Stay tuned to find out
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how one man's journey ended
up having a worldwide impact.
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My name is Jason Bradley,
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello and
welcome to Urban Report.
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My guest today
is Pastor CA Murray,
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and he is the General
Manager of the 3ABN Proclaim!
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Network.
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He is also one of my role models
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and mentors.
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And he has a very
powerful testimony.
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Welcome to Urban
Report, Pastor Murray.
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Good to be here.
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I'm actually a fan of this show.
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Oh.
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Well, praise the
Lord, praise the Lord.
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You know, we go way
back as far back as I can go.
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Yeah.
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And you actually baptized my mom
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while she was pregnant with me.
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Is that so.
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That's how far back we
go, and I appreciate that.
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But, you know, our viewing
audience knows you very well.
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I'm sure they've
seen you on 3ABN,
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I'm sure they've
seen you on Free Indeed.
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And we want to get to know
the man behind 3ABN Proclaim!
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Oh, have mercy. So
where did you grow up?
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Where are you
from? Buffalo, New York.
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Okay. Yeah.
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Grew up in the Emmanuel Temple
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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in Buffalo, New York,
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baptized at age 10,
only one in my family.
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Wow.
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Wait a minute,
you were the only one
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in your family to be baptized?
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Really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
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And how long did
you live in Buffalo?
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Until I went off to Oakwood,
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went to Erie Community College
on a basketball scholarship,
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and then to Alliance College
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in Cambridge
Springs, Pennsylvania,
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on a basketball scholarship,
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broke my ankle
twice playing basketball
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on a Friday night.
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And the pastor said,
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"You know, Lord let you
break your ankle to keep it
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from breaking your neck."
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I got the message,
transferred to Oakwood College
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and graduated
from Oakwood College.
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Wow. Yeah.
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Now going back to
when you were 10 years old,
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how did you come
in to the message?
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Oh, we lived next door to
a family, the Riles Family.
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We could play with
them during the week,
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couldn't play
with them on Saturday
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and couldn't understand that.
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We just knew that on Saturday,
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they couldn't come
out and play with us,
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and we couldn't go in their yard
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and play with them.
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We see them all pile
in the car and disappear
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and go someplace
we didn't know where.
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We moved to another part of town
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and moved right
across the street
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from another family with
that same weird behavior.
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Play with them during
the week, on Saturday,
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everybody piles in the car
and disappears for the day.
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And the son was my age,
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the daughter
was my sister's age,
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she's a year and
a half older than I.
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And so I asked the son,
"Steven, where do you guys go
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when you do this
disappearing thing,
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you know, on Saturday mornings?
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He said, "We go
to Sabbath school,"
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which meant nothing to me.
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So I said "Okay, next
week when you disappear,
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I want to go with you."
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And so I went with him,
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and I went to my
first Sabbath school.
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I'll tell you a quick story.
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The teacher was
Mildred Willis Gil.
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I guess she was about 18 or 19,
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maybe 20, certainly no
older, and a pretty thing.
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And when you got
the question right
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that she'd asked you,
she would stroke your cheek
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or put her hand on your shoulder
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and say, "Very good."
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Uh-huh.
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And I saw her doing that
and I said, "Ooh, I like that."
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You know, so, like, next week,
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I'm getting one
of those, you know.
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So I got to my Sabbath school
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and I studied, studied, studied.
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She asked the first question,
I, like, put my hand up,
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you know, and
answered it correctly,
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and she said, "Very good."
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I said, "Okay, I'm coming
to Sabbath school forever,
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you know."
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About a year or two
later, she married Conrad Gil,
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Pastor Conrad Gil, and
all of us as young boys,
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we hated him
because he took away our,
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you know, our
Sabbath school teacher.
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Years later, when I
was at the seminary,
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he was teaching at Andrews,
and I had a chance to tell him,
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"You know, 20, 30 years
ago, I used to hate you, man,
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because you took away
our Sabbath school teacher."
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She is retired
now, living in Atlanta,
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and every now and again,
we will talk on the phone,
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I tell her that story,
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and she thinks it's hilarious
'cause she doesn't remember.
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But her kindness
brought me into the church.
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Wow.
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And then the church
brought me to the Lord.
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So when you're kind to a
young person, point being,
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you never know
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what that's
going to translate into
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because she showed
kindness to everybody,
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but the guys, kind
of, really liked it.
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Yes.
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And all of those guys
stayed in the church, man,
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because of that kindness shown,
and certainly, in my life,
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it was true.
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Wow.
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So that had a
tremendous impact on you.
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What did your family
think when you came home?
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When you started going to church
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and then you ended up
being baptized at 10 years old,
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what did your family think?
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My mom was like,
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"Okay, I'm not doing that,
you know, it's not for me."
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You know, she was kind
of a holiday Methodist.
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Okay.
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You know, my dad was,
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kind of, all
Robert Sunday morning,
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that's plenty, that's
enough, you know, kind of thing.
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And my sister and brother,
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kind of, just
roll with the punches.
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My mother said,
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"If this what you want
to do, okay, not for me,
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but it's okay."
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She had a great deal
of respect for Adventist
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because she saw their lifestyle.
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So when I would disappear
with their family all day
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on Saturdays sometimes,
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she never asked,
she never questioned.
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She knew I was
with the Adventists
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across the street,
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and she had
great respect for them.
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So when I came
home Saturday night,
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she'd say, "Hey, how
was the day-kind of thing."
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But not a question
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because she had that
much love and respect
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for what she saw, as
Jesus, she saw in them.
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Yeah.
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So she was
comfortable putting me
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in their hands.
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And what did your parents do?
They worked hard, didn't they?
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Your dad, what did your dad do?
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My dad worked
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for a New York Central Railroad.
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He was actually a cook. Okay.
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And he retired early,
and he had a restaurant
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for a while called
the Silver Slipper.
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Okay.
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And so as a restaurant person,
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you know restaurant
work is hard and long,
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Yes, it is.
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Because when
it's your restaurant,
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it's on you.
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You know, and it
wasn't like a big restaurant.
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It's, kind of, like a
Rib Shack kind of a thing.
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Okay.
