The Dare to Dream network
00:00:01.33\00:00:02.66
recognizes the
importance of sharing the tools
00:00:02.70\00:00:04.17
to overcome
temptations in every arena.
00:00:04.23\00:00:07.54
The program you're about to view
00:00:07.60\00:00:09.30
contains sensitive content.
00:00:09.34\00:00:11.54
Parental discretion is advised.
00:00:11.57\00:00:16.08
Stay tuned to meet four brands
00:00:16.11\00:00:18.15
plucked from the
fire of gay culture.
00:00:18.18\00:00:20.88
My name is Yvonne Lewis.
00:00:20.92\00:00:22.35
And I'm Jason Bradley,
00:00:22.38\00:00:23.75
and you are
watching Urban Report.
00:00:23.79\00:00:25.79
Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report.
00:00:50.68\00:00:52.85
Our guests today
are Wayne Blakely,
00:00:52.88\00:00:54.95
Mike Carducci,
Danielle Harrison,
00:00:54.98\00:00:57.22
and Ron Woolsey from
Coming Out Ministries,
00:00:57.25\00:01:00.59
and I've got my co-host, Jason.
00:01:00.66\00:01:03.73
All right. Jason Bradley.
00:01:03.76\00:01:05.09
Yay!
00:01:05.13\00:01:06.46
And we are going
to be talking to this
00:01:06.49\00:01:08.50
wonderful group of people
from Coming Out Ministries.
00:01:08.53\00:01:12.57
Yay!
00:01:12.60\00:01:14.64
You know, it's weird
that we're on this set
00:01:14.67\00:01:16.47
'cause we're not,
00:01:16.50\00:01:17.84
we don't usually do Urban Report
00:01:17.87\00:01:19.47
from the Today set
00:01:19.51\00:01:20.84
but because there
were so many people,
00:01:20.88\00:01:23.08
we had to just
make an adjustment here
00:01:23.11\00:01:25.25
and praise the
Lord, we can do that,
00:01:25.28\00:01:26.78
so we hope that
you enjoy this and...
00:01:26.82\00:01:31.02
We have some questions.
00:01:31.05\00:01:32.99
First of all, you
guys are no stranger
00:01:33.02\00:01:36.16
to Dare to Dream,
00:01:36.19\00:01:37.53
because you have done
two seasons on Pure Choices.
00:01:37.59\00:01:41.56
We've aired your
Journey Interrupted movie
00:01:41.60\00:01:45.63
and we're gonna talk
more about that in a bit,
00:01:45.67\00:01:48.20
and we've had
you on Urban Report.
00:01:48.24\00:01:51.11
So you are no
strangers to Dare to Dream.
00:01:51.14\00:01:54.14
But each time you do
something else, we just,
00:01:54.21\00:01:57.28
we really wanna support you
00:01:57.31\00:01:58.65
because you're
out on the frontlines
00:01:58.68\00:02:01.02
and we know it.
00:02:01.05\00:02:02.38
So tell us a bit, first of all,
about Coming Out Ministries.
00:02:02.42\00:02:06.35
Wayne, what is
Coming Out Ministries
00:02:06.39\00:02:08.59
and why is it important?
00:02:08.62\00:02:10.33
Why is your message important?
00:02:10.36\00:02:12.49
Well, you know, for many years,
00:02:12.53\00:02:14.30
in church environments,
00:02:14.30\00:02:15.70
we didn't talk about the
issue of homosexuality, so,
00:02:15.73\00:02:19.77
so many of us grew up
with same-sex attraction
00:02:19.80\00:02:22.10
with no tools, no real support.
00:02:22.14\00:02:25.84
We identified homosexuality
in God's word as sin,
00:02:25.87\00:02:30.01
but we just didn't,
00:02:30.05\00:02:32.15
we didn't provide
anybody with any hope.
00:02:32.18\00:02:34.42
So as a result of that,
00:02:34.45\00:02:36.55
many of the
church doors flew open
00:02:36.58\00:02:38.79
to all the
same-sex attracted people
00:02:38.82\00:02:41.09
that were
running out and saying,
00:02:41.12\00:02:43.32
"You know, I hear that
00:02:43.39\00:02:44.73
there's a gay
community out there.
00:02:44.76\00:02:46.33
They look like
they care about me."
00:02:46.36\00:02:48.63
And so we lost
our focus on Jesus
00:02:48.66\00:02:53.30
and the focus became on
our fleshly desires and,
00:02:53.37\00:02:57.54
you know, everybody
suffers from something
00:02:57.57\00:02:59.57
but because we
weren't talking about this,
00:02:59.61\00:03:02.01
and this happens
often with other things,
00:03:02.04\00:03:05.05
there are people that have
been ostracized from the church
00:03:05.08\00:03:08.25
that have sexual sin,
00:03:08.28\00:03:09.95
that we kind of
refuse to talk about.
00:03:09.98\00:03:12.55
And now the pendulum has
swung the other direction.
00:03:12.59\00:03:15.82
But, you know,
God didn't forget us,
00:03:15.86\00:03:18.53
and He knows everybody's heart,
00:03:18.56\00:03:21.40
and I think He saw
that in each of our hearts
00:03:21.43\00:03:24.13
we would respond to Him,
00:03:24.17\00:03:25.77
and we're from
totally different places
00:03:25.80\00:03:27.97
in the United States and, yeah,
00:03:28.00\00:03:29.87
God came and got us and then,
00:03:29.90\00:03:31.54
put us together by
divine appointment,
00:03:31.57\00:03:34.98
helped us recognize
that there was no voice
00:03:35.01\00:03:37.75
in church environment,
00:03:37.78\00:03:39.65
that there were
many people out there
00:03:39.68\00:03:41.88
that are aching,
that are hurting,
00:03:41.92\00:03:43.45
that desperately
want to be loved,
00:03:43.49\00:03:45.49
and they want Jesus
in their life as well,
00:03:45.52\00:03:47.62
but they don't know how
to bring the two together.
00:03:47.66\00:03:49.86
And God revealed Himself to us
00:03:49.89\00:03:52.79
and we are very much
standing on God's word
00:03:52.83\00:03:55.80
and want people to realize that
they can take God at His word.
00:03:55.83\00:03:59.67
And so, Coming Out
Ministries, 5.5 years ago,
00:03:59.70\00:04:05.41
developed and formed
on I Peter 2:9 that says,
00:04:05.44\00:04:09.78
"He brought us out of darkness
into His marvelous light."
00:04:09.81\00:04:12.75
Amen.
00:04:12.78\00:04:14.12
That's true.
00:04:14.15\00:04:15.48
You have anything to add, Mike?
00:04:15.52\00:04:16.89
No, that was pretty fantastic.
00:04:16.92\00:04:19.02
One other things that I think
is really remarkable is like
00:04:19.05\00:04:21.46
Wayne was saying that,
00:04:21.49\00:04:22.82
not only do we come from
all across the United States
00:04:22.86\00:04:25.36
but each one of us
have such a diverse story
00:04:25.39\00:04:27.86
and, really,
that really makes up
00:04:27.86\00:04:29.63
the whole picture of
redemption through Christ.
00:04:29.66\00:04:34.10
And you featured that
in Journey Interrupted
00:04:34.14\00:04:38.44
which is just
an incredible film.
00:04:38.47\00:04:41.81
And I'd like to
show the trailer from it
00:04:41.84\00:04:43.81
because I'd like
for our viewers to see,
00:04:43.85\00:04:46.72
'cause they're
gonna be watching,
00:04:46.78\00:04:48.12
you know, on Dare to Dream.
00:04:48.15\00:04:49.48
We are going to air
it, we've aired it already
00:04:49.52\00:04:51.19
and we're going to
continue to air it periodically,
00:04:51.22\00:04:54.06
and so I'd like for them
to kind of get a sense of
00:04:54.12\00:04:56.99
what this film is about.
00:04:57.03\00:04:58.49
So let's see it now.
00:04:58.53\00:05:00.23
I would look in the mirror
00:05:04.60\00:05:05.93
and I would punch
myself in the face,
00:05:05.97\00:05:07.64
and I would scream at God,
00:05:07.67\00:05:09.24
and I would yell at
Him and I would say,
00:05:09.27\00:05:10.71
"Why, God, why?
00:05:10.74\00:05:13.61
Why did you create a boy
00:05:13.68\00:05:15.04
when I was
supposed to be a girl?"
00:05:15.08\00:05:16.68
So I prayed and I said,
"I don't wanna live, Lord.
00:05:21.88\00:05:25.09
Take me now."
00:05:25.12\00:05:26.45
I just don't wanna go
through what's coming.
00:05:26.49\00:05:28.09
I felt dirty.
00:05:28.12\00:05:29.49
I felt...
00:05:29.52\00:05:30.86
Well, I have been tainted.
00:05:30.93\00:05:32.93
I thought,
"Okay, well, obviously,
00:05:32.96\00:05:34.30
this is something that I
can't really tell anyone about."
00:05:34.30\00:05:37.33
I'm crying in my bed at night
00:05:37.37\00:05:38.73
because these
things are happening
00:05:38.77\00:05:40.40
and, Jesus, I
can't hear Him anymore.
00:05:40.44\00:05:46.78
I said, "How dare You?
00:05:46.84\00:05:48.41
You say that I'm an abomination
when You made me this way,
00:05:48.44\00:05:50.81
that's not fair.
00:05:50.85\00:05:52.18
I didn't choose this thing,
I didn't want this thing."
00:05:52.21\00:05:54.52
Why would I join a
religion that tells me that
00:05:54.55\00:05:56.45
I'm just gonna die
for being who I am?
00:05:56.48\00:05:58.82
Is this a different God
than I was acquainted with,
00:05:58.85\00:06:02.82
when I was little?
00:06:02.86\00:06:06.39
I finally decided to
just accept who I was,
00:06:06.43\00:06:09.36
and give up.
00:06:09.40\00:06:11.40
I believed that I was gay
00:06:11.43\00:06:13.47
and that it didn't
match up with God's word,
00:06:13.54\00:06:15.67
and I was like, "Oh, well,
00:06:15.70\00:06:17.04
I don't know what
to do about that."
00:06:17.11\00:06:18.47
I just kind of
pushed everybody aside,
00:06:18.51\00:06:21.21
including my mom,
00:06:21.24\00:06:22.58
I just felt like,
"Nobody else has been there,
00:06:22.61\00:06:25.08
why would she?"
00:06:25.11\00:06:26.45
I was desperate to
be secure in my sin.
00:06:26.48\00:06:28.78
I did whatever I could.
00:06:28.82\00:06:30.39
I was, I was...
00:06:30.42\00:06:31.75
Tell me lies, tell me lies.
00:06:31.79\00:06:33.99
Lie to me.
00:06:34.06\00:06:35.39
I found myself on my knees
00:06:40.70\00:06:43.23
at the end of my bed and I said,
00:06:43.26\00:06:46.03
"God, I don't know
how you could forgive me."
00:06:46.07\00:06:49.14
You still want me,
00:06:49.17\00:06:50.51
'cause everybody
else rejected me,
00:06:50.57\00:06:52.07
everybody else
turned their back on me,
00:06:52.11\00:06:53.88
you wanna go too now?
00:06:53.94\00:06:55.71
It's as though the devil
was not going to let me go.
00:06:55.74\00:07:00.58
And if he could not entice
me, he would turn to violence.
00:07:00.65\00:07:04.22
It's time for us
to talk about this.
00:07:04.25\00:07:06.02
It's time for us to offer help.
00:07:06.05\00:07:07.69
If He is who I've
been reading that He is,
00:07:07.72\00:07:11.49
it all makes sense.
00:07:11.53\00:07:13.96
How like God, to show me that
00:07:14.00\00:07:16.43
when I really
started opening up myself
00:07:16.46\00:07:19.17
and making myself
the most vulnerable
00:07:19.20\00:07:21.30
I've ever been
in my entire life,
00:07:21.34\00:07:22.67
that what I get
instead was not rejection,
00:07:22.70\00:07:25.54
but acceptance.
00:07:25.57\00:07:27.51
I shed My blood for you,
00:07:27.58\00:07:30.85
so that you can
claim this victory.
00:07:30.88\00:07:34.12
It's freely yours.
