Participants:
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000272A
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00:01 Stay tuned to meet two men
00:02 who are not afraid to speak truth to power. 00:04 My name is Jason Bradley. 00:05 And I'm Yvonne Lewis-Shelton, 00:07 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:35 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report. 00:37 Our guests today are no strangers 00:39 to Dare to Dream or 3ABN. 00:41 We have Mike Carducci and Pastor Ron Woolsey 00:45 from Coming Out Ministries. 00:46 Hey, it's good to see you. Welcome. 00:47 I would reach over there, but, you know... 00:49 I'll reach. 00:50 You are a little far. A little far. 00:52 Welcome. Thank you. 00:55 So everybody's seen, well, not everybody, 00:58 but a lot of people have seen you on Pure Choices, 01:01 I mean, we've seen you on Urban Report, 01:05 but you guys have some ministry updates. 01:07 But before we jump into that, we'd like to reestablish 01:12 what Coming Out Ministries is all about. 01:16 So Coming Out Ministries started eight years ago. 01:19 I remember that I read articles 01:22 and I'd heard about these other people 01:24 that had come out of homosexuality 01:26 back into church culture which shocked me, 01:28 I thought I was the only one. 01:30 And Ron was speaking in SoCal Camp Meeting 01:33 and two of the girls that we started with 01:36 were also living in California. 01:37 So it was determined that that would be the place 01:40 that we would meet. 01:41 We got together, five individuals, 01:44 we even got our testimonies recorded while we were there, 01:47 and as I heard their testimonies 01:48 and met these people, 01:50 the comment was made that, 01:52 "You know, one testimony is good, 01:53 but imagine five together." 01:55 So that's how Coming Out Ministries came together. 01:57 Wow. It's great. 01:59 One of the things that I love about your ministry is that 02:01 even though you all came out from gay culture, 02:06 it's so much broader than that. 02:08 You really deal with sin and redemption from sin. 02:13 So it's not just homosexual sin, 02:16 it's heterosexual, promiscuity, 02:18 pornography, all of those things 02:20 because you realize that sin is sin, 02:24 and we are all struggling. 02:25 So your ministry is just so much broader than that 02:29 but you are so transparent with your testimonies. 02:33 I think it would be good for those 02:34 who are not familiar with your testimonies, 02:37 if you would just share your journey a bit 02:39 with our viewers who have not met you before. 02:43 Well, you know, 02:44 another interesting factor in all of this was that 02:47 none of us were sought out by the church. 02:52 We were led by the Holy Spirit and through a lot of prayer 02:56 to do our own study and research, 02:58 and we came into the phase 03:03 not on our own, the Lord let us in, 03:05 but it was not a church effort 03:08 which I think, I found that to be very fascinating 03:11 as we all compared notes, 03:14 but I was one who had been raised in the church. 03:18 I was a very spiritual child, and teenager, and young person. 03:23 But I had been sexually molested 03:25 as a four-year old little boy on the farm, 03:28 and then I was repeatedly molested 03:30 throughout my grade school years. 03:34 I was, I think pushed away from the male gender, 03:40 you know, the male gender in my peer group 03:43 through mocking, and teasing, and molestation, 03:46 and so I was very vulnerable. 03:50 So when someone showed me acceptance and affection 03:55 from my same gender, even though it was perverted, 03:59 it was better than none at all. 04:01 I was very vulnerable to that, and I think 04:03 that may be true with a lot of people. 04:06 But I thought at one point, because I was spiritual 04:12 and I wrestled against my inclinations, 04:15 I decided if I would just get married, 04:17 it would take care of everything. 04:19 I was so intelligent. 04:21 And I thought, you know, marriage would be the end 04:24 or it would be the solution that I have to warn anyone 04:27 who is watching out there, that's not marriage, 04:30 marriage is not the solution to any problem. 04:33 I soon realized that I had made a terrible mistake, 04:36 even though my wife was a Christian, 04:38 and I chose to have a Christian wife, 04:41 Christian home, and to make Christian babies, 04:44 have a Christian education, all of those things, 04:47 it only added to my confusion. 04:49 So I ended up, yes... 04:51 I'm sorry. 04:52 I didn't mean to interrupt you, but were you then, 04:55 at this point in your journey when you got married, 04:57 were you not spiritual at that point, 05:00 were you trying to cover up the gay, your gayness, 05:05 so to speak, where were you spiritually? 05:07 I was still very spiritual but I was conflicted. 05:11 I didn't have answers for my struggle. 05:14 You know, I went through college 05:17 and earned a degree in theology. 05:20 Also, I worked on premed, 05:22 I wanted to be a medical missionary. 05:25 What I got out of my education did not give me my answers, 05:29 and see, I think this is a common thing 05:32 that we all shared growing up in the church, 05:35 there was no discussion about homosexuality, 05:37 there were no resources, 05:40 we didn't know of anyone we could trust, 05:44 we felt isolated, as he mentioned, all alone. 05:47 So you don't dare reveal something 05:49 that is so shameful and taboo. 05:51 And I hadn't even done anything. 05:53 It was just that that struggle. 05:56 But I ended bringing my marriage 05:58 to an end eventually 06:00 because I just gave up. 06:01 I'd prayed that God would take the gay away, He didn't. 06:05 I got angry with God, frustrated, 06:07 went into the gay life. 06:09 But after many years in the gay life 06:13 and having praying parents and friends 06:16 and that kind of intersession. 06:19 The Holy Spirit really worked to draw me back, 06:22 and I began to study the Word of God. 06:26 I remember picking up Steps to Christ 06:28 with a margarita in one hand, a cigarette in the other, 06:31 and reading page one Steps to Christ. 06:34 And that didn't go on for very long 06:36 but to make that part of the testimony short, 06:41 I found everything I needed 06:42 in my own personal study of God's Word. 06:46 There's power in the Word, re-creative and creative power. 06:50 "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made, 06:52 all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." 06:54 Breath of His mouth, yes. 06:57 And so that same re-creative power is in the Word, 07:03 is exceeding great and precious promises of God. 07:05 Yeah. 07:06 You know, Pastor Ron, that's so important. 07:09 What you said earlier about 07:10 you ask God to take the gay away, 07:13 you tried to pray the gay away, and it just wasn't happening. 07:18 You know, I think that 07:19 a lot of people find themselves in that situation 07:23 where they are trying to pray the gay away 07:26 but they are not doing anything. 07:28 Also, they are not studying, they are not, you know, 07:30 they are just saying, "Lord, take this away from me." 07:32 But there's nothing else going on to kind of 07:36 feed the mind and spirit. 07:38 And so I think that's very interesting 07:40 because you prayed about it, and you weren't, at that point, 07:45 getting the results that you were hoping to get 07:48 just from prayer. 07:49 I was looking for a quick fix. 07:51 "God, You take care of it." 07:52 But He wants us to exercise our faith. 07:55 When He says, "My grace is sufficient for you, " 07:58 that means, He gives us all a measure of strength. 08:01 And as we exercise that strength, 08:04 just like in a gymnasium, when you exercise, 08:07 you get stronger. 