Are you having
trouble navigating
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through the storms of your life?
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Well, stay tuned to
meet a man that can point you
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in the right direction.
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My name is Yvonne Shelton,
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report.
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My guest today is
Pastor Ron Woolsey,
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co-founder and speaker
of Coming Out Ministries.
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He's authored several
books as a concert musician,
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and is here to
discuss his latest book,
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"Navigating the Storms."
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Welcome to Urban
Report, Pastor Ron.
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Let's do a fist bump.
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All right.
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Good to be back
on the set with you.
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Oh, it's so great
to be with family.
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Always fun.
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Yeah, always fun. Thank you.
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It's always great to
have you because you just...
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I just love what you
and your team stand for
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with Coming Out Ministries.
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It is such a, an
amazing, amazing ministry.
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Tell us about
Coming Out Ministries
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and tell us about your journey?
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Okay, there were several of us
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working
independently in ministry,
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individually,
sharing our stories
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around the
country in various places
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around the world.
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I come out of the gay culture
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converted from
that 29 years ago now.
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I've been married 28 years.
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We have children
and grandchildren.
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The Lord is good. Amen.
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But, you know, the common
myth is once gay always gay.
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It only takes one
person to disprove that myth.
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But fortunately,
I'm not the only one.
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We are finding
people all over the world
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that have that same
experience of victory in Jesus.
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And several of us
heard about each other.
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We decided to meet up
together at a camp meeting.
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So Cal California 10
years ago this month,
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and I was doing music
there and speaking there.
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And we all got together
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and talked about our experiences
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and how we were working
in ministry individually.
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And we realized, you
know, we probably could make
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more of an impact
as a joint ministry
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than we each one
can individually.
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So we came out
of that camp meeting
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as Coming Out Ministries.
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Wow, what a blessing.
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And since then, how
long have you been together?
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Ten years.
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We just had a
10 year anniversary
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last weekend,
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we did an online retreat.
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We had like 1,100 people
tuning in to our program,
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yeah, celebrating our
10th year anniversary.
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Oh, that's beautiful, beautiful.
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You know, it's so
interesting to me that
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in our culture today,
there's so much emphasis
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is being placed on
you're born that way.
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And if you're born that
way, if you're born gay,
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you can't change that,
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no more than you
can change your race.
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And so you're
telling us that that is not
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a scientific
assumption that that is,
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that there is true that
you are not born that way.
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Right. That is a
political assumption.
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Uh-huh.
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And the one reason we
know that that cannot be true.
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The Bible doesn't
condemn anybody for their race,
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or their gender, their height,
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maybe their weight, you know,
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but things that are unchangeable
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that we're born
with a genetic set
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we're born with and so forth.
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But God does
condemn homosexuality,
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among a whole list of things.
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I've written it up
all of the abominations
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in the Bible,
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and homosexuality is only one.
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And, Yvonne, the very
fact that He condemns it
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tells me He's got an answer.
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He's not going
to condemn something
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that He doesn't
have an answer for.
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That's right.
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What kind of a God would He
be if He points out something
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that cannot be changed,
and then condemns you for it?
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Exactly.
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And the whole idea of,
you know, the abomination.
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I know that there
are certain people
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who feel as though
they are the abomination.
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That's not what the Word says,
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the practice is the abomination,
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not the person.
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Right.
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And I think that, so
often people feel condemned
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by that and
condemned by Christians
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who don't know how
to treat them and love.
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How do you treat a person
who is in the gay culture?
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How do you treat them
and let them know what,
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you know, what
this is still sin.
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How do you navigate that?
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Well, as a
Christian, we follow Christ.
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We follow His example.
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And so we look in
the Word, you know,
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how did Jesus deal with sinners?
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He mingled with them.
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He never
participated in their sin,
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that He didn't condemn them.
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He showed compassion
without condemnation.
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He never
compromised His principles
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and His behavior,
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but He showed great compassion.
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Several years ago,
Shawn Boonstra and I
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did a series
together for It is Written
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called "Compassion
without Compromise."
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And I think about the
text where Jesus was talking
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to Mary after she
was brought to Him
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because of her adultery.
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And He said,
"Neither do I condemn thee
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as compassion.