00:07:34.15\00:07:35.52
All you have to do is
give your heart to Me.
00:07:35.55\00:07:38.82
Wow!
00:07:44.89\00:07:46.23
What a great piece of work!
00:07:46.26\00:07:48.33
We have really enjoyed
showing it on Dare to Dream,
00:07:48.36\00:07:51.70
and as I said before,
we're going to continue to,
00:07:51.73\00:07:54.10
because your
stories are so powerful.
00:07:54.14\00:07:57.67
And we know that
you've been going around
00:07:57.71\00:08:00.31
to different places
and people have questions,
00:08:00.34\00:08:03.78
and so we want to ask
some of those questions today,
00:08:03.81\00:08:09.08
that you can
help our viewers with
00:08:09.12\00:08:11.19
because we know that
there are people all around
00:08:11.22\00:08:13.99
who want to know these things.
00:08:14.02\00:08:16.06
So, Jay, you wanna start?
00:08:16.09\00:08:17.89
Why not? Okay.
00:08:17.93\00:08:19.26
I'll start with the first one.
00:08:19.29\00:08:20.63
Ron, this is for you.
00:08:20.66\00:08:21.96
There are a lot of messages
00:08:22.00\00:08:23.60
that are being circulated
in church culture today,
00:08:23.67\00:08:26.74
regarding the LGBT issue,
00:08:26.77\00:08:29.57
what is the message
of Coming Out Ministries?
00:08:29.60\00:08:32.54
So much of what is
taught and what is heard today
00:08:32.57\00:08:37.08
comes from a
worldly perspective,
00:08:37.15\00:08:39.65
from political correctness,
00:08:39.68\00:08:41.48
from conventional
thinking, from human reasoning,
00:08:41.52\00:08:44.72
but the foundation of
our message is really found
00:08:44.75\00:08:47.82
in the word of God.
00:08:47.86\00:08:49.19
I John 4:8 tells
us that God is love
00:08:49.22\00:08:52.59
and then we read
in the II Timothy 3,
00:08:52.63\00:08:56.56
that all scripture is
given by inspiration of God,
00:08:56.63\00:08:59.40
this God of love, it is
profitable for doctrine,
00:08:59.43\00:09:02.67
for reproof, for
correction, for instruction,
00:09:02.70\00:09:05.87
in righteousness,
00:09:05.91\00:09:07.24
that the Man of
God may be perfect,
00:09:07.31\00:09:08.88
truly furnished
unto all good works.
00:09:08.91\00:09:11.21
So we believe
that if God is love,
00:09:11.25\00:09:15.18
then everything
that He admonishes us,
00:09:15.22\00:09:19.32
His warnings, His reproof,
00:09:19.35\00:09:21.19
His promises, His counsels,
00:09:21.22\00:09:23.46
His judgments,
00:09:23.49\00:09:24.83
everything comes from the heart
of a loving heavenly Father.
00:09:24.86\00:09:28.80
And so we approach this
issue from the word of God
00:09:28.83\00:09:34.04
and we accept what He
says about the LGBT issue,
00:09:34.07\00:09:38.77
the gay issue,
00:09:38.81\00:09:40.18
and our lives need to
measure up to His expectations.
00:09:40.21\00:09:45.18
The word of God to us
is like an owner's manual.
00:09:45.21\00:09:48.18
And we believe
that our Creator knows
00:09:48.22\00:09:52.29
what's best for His created
00:09:52.32\00:09:54.32
and our heavenly Father knows
what's best for the children
00:09:54.36\00:09:57.16
that He loves so much and
so that is our perspective.
00:09:57.23\00:10:00.83
Nice.
00:10:00.90\00:10:02.20
Yeah, I have heard
the Bible described as
00:10:02.23\00:10:03.63
"Basic Instructions
Before Leaving Earth."
00:10:03.67\00:10:06.90
An acronym, right?
00:10:06.94\00:10:08.27
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:08.30\00:10:09.74
Nice, nice.
00:10:09.77\00:10:11.11
Wayne, if God is love,
00:10:11.14\00:10:13.27
why would He be
opposed to two people
00:10:13.34\00:10:15.38
loving each other exclusively,
00:10:15.41\00:10:18.58
in monogamous gay relationship?
00:10:18.61\00:10:21.98
Why would He be opposed to that?
00:10:22.02\00:10:25.22
Well, we have a little bit
of a misperception about love.
00:10:25.25\00:10:31.93
I think when we
look to God's pure love,
00:10:31.96\00:10:34.63
sometimes we don't study it,
00:10:34.66\00:10:38.63
to pick up the full
meaning of that love.
00:10:38.67\00:10:41.87
What happens is that we
get so focused on ourselves,
00:10:41.90\00:10:45.37
we begin to interpret
our desires to be loved,
00:10:45.41\00:10:50.38
and so we don't have
a perfect reflection of
00:10:50.41\00:10:53.45
what God's love really is.
00:10:53.48\00:10:55.05
I have...
00:10:55.08\00:10:56.42
For me, personally, I
have to look to God's word
00:10:56.45\00:10:59.25
to see what brings
honor and glory to Him.
00:10:59.29\00:11:02.49
And as I studied
through God's word
00:11:02.52\00:11:04.73
in both the Old
Testament and the New Testament,
00:11:04.76\00:11:07.93
He upholds marriage as being
that between a man and a woman,
00:11:07.96\00:11:13.30
and there's not
a single occurrence
00:11:13.34\00:11:17.07
of same-sex
intimacy in God's word
00:11:17.11\00:11:20.34
that He would show that
He ordains and sanctifies.
00:11:20.38\00:11:24.78
That's a big clue
to me to know that
00:11:24.81\00:11:27.52
whether I'm on the right track
00:11:27.58\00:11:28.92
or whether maybe I
need to put my focus
00:11:28.95\00:11:32.85
back on the word and see
00:11:32.89\00:11:34.22
what I can
learn from God's word.
00:11:34.26\00:11:35.66
If we don't understand
the plan of salvation,
00:11:35.69\00:11:39.23
if we don't understand
what happened in heaven,
00:11:39.26\00:11:42.56
what the great controversy is,
00:11:42.60\00:11:44.67
that's when our vision
starts getting distorted.
00:11:44.70\00:11:49.60
And so looking to Jesus,
00:11:49.64\00:11:50.97
we started looking at self
and what my desires are and,
00:11:51.01\00:11:54.11
you know, as I shared, you know,
00:11:54.14\00:11:55.48
even in the film,
00:11:55.51\00:11:57.08
was that there weren't
people helping us along the way.
00:11:57.11\00:12:00.12
We weren't studying,
we weren't sitting down
00:12:00.15\00:12:03.15
and finding out
00:12:03.18\00:12:05.29
what is God really asking of me.
00:12:05.32\00:12:07.16
And even in the New Testament,
00:12:07.19\00:12:08.62
we see that God is
calling us to self-denial.
00:12:08.66\00:12:11.79
Why would we deny
something of ourselves
00:12:11.83\00:12:14.40
that is good for us?
00:12:14.46\00:12:16.00
You know, we wouldn't.
00:12:16.03\00:12:17.43
So I have to look and
see what God is calling me to
00:12:17.47\00:12:20.50
and outside of the
perfect plan of marriage
00:12:20.54\00:12:25.51
between one man and one woman,
00:12:25.54\00:12:28.28
God doesn't give
me permission to go
00:12:28.31\00:12:30.85
and to do as my flesh desires.
00:12:30.91\00:12:33.58
So I need to fall in
love with Jesus first,
00:12:33.62\00:12:37.49
before I would recognize that
00:12:37.55\00:12:39.65
I would give
something up for Him.
00:12:39.69\00:12:41.96
And so it's hard, you know,
00:12:41.99\00:12:44.09
to anyone who's
watching or listening to this,
00:12:44.13\00:12:49.33
it's hard to give up something
that comes so natural to you,
00:12:49.36\00:12:53.37
but what is natural?
00:12:53.40\00:12:55.00
What's natural to
us is actually sin.
00:12:55.04\00:12:58.17
And we've come to
a point in life today
00:12:58.21\00:13:01.01
that we're listening to
the voices of the world,
00:13:01.04\00:13:03.14
the language of others,
00:13:03.18\00:13:04.85
campaigns out there that
says, "Follow your heart.
00:13:04.88\00:13:08.38
Listen to yours, you know,
00:13:08.42\00:13:09.75
what your soul
is saying to you."
00:13:09.78\00:13:11.92
But what I found that
I needed to listen to,
00:13:11.95\00:13:14.32
was what God is saying to me.
00:13:14.36\00:13:16.49
And so, marriage by definition,
it isn't the same-sex union,
00:13:16.52\00:13:21.73
and I don't see that
anywhere in God's word
00:13:21.76\00:13:24.77
that He does
show approval for this
00:13:24.80\00:13:26.70
and so it really isn't
representative of God's pure
00:13:26.74\00:13:30.71
or ultimate love for us.
00:13:30.77\00:13:33.34
That's a great answer.
00:13:33.38\00:13:34.71
Yeah, it is.
00:13:34.74\00:13:36.44
That's a great answer.
00:13:36.48\00:13:38.38
I was gonna say something,
00:13:38.41\00:13:39.75
but I had a
minor case of amnesia.
00:13:39.78\00:13:43.95
So we'll get
back to the questions.
00:13:43.99\00:13:46.39
You're so young.
00:13:46.42\00:13:49.29
All right,
Danielle, this is for you.
00:13:49.32\00:13:51.79
How can I, as a Christian,
00:13:51.83\00:13:53.16
minister to someone
who identifies as LGBTQ?
00:13:53.19\00:13:57.30
It's a great question
that we actually get a lot,
00:13:57.33\00:13:59.40
almost everywhere that we go,
00:13:59.43\00:14:01.30
and the beautiful
thing I think is that
00:14:01.34\00:14:03.17
we would minister to them
00:14:03.20\00:14:04.71
just like we would minister
to anyone else, you know.
00:14:04.74\00:14:07.58
Christ is very
effective in reaching the people
00:14:07.61\00:14:10.25
in the way that He
spent time with them,
00:14:10.28\00:14:13.42
you know, He
showed His sympathy,
00:14:13.45\00:14:15.12
He showed them by His
actions that He cared for them
00:14:15.15\00:14:18.15
and it was
through that action that
00:14:18.19\00:14:20.46
He showed that
He could be trusted
00:14:20.49\00:14:23.73
and that He had their
best interest in mind.
00:14:23.76\00:14:26.80
And it was through building
that kind of a confidence
00:14:26.83\00:14:29.66
between Him and the
people He was trying to reach,
00:14:29.70\00:14:32.57
that He was able, eventually,
to invite them to follow Him.
00:14:32.60\00:14:36.17
And I think that that's
what we have to remember
00:14:36.20\00:14:38.34
that we have to do.
00:14:38.37\00:14:39.71
No one is gonna be
interested in understanding
00:14:39.74\00:14:42.98
our ideas of life, and
philosophy, and morals,
00:14:43.01\00:14:47.38
if they don't
really believe that
00:14:47.42\00:14:49.08
we have their
best interests in mind.
00:14:49.12\00:14:51.29
And so the best
thing that we can do is
00:14:51.32\00:14:53.02
just to step forward
00:14:53.05\00:14:55.06
and to build a
friendship with them.
00:14:55.09\00:14:56.93
Build that kind
of trust with them.
00:14:56.99\00:14:58.73
And so often with any person
00:14:58.76\00:15:00.83
who lives
differently than we do,
00:15:00.86\00:15:02.96
it's easy for us to
focus on the differences
00:15:03.00\00:15:05.30
that we have from them
and feel that the walls go up
00:15:05.33\00:15:08.97
because of those differences
00:15:09.00\00:15:10.71
and our focus
on the differences.
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.14
But if we focus on the
commonalities that we have,
00:15:12.17\00:15:15.64
we can find that
those are the bridges
00:15:15.68\00:15:17.65
into the person's heart
00:15:17.68\00:15:19.01
and we can connect
through those simple things,
00:15:19.05\00:15:21.28
and then just build like I said,
00:15:21.32\00:15:24.39
that confidence
and that friendship.
00:15:24.42\00:15:26.42
And it's through
the friendship that,
00:15:26.45\00:15:27.79
eventually,
they'll see something
00:15:27.82\00:15:29.16
different in our lives.
