she was nervous about
including these children but
00:28:24.16\00:28:28.04
the Lord was speaking to
those children. Do you see that?
00:28:28.08\00:28:32.13
Oh, absolutely. And remember
too that Debbie took twenty-four
00:28:32.17\00:28:35.74
hours. Remember she said she
had a friend take the children
00:28:35.77\00:28:38.75
for those twenty-four hours
she needed time alone to talk
00:28:38.79\00:28:42.74
with God. And my friends, we
need that communion, we need His
00:28:42.78\00:28:46.96
wisdom. We don't have in the
fleshly wisdom the wisdom that
00:28:47.00\00:28:50.99
God has. Doesn't he say:' My
ways are higher than yours even
00:28:51.03\00:28:54.44
even as the heavens are higher
than the earth'? And so here
00:28:54.48\00:28:58.13
the Lord honored that time that
she spent with Him by already
00:28:58.16\00:29:01.78
being that companion she
would need in the days to come.
00:29:01.81\00:29:05.90
How beautiful is the evidence
of that? The children indeed
00:29:05.93\00:29:09.15
were becoming the comfort
to their mother. Beautiful.
00:29:09.18\00:29:11.70
Now Mike I understand from your
story that one of your children
00:29:11.74\00:29:19.03
was killed but you had
one that was remaining.
00:29:19.06\00:29:22.06
Yes.
00:29:22.09\00:29:23.06
And how did it go when you
talked with... Was it Amber that
00:29:23.07\00:29:29.30
was remaining? How did that go?
00:29:29.33\00:29:30.88
She withdrew into a shell and
she was going to a place called
00:29:31.61\00:29:40.21
The Refuge which was a Christian
rock refuge place. But she was
00:29:40.24\00:29:48.81
withdrawn. But since then,
because Autumn and her had just
00:29:48.84\00:29:53.91
finally made friends, seven
years apart in age and they were
00:29:53.95\00:29:59.27
getting to be friends. But since
that time she has come to an
00:29:59.31\00:30:04.60
an understanding.
00:30:04.63\00:30:05.80
And have you talked with her
a lot or her mother did or how
00:30:07.03\00:30:11.21
did that work? How did she
come to that understanding?
00:30:11.24\00:30:13.45
We were always there, open, we
would talk about Autumn, how we
00:30:13.49\00:30:19.51
missed her. She would talk with
us and share about missing her.
00:30:19.55\00:30:25.50
And pastor Andrew gave very good
support, tried to get her, to
00:30:25.53\00:30:31.45
include her in any
activities that were going on.
00:30:31.48\00:30:35.16
How beautiful.
00:30:35.19\00:30:36.16
So it is important to include
children in these discussions
00:30:36.17\00:30:41.38
and letting them know of your
feelings and not trying to be
00:30:41.41\00:30:44.28
the strong person.
00:30:44.31\00:30:45.32
I believe that. I believe also
what Mrs. Marty said that at
00:30:45.36\00:30:49.79
a certain age you have to
include them. When we went to
00:30:49.83\00:30:54.19
the funeral home, she went with
us. We didn't want her to feel
00:30:54.23\00:30:59.04
excluded. She was thirteen. We
wanted her to feel like she was
00:30:59.08\00:31:03.86
part of this. Because she
was. Your children are part of
00:31:03.89\00:31:09.05
what's going on in your life.
00:31:09.08\00:31:10.11
And you know that's very
healthy thing too, that we keep
00:31:10.15\00:31:15.60
the memory of that precious
loved one alive and talk about
00:31:15.63\00:31:20.41
person and express, you know,
these memories the things that
00:31:20.44\00:31:25.19
we enjoyed, the way God
brought us near to each other,
00:31:25.22\00:31:29.27
the relationships and what made
them so beautiful and what made
00:31:29.31\00:31:32.82
us the family so special
together. Sometimes people think
00:31:32.85\00:31:36.40
that's going to bring up the bad
feelings, but really it allows
00:31:36.43\00:31:40.22
people to express their feelings
and that's heal. So expression
00:31:40.25\00:31:44.24
of our feelings is the task that
we need to go through as we're
00:31:44.28\00:31:48.24
grieving for the
loss of a loved one.
00:31:48.27\00:31:49.86
We talked a little bit about
what to do after someone dies.
00:31:49.90\00:31:53.98
But what do you say, Debbie, her
husband was going to die; what
00:31:54.02\00:31:57.71
do you say to somebody who
is facing death. You've probably
00:31:57.75\00:32:01.32
been involved in that many
times. But what should someone
00:32:01.36\00:32:04.90
say to a family member?
00:32:04.93\00:32:06.33
Well I think just number one
validating for them what they
00:32:06.37\00:32:11.11
are feeling at the moment.
For instance if a family member
00:32:11.14\00:32:13.96
comes to me and says 'Chaplain
we've just found out my mum's
00:32:14.00\00:32:16.83
report is positive and we're
going to lose her.' At that
00:32:16.86\00:32:19.71
moment you're not going to
sit there and talk to them long.
00:32:19.74\00:32:22.67
I will usually take and embrace
them, that's the first thing
00:32:22.70\00:32:26.10
that I do. I don't have to say
anything because at that moment
00:32:26.14\00:32:29.56
what that person needs to know
is that someone cares about the
00:32:29.59\00:32:32.63
pain they are going through.
