Stay tuned to meet two men
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who are not afraid
to speak truth to power.
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My name is Jason Bradley.
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And I'm Yvonne Lewis-Shelton,
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report.
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Our guests
today are no strangers
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to Dare to Dream or 3ABN.
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We have Mike Carducci
and Pastor Ron Woolsey
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from Coming Out Ministries.
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Hey, it's good
to see you. Welcome.
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I would reach over
there, but, you know...
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I'll reach.
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You are a little
far. A little far.
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Welcome. Thank you.
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So everybody's
seen, well, not everybody,
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but a lot of people have
seen you on Pure Choices,
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I mean, we've seen
you on Urban Report,
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but you guys have
some ministry updates.
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But before we jump into
that, we'd like to reestablish
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what Coming Out
Ministries is all about.
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So Coming Out Ministries
started eight years ago.
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I remember that I read articles
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and I'd heard
about these other people
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that had come
out of homosexuality
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back into church
culture which shocked me,
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I thought I was the only one.
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And Ron was speaking
in SoCal Camp Meeting
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and two of the
girls that we started with
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were also living in California.
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So it was determined
that that would be the place
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that we would meet.
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We got together,
five individuals,
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we even got our testimonies
recorded while we were there,
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and as I heard their testimonies
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and met these people,
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the comment was made that,
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"You know, one
testimony is good,
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but imagine five together."
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So that's how Coming Out
Ministries came together.
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Wow. It's great.
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One of the things that I
love about your ministry is that
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even though you all
came out from gay culture,
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it's so much broader than that.
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You really deal with
sin and redemption from sin.
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So it's not just homosexual sin,
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it's heterosexual, promiscuity,
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pornography, all of those things
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because you
realize that sin is sin,
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and we are all struggling.
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So your ministry is just
so much broader than that
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but you are so transparent
with your testimonies.
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I think it would
be good for those
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who are not familiar
with your testimonies,
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if you would just
share your journey a bit
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with our viewers who
have not met you before.
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Well, you know,
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another interesting
factor in all of this was that
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none of us were
sought out by the church.
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We were led by the Holy Spirit
and through a lot of prayer
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to do our own
study and research,
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and we came into the phase
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not on our own,
the Lord let us in,
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but it was not a church effort
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which I think, I found
that to be very fascinating
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as we all compared notes,
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but I was one who had
been raised in the church.
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I was a very spiritual child,
and teenager, and young person.
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But I had been sexually molested
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as a four-year old
little boy on the farm,
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and then I was
repeatedly molested
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throughout my
grade school years.
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I was, I think pushed
away from the male gender,
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you know, the male
gender in my peer group
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through mocking, and
teasing, and molestation,
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and so I was very vulnerable.
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So when someone showed
me acceptance and affection
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from my same gender,
even though it was perverted,
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it was better than none at all.
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I was very
vulnerable to that, and I think
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that may be true
with a lot of people.
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But I thought at one
point, because I was spiritual
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and I wrestled
against my inclinations,
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I decided if I
would just get married,
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it would take
care of everything.
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I was so intelligent.
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And I thought, you know,
marriage would be the end
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or it would be the solution
that I have to warn anyone
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who is watching out
there, that's not marriage,
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marriage is not the
solution to any problem.
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I soon realized that I
had made a terrible mistake,
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even though my
wife was a Christian,
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and I chose to
have a Christian wife,
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Christian home, and
to make Christian babies,
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have a Christian
education, all of those things,
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it only added to my confusion.
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So I ended up, yes...
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I'm sorry.
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I didn't mean to interrupt
you, but were you then,
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at this point in your
journey when you got married,
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were you not
spiritual at that point,
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were you trying to cover
up the gay, your gayness,
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so to speak, where
were you spiritually?
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I was still very
spiritual but I was conflicted.
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I didn't have
answers for my struggle.
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You know, I went through college
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and earned a degree in theology.
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Also, I worked on premed,
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I wanted to be a
medical missionary.
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What I got out of my education
did not give me my answers,
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and see, I think
this is a common thing
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that we all shared
growing up in the church,
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there was no
discussion about homosexuality,
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there were no resources,
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we didn't know of
anyone we could trust,
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we felt isolated, as
he mentioned, all alone.
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So you don't
dare reveal something
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that is so shameful and taboo.
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And I hadn't even done anything.
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It was just that that struggle.
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But I ended bringing my marriage
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to an end eventually
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because I just gave up.
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I'd prayed that God would
take the gay away, He didn't.
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I got angry
with God, frustrated,
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went into the gay life.
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But after many
years in the gay life
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and having praying
parents and friends
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and that kind of intersession.
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The Holy Spirit really
worked to draw me back,
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and I began to
study the Word of God.
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I remember
picking up Steps to Christ
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with a margarita in one
hand, a cigarette in the other,
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and reading page
one Steps to Christ.
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And that didn't
go on for very long
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but to make that part
of the testimony short,
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I found everything I needed
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in my own personal
study of God's Word.
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There's power in the Word,
re-creative and creative power.
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"By the Word of the
Lord were the heavens made,
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all the host of them by
the breath of His mouth."
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Breath of His mouth, yes.
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And so that same re-creative
power is in the Word,
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is exceeding great and
precious promises of God.
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Yeah.
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You know, Pastor
Ron, that's so important.
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What you said earlier about
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you ask God to
take the gay away,
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you tried to pray the gay away,
and it just wasn't happening.
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You know, I think that
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a lot of people find
themselves in that situation
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where they are
trying to pray the gay away
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but they are not doing anything.
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Also, they are not studying,
they are not, you know,
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they are just saying,
"Lord, take this away from me."
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But there's nothing
else going on to kind of
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feed the mind and spirit.
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And so I think
that's very interesting
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because you prayed about it,
and you weren't, at that point,
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getting the results
that you were hoping to get
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just from prayer.
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I was looking for a quick fix.
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"God, You take care of it."
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But He wants us to
exercise our faith.
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When He says, "My grace
is sufficient for you, "
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that means, He gives us
all a measure of strength.
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And as we
exercise that strength,
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just like in a
gymnasium, when you exercise,
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you get stronger.
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When I read Jesus
suffered being tempted,
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that means, He struggled.
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Struggle makes you strong.
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It's when you don't
struggle, that you fail,
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you give in, you become weak.
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And so I learned
through my own personal study,
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and how to apply the tools
that are in the Word of God.
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And 27 years
ago, I came out of it.
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Been married now for 26 years,
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and we've made
more Christian babies.
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You know, it's
been a wonderful life,
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the last 27 years.
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Praise the Lord.
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Having been on both
sides, I can truly say,
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"Father knows best.
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God's way is the better way."
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It's good.
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I loved how you said you learned
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how to apply the
tools from Word of God,
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because, you know, knowledge
without application is useless,
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pretty much.
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You see, I had that knowledge
with my degree in theology.
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But I didn't
know how to apply it.
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I really didn't have
a good understanding,
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but when I started
studying for myself
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instead of where the professors,
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has made a big difference.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so how did you
end up coming to the Lord?
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Well, I studied my
way out of the gay life.
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Wasn't it the
Left Behind series?
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My parents, when
they would visit,
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they knew that I was...
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Well, I was not only
labeled as unchangeable,
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I've become
unreachable, and they knew
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they couldn't
share things with me.
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So every time, they
left to go back home
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on the other
side of the country,
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they left things behind,
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and I'd find
them under my pillow
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and my bed and things like that,
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and I called that
my Left Behind series.
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And a big beautiful Bible,
all kinds of wonderful books,
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you know, the
Spirit of Prophecy books.
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And because I
wouldn't go to anyone,
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the Lord just filled my
home with everything I needed.
00:10:02.13\00:10:06.13
That's where I
found the answers.
00:10:06.17\00:10:07.97
That's awesome.
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It's interesting
because that's one of the things
00:10:09.37\00:10:11.64
that we've really
liked to point out
00:10:11.67\00:10:13.01
is that we weren't
praying for ourselves,
00:10:13.04\00:10:15.41
we wanted
nothing to do with God.
00:10:15.44\00:10:17.25
But because somebody
else was praying for us,
00:10:17.28\00:10:19.51
each and every member
of Coming Out Ministries
00:10:19.55\00:10:21.38
had somebody praying for them.
00:10:21.42\00:10:23.22
And we've recognized
the power of those prayers.
00:10:23.25\00:10:26.19
You know,
living in a gay culture
00:10:26.22\00:10:28.52
for over 20 years
never using protection ever,
00:10:28.56\00:10:31.43
being a sexual addict,
00:10:31.46\00:10:32.79
I should have died
00:10:32.83\00:10:34.16
with some of the
partners that I was with.
00:10:34.20\00:10:35.53
They'd be dead
three months later
00:10:35.56\00:10:36.90
and yet I lived.
00:10:36.93\00:10:38.27
You know, and then
to not even have HIV,
00:10:38.30\00:10:40.84
again, it was the
prayers of my sisters
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that were praying for me.
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I'm sure that is the
reason why I'm still here but...
00:10:44.41\00:10:48.38
I need to stop you on that
00:10:48.41\00:10:49.74
because that is a
super important point.
00:10:49.78\00:10:52.15
If you know someone
who is in the gay culture,
00:10:52.18\00:10:54.78
or has any sin that
they cannot seem to shake,
00:10:54.82\00:10:58.25
you pray for them,
you intercede for them.
00:10:58.29\00:11:00.82
They might not even feel
the need to pray about it.
00:11:00.86\00:11:04.33
But you intercede for
them because that intercession,
00:11:04.36\00:11:07.70
your parents, your sisters,
that made all the difference.
00:11:07.73\00:11:11.60
It's interesting
because you know, oftentimes,
00:11:11.63\00:11:13.80
people want to
just talk about people
00:11:13.84\00:11:16.04
as opposed to acting...
00:11:16.07\00:11:17.57
That is right.
On what they know.
00:11:17.61\00:11:19.34
You know, don't just talk
about people, pray for them.
00:11:19.37\00:11:22.28
Do something to be
a blessing to them,
00:11:22.31\00:11:25.01
to show God's love and
share God's love with them.
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Don't be a part of the problem,
be a part of the solution.
00:11:30.29\00:11:33.25
Yes, it's good.
00:11:33.29\00:11:34.62
Well, there is a catchphrase
in the world community saying,
00:11:34.66\00:11:38.99
you know, "Can
you pray the gay way?"
00:11:39.03\00:11:40.43
And they've really
taken that and run with it,
00:11:40.46\00:11:42.66
and, you know, they show that
all these people have prayed
00:11:42.70\00:11:45.30
and nothing happened.
00:11:45.33\00:11:46.67
But I think that Ron
really touched on it.
00:11:46.70\00:11:48.44
What God's looking for
is a relationship, you know?
00:11:48.47\00:11:51.94
And it's not just
the faith part that,
00:11:51.97\00:11:54.44
of course, He wants us
to exercise that faith,
00:11:54.48\00:11:56.18
but how do we
exercise that faith
00:11:56.21\00:11:58.45
unless we have a
relationship with Him.
00:11:58.48\00:12:00.58
And I think that that's
one of the profound ways
00:12:00.62\00:12:02.55
that God suffers long
is that He's willing for us
00:12:02.58\00:12:06.19
to fall down until we get it.
00:12:06.22\00:12:09.39
Well, knowing that
it's going to cost Him,
00:12:09.42\00:12:11.43
He had to struggle and pay
for that on the cross for me.
00:12:11.46\00:12:14.63
But He would rather
me struggle in that,
00:12:14.66\00:12:16.80
falling and getting back up,
00:12:16.83\00:12:18.50
in the process of
gaining the victory of that,
00:12:18.53\00:12:21.94
rather than to not
have a relationship with me.