08:08 When I read Jesus suffered being tempted, 08:11 that means, He struggled. 08:12 Struggle makes you strong. 08:14 It's when you don't struggle, that you fail, 08:17 you give in, you become weak. 08:19 And so I learned through my own personal study, 08:23 and how to apply the tools that are in the Word of God. 08:27 And 27 years ago, I came out of it. 08:31 Been married now for 26 years, 08:34 and we've made more Christian babies. 08:38 You know, it's been a wonderful life, 08:39 the last 27 years. 08:41 Praise the Lord. 08:42 Having been on both sides, I can truly say, 08:45 "Father knows best. 08:46 God's way is the better way." 08:48 It's good. 08:50 I loved how you said you learned 08:51 how to apply the tools from Word of God, 08:54 because, you know, knowledge without application is useless, 08:57 pretty much. 08:58 You see, I had that knowledge with my degree in theology. 09:01 But I didn't know how to apply it. 09:03 I really didn't have a good understanding, 09:05 but when I started studying for myself 09:07 instead of where the professors, 09:10 has made a big difference. 09:11 Yeah, yeah. 09:13 And so how did you end up coming to the Lord? 09:18 Well, I studied my way out of the gay life. 09:23 Wasn't it the Left Behind series? 09:28 My parents, when they would visit, 09:32 they knew that I was... 09:33 Well, I was not only labeled as unchangeable, 09:36 I've become unreachable, and they knew 09:38 they couldn't share things with me. 09:39 So every time, they left to go back home 09:43 on the other side of the country, 09:44 they left things behind, 09:45 and I'd find them under my pillow 09:47 and my bed and things like that, 09:49 and I called that my Left Behind series. 09:51 And a big beautiful Bible, all kinds of wonderful books, 09:54 you know, the Spirit of Prophecy books. 09:56 And because I wouldn't go to anyone, 10:02 the Lord just filled my home with everything I needed. 10:06 That's where I found the answers. 10:08 That's awesome. 10:09 It's interesting because that's one of the things 10:11 that we've really liked to point out 10:13 is that we weren't praying for ourselves, 10:15 we wanted nothing to do with God. 10:17 But because somebody else was praying for us, 10:19 each and every member of Coming Out Ministries 10:21 had somebody praying for them. 10:23 And we've recognized the power of those prayers. 10:26 You know, living in a gay culture 10:28 for over 20 years never using protection ever, 10:31 being a sexual addict, 10:32 I should have died 10:34 with some of the partners that I was with. 10:35 They'd be dead three months later 10:36 and yet I lived. 10:38 You know, and then to not even have HIV, 10:40 again, it was the prayers of my sisters 10:43 that were praying for me. 10:44 I'm sure that is the reason why I'm still here but... 10:48 I need to stop you on that 10:49 because that is a super important point. 10:52 If you know someone who is in the gay culture, 10:54 or has any sin that they cannot seem to shake, 10:58 you pray for them, you intercede for them. 11:00 They might not even feel the need to pray about it. 11:04 But you intercede for them because that intercession, 11:07 your parents, your sisters, that made all the difference. 11:11 It's interesting because you know, oftentimes, 11:13 people want to just talk about people 11:16 as opposed to acting... 11:17 That is right. On what they know. 11:19 You know, don't just talk about people, pray for them. 11:22 Do something to be a blessing to them, 11:25 to show God's love and share God's love with them. 11:30 Don't be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution. 11:33 Yes, it's good. 11:34 Well, there is a catchphrase in the world community saying, 11:39 you know, "Can you pray the gay way?" 11:40 And they've really taken that and run with it, 11:42 and, you know, they show that all these people have prayed 11:45 and nothing happened. 11:46 But I think that Ron really touched on it. 11:48 What God's looking for is a relationship, you know? 11:51 And it's not just the faith part that, 11:54 of course, He wants us to exercise that faith, 11:56 but how do we exercise that faith 11:58 unless we have a relationship with Him. 12:00 And I think that that's one of the profound ways 12:02 that God suffers long is that He's willing for us 12:06 to fall down until we get it. 12:09 Well, knowing that it's going to cost Him, 12:11 He had to struggle and pay for that on the cross for me. 12:14 But He would rather me struggle in that, 12:16 falling and getting back up, 12:18 in the process of gaining the victory of that, 12:21 rather than to not have a relationship with me. 12:24 You know, God could just wave a magic wand 12:25 over your head and just go, bing, 12:27 and all your problems are gone. 12:28 It's true. 12:29 Right, which would really be nice, 12:31 but, you know, it's that process, 12:33 like you said, the struggle, 12:35 you know, the chicken 12:36 that has to peck its way out of the shell, 12:37 otherwise, it's not going to live, 12:39 you know, it gains strength by that process. 12:41 So I think that each one of us recognizes 12:45 that prayer is part of the solution, 12:48 it's not this, you know, you just pray one time, 12:50 and it's gone. 12:51 Prayer is really about encouraging the relationship 12:54 that I think that God wants with each one of us 12:56 which took a long time for me to learn. 12:58 Coming from sexual addiction, I didn't know 13:00 how to relate to anyone on an intimate level, 13:03 it was all physical. 13:04 And then, after 20 years of that, 13:06 I really didn't even have any value for people 13:09 other than what they meant to me physically. 13:12 And so God's amazing. 13:15 And that began with Jesus Christ. 13:16 And as He encouraged that relationship in me, 13:19 I started to realize that, "Wow. 13:21 He was more faithful to me than I was to Him." 13:23 But He was hanging in there. Yes. 13:24 He wasn't leaving, He wasn't going anywhere. 13:27 And, you know what? 13:28 That kept me hanging on. 13:29 There were many times I wanted to just turn 13:31 and run the other way and just say, 13:33 "This is too hard. I'm not doing this." 13:34 But His faithfulness to me, His encouragement, 13:38 and the fact that He wasn't going anywhere, 13:40 that's really what helped to teach me what true intimacy 13:43 was all about. 13:44 Isn't that interesting how, 13:47 you know, we think about how awesome God is, 13:50 how He's the creator of the universe, 13:52 how He spoke the world into existence, 13:57 and yet, He wants a relationship with us. 14:00 It's like, who are we 14:02 that He would want that relationship with us, 14:04 and yet He does, and He does so much 14:07 that He is willing to let us... 14:10 When a baby is learning to walk, 14:13 the baby falls and gets up, keeps walking, falls, gets up. 14:17 That's our journey as Christians. 14:19 We fall, we get up. 14:21 You know, we fall down but we get up. 14:24 You know, and that is our journey. 14:26 And I think we don't need to be so hard 14:32 on our brothers and sisters 14:33 who are struggling with things that we can see. 14:36 A lot of times, you know, we can't see those attitudes, 14:39 that covetousness, or pride, and, you know, selfishness. 14:43 We don't necessarily see those, 14:45 but we can see the fruits of that, 14:49 and we can see that, 14:50 you know, people are dealing with issues 14:54 like homosexuality, bisexuality. 14:57 And so the thing for us to do is 14:59 to love people through, 15:01 but let them know that there is a better way, 15:04 that God has a better plan. 15:06 Yeah. 15:07 How would you compare your life now 15:10 with your life then? 15:14 Both of you. Great question. 