Someone is going to be there
00:32:32.66\00:32:35.86
to walk them through. So, many
times our presence, our very
00:32:35.89\00:32:39.06
presence, not saying anything,
just holding someone's hand,
00:32:39.09\00:32:43.02
reaching over and letting them
know that you're sensing they're
00:32:43.06\00:32:46.83
hurt 'I can see you're hurt
and I'm here for you right now'
00:32:46.87\00:32:50.85
That is so important. Start out
small and don't allow yourself
00:32:50.88\00:32:54.52
to get stuck in the idea that
I have to remedy this for them
00:32:54.55\00:32:58.16
because you can't.
00:32:58.19\00:32:59.16
And after you've done that
is there anything you could,
00:32:59.73\00:33:03.11
should say? What would you say?
00:33:03.14\00:33:04.48
I would say to them, I would
say, just like in Mike's case
00:33:04.52\00:33:07.71
where the pastor kept coming
over regularly on a regular
00:33:07.74\00:33:10.98
interval, and I would say
'How are you doing today? How
00:33:11.01\00:33:14.18
are you dealing today with what
news you received two days ago?
00:33:14.22\00:33:18.40
And let them express to me how
they are and where they are at
00:33:18.43\00:33:21.76
because that's very important.
They may be in anger they may
00:33:21.79\00:33:25.03
be in stages of denial. I need
to know that in order to help
00:33:25.07\00:33:28.28
them.
00:33:28.31\00:33:29.28
So you would say, is it possible
for someone after they've
00:33:29.29\00:33:32.25
processed that, and I know
that's a process. But have you
00:33:32.29\00:33:36.02
seen people come to peace
with the fact that they may die
00:33:36.05\00:33:39.75
very soon?
00:33:39.78\00:33:40.75
Oh yes, absolutely. In fact
peace is where we want to get
00:33:40.76\00:33:44.79
isn't it? Where we want to get
for the person who is ill and
00:33:44.82\00:33:48.76
about to die and for those
who maybe are around them and
00:33:48.80\00:33:52.71
preparing for that. In
Mike's case it was a shock.
00:33:52.74\00:33:55.93
He didn't have time
to prepare for that.
00:33:55.96\00:33:58.17
That was particularly difficult.
00:33:58.20\00:33:59.76
Well we want to look at a
clip now that shows us Debbie's
00:34:00.93\00:34:07.52
husband Brent, his last prayer.
00:34:07.55\00:34:11.29
And I think this
will be very meaningful.
00:34:11.86\00:34:13.45
We were sitting, watching some
show and he said 'Turn the TV
00:34:13.48\00:34:17.77
off, we need to pray'. And I
was very surprised because he
00:34:17.80\00:34:22.08
was very lucid that day. And he
had been kind of in and out for
00:34:22.11\00:34:25.48
a few days. And I said 'Ok.'
And we turned the TV off and we
00:34:25.51\00:34:28.71
came around and his sister and
I, one at each side of the bed.
00:34:28.75\00:34:31.92
And he said 'I'll pray
first and then you pray.'
00:34:31.95\00:34:35.40
I said 'Ok'.'
00:34:35.43\00:34:36.72
And he prayed,
thanking God for all His
00:34:42.15\00:34:46.69
blessings, thanking God for a
wonderful life, for being born
00:34:46.73\00:34:50.79
into a good home and for being
able to create a good home.
00:34:50.82\00:34:54.85
Thanking God for his
children and his wife.
00:34:54.88\00:35:01.20
And he said 'Thank you Jesus
that you'll walk me into your
00:35:01.24\00:35:06.46
arms". And then he prayed
for us, that God would bless us
00:35:06.50\00:35:10.67
and that we would go on to
lives happy, productive lives.
00:35:10.70\00:35:14.69
And he said 'Lord make
all their memories good ones.'
00:35:14.73\00:35:18.65
We prayed that prayer on October
8th and he died on October 9th.
00:35:18.69\00:35:25.22
And it's been a big comfort
for the kids and I to know that
00:35:25.25\00:35:30.11
the day before he died, he
knew he was going to die and his
00:35:30.14\00:35:36.38
focus was on meeting Jesus. And
he wasn't bitter and he wasn't
00:35:36.42\00:35:41.84
angry. He was sorry to lose
the fact that he wouldn't get to
00:35:41.88\00:35:47.70
watch his kids grow up. But
he was at peace with his Savior.
00:35:47.73\00:35:53.52
Wow! Last words are so
important, and you know...
00:35:55.77\00:35:58.68
I tell you, this is touching.
When I saw these clips before
00:35:58.72\00:36:01.70
we were preparing, this
brings tears to your eyes but
00:36:01.73\00:36:04.28
beautiful tears.
00:36:04.31\00:36:05.61
You've seen a lot of people die.
Is it better to die knowing God
00:36:05.65\00:36:12.81
or not knowing God?
00:36:12.84\00:36:14.05
Oh absolutely knowing Him.