00:12:21.97\00:12:24.31
You know, God could
just wave a magic wand
00:12:24.34\00:12:25.84
over your head
and just go, bing,
00:12:25.87\00:12:27.21
and all your problems are gone.
00:12:27.24\00:12:28.58
It's true.
00:12:28.61\00:12:29.94
Right, which
would really be nice,
00:12:29.98\00:12:31.31
but, you know,
it's that process,
00:12:31.35\00:12:33.31
like you said, the struggle,
00:12:33.35\00:12:35.05
you know, the chicken
00:12:35.08\00:12:36.42
that has to peck its
way out of the shell,
00:12:36.45\00:12:37.79
otherwise, it's
not going to live,
00:12:37.82\00:12:39.45
you know, it gains
strength by that process.
00:12:39.49\00:12:41.62
So I think that
each one of us recognizes
00:12:41.66\00:12:45.63
that prayer is
part of the solution,
00:12:45.66\00:12:48.20
it's not this, you
know, you just pray one time,
00:12:48.23\00:12:50.37
and it's gone.
00:12:50.40\00:12:51.73
Prayer is really about
encouraging the relationship
00:12:51.77\00:12:54.54
that I think that God
wants with each one of us
00:12:54.57\00:12:56.60
which took a long
time for me to learn.
00:12:56.64\00:12:58.67
Coming from sexual
addiction, I didn't know
00:12:58.71\00:13:00.41
how to relate to
anyone on an intimate level,
00:13:00.44\00:13:03.01
it was all physical.
00:13:03.04\00:13:04.38
And then, after
20 years of that,
00:13:04.41\00:13:06.41
I really didn't even
have any value for people
00:13:06.45\00:13:09.12
other than what they
meant to me physically.
00:13:09.15\00:13:12.05
And so God's amazing.
00:13:12.09\00:13:14.99
And that began
with Jesus Christ.
00:13:15.02\00:13:16.76
And as He encouraged
that relationship in me,
00:13:16.79\00:13:19.59
I started to realize that, "Wow.
00:13:19.63\00:13:21.13
He was more faithful
to me than I was to Him."
00:13:21.16\00:13:23.47
But He was
hanging in there. Yes.
00:13:23.50\00:13:24.93
He wasn't leaving, He
wasn't going anywhere.
00:13:24.97\00:13:27.10
And, you know what?
00:13:27.14\00:13:28.47
That kept me hanging on.
00:13:28.50\00:13:29.90
There were many
times I wanted to just turn
00:13:29.94\00:13:31.61
and run the
other way and just say,
00:13:31.64\00:13:33.34
"This is too hard.
I'm not doing this."
00:13:33.38\00:13:34.91
But His faithfulness
to me, His encouragement,
00:13:34.94\00:13:38.45
and the fact that He
wasn't going anywhere,
00:13:38.48\00:13:40.48
that's really what helped
to teach me what true intimacy
00:13:40.52\00:13:42.98
was all about.
00:13:43.02\00:13:44.59
Isn't that interesting how,
00:13:44.62\00:13:47.02
you know, we think
about how awesome God is,
00:13:47.06\00:13:50.49
how He's the
creator of the universe,
00:13:50.53\00:13:52.79
how He spoke the
world into existence,
00:13:52.83\00:13:57.40
and yet, He wants a
relationship with us.
00:13:57.43\00:14:00.60
It's like, who are we
00:14:00.64\00:14:02.30
that He would want
that relationship with us,
00:14:02.34\00:14:04.41
and yet He does,
and He does so much
00:14:04.44\00:14:07.64
that He is willing to let us...
00:14:07.68\00:14:10.61
When a baby is learning to walk,
00:14:10.65\00:14:12.98
the baby falls and gets up,
keeps walking, falls, gets up.
00:14:13.01\00:14:17.49
That's our
journey as Christians.
00:14:17.52\00:14:19.45
We fall, we get up.
00:14:19.49\00:14:21.26
You know, we fall
down but we get up.
00:14:21.29\00:14:24.46
You know, and
that is our journey.
00:14:24.49\00:14:26.83
And I think we
don't need to be so hard
00:14:26.86\00:14:32.23
on our brothers and sisters
00:14:32.27\00:14:33.60
who are struggling
with things that we can see.
00:14:33.64\00:14:36.67
A lot of times, you know,
we can't see those attitudes,
00:14:36.71\00:14:39.77
that covetousness, or pride,
and, you know, selfishness.
00:14:39.81\00:14:43.41
We don't necessarily see those,
00:14:43.45\00:14:45.85
but we can see
the fruits of that,
00:14:45.88\00:14:49.15
and we can see that,
00:14:49.18\00:14:50.89
you know, people
are dealing with issues
00:14:50.92\00:14:54.62
like homosexuality, bisexuality.
00:14:54.66\00:14:57.16
And so the thing for us to do is
00:14:57.19\00:14:59.49
to love people through,
00:14:59.53\00:15:01.83
but let them know
that there is a better way,
00:15:01.86\00:15:04.73
that God has a better plan.
00:15:04.77\00:15:06.10
Yeah.
00:15:06.13\00:15:07.47
How would you
compare your life now
00:15:07.50\00:15:10.81
with your life then?
00:15:10.84\00:15:14.61
Both of you. Great question.
00:15:14.64\00:15:16.51
This is Urban Report,
so let me make it real.
00:15:16.54\00:15:19.78
I didn't think
that it was possible
00:15:19.81\00:15:21.15
to live without sex.
00:15:21.18\00:15:22.65
And I remember
thinking to myself that
00:15:22.68\00:15:25.09
that's just unrealistic,
nobody could do that.
00:15:25.12\00:15:27.49
And what's so amazing
is it's been 18 years now
00:15:27.52\00:15:30.86
that I have been
walking with Jesus Christ,
00:15:30.89\00:15:32.56
and at night,
when I go to sleep,
00:15:32.59\00:15:34.33
Jesus is the last
person that I speak to,
00:15:34.36\00:15:36.36
and I had no idea
00:15:36.40\00:15:38.13
that Jesus would
be better than sex.
00:15:38.17\00:15:40.70
And that may not even
sound right to anybody else,
00:15:40.74\00:15:43.94
but I understand
that to me in that, "Wow,
00:15:43.97\00:15:46.47
how profound
that the peace of God,
00:15:46.51\00:15:48.41
the abiding peace of
Christ is much better
00:15:48.44\00:15:50.88
than anything that I
have ever experienced."
00:15:50.91\00:15:53.25
You know, there's
a verse in Proverbs,
00:15:53.28\00:15:55.58
and it talks
about the ways of men,
00:15:55.62\00:15:57.85
you know, lead to death, right?
00:15:57.89\00:15:59.82
But it talks about
how, even in the next verse,
00:15:59.85\00:16:01.82
it talks about
how even in laughter,
00:16:01.86\00:16:05.13
the heart is sorrowful,
and that's the gay life.
00:16:05.16\00:16:07.56
You know, if I
didn't meet somebody
00:16:07.60\00:16:09.66
when I was out at the bars
00:16:09.70\00:16:11.03
or whatever and
I come home alone,
00:16:11.07\00:16:12.47
I had to make sure
that the music was on,
00:16:12.50\00:16:14.67
and that I went to
bed, and, you know,
00:16:14.70\00:16:17.11
got up the next morning
and turned everything back on
00:16:17.14\00:16:19.37
because any moment of silence
was just a constant reminder
00:16:19.41\00:16:23.35
of the loneliness
that was in that life.
00:16:23.38\00:16:25.25
And I think to
myself, people say,
00:16:25.28\00:16:26.95
"Well, aren't you
dating? Aren't you married?"
00:16:26.98\00:16:28.88
You know, and I'm not.
00:16:28.92\00:16:30.25
You know, and yet, "Wow,
00:16:30.29\00:16:31.85
I've been more
alone in relationships
00:16:31.89\00:16:34.52
in the gay
culture than I ever was,
00:16:34.56\00:16:36.46
you know, even
being a single man
00:16:36.49\00:16:37.86
with Jesus Christ."
00:16:37.89\00:16:39.23
So that's a profound
awakening for me is that
00:16:39.26\00:16:43.00
the God is much
better, much deeper,
00:16:43.03\00:16:45.13
and much broader than just sex.
00:16:45.17\00:16:46.80
Yes, yes.
00:16:46.84\00:16:48.17
What about your difference now?
00:16:48.20\00:16:49.84
Well, I think we
have to acknowledge
00:16:49.87\00:16:52.41
that sin is attractive.
00:16:52.44\00:16:54.84
Otherwise, why would
anyone be tempted by it.
00:16:54.88\00:16:57.08
Right. Amen.
00:16:57.11\00:16:58.45
And so Satan is a
master at luring us with that,
00:16:58.48\00:17:02.55
you know, forbidden fruit.
00:17:02.58\00:17:05.05
And so I would
acknowledge that in the gay life
00:17:05.09\00:17:09.22
there was a lot of
fun, a lot of excitement,
00:17:09.26\00:17:12.19
a lot of self-gratification,
a lot of self,
00:17:12.23\00:17:16.26
but in between,
00:17:16.30\00:17:18.93
there are lots of times
of loneliness, and despair,
00:17:18.97\00:17:21.97
and depression, rejection.
00:17:22.00\00:17:24.71
But then that's offset again
by more stimulating activities
00:17:24.74\00:17:28.18
and parties and all of that.
00:17:28.21\00:17:30.55
But what I have found
00:17:30.58\00:17:34.28
on this side of the
equation is the Lord.
00:17:34.32\00:17:37.75
What I have now is joy.
00:17:37.79\00:17:39.72
I didn't find
joy in the gay life.
00:17:42.19\00:17:44.93
What I enjoyed was
things that were fleeting,
00:17:44.96\00:17:47.96
joy is lasting.
00:17:48.00\00:17:49.76
So I have joy, I have
peace, I have assurance,
00:17:49.80\00:17:54.80
I have a loving wife,
00:17:54.84\00:17:57.87
a relationship that is...
00:17:57.91\00:18:01.51
I'm never afraid
that I'll come home
00:18:01.54\00:18:03.61
and she'll be gone.
00:18:03.65\00:18:05.21
And you know, in our ministry,
we travel a great deal.
00:18:05.25\00:18:09.85
I pastor two churches at
home, I have a church district.
00:18:09.88\00:18:12.52
But I also am gone
exactly half of the time,
00:18:12.55\00:18:16.52
26 weeks out of the
year, I'm away from home.
00:18:16.56\00:18:19.89
My wife has never even
hinted that she distrusts me
00:18:19.93\00:18:24.87
or that she's afraid that
I might relapse or whatever.
00:18:24.90\00:18:28.97
And I would say that
the trust that she has in me
00:18:29.00\00:18:31.61
has been so encouraging,
00:18:31.64\00:18:34.14
and confirming, and solidifying.
00:18:34.18\00:18:36.85
I would never have
had that in the gay life
00:18:36.88\00:18:39.61
even when I'm with
someone in the gay life.
00:18:39.65\00:18:42.22
They're always wondering,
"Who you are looking at?
00:18:42.25\00:18:43.79
Why are you
looking at that person?
00:18:43.82\00:18:45.15
You should be
looking at me," and all that,
00:18:45.19\00:18:47.22
and it was very
difficult situation.
00:18:47.26\00:18:50.13
So that's another thing
that I find on this side
00:18:50.16\00:18:52.36
is that trust and faith.
00:18:52.39\00:18:55.53
And you know,
everything that God has
00:18:55.56\00:18:58.57
is based upon eternity.
00:18:58.60\00:19:00.47
What Satan offers is
based upon the present.
00:19:00.50\00:19:03.84
He's very
fleeting, very stimulating.
00:19:03.87\00:19:07.58
But what God
offers is long lasting
00:19:07.61\00:19:10.61
and it's for eternity.