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Go and sin no more."
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That's without compromise.
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So good balance there.
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And so we need to be the same.
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If we truly love gay people
and we do, and praise God,
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we do because I used to be one.
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And I enjoyed
being loved, you know.
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And if we love them,
we're not going to lie to them.
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We can very
compassionately share the truth.
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It's up to everyone
to choose for themselves,
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whether to follow truth or not.
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But we can be
loving and compassionate
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and still be solidly biblical.
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Yes.
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It's not being fair to them,
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to leave them where they are.
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It's not our
job to convict them.
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But it's our job to
share the tools for victory.
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And so, the whole
idea of loving people,
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and you brought this out
in one of our conversations
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before that, how
do you love people?
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You love them by
being honest with them,
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telling them the truth.
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Well, I think, Yvonne,
there are two kinds of love.
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There's a cheap love,
which is an indulgent love,
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which is, I don't
want to be bothered,
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I'll just love you down
the Broadway to destruction.
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I love you all the way,
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you're still going to be
destroyed but I love you.
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But that's not a genuine love.
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Jesus demonstrated His love
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that He was
willing to give His life
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to save the
person that He loved.
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So I think Jesus' kind
of love is the love that
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will love people into
and up along the narrow way
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which leads unto eternal life,
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rather than the easy,
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cheap love which is
love the people as they are
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and leaves them there.
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Yes, yes.
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And that's key.
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He loves us wherever we are,
but He doesn't leave us there.
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Right. He loves us too
much to leave us in our misery.
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Yes.
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Thing that is we don't
always know we're miserable.
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If misery is all
we've ever known,
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that's our normal.
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We may not even
know we're miserable,
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but Jesus says all.
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Well, it's like His
letter to the Laodiceans.
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You think you're
rich, increase in goods,
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and have need of nothing.
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And He says, "You
don't even have any idea
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how miserable you are
wretched, poor, blind,
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and naked, and
you have no idea."
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So that's the kind of love that
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Jesus manifests towards us.
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Yes, yes.
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And in that, you bring
out God's love in this book.
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What inspired you to
write Navigating the Storms?
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And you've
written other books too?
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Yes. Why this one?
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Well, you know, this
program is called Urban Report.
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Right. Right.
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And so we don't have
to look very far, Yvonne,
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to see all of the turmoil
in the urban communities today.
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Correct.
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We see violence and
bloodshed and mayhem,
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and looting and rioting.
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And it's like the whole world
is embroiled in the storms,
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the convulsive storms of chaos,
and rebellion, and confusion.
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And that is also typical
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of what's going on
in the spiritual world,
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in the social world,
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and, of course, our
ministry dealing so much
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with the LGBT issue.
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It's involved, involving
the sexual world as well.
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And so you notice that the
name of the book is Navigating
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the Storms of
Contemporary Sexuality,
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Identity, and Love.
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And the reason for
writing the book is because
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there are so
many voices out there
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that are dealing with this issue
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that are using the
cheap love approach,
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rather than the tough
love or godly love approach.
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And so we're
getting mixed signals.
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And we see
polarization in the world,
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polarization in
the political world,
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in the spiritual world,
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in the church, and
these two sides are,
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well, one approach
is to look at the Bible
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through the lens
of today's culture
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and interpret it that way.
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The other approach is
to look at today's culture
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through the lens of Scripture.
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And so you see, they
don't communicate very well,
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because they have a
different rule of faith
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and practice.
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And this is what we're
seeing in the Christian world
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is conflicting messages,
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where it's easier
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to just embrace the LGBT issue,
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rather than confront it
00:10:26.42\00:10:28.92
the way Jesus would
with compassion and love,
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but without compromise.
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And so, throughout
the Christian world
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we see these
contradictory approaches,
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conflicting
approaches to the LGBT issue.
00:10:40.64\00:10:45.21
And as we see this
literature going out,
00:10:45.24\00:10:49.44
to all the pastors
and all the teachers
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and seminars being conducted
to train pastors and teachers
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in what is now being
called posture shift.
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Hmm, unpack that a little
bit, what's a posture shift?
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Posture shift is
trying to help the church
00:11:02.49\00:11:05.83
change its posture on an issue.