In fact, you know, it's very
00:36:14.09\00:36:17.88
interesting Don but I have
never had occasion at someone's
00:36:17.92\00:36:22.28
bedside who is dying who have
said to me 'Oh I had these many
00:36:22.32\00:36:27.14
titles behind my name.' Or 'I
had these many homes.' Or 'I was
00:36:27.18\00:36:31.14
successful because this is what
I acquired in life' Or 'This is
00:36:31.17\00:36:35.10
who I have become.' What
they talk to me about is their
00:36:35.13\00:36:38.76
relationships. Either they
are saying to me 'Oh I wish I'd
00:36:38.80\00:36:43.25
taken more time with my family.'
Sometimes they'll be alone
00:36:43.28\00:36:47.50
completely. The only one who
is there is the chaplain who is
00:36:47.53\00:36:51.60
ministering to that family.
And you know in your heart that
00:36:51.64\00:36:55.68
you are not making up for
the loss of that family. And you
00:36:55.72\00:36:59.44
think for yourself how different
it is for a person who is
00:36:59.48\00:37:03.14
dying who has the family around
him and who knows that love
00:37:03.18\00:37:06.81
and that caring and like Brent
had this sense about thanking
00:37:06.84\00:37:12.40
God, right? Make all your
petitions known to God with
00:37:12.43\00:37:16.34
thanksgiving for what He
had done for him, the beautiful
00:37:16.37\00:37:20.25
family that He had
given him. He had hope.
00:37:20.28\00:37:23.30
And that's the difference
the Lord makes in our life.
00:37:23.33\00:37:26.50
It's that we have hope.
'Yay thought I walk through that
00:37:26.53\00:37:29.78
valley in shadow of death',
I don't need to fear the evil
00:37:29.82\00:37:33.22
because You are with me. That
is a beautiful comfort to those
00:37:33.26\00:37:36.63
who believe.
00:37:36.66\00:37:37.63
You know sometimes we're
nervous to talk to people who
00:37:37.64\00:37:41.01
are facing death or in the
hospital about spiritual things.
00:37:41.05\00:37:45.65
We wonder whether it's
appropriate. Is there a way,
00:37:45.68\00:37:51.92
let's say the person doesn't
have a faith like Brent had.
00:37:51.96\00:37:55.96
I mean that's a beautiful faith.
00:37:56.35\00:37:57.47
Yes.
00:37:57.54\00:37:58.51
But they start to have an
openness. Can you lead them to
00:37:58.54\00:38:01.79
that? What do you say?
I know you listen first.
00:38:01.83\00:38:04.89
Sure. No.
00:38:04.92\00:38:05.89
I know you're sensitive. But
are there things you do to help
00:38:05.90\00:38:09.99
people?
00:38:10.02\00:38:10.99
Sure. And I think one of the
best things to do is, number one
00:38:11.00\00:38:14.89
express first of all your caring
for that person. 'So you've
00:38:14.92\00:38:19.14
been very special to me. I've
come by and visited you now for
00:38:19.17\00:38:23.11
several days and I've met your
family and I've been walking
00:38:23.14\00:38:27.01
this journey with you and I just
need to ask you today; where is
00:38:27.05\00:38:31.72
your relationship with the
Lord? What is going on with you
00:38:31.75\00:38:34.65
spiritually?'
00:38:34.68\00:38:35.69
That opens the door and invites
the person to express what
00:38:35.73\00:38:38.97
their condition is. They may
say to you 'I don't know, I've
00:38:39.00\00:38:42.48
never given it much thought
until now but I am frightened.
00:38:42.52\00:38:45.97
And then you can say
'Why are you frightened?'
00:38:46.00\00:38:48.51
They may say 'Well I just don't
know what's going to happen
00:38:48.55\00:38:51.15
to me after I die'.
This is an open door.
00:38:51.18\00:38:53.72
Isn't that a beautiful
opportunity to say 'Oh but the
00:38:53.76\00:38:56.99
Bible tells us what's going
to happen to us when we die.'
00:38:57.02\00:39:00.50
And so that opens the way for
you to share with that person.
00:39:00.53\00:39:04.22
And what you are going to find
is that most people, at the time
00:39:04.25\00:39:07.91
of their death are
open, they really are.
00:39:07.94\00:39:11.11
They may not know everything,
they may have known very little
00:39:11.15\00:39:14.68
in their life but it is amazing
how God draws particularly
00:39:14.71\00:39:18.28
near to those who are
dying. It is very obvious to me.
00:39:18.31\00:39:21.85
I remember, as I was working
as a nurse before I was a pastor
00:39:21.88\00:39:26.32
I was taking care of a
person in the hospital who had
00:39:26.35\00:39:30.81
contracted HIV and was dying
and was a bilateral amputee
00:39:30.85\00:39:34.67
and was blind. And it was
just when this was coming up and
00:39:34.71\00:39:38.50
and in terms of hospital
work and many of the nurses and
00:39:38.53\00:39:42.02
different things were afraid of
that. And frankly I was somewhat
00:39:42.06\00:39:45.17
frightened as well, and I was
in there talking to Jerome that
00:39:45.20\00:39:49.07
day, and as I was talking to
him , I said something, I said
00:39:49.10\00:39:52.94
'I don't know if I should ask
you this or not but what's your
00:39:52.97\00:39:56.13
relationship with God?' And
he began to cry and said ' God
00:39:56.16\00:39:59.31
would never ever love me.'
And he told me everything he did
00:39:59.65\00:40:02.78
wrong. And I was able to share
with him that God did love him
00:40:02.81\00:40:06.66
and he came to know the Lord.