00:19:10.65\00:19:12.45
And everything that
comes from God is genuine.
00:19:12.48\00:19:15.12
You know, like, the devil
only offers the counterfeit.
00:19:15.15\00:19:18.39
Exactly.
00:19:18.42\00:19:19.75
So that's what
3ABN is all about,
00:19:19.79\00:19:21.99
counteracting the counterfeit.
00:19:22.02\00:19:23.36
That's right. That's right.
00:19:23.39\00:19:24.73
That's right. For sure.
00:19:24.76\00:19:26.73
So you feel a
lot more secure now?
00:19:26.76\00:19:29.43
Yes.
00:19:29.46\00:19:30.90
You know, I claimed the
promise in Desire of Ages
00:19:30.93\00:19:33.10
where it talked about
the miracle when Jesus
00:19:33.13\00:19:36.04
turned the water into wine.
00:19:36.07\00:19:37.41
It talks about
that each new gift
00:19:37.44\00:19:40.58
that the receiver receives
00:19:40.61\00:19:42.34
is the promise of a
richer gift tomorrow.
00:19:42.38\00:19:45.18
You know, and I
take that as a promise.
00:19:45.21\00:19:47.15
You know, the
walk of a Christian
00:19:47.18\00:19:48.78
isn't necessarily easy,
00:19:48.82\00:19:51.25
but there is
profound joy along that path,
00:19:51.29\00:19:54.29
and where I am
today is much better
00:19:54.32\00:19:56.26
than where I was 10
years ago or 15 years ago,
00:19:56.29\00:19:59.29
and there is truth to that.
00:19:59.33\00:20:00.66
There's an abiding peace
00:20:00.70\00:20:02.03
that comes by
living for the Word of God,
00:20:02.06\00:20:04.37
and it doesn't mean that
00:20:04.40\00:20:05.73
it doesn't pull at
my nature and the things
00:20:05.77\00:20:08.20
that I used to like to do,
00:20:08.24\00:20:09.70
but when I follow
Jesus Christ, there is...
00:20:09.74\00:20:14.11
It's exponential, it's
better than it was before.
00:20:14.14\00:20:17.15
Yes, yes.
00:20:17.18\00:20:18.88
You know, we didn't...
00:20:18.91\00:20:20.55
We kind of touched a little bit
on your journey but not really.
00:20:20.58\00:20:23.89
Can you just give us a
synopsis of your journey?
00:20:23.92\00:20:25.59
Sure.
00:20:25.62\00:20:27.09
Well, from my
first conscious thought,
00:20:27.12\00:20:28.76
I was transgender.
00:20:28.79\00:20:30.63
I just never
bonded with my father
00:20:30.66\00:20:32.79
even before I was conscious.
00:20:32.83\00:20:34.16
So by the time I
became five and six years old,
00:20:34.20\00:20:36.97
I knew that I was
different than the other boys
00:20:37.00\00:20:39.20
in the neighborhood.
00:20:39.23\00:20:40.57
I had three sisters and a
mom, my dad was gone a lot.
00:20:40.60\00:20:43.47
But then when he was
home, he was raging, angry,
00:20:43.51\00:20:45.84
and abusive.
00:20:45.87\00:20:47.21
So for this little boy
00:20:47.24\00:20:48.58
needing to make this
transition to masculinity,
00:20:48.61\00:20:50.98
it was undesirable,
and so I rejected it
00:20:51.01\00:20:53.48
in my subconscious.
00:20:53.52\00:20:54.85
So I don't remember,
00:20:54.88\00:20:56.22
you know, making a
decision about that.
00:20:56.25\00:20:57.95
So I patterned after
my mom and my sisters,
00:20:57.99\00:21:00.69
and I played with the girls.
00:21:00.72\00:21:02.06
When I went to school,
00:21:02.09\00:21:03.43
the boys called
me sissy and queer,
00:21:03.46\00:21:04.89
and so that
pushed away the one thing
00:21:04.93\00:21:06.93
that I needed was
masculine affirmation.
00:21:06.96\00:21:09.40
And so I was happy
to play with the girls
00:21:09.43\00:21:11.33
and hopscotch and playing
with Barbie's and jump rope.
00:21:11.37\00:21:14.90
And so the immutable law,
if you would, is at puberty,
00:21:14.94\00:21:19.31
the Sex Ed is a
mystery, becomes the attraction.
00:21:19.34\00:21:21.71
So had I been
affirmed by the guys in school,
00:21:21.74\00:21:24.55
and had I, you know,
spent time with my dad
00:21:24.58\00:21:27.22
developing those masculine,
you know, affirmations,
00:21:27.25\00:21:31.32
then the Sex Ed would have been,
00:21:31.35\00:21:32.69
the mystery
would have been girls.
00:21:32.72\00:21:34.06
And so for me,
00:21:34.09\00:21:35.42
actually became
same sex interested.
00:21:35.46\00:21:38.09
So I didn't know
how to change it,
00:21:38.13\00:21:39.66
I didn't know how to fix it.
00:21:39.69\00:21:41.03
I knew it wasn't
according to God,
00:21:41.06\00:21:42.60
and I believed in God.
00:21:42.63\00:21:43.97
But I basically had the image
that God must be like my dad,
00:21:44.00\00:21:48.07
arbitrary, distant, unavailable.
00:21:48.10\00:21:51.24
So I served God not
because I loved Him,
00:21:51.27\00:21:53.44
I served Him
because I feared Him.
00:21:53.48\00:21:55.31
But eventually, this
led to, at 20 years old,
00:21:55.34\00:21:58.58
I walked out of the church,
I couldn't get my religion
00:21:58.61\00:22:01.02
and my
Christianity to come together,
00:22:01.05\00:22:02.75
and nobody was talking about it,
00:22:02.78\00:22:04.39
there were no resources.
00:22:04.42\00:22:05.75
So I went into the gay world.
00:22:05.79\00:22:07.16
Your religion
and your sexuality?
00:22:07.19\00:22:08.69
Yeah, what did I
say? Christianity.
00:22:08.72\00:22:10.16
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But, I know, yeah.
00:22:10.19\00:22:12.49
Right, right.
00:22:12.53\00:22:13.86
So then when I came
into the gay culture,
00:22:13.90\00:22:15.50
masculinity is more
valuable than femininity.
00:22:15.53\00:22:18.20
And so if I
worked out in the gym
00:22:18.23\00:22:20.14
and butched it up a
little bit, then I found that
00:22:20.17\00:22:22.27
I got all the attention
from men that I wanted.
00:22:22.30\00:22:24.67
And so, at 20 years old,
00:22:24.71\00:22:26.04
the transgender
thing just slipped away.
00:22:26.07\00:22:27.91
It just kind of resolved itself.
00:22:27.94\00:22:29.78
But now they have laws
00:22:29.81\00:22:31.15
to actually
protect children like me,
00:22:31.18\00:22:33.38
that if they are
eight and ten years old,
00:22:33.42\00:22:35.12
and they believe that
they are in the wrong sex,
00:22:35.15\00:22:36.95
they can start
receiving hormone blockers,
00:22:36.99\00:22:39.19
and, you know, the
hormones to help create in them
00:22:39.22\00:22:43.76
through the puberty process,
the sex that they desire.
00:22:43.79\00:22:46.19
So if all of a sudden, at 20,
00:22:46.23\00:22:47.56
now I'm finally
resolved to be male,
00:22:47.60\00:22:49.96
what if I had a sex
change at 16 years old?
00:22:50.00\00:22:52.17
Exactly. I mean,
there's no going back.
00:22:52.20\00:22:54.54
And it doesn't change your
sex, it just mutilates the body.
00:22:54.57\00:22:57.24
Right. That's crazy.
00:22:57.27\00:22:58.61
I mean, you shouldn't even
get married at such a young age
00:22:58.64\00:23:01.51
because your tastes changes,
your preferences change,
00:23:01.54\00:23:04.81
things that you
like change, you know?
00:23:04.85\00:23:07.62
So you are making a
huge life impacting decision.
00:23:07.65\00:23:13.36
Well, fortunately,
that wasn't available
00:23:13.39\00:23:14.72
when I was a kid.
00:23:14.76\00:23:16.09
And so by 20, that,
you know, resolved itself.
00:23:16.12\00:23:18.46
But I still think
that it was initiated
00:23:18.49\00:23:21.26
not because that
I was born that way.
00:23:21.30\00:23:23.03
I think that even
during those really,
00:23:23.06\00:23:25.97
you know, those early
times before I was conscious
00:23:26.00\00:23:28.90
that I had made this
decision in my own defense
00:23:28.94\00:23:31.87
to detach from my father.
00:23:31.91\00:23:35.14
What do you say to people
who say, "I was born that way.
00:23:35.18\00:23:39.68
I know I was born that way.
00:23:39.71\00:23:41.28
You can't tell
me that I wasn't."
00:23:41.32\00:23:43.15
How do you respond to that?
00:23:43.18\00:23:45.65
Because I know
you guys hear that.
00:23:45.69\00:23:47.02
Yes. We hear that.
00:23:47.06\00:23:48.52
We hear that
everywhere, and actually,
00:23:48.56\00:23:51.59
I would like to bring up
in answer to that question
00:23:51.63\00:23:55.03
that our ministry does
have a three-pronged approach.
00:23:55.06\00:23:57.83
Ah, you were
getting three-pronged.
00:23:57.87\00:24:00.70
I knew it was coming.
00:24:00.74\00:24:02.30
I love it.
00:24:02.34\00:24:03.67
I love that segue right into...
00:24:03.71\00:24:05.24
It's a private joke. You
just completed phase one.
00:24:05.27\00:24:07.68
We inspire people
with our testimonies,
00:24:07.71\00:24:10.18
and you started
us off with that.
00:24:10.21\00:24:12.11
And now you are making
a segue into second one
00:24:12.15\00:24:16.38
which is the
enlightenment phase.
00:24:16.42\00:24:19.72
And as we go
beyond our testimonies,
00:24:19.75\00:24:23.69
and we try to
educate the church,
00:24:23.73\00:24:26.33
we really, you know,
truth can bear scrutiny.
00:24:26.36\00:24:29.80
So this whole
idea of being born gay,
00:24:29.83\00:24:32.83
and once gay, always gay.
00:24:32.87\00:24:34.20
Well, that's an
interesting concept,
00:24:34.24\00:24:35.74
but if God
condemns homosexuality,
00:24:35.77\00:24:39.37
does He not have a solution?
00:24:39.41\00:24:41.88
And does God create us gay
and then condemn the behavior
00:24:41.91\00:24:45.68
because people say
that God made me this way,
00:24:45.71\00:24:47.82
He loves me this
way, and all of that.
00:24:47.85\00:24:50.12
So we do presentations
00:24:50.15\00:24:54.16
where we examine the statements,
00:24:54.19\00:24:56.73
we look for consistency,
and if this is true,
00:24:56.76\00:25:00.26
then that is true.
00:25:00.30\00:25:01.63
And so looking at
these various myths
00:25:01.66\00:25:05.33
and statements
that are out there,
00:25:05.37\00:25:08.07
that the whole
world has bought into,
00:25:08.10\00:25:10.11
socially, and
politically, and culturally,
00:25:10.14\00:25:12.84
and even the church
is now buying into this
00:25:12.87\00:25:15.81
because this is a question
00:25:15.84\00:25:17.31
we hear in the
church all the time.
00:25:17.35\00:25:18.78
"What about those
who were born gay?"
00:25:18.81\00:25:20.78
So we look at
science, we look at research,
00:25:20.82\00:25:24.55
we look at the surveys.