00:11:05.86\00:11:10.93
In other words,
change its stance,
00:11:10.97\00:11:13.23
which really boils down
to lowering your standards.
00:11:13.27\00:11:18.87
And I am of the opinion based,
00:11:18.91\00:11:21.68
I think, on the Word of God,
00:11:21.71\00:11:23.48
that rather than have the
church change its posture,
00:11:23.51\00:11:27.42
we need to help the
sinner have a change of heart.
00:11:27.45\00:11:31.39
It's a totally
different approach.
00:11:31.42\00:11:33.56
One is cultural.
00:11:33.59\00:11:35.19
One is biblical.
00:11:35.22\00:11:36.66
And we're trying
to approach this issue
00:11:36.69\00:11:39.19
from a biblical standpoint.
00:11:39.23\00:11:41.13
And you notice at
the top of the book
00:11:41.16\00:11:42.73
that there's this
little description,
00:11:42.76\00:11:45.73
guided by the Word of God,
00:11:45.77\00:11:47.90
true science and research,
00:11:47.94\00:11:50.21
and the voice of
experience and reason.
00:11:50.24\00:11:53.11
There's a lot in that.
00:11:53.14\00:11:55.21
But notice, first of
all, is the Word of God.
00:11:55.24\00:11:59.41
One of my favorite
passages, Isaiah 1, "Come now,
00:11:59.45\00:12:02.32
God says, and let
us reason together."
00:12:02.35\00:12:05.35
I love that.
00:12:05.39\00:12:06.72
He wants what He asks of
us, Yvonne, is reasonable.
00:12:06.76\00:12:10.26
So that's number one.
00:12:10.29\00:12:12.69
If the science does
not match the Word of God,
00:12:12.73\00:12:15.13
then the science is faulty.
00:12:15.16\00:12:16.50
But let's go back to
reasoning because God wants us
00:12:16.53\00:12:19.80
to be able to
talk to Him about it,
00:12:19.83\00:12:23.20
to be able to receive
instruction from His Word,
00:12:23.24\00:12:26.24
which is how He can speak to us.
00:12:26.27\00:12:29.01
And so He wants us to
reason it out with Him.
00:12:29.04\00:12:33.21
Yes.
00:12:33.25\00:12:34.58
Look at it logically,
00:12:34.62\00:12:35.95
not through the lens of culture.
00:12:35.98\00:12:37.82
Because feelings and emotions.
00:12:37.85\00:12:40.56
And the word that is so
precious to me is together.
00:12:40.59\00:12:45.16
Let's reason together.
00:12:45.19\00:12:46.53
In other words, He
will listen to our logic.
00:12:46.56\00:12:49.70
He will listen to us
vent and explain and excuse
00:12:49.73\00:12:54.77
and, you know, make
all of these rationales.
00:12:54.80\00:12:58.47
But He wants to be in
on the conversation, too.
00:12:58.51\00:13:01.74
And if He listens to us,
00:13:01.78\00:13:04.05
then He expects
us to listen to Him.
00:13:04.08\00:13:05.61
Absolutely.
00:13:05.65\00:13:06.98
And who do you think
will have the best points?
00:13:07.02\00:13:08.35
He probably would
like to have the last word
00:13:08.38\00:13:10.32
and I think we're
wise to let Him have it.
00:13:10.35\00:13:13.22
Have that last word because,
I mean He is perfect wisdom.
00:13:13.25\00:13:17.13
Yes. Yes.
00:13:17.16\00:13:18.59
He's a loving
Father that created us.
00:13:18.63\00:13:22.10
He knows what is
best for what He created.
00:13:22.13\00:13:25.17
Yes, He's omniscient. Yes.
00:13:25.20\00:13:27.60
So He knows everything.
00:13:27.64\00:13:29.24
And He also knows better
than anyone how Satan rules.
00:13:29.27\00:13:33.54
And how he
attempts to use sophistry
00:13:33.58\00:13:36.48
and everything possible
to distract and destroy.
00:13:36.51\00:13:40.62
So yes, so what about the
true science and research?