00:40:06.69\00:40:09.63
Beautiful. Praise God.
00:40:09.66\00:40:10.63
Two days before he died.
So the Lord opened up a way.
00:40:10.64\00:40:13.47
Oh absolutely. And especially
if you are showing caring.
00:40:13.51\00:40:16.68
You know my friends there's
nothing more precious than
00:40:16.72\00:40:19.82
connecting with another human
being. The Bible tells us not
00:40:19.86\00:40:23.43
to turn from our own flesh.
And you know the touch of a hand
00:40:23.46\00:40:27.31
is so important, your touch
is so important. Sometimes we
00:40:27.34\00:40:31.83
withdraw from people, we don't
know how to act, but believe
00:40:31.87\00:40:36.08
me the same needs you have
others have too. And people just
00:40:36.12\00:40:39.37
want to know in the midst
of their dying and the midst of
00:40:39.41\00:40:42.80
their suffering that someone
really cares for them. And so
00:40:42.83\00:40:46.15
that touch is really important,
and just touching someone while
00:40:46.19\00:40:49.43
you talk to them is really
important to help them to open
00:40:49.46\00:40:53.04
up. Because they feel like
it's a safe place and we need to
00:40:53.08\00:40:56.63
create safe places. That's what
you did that day for Jerome.
00:40:56.85\00:40:59.91
Coming up next we'll take
some questions from our live
00:41:00.39\00:41:04.54
audience so please stay with us.
00:41:04.57\00:41:06.44
Are you grieving the loss of a
loved one? Do you find yourself
00:41:10.01\00:41:13.14
struggling to understand
God and your sorrow? What about
00:41:13.17\00:41:16.28
your children, how do you help
them? We have just the books
00:41:16.32\00:41:19.22
for you. Call or write today
to receive your free gift of
00:41:19.26\00:41:22.17
'The Ultimate Survivor' and
'Helping Kids Deal with Death.'
00:41:22.20\00:41:25.42
Just write to us at Up Close:
PO Box 220, West Frankfort
00:41:25.45\00:41:28.95
Illinois 62896 or call us
during regular business hours.
00:41:28.99\00:41:32.46
Ask for Up Close
Offer Number One.
00:41:37.87\00:41:39.48
Next week on Up Close.
00:41:39.51\00:41:41.78
We'll center on one of the
most pervasive problems of our
00:41:41.82\00:41:46.46
generation: drug addiction.
There is great hope for recovery
00:41:46.50\00:41:51.11
as Amanda is a testimony to.
00:41:51.14\00:41:54.15
When I met Amanda it was during
the time that she was pregnant
00:41:54.19\00:41:56.76
and Dave was just getting out of
prison and those kind of things
00:41:56.79\00:41:59.33
so I worked with addicts and
the only thing I know for sure
00:41:59.36\00:42:02.74
about God and about recovery
is that God does amazing things
00:42:02.77\00:42:06.12
with us.
00:42:06.15\00:42:07.12
I didn't realize that slowly
I was being dragged into this
00:42:07.13\00:42:10.65
world that was going to take
me seven years to get out of.
00:42:10.69\00:42:14.55
Next week on Up Close: Escaping
Drugs and Alcohol Addictions.
00:42:14.59\00:42:18.42
Don't miss it.
00:42:18.45\00:42:19.42
Welcome back to Up Close. We are
talking today about death and
00:42:25.50\00:42:29.38
dying and the different stages
of grieving. And now we're
00:42:29.41\00:42:32.52
to take some questions from our
audience. Glad today to be able
00:42:32.56\00:42:37.00
to take a few
questions Marti. Are you ready?
00:42:37.03\00:42:38.87
Sure.
00:42:38.90\00:42:39.87
What's our first question?
What's your name and what's
00:42:39.88\00:42:41.93
your question?
00:42:41.96\00:42:42.93
My name is Kevin and
the question is: 'In your
00:42:42.94\00:42:46.74
experience have you seen it
to be any easier for someone
00:42:46.78\00:42:51.54
dealing with a death or the
grieving process when they've
00:42:51.58\00:42:56.31
been able to see the
death coming versus a sudden
00:42:56.34\00:42:59.55
unexpected death?'
00:42:59.58\00:43:01.19
Definitely. The longer you
have to prepare the more helpful
00:43:01.23\00:43:05.67
it is. It does not mean that
there are not individuals who
00:43:05.71\00:43:09.82
stay in denial right up until
of the death and therefore go
00:43:09.85\00:43:13.94
through a shock type experience.
But it is always something
00:43:13.98\00:43:17.93
that in the back their mind they
have been dealing with and so
00:43:17.97\00:43:21.85
they much more readily adjust
to the reality than a person who
00:43:21.89\00:43:25.74
like Mike endured a very
sudden announcement of a death.
00:43:25.77\00:43:30.06
And certainly with a daughter,
as he stated so well, you don't
00:43:30.10\00:43:33.28
expect your children to go
before you. So yes, definitely,
00:43:33.31\00:43:36.93
it's much more difficult.
00:43:36.96\00:43:37.93
Thank you for the
question, excellent question.
00:43:38.21\00:43:39.74
We have another question.
