Are you or a loved
one crippled by sin?
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Are you struggling
with the stronghold
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of same-sex
attraction or sexual immorality?
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Well, stay tuned to meet someone
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who has some strategies
to defeat the strongholds.
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My name is Jason Bradley,
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report.
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My guest today
is Michael Carducci,
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co-founder and speaker
For Coming Out Ministries.
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Welcome to
Urban Report, Michael.
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It's good to be here.
It's great to have you here.
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I wish you were
here with me in person.
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So we could talk
about this incredible topic.
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This is a powerful thing
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we're going to
be discussing today.
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Yeah, I'm grateful for
the opportunity, Jason.
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Yes.
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And I'm grateful
for you stepping out
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and taking this on.
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So why don't you tell us about
who is Coming Out Ministries?
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Sure, thank you.
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Coming Out Ministry
started 11 years ago by five
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individuals that
all had testimonies
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of coming out of sexual sin.
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Specifically some of us
were coming out of bisexuality,
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transgenderism,
lesbianism, bisexual addiction,
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porn addiction, everything.
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And as we realize that
each one of us had a ministry,
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we thought, you know,
if one of us told a story,
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that would be a good thing,
but what if five people got
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together and formed a
ministry to tell their stories?
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So that's how it started since
then we now have six speakers.
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We have 10 people on our board.
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We have probably 25 volunteers,
a volunteer behind the scenes.
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So Coming Out Ministries
has evolved into something
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much greater than
even what we anticipated
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11 years ago.
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Wow. Wow.
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And it seems like
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the climate is
right for it right now
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with all that's going on.
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Well, do you know Jason?
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I think, yeah, I think that our
popularity hasn't necessarily
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been because
we're strong speakers
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or incredible celebrities,
I think is because of the...
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It's the issue of the day.
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As a matter of fact,
Dwayne Lemon even calls us
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the present truth ministry,
because we're dealing about
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the issues that
contemporary society
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is dealing with from
a biblical perspective.
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Yes. Yes.
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What have been
some of your triumphs?
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Some of our triumphs?
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I, well, it really, it
really kind of goes back.
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I think, to some of the ministry
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opportunities that
we've had in the past
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where we've met people,
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we've encouraged
people along the way,
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and they've chosen to walk
away from their LGBT identities.
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And as we were
working with them,
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we were studying with
them and promoting them.
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They were telling their stories,
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their incredible
stories and you know,
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something, it's
interesting that you bring it up
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so early in the interview
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and I really
want to unpack this.
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But one of the things
that we started to realize
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is that God gives
us this incredible gift
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and that's the gift of the will.
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We have the choice of
the will each and every day
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and several times in a day.
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And sometimes because
of that precious gift,
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that there's also a huge
risk that goes to that gift
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is that I can choose
at any time to walk away.
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And it's not a gay thing.
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It's not a straight thing.
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It's basically God's
respecting of the will.
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So in the last 11
years, we've had individuals
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that chose to go
back into the gay culture
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or they fell
back into addictions,
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and Coming Out Ministries
had to really assess ourselves
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and say, wait a
minute, you know,
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is this what kind of
a ministry do we have?
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Do we just turn and walk
away from these individuals
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and act as if
they never existed?
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We don't talk about it.
We don't mention it anymore.
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But instead what we did
is we started to establish
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on Wednesday
mornings, we started to pray
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and fast for
individuals that we have lost
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for individuals
that are in the ministry,
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that we are
encouraging relationships with.
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And through that
process, and I can't even,
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I mean, we've had
opportunities where we've spoken
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around the world,
but I think the greatest,
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the greatest events that
have happened in Coming Out
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Ministries is when
two of those individuals
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have actually come back.
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One of them was
actually a founding member
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of Coming Out Ministries.
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If you go to our
February newsletter,
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you can read all about
it because one of the things
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that I'm the most
proud about this ministry
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is that everybody
has the right to choose.
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And the consequences of those
decisions are always there.
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And we face them every
day, but there are many ministry
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leaders that have
fallen away because of not only
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sexual sin, but
because of other sins
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or other reasons that
they walk away from ministry.
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So does that mean that the Bible
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is still not the truth?
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Does that mean that the
word doesn't have any value?
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No.
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It just means
that we're human beings
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that are frail and
fall into temptations.
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So as we were talking about
how to bring these people back,
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we felt that we
had an opportunity
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and an honor to
talk about how God still
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is in the
business of restoration.
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One of the
examples that I want to use
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is my colleague Wayne Blakely,
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who walked away from our
ministry before years ago.
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And he really had
to assess some things
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that were going on in his life.
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He had to really
assess the power of temptation
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and what that was doing
not only in his representation
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of the ministry,
but was that even
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the goal of what he
wanted as far as you know,
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his eternal salvation.
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And through that
process, we didn't drop him.
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We didn't let him
go and pretend like
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he never existed.
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But instead what we did
is we rallied around him.
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We loved him.
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And in that process,
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not that it had
anything to do with us,
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but as the Lord was
ministering to his soul,
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he began to start writing again.
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He began to really
start praying again,
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and he started to pursue Jesus
Christ in a whole different way
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that I believe made it an even
better part of his testimony.
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So just because somebody falls,
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you know, the
Bible is very clear.
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Mary had to be healed
the demon seven times.