00:25:24.59\00:25:27.66
And the whole
idea of being born gay
00:25:27.69\00:25:29.69
actually came as a
political ploy and a hoax
00:25:29.72\00:25:33.86
which began back in 1985
00:25:33.90\00:25:36.23
because the gay
culture had made such advances
00:25:36.26\00:25:40.04
with being
accepted and celebrated.
00:25:40.07\00:25:43.34
They wanted
legal minority status,
00:25:46.11\00:25:48.81
three criteria,
00:25:48.84\00:25:50.35
that you are
discriminated group,
00:25:50.38\00:25:52.11
you are helpless to
do anything about that,
00:25:52.15\00:25:54.78
and you are born that way.
00:25:54.82\00:25:56.55
So they decided to
start tuning that horn
00:25:56.58\00:25:59.42
and you tune it loud
enough and long enough
00:25:59.45\00:26:01.62
and frequently
enough, and people start,
00:26:01.66\00:26:04.13
you know,
believing in the music,
00:26:04.16\00:26:05.49
they buy it.
00:26:05.53\00:26:06.86
And that's what has happened.
00:26:06.90\00:26:08.43
But the important
point, Yvonne, is this.
00:26:08.46\00:26:13.23
If someone is
thoroughly convinced
00:26:13.27\00:26:15.60
that he or she is born
gay, we can share information,
00:26:15.64\00:26:18.97
if they're not
receptive to that,
00:26:19.01\00:26:20.38
if they don't believe it,
00:26:20.41\00:26:21.74
if it's not, you
know, convincing to them,
00:26:21.78\00:26:26.41
then we go around that
00:26:26.45\00:26:27.82
because why get
caught up in a debate.
00:26:27.85\00:26:30.35
And we'd say simply,
00:26:30.39\00:26:31.72
you know, "Jesus
invites you like everyone else
00:26:31.75\00:26:35.09
to be born again.
00:26:35.12\00:26:36.86
So if you are born
that way, it's okay.
00:26:36.89\00:26:40.40
Jesus invites
you to be born again.
00:26:40.43\00:26:42.76
Everyone coming to Christ
must go through a conversion.
00:26:42.80\00:26:46.97
It's not conversion therapy,
it's conversion of the heart.
00:26:47.00\00:26:51.27
And conversion means change.
00:26:51.31\00:26:53.68
And so why do we
believe that gay people,
00:26:53.71\00:26:58.45
the LGBT issue is the only one
00:26:58.48\00:27:01.38
that cannot go
through a conversion?"
00:27:01.42\00:27:03.39
Why?
00:27:03.42\00:27:04.75
That is, you know,
Satan thinks he has God
00:27:04.79\00:27:06.65
over a barrel with this,
that this is the one thing
00:27:06.69\00:27:10.16
that God can't deal with.
00:27:10.19\00:27:12.16
And we are not
letting him get away with that
00:27:12.19\00:27:14.26
because we know
better, we've been there,
00:27:14.30\00:27:16.80
we've come out of it,
we know the power of God
00:27:16.83\00:27:19.40
that transformed the life.
00:27:19.43\00:27:21.07
And so we are showing that
a gay person can be born again
00:27:21.10\00:27:25.97
just as a straight
person can be born again.
00:27:26.01\00:27:29.91
Yes.
00:27:29.94\00:27:31.28
And we apply God's
remedy for sin to this sin issue
00:27:31.31\00:27:36.42
and it works.
00:27:36.45\00:27:37.79
Absolutely.
00:27:37.82\00:27:39.15
You know, it's interesting
because if God can't deliver
00:27:39.19\00:27:42.36
you from that, then
He is not omnipotent.
00:27:42.39\00:27:45.09
He's impotent. That's right.
00:27:45.13\00:27:46.46
He's impotent.
00:27:46.49\00:27:47.83
That we know He is
omnipotent. He is all powerful.
00:27:47.86\00:27:51.17
So we know that God can
deliver us from every sin.
00:27:51.20\00:27:55.87
And isn't like Satan to
try to portray God as impotent?
00:27:55.90\00:27:59.47
Absolutely. Of
course, of course.
00:27:59.51\00:28:00.84
Absolutely. His job
is to misrepresent God.
00:28:00.88\00:28:05.35
That's what he does.
00:28:05.38\00:28:06.92
He wants to make
God seem judgmental,
00:28:06.95\00:28:09.62
and mean, and
arbitrary, and all of that.
00:28:09.65\00:28:12.29
But God is love.
00:28:12.32\00:28:13.86
And what He's offering,
00:28:13.89\00:28:15.39
what He's
working through you guys
00:28:15.42\00:28:17.79
with Coming Out Ministries,
00:28:17.83\00:28:19.33
He's offering love
to those who are broken.
00:28:19.36\00:28:23.63
We all struggle with something.
00:28:23.67\00:28:25.83
So we can't
look down on any sin.
00:28:25.87\00:28:28.97
I mean, that's crazy.
00:28:29.00\00:28:30.74
We've created
this hierarchy of sin.
00:28:30.77\00:28:33.11
So, oh, if you're gay,
yeah, that's messed up,
00:28:33.14\00:28:36.28
if you're a gay.
00:28:36.31\00:28:37.65
Or if you...
00:28:37.68\00:28:39.01
You know, all these
different hierarchies of sin.
00:28:39.05\00:28:40.45
But the bottom
line is sin is sin.
00:28:40.48\00:28:43.05
Yup.
00:28:43.08\00:28:44.42
And we have to be
able to call it that,
00:28:44.45\00:28:45.95
acknowledge it for what it is,
00:28:45.99\00:28:48.52
and then give the remedy for it.
00:28:48.56\00:28:51.13
And the remedy is in the verse.
00:28:51.16\00:28:52.49
You know, you are talking
about 1 Corinthians Chapter 6,
00:28:52.53\00:28:55.03
he's talking about 9, and
10, and all the abominations
00:28:55.06\00:28:57.40
that won't be in heaven.
00:28:57.43\00:28:58.77
It's not just
limited to homosexuality.
00:28:58.80\00:29:01.10
It's licentiousness,
adultery, fornication.
00:29:01.14\00:29:04.57
You know, the world
is struggling with that,
00:29:04.61\00:29:06.84
even inside the church.
00:29:06.88\00:29:08.21
That's right.
00:29:08.24\00:29:09.58
And so we are all on
the same playing field,
00:29:09.61\00:29:10.95
but the answer is verse 11.
00:29:10.98\00:29:12.31
It says, "But
such were some of you."
00:29:12.35\00:29:13.68
"Were some of you."
00:29:13.72\00:29:15.05
Yes. We needed
to hear that verse.
00:29:15.08\00:29:16.52
We needed the
church to talk about that
00:29:16.55\00:29:18.92
because all we
were hearing is that
00:29:18.95\00:29:20.59
gays were going to
burn in hotter hell
00:29:20.62\00:29:21.99
than everybody else.
00:29:22.02\00:29:23.36
So I think that, the
takeaway, the condescension,
00:29:23.39\00:29:28.63
I think that still
exists in the churches of like,
00:29:28.66\00:29:31.47
you know, Christians
stand over these poor,
00:29:31.50\00:29:33.97
pathetic sexual
sinners when we're really
00:29:34.00\00:29:36.67
all in need of a savior.
00:29:36.71\00:29:38.04
For sure.
00:29:38.07\00:29:39.41
And I think it's important
for people to realize that,
00:29:39.44\00:29:41.88
you know, just
because you have a past,
00:29:41.91\00:29:43.75
whatever you have
done in your past,
00:29:43.78\00:29:45.81
God still wants you,
00:29:45.85\00:29:47.18
God still wants a
relationship with you.
00:29:47.22\00:29:48.78
And if you come to Him,
00:29:48.82\00:29:50.39
He won't leave you the way that,
00:29:50.42\00:29:52.45
when you first came to Him,
00:29:52.49\00:29:54.49
like, He will change
you if you allow Him to.
00:29:54.52\00:29:58.69
You know, the devil
wants us to believe that
00:29:58.73\00:30:00.86
we've gone too far,
00:30:00.90\00:30:02.23
and that God doesn't desire
00:30:02.26\00:30:03.60
a relationship
with us, you know?
00:30:03.63\00:30:04.97
But that's simply not the truth.
00:30:05.00\00:30:07.00
And God really wants to
save each and every one of us,
00:30:07.04\00:30:10.27
but sometimes we can
stand in the way of that
00:30:10.31\00:30:13.34
by our own
decisions and choices.
00:30:13.38\00:30:16.14
That's a worthwhile, Jay.
00:30:16.18\00:30:17.51
What Satan is constantly
trying to do in essence
00:30:17.55\00:30:19.58
is project upon
God, his own character.
00:30:19.61\00:30:22.55
That's right.
00:30:22.58\00:30:23.92
You see, Satan
wanted to be like God,
00:30:23.95\00:30:27.02
so he makes God look like Satan,
00:30:27.06\00:30:30.26
and he wants the
world to look at him as God.
00:30:30.29\00:30:34.46
We already hear these things,
like, these terrible storms
00:30:34.50\00:30:36.83
we've seen, hurricanes
and so forth, an act of God.
00:30:36.87\00:30:40.87
God is blamed for
all of these things,
00:30:40.90\00:30:43.24
and it's like the world
forgets there's a devil.
00:30:43.27\00:30:45.07
There again,
00:30:45.11\00:30:46.44
we are not letting
him get away with it.
00:30:46.47\00:30:47.81
That's right.
That's right. That's right.
00:30:47.84\00:30:50.65
See, I didn't forget
00:30:50.68\00:30:52.01
that's a social
worker thing in me.
00:30:52.05\00:30:53.62
So now how did you come out?
00:30:53.65\00:30:55.38
How did the Lord lead you
out of that gay lifestyle?
00:30:55.42\00:30:59.99
It's interesting.
00:31:00.02\00:31:01.59
We talk about how many times,
people have to hit rock bottom,
00:31:01.62\00:31:04.96
but it just seemed like
00:31:04.99\00:31:06.33
the devil has just
given me everything.
00:31:06.36\00:31:08.46
Good looking boyfriend,
big arms, big blue eyes,
00:31:08.50\00:31:11.97
big bank account,
00:31:12.00\00:31:13.34
we both drove
Mercedes convertibles,
00:31:13.37\00:31:15.00
had a condo on a
lake, a house with the pool.
00:31:15.04\00:31:17.54
I had the
accolades of the world,
00:31:17.57\00:31:19.47
and you know, from there,
00:31:19.51\00:31:21.14
because my sisters were praying,
00:31:21.18\00:31:22.64
I don't know if the
devil heard their prayers,
00:31:22.68\00:31:24.95
but it was like, he
couldn't give me enough.
00:31:24.98\00:31:26.85
And the Lord met
me right where I was.
00:31:26.88\00:31:29.78
It was amazing.
00:31:29.82\00:31:32.52
It was actually
00:31:32.55\00:31:33.89
through my
brother-in-law's baptism,
00:31:33.92\00:31:35.89
who I hated, and he
was a miserable Christian
00:31:35.92\00:31:38.13
that was, you know,
somebody that I can look at him
00:31:38.16\00:31:40.63
and just say,
00:31:40.66\00:31:42.00
"Your Christianity
is not working for you."
00:31:42.03\00:31:43.37
So when he remarried my sister,
00:31:43.40\00:31:46.53
I thought it was
the biggest mistake
00:31:46.57\00:31:47.90
that anyone
could have ever made.
00:31:47.94\00:31:49.27
And I went with my
condescending attitude
00:31:49.30\00:31:51.27
like, "I have a right,
00:31:51.31\00:31:52.64
and Christianity
is really for losers."