00:43:40.20\00:43:41.17
Can you give us your
name and then the question?
00:43:41.18\00:43:43.28
My name is Kimberly and I was
wondering how do you reach out
00:43:43.32\00:43:47.42
to an atheist who is dying?
00:43:47.69\00:43:49.24
Very good question
honey. And it's not easy.
00:43:49.91\00:43:54.25
I'm going to make a statement
here, I hope you can understand
00:43:54.28\00:43:58.02
it and I hope everyone else
does too. We can't force anyone
00:43:58.06\00:44:01.22
to believe anything they
don't want to, isn't that true?
00:44:01.25\00:44:04.38
But we can certainly give them
the opportunity to hear God 's
00:44:04.42\00:44:08.73
word and to make a decision
for Him if at all possible.
00:44:08.76\00:44:11.85
So what I would say to that
person first is how much I care
00:44:11.89\00:44:14.95
for them. You know, no
matter how they feel about God,
00:44:14.98\00:44:18.27
how much I care for them.
And then I would let them know
00:44:18.30\00:44:22.22
because I care so much for
you it matters to me that you're
00:44:22.26\00:44:26.17
still in a place where you
don't want to talk about God for
00:44:26.21\00:44:29.90
instance. But when you're ready
I just want you to know that
00:44:29.93\00:44:33.59
I'm here. Because I love
God and I know He loves you.
00:44:33.62\00:44:36.79
And He's the one who put the
love in my heart that I have for
00:44:36.83\00:44:40.32
for you. So when you're ready
to talk to me, please talk to
00:44:40.36\00:44:43.82
me about God, I would
love to share that with you.
00:44:43.85\00:44:46.39
And then you have to allow
them the decision whether or not
00:44:46.43\00:44:49.64
they want to talk about that.
00:44:49.67\00:44:51.31
I think we should ask Mike about
that a little bit about that
00:44:51.35\00:44:54.16
too because you were basically
an atheist, isn't that right?
00:44:54.20\00:44:56.98
I knew God, I just didn't want
to say there wasn't one in case
00:44:58.07\00:45:03.59
I met him one day.
00:45:03.62\00:45:04.73
Ok, so you were
kind of right there.
00:45:06.13\00:45:09.41
I was there. I didn't know Jesus
but I didn't want to say that
00:45:09.45\00:45:12.68
there wasn't one
in case I met him.
00:45:12.71\00:45:14.20
But I tell you what, for
me it was friends who were
00:45:14.24\00:45:20.52
Christians that came up and just
sat down, just like Marti said,
00:45:20.56\00:45:26.45
and they put their hand on
my shoulder or my knee and they
00:45:26.48\00:45:30.40
just sat there with me and if
I wanted to say something they
00:45:30.44\00:45:34.33
just listened and they
never offered a feedback until
00:45:34.36\00:45:38.03
I asked it.
00:45:38.07\00:45:39.04
Yeah. That's very important.
00:45:39.05\00:45:42.63
So that silent
presence. Thank you.
00:45:42.67\00:45:47.37
So we have another question.
Katherine, I already know your
00:45:47.41\00:45:51.42
name Katherine
McGrath. What is your question?
00:45:51.45\00:45:53.89
My question is: when someone
dies, as a close loved one,
00:45:53.93\00:45:57.55
sometimes that person becomes
withdrawn and isolated because
00:45:57.59\00:46:01.54
of the grief that
they are going through.
00:46:01.57\00:46:03.04
How can you help that
person without being pushy or
00:46:03.08\00:46:06.64
intrusive into their lives?
00:46:06.67\00:46:07.74
Just to kind of draw them out,
is that what you are saying?
00:46:08.31\00:46:11.71
Ok. You know, it's not easy,
you know, sometimes we have to
00:46:11.74\00:46:15.11
wait a little bit. The truth
is you have to give them their
00:46:15.14\00:46:18.52
space too. They
are allowed that.
00:46:18.55\00:46:20.74
There's nothing wrong with
withdrawing for a time. You
00:46:20.78\00:46:24.20
just really have to make sure
when you make an overture to
00:46:24.23\00:46:27.97
draw someone out. That you're
not making them feel like 'Oh
00:46:28.01\00:46:31.39
great now I'm having distress
because now she wants to make
00:46:31.43\00:46:34.84
me talk. ' Rather it needs to be
something very casual something
00:46:34.88\00:46:38.03
like saying your friends name
or whoever it is, 'Sally' you
00:46:38.06\00:46:41.29
might say, " Sally I came
over to spend some time with you
00:46:41.33\00:46:44.06
because I know you are going to
through these difficult times,
00:46:44.09\00:46:47.07
so just know I'm here, I'm going
to make a batch of cookies and
00:46:47.10\00:46:50.09
if you want to come in and have
some we can talk a little bit
00:46:50.13\00:46:53.09
too, whatever you feel like. '
00:46:53.12\00:46:54.54
So you've just announced
that you're available to her,
00:46:54.58\00:46:57.29
do you see?
00:46:57.32\00:46:58.29
But you are not pushing her,
trying to make her uncomfortable
00:46:58.30\00:47:01.28
'Now Sally you need to talk
to me, you haven't been talking
00:47:01.31\00:47:04.28
lately. ' What's
that going to do?
00:47:04.31\00:47:06.02
Sally is going to withdraw
even more, isn't that true?