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And we know that in
the Bible, in Proverbs,
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it talks about the righteous
man and the wicked man,
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they both fall.
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And the righteous
man falls seven times.
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And what that means is that
he falls until he gets it right.
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And so just
because somebody falls,
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it doesn't mean that
their ministry is over.
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It just means that they're human
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and that the
power of Jesus Christ
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can still be
manifested in their life.
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So not only did
that happen for Wayne,
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but it also happened
for another colleague
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that we spoke
with internationally.
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And she had come out of
transgenderism and lesbianism.
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And while she was
speaking for us these,
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the temptation
again got overwhelming.
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She said, you
know, I can't represent
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the ministry anymore.
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She went back into the gay life.
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And then while she
was in the gay life,
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we were praying and fasting.
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Again, her mother was with us.
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We were all desperately pleading
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for the Holy Spirit
to work in her life.
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And you know,
miraculously, two weekends ago,
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she got baptized again,
coming back into a relationship
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with Jesus Christ.
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She has a podcast,
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she's got a ministry
that she's starting as well.
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And so, those are
the most powerful things
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I think that has
happened to Coming Out Ministry.
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I can't believe you asked
that as the second question.
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It's like, we've
so much more to cover.
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I was hoping we'd save that
for the last, but it's good.
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Let it get out.
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That's right. That's right.
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And we want to
hear even more stories.
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So we've got, we've
got this whole time to hear
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some powerful stories
about how God is moving.
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What are some of your greatest
challenges that you face?
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Some of the greatest challenges
that we face are really
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not with the world so much
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and what the world's attitudes
are about LGBT promotion
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and acceptance.
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I'm just gonna put it out there.
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Jason, 'cause you
asked is the acceptance
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of our own church inside.
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There is a huge polarization
going on in our church that,
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that when I came
back into the church,
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you know, 20 years
ago, the issue was that,
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you know, gays can't
change and that God hates them.
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And now all of a sudden it's,
there's this complete opposite
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side that, you know,
that gays can change,
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but God loves them.
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So what's amazing to me is
that the message is the same
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saying that God,
gays can't change,
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but we either hate
them or we love them.
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And you know what?
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Did anybody read 1
Corinthians Chapter 6?
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If you will look at verse 11,
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it says such worse some
of you after explained all
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of the abominations
that won't be in heaven.
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And yes, homosexuality
is just one of many.
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Did you know that even gossips
are listed as an abomination,
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that won't be in heaven.
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So isn't that interesting
that God puts gossips
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and homosexuals
right on the same level.
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There's not one
that's better than the other.
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They're the same.
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It's the same with fornication,
adultery, murder stealing.
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So, all right.
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So if we're going to
pick on one group of people,
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we have to at least be inclusive
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of all the other issues that,
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that the Bible
is very clear about.
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So if we're
going to be inclusive,
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then that means that we
shouldn't be exclusive either
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and allow the LGBT
community to identify
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themselves in their temptations
or their simple behaviors.
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So, so again, we don't,
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we don't isolate
one from the other.
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We put them all
in the same level,
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the same category,
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which may actually
bring you to another question
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about Coming Out Ministries.
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We're not about LGBT
issues anymore, Jason.
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And while we all
had that in common,
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we had many other things
that were in common as well.
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And we found that people
as they were coming to us
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and listening to
us, they thought, oh,
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I thought this was
all about the gay issue.
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But really I realized
that you're talking about me.
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And even though I
never struggled with,
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with homosexuality,
they, people would say
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that they struggle with
porn addiction or they struggled
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with masturbation
or premarital sex,
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or these other
things started coming up.
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And they were realizing
that the victory over sin
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was really our message.
00:10:02.66\00:10:04.50
And so we started to be
more inclusive about Coming Out
00:10:04.53\00:10:07.34
Ministries is not
just about coming out
00:10:07.37\00:10:10.07
of the closet or going
back into the closet as LGBT,
00:10:10.11\00:10:13.31
but instead it's
about restoring all men
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and women back to the
image of our Creator God,
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which isn't a gay
thing or a straight thing,
00:10:18.61\00:10:20.48
it's about holiness.
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You know, Jesus says be
holy, even as I am holy.
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So what does that
look like in our world
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today with all of these
social constructs about being
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who you are and
identifying as who you are being
00:10:29.89\00:10:32.19
comfortable with who you are?
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Well, the Bible
says I have to die daily.
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And what does that
mean? How do I get there?
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And how do I learn the
process of embracing something
00:10:38.70\00:10:42.20
other than what did
define me other than the things
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that I was attracted to,
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that I was allowing to define me
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and to find
identity in something
00:10:48.94\00:10:50.45
that gave me something better
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than what the
world is giving me?
00:10:52.28\00:10:53.68
And that may seem
like going around my elbow
00:10:53.72\00:10:56.12
to get to my wrist, Jason.
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But I think that
that's the biggest challenge
00:10:57.52\00:10:59.69
that we have right now
is convincing the church
00:10:59.72\00:11:02.29
that they've
really dropped the ball.
00:11:02.32\00:11:03.76
They dropped the ball
because what they've done
00:11:03.79\00:11:06.09
now is, is they've
given up the biblical evidence
00:11:06.13\00:11:08.86
that God can restore and redeem.