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And then my mom worked
in the X-ray department
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of Buffalo General Hospital.
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So they were
working people. Wow, wow.
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And what impact did
that have on your life
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'cause you're a
hard-working person?
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I don't think I do...
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You know, people look
at you and judge, I just...
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I liked Adventism. To
this day, I like Adventism.
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I like the role that
God has called me to.
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I had the privilege
of baptizing my mom,
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baptizing my dad one month
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before he had a
heart attack and died,
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and then seeing my
sister come to the Lord.
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So my brother died
of drugs at age 36,
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but we got mom,
dad, and my sister in.
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And I can see there were
times, you know, at times,
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when I hated going
to church, you know.
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I had those wilderness
years, playing basketball,
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scholarship, and it
never occurred to me
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that I could stop,
you know, I'd whine about,
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"Now I got to go to church."
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My mother said, "No,
you don't. Stay home.
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You know, I don't
want to hear you whine,
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just stay home."
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"And now, I got to go."
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So sometimes
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we would play
ball on Friday night,
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go out and party till
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about six
o'clock in the morning,
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I'd come home, study
my Sabbath school lesson,
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sleep for an hour,
get up and go to church.
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You know, that kind of thing.
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You know, I had all these rules,
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you know, I don't eat pork.
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So I never ate pork, yeah,
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but I was playing
basketball on Friday night.
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You know, all
these kind of ways,
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you're trying to
justify your lifestyle.
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Yeah.
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And that's an interesting thing
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because when I
was in that world,
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I still tried to justify things.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like when I was
out, I did eat pork,
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but I'd only eat
certain kinds of pork,
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like that really
made a different.
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How ignorant is
that? Yeah, it is, yeah.
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Yeah, you do all
these kind of things
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that try to make
yourself feel good,
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you know, you're
breaking the commandments.
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You know, playing
ball, broke the same ankle
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in the same place,
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the exact same
break, two years in a row,
00:07:34.22\00:07:35.55
almost one year apart.
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And the doctor said,
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"It's very unusual
to break your ankle,
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the same ankle."
00:07:39.69\00:07:41.02
He hold up the
x-rays, the same break.
00:07:41.06\00:07:42.92
So when I have to try on
shoes, I do my left foot first
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because it never
quite healed correctly.
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But, you know,
you're not eating pork,
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I'm not
drinking, not eating pork,
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but you're playing
basketball on Friday night.
00:07:52.67\00:07:54.00
Yeah.
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So what's, you know,
sin is sin kind of thing.
00:07:55.40\00:07:57.04
So we do these kind
of things. Yes, yes.
00:07:57.07\00:07:59.24
But that got me...
00:07:59.27\00:08:00.61
I, kind of, came to my senses,
transferred to old College.
00:08:00.64\00:08:03.78
It was a whole new
story 'cause I had no money,
00:08:03.81\00:08:05.81
my parents had no money,
00:08:05.85\00:08:07.18
and I was going to
school on a scholarship.
00:08:07.22\00:08:08.55
Well, the scholarship was
ended but Dr. Calvin Rock found
00:08:08.58\00:08:12.49
some money for me, and
we got in Oakwood College,
00:08:12.52\00:08:15.42
worked our way
through and graduated,
00:08:15.46\00:08:18.26
and then went on
00:08:18.29\00:08:19.63
to the seminary two years later.
00:08:19.66\00:08:21.00
Wow.
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You know, what I want to know
00:08:22.40\00:08:23.73
is how you
witnessed to your family.
00:08:23.77\00:08:26.17
I mean, you
baptized your sister,
00:08:26.20\00:08:27.54
you baptized
your mom and your dad,
00:08:27.57\00:08:30.74
how did you witness to them
00:08:30.77\00:08:32.11
because I think sometimes family
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are the hardest
people to witness to?
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Mostly lifestyle,
they weren't of the nature
00:08:38.28\00:08:42.52
that you could preach too much.
00:08:42.55\00:08:45.75
My mom ordered my dad,
00:08:45.79\00:08:47.76
but my dad would
ask me questions,
00:08:47.79\00:08:50.33
and it occurred to me
00:08:50.36\00:08:51.69
that something is
going on in his heart.
00:08:51.73\00:08:53.83
So basically, it
was just living the life
00:08:53.86\00:08:57.80
and living the
life consistently.
00:08:57.83\00:09:01.77
You know, it'd be funny,
00:09:01.80\00:09:03.17
and my family is
great football family.
00:09:03.20\00:09:05.34
Even college football
on Saturday, you come home,
00:09:05.37\00:09:08.14
my sister who was
working as a nurse
00:09:08.18\00:09:10.41
had her own TV in a room,
00:09:10.45\00:09:12.35
my dad had a TV
in the living room,
00:09:12.38\00:09:14.52
my mom had a TV in the bedroom.
00:09:14.55\00:09:16.42
So everybody's watching TV
00:09:16.45\00:09:17.79
because my family all
watched TV very differently.
00:09:17.82\00:09:19.95
My sister screams
at the television set,
00:09:19.99\00:09:22.96
you know, "For you, stupid."
00:09:22.99\00:09:24.33
She would, you
know, throw things
00:09:24.36\00:09:25.69
at the television set.
00:09:25.73\00:09:27.06
So she has to
watch TV by herself,
00:09:27.10\00:09:28.43
you can't watch TV with Donna
'cause she's berserk that way.
00:09:28.46\00:09:31.00
Uh-huh.
00:09:31.03\00:09:32.37
My mom always
wanted it very quiet.
00:09:32.40\00:09:33.74
Uh-huh.
00:09:33.77\00:09:35.10
You know, she
doesn't want any noise,
00:09:35.14\00:09:36.47
just the sound of
the television set.
00:09:36.50\00:09:37.84
So all that
screaming and hysteria on,
00:09:37.87\00:09:39.21
she didn't want that stuff.
00:09:39.24\00:09:40.58
And my dad was
somewhere in the middle,
00:09:40.61\00:09:41.94
but he liked to watch
TV, kind of, by himself.
00:09:41.98\00:09:43.75
So you got three TVs going on.