15:16 This is Urban Report, so let me make it real. 15:19 I didn't think that it was possible 15:21 to live without sex. 15:22 And I remember thinking to myself that 15:25 that's just unrealistic, nobody could do that. 15:27 And what's so amazing is it's been 18 years now 15:30 that I have been walking with Jesus Christ, 15:32 and at night, when I go to sleep, 15:34 Jesus is the last person that I speak to, 15:36 and I had no idea 15:38 that Jesus would be better than sex. 15:40 And that may not even sound right to anybody else, 15:43 but I understand that to me in that, "Wow, 15:46 how profound that the peace of God, 15:48 the abiding peace of Christ is much better 15:50 than anything that I have ever experienced." 15:53 You know, there's a verse in Proverbs, 15:55 and it talks about the ways of men, 15:57 you know, lead to death, right? 15:59 But it talks about how, even in the next verse, 16:01 it talks about how even in laughter, 16:05 the heart is sorrowful, and that's the gay life. 16:07 You know, if I didn't meet somebody 16:09 when I was out at the bars 16:11 or whatever and I come home alone, 16:12 I had to make sure that the music was on, 16:14 and that I went to bed, and, you know, 16:17 got up the next morning and turned everything back on 16:19 because any moment of silence was just a constant reminder 16:23 of the loneliness that was in that life. 16:25 And I think to myself, people say, 16:26 "Well, aren't you dating? Aren't you married?" 16:28 You know, and I'm not. 16:30 You know, and yet, "Wow, 16:31 I've been more alone in relationships 16:34 in the gay culture than I ever was, 16:36 you know, even being a single man 16:37 with Jesus Christ." 16:39 So that's a profound awakening for me is that 16:43 the God is much better, much deeper, 16:45 and much broader than just sex. 16:46 Yes, yes. 16:48 What about your difference now? 16:49 Well, I think we have to acknowledge 16:52 that sin is attractive. 16:54 Otherwise, why would anyone be tempted by it. 16:57 Right. Amen. 16:58 And so Satan is a master at luring us with that, 17:02 you know, forbidden fruit. 17:05 And so I would acknowledge that in the gay life 17:09 there was a lot of fun, a lot of excitement, 17:12 a lot of self-gratification, a lot of self, 17:16 but in between, 17:18 there are lots of times of loneliness, and despair, 17:22 and depression, rejection. 17:24 But then that's offset again by more stimulating activities 17:28 and parties and all of that. 17:30 But what I have found 17:34 on this side of the equation is the Lord. 17:37 What I have now is joy. 17:42 I didn't find joy in the gay life. 17:44 What I enjoyed was things that were fleeting, 17:48 joy is lasting. 17:49 So I have joy, I have peace, I have assurance, 17:54 I have a loving wife, 17:57 a relationship that is... 18:01 I'm never afraid that I'll come home 18:03 and she'll be gone. 18:05 And you know, in our ministry, we travel a great deal. 18:09 I pastor two churches at home, I have a church district. 18:12 But I also am gone exactly half of the time, 18:16 26 weeks out of the year, I'm away from home. 18:19 My wife has never even hinted that she distrusts me 18:24 or that she's afraid that I might relapse or whatever. 18:29 And I would say that the trust that she has in me 18:31 has been so encouraging, 18:34 and confirming, and solidifying. 18:36 I would never have had that in the gay life 18:39 even when I'm with someone in the gay life. 18:42 They're always wondering, "Who you are looking at? 18:43 Why are you looking at that person? 18:45 You should be looking at me," and all that, 18:47 and it was very difficult situation. 18:50 So that's another thing that I find on this side 18:52 is that trust and faith. 18:55 And you know, everything that God has 18:58 is based upon eternity. 19:00 What Satan offers is based upon the present. 19:03 He's very fleeting, very stimulating. 19:07 But what God offers is long lasting 19:10 and it's for eternity. 19:12 And everything that comes from God is genuine. 19:15 You know, like, the devil only offers the counterfeit. 19:18 Exactly. 19:19 So that's what 3ABN is all about, 19:22 counteracting the counterfeit. 19:23 That's right. That's right. 19:24 That's right. For sure. 19:26 So you feel a lot more secure now? 19:29 Yes. 19:30 You know, I claimed the promise in Desire of Ages 19:33 where it talked about the miracle when Jesus 19:36 turned the water into wine. 19:37 It talks about that each new gift 19:40 that the receiver receives 19:42 is the promise of a richer gift tomorrow. 19:45 You know, and I take that as a promise. 19:47 You know, the walk of a Christian 19:48 isn't necessarily easy, 19:51 but there is profound joy along that path, 19:54 and where I am today is much better 19:56 than where I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago, 19:59 and there is truth to that. 20:00 There's an abiding peace 20:02 that comes by living for the Word of God, 20:04 and it doesn't mean that 20:05 it doesn't pull at my nature and the things 20:08 that I used to like to do, 20:09 but when I follow Jesus Christ, there is... 20:14 It's exponential, it's better than it was before. 20:17 Yes, yes. 20:18 You know, we didn't... 20:20 We kind of touched a little bit on your journey but not really. 20:23 Can you just give us a synopsis of your journey? 20:25 Sure. 20:27 Well, from my first conscious thought, 20:28 I was transgender. 20:30 I just never bonded with my father 20:32 even before I was conscious. 20:34 So by the time I became five and six years old, 20:37 I knew that I was different than the other boys 20:39 in the neighborhood. 20:40 I had three sisters and a mom, my dad was gone a lot. 20:43 But then when he was home, he was raging, angry, 20:45 and abusive. 20:47 So for this little boy 20:48 needing to make this transition to masculinity, 20:51 it was undesirable, and so I rejected it 20:53 in my subconscious. 20:54 So I don't remember, 20:56 you know, making a decision about that. 20:57 So I patterned after my mom and my sisters, 21:00 and I played with the girls. 21:02 When I went to school, 21:03 the boys called me sissy and queer, 21:04 and so that pushed away the one thing 21:06 that I needed was masculine affirmation. 21:09 And so I was happy to play with the girls 21:11 and hopscotch and playing with Barbie's and jump rope. 21:14 And so the immutable law, if you would, is at puberty, 21:19 the Sex Ed is a mystery, becomes the attraction. 21:21 So had I been affirmed by the guys in school, 21:24 and had I, you know, spent time with my dad 21:27 developing those masculine, you know, affirmations, 21:31 then the Sex Ed would have been, 21:32 the mystery would have been girls. 21:34 And so for me, 21:35 actually became same sex interested. 21:38 So I didn't know how to change it, 21:39 I didn't know how to fix it. 21:41 I knew it wasn't according to God, 21:42 and I believed in God. 21:44 But I basically had the image that God must be like my dad, 21:48 arbitrary, distant, unavailable. 21:51 So I served God not because I loved Him, 21:53 I served Him because I feared Him. 21:55 But eventually, this led to, at 20 years old, 21:58 I walked out of the church, I couldn't get my religion 22:01 and my Christianity to come together, 22:02 and nobody was talking about it, 22:04 there were no resources. 22:05 So I went into the gay world. 22:07 Your religion and your sexuality? 22:08 Yeah, what did I say? Christianity. 22:10 Oh, yeah, yeah. But, I know, yeah. 22:12 Right, right. 22:13 So then when I came into the gay culture, 22:15 masculinity is more valuable than femininity. 