00:11:08.90\00:11:10.97
And, and what we've done is
00:11:11.00\00:11:12.33
we sold into
these social constructs,
00:11:12.37\00:11:13.77
whether it's because
schools are accepting,
00:11:13.80\00:11:17.24
you know, government funding,
whether it's our universities,
00:11:17.27\00:11:20.28
whether they're just
trying to meet, you know,
00:11:20.31\00:11:22.84
these different
social constructs halfway,
00:11:22.88\00:11:24.65
I don't know.
00:11:24.68\00:11:26.01
But unfortunately
we have lost the fact
00:11:26.05\00:11:28.68
that Jesus still has the power
to redeem and to restore lives.
00:11:28.72\00:11:32.22
And 2 Timothy 3:5 is very clear.
00:11:32.25\00:11:34.66
It says, there's a form.
00:11:34.69\00:11:36.56
There's a people that
have a form of godliness,
00:11:36.59\00:11:38.89
but they deny the power
thereof, from such stay away.
00:11:38.93\00:11:42.53
So when you do not have
the power of Jesus Christ
00:11:42.56\00:11:44.70
to restore what you're
doing, you're basically saying
00:11:44.73\00:11:47.64
that the, that
the, that the example
00:11:47.67\00:11:50.21
of what Jesus gave us
on the cross is impotent,
00:11:50.24\00:11:52.54
that everything that
Jesus accomplished for us
00:11:52.57\00:11:54.81
is basically null and void.
00:11:54.84\00:11:56.44
And, of course, you
would say that that's only
00:11:56.48\00:11:58.18
some people that's
not all the church.
00:11:58.21\00:12:00.48
That's not all the universities.
00:12:00.52\00:12:02.32
That's not all the, yeah.
00:12:02.35\00:12:04.69
We want to make
that, that clear.
00:12:04.72\00:12:06.45
Yeah.
00:12:06.49\00:12:07.82
Well, you know,
Jason it's tough.
00:12:07.86\00:12:10.29
It's really tough.
00:12:10.33\00:12:11.79
There's very few of our
universities that will actually
00:12:11.83\00:12:15.03
embrace biblical evidence
of biblical truth on sexuality.
00:12:15.06\00:12:18.63
And while in every
school, in every conference
00:12:18.67\00:12:21.44
and in every union,
there are people that,
00:12:21.47\00:12:23.71
that support our ministry
that support our message.
00:12:23.74\00:12:26.61
But unfortunately
there's enough strong
00:12:26.64\00:12:29.58
leadership that certain
countries will not allow
00:12:29.61\00:12:31.95
Coming Out Ministries to
even enter into their country
00:12:31.98\00:12:34.88
or speaking to their churches.
00:12:34.92\00:12:36.52
And sometimes we've
even been escorted off
00:12:36.55\00:12:39.15
the campuses because
they didn't want Coming
00:12:39.19\00:12:41.72
Out Ministries to talk
about the biblical evidence
00:12:41.76\00:12:44.33
of God's restoration.
00:12:44.36\00:12:47.00
You touched on something earlier
00:12:47.03\00:12:49.16
that I want to revisit it,
00:12:49.20\00:12:50.53
you know, in terms of
putting sin on a pedestal,
00:12:50.57\00:12:55.24
why is it do you think
that people put particular
00:12:55.27\00:12:59.97
sins up on a
pedestal when the Bible says,
00:13:00.01\00:13:03.24
you know, for the
wages of sin is death?
00:13:03.28\00:13:07.88
You know, I like
the way you put that,
00:13:07.92\00:13:10.75
because I didn't say that
they put it on a pedestal,
00:13:10.79\00:13:12.42
they kind of separated.
00:13:12.45\00:13:13.79
They kind of made,
you know, like years ago,
00:13:13.82\00:13:15.86
years ago, like homosexuality
was this horrible thing.
00:13:15.89\00:13:19.26
And that there was just no
way that God could redeem it
00:13:19.29\00:13:21.60
so that wasn't
putting it up on a pedestal.
00:13:21.63\00:13:23.53
It was really kind
of separating it out.
00:13:23.57\00:13:24.93
Meaning, if you send
like that, that's really bad.
00:13:24.97\00:13:27.97
Like that's so bad that
God can't even help you.
00:13:28.00\00:13:30.37
But now I think you're right.
00:13:30.41\00:13:32.04
I think they put that
on a pedestal because now
00:13:32.07\00:13:34.58
things have switched around.
00:13:34.61\00:13:35.94
Isaiah 5:20 says,
00:13:35.98\00:13:37.75
"Woe to them that make
evil good and good evil."
00:13:37.78\00:13:40.78
So now we've taken LGBT issue
00:13:40.82\00:13:42.98
and we put it up on
this pedestal and said,
00:13:43.02\00:13:45.12
yeah, you know,
what is hateful to tell
00:13:45.15\00:13:46.99
gays that they can change.
00:13:47.02\00:13:48.66
And if the gays
can't change that they were
00:13:48.69\00:13:50.93
born that way and
that we should love them
00:13:50.96\00:13:53.83
because God loves them.
00:13:53.86\00:13:55.20
So we've completely
thrown away by the gospel.
00:13:55.23\00:13:58.53
We've thrown away the
power of God to redeem
00:13:58.57\00:14:00.50
and to restore.