00:09:43.78\00:09:45.58
I'd have to walk
past those three TVs
00:09:45.61\00:09:47.52
and go to my room,
kind of close the door,
00:09:47.55\00:09:48.88
you know all those
things, it's because...
00:09:48.92\00:09:50.25
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:50.29\00:09:51.62
And somehow that
made an impression.
00:09:51.65\00:09:52.99
I didn't know at
the time, but later on,
00:09:53.02\00:09:54.66
the fact that I would
just pass all that stuff.
00:09:54.69\00:09:56.56
Yeah.
00:09:56.59\00:09:57.93
And the way I handled things,
00:09:57.96\00:10:00.50
and they had a healthy respect
for the way Adventists lived
00:10:00.53\00:10:03.73
because they saw
Christianity in the people
00:10:03.77\00:10:07.40
that we associated with.
00:10:07.44\00:10:09.44
And when my
mother went to church,
00:10:09.47\00:10:10.81
everybody was
so friendly to her,
00:10:10.84\00:10:12.17
which says a lot
to greeting people
00:10:12.21\00:10:14.88
when they come to
church that you don't know.
00:10:14.91\00:10:17.58
Whenever she came,
they showed her love,
00:10:17.61\00:10:19.28
they showed her
respect, that kind of thing,
00:10:19.31\00:10:21.42
and that planted a seed.
00:10:21.45\00:10:23.39
And then I went home,
and I did a week of prayer.
00:10:23.42\00:10:26.02
And on a Friday night,
I had preached all week,
00:10:26.05\00:10:28.56
and Friday night,
00:10:28.59\00:10:29.92
and I had one
last Sabbath morning.
00:10:29.96\00:10:31.69
So I and the Lord determined
00:10:31.73\00:10:34.43
she's getting out of
that seat tonight, you know.
00:10:34.46\00:10:36.77
So I preached Jason,
00:10:36.80\00:10:38.63
and I preached maybe 20 minutes,
00:10:38.67\00:10:40.54
and I appealed for another 30.
00:10:40.57\00:10:43.07
Whoa.
00:10:43.10\00:10:44.44
I mean, I went to the cross,
00:10:44.47\00:10:45.81
I held her over
the flames of hell,
00:10:45.84\00:10:47.24
I did everything I could.
00:10:47.28\00:10:48.61
I said, "That
woman is getting out,"
00:10:48.64\00:10:49.98
and I knew the
Spirit was working
00:10:50.01\00:10:51.35
'cause she's sitting in a chair,
00:10:51.38\00:10:52.71
and she's rocking back
and forth, tears coming down,
00:10:52.75\00:10:54.82
but she's not
getting up, you know.
00:10:54.85\00:10:56.18
"Come to Jesus",
00:10:56.22\00:10:57.55
I'm, you know, appealing
and appealing and appealing.
00:10:57.59\00:10:59.85
She's rocking and
crying and rocking and crying.
00:10:59.89\00:11:02.42
And finally,
after about 30 minutes,
00:11:02.46\00:11:04.59
up she popped,
00:11:04.63\00:11:05.96
but then we
dismissed it, and it was done.
00:11:05.99\00:11:08.43
A couple of weeks later,
no, a couple months later,
00:11:08.46\00:11:10.63
came back home,
and we baptized her.
00:11:10.67\00:11:12.33
Wow.
00:11:12.37\00:11:13.70
And then my dad had
a small heart incident.
00:11:13.74\00:11:18.81
And then in May, I came home,
00:11:18.84\00:11:21.54
we spent two days discussing
00:11:21.58\00:11:23.01
just the Word,
flew back home in...
00:11:23.04\00:11:25.91
Drove back home in October
from New York to Buffalo,
00:11:25.95\00:11:28.72
baptized him in ice cold
water in Buffalo, New York
00:11:28.75\00:11:30.65
because the heater broke,
00:11:30.69\00:11:32.39
but I baptized him
anyway, and I'm glad I did
00:11:32.42\00:11:34.56
because one month
later, my mom said,
00:11:34.59\00:11:36.42
"Come home, your
dad just passed."
00:11:36.46\00:11:38.79
So we got him in 30
days before he passed.
00:11:38.83\00:11:42.43
And I tell you, I tease Irma
00:11:42.46\00:11:43.80
because Irma's dad was
also running from the Lord.
00:11:43.83\00:11:46.57
He gave his heart
to the Lord two weeks
00:11:46.60\00:11:48.54
before he died, you know.
00:11:48.57\00:11:50.47
And so I said, "You've
got to show off your dad.
00:11:50.51\00:11:52.07
My dad was 30 days,
your dad two weeks."
00:11:52.11\00:11:53.98
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That king of a thing.
00:11:54.01\00:11:55.98
We tease like that,
but both of us were so glad
00:11:56.01\00:11:57.98
that before they
closed their eyes,
00:11:58.01\00:12:00.28
they both gave
their hearts to the Lord.
00:12:00.32\00:12:01.65
Wow, praise the
Lord for that. Yeah.
00:12:01.68\00:12:03.25
What made you want
to go into ministry?
00:12:03.28\00:12:05.59
Always.
00:12:05.62\00:12:06.96
At age 10, a big
storm came through Buffalo
00:12:06.99\00:12:10.99
and a bird's nest
fell out of the tree.
00:12:11.03\00:12:13.33
And so we had a little funeral
for this little baby bird,
00:12:13.36\00:12:16.87
you know, and that's
when I delivered the eulogy
00:12:16.90\00:12:18.73
for the little bird, you know.
00:12:18.77\00:12:20.10
Wow.
00:12:20.14\00:12:21.47
And that was actually age nine,
00:12:21.50\00:12:24.07
from the time I did
that little funeral,
00:12:24.11\00:12:25.57
our little group of
kids for that baby bird,
00:12:25.61\00:12:27.91
we had a big funeral, man.
00:12:27.94\00:12:29.28
You remember what
you said? I don't recall.
00:12:29.31\00:12:31.65
I just remember
feeling very bad and saying,
00:12:31.68\00:12:34.05
"Boy, I want to
do this, you know."
00:12:34.08\00:12:35.95
Wow.