00:15:29.19\00:15:31.16
They'll see something
that they want to have,
00:15:31.19\00:15:33.50
the joy, and the peace,
00:15:33.53\00:15:34.93
and the
gentleness, and the meekness,
00:15:34.93\00:15:36.50
the fruits of the Spirit,
00:15:36.53\00:15:38.37
and it will be those
things that will draw them
00:15:38.40\00:15:40.90
into having a
desire to know more about
00:15:40.94\00:15:42.80
what's working for us.
00:15:42.84\00:15:44.31
At least, that's
what happened for me
00:15:44.34\00:15:46.37
and what drew me
into having a desire
00:15:46.41\00:15:48.51
to learn more about
Christ from my Christian friends
00:15:48.54\00:15:51.61
and so I think that that's
what we have to do with anyone
00:15:51.65\00:15:55.02
and especially with people
00:15:55.05\00:15:56.38
who are struggling
with same-sex attraction,
00:15:56.42\00:15:58.55
gender confusion.
00:15:58.59\00:16:00.22
And all along
the way, of course,
00:16:00.29\00:16:01.79
we can't move one step
forward without prayer.
00:16:01.82\00:16:05.46
And that is something
that each one of us acknowledge
00:16:05.49\00:16:08.53
in our own personal
experiences was that,
00:16:08.56\00:16:10.87
it was the prayers of the people
00:16:10.90\00:16:12.73
that we loved,
00:16:12.77\00:16:14.14
that really allowed
angels to come into our lives,
00:16:14.17\00:16:16.34
allowed the Holy
Spirit to come into our lives
00:16:16.37\00:16:18.11
when we needed it the most.
00:16:18.14\00:16:19.94
And sometimes we look at
prayer as our last result,
00:16:19.97\00:16:24.28
but really it's
our first defense.
00:16:24.31\00:16:26.25
We need to be consistently
00:16:26.28\00:16:27.78
and intentionally
praying for the people
00:16:27.82\00:16:29.65
that we want to minister to
00:16:29.68\00:16:31.52
and that's the only way
that we're gonna be effective.
00:16:31.55\00:16:33.69
Absolutely.
00:16:33.76\00:16:35.42
It came back to me.
00:16:35.46\00:16:36.83
Okay, so...
00:16:36.86\00:16:39.43
What I was gonna say was,
when you were talking, Wayne,
00:16:39.46\00:16:43.16
you know, we
search for all the answers
00:16:43.20\00:16:45.30
in all the wrong
places when really
00:16:45.33\00:16:47.67
the right answers are contained
in the word of God, you know,
00:16:47.70\00:16:50.94
that's the book of life
00:16:50.97\00:16:52.31
and what the world
has for us is death,
00:16:52.34\00:16:54.58
you know, so we search the world
00:16:54.61\00:16:57.91
and all these
different perspectives
00:16:57.95\00:17:00.35
to fill a void that
only Christ can fill.
00:17:00.38\00:17:03.52
And what you
were saying, Danielle,
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.19
is excellent because without
00:17:05.22\00:17:08.79
kind of
cultivating a relationship,
00:17:08.82\00:17:10.96
without getting to know people,
00:17:10.99\00:17:12.99
like you don't
just introduce them to,
00:17:13.03\00:17:15.30
okay, no, you can't eat pork.
00:17:15.33\00:17:17.37
No, you can't do this.
00:17:17.40\00:17:19.00
No, you can't do...
00:17:19.03\00:17:20.37
Why?
00:17:20.44\00:17:21.80
You know, you have
to know about Christ
00:17:21.84\00:17:24.64
and what's that He wants.
00:17:24.67\00:17:26.91
What He wants
for you is the best.
00:17:26.98\00:17:29.24
He wants to prolong your life.
00:17:29.28\00:17:30.65
He wants you to be saved.
00:17:30.68\00:17:32.01
He wants to save you.
00:17:32.05\00:17:33.38
I like to elaborate
just a little bit in that,
00:17:33.42\00:17:37.19
you know, doesn't...
00:17:37.22\00:17:38.95
Is God trustworthy?
00:17:38.99\00:17:41.09
You know, that's the first thing
00:17:41.12\00:17:42.46
that has to come
to any of our mind.
00:17:42.49\00:17:43.83
Can I trust God?
00:17:43.86\00:17:45.19
Because if I don't develop that,
00:17:45.23\00:17:47.00
then I'm not going to
want to abide by His Word.
00:17:47.03\00:17:50.33
I have to go
back to the beginning
00:17:50.37\00:17:52.27
and ask myself,
was the forbidden...
00:17:52.30\00:17:54.97
Was the fruit on
the forbidden tree,
00:17:55.00\00:17:56.97
was it delicious?
00:17:57.01\00:17:58.34
Was it good?
00:17:58.37\00:17:59.71
Why did God not want
Adam and Eve to partake of it?
00:17:59.74\00:18:03.14
You know, and really what
it boils down to is His Word
00:18:03.18\00:18:07.08
because He asked them not to.
00:18:07.15\00:18:09.12
And so something may feel
good, it may seem right to us,
00:18:09.15\00:18:13.79
but God knows better
00:18:13.82\00:18:16.19
and He's trying to
protect us, you know,
00:18:16.22\00:18:17.99
His law is law,
00:18:18.03\00:18:19.73
and that's the part about
the friendship evangelism,
00:18:19.76\00:18:23.13
by introducing someone to Jesus,
00:18:23.16\00:18:26.94
and helping them see
that they can trust Him,
00:18:26.97\00:18:30.14
and fall in love with Him,
00:18:30.21\00:18:31.61
then His principles become
00:18:31.64\00:18:33.88
something that I can
practically apply to my life.
00:18:33.91\00:18:36.41
Absolutely.
00:18:36.44\00:18:37.78
That's where you start.
00:18:37.81\00:18:39.51
You start by, you know,
00:18:39.55\00:18:41.92
connecting with people and
you introduce them to Jesus
00:18:41.95\00:18:45.32
because
everything else after that,
00:18:45.35\00:18:47.86
if you go out of sequence,
it doesn't make any sense.
00:18:47.89\00:18:52.56
You just, you know,
00:18:52.59\00:18:53.93
you'll fall in a legalistic path
00:18:54.00\00:18:55.80
or whatever but if you
00:18:55.83\00:18:57.17
go down that path of
00:18:57.23\00:18:58.57
introducing them to Jesus first,
00:18:58.60\00:19:01.27
you know, that
means that everything else
00:19:01.30\00:19:04.04
then just falls
sequentially into place,
00:19:04.07\00:19:06.91
so that's really the key.
00:19:06.94\00:19:08.84
That's why it's
important to live Christianity
00:19:08.88\00:19:11.51
and not just really profess it.
00:19:11.55\00:19:13.28
You know, you can
say things all day
00:19:13.31\00:19:16.18
but someone needs a
coat, you have a coat.
00:19:16.22\00:19:19.29
I mean, you have an extra coat
00:19:19.32\00:19:21.12
or you have a
coat that they need
00:19:21.16\00:19:22.99
and you don't give it to them.
00:19:23.02\00:19:24.73
You'll be like,
"Oh, I'll pray for you."
00:19:24.76\00:19:26.09
You're right.
00:19:26.13\00:19:27.46
I'll pray for you,
00:19:27.50\00:19:28.83
but you're not meeting their
need at that time, you know.
00:19:28.86\00:19:32.13
Michael, how do
you respond to people
00:19:32.17\00:19:35.07
who quote the text that says,
00:19:35.10\00:19:37.77
text that appeared to be
definitive about homosexuality?
00:19:37.81\00:19:41.48
How do you deal
with people with that?
00:19:41.51\00:19:44.15
You know, I try to use
my own experience, you know,
00:19:44.18\00:19:46.95
with that question.
00:19:47.02\00:19:48.35
And, Jason, I believe that
00:19:48.38\00:19:50.42
you didn't forget the
statement you want to make.
00:19:50.49\00:19:52.65
I believe that the Lord
just held it back a little
00:19:52.69\00:19:54.66
because you talked
about how making the base
00:19:54.69\00:19:57.03
just the word of God.
00:19:57.06\00:19:58.39
I remember when I was
baptized and told my boyfriend,
00:19:58.43\00:20:01.20
"Now, here I am,
you know, an Adventist",
00:20:01.23\00:20:03.73
and he dragged me to
the Unitarian church,
00:20:03.77\00:20:06.63
to the gay church,
00:20:06.70\00:20:08.04
and we sat there with
the priest in the gay church
00:20:08.07\00:20:10.07
and she went through
all of the different texts
00:20:10.11\00:20:12.74
about
homosexuality in the Bible.
00:20:12.77\00:20:14.74
And as desperate as I was
to hold on to my boyfriend
00:20:14.78\00:20:18.11
and my identity,
00:20:18.15\00:20:19.78
even the Holy Spirit was
giving me this understanding
00:20:19.81\00:20:23.99
and every scripture
text that she was using,
00:20:24.05\00:20:27.46
it didn't even make
sense from my perspective,
00:20:27.52\00:20:30.19
and I wasn't a Bible, you
know, scholar and here she was,
00:20:30.23\00:20:33.56
and I remember
thinking to myself,
00:20:33.60\00:20:34.93
"Well, that's a
silly explanation."
00:20:34.96\00:20:36.80
You know, it's interesting
people talk about, you know,
00:20:36.83\00:20:39.07
show me a scripture text
that talks about, you know,
00:20:39.10\00:20:41.70
same-sex monogamy.
00:20:41.74\00:20:43.07
Well, there is one in Leviticus
00:20:43.10\00:20:44.57
and it says when a
man lies with a man,
00:20:44.61\00:20:47.41
a monogamous relationship,
00:20:47.44\00:20:48.94
that it's an
abomination, you know.
00:20:48.98\00:20:51.11
And so there we have a
very literal example of that,
00:20:51.15\00:20:54.85
and then, of course, you
can go to Romans chapter 1
00:20:54.88\00:20:57.79
where it talks about serving
00:20:57.82\00:21:00.49
the creature
rather than the Creator.
00:21:00.56\00:21:02.99
And then in Jude, it
talks about the sin of Sodom
00:21:03.02\00:21:06.13
and Gomorrah wasn't hospitality,
00:21:06.16\00:21:08.03
it was lust and lust wasn't
restricted to just same-sex,
00:21:08.06\00:21:12.17
behavior was
also lust in general,
00:21:12.20\00:21:14.70
and then, you know,
00:21:14.74\00:21:16.07
when I think about
those applications for me,
00:21:16.10\00:21:19.71
as I really started to study
the word of God for myself,
00:21:19.74\00:21:22.51
I realized that God
wasn't condemning the person
00:21:22.54\00:21:25.15
that had same-sex attraction,
00:21:25.18\00:21:26.88
He was condemning the behavior,
00:21:26.92\00:21:29.02
which for me was a
whole breakthrough,
00:21:29.05\00:21:31.22
it's like, thank you, God,
00:21:31.25\00:21:32.59
that I'm not guilty just
because I have these thoughts
00:21:32.62\00:21:35.06
because I believe that
God knows there's a reason
00:21:35.09\00:21:37.73
why you have those thoughts.
00:21:37.76\00:21:39.36
But as long as you're
not acting in that behavior
00:21:39.39\00:21:41.60
because those
behaviors separate You from me,
00:21:41.63\00:21:44.47
they cut you off from the things
00:21:44.50\00:21:46.67
that God wants to bless us with,
00:21:46.70\00:21:48.40
and so I started to
realize that there are reasons
00:21:48.44\00:21:50.87
for why I had those attractions.
00:21:50.91\00:21:52.87
But that God says,
"By not acting in them,
00:21:52.91\00:21:56.04
I can address them and I
can bring you into healing."
00:21:56.08\00:21:59.08
And that was
powerful for me, personally.
00:21:59.11\00:22:01.18
Feel like I'm so
glad you brought this out
00:22:01.22\00:22:03.12
because it's the act
that's the abomination,
00:22:03.15\00:22:06.86
not the person.
00:22:06.89\00:22:08.22
Yes.
00:22:08.26\00:22:09.59
And I think so often we
can get caught up, you know,
00:22:09.62\00:22:13.43
as a church and
saying, you know,
00:22:13.50\00:22:15.96
well, this is an abomination,
you're an abomination.