00:14:00.54\00:14:01.87
So now, if, if, if I've
got same-sex attraction, Jason,
00:14:01.90\00:14:04.94
and then if I understand
that the Adventist Church
00:14:04.97\00:14:07.38
now says that it's okay to
identify as a gay Christian,
00:14:07.41\00:14:11.18
then what that means is that
00:14:11.21\00:14:13.01
I don't have
anything to confess.
00:14:13.05\00:14:14.82
Remember, 1 John 1:9 says, that
00:14:14.85\00:14:16.72
"If we confess our sins,
00:14:16.75\00:14:18.12
He is faithful and just
not only to forgive our sins,
00:14:18.15\00:14:20.59
but to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness."
00:14:20.62\00:14:22.89
But if I don't
believe that I have to confess
00:14:22.92\00:14:26.29
that I have same-sex attraction.
00:14:26.33\00:14:28.36
Then if I don't confess
that, then I have cut myself off
00:14:28.40\00:14:31.47
from the cleansing,
forgiveness and restoration
00:14:31.50\00:14:33.60
that Jesus has provided for me.
00:14:33.64\00:14:36.27
So again, when we
take a sin temptation
00:14:36.30\00:14:38.91
and to attach it on
our identity in Christ,
00:14:38.94\00:14:41.54
we're making that sinful
behavior or that identity,
00:14:41.58\00:14:45.78
we're making that exclusive
from all the other identities
00:14:45.81\00:14:48.18
that haven't got
a chance, you know,
00:14:48.22\00:14:49.85
that God says in Chapter 6,
00:14:49.88\00:14:51.95
that these are the abominations
that won't be in heaven.
00:14:51.99\00:14:54.72
So I don't get that.
00:14:54.76\00:14:56.09
And you know, a very prominent
pastor told me, he said,
00:14:56.12\00:14:59.36
we don't want to
be exclusive here.
00:14:59.39\00:15:01.86
And we want to allow LGBT
people to be put in the same
00:15:01.90\00:15:06.40
group as everybody else.
00:15:06.43\00:15:07.77
And I said to this
person, then why would you allow
00:15:07.80\00:15:10.31
a gay person to identify
as a gay Christian unless
00:15:10.34\00:15:13.48
you're willing to
identify as a lying Christian
00:15:13.51\00:15:16.01
or an adulterating Christian
or a fornicating Christian.
00:15:16.04\00:15:20.25
You get my point.
It doesn't make sense.
00:15:20.28\00:15:22.38
But if you're going to
allow someone to identify
00:15:22.42\00:15:23.95
as a gay Christian,
which is a sinful temptation,
00:15:23.99\00:15:27.29
and let me be clear,
00:15:27.32\00:15:28.76
God does not condemn the person
that has same sex attraction.
00:15:28.79\00:15:31.83
He condemns the behavior.
00:15:31.86\00:15:33.36
And that also applies
to transgenderism as well.
00:15:33.40\00:15:36.33
But I can't continue to
identify as a gay Christian,
00:15:36.36\00:15:41.47
if God is asking me to walk
away from that identity that I,
00:15:41.50\00:15:44.71
that I lived in
for over 20 years.
00:15:44.74\00:15:47.11
Why would I continue
to call myself something
00:15:47.14\00:15:50.35
when God says
I'm a new creature,
00:15:50.38\00:15:52.01
in Christ, I'm a new creature.
00:15:52.05\00:15:53.38
All things have passed away.
00:15:53.42\00:15:54.75
Behold, everything becomes new.
00:15:54.78\00:15:56.52
Well, even though
everything is becoming new
00:15:56.55\00:15:58.72
over the last 20 years that
I've been walking this walk,
00:15:58.75\00:16:00.56
Jason, it doesn't mean
that God took away my history
00:16:00.59\00:16:03.49
or my memory.
00:16:03.53\00:16:04.86
And we know that that
Paul prayed to be relieved
00:16:04.89\00:16:07.16
of this thorn in the flesh.
00:16:07.20\00:16:08.53
So maybe his
thorn in the flesh was,
00:16:08.56\00:16:10.90
you know, his old
thoughts and his old behaviors.
00:16:10.93\00:16:14.24
And while God doesn't promise
to take away my temptations,
00:16:14.27\00:16:17.41
what he does promise
is to give me strength
00:16:17.44\00:16:19.27
and grace to
overcome those temptations.
00:16:19.31\00:16:21.68
And I believe that that's
what every single one of us
00:16:21.71\00:16:24.58
is learning to do.
00:16:24.61\00:16:25.95
Whether you are
same-sex attracted,
00:16:25.98\00:16:27.65
whether you were
addicted to pornography
00:16:27.68\00:16:29.88
and masturbation, whether
you were in premarital sexual
00:16:29.92\00:16:33.82
relationships or
whatever that was,
00:16:33.86\00:16:35.42
God doesn't take
away the memory of that.
00:16:35.46\00:16:36.99
But He does promise to
give us power to overcome
00:16:37.03\00:16:39.26
those temptations and behaviors.
00:16:39.29\00:16:40.73
Yes.
00:16:40.76\00:16:42.10
Right now, how about
you give us some tips
00:16:42.13\00:16:44.13
and some strategies to overcome
some of those strongholds,
00:16:44.17\00:16:47.57
like, what do you tell people
when you're counseling them
00:16:47.60\00:16:49.77
or when you're
speaking with them?
00:16:49.80\00:16:53.14
Well, this is
really interesting.