00:12:35.98\00:12:37.32
And then watching the pastors
at our church and listening
00:12:37.35\00:12:41.79
to what they said
00:12:41.82\00:12:43.16
and how people
respond to do that,
00:12:43.19\00:12:45.13
it occurred to me
that's what I wanted to do.
00:12:45.16\00:12:47.96
Yeah, very
early. Wow, so early on.
00:12:48.00\00:12:50.57
And you've been now
in ministry for how long?
00:12:50.60\00:12:54.54
Longer than I care
to remember, 44 years.
00:12:54.57\00:12:59.61
Wow, okay.
00:12:59.64\00:13:00.98
And they seem so compressed,
30 years in New York City,
00:13:01.01\00:13:04.81
14 and change at 3ABN,
and when you look back,
00:13:04.85\00:13:08.78
it seems like a snippet of time.
00:13:08.82\00:13:11.52
What are some stories,
maybe some powerful testimonies
00:13:11.55\00:13:14.52
that you may have
that you've witnessed?
00:13:14.56\00:13:17.23
You know, people
coming to the Lord
00:13:17.26\00:13:19.39
or overcoming adversity.
00:13:19.43\00:13:22.90
What are some
stories that you have?
00:13:22.93\00:13:24.53
You know, there are so many.
00:13:24.57\00:13:27.30
Every church that I pastored,
00:13:27.34\00:13:28.87
there were very,
very strong stories.
00:13:28.90\00:13:33.38
I told this the
other day to someone.
00:13:33.41\00:13:35.84
When I was pastoring,
00:13:35.88\00:13:37.21
one of my very first
evangelistic crusades,
00:13:37.25\00:13:39.75
Sister Henrietta Austin
00:13:39.78\00:13:42.48
came running into my tent.
00:13:42.52\00:13:46.92
I remember because
she's a tall woman.
00:13:46.96\00:13:49.46
If you take our Shelley Quinn
is about six foot and slim.
00:13:49.49\00:13:53.83
If you take Shelley Quinn
put about 75 pounds on her,
00:13:53.86\00:13:57.23
you got Henrietta Austin.
00:13:57.27\00:13:58.60
Not fat but just a big woman,
you know, very attractive,
00:13:58.63\00:14:02.17
dressed very well.
00:14:02.20\00:14:03.54
I remember the
first time I saw her,
00:14:03.57\00:14:04.91
she had on a red
hat, red shoes, red bag,
00:14:04.94\00:14:07.18
blue two-piece
suit with white piping.
00:14:07.21\00:14:10.25
It just stayed in my
mind, that's years ago,
00:14:10.28\00:14:12.15
back in the 70s.
00:14:12.18\00:14:13.52
But she ran into the
tent, and she sat down,
00:14:13.55\00:14:15.95
and she listened,
00:14:15.98\00:14:17.32
she came back the next night,
she gave back the next night.
00:14:17.35\00:14:18.92
At the end of the meeting,
00:14:18.95\00:14:20.29
I think we
baptized 57 in that meeting.
00:14:20.32\00:14:23.32
She was baptized. Wow.
00:14:23.36\00:14:25.96
She told me her story, she said,
00:14:25.99\00:14:27.33
"You know, the night
I ran into your tent,
00:14:27.36\00:14:29.30
I was dating this guy,
00:14:29.33\00:14:30.93
and we were driving by the tent,
00:14:30.97\00:14:33.20
and we slowed down a
little bit because we could hear
00:14:33.23\00:14:36.17
your voice
coming out of the tent.
00:14:36.20\00:14:38.27
Well, about that time,
he's getting all handsy,
00:14:38.31\00:14:40.08
you know, he's trying to kiss me
00:14:40.11\00:14:41.44
and touch me and
rub on me and stuff.
00:14:41.48\00:14:42.81
So I jumped out of a
car and ran into the tent
00:14:42.84\00:14:45.21
because I knew
00:14:45.25\00:14:46.58
he wouldn't follow me in there."
00:14:46.61\00:14:48.28
I remember because
she ran into the tent,
00:14:48.32\00:14:50.15
you know, people
just don't run into...
00:14:50.19\00:14:51.95
Really, but she ran into tent.
00:14:51.99\00:14:53.52
She said, "I had a
fifth of Jack Daniels
00:14:53.56\00:14:55.79
or something in my bag
00:14:55.82\00:14:57.16
which I had half
drunk before your meeting.
00:14:57.19\00:14:59.29
I finished it that night.
00:14:59.33\00:15:00.86
And that was the last time,
00:15:00.90\00:15:02.40
I ever touched liquor or alcohol
00:15:02.43\00:15:03.87
or cigarettes or anything."
00:15:03.90\00:15:05.23
And she stayed in the
church, she was deaconess,
00:15:05.27\00:15:07.57
she loved the Lord, and
sadly, she got Alzheimer's.
00:15:07.60\00:15:11.47
And she died sometime later.
00:15:11.51\00:15:13.17
But no one ever loved being
00:15:13.21\00:15:16.14
a Seventh-day
Adventist Christian
00:15:16.18\00:15:17.75
more than Henrietta
Austin while she could.
00:15:17.78\00:15:19.41
Wow. Wow.
Wonderful, wonderful lady.
00:15:19.45\00:15:21.62
What other...
00:15:21.65\00:15:22.98
You got...
00:15:23.02\00:15:24.35
I know you have a lot of them.
00:15:24.39\00:15:25.72
In 44 years of
ministry, I know you have a...
00:15:25.75\00:15:27.22
Tons of
stories. Tons of stories.
00:15:27.26\00:15:29.09
Oh, my goodness.
00:15:29.12\00:15:30.86
In my book, "I
Shall Fear No Evil",
00:15:30.89\00:15:33.19
I tell a story of
a lady named Elisa.
00:15:33.23\00:15:35.00
This is when I was
pastoring the Ephesus Church.
00:15:35.03\00:15:38.83
This is in the
early days of AIDS,
00:15:38.87\00:15:40.37
when they really don't
understand that disease.
00:15:40.40\00:15:43.17
She was diagnosed with
AIDS, and I went to see her,
00:15:43.20\00:15:47.91
and what a godly woman.
00:15:47.94\00:15:49.28
She stands out in my mind
because her husband had...