00:47:06.06\00:47:08.50
Because nobody likes to
be pushed into anything.
00:47:08.53\00:47:11.19
So just make sure that you
let somebody know that you're
00:47:11.23\00:47:14.29
available. Love them, give them
a hug, she'll escape but accept
00:47:14.33\00:47:17.96
that from you. And make sure
that you give her time, because
00:47:17.99\00:47:21.32
everybody's different. What
takes maybe a short time for you
00:47:21.36\00:47:24.60
may take a long time for Marti.
And that's not to say that
00:47:24.64\00:47:27.52
that's bad. You know, some
people like to get through grief
00:47:27.55\00:47:30.97
really fast, like on a fast
forward, and you know they're on
00:47:31.00\00:47:34.39
speed, you know, let me
figure out how to do this.
00:47:34.42\00:47:37.12
And I think there's even
times when you need to go to
00:47:37.16\00:47:39.79
a counselor. If your grief is
extended to the point where you
00:47:39.83\00:47:43.54
are not eating, when maybe
in essence you are being hurtful
00:47:43.57\00:47:47.04
to people around you, however
it may display itself in a
00:47:47.07\00:47:50.35
negative way. God has given
that knowledge with a reason and
00:47:50.39\00:47:53.66
that's good. But just remember,
that of all the things that
00:47:53.69\00:47:57.05
are going to heal us, our
relationships are. And that's
00:47:57.09\00:48:00.38
the most important thing you
offer your friend. So just keep
00:48:00.42\00:48:03.56
coming around even when she's
quiet. Be there and let her
00:48:03.59\00:48:06.70
know you are there for her.
00:48:06.73\00:48:07.83
Mike, do you have anything
to add from a man's perspective?
00:48:07.87\00:48:11.68
I think the main thing is to
be there because what we found
00:48:12.82\00:48:17.65
found in our life is that in
a couple of weeks it's over for
00:48:17.68\00:48:22.48
everybody else, but
it's not over for you.
00:48:22.51\00:48:26.08
And our true
friends have been there.
00:48:26.11\00:48:30.30
That's how you can be a real
friend. It's to be there after
00:48:30.34\00:48:35.10
the first couple of weeks.
00:48:35.13\00:48:36.51
After the first couple of
weeks. Thank you for that.
00:48:36.55\00:48:39.20
Thank you.
00:48:39.23\00:48:40.20
We have another question.
What's you name and what's your
00:48:40.21\00:48:42.93
question?
00:48:42.96\00:48:43.93
My name is Sylvia and I
was wondering how you helped
00:48:43.94\00:48:48.17
children get through the
grief process when they have
00:48:48.21\00:48:52.53
experienced the long term
illness and death of a sibling?
00:48:52.56\00:48:56.85
Of a sibling. Oh
that's really good.
00:48:56.88\00:48:59.73
In fact I had an experience.
I'm glad you asked me that.
00:48:59.77\00:49:03.05
I just thought about it
even as you asked it. Very near
00:49:03.08\00:49:06.29
and dear to my heart. Because
of a little patient that I was
00:49:06.33\00:49:09.23
called to minister to because of
the need for a Spanish minister.
00:49:09.27\00:49:13.99
And this little patient
was dying from a brain tumor.
00:49:14.02\00:49:19.30
And he had a brother
who was there with him.
00:49:19.33\00:49:23.54
And it was the most beautiful
thing because they were so
00:49:23.58\00:49:26.87
close and it was just cute
to watch them. And one of the
00:49:26.90\00:49:30.12
things that we did with them was
we allowed the sibling to paint
00:49:30.16\00:49:35.73
with the dying brother
a beautiful pillow case.
00:49:35.76\00:49:40.93
And they painted one for each of
them because they liked to sleep
00:49:40.97\00:49:45.40
together. And the idea being
that we told the sibling, when
00:49:45.43\00:49:49.85
your brother finally goes to
sleep and he's resting, and just
00:49:49.88\00:49:54.27
finally dies, because you
just have to use that word.
00:49:54.30\00:49:56.87
They need to know the difference
or else they think they can
00:49:57.25\00:49:59.70
just go there and say 'Wake up
and play with me. " but finally
00:49:59.73\00:50:03.21
dies, you're going to have both
pillows to sleep with, so that
00:50:03.25\00:50:06.70
you'll never
forget your brother.
00:50:06.73\00:50:08.51
So sometimes an activity like
that with young children that
00:50:08.55\00:50:13.25
helps them connect with
the memory of that person even
00:50:13.28\00:50:16.19
before they die, so when they
do they have something to hold
00:50:16.23\00:50:20.11
on to, that reminds them of
a wonderful memory, a wonderful
00:50:20.14\00:50:25.31
time. We gave them little nuts,
little peanuts that they ate
00:50:25.34\00:50:30.48
while they were drawing this
and the joy and the interaction
00:50:30.51\00:50:35.16
between them was so beautiful.
00:50:35.19\00:50:36.91
And then the mother brought
a picture to us of the two
00:50:36.95\00:50:39.98
of them sleeping
on the pillow cases.