22:18 And so if I worked out in the gym 22:20 and butched it up a little bit, then I found that 22:22 I got all the attention from men that I wanted. 22:24 And so, at 20 years old, 22:26 the transgender thing just slipped away. 22:27 It just kind of resolved itself. 22:29 But now they have laws 22:31 to actually protect children like me, 22:33 that if they are eight and ten years old, 22:35 and they believe that they are in the wrong sex, 22:36 they can start receiving hormone blockers, 22:39 and, you know, the hormones to help create in them 22:43 through the puberty process, the sex that they desire. 22:46 So if all of a sudden, at 20, 22:47 now I'm finally resolved to be male, 22:50 what if I had a sex change at 16 years old? 22:52 Exactly. I mean, there's no going back. 22:54 And it doesn't change your sex, it just mutilates the body. 22:57 Right. That's crazy. 22:58 I mean, you shouldn't even get married at such a young age 23:01 because your tastes changes, your preferences change, 23:04 things that you like change, you know? 23:07 So you are making a huge life impacting decision. 23:13 Well, fortunately, that wasn't available 23:14 when I was a kid. 23:16 And so by 20, that, you know, resolved itself. 23:18 But I still think that it was initiated 23:21 not because that I was born that way. 23:23 I think that even during those really, 23:26 you know, those early times before I was conscious 23:28 that I had made this decision in my own defense 23:31 to detach from my father. 23:35 What do you say to people who say, "I was born that way. 23:39 I know I was born that way. 23:41 You can't tell me that I wasn't." 23:43 How do you respond to that? 23:45 Because I know you guys hear that. 23:47 Yes. We hear that. 23:48 We hear that everywhere, and actually, 23:51 I would like to bring up in answer to that question 23:55 that our ministry does have a three-pronged approach. 23:57 Ah, you were getting three-pronged. 24:00 I knew it was coming. 24:02 I love it. 24:03 I love that segue right into... 24:05 It's a private joke. You just completed phase one. 24:07 We inspire people with our testimonies, 24:10 and you started us off with that. 24:12 And now you are making a segue into second one 24:16 which is the enlightenment phase. 24:19 And as we go beyond our testimonies, 24:23 and we try to educate the church, 24:26 we really, you know, truth can bear scrutiny. 24:29 So this whole idea of being born gay, 24:32 and once gay, always gay. 24:34 Well, that's an interesting concept, 24:35 but if God condemns homosexuality, 24:39 does He not have a solution? 24:41 And does God create us gay and then condemn the behavior 24:45 because people say that God made me this way, 24:47 He loves me this way, and all of that. 24:50 So we do presentations 24:54 where we examine the statements, 24:56 we look for consistency, and if this is true, 25:00 then that is true. 25:01 And so looking at these various myths 25:05 and statements that are out there, 25:08 that the whole world has bought into, 25:10 socially, and politically, and culturally, 25:12 and even the church is now buying into this 25:15 because this is a question 25:17 we hear in the church all the time. 25:18 "What about those who were born gay?" 25:20 So we look at science, we look at research, 25:24 we look at the surveys. 25:27 And the whole idea of being born gay 25:29 actually came as a political ploy and a hoax 25:33 which began back in 1985 25:36 because the gay culture had made such advances 25:40 with being accepted and celebrated. 25:46 They wanted legal minority status, 25:48 three criteria, 25:50 that you are discriminated group, 25:52 you are helpless to do anything about that, 25:54 and you are born that way. 25:56 So they decided to start tuning that horn 25:59 and you tune it loud enough and long enough 26:01 and frequently enough, and people start, 26:04 you know, believing in the music, 26:05 they buy it. 26:06 And that's what has happened. 26:08 But the important point, Yvonne, is this. 26:13 If someone is thoroughly convinced 26:15 that he or she is born gay, we can share information, 26:19 if they're not receptive to that, 26:20 if they don't believe it, 26:21 if it's not, you know, convincing to them, 26:26 then we go around that 26:27 because why get caught up in a debate. 26:30 And we'd say simply, 26:31 you know, "Jesus invites you like everyone else 26:35 to be born again. 26:36 So if you are born that way, it's okay. 26:40 Jesus invites you to be born again. 26:42 Everyone coming to Christ must go through a conversion. 26:47 It's not conversion therapy, it's conversion of the heart. 26:51 And conversion means change. 26:53 And so why do we believe that gay people, 26:58 the LGBT issue is the only one 27:01 that cannot go through a conversion?" 27:03 Why? 27:04 That is, you know, Satan thinks he has God 27:06 over a barrel with this, that this is the one thing 27:10 that God can't deal with. 27:12 And we are not letting him get away with that 27:14 because we know better, we've been there, 27:16 we've come out of it, we know the power of God 27:19 that transformed the life. 27:21 And so we are showing that a gay person can be born again 27:26 just as a straight person can be born again. 27:29 Yes. 27:31 And we apply God's remedy for sin to this sin issue 27:36 and it works. 27:37 Absolutely. 27:39 You know, it's interesting because if God can't deliver 27:42 you from that, then He is not omnipotent. 27:45 He's impotent. That's right. 27:46 He's impotent. 27:47 That we know He is omnipotent. He is all powerful. 27:51 So we know that God can deliver us from every sin. 27:55 And isn't like Satan to try to portray God as impotent? 27:59 Absolutely. Of course, of course. 28:00 Absolutely. His job is to misrepresent God. 28:05 That's what he does. 28:06 He wants to make God seem judgmental, 28:09 and mean, and arbitrary, and all of that. 28:12 But God is love. 28:13 And what He's offering, 28:15 what He's working through you guys 28:17 with Coming Out Ministries, 28:19 He's offering love to those who are broken. 28:23 We all struggle with something. 28:25 So we can't look down on any sin. 28:29 I mean, that's crazy. 28:30 We've created this hierarchy of sin. 28:33 So, oh, if you're gay, yeah, that's messed up, 28:36 if you're a gay. 28:37 Or if you... 28:39 You know, all these different hierarchies of sin. 28:40 But the bottom line is sin is sin. 28:43 Yup. 28:44 And we have to be able to call it that, 28:45 acknowledge it for what it is, 28:48 and then give the remedy for it. 28:51 And the remedy is in the verse. 28:52 You know, you are talking about 1 Corinthians Chapter 6, 28:55 he's talking about 9, and 10, and all the abominations 28:57 that won't be in heaven. 28:58 It's not just limited to homosexuality. 29:01 It's licentiousness, adultery, fornication. 29:04 You know, the world is struggling with that, 29:06 even inside the church. 29:08 That's right. 29:09 And so we are all on the same playing field, 29:10 but the answer is verse 11. 29:12 It says, "But such were some of you." 29:13 "Were some of you." 29:15 Yes. We needed to hear that verse. 29:16 We needed the church to talk about that 29:18 because all we were hearing is that 29:20 gays were going to burn in hotter hell 29:22 than everybody else. 29:23 So I think that, the takeaway, the condescension, 29:28 I think that still exists in the churches of like, 29:31 you know, Christians stand over these poor, 29:34 pathetic sexual sinners when we're really 29:36 all in need of a savior. 