00:31:52.67\00:31:54.81
And so as I sat
there in that church
00:31:54.84\00:31:56.34
and this man came forward,
00:31:56.38\00:31:59.08
and he just
confessed to the church
00:31:59.11\00:32:00.48
how he'd been unfaithful,
00:32:00.52\00:32:02.22
he thanked the church for
taking care of his family,
00:32:02.25\00:32:05.02
and he said he wanted to
make it right with God today
00:32:05.05\00:32:07.06
so that he can make it
right to his wife the next day,
00:32:07.09\00:32:09.09
and there were
tears coming down my face.
00:32:09.12\00:32:11.89
That was the
beginning of my conversion,
00:32:11.93\00:32:15.00
watching this man that I hated.
00:32:15.03\00:32:16.56
Wow. Yeah.
00:32:16.60\00:32:17.93
Seeing the power
of God move in him.
00:32:17.97\00:32:19.30
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
00:32:19.33\00:32:21.30
And the power of
God moved in you.
00:32:21.34\00:32:23.54
That's beautiful.
00:32:23.57\00:32:24.91
Within three months, I
was baptized in the church.
00:32:24.94\00:32:26.81
See, that's the
power of a testimony.
00:32:26.84\00:32:28.61
Yes. That's right.
00:32:28.64\00:32:29.98
He was giving a
testimony and it affected.
00:32:30.01\00:32:32.61
That's right. Wow. Yeah.
00:32:32.65\00:32:34.65
It's a lot easier
to listen to somebody
00:32:34.68\00:32:36.79
who's been in a
particular situation.
00:32:36.82\00:32:39.49
Like, if somebody is
telling you about drugs,
00:32:39.52\00:32:42.99
and how to be drug free,
00:32:43.02\00:32:45.19
and they've never
touched a drug in their life,
00:32:45.23\00:32:47.16
they've never done anything,
00:32:47.20\00:32:48.53
but just because they
have this college education
00:32:48.56\00:32:50.47
or whatever the case maybe,
00:32:50.50\00:32:51.83
if they haven't experienced
that person who's on drugs,
00:32:51.87\00:32:56.30
or addicted to drugs
00:32:56.34\00:32:57.74
is less inclined to
pay them any attention.
00:32:57.77\00:33:00.48
You haven't experienced
what I've experienced.
00:33:00.51\00:33:03.55
And you guys have walked
00:33:03.58\00:33:05.11
through some things that people,
00:33:05.15\00:33:07.35
when you share your
journey and your testimony,
00:33:07.38\00:33:09.78
that they can identify
with, they can relate to,
00:33:09.82\00:33:12.65
and they see how
God has delivered you
00:33:12.69\00:33:16.62
from those situations.
00:33:16.66\00:33:17.99
Should I speak to
that for just a moment?
00:33:18.03\00:33:19.63
So many people that
have been raised in a church,
00:33:19.66\00:33:22.33
and stayed in the church,
and never had a wild side,
00:33:22.36\00:33:25.40
or so wild outs, I think
they don't have a testimony,
00:33:25.43\00:33:29.37
but they do.
00:33:29.40\00:33:31.17
What a powerful
testimony that they have
00:33:31.21\00:33:34.24
that the Lord has spared
them from all of these things.
00:33:34.28\00:33:37.71
So everyone has a testimony
if they will think about it.
00:33:37.75\00:33:41.28
It was never God's intention
that we go the direction
00:33:41.32\00:33:44.72
that we went, to go
through all of the pain.
00:33:44.75\00:33:47.16
My whole life was a
life of hurting people
00:33:47.19\00:33:50.06
or being hurt, rejecting
people or being rejected.
00:33:50.09\00:33:54.10
And God never intended for that.
00:33:54.13\00:33:57.43
And so people who have
followed the counsel of the Lord
00:33:57.47\00:34:01.00
from childhood,
happily stayed with the Lord,
00:34:01.04\00:34:03.51
and been faithful to Him,
00:34:03.54\00:34:05.07
they are not as
scarred as we are.
00:34:05.11\00:34:08.41
We are scarred, we
have collateral damage,
00:34:08.44\00:34:12.35
we have
consequences that we deal with.
00:34:12.38\00:34:14.98
To this day we have consequences
00:34:15.02\00:34:17.52
with our
families that were hurt,
00:34:17.55\00:34:19.95
and going through divorce,
00:34:19.99\00:34:21.76
and children raised
without their father,
00:34:21.79\00:34:23.73
and so for those
were painful things.
00:34:23.76\00:34:26.70
But I just wanted to stress
00:34:26.73\00:34:29.46
that you don't have to
have been a drug addict
00:34:29.50\00:34:32.47
or a homosexual or an adulterer
to have a powerful testimony
00:34:32.50\00:34:37.07
for how the Lord
can work in your life.
00:34:37.11\00:34:39.01
Very true. Good point.
00:34:39.04\00:34:40.58
What's been the response
to Coming Out Ministries
00:34:40.61\00:34:44.68
in the community
and in the church
00:34:44.71\00:34:47.02
because the culture,
today's culture says,
00:34:47.05\00:34:51.72
"I'm okay.
00:34:51.75\00:34:53.19
I'm gay, I'm okay.
00:34:53.22\00:34:55.26
Leave me alone.
I'm living my life."
00:34:55.29\00:34:57.63
So what's been the
response to you coming out
00:34:57.66\00:35:00.66
and you saying, "No,
God has a better plan."
00:35:00.70\00:35:04.50
What's been the response?
00:35:04.53\00:35:05.87
Well, we've had a
gambit of responses.
00:35:05.90\00:35:09.37
When the ministry started,
00:35:09.40\00:35:10.74
we were hopeful to basically
reach out to people like us
00:35:10.77\00:35:13.54
that needed to know that
there was redemption available,
00:35:13.58\00:35:16.04
and that God still loved us.
00:35:16.08\00:35:17.58
And when we came
into this ministry
00:35:17.61\00:35:20.58
which turned out to be
an international ministry
00:35:20.62\00:35:22.78
very quickly, all of a
sudden, now we realize that
00:35:22.82\00:35:25.59
there's two
opinions in the church.
00:35:25.62\00:35:27.06
There's one that still thinks
00:35:27.09\00:35:28.52
that it's the
above all abomination,
00:35:28.56\00:35:30.69
and then the other
people who think that
00:35:30.73\00:35:32.66
it's totally permissible
and everything in between.
00:35:32.69\00:35:35.70
And so it depends.
00:35:35.73\00:35:38.17
There's some areas,
00:35:38.20\00:35:39.53
some countries even where
presidents of conferences,
00:35:39.57\00:35:42.60
you know, are
doing whatever they can
00:35:42.64\00:35:44.31
to block us from coming
in just to tell our story.
00:35:44.34\00:35:47.08
And they use
these work agreements
00:35:47.11\00:35:50.98
to basically censor
our ministry to keep us out
00:35:51.01\00:35:53.42
rather than to even just
hear the story that we have.
00:35:53.45\00:35:57.42
But then, again,
most of the time,
00:35:57.45\00:35:59.65
when we do speak at churches
00:35:59.69\00:36:01.36
that are willing
to breach this topic,
00:36:01.39\00:36:04.89
you know, they are terrified.
00:36:04.93\00:36:06.26
And they are like, "I
don't know, I don't know.
00:36:06.29\00:36:07.90
What are they going to say?
00:36:07.93\00:36:09.30
We don't want them saying
the word sex in our sanctuary."
00:36:09.33\00:36:12.13
But when we come in...
00:36:12.17\00:36:15.17
Sometimes it's
almost just like that.
00:36:15.20\00:36:17.11
Right, no, no, but it's real.
00:36:17.14\00:36:18.47
It's real. Yeah.
00:36:18.51\00:36:19.84
But then when they actually
take time to listen to us,
00:36:19.87\00:36:22.48
when the weekend is done
00:36:22.51\00:36:23.91
and we've
accomplished everything
00:36:23.95\00:36:25.28
that we set out to do,
these people are shocked
00:36:25.31\00:36:27.85
and their hearts are
completely turned around.
00:36:27.88\00:36:29.62
They're like, "Wow.
00:36:29.65\00:36:30.99
I thought you were going
to talk about the gay issue.
00:36:31.02\00:36:32.69
But this is really about sin."
00:36:32.72\00:36:34.29
Yes.
00:36:34.32\00:36:35.66
And we've even been,
00:36:35.69\00:36:37.03
you know, told that
this is a present-day truth,
00:36:37.06\00:36:38.59
you know, talking
about the issues of today.
00:36:38.63\00:36:41.03
I think back to, Ellen
White made a comment about
00:36:41.06\00:36:44.13
Satan's repetitious plot
00:36:44.17\00:36:45.87
that as Satan
did to the Israelites
00:36:45.90\00:36:48.20
just before they were
going into the Canaan land,
00:36:48.24\00:36:50.21
she says that,
00:36:50.24\00:36:51.57
"He's going to do the same thing
00:36:51.61\00:36:52.94
with all of his effort, "
00:36:52.97\00:36:54.31
just as the
Israelites are setting
00:36:54.34\00:36:56.75
on the banks of the
heavenly Canaan land.
00:36:56.78\00:36:59.45
And so we know that sexual
sin is going to be rampant
00:36:59.48\00:37:02.12
at the end of time, and yet,
00:37:02.15\00:37:03.69
it's the issue that
we don't talk about.
00:37:03.72\00:37:05.45
Yeah. It is rampant.
00:37:05.49\00:37:07.26
Yeah. It is rampant. I mean...
00:37:07.29\00:37:09.79
LGBT isn't the
only game in the street.
00:37:09.82\00:37:11.23
The biggest one is pornography
and sexual sin in the church.
00:37:11.26\00:37:17.23
I think that we underestimate
00:37:17.27\00:37:21.37
Satan's pull through sex
00:37:21.40\00:37:24.21
because the Word
talks about, you know,
00:37:24.24\00:37:26.64
the sin outside the
body and against the body,
00:37:26.68\00:37:31.15
two types of sin.
00:37:31.18\00:37:33.88
The sins outside the
body and against the body.
00:37:33.92\00:37:37.22
And then the
ones against the body
00:37:37.25\00:37:38.59
are sexual
sins, and sexual sins,
00:37:38.62\00:37:41.26
that's the biggest,
00:37:41.29\00:37:42.69
I think, the biggest
snare that Satan has for us
00:37:42.72\00:37:47.20
in this day and time.
00:37:47.23\00:37:48.63
And it's interesting,
00:37:48.66\00:37:50.00
I think the reason that that is,
00:37:50.03\00:37:51.70
is because we are
relational beings.
00:37:51.73\00:37:53.64
Right.
00:37:53.67\00:37:55.00
So he knows that we
desire relationships,
00:37:55.04\00:37:58.31
and he offers a perverted way.
00:37:58.34\00:38:02.51
Instead of love, he offers lust.
00:38:02.54\00:38:04.61
And I think he plays to that
00:38:04.65\00:38:06.85
and something
that affects everybody.
00:38:06.88\00:38:08.22
Not everybody
smokes, not everybody drinks,
00:38:08.25\00:38:12.59
or whatever the case maybe,
00:38:12.62\00:38:14.16
but everybody desires
some form of relationship
00:38:14.19\00:38:17.63
and some form of interaction
00:38:17.66\00:38:19.86
and intimacy with
another human being.
00:38:19.89\00:38:22.86
Our young
people are being slimed
00:38:22.90\00:38:24.57
at a rapid rate by the media.
00:38:24.60\00:38:26.43
Things that they
look at on YouTube,
00:38:26.47\00:38:28.07
or even, you
know, unsupervised time,
00:38:28.10\00:38:31.84
you know, with the internet.
00:38:31.87\00:38:33.21
And so we have young people
00:38:33.24\00:38:34.58
that are as young as
second grade, third grade
00:38:34.61\00:38:36.75
that are already
addicted to pornography,
00:38:36.78\00:38:39.05
and the affects that
that has on children.