00:50:40.01\00:50:42.07
And when he was gone, the mother
said that was the greatest
00:50:42.11\00:50:46.19
comfort to him, and he just
kept holding on to that pillow
00:50:46.22\00:50:50.27
because to him that was
like holding on to his little
00:50:50.30\00:50:52.86
brother. So those are
things that are helpful.
00:50:52.89\00:50:55.87
And be creative, God you
know, He's a creative God and in
00:50:55.91\00:50:59.17
times of loss, He's going
to help us to figure out what
00:50:59.21\00:51:02.21
things we can do individually
for that child that will help
00:51:02.25\00:51:05.22
them. Thank you.
00:51:05.25\00:51:06.97
Ok. Can you give us your
name and your question please?
00:51:08.35\00:51:12.22
Larry. I'm an ex veteran, you
know, of a past war and I was
00:51:12.88\00:51:21.96
wondering even myself I
sometimes feel guilty of a
00:51:21.99\00:51:27.23
comrade getting killed and a lot
of my friends, you know, felt
00:51:27.27\00:51:33.41
the same way. How do
you deal with this problem?
00:51:33.44\00:51:36.93
With the guilt problem, is
that what you're talking about?
00:51:36.97\00:51:40.64
I can see that that's a very
personal pain that you have.
00:51:40.67\00:51:44.61
And you know, I will tell
you this my friend, that if your
00:51:44.64\00:51:48.55
your comrade were back and
could talk to you, they wouldn't
00:51:48.58\00:51:52.76
hold you guilty. Guilt
is something we take on
00:51:52.79\00:51:56.01
ourselves.
00:51:56.04\00:51:57.04
Yeah. Sometimes we
feel why not us? You know.
00:51:57.08\00:52:01.52
Yeah. We hold on
to it and you know,
00:52:01.55\00:52:02.92
one of the things that the
Lord came to take from us is our
00:52:02.96\00:52:07.13
guilt, all of us.
00:52:07.16\00:52:08.13
How many of us are not guilty
of so many things and you know,
00:52:08.16\00:52:12.53
sometimes with you is such a
visible thing, the death of a
00:52:12.57\00:52:16.87
comrade in wartime for instance
is such a visible thing and you
00:52:16.91\00:52:21.56
never forget it,
it's pressed in your mind.
00:52:21.59\00:52:23.56
But how many times in life
we haven't done things that have
00:52:23.60\00:52:27.22
caused injury to others.
Sometimes spiritual death, we
00:52:27.25\00:52:31.64
could say. But the Lord came
to set us free from all that.
00:52:31.67\00:52:35.19
And do you know that when
we turn that over to the Lord,
00:52:35.22\00:52:38.67
when we genuinely turn it over
to Him, His healing is perfect
00:52:38.71\00:52:42.92
in us, and your friend would
want that for you because I know
00:52:42.95\00:52:46.72
in any moment, in fact I've said
to people, I've said 'Isn't it
00:52:46.76\00:52:50.50
interesting how when someone
dies we're feeling guilty,
00:52:50.53\00:52:53.85
maybe we didn't do something,
even if we didn't have a part in
00:52:53.89\00:52:56.77
the fact that maybe we thought
that we didn't cover them
00:52:56.80\00:52:59.12
enough or we didn't help
them enough, whatever the issues
00:52:59.15\00:53:01.96
maybe. That friend would be
the first one to say ' No buddy
00:53:02.00\00:53:04.74
I didn't feel that way about you
that could happen to anybody. '
00:53:04.78\00:53:07.50
Guess what? We're human.
00:53:07.53\00:53:08.74
We have limitations but the Lord
came to set you free. And you
00:53:08.77\00:53:12.70
need to be free. The most
precious thing you gave your
00:53:12.73\00:53:15.63
friend was you love and
affection, not your perfection.
00:53:15.67\00:53:19.25
Only the Lord has that. And
some day we'll all be perfected.
00:53:19.28\00:53:22.83
And he will too. God
bless you and let go.
00:53:22.86\00:53:25.62
If you need extra help with that
because you may, you may need
00:53:26.99\00:53:30.26
to process, I do recommend
that you seek a professional
00:53:30.29\00:53:33.14
councilor who can help you
with that. And God will too.
00:53:33.18\00:53:36.70
Prayerfully use the word of
God, his scripture, friends,
00:53:36.74\00:53:40.23
relationships, but
seek out what you need.
00:53:40.26\00:53:42.57
God for a purpose has
those professionals there to
00:53:42.61\00:53:45.86
help you.
00:53:45.89\00:53:46.86
But God bless
you. God bless you.
00:53:46.87\00:53:49.04
Thank you for the question,
and thank all of you for the
00:53:49.07\00:53:52.26
questions that you have
shared today, the very personal
00:53:52.30\00:53:55.50
questions. And Marti as we
close out you have some closing
00:53:55.54\00:53:58.71
thoughts for us?
00:53:58.74\00:53:59.85
Sure. First of all I just want
to say how intimately we each
00:53:59.89\00:54:05.79
have been touched by
this topic, haven't we?
00:54:05.82\00:54:08.09
There isn't one of us in this
room, I'm sure I can say that
00:54:08.13\00:54:10.95
safely. And in my own
life, in my own way, with my own
00:54:10.98\00:54:15.21
tragedies and my own losses,
having lost a baby and then
00:54:15.24\00:54:18.99
almost having lost the son of
promises, I called him, at age
00:54:19.03\00:54:22.29
nine from an automobile accident
, our son was on was on life
00:54:22.32\00:54:25.55
support and not
expected to live.