00:16:53.17\00:16:55.28
I've had some recent
conversations with a few people
00:16:55.31\00:16:58.41
that really alarmed me.
00:16:58.45\00:17:00.62
And I think that
when 40 years ago
00:17:00.65\00:17:03.95
when I was 20 years old
00:17:03.99\00:17:05.32
and I was struggling
with same-sex attraction,
00:17:05.35\00:17:08.06
I hadn't actually gone
into the gay life or anything.
00:17:08.09\00:17:10.53
But I remember
that I had two thoughts.
00:17:10.56\00:17:12.83
I had two
decisions that I could make.
00:17:12.86\00:17:14.80
Number one, I
could either be gay
00:17:14.83\00:17:17.10
or I could be a Christian,
but I couldn't be both.
00:17:17.13\00:17:20.94
And now what I hear is
that people have this kind
00:17:20.97\00:17:25.37
of warped sense of the gospel,
meaning that that cheap grace
00:17:25.41\00:17:28.88
basically says that I
can be addicted to porn
00:17:28.91\00:17:31.61
and I could be fornicating
00:17:31.65\00:17:33.55
and still have
a place in heaven.
00:17:33.58\00:17:35.32
And some of them are
preachers and teachers
00:17:35.35\00:17:37.82
and people that
are getting baptized.
00:17:37.85\00:17:40.29
And, and here's the
big misunderstanding is,
00:17:40.32\00:17:43.53
yes, God loves
us just as we are,
00:17:43.56\00:17:47.46
but He's not going to
leave us where we are.
00:17:47.50\00:17:49.56
And so while He does love
us, even though we're sinful,
00:17:49.60\00:17:52.67
He's willing
for us to accept Him
00:17:52.70\00:17:54.74
as He is and walk according
to, to, to the foundation
00:17:54.77\00:18:00.11
of what He established
that He said is good for you.
00:18:00.14\00:18:02.88
You know, people get
caught up in this thing that
00:18:02.91\00:18:04.55
if I give up my, my life,
according to what the Bible
00:18:04.58\00:18:08.12
says is simple, then,
then I'm losing something
00:18:08.15\00:18:11.05
like I'm not
being true to myself.
00:18:11.09\00:18:12.85
Well, the Bible says that
everything is permissible,
00:18:12.89\00:18:15.62
but not
everything is beneficial.
00:18:15.66\00:18:17.43
And while God allows
us to make the choice
00:18:17.46\00:18:19.43
and to live by those choices,
00:18:19.46\00:18:21.40
our choices have
become perverted because we've
00:18:21.43\00:18:24.23
indulged in the
things that come naturally,
00:18:24.27\00:18:26.74
God isn't going to take
perverted characters to heaven.
00:18:26.77\00:18:29.80
And while I come to
Him, as I am polluted and,
00:18:29.84\00:18:32.57
and perverted, He says,
take hold of my strength.
00:18:32.61\00:18:36.61
In Philippians 2:5,
"Let this mind be in you
00:18:36.64\00:18:39.31
so that you can have my
thoughts and my feelings.
00:18:39.35\00:18:42.05
Let me take your
perverted thoughts and feelings
00:18:42.08\00:18:44.22
and heal them and give you
holy thoughts and feelings."
00:18:44.25\00:18:48.26
And that is a process.
00:18:48.29\00:18:49.92
One of the things that
have recently come to my mind,
00:18:49.96\00:18:53.93
which is really
powerfully convicting
00:18:53.96\00:18:55.90
is that my sister was in church
00:18:55.93\00:18:58.70
and this little old lady in
her 90s said that for three,
00:18:58.73\00:19:02.60
for three generations her
family has been Adventist,
00:19:02.64\00:19:05.21
and now I said, oh,
Jesus is coming soon.
00:19:05.24\00:19:07.11
Jesus is coming soon.
00:19:07.14\00:19:08.58
And she said
that, this woman said,
00:19:08.61\00:19:10.41
I'm not saying that anymore.
00:19:10.45\00:19:11.78
Once I've seen the
pandemic take over the world
00:19:11.81\00:19:14.42
and I've seen LGBT
acceptance and these laws
00:19:14.45\00:19:17.85
and everything that's
happening in the church today,
00:19:17.89\00:19:20.36
she said, Jesus
isn't coming soon.
00:19:20.39\00:19:22.79
Jesus is just playing coming.
00:19:22.82\00:19:24.53
And when she said that, my
sister had her mouth dropped
00:19:24.56\00:19:26.73
open when she realized that.
00:19:26.76\00:19:28.10
And I thought,
wow, that's right.
00:19:28.13\00:19:29.93
Jesus really is coming
soon if you're watching the way
00:19:29.96\00:19:31.97
march in the prophecy, you
can tell what's on the horizon.
00:19:32.00\00:19:35.40
And I was sharing that
with a brother in Switzerland
00:19:35.44\00:19:38.01
and we were just walking one
night and he said, wow, Mike.
00:19:38.04\00:19:40.94
He said, when
you think about that,
00:19:40.98\00:19:42.68
if Jesus is
coming soon, he said,
00:19:42.71\00:19:45.25
that means not
very long from now,
00:19:45.28\00:19:47.12
there won't be any more sin.
00:19:47.15\00:19:48.88
And that absolutely
grabbed my attention.
00:19:48.92\00:19:51.45
And my reaction
was the same as mine.
00:19:51.49\00:19:53.36
I thought, wait a minute.