00:22:16.00\00:22:18.67
No, you, the one who's
in, who's caught up in that,
00:22:18.70\00:22:23.04
you're not the abomination,
the act is, and that's the key.
00:22:23.07\00:22:28.18
God loves you.
00:22:28.21\00:22:29.54
He loves you just as
you are. He loves you.
00:22:29.58\00:22:32.08
He's not gonna
keep you as you are.
00:22:32.11\00:22:33.98
You're not gonna stay as
you are once you turn to God
00:22:34.02\00:22:36.95
but He loves you
right where you are
00:22:36.99\00:22:39.52
and I think that's
what people need to know.
00:22:39.55\00:22:41.16
Yeah.
00:22:41.19\00:22:42.52
So the other part about,
00:22:42.56\00:22:43.89
if we accept the
word of God as the manual,
00:22:43.93\00:22:47.76
as you said, Jason,
then what's happening now is
00:22:47.83\00:22:50.23
we have this gay
affirming group in Christianity,
00:22:50.30\00:22:52.73
even in our own
denomination that are saying
00:22:52.77\00:22:55.10
that the words of
Moses and Paul are,
00:22:55.14\00:22:57.97
they don't apply anymore.
00:22:58.01\00:22:59.34
Archaic.
00:22:59.37\00:23:00.78
Yeah, that they're archaic
00:23:00.81\00:23:02.14
and so we should just
take them out of the Bible.
00:23:02.18\00:23:03.55
So, you know,
00:23:03.58\00:23:04.91
even when you look at
I Corinthians chapter 6,
00:23:04.95\00:23:07.15
that to all of us
was extremely powerful
00:23:07.22\00:23:10.52
because it says
in verse 11, it says,
00:23:10.59\00:23:12.39
"Such were some of you, "
00:23:12.42\00:23:14.29
and it wasn't talking
about just the homosexual,
00:23:14.32\00:23:16.39
which it does mention,
00:23:16.42\00:23:17.83
it was talking about adulterers,
00:23:17.86\00:23:20.20
or fornicators,
gossip, you know,
00:23:20.23\00:23:22.60
so all of those things in
verse 11 is really wrapped up
00:23:22.63\00:23:26.37
the promise that,
00:23:26.40\00:23:27.74
"Hey, I can give
you something beyond
00:23:27.77\00:23:29.37
what you've experienced now."
00:23:29.40\00:23:31.11
And for us, especially, for us,
00:23:31.14\00:23:34.24
we find that that's
a great promise that
00:23:34.28\00:23:36.75
we'd never heard before
even in Christian culture.
00:23:36.81\00:23:40.08
I'm glad that you said
that because, you know,
00:23:40.12\00:23:42.62
we have a tendency to put
different sins on pedestals.
00:23:42.65\00:23:45.59
Okay, come on.
00:23:45.62\00:23:48.06
Homosexual sin and
heterosexual sin is what?
00:23:48.09\00:23:51.56
Sin. You're right.
00:23:51.59\00:23:53.76
I call it what it is, you know.
00:23:53.80\00:23:55.50
If you're a
heterosexual and you sin,
00:23:55.53\00:23:57.40
you're gonna end up
in the same, you know,
00:23:57.43\00:24:00.34
it can get pretty hot, you know.
00:24:00.37\00:24:01.94
Right.
00:24:01.97\00:24:03.30
And if you are a
homosexual and you sin,
00:24:03.34\00:24:06.68
it can get pretty hot.
00:24:06.71\00:24:08.48
You know, a sin is sin.
00:24:08.51\00:24:10.85
There is a story in the Bible.
00:24:10.88\00:24:12.78
There was a lady,
and I forgot who it was,
00:24:12.81\00:24:17.29
but she was been
judged by a bunch of men.
00:24:17.32\00:24:20.49
She was an adulterer.
00:24:20.56\00:24:23.06
And she was being
judged by a bunch of men,
00:24:23.09\00:24:24.76
and they were
ready to stone her,
00:24:24.79\00:24:26.83
and I don't know what
it was about those times
00:24:26.90\00:24:30.23
but people were
so just, they would,
00:24:30.27\00:24:31.80
just seem to be ready
to stone people some times.
00:24:31.83\00:24:34.34
So, they were prepared to
stone this lady and Jesus said,
00:24:34.37\00:24:39.81
"He who's without sin,
let him cast the first stone,"
00:24:39.84\00:24:42.48
and He started writing
out in the sand people's sin.
00:24:42.51\00:24:45.51
Well, you can
imagine the crowd dispersed
00:24:45.55\00:24:47.75
very, very, very fast.
00:24:47.78\00:24:50.49
You know, people look and judge,
00:24:50.55\00:24:55.36
but sin is sin.
00:24:55.39\00:24:57.89
Sin is sin.
00:24:57.93\00:24:59.63
And the great
thing about Jesus is
00:24:59.66\00:25:03.37
He'll take you wherever you are
00:25:03.40\00:25:06.10
and He'll heal
those broken spots.
00:25:06.13\00:25:10.21
Amen.
00:25:10.24\00:25:11.57
He'll just heal
all of your brokenness
00:25:11.61\00:25:13.21
and that's what we all need.
00:25:13.24\00:25:15.84
We all need it
'cause we all have sin.
00:25:15.88\00:25:18.48
Yeah, there's this
cop out today though,
00:25:18.51\00:25:21.88
in Church
congregations, you know,
00:25:21.92\00:25:25.65
the way they wanna
look at homosexuality,
00:25:25.69\00:25:27.49
because it's kind of like
on the cutting edge these days,
00:25:27.56\00:25:31.06
is that while we're all sinners,
00:25:31.09\00:25:32.73
you know, yeah,
00:25:32.76\00:25:34.10
we all are and so we
should be helping each other.
00:25:34.10\00:25:36.33
James 5:16 says,
"Hey, let's come together.
00:25:36.36\00:25:39.13
Let's pray for one another.
00:25:39.17\00:25:40.60
Let's pray for the
healing that God promises.
00:25:40.64\00:25:43.37
We should be
able to come together
00:25:43.41\00:25:44.74
and lift each
other up in prayer.
00:25:44.77\00:25:46.37
Not leave
ourselves the way we are
00:25:46.41\00:25:49.01
but to let Jesus
bring about change
00:25:49.04\00:25:51.01
in every single
one of our lives."
00:25:51.05\00:25:52.38
Yeah, Christ
didn't alienate people.
00:25:52.41\00:25:54.32
That's right.
00:25:54.35\00:25:55.68
Yeah, He didn't alienate people.
00:25:55.72\00:25:57.05
Okay.
00:25:57.09\00:25:58.42
So, we have another
question for you, Danielle.
00:25:58.45\00:26:00.19
Okay.
00:26:00.22\00:26:01.89
If my child confides
in me that they are gay
00:26:01.92\00:26:04.49
or struggles with
same-sex attraction,
00:26:04.53\00:26:06.39
how should I respond?
00:26:06.43\00:26:08.56
Well, this is a
very important question
00:26:08.60\00:26:11.10
and the fact that I
think we try to help
00:26:11.13\00:26:14.80
encourage parents
everywhere that we go,
00:26:14.84\00:26:17.41
to open the
doors for conversations
00:26:17.44\00:26:19.51
with their young people,
with their children, you know.
00:26:19.54\00:26:22.38
Often we want to
drive people to see their,
00:26:22.41\00:26:26.95
what they're doing
is wrong by using shame.
00:26:27.02\00:26:29.38
And not just for us as
parents, but often in the church
00:26:29.42\00:26:33.99
or whatever situation we are,
00:26:34.06\00:26:35.56
we want to try and show people
what they're doing is wrong.
00:26:35.59\00:26:38.83
But a lot of the times
when we use shame to try
00:26:38.86\00:26:42.46
and correct someone,
00:26:42.50\00:26:44.13
it doesn't really, it doesn't
bring them to the solution.
00:26:44.17\00:26:47.50
It doesn't bring
them through the situation
00:26:47.54\00:26:49.34
and so I would
just encourage a parent
00:26:49.37\00:26:52.31
that has a child coming to
them and opening up to them,
00:26:52.34\00:26:55.68
that this is a wonderful thing,
00:26:55.71\00:26:57.21
a wonderful thing that your
child feels a level of comfort
00:26:57.25\00:27:01.55
and confidence in you
that they can come to you
00:27:01.58\00:27:04.05
and talk to you about this
00:27:04.12\00:27:05.45
because so many
young people feel
00:27:05.49\00:27:06.92
that they could
never talk to their parents
00:27:06.99\00:27:08.56
about
struggling with sexual sin.
00:27:08.59\00:27:11.69
I've met with a number of
young girls in our academies
00:27:11.73\00:27:15.96
and situations like that
00:27:16.00\00:27:17.37
where they're
struggling with pornography
00:27:17.40\00:27:18.77
or masturbation and
I've asked them if they have,
00:27:18.80\00:27:22.44
you know, had,
00:27:22.47\00:27:24.37
if they've walked forward
and talked to their parents
00:27:24.41\00:27:26.47
to have some
kind of accountability
00:27:26.51\00:27:28.51
but they're too
afraid to do that.
00:27:28.54\00:27:30.68
They don't feel like they
can have those conversations.
00:27:30.75\00:27:32.91
So the first thing I would
do is encourage this parent that
00:27:32.95\00:27:36.42
that is good, you need to keep
those channels of communication
00:27:36.45\00:27:39.29
open with your
child and so shaming them
00:27:39.32\00:27:41.26
for coming to
you is the last thing
00:27:41.29\00:27:42.79
that you should do.
00:27:42.82\00:27:44.16
But encourage them
into a true understanding
00:27:44.23\00:27:47.93
about what the
Bible really says,
00:27:47.96\00:27:49.63
I mean, when I was young,
00:27:49.66\00:27:51.33
like Wayne says
the church tells us
00:27:51.37\00:27:53.40
that homosexuality is sin
00:27:53.44\00:27:55.14
but that's the end
of the conversation.
00:27:55.17\00:27:57.07
I knew that the Bible
condemned homosexuality
00:27:57.11\00:28:00.31
but I never really understood
God's reasoning through that.
00:28:00.34\00:28:04.31
And when I sat
down with the young girl
00:28:04.35\00:28:05.91
who was
struggling with homosexuality
00:28:05.95\00:28:08.55
and I just said,
00:28:08.58\00:28:09.92
"Let's look at
some of these verses,
00:28:09.95\00:28:11.29
let's reason through this."
00:28:11.32\00:28:12.65
God says, "Come and
let us reason together."
00:28:12.69\00:28:14.46
Let's talk about
what this really says
00:28:14.49\00:28:16.12
and come to understand
00:28:16.16\00:28:17.49
why God would say
this isn't good for us.
00:28:17.56\00:28:19.83
And that made a
profound impact on
00:28:19.86\00:28:22.63
not only how she
saw homosexuality
00:28:22.66\00:28:26.60
but the choices
that she was ready
00:28:26.63\00:28:28.17
and willing to make
in her own experience.
00:28:28.20\00:28:30.24
And so, I think sitting down
and reasoning through things
00:28:30.31\00:28:33.88
with young people,
especially our children,
00:28:33.91\00:28:36.34
is most advantageous.
00:28:36.38\00:28:38.01
And then just
giving them the courage
00:28:38.05\00:28:40.62
and the hope that
Jesus can help us with this.
00:28:40.65\00:28:43.42
The world wants to tell
us that we're born this way,
00:28:43.49\00:28:45.59
we can't
change, there's no hope.
00:28:45.62\00:28:46.96
But that's simply not true.
00:28:46.99\00:28:49.16
And we have to
believe that ourselves
00:28:49.19\00:28:50.56
if we can teach that
to our children, right?
00:28:50.63\00:28:52.56
And we are here to tell
you that it is possible.
00:28:52.59\00:28:56.73
And so that's the message that
00:28:56.77\00:28:58.60
our young people
need to be hearing,
00:28:58.63\00:29:00.17
that victory is
possible in Christ.
00:29:00.20\00:29:02.27
He can give us
the victory. Amen.