00:13:40.65\00:13:44.32
What have you found with science
00:13:44.35\00:13:47.09
that that kind of supports
00:13:47.12\00:13:50.26
what the Word says
because the Word does not,
00:13:50.29\00:13:52.96
the Word stands on its own.
00:13:52.99\00:13:55.16
But many people
will use science and say,
00:13:55.20\00:13:58.60
well, the science
says da-da, da-da, da-da.
00:13:58.63\00:14:01.30
And it might be
contrary to what the Word says.
00:14:01.34\00:14:04.01
How did you
navigate through that?
00:14:04.04\00:14:06.07
We'll also we hear
this word consensus.
00:14:06.11\00:14:09.08
Hear that all the
time that the consensus
00:14:09.11\00:14:12.71
from the scientific
research is so and so.
00:14:12.75\00:14:16.25
It's not a
consensus, because scientists
00:14:16.28\00:14:21.56
change their positions.
00:14:21.59\00:14:23.36
With every generation,
00:14:23.39\00:14:24.73
you come up with a
different position.
00:14:24.76\00:14:26.09
Science is in science,
if you believe in evolution,
00:14:26.13\00:14:29.33
science is evolving, right?
00:14:29.36\00:14:31.70
Word of God is
not but science is.
00:14:31.73\00:14:35.10
And when you look
at scientific reports,
00:14:35.14\00:14:38.44
if you see something that
contradicts the Word of God,
00:14:38.47\00:14:41.54
they need to go
back to their research,
00:14:41.58\00:14:44.68
because the Word of God
is going to be the rule.
00:14:44.71\00:14:48.52
And there is a lot of science
00:14:48.55\00:14:50.89
that is coming out that
backs up the Word of God
00:14:50.92\00:14:54.16
and I really
praise the Lord for that.
00:14:54.19\00:14:57.56
But for example,
one of the myths is that
00:14:57.59\00:15:01.46
we're just born gay,
00:15:01.50\00:15:03.43
And I could have
invented that myself,
00:15:03.47\00:15:06.07
but because I use
that excuse for years,
00:15:06.10\00:15:09.07
but someone else came up with it
00:15:09.10\00:15:10.71
before I went
into the gay world.
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.51
So back in 1985,
00:15:12.54\00:15:16.34
that myth got started
with the two gentlemen
00:15:16.38\00:15:20.68
were Kirk and Madsen.
00:15:20.72\00:15:22.28
One was a psychologist
and one was a politician.
00:15:22.32\00:15:27.46
So you see... And
were they themselves gay?
00:15:28.66\00:15:30.86
Yes, gay
politics and psychology.
00:15:30.89\00:15:34.30
And the gay movement
had made so many advances
00:15:34.33\00:15:37.87
that they decided,
00:15:37.90\00:15:39.23
I mean, the
political community decided
00:15:39.27\00:15:42.60
that they wanted to
have legal minority status.
00:15:42.64\00:15:46.74
And the benefits
that come with that.
00:15:46.78\00:15:49.61
Well, one of the three criteria
00:15:49.64\00:15:51.58
is you have to be born that way.
00:15:51.61\00:15:54.05
Well, up until then,
no one really bought that.
00:15:54.08\00:15:58.22
But they decided,
if we use the media,
00:15:58.25\00:16:01.69
if we say it loudly
enough, long enough,
00:16:01.72\00:16:04.73
and frequently enough,
00:16:04.76\00:16:06.09
using every possible
means to get it out there,
00:16:06.13\00:16:09.40
eventually it will believable,
it will be believable.
00:16:09.43\00:16:13.20
And that's where we are
today, because when we go out
00:16:13.23\00:16:16.24
and have seminars in
churches and so forth,
00:16:16.27\00:16:18.81
this question always comes up.
00:16:18.84\00:16:21.31
What about those
who are just born gay?
00:16:21.34\00:16:24.08
See, it's now become believable,
00:16:24.11\00:16:27.35
even in the church.
00:16:27.38\00:16:29.25
But it was totally, it's a hoax.
00:16:29.28\00:16:31.32
It was built upon a
desire for privilege
00:16:31.35\00:16:34.82
or special treatment or
special benefits, you know.