00:38:39.08\00:38:40.92
Second and third
grade? Absolutely.
00:38:40.95\00:38:42.52
What is it?
00:38:42.55\00:38:43.89
Ninety-percent of kids
00:38:43.92\00:38:45.25
have been exposed to pornography
00:38:45.29\00:38:46.72
from the ages of 8 to 16,
00:38:46.76\00:38:48.39
and mostly, while
doing their homework.
00:38:48.42\00:38:49.89
So any child
00:38:49.92\00:38:51.26
that is
unsupervised with the internet,
00:38:51.29\00:38:52.86
you know, there's no way that
00:38:52.89\00:38:54.50
they can handle this
onslaught that's coming at them
00:38:54.53\00:38:57.20
through the
pornography industry.
00:38:57.23\00:38:59.93
I think, you know, as
parents, we can tend to not...
00:38:59.97\00:39:05.87
You know, like, let the child go
00:39:05.91\00:39:08.24
and deal with the computer,
00:39:08.28\00:39:09.94
and you're doing something else,
00:39:09.98\00:39:11.55
and you're not thinking
what is that child seeing
00:39:11.58\00:39:16.42
because you're just thinking,
"Well, little, you know,
00:39:16.45\00:39:18.45
John is doing his homework
or Suzie is doing her homework,
00:39:18.49\00:39:21.02
and that's it."
00:39:21.06\00:39:22.39
But what you're saying is
that these children from eight,
00:39:22.42\00:39:27.20
eight years old
are being exposed
00:39:27.23\00:39:29.36
to all of this sexual stuff.
00:39:29.40\00:39:31.40
They don't even know
what to do with that.
00:39:31.43\00:39:32.83
Yeah.
00:39:32.87\00:39:34.20
They don't know
what to do with it.
00:39:34.24\00:39:35.57
The most shocking
statistics that I heard is that
00:39:35.60\00:39:37.61
only 17% of girls
00:39:37.64\00:39:39.41
and 3% of boys
have never seen porn.
00:39:39.44\00:39:43.01
Three-percent? That's right.
00:39:43.04\00:39:45.21
Wow. Yeah.
00:39:45.25\00:39:46.58
We have our young kids,
their fathers are pastors,
00:39:46.61\00:39:49.58
mothers nurses, you know,
they come from good homes,
00:39:49.62\00:39:51.82
they go to an Adventist academy,
00:39:51.85\00:39:54.42
and they come home,
00:39:54.46\00:39:55.79
and a friend
printed out a piece of porn
00:39:55.82\00:39:57.39
from their computer,
00:39:57.43\00:39:58.76
and these kids are
hooked in second grade.
00:39:58.79\00:40:01.13
You know, when I
was four years old,
00:40:01.16\00:40:03.13
and introduced to
sexuality through molestation,
00:40:03.16\00:40:08.04
I didn't know
how to process that.
00:40:08.07\00:40:09.80
That was my introduction to sex,
00:40:09.84\00:40:11.84
the same with pornography.
00:40:11.87\00:40:13.54
A four year old child is
not mature enough physically,
00:40:13.58\00:40:16.11
mentally, emotionally,
spiritually to even process.
00:40:16.14\00:40:18.35
Right.
00:40:18.38\00:40:19.71
So they are
going to be derailed,
00:40:19.75\00:40:22.22
they are going to be warped,
00:40:22.25\00:40:23.59
they are going to
have a warped perspective
00:40:23.62\00:40:25.69
about the whole thing,
00:40:25.72\00:40:27.39
and then sex
becomes a self-focus issue,
00:40:27.42\00:40:32.76
self-gratification,
00:40:32.79\00:40:34.13
when God meant it to
be a selfless experience.
00:40:34.16\00:40:39.47
You know, husband
and wife are together,
00:40:39.50\00:40:41.70
and they each are serving
00:40:41.74\00:40:43.91
the other and
pleasing the other.
00:40:43.94\00:40:45.84
It's exponentially
better than if you go into it
00:40:45.87\00:40:49.54
to serve and please yourself.
00:40:49.58\00:40:51.91
And so by the
time you are old enough
00:40:51.95\00:40:54.35
to really
understand all about sexuality,
00:40:54.38\00:40:57.42
a lot of these
children have already had years,
00:40:57.45\00:40:59.85
I did, years of wild
fantasies and imaginations,
00:40:59.89\00:41:03.73
uncontrollable
thoughts in the wrong direction,
00:41:03.76\00:41:06.83
and it created a
lifelong problem,
00:41:06.86\00:41:10.80
an addiction to
wrong kinds of thinking
00:41:10.83\00:41:13.87
which led me into
an addictive lifestyle.
00:41:13.90\00:41:16.37
And there wasn't
anything to counteract that.
00:41:16.40\00:41:19.97
I think that, you know,
00:41:20.01\00:41:22.31
lot of times we
don't talk about sex,
00:41:22.34\00:41:24.78
the church doesn't
want to talk about it,
00:41:24.81\00:41:27.52
parents might not
want to talk about it,
00:41:27.55\00:41:29.85
so the child is
learning from the streets
00:41:29.88\00:41:34.42
or learning from the computer.
00:41:34.46\00:41:35.79
And you don't want to
destroy their innocence.
00:41:35.82\00:41:38.03
You know, we hear that a lot,
00:41:38.06\00:41:39.49
you know, like,
what's the appropriate age
00:41:39.53\00:41:41.43
for a child to
come to one of our,
00:41:41.46\00:41:44.00
you know, presentations.
00:41:44.03\00:41:45.40
But I think to
myself, you know what?
00:41:45.43\00:41:47.14
These kids now,
they are hearing things
00:41:47.17\00:41:48.87
much earlier than we did
and have access to things
00:41:48.90\00:41:51.77
so much earlier.
00:41:51.81\00:41:53.14
So even in a parent's
naivety, they think that
00:41:53.17\00:41:55.18
they are protecting their
child by not talking about it,
00:41:55.21\00:41:57.91
but then are getting an
education from the world
00:41:57.95\00:42:00.05
or the kids in school.
00:42:00.08\00:42:01.62
And what's really
sad is two years ago
00:42:01.65\00:42:03.39
at the general
conference session,
00:42:03.42\00:42:05.15
President Wilson said that 49%
00:42:05.19\00:42:07.46
of our Adventist young people
00:42:07.49\00:42:09.62
think that homosexual
marriage is acceptable.
00:42:09.66\00:42:12.29
And so they are learning
and it's from the world,
00:42:12.33\00:42:14.90
but if we refuse to
talk about these issues,
00:42:14.93\00:42:17.93
then again it's like permission.
00:42:17.97\00:42:20.17
And that's what I
think Coming Out Ministries
00:42:20.20\00:42:22.60
is really not only good at
00:42:22.64\00:42:25.21
but that's our desire
is to like, let us come in,
00:42:25.24\00:42:27.68
let us start talking about
these really difficult subjects
00:42:27.71\00:42:30.68
to get the communication
open so that when we leave,
00:42:30.71\00:42:34.02
you know, we did the
dirty work and we talked about,
00:42:34.05\00:42:36.62
you know, the problem
00:42:36.65\00:42:38.49
and also to guide
into the solution,
00:42:38.52\00:42:41.29
so that churches
can find that healing
00:42:41.32\00:42:43.49
and families can
find that healing.
00:42:43.53\00:42:45.49
Anyone who,
00:42:45.53\00:42:46.86
young person that might
be privately struggling,
00:42:46.90\00:42:50.47
how must they feel
00:42:50.50\00:42:52.13
when they see their
church has brought in a seminar
00:42:52.17\00:42:55.94
dealing with this issue that
church is now talking about it,
00:42:55.97\00:43:00.04
there are resources,
there are people to talk to,
00:43:00.08\00:43:03.91
and so now they realize
00:43:03.95\00:43:06.21
they don't have
to struggle alone,
00:43:06.25\00:43:09.18
they don't have
to feel isolated.
00:43:09.22\00:43:11.25
Right. Exactly.
00:43:11.29\00:43:13.05
Because when you
struggle alone like that,
00:43:13.09\00:43:14.76
you become totally overwhelmed.
00:43:14.79\00:43:16.26
Yeah.
00:43:16.29\00:43:17.63
Well, you can't...
00:43:17.66\00:43:18.99
Who can you talk to?
00:43:19.03\00:43:20.36
Who can you go to?
00:43:20.40\00:43:21.73
I mean, it becomes,
00:43:21.76\00:43:23.10
to me it's such a
secretive kind of taboo thing
00:43:23.13\00:43:25.67
and what the
church has to do is say
00:43:25.70\00:43:28.20
"This is a safe place for you,
00:43:28.24\00:43:30.47
you are going to find
out how to deal with this."
00:43:30.51\00:43:34.71
I mean, you guys said
you didn't have the resources
00:43:34.74\00:43:37.58
when you were coming up
that you are offering now.
00:43:37.61\00:43:40.25
Tell us some of the
resources that you offer?
00:43:40.28\00:43:42.35
So well, Yvonne,
00:43:42.38\00:43:43.72
I thought you
really touched on that
00:43:43.75\00:43:45.25
that code word, "safe place,"
00:43:45.29\00:43:47.69
and that's really
the pro-gay theology
00:43:47.72\00:43:50.83
that's moving into Christianity
00:43:50.86\00:43:52.19
is talking about
creating a safe place
00:43:52.23\00:43:54.60
for people to basically
come out and to be loved.
00:43:54.63\00:43:57.53
Well, that's only part
of the equation or solution.
00:43:57.57\00:44:01.27
And it's interesting,
we were at a university,
00:44:01.30\00:44:03.57
and we were presenting,
00:44:03.61\00:44:05.17
and the idea came up again about
00:44:05.21\00:44:07.24
how do we create a
safe place on our campus.
00:44:07.28\00:44:10.05
And I thought it
was so profound this,
00:44:10.08\00:44:11.75
Professor Racis Henan,
00:44:11.78\00:44:13.11
he said, "I am not
approving of having a safe place
00:44:13.15\00:44:16.18
on our campus
00:44:16.22\00:44:17.55
because if you have a safe place
00:44:17.59\00:44:19.09
where somebody is free
to be or whatever," he says,
00:44:19.12\00:44:21.26
"That implies that
00:44:21.29\00:44:22.62
the rest of the
campus is not safe.
00:44:22.66\00:44:24.29
The whole campus
needs to be safe."
00:44:24.33\00:44:26.39
And what is safety?
00:44:26.43\00:44:28.10
Safety is in truth
00:44:28.13\00:44:29.46
because that's
where your safety is.
00:44:29.50\00:44:31.33
And so just to,
like, to be kind,
00:44:31.37\00:44:33.60
and to be loving
to somebody, and to,
00:44:33.64\00:44:36.64
you know, conform
them in their sin,
00:44:36.67\00:44:38.51
they are not
safe, they are lost.
00:44:38.54\00:44:42.54
I'm glad you said
something about truth,
00:44:42.58\00:44:44.91
because, you know, a
lot of people nowadays
00:44:44.95\00:44:46.45
are talking about,
00:44:46.48\00:44:47.82
"Well, just live
up to your truth."
00:44:47.85\00:44:49.55
Like, that is so subjective.
00:44:49.58\00:44:51.35
First of all, the
truth is the truth,
00:44:51.39\00:44:55.26
there's no your
truth, my truth, you know?
00:44:55.29\00:44:58.79
It's fact.
00:44:58.83\00:45:00.16
Yeah, the facts
are facts, you know.
00:45:00.20\00:45:02.16
Right, right.
00:45:02.20\00:45:03.53
So it's that whole
idea of syncretism,
00:45:03.57\00:45:07.64
take a little bit of
this, and little bit of that,
00:45:07.67\00:45:09.80
little bit of this,
and put it all together,
00:45:09.84\00:45:12.07
and make your own
way, your own truth,
00:45:12.11\00:45:15.04
your own doctrine, you know?