00:29:02.30\00:29:04.27
So creating a comfortable
environment for the child to be
00:29:04.34\00:29:07.01
vulnerable and taking
them to the word of God,
00:29:07.04\00:29:09.14
claiming the
promises and moving forward.
00:29:09.18\00:29:12.21
Amen. Okay.
00:29:12.25\00:29:13.85
That's great. Excellent.
00:29:13.88\00:29:15.28
Yeah. For sure.
00:29:15.32\00:29:16.65
Ron, I've heard
about different people
00:29:16.72\00:29:20.99
who have kids that are gay
00:29:21.02\00:29:22.89
and their kids
are gonna get married,
00:29:22.92\00:29:25.93
not to each other but, you know,
00:29:25.96\00:29:27.83
they're gonna have a wedding.
00:29:27.86\00:29:29.93
Should a parent
attend their gay son
00:29:29.96\00:29:33.13
or daughter's wedding and
how do you deal with that?
00:29:33.17\00:29:36.24
And this is
becoming quite a dilemma
00:29:36.27\00:29:38.27
even within the church,
00:29:38.31\00:29:39.64
especially,
since the Supreme Court
00:29:39.67\00:29:44.25
passed down a ruling,
00:29:44.28\00:29:45.85
normalizing gay
marriage in all 50 states.
00:29:45.88\00:29:49.65
And as we go
from church to church,
00:29:49.68\00:29:51.32
we find that churches are
very confused about this issue,
00:29:51.35\00:29:55.39
we've even heard
people in the church say,
00:29:55.42\00:29:57.16
"Well, now that
00:29:57.23\00:29:58.56
the Supreme Court
has made a ruling,
00:29:58.59\00:29:59.93
you know, it's up to us to abide
00:29:59.96\00:30:01.26
by the laws of the land."
00:30:01.30\00:30:03.16
And we tend to forget
God's law trumps man's law.
00:30:03.20\00:30:07.40
That's right.
00:30:07.44\00:30:08.77
Because if we don't
allow God's law to be supreme,
00:30:08.80\00:30:11.84
then there's some other laws
00:30:11.87\00:30:13.21
that are going
to be coming down,
00:30:13.24\00:30:15.11
that are going to be involved
00:30:15.14\00:30:18.21
in the final
tests for God's people.
00:30:18.25\00:30:20.62
But, you know, this question,
00:30:20.68\00:30:22.82
it's a very delicate
issue, a very sensitive issue.
00:30:22.85\00:30:29.22
We don't want to be dogmatic
00:30:29.26\00:30:31.49
because we know that
parents are really caught up
00:30:31.53\00:30:35.06
with their love
for their children,
00:30:35.10\00:30:37.00
and they don't
want to hurt them,
00:30:37.03\00:30:38.37
and they want to
show unconditional love.
00:30:38.40\00:30:42.14
But we do have a
position that we take
00:30:42.17\00:30:44.74
and we hope that people will
benefit from our observation
00:30:44.77\00:30:49.21
and perspective and that is,
00:30:49.24\00:30:51.48
that in the Garden of
Eden in the very beginning,
00:30:51.51\00:30:54.42
there were two
institutions created.
00:30:54.45\00:30:57.02
There were twin
institutions. Marriage was one.
00:30:57.05\00:31:00.89
And both of these
institutions are sacred.
00:31:00.96\00:31:03.93
And as Christians, we need
to respect that marriage is
00:31:03.96\00:31:08.20
and was designed
to be a sacred union
00:31:08.23\00:31:11.40
between a man and a woman.
00:31:11.43\00:31:13.70
And if we go to a gay wedding,
00:31:13.74\00:31:18.31
we will be
giving the impression,
00:31:18.34\00:31:20.54
whether we condone it or not,
00:31:20.58\00:31:22.71
we will be giving the impression
00:31:22.74\00:31:24.91
that we condone this union,
00:31:24.95\00:31:27.12
that we are adding
our blessing to it.
00:31:27.18\00:31:30.15
And you talk
about the counterfeit,
00:31:30.19\00:31:31.95
well, this is certainly a
counterfeit of God's design
00:31:31.99\00:31:35.19
and we don't want to give
credence to the counterfeit
00:31:35.22\00:31:38.99
of what God has designed.
00:31:39.03\00:31:41.03
So, I have
counseled a number of people
00:31:41.06\00:31:44.30
that have been caught up
in these types of situations
00:31:44.33\00:31:46.53
and they're, you know,
00:31:46.57\00:31:48.87
very confused
and very concerned.
00:31:48.90\00:31:52.71
And so, you
know, we advise people,
00:31:52.74\00:31:55.44
show
unconditional love, of course,
00:31:55.48\00:31:58.21
for your son, or
daughter, or friend,
00:31:58.25\00:32:00.92
but you don't have to go
to a gay wedding to do that.
00:32:00.95\00:32:04.12
Make sure you're involved
in their lives in other ways.
00:32:04.19\00:32:07.49
We had a couple in Arkansas
00:32:07.56\00:32:10.76
that had this very issue come up
00:32:10.83\00:32:13.09
and they are gay,
00:32:13.13\00:32:14.56
one of their twin sons was gay
00:32:14.56\00:32:17.33
and he was getting
married in California.
00:32:17.37\00:32:20.30
They flew out a
week before the wedding.
00:32:20.34\00:32:22.74
They spent time with
their son and with his partner,
00:32:22.77\00:32:25.77
a lot of quality
time, doing a lot of things
00:32:25.81\00:32:28.28
that they could do
outside of a sacred setting
00:32:28.31\00:32:31.28
or what should
be a sacred setting.
00:32:31.31\00:32:33.48
They did not go to the wedding.
00:32:33.52\00:32:34.92
They did not go
to the reception.
00:32:34.95\00:32:36.85
They stayed a week afterwards
00:32:36.89\00:32:39.09
and spent more time
with the son and so forth.
00:32:39.12\00:32:42.06
And they came
home with great peace
00:32:42.09\00:32:44.29
because they
felt, and they told me,
00:32:44.33\00:32:48.06
"Our son cannot
say we were too cheap
00:32:48.10\00:32:50.13
to make the trip
00:32:50.20\00:32:51.53
or that we didn't love
him enough to be there,
00:32:51.57\00:32:54.30
because we went
far above and beyond
00:32:54.34\00:32:57.17
what he was expecting."
00:32:57.24\00:32:59.07
And then you have also,
in conjunction with that,
00:32:59.11\00:33:02.84
what about the
yearly anniversary?
00:33:02.88\00:33:04.98
We know of some churches
00:33:05.01\00:33:06.65
that actually
celebrate gay anniversaries
00:33:06.72\00:33:10.02
in the church bulletin.
00:33:10.09\00:33:11.89
And that's, you know,
that's rather shocking.
00:33:11.92\00:33:15.49
But there are ways
that we can show our love
00:33:15.52\00:33:18.13
for these people
on a continued basis
00:33:18.16\00:33:20.50
without drawing
attention to the anniversary.
00:33:20.53\00:33:23.43
We can send them
00:33:23.47\00:33:24.80
"Thinking of you"
cards throughout the year.
00:33:24.83\00:33:27.40
Don't wait for one of
these occasions to make contact.
00:33:27.44\00:33:31.87
Be in communication
00:33:31.91\00:33:33.34
and have an ongoing relationship
00:33:33.38\00:33:35.74
throughout the year.
00:33:35.78\00:33:37.31
And there are so many ways
in which you can be involved
00:33:37.35\00:33:39.68
in the lives of
these dear family members
00:33:39.71\00:33:43.15
and friends in
a secular setting,
00:33:43.18\00:33:46.49
outside of what should
be a sacred institution.
00:33:46.52\00:33:52.09
That's a great answer.
00:33:52.13\00:33:53.46
And the other
institution, at creation,
00:33:53.50\00:33:56.40
there were two,
marriage and the Sabbath.
00:33:56.43\00:33:59.27
Right. And that
would be the Sabbath.
00:33:59.30\00:34:00.74
And see, I, just to follow
up this little bit more on that,
00:34:00.77\00:34:05.31
we are being
tested, I believe today.
00:34:05.34\00:34:09.21
How are we going to stand
for one of God's commandments?
00:34:09.24\00:34:13.65
And not only is the
devil testing to see
00:34:13.72\00:34:16.79
if he can get
away with legislating
00:34:16.82\00:34:19.72
a redefinition of
marriage on a global basis,
00:34:19.75\00:34:23.93
but eventually, he's
going to try legislating
00:34:23.96\00:34:27.20
a redefinition of the
fourth commandment, Sabbath.
00:34:27.23\00:34:30.37
And we need to
realize that he's testing us
00:34:30.43\00:34:33.64
on a very sacred
institution here,
00:34:33.70\00:34:36.47
in preparation
for his final assault
00:34:36.50\00:34:40.54
on the fourth commandment
having to do with worship.
00:34:40.58\00:34:43.81
And so we need to
really think carefully
00:34:43.85\00:34:46.98
about these issues.
00:34:47.02\00:34:49.12
Good.
00:34:49.15\00:34:50.95
Mike, okay, is there
a Biblical conclusion
00:34:50.99\00:34:55.86
as to whether one is born gay?
00:34:55.89\00:34:59.53
I like the way you phrase that,
00:34:59.56\00:35:01.46
the conclusion on
your beginning, right?
00:35:01.50\00:35:04.53
So when I came to Christ,
again, I wanted to know why.
00:35:04.57\00:35:07.97
From my earliest
thoughts, you know,
00:35:08.00\00:35:09.77
I bought into the whole
idea that I was born this way.
00:35:09.80\00:35:12.04
I don't remember a time
00:35:12.07\00:35:13.68
when I wasn't odd or different
from the other boys in school.
00:35:13.71\00:35:17.15
So as God was
generous to show me
00:35:17.18\00:35:20.22
that there were reasons
or things that had happened,
00:35:20.25\00:35:23.39
I looked at even Exodus 20:8,
00:35:23.42\00:35:25.35
talking about the
sins of the generations
00:35:25.39\00:35:27.66
that have followed to
three and four generations.
00:35:27.69\00:35:30.26
And I could see even
in my parents' history,
00:35:30.33\00:35:34.00
through the generations
that there was sexual sin.
00:35:34.00\00:35:36.83
And while I wasn't born
gay, what had happened is
00:35:36.87\00:35:39.40
I got derailed by the
rejection of my father,
00:35:39.43\00:35:42.37
the gender
confusion which followed me
00:35:42.40\00:35:44.17
until I was 20 years old,
00:35:44.21\00:35:45.77
identifying with my
mother instead of my dad,
00:35:45.81\00:35:47.71
so that helped me to realize
00:35:47.74\00:35:50.11
that we were all
born in inequity,
00:35:50.15\00:35:52.35
we were all shaped in
inequity and born into sin.
00:35:52.38\00:35:55.38
And that helps me
to understand that
00:35:55.42\00:35:57.09
that was the beginning.
00:35:57.15\00:35:58.79
But the beautiful thing
00:35:58.82\00:36:00.22
and I have to go
back to the movie
00:36:00.29\00:36:01.86
and quote
something that Ron said.
00:36:01.89\00:36:03.76
He said, "Jesus does
have an answer to that,
00:36:03.79\00:36:05.66
and that we all
must be born again."
00:36:05.69\00:36:07.86
And I'd like to use, you
know, the scripture verse,
00:36:07.93\00:36:10.10
II Corinthians 5:17.
00:36:10.17\00:36:12.23
It says, "If any
man be in Christ,
00:36:12.27\00:36:13.84
he is a new creature.
00:36:13.87\00:36:15.60
Old things are passed away,
00:36:15.64\00:36:17.34
behold, all
things are become new."
00:36:17.41\00:36:19.81
And so that's why we're
not gay Christians, we're,
00:36:19.84\00:36:23.48
you know, we
don't identify ourselves
00:36:23.55\00:36:25.31
with even the sin temptation
00:36:25.35\00:36:27.02
because Jesus was
tempted like all of us
00:36:27.05\00:36:29.65
and yet without sin.
00:36:29.68\00:36:31.02
And so because I still may
struggle with those thoughts
00:36:31.05\00:36:33.56
inside my head,
00:36:33.59\00:36:34.92
I'm not
engaging in that behavior
00:36:34.96\00:36:36.49
because my identity
now is not in my struggle,
00:36:36.52\00:36:39.73
my identity now is in Christ.