00:16:34.86\00:16:38.19
So that's just
some of the research
00:16:38.23\00:16:39.66
that's touched on in here.
00:16:39.69\00:16:41.03
It's so
interesting to me, Pastor Ron,
00:16:41.06\00:16:43.33
how the media has
been used to promote
00:16:43.37\00:16:47.30
the idea of gay
relationships being normal,
00:16:47.34\00:16:52.74
gay relationships
being acceptable societally
00:16:52.77\00:16:57.71
and, you know, it's okay.
00:16:57.75\00:17:00.72
It's okay. That's
what the media promotes.
00:17:00.75\00:17:03.39
It's okay.
00:17:03.42\00:17:04.75
Not only is it okay, but
if you speak out against it,
00:17:04.79\00:17:08.59
not speaking out
against the people themselves,
00:17:08.62\00:17:11.06
but against the
practice, you become,
00:17:11.09\00:17:14.10
you know, they have a
label for you homophobic,
00:17:14.13\00:17:16.67
so you don't want to
talk about it being sin,
00:17:16.70\00:17:19.90
because if you talk
about it as being sin,
00:17:19.93\00:17:22.17
you are labeled
as being homophobic.
00:17:22.20\00:17:24.01
So they put you in this
little box, if you let them.
00:17:24.04\00:17:27.51
Put you in this little box
00:17:27.54\00:17:28.88
where you don't
want to say anything,
00:17:28.91\00:17:30.25
because you don't want to appear
00:17:30.28\00:17:31.91
as though you're intolerant.
00:17:31.95\00:17:33.48
And yet, you
can't say anything now.
00:17:33.52\00:17:37.45
I mean, no one can say
anything about anything,
00:17:37.49\00:17:40.22
because it's
just being suppressed.
00:17:40.26\00:17:44.16
I know when you go to do
Coming Out Ministries seminars,
00:17:44.19\00:17:48.83
you get a lot of pushback.
00:17:48.86\00:17:50.90
What kind of pushback
do you get from Christians?
00:17:50.93\00:17:54.24
Well, first of all,
if I were homophobic,
00:17:54.27\00:17:56.97
I wouldn't be in this ministry.
00:17:57.01\00:17:58.91
Right?
00:17:58.94\00:18:00.28
If I were afraid
of homosexuality,
00:18:00.31\00:18:02.81
I wouldn't be involved in it.
00:18:02.84\00:18:04.61
If I hated the gay people, I
wouldn't be involved with it.
00:18:04.65\00:18:08.82
I would just let it go.
00:18:08.85\00:18:11.65
So I came up with a better word.
00:18:11.69\00:18:13.49
I'm homoagapic.
00:18:13.52\00:18:14.99
Oh, I like that.
00:18:15.02\00:18:17.03
I love gay people. I was gay.
00:18:17.06\00:18:19.06
I know gay people. I love them.
00:18:19.09\00:18:20.80
And I want them to find the
joy that I have in my salvation
00:18:20.83\00:18:24.93
for themselves.
00:18:24.97\00:18:26.30
Yes. But yes, we get pushback.
00:18:26.33\00:18:28.24
And unfortunately, Yvonne,
00:18:28.27\00:18:31.27
a lot of our pushback
is from within the church.
00:18:31.31\00:18:34.81
Because of this
polarization, there is,
00:18:34.84\00:18:39.38
well, I'm sure there's
more than two ideologies.
00:18:39.41\00:18:41.62
But there are
two conflicting ones,
00:18:41.65\00:18:44.59
in that people
want to be saved in sin
00:18:44.62\00:18:47.99
rather than from sin.
00:18:48.02\00:18:50.09
So you see the contradiction,
the conflict there?
00:18:50.13\00:18:53.43
And so those who
want to be gay Christians,
00:18:53.46\00:18:57.13
and accept gay
Christians, they want the church
00:18:57.17\00:19:01.04
to just be loving and accepting.
00:19:01.07\00:19:03.91
That's not the gospel.
00:19:03.94\00:19:05.71
The gospel is about restoring us
00:19:05.74\00:19:08.21
to what God created us
to be in the first place.
00:19:08.24\00:19:11.68
It's a redemptive,
transforming process.