00:19:53.39\00:19:54.72
If sin won't be any
more than as a Christian,
00:19:54.76\00:19:57.69
I need to make sure that
my sins are in the sanctuary
00:19:57.73\00:20:00.53
and that daily, I am
asking God to help me to hate
00:20:00.56\00:20:03.90
sin perfectly.
00:20:03.93\00:20:05.27
That's my new prayer, Jason.
00:20:05.30\00:20:06.77
Lord, help me to hate sin
perfectly because honestly
00:20:06.80\00:20:10.14
on our own, Jason,
none of us can do that.
00:20:10.17\00:20:12.04
None of us can
hate sin perfectly.
00:20:12.07\00:20:14.18
So how do we get to that process
00:20:14.21\00:20:15.84
of learning the
character of Jesus Christ,
00:20:15.88\00:20:18.45
learning the process of getting
those sins in the sanctuary?
00:20:18.48\00:20:22.18
And I was
reading well, actually,
00:20:22.22\00:20:23.85
I've been reading for
probably the last month,
00:20:23.89\00:20:26.02
the book, Mind, Character
and Personality, Chapter 15.
00:20:26.05\00:20:29.29
And that is a very startling
chapter when you read it,
00:20:29.32\00:20:33.76
because it talks about the will.
00:20:33.80\00:20:36.03
And that is the
bottom line for people
00:20:36.06\00:20:37.53
who are addicted,
for people who have
00:20:37.57\00:20:39.77
fallen in the
temptations, for people
00:20:39.80\00:20:41.94
who are stuck
with certain behaviors
00:20:41.97\00:20:45.27
that they don't like anymore.
00:20:45.31\00:20:46.81
You read that chapter,
and it tells you exactly
00:20:46.84\00:20:49.64
how to overcome sin by,
by surrendering the will.
00:20:49.68\00:20:54.72
And I think that
that we've made that kind
00:20:54.75\00:20:56.28
of a cavalier
statement, we're all, yes,
00:20:56.32\00:20:58.15
when you will
surrender your will,
00:20:58.19\00:21:00.16
but what does that really mean?
00:21:00.19\00:21:01.52
And what I'm
finding in my own pursuit
00:21:01.56\00:21:04.06
is that asking the
Lord to give me His will.
00:21:04.09\00:21:08.26
And as simple as that sounds,
00:21:08.30\00:21:10.23
it just means
that I'm acquiescing.
00:21:10.27\00:21:12.30
That means that I'm
giving Jesus permission.
00:21:12.33\00:21:14.37
I just give Him permission
because you know what?
00:21:14.40\00:21:16.64
Oh, this is so cool.
00:21:16.67\00:21:18.01
Jason, listen to me, listen,
00:21:18.04\00:21:20.18
I'm going to preach
it for just a minute
00:21:20.21\00:21:21.54
that you're gonna love this.
00:21:21.58\00:21:22.91
Hey preach, take your time.
00:21:22.94\00:21:24.98
All right. Right. All right.
00:21:25.01\00:21:26.35
I'm going to, but
there was this young woman
00:21:26.38\00:21:28.05
that accidentally
came on our reformer's line
00:21:28.08\00:21:30.35
and it was my fault.
00:21:30.39\00:21:31.72
It was my fault.
00:21:31.75\00:21:33.09
Let me just, let me
just be honest about that.
00:21:33.12\00:21:34.46
She was, she was a lesbian woman
00:21:34.49\00:21:36.59
that I'd met in Switzerland
00:21:36.62\00:21:38.16
and I was speaking
there and she came up
00:21:38.19\00:21:39.63
and she was
really kind of, you know,
00:21:39.66\00:21:41.70
dismissed by my presentation.
00:21:41.73\00:21:43.13
And she said, if I
was ever to pray again,
00:21:43.16\00:21:46.23
I would never ask God to
take away my relationship.
00:21:46.27\00:21:49.04
And so we
exchanged phone numbers,
00:21:49.07\00:21:51.14
we dialogue a little bit.
00:21:51.17\00:21:52.67
She was a beautiful
woman in her mid 30s.
00:21:52.71\00:21:54.61
And so I was scrolling.
00:21:54.64\00:21:56.88
I was, look, I was
scrolling through my phone
00:21:56.91\00:21:59.11
and I'm trying
to find these people
00:21:59.15\00:22:00.52
to invite to
our reformer's line.
00:22:00.55\00:22:02.58
And we have an
international reformer's line
00:22:02.62\00:22:04.22
which is really incredible.
00:22:04.25\00:22:05.59
Ask me, ask me
about that later on.
00:22:05.62\00:22:07.26
So I was asking all
these people that come in
00:22:07.29\00:22:09.86
and I was inviting
people from South Africa,
00:22:09.89\00:22:12.03
New Zealand Zimbabwe, you know,
00:22:12.06\00:22:16.46
all around
Europe, Sweden, Denmark.
00:22:16.50\00:22:18.13
So I found her name and I go,
oh, lesbian from Switzerland.
00:22:18.17\00:22:22.20
Boop. I invited her.
00:22:22.24\00:22:23.57
So when I
opened up the zoom line
00:22:23.61\00:22:25.24
and I looked and I
see this young woman,
00:22:25.27\00:22:27.08
she goes, Hey,
Mike, remember me?
00:22:27.11\00:22:28.64
And I'm like, no, not really.