00:36:39.76\00:36:42.16
And there's a beautiful
quote I'd like to share.
00:36:42.20\00:36:44.43
It says, "Through
the power of Christ,
00:36:44.47\00:36:46.43
men and women have broken
the chains of sinful habit."
00:36:46.47\00:36:50.67
That doesn't mean
that the struggle goes away
00:36:50.71\00:36:52.57
but the habit, God
gives us the victory over.
00:36:52.61\00:36:55.61
"They've renounced selfishness.
00:36:55.64\00:36:57.61
The profane had become reverent,
00:36:57.65\00:36:59.45
the drunken sober,
and the profligate pure.
00:36:59.48\00:37:03.18
Souls that have
borne the likeness of Satan
00:37:03.22\00:37:05.75
have become transformed
into the image of God.
00:37:05.79\00:37:08.46
This change is, in
itself, the miracle of miracles.
00:37:08.49\00:37:12.43
A change wrought by the Word,
00:37:12.46\00:37:14.20
it is one of the
deepest mysteries of the Word.
00:37:14.23\00:37:16.77
We cannot understand
it, we can only believe,
00:37:16.80\00:37:19.70
as declared by the Scriptures,
00:37:19.73\00:37:21.34
it is 'Christ in
you, the hope of glory.'"
00:37:21.37\00:37:24.31
And one of the scripture texts
00:37:24.34\00:37:25.74
that I use a lot in
my own presentations
00:37:25.77\00:37:28.01
is Philippians 2:5,
00:37:28.04\00:37:29.91
and simply says allowing
the mind of Christ to come in.
00:37:29.94\00:37:33.62
And so what was really
earth-shattering for me
00:37:33.65\00:37:36.18
is that, Jesus wasn't
saying, "Stop being gay,"
00:37:36.22\00:37:39.32
because He knew that
that was the struggle
00:37:39.35\00:37:42.12
that I created and
that I'd cultivated.
00:37:42.16\00:37:44.63
He was saying,
"Just stop resisting me."
00:37:44.66\00:37:46.43
Because He knew I
couldn't stop being gay.
00:37:46.46\00:37:48.66
So as I, you know,
yearned more for Christ,
00:37:48.70\00:37:52.27
as He was more faithful to me,
00:37:52.30\00:37:54.34
I started to realize that
by claiming the mind of Christ
00:37:54.37\00:37:57.17
that I found there was victory
on the other side of that.
00:37:57.21\00:38:00.44
It didn't take
away the struggle,
00:38:00.51\00:38:01.84
it didn't mean
that all of sudden,
00:38:01.88\00:38:03.21
it was gone "Poof!"
00:38:03.24\00:38:04.58
you know, like a magic wand
00:38:04.61\00:38:06.51
but instead what
it was, was this,
00:38:06.55\00:38:08.68
this combination of
working with Christ.
00:38:08.72\00:38:10.72
As I stopped resisting him,
00:38:10.75\00:38:12.45
I found that there was power
and victory over the things
00:38:12.49\00:38:14.66
that had become
master of my life.
00:38:14.69\00:38:16.09
Amen. So you're a
co-laborer with Christ?
00:38:16.12\00:38:18.59
Hallelujah. I love it.
00:38:18.63\00:38:20.86
So, Wayne, how do you
identify yourself today?
00:38:20.93\00:38:24.07
Are you an ex-gay?
00:38:24.10\00:38:25.80
Are you...
00:38:25.83\00:38:27.17
Like, where are you
in this whole thing?
00:38:27.24\00:38:29.84
You know, that was a question
that I had after my conversion
00:38:29.87\00:38:33.98
and I was at a, my
first speaking engagement.
00:38:34.01\00:38:37.35
And I said to the person
who helped me find Christ.
00:38:37.38\00:38:41.65
I said, "Oh, who am I today?"
00:38:41.68\00:38:44.39
And she said, "Oh,
you're still a gay."
00:38:44.42\00:38:46.19
And I said, "No,
I don't think so.
00:38:46.22\00:38:49.09
I couldn't possibly be
00:38:49.12\00:38:50.63
because what did I just give up?
00:38:50.66\00:38:52.63
If I just went through
this process of conversion,
00:38:52.66\00:38:55.63
and repentance,
00:38:55.66\00:38:57.13
and giving my
life over to Christ,
00:38:57.17\00:38:58.60
I'm not the same
person who I used to be."
00:38:58.63\00:39:01.30
And it became a
real focus of my study.
00:39:01.34\00:39:04.04
And as Mike alluded to,
as we're talking about, here,
00:39:04.07\00:39:08.04
about what your
true identity is,
00:39:08.08\00:39:09.81
II Corinthians
5:17 is very clear that
00:39:09.84\00:39:13.15
when I give myself
over to Jesus Christ,
00:39:13.18\00:39:15.45
I become a new creation.
00:39:15.48\00:39:17.22
Let's say that you find
that, that in your life,
00:39:17.25\00:39:20.19
you've
participated in being a glutton,
00:39:20.22\00:39:23.86
and you're
convicted by a health message,
00:39:23.89\00:39:27.60
and you began to eat right,
00:39:27.66\00:39:30.17
and you shed
all kinds of pounds,
00:39:30.20\00:39:32.40
and pretty soon, you know,
00:39:32.43\00:39:33.77
you find that
you're a fit person,
00:39:33.84\00:39:36.10
do you now
identify as a fat Christian?
00:39:36.14\00:39:40.08
You know, or a non
practicing fat Christian?
00:39:40.11\00:39:44.25
You know, it doesn't make sense.
00:39:44.28\00:39:45.95
So, all right, so,
and some were like,
00:39:45.98\00:39:47.98
"Oh, well, that's not,
00:39:48.02\00:39:49.35
you know, that's
not quite enough.
00:39:49.38\00:39:50.72
I don't know, you know,
00:39:50.79\00:39:52.12
I still think
you're still a gay."
00:39:52.15\00:39:53.49
"Okay, so let's go to Paul
who was on the way to Damascus,
00:39:53.52\00:39:57.53
and God said, 'Stop,
00:39:57.56\00:39:59.46
stop being in the
support of killing of Christians
00:39:59.49\00:40:02.20
and become a Christian.'
00:40:02.23\00:40:03.77
And he agrees
and he goes forward,
00:40:03.83\00:40:05.63
but the ministry
that God gave him,
00:40:05.67\00:40:07.20
does he identify
00:40:07.24\00:40:08.97
as a
Christian-killing Christian?"
00:40:09.00\00:40:11.11
You know, he doesn't.
It doesn't make any sense.
00:40:11.14\00:40:13.58
So we throw out all
of these analogies today,
00:40:13.64\00:40:16.44
of which any one thinks
00:40:16.48\00:40:18.08
it's absolutely
ridiculous to identify
00:40:18.11\00:40:20.22
except for when we get to gay,
00:40:20.28\00:40:23.85
there are so many people
00:40:23.89\00:40:25.92
in and outside of
Christianity today,
00:40:25.95\00:40:28.66
who still wanna say,
"You're a gay, no matter what,"
00:40:28.69\00:40:31.49
which kind of brings
us back to the great thing
00:40:31.53\00:40:35.40
that Bill Wilson
did for alcoholics
00:40:35.43\00:40:37.73
in helping them find sobriety.
00:40:37.77\00:40:40.07
But he did something
that the Bible doesn't do.
00:40:40.10\00:40:43.54
And he hung an albatross
around their neck saying that,
00:40:43.57\00:40:46.81
"Every time you
come into a meeting,
00:40:46.84\00:40:48.81
you still
identify as an alcoholic,
00:40:48.84\00:40:50.88
even if you haven't
drank for 40 years."
00:40:50.91\00:40:53.58
But if you come to the foot
of the cross of Jesus Christ,
00:40:53.65\00:40:57.55
does He say,
"My dear alcoholic,"
00:40:57.59\00:41:01.19
or does He say to you,
00:41:01.22\00:41:03.26
"My dear child, my
new believer in Christ,
00:41:03.29\00:41:06.56
my new creation in Jesus today."
00:41:06.59\00:41:11.40
You have something in Jesus
that the world can't give you.
00:41:11.43\00:41:15.17
And so your focus...
00:41:15.20\00:41:16.54
Our focus today is
not in that the fact
00:41:16.57\00:41:20.44
that I'm still
maybe tempted today
00:41:20.48\00:41:22.68
and I have to
identify by those temptations.
00:41:22.71\00:41:25.41
But what am I doing
with the temptation?
00:41:25.45\00:41:27.98
Am I
surrendering to Jesus Christ?
00:41:28.02\00:41:30.55
Or am I walking forward
00:41:30.59\00:41:32.15
as a new
creature in Jesus Christ?
00:41:32.19\00:41:34.29
A good response to that,
00:41:34.32\00:41:35.72
when somebody says
that you're still a gay,
00:41:35.76\00:41:38.33
you'll be like,
"Oh, so you believe that
00:41:38.36\00:41:39.83
God can't give
you the victory, huh?"
00:41:39.86\00:41:42.56
Exactly. You're
making God in a box.
00:41:42.60\00:41:44.73
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:44.77\00:41:47.10
Danielle, if
someone is struggling
00:41:47.17\00:41:48.90
with same-sex attraction,
00:41:48.94\00:41:50.27
how can they get
control over their thoughts?
00:41:50.34\00:41:53.17
Well, I think
that's the perfect place
00:41:53.21\00:41:55.14
to start really
is with the thoughts
00:41:55.18\00:41:57.01
because our
thoughts drive our actions,
00:41:57.08\00:42:00.75
and our actions form our habits,
00:42:00.82\00:42:02.45
and that's really
00:42:02.48\00:42:04.69
where the battle
begins for all of us,
00:42:04.72\00:42:07.46
it's with our thoughts.
00:42:07.49\00:42:08.82
And so I think that's the place
that all of us need to begin
00:42:08.86\00:42:11.86
if we want to
establish ourselves in victory
00:42:11.89\00:42:14.20
and to have a new set of habits
and a new character in life.
00:42:14.20\00:42:20.70
I think the most
important thing for us to do
00:42:20.74\00:42:22.90
when it comes to our
thoughts is to recognize that
00:42:22.94\00:42:25.44
if there's any thought
that enters into our mind
00:42:25.47\00:42:27.54
that's not in harmony
with the expressed will of God,
00:42:27.58\00:42:30.41
we can be sure that
that thought was encouraged
00:42:30.45\00:42:33.78
or cultivated from
the enemy of souls, right?
00:42:33.82\00:42:36.65
If it didn't come from the Lord,
00:42:36.69\00:42:38.39
then it must
have been encouraged
00:42:38.42\00:42:39.75
from some other source.
00:42:39.79\00:42:41.52
And so at that point,
00:42:41.56\00:42:44.39
we can recognize that
this is coming from the enemy
00:42:44.43\00:42:48.26
and therefore, we
don't have to accept it
00:42:48.30\00:42:50.63
as our own thought.
00:42:50.70\00:42:52.03
A lot of the times,
the enemy will step in
00:42:52.07\00:42:54.24
and he will present
ideas or temptations to us
00:42:54.27\00:42:58.24
in first person so that we think
00:42:58.27\00:43:00.18
that we're
thinking in this direction.
00:43:00.21\00:43:01.61
We think that this is who we are
00:43:01.64\00:43:03.04
because it keeps
coming into our minds,
00:43:03.08\00:43:06.08
but when we acknowledge the fact
00:43:06.11\00:43:07.82
that we don't have to
own this thought as our own,
00:43:07.85\00:43:10.29
we can say, "No, this is
not from God, this is not mine.
00:43:10.32\00:43:14.29
This is from the enemy.
00:43:14.32\00:43:15.66
And I'm going to
reject this thought.
00:43:15.69\00:43:17.89
And I'm not gonna
allow my thoughts to travel
00:43:17.93\00:43:20.96
across in these
directions anymore.
00:43:21.00\00:43:23.87
Instead, I'm gonna
turn away from that thought
00:43:23.93\00:43:26.57
and I'm gonna
place my attention,
00:43:26.60\00:43:29.04
my mental attention, and focus
00:43:29.07\00:43:30.87
on what God says
about this thing."