00:15:49.31\00:15:52.85
They had had a time
00:15:52.88\00:15:54.22
when they had
had some arguments,
00:15:54.25\00:15:55.58
and he left the house.
00:15:55.62\00:15:56.95
And during that time,
00:15:56.99\00:15:58.32
he spent some
time with other women.
00:15:58.35\00:16:00.19
He, of course,
is not a Christian
00:16:00.22\00:16:01.82
and contracted HIV,
brought it back to her,
00:16:01.86\00:16:04.99
and subsequently,
she was diagnosed.
00:16:05.03\00:16:08.33
When I went to see
her, he had wasted away.
00:16:08.36\00:16:12.83
They called it AIDS wasting.
00:16:12.87\00:16:14.20
In their early days,
when they didn't know quite
00:16:14.24\00:16:15.57
how to treat
disease, this happened a lot.
00:16:15.60\00:16:17.61
He was down to maybe 100 pounds.
00:16:17.64\00:16:19.77
He's a pretty
good-sized man. Wow.
00:16:19.81\00:16:21.24
And had, as I counted,
00:16:21.28\00:16:22.78
I think about 20
different medications
00:16:22.81\00:16:24.71
because they were
just trying things.
00:16:24.75\00:16:26.08
They didn't really
know back in the 80s
00:16:26.11\00:16:27.45
what they were dealing with.
00:16:27.48\00:16:28.82
Well, she was there,
00:16:28.85\00:16:30.19
and that's when
she told me that,
00:16:30.22\00:16:33.59
"I'm HIV positive."
00:16:33.62\00:16:36.06
And she wasn't
angry, she was not upset,
00:16:36.09\00:16:38.99
she seems so calm in the Lord.
00:16:39.03\00:16:43.20
She said, "Pastor,
I'm okay. I'm fine.
00:16:43.23\00:16:45.80
I trust the
Lord. I love the Lord.
00:16:45.83\00:16:48.90
I've given my vows to this man.
00:16:48.94\00:16:51.67
He is sorry for
what has happened.
00:16:51.71\00:16:53.68
He is paying for his sins.
00:16:53.71\00:16:55.34
I'm going to take care of
him," which just blew me away,
00:16:55.38\00:16:57.65
I mean that kind of thing.
00:16:57.68\00:16:59.01
Yeah, that's huge.
00:16:59.05\00:17:00.38
Yeah, she said...
00:17:00.42\00:17:01.75
And I mean, she had to feed him,
00:17:01.78\00:17:03.12
she had to clean him,
she had to diaper him,
00:17:03.15\00:17:05.22
she had to give
him his medications.
00:17:05.25\00:17:06.99
She said, "The only
thing I'm asking, Lord,
00:17:07.02\00:17:08.86
is I don't want that.
00:17:08.89\00:17:10.49
I don't want to
end up like that."
00:17:10.53\00:17:12.39
She said, "I'm okay. I'm
fine. I trust in the Lord."
00:17:12.43\00:17:15.63
And she was really
just blowing me away
00:17:15.66\00:17:17.33
because her faith was so strong
00:17:17.37\00:17:19.00
and her stability was so strong,
00:17:19.03\00:17:20.77
she said, "I just
don't want to be like that."
00:17:20.80\00:17:24.04
And we prayed together.
00:17:24.07\00:17:25.41
I remember going out to the car,
00:17:25.44\00:17:26.84
and I'm not a crier,
but I cried in the car.
00:17:26.88\00:17:30.05
First of all, her
faith was just overwhelming,
00:17:30.08\00:17:33.31
and her love for the
Lord, and her statement,
00:17:33.35\00:17:35.98
"That's okay,
you know, it's okay,
00:17:36.02\00:17:38.49
I know if I'm
faithful, I'll have that."
00:17:38.52\00:17:40.49
So she was taking care of him.
00:17:40.52\00:17:41.92
Well, I got word, I had
gone away for something.
00:17:41.96\00:17:44.36
I got word that she had gone
into the hospital not knowing
00:17:44.39\00:17:47.70
how AIDS was,
00:17:47.73\00:17:49.96
usually on
several hospital visits,
00:17:50.00\00:17:51.33
you know, you go
in, you come out,
00:17:51.37\00:17:52.70
you go in, you come out.
00:17:52.73\00:17:54.07
So it didn't
occur to me to rush back
00:17:54.10\00:17:56.34
because it was her
first time in the hospital.
00:17:56.37\00:17:58.47
Well, when I got
back, she was still there,
00:17:58.51\00:18:01.44
and right after that, she died.
00:18:01.48\00:18:04.88
And then
talking with the doctor,
00:18:04.91\00:18:07.98
he said to me,
00:18:08.02\00:18:09.35
"I don't know why
this woman is dead.
00:18:09.38\00:18:11.09
There is
nothing wrong with her."
00:18:11.12\00:18:12.45
When he says that
00:18:12.49\00:18:13.82
there was no particular disease,
00:18:13.86\00:18:15.19
her T-cell count was off.
00:18:15.22\00:18:16.69
And, you know, but he said that,
00:18:16.73\00:18:18.06
"She's not sick
enough to be dead.
00:18:18.09\00:18:20.63
I don't really understand."
00:18:20.66\00:18:22.16
And I told that
doctor that was her wish.
00:18:22.20\00:18:26.53
So she went in a
hospital, she closed her eyes,
00:18:26.57\00:18:29.10
she peacefully went to sleep.
00:18:29.14\00:18:30.47
Her husband lasted maybe six
00:18:30.51\00:18:32.14
or eight months
longer wasting away,
00:18:32.17\00:18:34.28
you know, but she just
went to sleep in the Lord.
00:18:34.31\00:18:36.31
So I've seen in New York City
some great examples of faith,
00:18:36.34\00:18:40.45
great, great examples
of faith of young people,
00:18:40.48\00:18:43.65
young and old,
00:18:43.69\00:18:45.02
who really
locked in on the Lord.
00:18:45.05\00:18:49.62
You know, that kind of thing.
00:18:49.66\00:18:52.36
Many, many examples of
people who gave up lifestyles.