00:19:11.71\00:19:16.38
And if we're just
loved and accepted
00:19:16.42\00:19:18.72
without any
conversion without any change.
00:19:18.75\00:19:22.79
Now, every Christian
talks about being converted.
00:19:22.82\00:19:25.56
A lot of people
say, Well, I was saved.
00:19:25.59\00:19:28.06
Yeah, and they'll tell
you when they were saved.
00:19:28.10\00:19:31.40
And I have to say,
from what you know,
00:19:31.43\00:19:33.37
but they were saved
or they were converted.
00:19:33.40\00:19:36.44
The word
converted means changed.
00:19:36.47\00:19:38.51
Every Christian
that is truly converted
00:19:38.54\00:19:41.91
is truly changed.
00:19:41.94\00:19:43.68
They submit to that process.
00:19:43.71\00:19:45.61
But with the gay issue,
00:19:45.65\00:19:48.95
there is this protective
hedge about the LGBT community
00:19:48.98\00:19:52.85
for some reason that
they don't need to change.
00:19:52.89\00:19:56.73
They get a pass.
00:19:56.76\00:19:58.96
God loves them the way
they are and where they are
00:19:58.99\00:20:02.03
the way they are,
which is not true.
00:20:02.06\00:20:03.97
God loves them where they
are, but not the way they are.
00:20:04.00\00:20:08.57
He hates that sin.
00:20:08.60\00:20:11.17
So we get pushback because
00:20:11.21\00:20:14.34
there are those
that are protecting
00:20:14.38\00:20:16.51
the LGBT issue
within the church.
00:20:16.54\00:20:19.85
They don't want to be confronted
00:20:19.88\00:20:21.32
with the sin issue that it is.
00:20:21.35\00:20:24.22
Yes.
00:20:24.25\00:20:25.59
Tell us some more
about Navigating the Storms.
00:20:25.62\00:20:28.99
And what really led you
00:20:29.02\00:20:32.03
into this particular format?
00:20:32.06\00:20:35.46
Well, as a
young college student,
00:20:35.50\00:20:38.10
I took up flying.
00:20:38.13\00:20:41.00
And I started
out with airplanes,
00:20:41.04\00:20:42.84
but I ended up
later flying hang gliders.
00:20:42.87\00:20:45.71
But on my solo
cross-country flight,
00:20:45.74\00:20:48.61
I got caught in a violent storm.
00:20:48.64\00:20:50.78
And so I used that
story to start off the book.
00:20:50.81\00:20:54.52
Because I've found there
are so many object lessons
00:20:54.55\00:20:58.22
that we can find
in life's experiences,
00:20:58.25\00:21:00.66
how I got out of this storm,
00:21:00.69\00:21:02.66
and though it
threw me way off course,
00:21:02.69\00:21:05.03
I was able to reorient,
00:21:05.06\00:21:07.10
recalibrate, and fly
safely to my destination.
00:21:07.13\00:21:11.37
And so that's the story
that starts off the book.
00:21:11.40\00:21:17.11
But then the object
lessons that I found in there
00:21:18.41\00:21:20.81
about trusting your instructor,
00:21:20.84\00:21:24.41
trusting your, excuse me,
00:21:24.45\00:21:26.18
trusting your instruction,
knowing your limitations,
00:21:26.21\00:21:31.32
charting your course,
using reliable equipment,
00:21:31.35\00:21:37.03
and seeking assistance,
you know, air traffic control.
00:21:37.06\00:21:41.66
When you're flying,
you're dependent upon
00:21:41.70\00:21:44.03
air traffic control many times.
00:21:44.07\00:21:46.13
And I think that's a
wonderful illustration
00:21:46.17\00:21:48.70
about our relationship
00:21:48.74\00:21:50.71
with the Lord
seeking assistance.
00:21:50.74\00:21:53.21
And so I go through all
of these different steps
00:21:53.24\00:21:55.24
that I went through and apply it
00:21:55.28\00:21:57.65
to navigating the storms
of contemporary sexuality,
00:21:57.68\00:22:01.58
identity and love.
00:22:01.62\00:22:03.08
Yes, it's wonderful.
00:22:03.12\00:22:04.45
And you also have
a pamphlet in here.