00:54:25.58\00:54:27.37
I can tell you my friends that
this world is not a place where
00:54:27.41\00:54:31.18
we are going to be free of pain
and sorrow. Would you agree?
00:54:31.22\00:54:35.39
It's not a place; and we need
to remember these things come
00:54:35.43\00:54:39.57
on all people, this is not
something unique to any one
00:54:39.60\00:54:43.15
person. We all suffer
loss and we suffer grief.
00:54:43.18\00:54:46.90
And so how beautiful it is to
know that God has promised not
00:54:46.94\00:54:51.13
that these people
won't have problems.
00:54:51.41\00:54:52.92
Psalm 34 tells us 'Many are the
difficulties of the righteous. '
00:54:52.96\00:54:56.90
Did it say a few? No, 'Many
are the difficulties of the
00:54:56.93\00:55:00.96
righteous. ' The only difference
is that God helps them through
00:55:01.00\00:55:04.52
each one of them. And I have
accepted that in my life that
00:55:04.56\00:55:08.01
the Lord has intended and
sometimes permitted things in my
00:55:08.04\00:55:11.46
life, for my good.
00:55:11.49\00:55:13.03
And my ministry has been
strengthened through those
00:55:13.07\00:55:16.15
experiences.
00:55:16.19\00:55:17.16
And that God wants us to become
stronger people through them,
00:55:17.19\00:55:20.49
not weaker.
00:55:20.52\00:55:21.72
And to say I know who can help
you, I know where my hope lies.
00:55:21.76\00:55:25.50
And some day, you know, this
dying, we're so fearful of it
00:55:25.54\00:55:28.46
and yet and in fact all of
us are dying, isn't that true?
00:55:28.50\00:55:31.39
All of us are dying.
00:55:31.42\00:55:33.09
We like garments
are wearing away.
00:55:33.12\00:55:35.42
But the Lord has promised a day,
a beautiful day when the dead
00:55:35.46\00:55:39.47
Christ will arise for us.
00:55:39.50\00:55:41.27
When we'll be caught up together
with him in the clouds and
00:55:41.31\00:55:44.56
when we will
always be with the Lord.
00:55:44.59\00:55:46.58
And He asks us to comfort
ourselves with these words.
00:55:46.62\00:55:49.39
They are in Thessalonians.
00:55:49.42\00:55:50.81
Those are beautiful verses.
00:55:50.84\00:55:52.16
And I always say 'Father help
me to hold on to the hope. '
00:55:52.20\00:55:56.20
'Help me inspire
hope in people's lives. '
00:55:56.23\00:55:58.66
Help me to relationship with
them and walk with them so that,
00:55:58.70\00:56:02.05
I don't turn from my own flesh,
so that I'm available to each
00:56:02.08\00:56:05.40
one, and give them an
opportunity to know that they
00:56:05.43\00:56:08.47
can come to me.
00:56:08.50\00:56:09.47
That I can create those
environments for the Holy Spirit
00:56:09.48\00:56:12.18
so that they are
open to his healing.
00:56:12.21\00:56:14.53
And God will bless us because
God needs people today who
00:56:14.56\00:56:18.42
will say neither life nor death
nor anything will be able to
00:56:18.45\00:56:23.51
separate me from the
love that I have in Jesus.
00:56:23.54\00:56:26.32
Amen!
00:56:26.35\00:56:27.34
We want to thank our
guests today: Mike McKinnon,
00:56:27.38\00:56:31.50
Debbie Edgerton and Marti
Jones for sharing with us.
00:56:31.53\00:56:35.72
You know, I as a host get
to have the final thoughts.
00:56:35.75\00:56:40.16
And as I thought about what
I could share, I went back to
00:56:40.20\00:56:44.32
to that testimony that we
heard earlier of Brent and his
00:56:44.36\00:56:48.45
final words.
00:56:48.48\00:56:49.45
And throughout Scripture
there are many different stories
00:56:49.46\00:56:53.74
about people's final words
and how meaningful they can be.
00:56:53.77\00:56:58.81
Think of Paul as he was there
with the people in Ephesus in
00:56:58.84\00:57:03.49
Acts 20 and he shared his final
words and they cried together
00:57:03.53\00:57:08.15
but they had had a
wonderful time together.
00:57:08.18\00:57:11.02
And I think in First John where
he ends that last book and he
00:57:11.06\00:57:16.40
says "Little children
keep yourselves from idols" his
00:57:16.43\00:57:20.46
final words,
terms of endearment.
00:57:20.49\00:57:23.33
And then I think of our Lord's
last words that he's coming
00:57:23.37\00:57:27.86
again soon and that he
wants us to be faithful.
00:57:27.89\00:57:31.75
So I don't know what your
final words, or what the words
00:57:31.79\00:57:35.25
you've said today are to
those around you but think about
00:57:35.28\00:57:39.16
them as being your final words
and if you do that every day
00:57:39.20\00:57:43.05
you'll be prepared.
00:57:43.08\00:57:44.73
You'll be prepared
for whatever life brings.
00:57:44.77\00:57:49.17
Thanks for being with us.
00:57:49.20\00:57:50.45