00:22:28.68\00:22:30.05
She said, I'm from
Zurich, Switzerland.
00:22:30.08\00:22:32.61
And then it hit me.
00:22:32.65\00:22:33.98
And I thought, oh,
I've made a huge mistake.
00:22:34.02\00:22:35.35
I've invited
this woman to an ex,
00:22:35.38\00:22:38.22
you know, to an ex-gay
zoom chat, prayer line.
00:22:38.25\00:22:42.12
And so she said,
well, she goes, that's okay.
00:22:42.16\00:22:44.99
She said, I was curious
about what you had to say.
00:22:45.03\00:22:47.86
And the Holy Spirit
said, do not let her go,
00:22:47.90\00:22:49.96
do not let her go.
00:22:50.00\00:22:51.33
And I thought, well, how
am I going to incorporate
00:22:51.37\00:22:52.77
her into this group?
00:22:52.80\00:22:54.14
And we had like 20
some people in this group
00:22:54.17\00:22:55.74
all over the world.
00:22:55.77\00:22:57.11
And so I thought, okay.
00:22:57.14\00:22:58.71
I said, would you be willing
to share what your reaction
00:22:58.74\00:23:01.04
was when I gave my
testimony in your church?
00:23:01.08\00:23:03.78
And she said, I'd be happy to.
00:23:03.81\00:23:06.31
And so it was a, with a little
bit of fear and trepidation,
00:23:06.35\00:23:09.32
but I brought her into the group
00:23:09.35\00:23:11.72
and she was very plain.
00:23:11.75\00:23:13.09
And she said, Mike, you're old.
00:23:13.12\00:23:14.52
You know, you don't have
any sexual attractions anymore.
00:23:14.56\00:23:17.23
She said, but I'm young.
00:23:17.26\00:23:18.59
And I like sex
and it feels good.
00:23:18.63\00:23:20.76
And as we were
talking or whatever,
00:23:20.80\00:23:22.33
she basically dismissed me.
00:23:22.36\00:23:23.83
But what was so incredible,
Jason is she started to hear
00:23:23.87\00:23:27.00
20 other people around
the world talking about
00:23:27.04\00:23:30.01
how they had given God
their identities and sexuality
00:23:30.04\00:23:34.44
and their
addictions and their drives.
00:23:34.48\00:23:36.44
And there was a 20 year
old man that had been walking
00:23:36.48\00:23:39.05
with Jesus for three years,
talking about it was difficult,
00:23:39.08\00:23:42.05
but that he realized that
God was offering him something
00:23:42.08\00:23:44.42
so much better.
00:23:44.45\00:23:45.79
And then other
people started to share.
00:23:45.82\00:23:47.26
By the end of that
two hour zoom call,
00:23:47.29\00:23:49.72
she was in tears and
she continues to come back.
00:23:49.76\00:23:53.09
Jason, that's
what I'm talking about.
00:23:53.13\00:23:55.36
Praise God. Praise God.
00:23:55.40\00:23:57.40
Well, wait, wait, wait,
wait, here's the other part,
00:23:57.43\00:23:59.67
here's the other part.
00:23:59.70\00:24:01.04
And I'm sorry, I was
just going around my elbow,
00:24:01.07\00:24:02.70
but it's necessary
because I called her
00:24:02.74\00:24:05.87
another time and we were
having this long conversation
00:24:05.91\00:24:08.08
and she said, you know what?
00:24:08.11\00:24:09.44
I know it's wrong.
00:24:09.48\00:24:10.81
She said, I know
being gay is wrong.
00:24:10.85\00:24:12.75
She said, but you know what?
00:24:12.78\00:24:14.32
Fifty percent of
me can't help it.
00:24:14.35\00:24:16.89
Fifty percent of
me, I just can't do it.
00:24:16.92\00:24:19.05
And she said, and 50%
of me doesn't want to.
00:24:19.09\00:24:22.62
Jason, that's it, make a bumper
00:24:22.66\00:24:24.19
sticker because it's
not about sexual sin,
00:24:24.23\00:24:26.13
it's about all sin.
00:24:26.16\00:24:27.50
Fifty percent of
us, we know we can't.
00:24:27.53\00:24:29.83
And 50% of us doesn't want to.
00:24:29.86\00:24:31.77
And when I put that
together with the will,
00:24:31.80\00:24:34.50
surrendering the will,
that's exactly what I pray now.
00:24:34.54\00:24:37.11
Lord, 50% of me can't
00:24:37.14\00:24:39.67
and 50% of me doesn't want to,
00:24:39.71\00:24:41.48
but I choose to
give You my will.
00:24:41.51\00:24:45.05
And you know what?
00:24:45.08\00:24:46.41
That's when the power
and the grace of Jesus Christ
00:24:46.45\00:24:49.78
comes in and swoops in
and gives me the strength
00:24:49.82\00:24:53.76
that otherwise on my
own, I wouldn't have known
00:24:53.79\00:24:56.32
or what I want to.
00:24:56.36\00:24:57.93
Lord, help me to
hate sin perfectly.
00:24:57.96\00:25:01.33
That's
powerful. That's powerful.
00:25:01.36\00:25:02.70
Mike, tell us a little bit about
00:25:02.73\00:25:04.33
the prayer line real quick?
00:25:04.37\00:25:07.84
Okay.