00:43:30.91\00:43:34.31
You know, if the
enemy is trying to tell me
00:43:34.34\00:43:38.11
that I'm gay and that I have
to give into these temptations
00:43:38.15\00:43:41.08
or that this is just who I am,
00:43:41.12\00:43:43.28
I can put my mind
back on these promises
00:43:43.35\00:43:45.42
that my brothers
have been sharing with us
00:43:45.45\00:43:47.79
or my favorite
is Philippians 1:6,
00:43:47.82\00:43:50.23
that says, "I can be
confident in the very fact
00:43:50.29\00:43:53.40
that if God has
began a work in me,
00:43:53.46\00:43:55.26
He will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ,
00:43:55.30\00:43:57.93
until the character of His
Son is formed within my heart
00:43:57.97\00:44:01.90
and until Christ
comes to receive me."
00:44:01.94\00:44:03.81
And so that's where
I can place my focus,
00:44:03.84\00:44:06.61
that's where I
can place my trust.
00:44:06.68\00:44:08.28
And so we have
to practice the art,
00:44:08.31\00:44:11.28
it really does
require attention and focus.
00:44:11.31\00:44:14.95
We have to become mindful of
where our thoughts are running.
00:44:14.98\00:44:17.79
And we have to turn
away from those temptations,
00:44:17.82\00:44:20.16
turn away from the lies,
00:44:20.19\00:44:22.02
and focus our mind
on the truths of God.
00:44:22.06\00:44:25.56
And the more that we do that,
the more we become like Christ
00:44:25.59\00:44:28.90
because as we behold,
we become changed, right?
00:44:28.93\00:44:32.40
So instead of just
allowing my thoughts to continue
00:44:32.43\00:44:34.84
in the negative direction,
00:44:34.87\00:44:36.60
I can place my mind on
Christ and in doing that,
00:44:36.67\00:44:39.94
God will work in my character
00:44:39.97\00:44:41.84
and it will become
more natural for me
00:44:41.88\00:44:43.71
to turn to Him just
like the flower turns
00:44:43.75\00:44:45.45
towards the sun.
00:44:45.48\00:44:46.82
You are preaching.
You better go, girl.
00:44:46.88\00:44:50.39
Preaching. Amen.
00:44:50.45\00:44:51.79
I love it. I love it.
00:44:51.82\00:44:53.62
Yeah, it's so important
that we yield the will.
00:44:53.66\00:44:58.79
The will is a
very powerful thing.
00:44:58.83\00:45:01.50
We can either kind of
be reactive or proactive.
00:45:01.53\00:45:06.77
And if we are proactive
00:45:06.84\00:45:08.60
and develop
spiritual disciplines,
00:45:08.64\00:45:10.81
you know, and know that,
00:45:10.84\00:45:13.01
"Okay, I have got
to talk to the Lord.
00:45:13.04\00:45:15.81
I have got to
because if I don't,
00:45:15.84\00:45:17.68
I will sink."
00:45:17.71\00:45:19.05
It's like the
guest on another program
00:45:19.08\00:45:22.72
that we did said,
00:45:22.75\00:45:24.09
"It's just like air,
00:45:24.12\00:45:25.69
if you're
drowning, you need air.
00:45:25.72\00:45:28.92
If you're
drowning in temptation,
00:45:28.96\00:45:31.33
you have to have Jesus.
00:45:31.36\00:45:33.19
Otherwise you're
just gonna sink."
00:45:33.23\00:45:35.46
And it really makes sense.
00:45:35.50\00:45:37.90
We have to give our will to Him.
00:45:37.93\00:45:40.74
So I loved your explanation
for that. It's beautiful.
00:45:40.80\00:45:45.24
Ron, how do, as a Christian,
00:45:45.27\00:45:50.11
how do I know if
somebody who is gay
00:45:50.15\00:45:53.52
or it's that they used to be gay
00:45:53.58\00:45:55.68
and now they're converted?
00:45:55.72\00:45:57.05
How do you know
if they're converted?
00:45:57.09\00:46:00.19
You know, the word of God says,
00:46:00.22\00:46:01.72
"By their fruits,
ye shall know them."
00:46:01.76\00:46:05.03
And I know there
are a lot of people
00:46:05.06\00:46:06.39
that come to
summon our group saying,
00:46:06.43\00:46:09.80
"Well, when are
you getting married?
00:46:09.83\00:46:12.87
If you get married, then
we'll know you're cured."
00:46:12.90\00:46:16.37
It's a total misunderstanding
of what conversion is.
00:46:16.40\00:46:21.44
And one thing we need to,
not be private investigators.
00:46:21.48\00:46:26.41
If a person is
coming into the faith,
00:46:26.45\00:46:29.32
and they are
excited about the Lord,
00:46:29.35\00:46:30.99
and they are
turning over new leaf,
00:46:31.02\00:46:32.85
and they are renouncing sin,
00:46:32.89\00:46:34.99
and even acknowledging
what their sin was,
00:46:35.02\00:46:38.66
we need to accept that.
00:46:38.69\00:46:40.70
Now if a person
comes into the faith
00:46:40.73\00:46:43.33
or into the church,
00:46:43.37\00:46:44.97
and then they start
manifesting defense of sin,
00:46:45.00\00:46:50.27
or an agenda, or
they're in open sin,
00:46:50.31\00:46:55.58
then we have a problem.
00:46:55.61\00:46:57.91
If they are
confronted because we are to,
00:46:57.95\00:47:00.48
if someone is dealing,
is involved in open sin,
00:47:00.55\00:47:03.82
they are to be approached,
it's a redemptive process.
00:47:03.85\00:47:08.29
If that person is
defending the open sin,
00:47:08.32\00:47:11.99
that's a sign of
not being converted.
00:47:12.03\00:47:16.50
And if a person
is acknowledging that
00:47:16.53\00:47:20.04
they're struggling with sin,
and struggling with temptation,
00:47:20.07\00:47:24.37
that's a good sign
because, of course,
00:47:24.41\00:47:27.71
there are three
texts of scripture
00:47:27.74\00:47:29.44
that really were
pivotal in my experience.
00:47:29.48\00:47:33.31
The one about Jesus in Hebrews 4
00:47:33.35\00:47:35.45
that said He was tempted
in all points like it's me,
00:47:35.48\00:47:39.35
yet without sin.
00:47:39.39\00:47:40.99
I have heard some people say,
00:47:41.02\00:47:42.39
"Surely you don't mean Jesus
was tempted like that, do you?"
00:47:42.42\00:47:47.00
And I said,
"Well, how do you think
00:47:47.03\00:47:48.33
He was tempted, like you?"
00:47:48.36\00:47:50.23
You know.
00:47:50.27\00:47:52.57
He was tempted like me.
00:47:52.60\00:47:54.00
Don't take that
text away from me
00:47:54.04\00:47:56.97
but Jesus was
tempted in all points,
00:47:57.01\00:47:59.01
so it's not a sin to be tempted.
00:47:59.04\00:48:01.31
Otherwise, Jesus might have
been the chiefest of sinners,
00:48:01.34\00:48:04.61
not the Apostle
Paul or Ron Woolsey.
00:48:04.65\00:48:06.85
And then there's
Hebrews 2 that says
00:48:06.88\00:48:08.98
that Jesus
suffered being tempted.
00:48:09.02\00:48:13.99
He struggled.
00:48:14.02\00:48:15.36
Well, struggle is
something that makes you strong.
00:48:15.39\00:48:18.39
It's okay to
struggle with temptation.
00:48:18.43\00:48:21.56
It's the giving
in, that's the problem.
00:48:21.60\00:48:24.40
It's the giving
up, that's the problem.
00:48:24.43\00:48:27.24
And Jesus resisted, Hebrews 12,
00:48:27.27\00:48:29.40
He resisted under
blood striving against sin.
00:48:29.44\00:48:32.71
And so, if we find
someone who is struggling
00:48:32.74\00:48:35.54
with temptation,
and struggling with sin,
00:48:35.58\00:48:38.75
that's healthy
because they're resisting.
00:48:38.78\00:48:43.39
And we need to help
them in that resistance,
00:48:43.42\00:48:45.39
help them know how to
submit to God on a daily basis,
00:48:45.42\00:48:49.72
then resist the
devil, and he will flee.
00:48:49.76\00:48:52.06
Amen.
00:48:52.09\00:48:53.43
But a sure sign of
someone not being converted is
00:48:53.50\00:48:56.83
when they are
trying to get the church
00:48:56.87\00:48:59.43
to change its position about sin
00:48:59.47\00:49:02.20
rather than the
sinner changing his behavior.
00:49:02.24\00:49:05.11
And so we can, I mean,
00:49:05.14\00:49:08.14
we are supposed to be
able to discern these things
00:49:08.18\00:49:11.75
that we should not
be private investigators
00:49:11.78\00:49:13.88
and try to snoop out someone
00:49:13.95\00:49:16.12
who is coming in
from a life of a practice
00:49:16.15\00:49:21.22
that we don't understand,
00:49:21.26\00:49:22.59
or we think is really repulsive,
00:49:22.62\00:49:24.16
or whatever.
00:49:24.19\00:49:25.83
Give them the rain
00:49:25.86\00:49:27.76
that they need to
bring forth the fruit
00:49:27.83\00:49:30.47
that they need
to, for repentance,
00:49:30.50\00:49:33.44
and to demonstrate
that fruit of conversion.
00:49:33.47\00:49:36.64
It's good. It's good.
00:49:36.71\00:49:39.24
Mike, my pastor is gay affirming
00:49:39.27\00:49:42.21
and I don't want
to approve of sin.
00:49:42.24\00:49:45.15
How can I be an
example of Christ's love
00:49:45.18\00:49:47.88
and not accept gay monogamy
00:49:47.92\00:49:50.09
without being
perceived as a bigot?
00:49:50.12\00:49:52.52
Right, it's interesting
that Ron's question was
00:49:52.55\00:49:55.49
before my question
00:49:55.52\00:49:57.13
because that really is what
we're finding wherever we go
00:49:57.16\00:49:59.63
and present is that
you have one or the other.
00:49:59.66\00:50:02.50
You have this extremely
critical view of homosexuality
00:50:02.53\00:50:07.40
that it's disgusting
00:50:07.44\00:50:08.90
and we're not
gonna talk about it,
00:50:08.94\00:50:10.27
we're not gonna address it,
or we're just gonna judge it.
00:50:10.31\00:50:13.01
And then you have completely
the other side of making it,
00:50:13.04\00:50:16.11
well, there's
nothing wrong with it.
00:50:16.14\00:50:17.51
And, you know, Jesus loves
and we're told in the Bible
00:50:17.55\00:50:20.28
that we're
supposed to love everybody
00:50:20.32\00:50:22.22
and so, you know, we have this,
these extreme on both sides.
00:50:22.25\00:50:26.82
And that's really
what we see a lot.
00:50:26.86\00:50:29.32
I think about an example of
00:50:29.36\00:50:31.83
how can I especially
in an environment where,
00:50:31.86\00:50:35.16
you know, even the
pastor is gay-affirming
00:50:35.20\00:50:36.90
and there is a
gentlemen that we met
00:50:36.93\00:50:38.63
that who was gay
for over 20 years,
00:50:38.67\00:50:41.50
and living in a
gay relationship,
00:50:41.54\00:50:43.84
and all of a sudden, he
started having these dreams
00:50:43.87\00:50:46.27
that it was the end of time
00:50:46.31\00:50:48.21
and the Lord was
telling him in his dreams,
00:50:48.24\00:50:49.61
"This is not
what I have for you".
00:50:49.64\00:50:51.78
And it started moving
him to the Bible again,
00:50:51.81\00:50:53.95
he started going to
church in Southern California,
00:50:53.98\00:50:56.82
to probably the number one
gay-affirming church there.
00:50:56.85\00:51:00.26
And as he's
going to church there,
00:51:00.29\00:51:01.96
he's studying for
himself and he called us up,
00:51:01.99\00:51:05.29
Coming Out Ministries,
and we've talked with him
00:51:05.33\00:51:08.36
and we've said,
"Come and check us out."