29:38 For sure. 29:39 And I think it's important for people to realize that, 29:41 you know, just because you have a past, 29:43 whatever you have done in your past, 29:45 God still wants you, 29:47 God still wants a relationship with you. 29:48 And if you come to Him, 29:50 He won't leave you the way that, 29:52 when you first came to Him, 29:54 like, He will change you if you allow Him to. 29:58 You know, the devil wants us to believe that 30:00 we've gone too far, 30:02 and that God doesn't desire 30:03 a relationship with us, you know? 30:05 But that's simply not the truth. 30:07 And God really wants to save each and every one of us, 30:10 but sometimes we can stand in the way of that 30:13 by our own decisions and choices. 30:16 That's a worthwhile, Jay. 30:17 What Satan is constantly trying to do in essence 30:19 is project upon God, his own character. 30:22 That's right. 30:23 You see, Satan wanted to be like God, 30:27 so he makes God look like Satan, 30:30 and he wants the world to look at him as God. 30:34 We already hear these things, like, these terrible storms 30:36 we've seen, hurricanes and so forth, an act of God. 30:40 God is blamed for all of these things, 30:43 and it's like the world forgets there's a devil. 30:45 There again, 30:46 we are not letting him get away with it. 30:47 That's right. That's right. That's right. 30:50 See, I didn't forget 30:52 that's a social worker thing in me. 30:53 So now how did you come out? 30:55 How did the Lord lead you out of that gay lifestyle? 31:00 It's interesting. 31:01 We talk about how many times, people have to hit rock bottom, 31:04 but it just seemed like 31:06 the devil has just given me everything. 31:08 Good looking boyfriend, big arms, big blue eyes, 31:12 big bank account, 31:13 we both drove Mercedes convertibles, 31:15 had a condo on a lake, a house with the pool. 31:17 I had the accolades of the world, 31:19 and you know, from there, 31:21 because my sisters were praying, 31:22 I don't know if the devil heard their prayers, 31:24 but it was like, he couldn't give me enough. 31:26 And the Lord met me right where I was. 31:29 It was amazing. 31:32 It was actually 31:33 through my brother-in-law's baptism, 31:35 who I hated, and he was a miserable Christian 31:38 that was, you know, somebody that I can look at him 31:40 and just say, 31:42 "Your Christianity is not working for you." 31:43 So when he remarried my sister, 31:46 I thought it was the biggest mistake 31:47 that anyone could have ever made. 31:49 And I went with my condescending attitude 31:51 like, "I have a right, 31:52 and Christianity is really for losers." 31:54 And so as I sat there in that church 31:56 and this man came forward, 31:59 and he just confessed to the church 32:00 how he'd been unfaithful, 32:02 he thanked the church for taking care of his family, 32:05 and he said he wanted to make it right with God today 32:07 so that he can make it right to his wife the next day, 32:09 and there were tears coming down my face. 32:11 That was the beginning of my conversion, 32:15 watching this man that I hated. 32:16 Wow. Yeah. 32:17 Seeing the power of God move in him. 32:19 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 32:21 And the power of God moved in you. 32:23 That's beautiful. 32:24 Within three months, I was baptized in the church. 32:26 See, that's the power of a testimony. 32:28 Yes. That's right. 32:30 He was giving a testimony and it affected. 32:32 That's right. Wow. Yeah. 32:34 It's a lot easier to listen to somebody 32:36 who's been in a particular situation. 32:39 Like, if somebody is telling you about drugs, 32:43 and how to be drug free, 32:45 and they've never touched a drug in their life, 32:47 they've never done anything, 32:48 but just because they have this college education 32:50 or whatever the case maybe, 32:51 if they haven't experienced that person who's on drugs, 32:56 or addicted to drugs 32:57 is less inclined to pay them any attention. 33:00 You haven't experienced what I've experienced. 33:03 And you guys have walked 33:05 through some things that people, 33:07 when you share your journey and your testimony, 33:09 that they can identify with, they can relate to, 33:12 and they see how God has delivered you 33:16 from those situations. 33:18 Should I speak to that for just a moment? 33:19 So many people that have been raised in a church, 33:22 and stayed in the church, and never had a wild side, 33:25 or so wild outs, I think they don't have a testimony, 33:29 but they do. 33:31 What a powerful testimony that they have 33:34 that the Lord has spared them from all of these things. 33:37 So everyone has a testimony if they will think about it. 33:41 It was never God's intention that we go the direction 33:44 that we went, to go through all of the pain. 33:47 My whole life was a life of hurting people 33:50 or being hurt, rejecting people or being rejected. 33:54 And God never intended for that. 33:57 And so people who have followed the counsel of the Lord 34:01 from childhood, happily stayed with the Lord, 34:03 and been faithful to Him, 34:05 they are not as scarred as we are. 34:08 We are scarred, we have collateral damage, 34:12 we have consequences that we deal with. 34:15 To this day we have consequences 34:17 with our families that were hurt, 34:19 and going through divorce, 34:21 and children raised without their father, 34:23 and so for those were painful things. 34:26 But I just wanted to stress 34:29 that you don't have to have been a drug addict 34:32 or a homosexual or an adulterer to have a powerful testimony 34:37 for how the Lord can work in your life. 34:39 Very true. Good point. 34:40 What's been the response to Coming Out Ministries 34:44 in the community and in the church 34:47 because the culture, today's culture says, 34:51 "I'm okay. 34:53 I'm gay, I'm okay. 34:55 Leave me alone. I'm living my life." 34:57 So what's been the response to you coming out 35:00 and you saying, "No, God has a better plan." 35:04 What's been the response? 35:05 Well, we've had a gambit of responses. 35:09 When the ministry started, 35:10 we were hopeful to basically reach out to people like us 35:13 that needed to know that there was redemption available, 35:16 and that God still loved us. 35:17 And when we came into this ministry 35:20 which turned out to be an international ministry 35:22 very quickly, all of a sudden, now we realize that 35:25 there's two opinions in the church. 35:27 There's one that still thinks 35:28 that it's the above all abomination, 35:30 and then the other people who think that 35:32 it's totally permissible and everything in between. 35:35 And so it depends. 35:38 There's some areas, 35:39 some countries even where presidents of conferences, 35:42 you know, are doing whatever they can 35:44 to block us from coming in just to tell our story. 35:47 And they use these work agreements 35:51 to basically censor our ministry to keep us out 35:53 rather than to even just hear the story that we have. 35:57 But then, again, most of the time, 35:59 when we do speak at churches 36:01 that are willing to breach this topic, 36:04 you know, they are terrified. 36:06 And they are like, "I don't know, I don't know. 36:07 What are they going to say? 36:09 We don't want them saying the word sex in our sanctuary." 36:12 But when we come in... 36:15 Sometimes it's almost just like that. 36:17 Right, no, no, but it's real. 36:18 It's real. Yeah. 36:19 But then when they actually take time to listen to us, 36:22 when the weekend is done 36:23 and we've accomplished everything 36:25 that we set out to do, these people are shocked 36:27 and their hearts are completely turned around. 36:29 They're like, "Wow. 36:31 I thought you were going to talk about the gay issue. 36:32 But this is really about sin." 36:34 Yes. 36:35 And we've even been, 36:37 you know, told that this is a present-day truth, 36:38 you know, talking about the issues of today. 