00:22:04.49\00:22:09.39
Well, it didn't come with it.
00:22:09.42\00:22:11.26
But you also have a
pamphlet that's free,
00:22:11.29\00:22:14.53
called Turbulence Ahead.
00:22:14.56\00:22:16.60
Right. Tell us about that?
00:22:16.63\00:22:18.87
Well, I...
00:22:18.90\00:22:20.44
In this little pamphlet,
I address maybe seven points
00:22:20.47\00:22:24.81
that are being
pushed with this issue
00:22:24.84\00:22:28.98
of trying to get the
church to change its posture.
00:22:29.01\00:22:31.31
And the first one I mentioned
about changing our position
00:22:32.71\00:22:35.68
rather than the sinner changing,
00:22:35.72\00:22:37.55
having a change of heart
00:22:37.59\00:22:40.22
that some of these and I
know we don't have much time,
00:22:40.26\00:22:44.49
but learning to love and nurture
00:22:44.53\00:22:47.23
our gay young people.
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.03
And that's where I address
the issue of what kind of love.
00:22:49.06\00:22:52.33
Do we love them down the
Broadway by just pacifying,
00:22:52.37\00:22:56.24
embracing them
and not showing them
00:22:56.27\00:22:58.31
that they need
a savior from sin?
00:22:58.34\00:23:00.11
Or do we love them
into the narrow way
00:23:00.14\00:23:02.61
that leads to life?
00:23:02.64\00:23:05.61
And another thing
that is being taught
00:23:05.65\00:23:08.98
to pastors and
teachers and within the church
00:23:09.02\00:23:11.35
is that it's not
our responsibility
00:23:11.39\00:23:13.62
to try to change one's
LGBT orientation or identity.
00:23:13.66\00:23:19.03
That's where we
talk about conversion.
00:23:19.06\00:23:21.06
Everyone coming to Christ goes
through conversion or change.
00:23:21.10\00:23:25.63
I like this quote,
00:23:25.67\00:23:27.57
is commentary on
2 Corinthians 5:17.
00:23:27.60\00:23:30.74
"Therefore, if
any man be in Christ,
00:23:30.77\00:23:32.31
he is a new creature."
00:23:32.34\00:23:34.64
This commentary
that is so beautiful
00:23:34.68\00:23:37.15
is that the new birth
consists in having new motives,
00:23:37.18\00:23:40.38
new tastes, new tendencies,
and a genuine conversion
00:23:40.42\00:23:44.22
changes hereditary
00:23:44.25\00:23:46.25
and cultivated
tendencies to wrong.
00:23:46.29\00:23:48.62
That's what conversion is.
00:23:48.66\00:23:49.99
So we address that.
00:23:50.03\00:23:52.29
Another point that's
brought out as God loves
00:23:52.33\00:23:55.46
LGBT people unconditionally.
00:23:55.50\00:23:59.17
And I have to stress the
fact that God loves everyone.
00:23:59.20\00:24:01.84
He loves the lost.
00:24:01.87\00:24:03.84
Not everyone will
be in the kingdom,
00:24:03.87\00:24:06.81
not everyone
that says, Lord, Lord
00:24:06.84\00:24:09.28
will enter the
kingdom, and that's Christians.
00:24:09.31\00:24:11.18
Yes.
00:24:11.21\00:24:12.98
Another point
that is pointed out
00:24:13.01\00:24:15.18
in so much of the
literature today is that
00:24:15.22\00:24:17.89
gay Christians may
be deeply religious.
00:24:17.92\00:24:21.66
And, you know,
I think logically,
00:24:21.69\00:24:23.79
I think if I were not a pastor,
I'd probably be an attorney.
00:24:23.83\00:24:28.10
Because I like logical thinking,
00:24:28.13\00:24:29.93
I think wait a minute.
00:24:29.96\00:24:31.50
Gay Christians may
be deeply religious.
00:24:31.53\00:24:34.30
Aren't pagans deeply religious?
00:24:34.34\00:24:36.71
Aren't militant
Islamic extremists
00:24:36.74\00:24:40.21
deeply religious?
00:24:40.24\00:24:41.78
But is that enough?