00:45:15.08\00:45:17.71
And it goes back
to Aleister Crowley,
00:45:17.75\00:45:19.65
"Do what thou wilt." What?
00:45:19.68\00:45:21.22
Shall be people of the law.
00:45:21.25\00:45:22.65
Do what you
want to do, you know?
00:45:22.68\00:45:24.99
But that's what's
gotten us to where we are now
00:45:25.02\00:45:28.62
because there are so many people
00:45:28.66\00:45:29.99
who are just doing
what they want to do
00:45:30.03\00:45:32.26
without realizing
that this is not...
00:45:32.29\00:45:34.93
God's plan is so
much better for you.
00:45:34.96\00:45:37.37
And I think that's really
where we need to come from.
00:45:37.40\00:45:40.50
Loving people but
teaching them the better way.
00:45:40.54\00:45:44.11
Yeah.
00:45:44.14\00:45:45.74
Imagine if we
took that philosophy
00:45:45.77\00:45:49.08
and applied it to chemistry.
00:45:49.11\00:45:51.88
Which philosophy?
Do what thou wilt?
00:45:51.91\00:45:53.48
Yes.
00:45:53.52\00:45:54.85
I mean, I just got that.
00:45:54.88\00:45:56.38
Right, ignoring the
facts, ignoring the laws,
00:45:56.42\00:46:00.36
the unchangeable
laws of God in physics,
00:46:00.39\00:46:03.43
unchangeable laws of God
in chemistry, in science.
00:46:03.46\00:46:06.66
These are all unchangeable laws,
00:46:06.70\00:46:08.93
and the whole world,
00:46:08.96\00:46:10.30
even atheists acknowledge that
these are unchangeable laws.
00:46:10.33\00:46:13.97
But when it comes to
morality, "Do what you want."
00:46:14.00\00:46:16.47
You know, there's
no need for a law.
00:46:16.50\00:46:19.67
And it's an
inconsistent way of thinking.
00:46:19.71\00:46:23.08
Absolutely.
00:46:23.11\00:46:24.45
So what tools do, does,
my dad, if my dad were here,
00:46:24.48\00:46:29.95
he would be
correcting me grammatically.
00:46:29.98\00:46:31.89
What tools does
Coming Out Ministries offer
00:46:31.92\00:46:36.36
to help people to get free
00:46:36.39\00:46:41.16
from the entrapment of
sexual sin or of sin period,
00:46:41.20\00:46:44.27
just sin across the board?
00:46:44.30\00:46:45.63
What tools do you offer?
00:46:45.67\00:46:47.00
First tool that
comes to my mind is our...
00:46:47.04\00:46:48.37
Number three, I like
that. It's a very powerful.
00:46:48.40\00:46:52.61
Good, good.
00:46:52.64\00:46:53.98
See, come on.
00:46:54.01\00:46:55.34
Good, good, good.
00:46:55.38\00:46:56.71
So the first in inspiring,
the second one is enlightening,
00:46:56.75\00:46:59.98
and the third is equipping.
00:47:00.02\00:47:02.22
So on our website,
00:47:02.25\00:47:03.59
I think the number one tool
that we really are promoting
00:47:03.62\00:47:05.95
is our documentary,
"Journey interrupted."
00:47:05.99\00:47:08.56
It's one hour
story of five individuals
00:47:08.59\00:47:11.29
and thanks to you,
Yvonne, you shared that on 3ABN.
00:47:11.33\00:47:16.70
Oh, praise the Lord.
00:47:16.73\00:47:18.07
Or was it Dare to Dream?
00:47:18.10\00:47:19.43
Both. Yes.
00:47:19.47\00:47:20.80
That's right, that's right.
00:47:20.84\00:47:22.17
We simulcasted.
Simulcasted. That's right.
00:47:22.20\00:47:23.54
And that was huge
for us, yeah. Powerful.
00:47:23.57\00:47:25.04
Oh, my goodness.
00:47:25.07\00:47:27.01
People need to be
able to watch that.
00:47:27.04\00:47:28.41
How can they see that,
if they want to see that?
00:47:28.44\00:47:31.35
'Cause that's one of the most
00:47:31.38\00:47:32.71
powerful
documentaries out there.
00:47:32.75\00:47:34.52
You go to
journeyinterrupted.com.
00:47:34.55\00:47:36.12
It's now been translated
into 10 different languages.
00:47:36.15\00:47:39.29
Amazing.
00:47:39.32\00:47:40.72
Is it on your website
too? Or can they find?
00:47:40.76\00:47:42.09
Yeah.
00:47:42.12\00:47:43.46
So we just put up your website,
00:47:43.49\00:47:44.89
and they can find it
through your website.
00:47:44.93\00:47:47.70
Sure. Right.
00:47:47.73\00:47:49.06
Or just go to
journeyinterrupted.com.
00:47:49.10\00:47:51.17
This is something that
is so fascinating to us
00:47:51.20\00:47:53.50
because we did grow up in
a church with no resources.
00:47:53.54\00:47:57.51
And so we come into the
church with this experience
00:47:57.54\00:48:03.41
that in the world as
a terrible experience,
00:48:03.45\00:48:07.12
but how
educational it was for us.
00:48:07.15\00:48:10.39
And so now we are being asked
00:48:10.42\00:48:12.92
and we are
producing the very resources
00:48:12.95\00:48:16.83
that would have
been so helpful to us
00:48:16.86\00:48:19.46
in our struggle.
00:48:19.49\00:48:20.83
And so the Lord
may have never...
00:48:20.86\00:48:23.13
I'm sure the Lord
never intended for us
00:48:23.16\00:48:25.43
to go the route that we went.
00:48:25.47\00:48:27.40
We thwarted plan A, we
thwarted plan B, C, and D.
00:48:27.44\00:48:31.11
I sometimes think I
must be on plan Z right now.
00:48:31.14\00:48:35.04
But each of God's plans work.
00:48:35.08\00:48:39.55
And so He takes the mistakes
of your past just like Satan,
00:48:39.58\00:48:44.12
when he get someone like
me with a degree in theology,
00:48:44.15\00:48:47.32
and converts me to his side,
00:48:47.36\00:48:49.99
don't you know that all
of Satan's hosts rejoice
00:48:50.03\00:48:53.09
that they took
one of God's trained
00:48:53.13\00:48:55.30
to be a minister and
used him for corruption.
00:48:55.33\00:48:58.20
But then God takes someone
that has been on Satan side
00:48:58.23\00:49:01.80
and turns that
person around to His glory.
00:49:01.84\00:49:04.67
It's the great
controversy going back and forth
00:49:04.71\00:49:07.24
between the two.
00:49:07.28\00:49:08.74
And it just amazes
me how God can take us
00:49:08.78\00:49:12.01
from degraded
self-destructive pasts
00:49:12.05\00:49:15.12
and turn all of
that around to His glory.
00:49:15.15\00:49:17.52
Yeah.
00:49:17.55\00:49:18.89
And so now we are
creating a lot of resources.
00:49:18.92\00:49:21.69
Thanks in great part to
3ABN and Dare to Dream Network.
00:49:21.72\00:49:26.90
You have afforded us
so many opportunities
00:49:26.93\00:49:29.06
to create these
programs in 30 minute segments,
00:49:29.10\00:49:33.80
one hour segments that
are going around the world
00:49:33.84\00:49:36.50
and people are
really, really blessed,
00:49:36.54\00:49:38.04
and we thank you for that.
00:49:38.07\00:49:39.41
Oh, well, we praise
the Lord for you guys.
00:49:39.44\00:49:40.78
You know, one of the
ways that those still work is,
00:49:40.81\00:49:42.61
it's really incredible.
00:49:42.64\00:49:43.98
People will say,
00:49:44.01\00:49:45.35
"You know, what can we do
to help educate the kids?"
00:49:45.38\00:49:46.88
And we hand them the gay puzzle,
00:49:46.92\00:49:48.68
you know, which we
did on Dare to Dream.
00:49:48.72\00:49:50.05
Yes.
00:49:50.09\00:49:51.42
And that 30 minute
segments, and I say,
00:49:51.45\00:49:52.79
"Play just one of them.
00:49:52.82\00:49:54.16
Pick one, you know?
00:49:54.19\00:49:55.52
Masturbation, pornography,
00:49:55.56\00:49:56.89
you know, restoring
same sex relationships,
00:49:56.93\00:50:00.03
whatever that is."
00:50:00.06\00:50:01.40
I say, "Then just play
it, and then we can dialogue."
00:50:01.43\00:50:03.87
And with young people,
00:50:03.90\00:50:05.23
they are really
wanting to start talking
00:50:05.27\00:50:08.70
about these
really difficult issues.
00:50:08.74\00:50:10.21
And so I call them
conversation starters.
00:50:10.24\00:50:12.51
Yes.
00:50:12.54\00:50:13.88
So just one pack
of the gay puzzle,
00:50:13.91\00:50:15.24
one or two is
really great to introduce
00:50:15.28\00:50:16.91
in a Sabbath school setting.
00:50:16.95\00:50:18.31
What's great is you guys did
00:50:18.35\00:50:20.62
couple of
seasons of Pure Choices
00:50:20.65\00:50:22.75
which is our
sexual purity program
00:50:22.78\00:50:25.25
on Dare to Dream,
00:50:25.29\00:50:26.62
and what you
brought to that was just,
00:50:26.65\00:50:29.82
it was incredible
because people opened up
00:50:29.86\00:50:32.69
about their lives,
00:50:32.73\00:50:34.20
and the word of
their testimonies, again,
00:50:34.23\00:50:36.97
powerful testimonies.
00:50:37.00\00:50:38.83
You guys, and the people
00:50:38.87\00:50:40.20
that you brought
to those programs
00:50:40.24\00:50:42.74
just opened up, shared.
00:50:42.77\00:50:45.14
You know, I
think about Walt Heyer.
00:50:45.17\00:50:46.91
Yeah.
00:50:46.94\00:50:48.28
I mean, he was just...
00:50:48.31\00:50:50.35
Transgender that
had the operation,
00:50:50.38\00:50:53.62
and then came back
to Jesus after all that,
00:50:53.65\00:50:56.82
and just, I mean,
it's just incredible.
00:50:56.85\00:50:58.65
All of these stories,
those show the power of God
00:50:58.69\00:51:02.62
in broken lives.
00:51:02.66\00:51:04.19
You know, there's
another new aspect
00:51:04.23\00:51:05.96
that we are
recognizing and bringing in
00:51:05.99\00:51:08.36
to the ministry now,
00:51:08.40\00:51:09.73
and that's actually
the testimonies of parents
00:51:09.76\00:51:12.77
that have children that are LGBT
00:51:12.80\00:51:14.34
because I think
parents suffer a greater guilt
00:51:14.37\00:51:17.41
than even we did
and condemnation.
00:51:17.44\00:51:20.28
And the parents are
the ones that are terrified
00:51:20.31\00:51:22.74
to even to
approach us for fear that
00:51:22.78\00:51:24.15
if somebody saw
them talking to us
00:51:24.18\00:51:25.95
that they would figure
out that their child was gay,
00:51:25.98\00:51:28.18
and then the fact that
they feel like they have no one
00:51:28.22\00:51:30.62
that would understand them.
00:51:30.65\00:51:32.15
And so they struggle alone,
and their anxiety is great.