36:41 I think back to, Ellen White made a comment about 36:44 Satan's repetitious plot 36:45 that as Satan did to the Israelites 36:48 just before they were going into the Canaan land, 36:50 she says that, 36:51 "He's going to do the same thing 36:52 with all of his effort, " 36:54 just as the Israelites are setting 36:56 on the banks of the heavenly Canaan land. 36:59 And so we know that sexual sin is going to be rampant 37:02 at the end of time, and yet, 37:03 it's the issue that we don't talk about. 37:05 Yeah. It is rampant. 37:07 Yeah. It is rampant. I mean... 37:09 LGBT isn't the only game in the street. 37:11 The biggest one is pornography and sexual sin in the church. 37:17 I think that we underestimate 37:21 Satan's pull through sex 37:24 because the Word talks about, you know, 37:26 the sin outside the body and against the body, 37:31 two types of sin. 37:33 The sins outside the body and against the body. 37:37 And then the ones against the body 37:38 are sexual sins, and sexual sins, 37:41 that's the biggest, 37:42 I think, the biggest snare that Satan has for us 37:47 in this day and time. 37:48 And it's interesting, 37:50 I think the reason that that is, 37:51 is because we are relational beings. 37:53 Right. 37:55 So he knows that we desire relationships, 37:58 and he offers a perverted way. 38:02 Instead of love, he offers lust. 38:04 And I think he plays to that 38:06 and something that affects everybody. 38:08 Not everybody smokes, not everybody drinks, 38:12 or whatever the case maybe, 38:14 but everybody desires some form of relationship 38:17 and some form of interaction 38:19 and intimacy with another human being. 38:22 Our young people are being slimed 38:24 at a rapid rate by the media. 38:26 Things that they look at on YouTube, 38:28 or even, you know, unsupervised time, 38:31 you know, with the internet. 38:33 And so we have young people 38:34 that are as young as second grade, third grade 38:36 that are already addicted to pornography, 38:39 and the affects that that has on children. 38:40 Second and third grade? Absolutely. 38:42 What is it? 38:43 Ninety-percent of kids 38:45 have been exposed to pornography 38:46 from the ages of 8 to 16, 38:48 and mostly, while doing their homework. 38:49 So any child 38:51 that is unsupervised with the internet, 38:52 you know, there's no way that 38:54 they can handle this onslaught that's coming at them 38:57 through the pornography industry. 38:59 I think, you know, as parents, we can tend to not... 39:05 You know, like, let the child go 39:08 and deal with the computer, 39:09 and you're doing something else, 39:11 and you're not thinking what is that child seeing 39:16 because you're just thinking, "Well, little, you know, 39:18 John is doing his homework or Suzie is doing her homework, 39:21 and that's it." 39:22 But what you're saying is that these children from eight, 39:27 eight years old are being exposed 39:29 to all of this sexual stuff. 39:31 They don't even know what to do with that. 39:32 Yeah. 39:34 They don't know what to do with it. 39:35 The most shocking statistics that I heard is that 39:37 only 17% of girls 39:39 and 3% of boys have never seen porn. 39:43 Three-percent? That's right. 39:45 Wow. Yeah. 39:46 We have our young kids, their fathers are pastors, 39:49 mothers nurses, you know, they come from good homes, 39:51 they go to an Adventist academy, 39:54 and they come home, 39:55 and a friend printed out a piece of porn 39:57 from their computer, 39:58 and these kids are hooked in second grade. 40:01 You know, when I was four years old, 40:03 and introduced to sexuality through molestation, 40:08 I didn't know how to process that. 40:09 That was my introduction to sex, 40:11 the same with pornography. 40:13 A four year old child is not mature enough physically, 40:16 mentally, emotionally, spiritually to even process. 40:18 Right. 40:19 So they are going to be derailed, 40:22 they are going to be warped, 40:23 they are going to have a warped perspective 40:25 about the whole thing, 40:27 and then sex becomes a self-focus issue, 40:32 self-gratification, 40:34 when God meant it to be a selfless experience. 40:39 You know, husband and wife are together, 40:41 and they each are serving 40:43 the other and pleasing the other. 40:45 It's exponentially better than if you go into it 40:49 to serve and please yourself. 40:51 And so by the time you are old enough 40:54 to really understand all about sexuality, 40:57 a lot of these children have already had years, 40:59 I did, years of wild fantasies and imaginations, 41:03 uncontrollable thoughts in the wrong direction, 41:06 and it created a lifelong problem, 41:10 an addiction to wrong kinds of thinking 41:13 which led me into an addictive lifestyle. 41:16 And there wasn't anything to counteract that. 41:20 I think that, you know, 41:22 lot of times we don't talk about sex, 41:24 the church doesn't want to talk about it, 41:27 parents might not want to talk about it, 41:29 so the child is learning from the streets 41:34 or learning from the computer. 41:35 And you don't want to destroy their innocence. 41:38 You know, we hear that a lot, 41:39 you know, like, what's the appropriate age 41:41 for a child to come to one of our, 41:44 you know, presentations. 41:45 But I think to myself, you know what? 41:47 These kids now, they are hearing things 41:48 much earlier than we did and have access to things 41:51 so much earlier. 41:53 So even in a parent's naivety, they think that 41:55 they are protecting their child by not talking about it, 41:57 but then are getting an education from the world 42:00 or the kids in school. 42:01 And what's really sad is two years ago 42:03 at the general conference session, 42:05 President Wilson said that 49% 42:07 of our Adventist young people 42:09 think that homosexual marriage is acceptable. 42:12 And so they are learning and it's from the world, 42:14 but if we refuse to talk about these issues, 42:17 then again it's like permission. 42:20 And that's what I think Coming Out Ministries 42:22 is really not only good at 42:25 but that's our desire is to like, let us come in, 42:27 let us start talking about these really difficult subjects 42:30 to get the communication open so that when we leave, 42:34 you know, we did the dirty work and we talked about, 42:36 you know, the problem 42:38 and also to guide into the solution, 42:41 so that churches can find that healing 42:43 and families can find that healing. 42:45 Anyone who, 42:46 young person that might be privately struggling, 42:50 how must they feel 42:52 when they see their church has brought in a seminar 42:55 dealing with this issue that church is now talking about it, 43:00 there are resources, there are people to talk to, 43:03 and so now they realize 43:06 they don't have to struggle alone, 43:09 they don't have to feel isolated. 43:11 Right. Exactly. 43:13 Because when you struggle alone like that, 43:14 you become totally overwhelmed. 43:16 Yeah. 43:17 Well, you can't... 43:19 Who can you talk to? 43:20 Who can you go to? 43:21 I mean, it becomes, 43:23 to me it's such a secretive kind of taboo thing 43:25 and what the church has to do is say 43:28 "This is a safe place for you, 43:30 you are going to find out how to deal with this." 43:34 I mean, you guys said you didn't have the resources 43:37 when you were coming up that you are offering now. 43:40 Tell us some of the resources that you offer? 43:42 So well, Yvonne, 43:43 I thought you really touched on that 43:45 that code word, "safe place," 43:47 and that's really the pro-gay theology 43:50 that's moving into Christianity 43:52 is talking about creating a safe place 43:54 for people to basically come out and to be loved. 