00:18:52.39\00:18:57.83
When I was telling you
before, there was a young man,
00:18:57.87\00:19:00.60
a deacon at my church
00:19:00.64\00:19:01.97
whose sister was
caught in prostitution.
00:19:02.00\00:19:03.67
She was living in a
house of prostitution,
00:19:03.71\00:19:05.44
and she called him and
said, "I want to get out."
00:19:05.47\00:19:08.18
And so he came to me
now, 30, 40 years later,
00:19:08.21\00:19:11.91
I probably wouldn't do this,
00:19:11.95\00:19:13.28
but back then we had to
get this girl out, you know.
00:19:13.31\00:19:16.58
And so we dressed up
like ninjas, you know.
00:19:16.62\00:19:19.19
We put on black clothes,
black shoes, black sneakers,
00:19:19.22\00:19:21.69
you know.
00:19:21.72\00:19:23.09
Back in the day, when everybody
was wearing Converse All-Stars,
00:19:23.12\00:19:26.09
you know, black
sneakers, black hat,
00:19:26.13\00:19:28.70
you know, black,
you know, kind of thing.
00:19:28.73\00:19:30.50
And she said, "I'll
leave the back door unlocked."
00:19:30.53\00:19:33.74
And we tried the
back door of the house
00:19:33.77\00:19:35.54
and, you know, dogs are barking.
00:19:35.57\00:19:37.04
We were getting kind of scared.
So she couldn't come out.
00:19:37.07\00:19:40.98
So she appeared at
the window, and she said,
00:19:41.01\00:19:43.01
"I'm going to jump."
00:19:43.04\00:19:44.38
You know, I was like,
"Okay, we'll catch you."
00:19:44.41\00:19:46.11
Wow. She's on the second floor.
00:19:46.15\00:19:47.88
Second floor?
00:19:47.92\00:19:49.25
She hang jumped, you
know, you hold off all you can.
00:19:49.28\00:19:50.99
So she didn't fall that far,
00:19:51.02\00:19:52.35
but luckily, she
was not a big girl,
00:19:52.39\00:19:54.36
but we kind of
joined our hands together.
00:19:54.39\00:19:56.36
She jumped, and we caught her,
00:19:56.39\00:19:57.73
and we really ran
away with her, you know.
00:19:57.76\00:19:59.33
And then she went and
stayed with her aunt for a while
00:19:59.36\00:20:02.26
till the heat got off, you know.
00:20:02.30\00:20:03.63
But I don't know
00:20:03.67\00:20:05.00
if I would do that at
this point in my life.
00:20:05.03\00:20:06.37
Yeah, a lot more people
have guns in their houses.
00:20:06.40\00:20:08.87
Precisely, yeah, yeah.
00:20:08.90\00:20:10.34
We could have
gotten some trouble,
00:20:10.37\00:20:11.77
but back then when
you're in your 20s,
00:20:11.81\00:20:13.58
you figure you're invincible.
00:20:13.61\00:20:14.94
You try that kind
of stuff, you know.
00:20:14.98\00:20:16.31
Yes, yes. It was a blessing.
00:20:16.34\00:20:17.68
Wow.
00:20:17.71\00:20:19.05
Now you have a
couple testimonies
00:20:19.08\00:20:20.42
of your own in your own life.
00:20:20.45\00:20:23.55
Tell us about the
school you went to early on.
00:20:23.59\00:20:28.42
PS 71, 1st grade through 6.
00:20:28.46\00:20:33.13
I've always had poor eyesight,
and the doctors are telling me
00:20:33.16\00:20:36.33
that I will
probably go blind again
00:20:36.36\00:20:38.83
before this is all over.
00:20:38.87\00:20:40.20
And I told that to
Irma when we started dating.
00:20:40.24\00:20:42.17
So I said, "You'd
probably pushing me around
00:20:42.20\00:20:43.64
in a wheelchair or something."
00:20:43.67\00:20:46.81
But I started
out with poor sight,
00:20:46.84\00:20:48.94
and then I went to first grade,
00:20:48.98\00:20:51.95
and we repeated first
grade at blind school.
00:20:51.98\00:20:56.55
My sight had deteriorated.
00:20:56.58\00:20:57.92
They had to take me
out of public school
00:20:57.95\00:20:59.95
and put me in school
00:20:59.99\00:21:01.46
for the
nearsighted and totally blind.
00:21:01.49\00:21:05.19
You had to be a legally blind
to be admitted to that school.
00:21:05.23\00:21:08.16
So we did the Braille thing.
00:21:08.20\00:21:09.90
I was trying to read
Braille just the other day,
00:21:09.93\00:21:11.53
you know, you lose a touch
in your fingers and, you know.
00:21:11.57\00:21:14.37
When you want to
be mainline so badly,
00:21:14.40\00:21:16.20
I purposely never touched
00:21:16.24\00:21:17.67
a Braille book
for years and years.
00:21:17.71\00:21:19.14
Now I found out I cannot do it,
00:21:19.17\00:21:20.51
you know, just I don't
have that ability anymore.
00:21:20.54\00:21:23.18
But from first grade, first,
00:21:23.21\00:21:24.61
second, third,
fourth, fifth, six,
00:21:24.65\00:21:27.15
I think I went
back to public school
00:21:27.18\00:21:28.65
in the sixth grade,
00:21:28.68\00:21:30.02
almost as mysteriously
as my eyes deteriorated,
00:21:30.05\00:21:32.42
they came back.
00:21:32.45\00:21:33.79
But they never came back fully.
00:21:33.82\00:21:35.32
So I wore glasses up until,
contact lenses even though,
00:21:35.36\00:21:38.73
then contact lenses,
00:21:38.76\00:21:40.10
and then I had
to get cataracts...
00:21:40.13\00:21:41.80
I have had 11 or so surgeries
on my eyes over the years.
00:21:41.83\00:21:46.63
Wow.
00:21:46.67\00:21:48.00
I've had four
since being at 3ABN,
00:21:48.04\00:21:49.37
five since being at 3ABN,
including one just last month.
00:21:49.40\00:21:53.11
So it's something
that is inevitable,
00:21:53.14\00:21:56.44
and I'm at peace with it.