00:24:41.81\00:24:43.35
There has to be more to it.
00:24:43.38\00:24:45.18
So we explore that.
00:24:45.21\00:24:46.61
People can
choose their behaviors
00:24:48.08\00:24:49.58
but not their identity.
00:24:49.62\00:24:51.42
That is so unscriptural.
00:24:51.45\00:24:54.19
Satan wants to
brand us with his identity
00:24:55.36\00:24:58.23
by identifying us by the
nature of our temptations.
00:24:58.26\00:25:02.20
But Jesus was
tempted in all points
00:25:02.23\00:25:04.30
like as we are yet without sin.
00:25:04.33\00:25:06.23
We don't label Jesus
00:25:06.27\00:25:07.94
by the nature
of His temptations.
00:25:07.97\00:25:09.50
That's true.
00:25:09.54\00:25:10.87
We shouldn't identify ourselves.
00:25:10.91\00:25:13.64
We identify by the
direction we want to go,
00:25:13.68\00:25:16.51
not the direction we pulled.
00:25:16.54\00:25:18.41
It's like in the
airplane, tailwinds, headwinds,
00:25:18.45\00:25:22.38
crosswinds, violent storms,
00:25:22.42\00:25:23.75
they'll blow you
all over the place.
00:25:23.79\00:25:25.55
But a pilot is
not going to allow
00:25:25.59\00:25:27.69
the weather conditions
00:25:27.72\00:25:29.06
to determine his destination
00:25:29.09\00:25:31.76
or his destination
will be a fatal one, right?
00:25:31.79\00:25:35.06
Yes, yes.
00:25:35.10\00:25:36.43
So anyway, those are
just some of the points
00:25:37.90\00:25:40.97
that are brought out.
00:25:41.00\00:25:42.34
It's really good.
00:25:42.37\00:25:43.71
In this flyer it's very briefly,
00:25:43.74\00:25:45.27
but more so in the book, yeah.
00:25:45.31\00:25:47.64
How can people reach you?
00:25:47.68\00:25:49.74
We need to put your address
up on this, on the screen,
00:25:49.78\00:25:53.05
because people want to,
00:25:53.08\00:25:55.18
I know they're going
to want to get this book.
00:25:55.22\00:25:57.29
This is a book to share.
00:25:57.32\00:25:58.69
This is a book to
read yourself and to share
00:25:58.72\00:26:03.12
is really, really good
and so well put together.
00:26:03.16\00:26:06.16
Thank you. So well put together.
00:26:06.19\00:26:07.70
So let's put your
address up on the screen.
00:26:07.73\00:26:10.20
And tell us your
address please, Pastor.
00:26:10.23\00:26:12.43
All right, our address.
00:26:12.47\00:26:14.10
And for some of you
00:26:14.14\00:26:15.47
who are familiar
with our ministry,
00:26:15.50\00:26:16.84
we have a new address.
00:26:16.87\00:26:18.21
It's Coming Out Ministries,
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PO Box 107, In Tilly, Arkansas,
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the heart of the country 72679.
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Again, PO Box 107.
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Tilly, Arkansas 72679.
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And your website?
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Yes. And our
website is very easy.
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It's
ComingOutMinistries.org. Right.
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And this book and
all of our resources
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are available
through our website.
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And people can call you as well.
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Yes, if they want
to call, 870-504-0173.
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That's great. That's great.
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Because I know people are going
to want to invite you to come.
00:26:58.11\00:27:01.38
One of the things
that you do is you,
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you talk about victory
and that's such a blessing.
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Thank you so much
for being with us today.
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Oh, thank you
for this opportunity.
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Always a delight.
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Well, thank you so much.
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We appreciate you
and all that you do
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because it is not easy
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to be going against the culture
of the tide of the culture.
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And so we thank you so much.
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And we thank you for tuning in.
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Order this book,
support this ministry,
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send them a donation.
00:27:32.95\00:27:34.72
They really
need some assistance.
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They need some
assistance from you
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because it's hard to
go up against the culture.
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And so they get some resistance
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but, you know, the
Lord is in control.
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Thank you so much
for being with us.
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Join us next time
because you know what?
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It just wouldn't be
the same without you.
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Amen.
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