43:57 Well, that's only part of the equation or solution. 44:01 And it's interesting, we were at a university, 44:03 and we were presenting, 44:05 and the idea came up again about 44:07 how do we create a safe place on our campus. 44:10 And I thought it was so profound this, 44:11 Professor Racis Henan, 44:13 he said, "I am not approving of having a safe place 44:16 on our campus 44:17 because if you have a safe place 44:19 where somebody is free to be or whatever," he says, 44:21 "That implies that 44:22 the rest of the campus is not safe. 44:24 The whole campus needs to be safe." 44:26 And what is safety? 44:28 Safety is in truth 44:29 because that's where your safety is. 44:31 And so just to, like, to be kind, 44:33 and to be loving to somebody, and to, 44:36 you know, conform them in their sin, 44:38 they are not safe, they are lost. 44:42 I'm glad you said something about truth, 44:44 because, you know, a lot of people nowadays 44:46 are talking about, 44:47 "Well, just live up to your truth." 44:49 Like, that is so subjective. 44:51 First of all, the truth is the truth, 44:55 there's no your truth, my truth, you know? 44:58 It's fact. 45:00 Yeah, the facts are facts, you know. 45:02 Right, right. 45:03 So it's that whole idea of syncretism, 45:07 take a little bit of this, and little bit of that, 45:09 little bit of this, and put it all together, 45:12 and make your own way, your own truth, 45:15 your own doctrine, you know? 45:17 And it goes back to Aleister Crowley, 45:19 "Do what thou wilt." What? 45:21 Shall be people of the law. 45:22 Do what you want to do, you know? 45:25 But that's what's gotten us to where we are now 45:28 because there are so many people 45:30 who are just doing what they want to do 45:32 without realizing that this is not... 45:34 God's plan is so much better for you. 45:37 And I think that's really where we need to come from. 45:40 Loving people but teaching them the better way. 45:44 Yeah. 45:45 Imagine if we took that philosophy 45:49 and applied it to chemistry. 45:51 Which philosophy? Do what thou wilt? 45:53 Yes. 45:54 I mean, I just got that. 45:56 Right, ignoring the facts, ignoring the laws, 46:00 the unchangeable laws of God in physics, 46:03 unchangeable laws of God in chemistry, in science. 46:06 These are all unchangeable laws, 46:08 and the whole world, 46:10 even atheists acknowledge that these are unchangeable laws. 46:14 But when it comes to morality, "Do what you want." 46:16 You know, there's no need for a law. 46:19 And it's an inconsistent way of thinking. 46:23 Absolutely. 46:24 So what tools do, does, my dad, if my dad were here, 46:29 he would be correcting me grammatically. 46:31 What tools does Coming Out Ministries offer 46:36 to help people to get free 46:41 from the entrapment of sexual sin or of sin period, 46:44 just sin across the board? 46:45 What tools do you offer? 46:47 First tool that comes to my mind is our... 46:48 Number three, I like that. It's a very powerful. 46:52 Good, good. 46:54 See, come on. 46:55 Good, good, good. 46:56 So the first in inspiring, the second one is enlightening, 47:00 and the third is equipping. 47:02 So on our website, 47:03 I think the number one tool that we really are promoting 47:05 is our documentary, "Journey interrupted." 47:08 It's one hour story of five individuals 47:11 and thanks to you, Yvonne, you shared that on 3ABN. 47:16 Oh, praise the Lord. 47:18 Or was it Dare to Dream? 47:19 Both. Yes. 47:20 That's right, that's right. 47:22 We simulcasted. Simulcasted. That's right. 47:23 And that was huge for us, yeah. Powerful. 47:25 Oh, my goodness. 47:27 People need to be able to watch that. 47:28 How can they see that, if they want to see that? 47:31 'Cause that's one of the most 47:32 powerful documentaries out there. 47:34 You go to journeyinterrupted.com. 47:36 It's now been translated into 10 different languages. 47:39 Amazing. 47:40 Is it on your website too? Or can they find? 47:42 Yeah. 47:43 So we just put up your website, 47:44 and they can find it through your website. 47:47 Sure. Right. 47:49 Or just go to journeyinterrupted.com. 47:51 This is something that is so fascinating to us 47:53 because we did grow up in a church with no resources. 47:57 And so we come into the church with this experience 48:03 that in the world as a terrible experience, 48:07 but how educational it was for us. 48:10 And so now we are being asked 48:12 and we are producing the very resources 48:16 that would have been so helpful to us 48:19 in our struggle. 48:20 And so the Lord may have never... 48:23 I'm sure the Lord never intended for us 48:25 to go the route that we went. 48:27 We thwarted plan A, we thwarted plan B, C, and D. 48:31 I sometimes think I must be on plan Z right now. 48:35 But each of God's plans work. 48:39 And so He takes the mistakes of your past just like Satan, 48:44 when he get someone like me with a degree in theology, 48:47 and converts me to his side, 48:50 don't you know that all of Satan's hosts rejoice 48:53 that they took one of God's trained 48:55 to be a minister and used him for corruption. 48:58 But then God takes someone that has been on Satan side 49:01 and turns that person around to His glory. 49:04 It's the great controversy going back and forth 49:07 between the two. 49:08 And it just amazes me how God can take us 49:12 from degraded self-destructive pasts 49:15 and turn all of that around to His glory. 49:17 Yeah. 49:18 And so now we are creating a lot of resources. 49:21 Thanks in great part to 3ABN and Dare to Dream Network. 49:26 You have afforded us so many opportunities 49:29 to create these programs in 30 minute segments, 49:33 one hour segments that are going around the world 49:36 and people are really, really blessed, 49:38 and we thank you for that. 49:39 Oh, well, we praise the Lord for you guys. 49:40 You know, one of the ways that those still work is, 49:42 it's really incredible. 49:44 People will say, 49:45 "You know, what can we do to help educate the kids?" 49:46 And we hand them the gay puzzle, 49:48 you know, which we did on Dare to Dream. 49:50 Yes. 49:51 And that 30 minute segments, and I say, 49:52 "Play just one of them. 49:54 Pick one, you know? 49:55 Masturbation, pornography, 49:56 you know, restoring same sex relationships, 50:00 whatever that is." 50:01 I say, "Then just play it, and then we can dialogue." 50:03 And with young people, 50:05 they are really wanting to start talking 50:08 about these really difficult issues. 50:10 And so I call them conversation starters. 50:12 Yes. 50:13 So just one pack of the gay puzzle, 50:15 one or two is really great to introduce 50:16 in a Sabbath school setting. 50:18 What's great is you guys did 50:20 couple of seasons of Pure Choices 50:22 which is our sexual purity program 50:25 on Dare to Dream, 50:26 and what you brought to that was just, 50:29 it was incredible because people opened up 50:32 about their lives, 50:34 and the word of their testimonies, again, 50:37 powerful testimonies. 50:38 You guys, and the people 50:40 that you brought to those programs 50:42 just opened up, shared. 50:45 You know, I think about Walt Heyer. 50:46 Yeah. 50:48 I mean, he was just... 50:50 Transgender that had the operation, 50:53 and then came back to Jesus after all that, 50:56 and just, I mean, it's just incredible. 50:58 All of these stories, those show the power of God 51:02 in broken lives. 51:04 You know, there's another new aspect 51:05 that we are recognizing and bringing in 51:08 to the ministry now, 51:09 and that's actually the testimonies of parents 51:12 that have children that are LGBT 51:14 because I think parents suffer a greater guilt 51:17 than even we did and condemnation. 