00:21:56.48\00:21:57.81
I've been blind before,
so I guess I can make it.
00:21:57.85\00:22:00.78
What was it like,
00:22:00.82\00:22:02.15
that initial shock factor, like,
00:22:02.18\00:22:04.55
when you couldn't see?
00:22:04.59\00:22:06.32
It deteriorated
slowly, and when you're five,
00:22:10.29\00:22:15.93
you just kind of
roll with it, you know.
00:22:15.96\00:22:17.43
I don't remember any
particular sense of horror.
00:22:17.47\00:22:20.87
Now when I was pastoring
the Springfield Gardens Church,
00:22:20.90\00:22:25.64
I was holding a meeting,
00:22:25.67\00:22:27.31
and in the
middle of that meeting,
00:22:27.34\00:22:28.68
I went blind again.
00:22:28.71\00:22:31.31
I woke up Sunday morning
00:22:31.35\00:22:32.68
that I was going
to preach Sabbath
00:22:32.71\00:22:35.65
and couldn't see
00:22:35.68\00:22:37.02
and had to call my
next-door neighbor,
00:22:37.05\00:22:38.82
just yell at them
and asked them to take me
00:22:38.85\00:22:40.92
to the emergency room
00:22:40.96\00:22:42.29
'cause I literally couldn't see.
00:22:42.32\00:22:44.59
And that's how I got
to meet the eye doctor
00:22:44.63\00:22:47.10
that I had for 25 years,
Dr. Michael J. Lieberman,
00:22:47.13\00:22:50.07
who was a Jewish eye doctor.
00:22:50.10\00:22:51.47
Uh-huh.
00:22:51.50\00:22:52.83
And the reason he was
practicing on Sundays is
00:22:52.87\00:22:54.20
'cause he was
closed on Saturday.
00:22:54.24\00:22:55.57
He is the only one in
Long Island, New York,
00:22:55.60\00:22:57.11
that was there, and
we became great friends,
00:22:57.14\00:23:00.14
had some great studies on Daniel
00:23:00.18\00:23:01.58
and some great debates
'cause his father was a rabbi.
00:23:01.61\00:23:03.81
Okay.
00:23:03.85\00:23:05.18
And over the years,
when he was dilating my eyes,
00:23:05.21\00:23:06.55
and I had to
sit still and quiet,
00:23:06.58\00:23:07.92
we'd go back and forth,
00:23:07.95\00:23:09.28
you know, 'cause
he liked the idea,
00:23:09.32\00:23:10.65
we kept Sabbath,
we didn't eat pork,
00:23:10.69\00:23:12.02
so we had this
natural simpatico.
00:23:12.05\00:23:13.39
So we'd have some great debates,
00:23:13.42\00:23:14.76
you know, over for
25 years, a nice fellow.
00:23:14.79\00:23:17.03
And he took care of me
00:23:17.06\00:23:19.79
while I was in New
York the whole time.
00:23:19.83\00:23:23.47
You've also had
open-heart surgery too.
00:23:23.50\00:23:25.53
Oh, yeah.
00:23:25.57\00:23:26.90
We've had open-heart surgery,
00:23:26.94\00:23:29.14
six bypasses, the doctor said,
00:23:29.17\00:23:32.77
"You know, you're
a fortunate fellow.
00:23:32.81\00:23:34.14
We don't usually
get many sixes in here,
00:23:34.18\00:23:36.38
and they usually walk in.
00:23:36.41\00:23:37.91
I walked in and walked out."
Yeah, praise the Lord for that.
00:23:37.95\00:23:41.18
We came and visited
you in the hospital.
00:23:41.22\00:23:42.68
Indeed. Yeah, that was tough.
00:23:42.72\00:23:45.15
And you had so much faith,
00:23:45.19\00:23:47.02
you know, I
remember asking you like,
00:23:47.06\00:23:50.33
"Are you nervous?
00:23:50.36\00:23:51.69
Are you scared?
Are you worried?"
00:23:51.73\00:23:53.26
You said, "You
know, I've got faith.
00:23:53.29\00:23:56.46
You know, I tell other
people they got to have faith.
00:23:56.50\00:23:59.50
I believe in it, I got faith."
00:23:59.53\00:24:00.87
Yeah, you got to
buy what you sell, man.
00:24:00.90\00:24:02.24
You got to buy.
00:24:02.27\00:24:04.41
Bradford, Elder
Bradford, used to say,
00:24:04.44\00:24:05.87
"You know, you got
to write checks, man,
00:24:05.91\00:24:07.61
you put all
this money in a bank,
00:24:07.64\00:24:09.71
then sometimes you
got to cash some stuff,
00:24:09.74\00:24:11.08
you know, you're going to write
00:24:11.11\00:24:12.45
some checks,
just call on the Lord,
00:24:12.48\00:24:13.82
write a check, He'll cash it.
00:24:13.85\00:24:15.18
You can overdraw."
00:24:15.22\00:24:16.55
I want to shift
gears a little bit.
00:24:16.58\00:24:17.92
We've got a short
amount of time left,
00:24:17.95\00:24:20.19
roughly like three minutes,
00:24:20.22\00:24:22.92
but I want to talk
about your tenure here at 3ABN
00:24:22.96\00:24:26.59
and some of the things
00:24:26.63\00:24:27.96
that you've
experienced and lessons
00:24:28.00\00:24:29.43
that you've
learned here at 3ABN.
00:24:29.46\00:24:32.77
I think one of the
things I can say is that people
00:24:32.80\00:24:36.20
are more important than things.
00:24:36.24\00:24:39.27
The one thing that
you notice at 3ABN is that
00:24:39.31\00:24:44.01
there are a group of people
00:24:44.05\00:24:45.38
who are hyper
focused on mission.
00:24:45.41\00:24:47.85
The reason this
ministry has been around so long
00:24:47.88\00:24:50.59
and enjoyed the kind of success,
00:24:50.62\00:24:52.12
and I use that term advisedly,
00:24:52.15\00:24:54.39
is because people
are focused on mission.
00:24:54.42\00:24:57.79
This is not a perfect place
00:24:57.83\00:24:59.16
because there are no
perfect places on earth.