00:51:32.19\00:51:35.99
And so we just did
a program last weekend
00:51:36.02\00:51:39.19
where we
actually had Anna's mother
00:51:39.23\00:51:41.40
from our film
actually give her testimony
00:51:41.43\00:51:43.53
about what that looks like
00:51:43.57\00:51:44.90
living with a
daughter that is still gay
00:51:44.93\00:51:46.70
and she went through
00:51:46.74\00:51:48.07
the seven
different stages of grief,
00:51:48.10\00:51:49.44
but I see that is definitely
00:51:49.47\00:51:51.97
a needful aspect
of this ministry too
00:51:52.01\00:51:54.41
is to provide
community for people
00:51:54.44\00:51:56.71
that are praying
for their loved ones,
00:51:56.75\00:51:59.11
for their children, and to
also reach out to them as well.
00:51:59.15\00:52:02.02
Yes, and resource too.
00:52:02.05\00:52:03.69
You know, to come to
you and say, "What do I do?
00:52:03.72\00:52:06.15
My child wants me
to go to the wedding,
00:52:06.19\00:52:09.16
go to the gay wedding.
00:52:09.19\00:52:10.53
What do I do?
00:52:10.56\00:52:11.89
You know, how am I
supposed to let my friends know
00:52:11.93\00:52:15.86
or you know, how do I...
00:52:15.90\00:52:17.23
My child just came out to me.
00:52:17.27\00:52:19.50
How do I respond to that?"
00:52:19.53\00:52:20.87
I mean all of these questions
we know that parents have,
00:52:20.90\00:52:24.01
and they need to
have someone to ask.
00:52:24.04\00:52:27.04
You guys are the ones. Yeah.
00:52:27.08\00:52:28.81
And one of our books is,
00:52:28.84\00:52:31.35
"Straight Answers
to the Gay Questions."
00:52:31.38\00:52:33.95
Having been there, 20
years of writing responses
00:52:33.98\00:52:39.15
to people who have
legitimate questions.
00:52:39.19\00:52:41.89
And when I say straight answers,
00:52:41.92\00:52:43.46
it's AIT meaning,
straight from the Word of God,
00:52:43.49\00:52:47.00
it's not straight
as opposed to gay.
00:52:47.03\00:52:48.53
It's a play on the words.
00:52:48.56\00:52:49.93
It's biblical
answers to the gay questions,
00:52:49.96\00:52:53.57
and that's one of our
resources that's very in-depth
00:52:53.60\00:52:57.07
and very comprehensive
and so we have books,
00:52:57.11\00:53:00.04
and DVDs, and tracks and
many different resources.
00:53:00.08\00:53:03.24
Wonderful.
00:53:03.28\00:53:04.78
Oh, I thought you were
going to say something.
00:53:04.81\00:53:06.55
It has been amazing.
00:53:06.58\00:53:07.92
I was going to talk
about the tracks a little bit.
00:53:07.95\00:53:09.62
We have tracks
that can be handed out,
00:53:09.65\00:53:11.39
and one of them is the
Coming Out Ministries track
00:53:11.42\00:53:14.26
which basically gives a
story about Anna's mother,
00:53:14.29\00:53:17.19
and Anna is, you
know, a lesbian woman,
00:53:17.23\00:53:19.69
and she brings
her girlfriend home,
00:53:19.73\00:53:21.40
you know, for the weekend
00:53:21.43\00:53:22.80
and what that
was like for the mom,
00:53:22.83\00:53:24.17
and a simple task of
just making biscuits,
00:53:24.20\00:53:27.00
you know, with her
daughter's girlfriend
00:53:27.04\00:53:29.30
was just overwhelming
for this young woman,
00:53:29.34\00:53:31.64
and it broke her
to tears thinking,
00:53:31.67\00:53:33.44
"I know how you
your mom feels about us,
00:53:33.48\00:53:35.41
and yet, she loved me."
00:53:35.44\00:53:36.78
And so our tracks are
also pretty quick and short,
00:53:36.81\00:53:40.28
and they are easy to
leave in very strategic places.
00:53:40.32\00:53:45.19
But they also, I think
help to open up conversations
00:53:45.22\00:53:49.22
and to find out
00:53:49.26\00:53:50.59
who Coming Our
Ministries really is.
00:53:50.63\00:53:51.96
That's awesome.
00:53:51.99\00:53:53.33
And so the best way to reach you
00:53:53.36\00:53:55.23
is on your website?
00:53:55.26\00:53:57.17
ComingOutMinistries?
00:53:57.20\00:53:59.33
ComingOutMinistries.org.
00:53:59.37\00:54:02.10
Good.
00:54:02.14\00:54:03.47
And I think we
have phone numbers too
00:54:03.51\00:54:05.17
on the screen now
too so that you can call,
00:54:05.21\00:54:08.54
or go to the
website, you can donate
00:54:08.58\00:54:12.51
because they need
funds to help to continue
00:54:12.55\00:54:15.68
developing these resources.
00:54:15.72\00:54:17.05
Thank you.
00:54:17.09\00:54:18.42
And to travel,
00:54:18.45\00:54:19.79
and to do the
things that you guys do.
00:54:19.82\00:54:21.16
You have to have funds.
00:54:21.19\00:54:22.52
So please support this ministry.
00:54:22.56\00:54:24.16
This is a very, very
important ministry to support.
00:54:24.19\00:54:27.76
As you know this situation is,
00:54:27.80\00:54:31.70
they are going up
against society at large
00:54:31.73\00:54:35.24
because society
at large is saying,
00:54:35.27\00:54:37.74
"We don't need to
change, and don't even,
00:54:37.77\00:54:39.71
do not dare to tell us
that we can or need to change."
00:54:39.74\00:54:45.35
And so you guys
are on the frontlines.
00:54:45.38\00:54:47.72
We really, you know,
appreciate what you do,
00:54:47.75\00:54:51.79
and we thank you for that.
00:54:51.82\00:54:53.15
Do you have any closing thoughts
00:54:53.19\00:54:54.82
for our viewers before we go?
00:54:54.86\00:54:57.23
Our time is
almost up. It's amazing.
00:54:57.26\00:54:58.73
I know we have
opposition in some places,
00:54:58.76\00:55:03.16
but for every
door that's closed,
00:55:03.20\00:55:04.90
we have probably three
or four that are opened.
00:55:04.93\00:55:08.50
From here, next week,
00:55:08.54\00:55:09.87
we are going to be in Australia,
00:55:09.90\00:55:11.91
New Zealand for
three or four weeks,
00:55:11.94\00:55:13.98
we come back for
a couple of weeks,
00:55:14.01\00:55:15.51
then we are going to Cuba.
00:55:15.54\00:55:17.58
And places where you think
00:55:17.61\00:55:18.95
they probably don't
even deal with this issue.
00:55:18.98\00:55:21.75
Now this is a global issue
as it was in the days of Lot,
00:55:21.78\00:55:26.49
Luke 17, "Even so
will it be in the day
00:55:26.52\00:55:28.96
when the Son of
Man shall be revealed."
00:55:28.99\00:55:31.36
And that's what we are seeing.
00:55:31.39\00:55:32.73
And we are trying
to meet this issue
00:55:32.76\00:55:34.10
knowing that it
is a last day issue,
00:55:34.13\00:55:36.50
it is a sign of the
soon coming of Jesus.
00:55:36.53\00:55:38.83
And God is not willing
that any should perish,
00:55:38.87\00:55:41.70
that includes gay people.
00:55:41.74\00:55:43.17
That's right. Absolutely.
00:55:43.20\00:55:44.57
Absolutely.
00:55:44.61\00:55:46.74
I think about the
person that may be watching,
00:55:46.78\00:55:49.71
that was maybe in
the valley of decision,
00:55:49.74\00:55:51.81
or maybe not in a
valley of decision,
00:55:51.85\00:55:54.25
maybe their decision is that
they are fine the way they are.
00:55:54.28\00:55:56.79
And you know,
00:55:56.82\00:55:58.45
I would like to
speak to that person that,
00:55:58.49\00:56:00.96
you know, not to
close off any of the options
00:56:00.99\00:56:03.69
that God has for
them, and God's way,
00:56:03.73\00:56:05.86
as Ron said, has to be better,
00:56:05.89\00:56:07.63
and it has to be
better, and He says,
00:56:07.66\00:56:09.16
"Taste and see that
the Lord is not only good."
00:56:09.20\00:56:11.30
He says, "But put
Me to the test, put Me,
00:56:11.33\00:56:13.30
you know, find out
if My way is better."
00:56:13.34\00:56:16.37
And you know,
00:56:16.40\00:56:17.74
something that was a
really tough one for me
00:56:17.77\00:56:20.18
because I wasn't interested
in giving up my identity,
00:56:20.21\00:56:22.94
I wasn't interested in
giving up my boyfriend,
00:56:22.98\00:56:25.18
but as I pursued Jesus Christ
and as I was experiencing Him,
00:56:25.21\00:56:29.05
there was something
that I couldn't deny,
00:56:29.08\00:56:30.79
and it continued to
draw me closer to it.
00:56:30.82\00:56:33.39
And so, you know, I
would just hope that
00:56:33.42\00:56:35.92
that people would just be
willing to be objective enough
00:56:35.96\00:56:38.33
to just say, "All right.
00:56:38.36\00:56:39.79
This is another option.
00:56:39.83\00:56:41.16
Let me see what
this is all about."
00:56:41.20\00:56:42.53
And so, you know, we
all have the right to choose
00:56:42.56\00:56:44.83
whatever path we want to go on,
00:56:44.87\00:56:46.20
and so instead
of destroying people
00:56:46.23\00:56:48.70
that don't
necessarily agree with you,
00:56:48.74\00:56:51.01
or making that your angst,
00:56:51.04\00:56:52.44
why not find out
what that option is
00:56:52.47\00:56:54.48
because Coming Out Ministries
isn't here to drag people,
00:56:54.51\00:56:57.68
you know, into heaven
kicking and screaming.
00:56:57.71\00:56:59.41
We wanted to be your
decision 'cause it has to be.
00:56:59.45\00:57:02.78
You know, it would be
that way with God for us.
00:57:02.82\00:57:04.25
Yeah. Right.
00:57:04.29\00:57:06.55
Right. Praise the Lord.
00:57:06.59\00:57:07.96
Jay, you have a closing thought?
00:57:07.99\00:57:09.56
Just that basically,
just accept Christ today.
00:57:09.59\00:57:13.26
I mean, why put
something off for tomorrow
00:57:13.29\00:57:15.66
that you can do today
00:57:15.70\00:57:17.03
that can transform
your life for the better.
00:57:17.07\00:57:19.70
You know, there's nothing better
00:57:19.73\00:57:21.07
than a
relationship with Jesus Christ.
00:57:21.10\00:57:22.84
Amen.
00:57:22.87\00:57:24.21
We always say on Dare
to Dream and Urban Report
00:57:24.24\00:57:27.48
that God has a plan for you.
00:57:27.51\00:57:29.74
He has a plan for you,
and His way is so much better
00:57:29.78\00:57:33.15
than anything you can imagine.
00:57:33.18\00:57:35.52
So just trust Him.
00:57:35.55\00:57:36.89
Know that He's got this
plan, know that if you seek Him
00:57:36.92\00:57:40.39
and bring Him into the
mix, invite God into your life
00:57:40.42\00:57:43.86
to show you a better way.
00:57:43.89\00:57:46.63
You've seen from
Pastor Ron and from Mike
00:57:46.66\00:57:49.96
that God has led
them into the better way,
00:57:50.00\00:57:53.17
and He would do
the same for you.
00:57:53.20\00:57:55.10
He's doing it for us,
and if you don't know Jesus,
00:57:55.14\00:57:57.87
accept Him now.
00:57:57.91\00:57:59.24
Thank you for watching.
Thank you for being with us.
00:57:59.27\00:58:01.64
Join us next time
00:58:01.68\00:58:03.01
'cause it wouldn't
be the same without you.
00:58:03.04\00:58:04.81