51:20 And the parents are the ones that are terrified 51:22 to even to approach us for fear that 51:24 if somebody saw them talking to us 51:25 that they would figure out that their child was gay, 51:28 and then the fact that they feel like they have no one 51:30 that would understand them. 51:32 And so they struggle alone, and their anxiety is great. 51:36 And so we just did a program last weekend 51:39 where we actually had Anna's mother 51:41 from our film actually give her testimony 51:43 about what that looks like 51:44 living with a daughter that is still gay 51:46 and she went through 51:48 the seven different stages of grief, 51:49 but I see that is definitely 51:52 a needful aspect of this ministry too 51:54 is to provide community for people 51:56 that are praying for their loved ones, 51:59 for their children, and to also reach out to them as well. 52:02 Yes, and resource too. 52:03 You know, to come to you and say, "What do I do? 52:06 My child wants me to go to the wedding, 52:09 go to the gay wedding. 52:10 What do I do? 52:11 You know, how am I supposed to let my friends know 52:15 or you know, how do I... 52:17 My child just came out to me. 52:19 How do I respond to that?" 52:20 I mean all of these questions we know that parents have, 52:24 and they need to have someone to ask. 52:27 You guys are the ones. Yeah. 52:28 And one of our books is, 52:31 "Straight Answers to the Gay Questions." 52:33 Having been there, 20 years of writing responses 52:39 to people who have legitimate questions. 52:41 And when I say straight answers, 52:43 it's AIT meaning, straight from the Word of God, 52:47 it's not straight as opposed to gay. 52:48 It's a play on the words. 52:49 It's biblical answers to the gay questions, 52:53 and that's one of our resources that's very in-depth 52:57 and very comprehensive and so we have books, 53:00 and DVDs, and tracks and many different resources. 53:03 Wonderful. 53:04 Oh, I thought you were going to say something. 53:06 It has been amazing. 53:07 I was going to talk about the tracks a little bit. 53:09 We have tracks that can be handed out, 53:11 and one of them is the Coming Out Ministries track 53:14 which basically gives a story about Anna's mother, 53:17 and Anna is, you know, a lesbian woman, 53:19 and she brings her girlfriend home, 53:21 you know, for the weekend 53:22 and what that was like for the mom, 53:24 and a simple task of just making biscuits, 53:27 you know, with her daughter's girlfriend 53:29 was just overwhelming for this young woman, 53:31 and it broke her to tears thinking, 53:33 "I know how you your mom feels about us, 53:35 and yet, she loved me." 53:36 And so our tracks are also pretty quick and short, 53:40 and they are easy to leave in very strategic places. 53:45 But they also, I think help to open up conversations 53:49 and to find out 53:50 who Coming Our Ministries really is. 53:51 That's awesome. 53:53 And so the best way to reach you 53:55 is on your website? 53:57 ComingOutMinistries? 53:59 ComingOutMinistries.org. 54:02 Good. 54:03 And I think we have phone numbers too 54:05 on the screen now too so that you can call, 54:08 or go to the website, you can donate 54:12 because they need funds to help to continue 54:15 developing these resources. 54:17 Thank you. 54:18 And to travel, 54:19 and to do the things that you guys do. 54:21 You have to have funds. 54:22 So please support this ministry. 54:24 This is a very, very important ministry to support. 54:27 As you know this situation is, 54:31 they are going up against society at large 54:35 because society at large is saying, 54:37 "We don't need to change, and don't even, 54:39 do not dare to tell us that we can or need to change." 54:45 And so you guys are on the frontlines. 54:47 We really, you know, appreciate what you do, 54:51 and we thank you for that. 54:53 Do you have any closing thoughts 54:54 for our viewers before we go? 54:57 Our time is almost up. It's amazing. 54:58 I know we have opposition in some places, 55:03 but for every door that's closed, 55:04 we have probably three or four that are opened. 55:08 From here, next week, 55:09 we are going to be in Australia, 55:11 New Zealand for three or four weeks, 55:14 we come back for a couple of weeks, 55:15 then we are going to Cuba. 55:17 And places where you think 55:18 they probably don't even deal with this issue. 55:21 Now this is a global issue as it was in the days of Lot, 55:26 Luke 17, "Even so will it be in the day 55:28 when the Son of Man shall be revealed." 55:31 And that's what we are seeing. 55:32 And we are trying to meet this issue 55:34 knowing that it is a last day issue, 55:36 it is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus. 55:38 And God is not willing that any should perish, 55:41 that includes gay people. 55:43 That's right. Absolutely. 55:44 Absolutely. 55:46 I think about the person that may be watching, 55:49 that was maybe in the valley of decision, 55:51 or maybe not in a valley of decision, 55:54 maybe their decision is that they are fine the way they are. 55:56 And you know, 55:58 I would like to speak to that person that, 56:00 you know, not to close off any of the options 56:03 that God has for them, and God's way, 56:05 as Ron said, has to be better, 56:07 and it has to be better, and He says, 56:09 "Taste and see that the Lord is not only good." 56:11 He says, "But put Me to the test, put Me, 56:13 you know, find out if My way is better." 56:16 And you know, 56:17 something that was a really tough one for me 56:20 because I wasn't interested in giving up my identity, 56:22 I wasn't interested in giving up my boyfriend, 56:25 but as I pursued Jesus Christ and as I was experiencing Him, 56:29 there was something that I couldn't deny, 56:30 and it continued to draw me closer to it. 56:33 And so, you know, I would just hope that 56:35 that people would just be willing to be objective enough 56:38 to just say, "All right. 56:39 This is another option. 56:41 Let me see what this is all about." 56:42 And so, you know, we all have the right to choose 56:44 whatever path we want to go on, 56:46 and so instead of destroying people 56:48 that don't necessarily agree with you, 56:51 or making that your angst, 56:52 why not find out what that option is 56:54 because Coming Out Ministries isn't here to drag people, 56:57 you know, into heaven kicking and screaming. 56:59 We wanted to be your decision 'cause it has to be. 57:02 You know, it would be that way with God for us. 57:04 Yeah. Right. 57:06 Right. Praise the Lord. 57:07 Jay, you have a closing thought? 57:09 Just that basically, just accept Christ today. 57:13 I mean, why put something off for tomorrow 57:15 that you can do today 57:17 that can transform your life for the better. 57:19 You know, there's nothing better 57:21 than a relationship with Jesus Christ. 57:22 Amen. 57:24 We always say on Dare to Dream and Urban Report 57:27 that God has a plan for you. 57:29 He has a plan for you, and His way is so much better 57:33 than anything you can imagine. 57:35 So just trust Him. 57:36 Know that He's got this plan, know that if you seek Him 57:40 and bring Him into the mix, invite God into your life 57:43 to show you a better way. 57:46 You've seen from Pastor Ron and from Mike 57:50 that God has led them into the better way, 57:53 and He would do the same for you. 57:55 He's doing it for us, and if you don't know Jesus, 57:57 accept Him now. 57:59 Thank you for watching. Thank you for being with us. 58:01 Join us next time 58:03 'cause it wouldn't be the same without you. |
Revised 2019-11-06