00:24:59.19\00:25:01.93
Yet, there are a
group of people here
00:25:01.96\00:25:04.23
who honestly try, and I think,
succeed in serving the Lord.
00:25:04.27\00:25:07.90
And when they step
on each other's toes,
00:25:07.94\00:25:10.17
as inevitably we will do
00:25:10.21\00:25:11.87
because television
is so hypercritical
00:25:11.91\00:25:14.74
as far as time is
concerned, they generally say,
00:25:14.78\00:25:17.85
"I'm sorry," and mean it.
00:25:17.88\00:25:19.71
You don't have
people looking out
00:25:19.75\00:25:21.22
to tear other people down,
00:25:21.25\00:25:22.68
you don't have to
look over your shoulder
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.05
where somebody's
trying to catch up to you
00:25:24.09\00:25:25.42
and take your job.
00:25:25.45\00:25:26.79
You're free from
that kind of thing
00:25:26.82\00:25:28.22
because you have people
who really buy what they sell.
00:25:28.26\00:25:31.23
They really
believe in serving the Lord
00:25:31.26\00:25:33.33
and they try to
live lives worthy
00:25:33.36\00:25:35.40
of that calling.
00:25:35.43\00:25:39.27
For somebody who
wants to get into ministry,
00:25:39.30\00:25:43.41
what advice would
you have for them?
00:25:43.44\00:25:45.71
Take enough time to make sure
00:25:45.74\00:25:47.08
that you are in the
calling of the Lord.
00:25:47.11\00:25:49.58
There are a lot of
people who self-call.
00:25:49.61\00:25:52.31
There are a lot of
people who burn out,
00:25:52.35\00:25:54.05
there are a lot of
people who take their selves out
00:25:54.08\00:25:55.85
of the hands of the Lord
00:25:55.88\00:25:57.22
and try to run the
engine by themselves.
00:25:57.25\00:26:00.02
Follow the Lord as
opposed to leading Him.
00:26:00.06\00:26:04.13
Listen to what He has to
say as opposed to telling Him
00:26:04.16\00:26:07.10
what you want from Him.
00:26:07.13\00:26:10.70
Test your call.
00:26:10.73\00:26:12.70
If the Lord
wants you in ministry,
00:26:12.73\00:26:14.60
He will make it
loud enough for you
00:26:14.64\00:26:16.94
to hear and understand.
00:26:16.97\00:26:18.31
And if you're a little
hard of hearing, like Kevin was,
00:26:18.34\00:26:20.84
He will amplify His voice
00:26:20.88\00:26:23.01
until you hear
what He wants you to do.
00:26:23.04\00:26:25.31
There are some who
are not in ministry
00:26:25.35\00:26:27.05
who should be there.
00:26:27.08\00:26:28.42
There are many
who are in ministry
00:26:28.45\00:26:29.78
who really have no
business being there.
00:26:29.82\00:26:31.19
Make sure you're
following the call of the Lord.
00:26:31.22\00:26:34.06
Pray about it, take
good counsel from people
00:26:34.09\00:26:36.49
that you know know the Lord,
00:26:36.52\00:26:38.59
and then walk as far and as fast
00:26:38.63\00:26:41.93
as He will lead you,
and you'll have success.
00:26:41.96\00:26:44.97
Amen.
00:26:45.00\00:26:46.53
How do you prepare your
sermons ever so quickly?
00:26:46.57\00:26:49.40
We got like a
short amount of time.
00:26:49.44\00:26:51.87
This is a power-packed question,
00:26:51.91\00:26:53.51
but very fast,
00:26:53.54\00:26:54.98
how do you prepare your sermons?
00:26:55.01\00:26:56.98
The best I can with
my limited abilities,
00:26:57.01\00:26:58.98
I can't really tell...
00:26:59.01\00:27:00.65
We've got like a minute
left, I mean, you can...
00:27:00.68\00:27:03.89
I don't know, I'm
an inductive preacher.
00:27:03.92\00:27:05.45
Okay.
00:27:05.49\00:27:06.82
Which means, basically,
00:27:06.86\00:27:09.19
I put the ingredients
together and say this is a pie.
00:27:09.22\00:27:13.36
There are some
preachers who say,
00:27:13.40\00:27:14.73
"This is a pie,
here is how we made it."
00:27:14.76\00:27:16.77
I'm the reverse.
00:27:16.80\00:27:18.13
I am, "Here's
sugar, here's dough,
00:27:18.17\00:27:21.34
here is flour, here's...
00:27:21.37\00:27:23.07
Know what that
is? That's a pie."
00:27:23.10\00:27:24.47
Now you may not mention
00:27:24.51\00:27:25.84
the word pie
till 10 minutes down,
00:27:25.87\00:27:27.91
but you're
gathering your ingredients,
00:27:27.94\00:27:29.64
and that's just...
00:27:29.68\00:27:31.15
Doing inductive preaching
00:27:31.18\00:27:32.51
is a little more
comfortable for me
00:27:32.55\00:27:34.85
as opposed to
deductive preaching.
00:27:34.88\00:27:36.58
That's pretty much
all I can tell you.
00:27:36.62\00:27:38.19
Wow.
00:27:38.22\00:27:39.55
Well, one thing that I
like about your sermons too
00:27:39.59\00:27:40.92
is like you incorporate
a lot of your vocabulary,
00:27:40.96\00:27:44.89
basically, is impressive
00:27:44.93\00:27:47.36
because you look up these words,
00:27:47.40\00:27:49.13
then you talk about
those words in the Greek,
00:27:49.16\00:27:51.50
and then the Hebrew,
00:27:51.53\00:27:53.07
and it's always
teaching me something new.
00:27:53.10\00:27:54.67
Well, praise the Lord.
00:27:54.70\00:27:56.04
Our time has escaped us,
00:27:56.07\00:27:57.41
but I thank you
for being with us.
00:27:57.44\00:27:59.67
And I want to
thank you for joining us.
00:27:59.71\00:28:01.14
Join us next time, and remember,
00:28:01.18\00:28:02.61
it just wouldn't be
the same without you.
00:28:02.64\00:28:05.01