00:51:08.40\00:51:10.33
You know, he's actually come
and seen the movie for himself,
00:51:10.37\00:51:14.40
was moved to tears,
and realized that he had,
00:51:14.44\00:51:16.67
he said, at the end
of, seen the movie twice,
00:51:16.71\00:51:19.51
he said, "I realize now
that, that there are changes
00:51:19.54\00:51:21.71
that I need to make in my life."
00:51:21.74\00:51:23.08
So now he's back in
Southern California,
00:51:23.11\00:51:25.01
teaching Sabbath school
in this gay-affirming church
00:51:25.05\00:51:27.88
and he is walking with the Lord.
00:51:27.92\00:51:30.29
But he's not doing it in a way
00:51:30.35\00:51:32.09
that he's like
shouting from the front that
00:51:32.12\00:51:34.02
this is an
abomination and, you know,
00:51:34.06\00:51:36.06
leave this life, instead,
he's leading by an example.
00:51:36.09\00:51:39.29
He's showing that the
love of Jesus has a power,
00:51:39.33\00:51:42.56
you know, that changes people.
00:51:42.60\00:51:44.23
And I think
that, that's powerful.
00:51:44.27\00:51:46.03
If you have a church
that is gay-affirming,
00:51:46.07\00:51:49.64
I think that God
needs you in that church
00:51:49.67\00:51:51.51
to show what the right is
and to plead with the pastor
00:51:51.54\00:51:54.31
to study those, you
know, passages in the Bible
00:51:54.34\00:51:57.48
and still if, if
nothing has changed,
00:51:57.51\00:51:59.61
then God still needs
you to walk the middle line
00:51:59.65\00:52:02.32
to not be
hateful, to not be bigoted,
00:52:02.35\00:52:05.65
but to be loving
in your approach.
00:52:05.69\00:52:07.26
And I think that
people will see that,
00:52:07.29\00:52:09.39
you know, by your example.
00:52:09.42\00:52:10.99
I know of a story of a pastor
that when AIDS first came out,
00:52:11.03\00:52:14.46
it was so reprehensible
00:52:14.46\00:52:15.80
that nobody
wanted to touch the gays
00:52:15.83\00:52:17.73
but this pastor
himself would take blankets
00:52:17.77\00:52:20.00
to the AIDS clinic
00:52:20.04\00:52:21.37
and he would help
them to find jobs,
00:52:21.40\00:52:23.24
and he would bring them
food, and all of a sudden,
00:52:23.27\00:52:25.61
these gays started
coming into his churches.
00:52:25.64\00:52:28.31
And the people
started getting up
00:52:28.34\00:52:29.88
and they said,
"Pastor, the gays are coming."
00:52:29.91\00:52:32.05
And he said "Well,
let them have a seat
00:52:32.08\00:52:33.58
with all the others sinners."
00:52:33.62\00:52:34.95
And that was a
powerful example to me that,
00:52:34.98\00:52:37.99
even if you're in a
situation that's gay-affirming,
00:52:38.02\00:52:40.92
you be the example, you get up,
00:52:40.96\00:52:42.92
you show what true love looks
like to the LGBTQ community
00:52:42.96\00:52:48.10
and at the same time,
hold the truth of God.
00:52:48.13\00:52:50.70
And, again, we
really strongly believe that
00:52:50.73\00:52:53.80
that some of the gay-affirming
issues are correct.
00:52:53.87\00:52:57.67
That we, as a church,
have been incredibly unloving,
00:52:57.71\00:53:00.88
and judgmental,
00:53:00.91\00:53:02.24
and until the church
really changes that around
00:53:02.28\00:53:04.48
and shows what the
love of Christ looks like
00:53:04.51\00:53:06.35
in a redemptive and healing way,
00:53:06.38\00:53:08.78
then we really
can make a difference
00:53:08.82\00:53:11.05
in the world today.
00:53:11.09\00:53:12.42
And that's what
you guys do, isn't it?
00:53:12.45\00:53:13.96
You go to different
churches and organizations
00:53:13.99\00:53:16.83
and kind of share
00:53:16.86\00:53:18.33
how to minister to
the LGBT community,
00:53:18.36\00:53:22.70
just how they handle this,
00:53:22.73\00:53:25.60
the various situations
00:53:25.63\00:53:27.00
that are coming up
in these questions,
00:53:27.04\00:53:28.44
because people have questions
00:53:28.47\00:53:30.61
and it is such a
socially relevant topic
00:53:30.67\00:53:35.14
and so much has changed
within the past several years
00:53:35.18\00:53:38.25
that it's just,
it's really phenomenal.
00:53:38.28\00:53:41.68
Yvonne, when we
were speaking in Pasadena
00:53:41.72\00:53:44.15
and we've talked
about Pasadena before
00:53:44.19\00:53:46.19
and there was a gentleman
who came very reluctantly
00:53:46.22\00:53:49.06
and was very defensive,
00:53:49.09\00:53:50.63
you know, to Wayne and
I as we are presenting,
00:53:50.69\00:53:52.66
but he saw the movie
here at the Q&A afterwards.
00:53:52.69\00:53:55.26
And the man came
up to us afterwards,
00:53:55.30\00:53:57.23
he was sobbing,
the guy was sobbing,
00:53:57.30\00:53:59.37
and he broke
down and just told us
00:53:59.40\00:54:01.40
that he has been out of
the church for ten years,
00:54:01.44\00:54:04.01
identified as gay, and
he said, "Ten years ago,
00:54:04.04\00:54:06.98
I walked out of church knowing
that there was no place for me,
00:54:07.01\00:54:09.14
that, that I didn't belong here
and they made that very clear."
00:54:09.18\00:54:12.55
And he said, "But
after watching your movie,"
00:54:12.58\00:54:14.35
he said, "I identified
with absolutely every point
00:54:14.38\00:54:17.32
that each person
has in the movie."
00:54:17.39\00:54:19.19
And he said, "I realize now
00:54:19.22\00:54:21.06
that I do have a
place in the church.
00:54:21.09\00:54:23.19
I realize now I do belong."
00:54:23.22\00:54:25.23
And for him, this revelation
00:54:25.26\00:54:26.93
and these tears
were the breakthrough
00:54:27.00\00:54:28.50
that he'd been looking for
00:54:28.53\00:54:30.17
which was especially
affirming for all of us
00:54:30.23\00:54:32.57
because that's
what we were looking for
00:54:32.60\00:54:34.70
when we came
back into the church.
00:54:34.74\00:54:36.10
Amen.
00:54:36.14\00:54:37.47
Good, I just had that,
in Coming Out Ministries,
00:54:37.51\00:54:40.64
we do travel
around the churches,
00:54:40.68\00:54:42.74
around the world,
00:54:42.78\00:54:44.11
where we're traveling
quite a bit internationally
00:54:44.15\00:54:46.18
and our testimonies do,
00:54:46.21\00:54:48.92
we find bring a lot of
inspiration to the churches.
00:54:48.95\00:54:52.05
But we go much beyond that
00:54:52.09\00:54:53.96
because we feel it's
important to enlighten,
00:54:54.02\00:54:57.39
not just inspire, but
to enlighten, to educate.
00:54:57.43\00:55:00.13
Yes. Yes. And to equip.
00:55:00.16\00:55:01.63
And the Lord is
using our ministry now,
00:55:01.66\00:55:04.73
to provide, produce and
provide the very resources
00:55:04.77\00:55:09.24
that we wish we had
when we were going through
00:55:09.27\00:55:11.27
our struggle in our youth.
00:55:11.31\00:55:12.81
So that is a major
part of our ministry.
00:55:12.84\00:55:15.01
And then it's so
important because we need tools,
00:55:15.04\00:55:18.68
people need
tools, and it's not just,
00:55:18.71\00:55:20.85
one of the things I love
about Coming Out Ministries is,
00:55:20.92\00:55:23.39
it's not just
about the gay culture,
00:55:23.42\00:55:26.55
it's about sin, period.
00:55:26.59\00:55:30.03
People are so afraid
to call sin, sin nowadays,
00:55:30.06\00:55:33.09
you know, if it's
this, well, don't call it sin
00:55:33.13\00:55:36.43
'cause that's who I am.
00:55:36.46\00:55:38.43
No, sin is sin,
00:55:38.47\00:55:40.80
and but it doesn't mean
00:55:40.84\00:55:42.70
that we can't be
redeemed from sin.
00:55:42.74\00:55:45.04
So, I just love what you all do,
00:55:45.07\00:55:48.58
and I'm so proud of the fact
00:55:48.61\00:55:50.91
that you've put
yourselves out there
00:55:50.95\00:55:53.25
and you're just, you're
really working in the venue,
00:55:53.28\00:55:56.08
in the frontlines really.
00:55:56.12\00:55:57.99
We have one more question.
00:55:58.02\00:55:59.39
Jay, you wanna ask it? Sure.
00:55:59.42\00:56:01.52
This can go out
to anyone of you.
00:56:01.56\00:56:05.16
If a gay couple
comes to the church
00:56:05.19\00:56:07.13
and brings their children,
00:56:07.13\00:56:09.00
what should be our response
to them as a church family
00:56:09.03\00:56:11.77
and what about my
children, Sabbath school?
00:56:11.80\00:56:14.87
And you have like
30 seconds there, so...
00:56:14.90\00:56:18.64
Well, you know,
00:56:18.67\00:56:20.01
Jesus, the presence of
Jesus begins in the home
00:56:20.08\00:56:23.28
and what we teach
is the love of Jesus,
00:56:23.35\00:56:25.11
right, in our churches.
00:56:25.15\00:56:26.65
So if somebody is coming through
00:56:26.72\00:56:28.38
our church doors,
they might be hungry.
00:56:28.42\00:56:31.82
Let's hope that they are hungry.
00:56:31.85\00:56:33.66
And so we should be welcoming,
00:56:33.69\00:56:35.22
and we should be
welcoming in to, to anyone,
00:56:35.26\00:56:37.79
any sinner that's walking
through the church doors,
00:56:37.83\00:56:40.50
and so that the point is,
is that, in welcoming them,
00:56:40.53\00:56:44.13
we need not let the
discussion end there,
00:56:44.17\00:56:48.84
the education is that we
would reach out to people,
00:56:48.87\00:56:52.41
and help them,
listen to their stories,
00:56:52.44\00:56:54.58
find out about
them, love their children,
00:56:54.61\00:56:57.51
love one another, care for them,
00:56:57.55\00:56:59.78
but don't withhold Jesus.
00:56:59.81\00:57:04.12
Thank you.
00:57:04.15\00:57:05.49
Do you have a
closing thought, Jay?
00:57:05.52\00:57:07.79
Yeah, you know,
00:57:07.82\00:57:10.46
sometimes we really
ought to take a look
00:57:10.49\00:57:12.66
in the mirror instead
of looking at everyone else
00:57:12.69\00:57:16.20
and judging them for their sins.
00:57:16.23\00:57:19.40
You know, we
have sins of our own,
00:57:19.43\00:57:22.07
and sin is sin,
00:57:22.10\00:57:23.44
but God can give us
the victory over sin.
00:57:23.51\00:57:26.88
Christ came down
and took on human flesh
00:57:26.91\00:57:29.51
and paid the price for our sins,
00:57:29.54\00:57:31.48
so that we don't have to.
00:57:31.51\00:57:33.18
Make the choice
today, to serve Christ
00:57:33.21\00:57:36.05
before it's too late.
00:57:36.08\00:57:37.52
Thank you. Thank
you for joining me here.
00:57:37.59\00:57:39.75
I'm glad to be
here. It was great.
00:57:39.79\00:57:41.39
And thank you all so
much, please continue,
00:57:41.42\00:57:45.29
continue with the
fight, and the struggle,
00:57:45.33\00:57:47.20
I know it's hard.
00:57:47.23\00:57:48.53
I know that in several instances
00:57:48.56\00:57:50.73
you guys get cancelled,
turned away, or whatever,
00:57:50.77\00:57:55.84
but if you have an
organization, a school,
00:57:55.87\00:57:59.51
college, high school,
academy, or church, whatever,
00:57:59.54\00:58:03.98
please welcome
Coming Out Ministries.
00:58:04.01\00:58:06.61
And thank you for joining us.
00:58:06.65\00:58:08.25
Join us next time
'cause it just wouldn't be
00:58:08.28\00:58:09.95
the same without you.
00:58:09.98\00:58:11.59