00:25:07.87\00:25:09.20
So the prayer line is probably,
00:25:09.24\00:25:10.57
I think the greatest
thing that Coming Out Ministries
00:25:10.61\00:25:13.11
has ever done it,
if not anything else,
00:25:13.14\00:25:15.44
because we meet
three times a week.
00:25:15.48\00:25:17.81
On Monday evenings,
00:25:17.85\00:25:19.18
we have a zoom call at
7 o'clock Eastern Time.
00:25:19.21\00:25:21.78
Also 9:00 AM on Thursdays
00:25:21.82\00:25:24.95
Eastern Standard Time
in our phone prayer line
00:25:24.99\00:25:27.76
and also Friday
mornings at 6:00 AM.
00:25:27.79\00:25:29.86
So we try to
include the East Coast
00:25:29.89\00:25:31.66
and the West Coast,
but in these prayer lines
00:25:31.69\00:25:34.60
we mostly have parents,
parents that are pleading,
00:25:34.63\00:25:38.20
parents that are
fasting and praying on behalf
00:25:38.23\00:25:40.64
of their
children and loved ones.
00:25:40.67\00:25:42.40
And you know what?
00:25:42.44\00:25:43.77
Parents, I didn't know
this, but parents struggle
00:25:43.81\00:25:45.87
with a deeper
sense of guilt and shame
00:25:45.91\00:25:48.04
than even people that are
LGBT, because now everyone's
00:25:48.08\00:25:50.48
embracing it and claiming it.
00:25:50.51\00:25:52.81
But when the
parents come together,
00:25:52.85\00:25:55.15
woo, some of them now
have become best friends.
00:25:55.18\00:25:57.92
They realize that
we've created a community now
00:25:57.95\00:26:00.12
where people can
come without shame,
00:26:00.16\00:26:02.06
without condemnation, and
they can find encouragement
00:26:02.09\00:26:05.59
and support, you
know, people that they,
00:26:05.63\00:26:08.96
that know exactly
what they're going through,
00:26:09.00\00:26:10.83
things that they can
share their, their heartaches
00:26:10.87\00:26:13.17
and also the victories.
00:26:13.20\00:26:14.54
Yeah, and that's
extremely important is to have
00:26:14.57\00:26:16.94
that support group,
to have that support is,
00:26:16.97\00:26:19.54
is crucial.
00:26:19.57\00:26:21.38
You know, I want to put up your
contact information right now.
00:26:21.41\00:26:23.98
And if you would just
read that because somebody out
00:26:24.01\00:26:26.38
there that's gonna want
to get in touch with you,
00:26:26.41\00:26:28.05
maybe they need help.
00:26:28.08\00:26:29.42
Maybe they're
struggling with something
00:26:29.45\00:26:30.79
and they want to reach you,
00:26:30.82\00:26:32.15
or maybe they
want to support you.
00:26:32.19\00:26:33.52
So if you could just
read your contact information
00:26:33.56\00:26:35.62
that would be great.
00:26:35.66\00:26:36.99
Sure.
00:26:37.03\00:26:38.36
Coming Out Ministries,
we're located at PO Box 107,
00:26:38.39\00:26:42.53
Tilly, Arkansas.
That's Tilly, Arkansas 72679.
00:26:42.56\00:26:48.10
If you want to email, or
if you want to contact us,
00:26:48.14\00:26:50.54
you go to
comingoutministries.org
00:26:50.57\00:26:52.91
On our website we
have powerful resources.
00:26:52.94\00:26:55.94
We have our movie
Journey Interrupted,
00:26:55.98\00:26:58.31
which you can watch for
free in 12 different languages.
00:26:58.35\00:27:01.08
At comingoutministries.org
00:27:01.12\00:27:02.45
you can also find
powerful testimonies,
00:27:02.48\00:27:06.09
resources, books, videotapes,
music, all kinds of things.
00:27:06.12\00:27:10.16
We have a free library there.
00:27:10.19\00:27:11.93
We have different tabs to
address the different issues
00:27:11.96\00:27:15.16
that you may want
information on as well as
00:27:15.20\00:27:18.17
if you want to
email us, you can go to
00:27:18.20\00:27:19.77
admin@comingoutministries.org
00:27:19.80\00:27:22.90
and we can move
your prayer requests.
00:27:22.94\00:27:24.74
We can answer your
questions and send you any kind
00:27:24.77\00:27:27.34
of resources that you may need.
00:27:27.38\00:27:28.91
Thank you,
Jason. You're welcome.
00:27:28.94\00:27:30.75
Thank you, Mike.
That is beautiful.
00:27:30.78\00:27:32.51
And I'm so glad that
you have those resources
00:27:32.55\00:27:35.42
available to the public
and that you're going out,
00:27:35.45\00:27:38.42
you're being transparent
and you're sharing with them.
00:27:38.45\00:27:41.56
You know, that they
can gain the victory.
00:27:41.59\00:27:44.43
They don't have to be
stuck in that lifestyle.
00:27:44.46\00:27:46.56
And so if you're out there
00:27:46.59\00:27:48.00
and you're
listening to this right now,
00:27:48.03\00:27:49.40
know that God
wants to deliver you
00:27:49.43\00:27:51.43
from whatever you are
being held and bondage by.
00:27:51.47\00:27:55.44
Until next time, God bless you.
00:27:55.47\00:27:57.24