The Dare to Dream network
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recognizes the
importance of sharing the tools
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to overcome
temptations in every arena.
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The program you're about to view
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contains sensitive content.
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Parental discretion is advised.
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Stay tuned to meet four brands
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plucked from the
fire of gay culture.
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My name is Yvonne Lewis.
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And I'm Jason Bradley,
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and you are
watching Urban Report.
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Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report.
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Our guests today
are Wayne Blakely,
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Mike Carducci,
Danielle Harrison,
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and Ron Woolsey from
Coming Out Ministries,
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and I've got my co-host, Jason.
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All right. Jason Bradley.
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Yay!
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And we are going
to be talking to this
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wonderful group of people
from Coming Out Ministries.
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Yay!
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You know, it's weird
that we're on this set
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'cause we're not,
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we don't usually do Urban Report
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from the Today set
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but because there
were so many people,
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we had to just
make an adjustment here
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and praise the
Lord, we can do that,
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so we hope that
you enjoy this and...
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We have some questions.
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First of all, you
guys are no stranger
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to Dare to Dream,
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because you have done
two seasons on Pure Choices.
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We've aired your
Journey Interrupted movie
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and we're gonna talk
more about that in a bit,
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and we've had
you on Urban Report.
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So you are no
strangers to Dare to Dream.
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But each time you do
something else, we just,
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we really wanna support you
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because you're
out on the frontlines
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and we know it.
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So tell us a bit, first of all,
about Coming Out Ministries.
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Wayne, what is
Coming Out Ministries
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and why is it important?
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Why is your message important?
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Well, you know, for many years,
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in church environments,
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we didn't talk about the
issue of homosexuality, so,
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so many of us grew up
with same-sex attraction
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with no tools, no real support.
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We identified homosexuality
in God's word as sin,
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but we just didn't,
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we didn't provide
anybody with any hope.
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So as a result of that,
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many of the
church doors flew open
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to all the
same-sex attracted people
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that were
running out and saying,
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"You know, I hear that
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there's a gay
community out there.
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They look like
they care about me."
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And so we lost
our focus on Jesus
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and the focus became on
our fleshly desires and,
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you know, everybody
suffers from something
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but because we
weren't talking about this,
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and this happens
often with other things,
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there are people that have
been ostracized from the church
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that have sexual sin,
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that we kind of
refuse to talk about.
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And now the pendulum has
swung the other direction.
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But, you know,
God didn't forget us,
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and He knows everybody's heart,
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and I think He saw
that in each of our hearts
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we would respond to Him,
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and we're from
totally different places
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in the United States and, yeah,
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God came and got us and then,
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put us together by
divine appointment,
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helped us recognize
that there was no voice
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in church environment,
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that there were
many people out there
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that are aching,
that are hurting,
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that desperately
want to be loved,
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and they want Jesus
in their life as well,
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but they don't know how
to bring the two together.
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And God revealed Himself to us
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and we are very much
standing on God's word
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and want people to realize that
they can take God at His word.
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And so, Coming Out
Ministries, 5.5 years ago,
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developed and formed
on I Peter 2:9 that says,
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"He brought us out of darkness
into His marvelous light."
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Amen.
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That's true.
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You have anything to add, Mike?
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No, that was pretty fantastic.
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One other things that I think
is really remarkable is like
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Wayne was saying that,
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not only do we come from
all across the United States
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but each one of us
have such a diverse story
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and, really,
that really makes up
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the whole picture of
redemption through Christ.
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And you featured that
in Journey Interrupted
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which is just
an incredible film.
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And I'd like to
show the trailer from it
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because I'd like
for our viewers to see,
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'cause they're
gonna be watching,
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you know, on Dare to Dream.
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We are going to air
it, we've aired it already
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and we're going to
continue to air it periodically,
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and so I'd like for them
to kind of get a sense of
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what this film is about.
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So let's see it now.
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I would look in the mirror
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and I would punch
myself in the face,
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and I would scream at God,
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and I would yell at
Him and I would say,
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"Why, God, why?
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Why did you create a boy
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when I was
supposed to be a girl?"
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So I prayed and I said,
"I don't wanna live, Lord.
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Take me now."
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I just don't wanna go
through what's coming.
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I felt dirty.
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I felt...
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Well, I have been tainted.
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I thought,
"Okay, well, obviously,
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this is something that I
can't really tell anyone about."
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I'm crying in my bed at night
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because these
things are happening
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and, Jesus, I
can't hear Him anymore.
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I said, "How dare You?
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You say that I'm an abomination
when You made me this way,
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that's not fair.
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I didn't choose this thing,
I didn't want this thing."
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Why would I join a
religion that tells me that
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I'm just gonna die
for being who I am?
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Is this a different God
than I was acquainted with,
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when I was little?
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I finally decided to
just accept who I was,
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and give up.
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I believed that I was gay
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and that it didn't
match up with God's word,
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and I was like, "Oh, well,
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I don't know what
to do about that."
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I just kind of
pushed everybody aside,
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including my mom,
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I just felt like,
"Nobody else has been there,
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why would she?"
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I was desperate to
be secure in my sin.
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I did whatever I could.
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I was, I was...
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Tell me lies, tell me lies.
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Lie to me.
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I found myself on my knees
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at the end of my bed and I said,
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"God, I don't know
how you could forgive me."
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You still want me,
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'cause everybody
else rejected me,
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everybody else
turned their back on me,
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you wanna go too now?
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It's as though the devil
was not going to let me go.
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And if he could not entice
me, he would turn to violence.
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It's time for us
to talk about this.
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It's time for us to offer help.
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If He is who I've
been reading that He is,
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it all makes sense.
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How like God, to show me that
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when I really
started opening up myself
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and making myself
the most vulnerable
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I've ever been
in my entire life,
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that what I get
instead was not rejection,
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but acceptance.
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I shed My blood for you,
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so that you can
claim this victory.
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It's freely yours.
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All you have to do is
give your heart to Me.
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Wow!
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What a great piece of work!
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We have really enjoyed
showing it on Dare to Dream,
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and as I said before,
we're going to continue to,
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because your
stories are so powerful.
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And we know that
you've been going around
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to different places
and people have questions,
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and so we want to ask
some of those questions today,
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that you can
help our viewers with
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because we know that
there are people all around
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who want to know these things.
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So, Jay, you wanna start?
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Why not? Okay.
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I'll start with the first one.
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Ron, this is for you.
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There are a lot of messages
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that are being circulated
in church culture today,
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regarding the LGBT issue,
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what is the message
of Coming Out Ministries?
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So much of what is
taught and what is heard today
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comes from a
worldly perspective,
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from political correctness,
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from conventional
thinking, from human reasoning,
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but the foundation of
our message is really found
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in the word of God.
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I John 4:8 tells
us that God is love
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and then we read
in the II Timothy 3,
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that all scripture is
given by inspiration of God,
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this God of love, it is
profitable for doctrine,
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for reproof, for
correction, for instruction,
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in righteousness,
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that the Man of
God may be perfect,
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truly furnished
unto all good works.
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So we believe
that if God is love,
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then everything
that He admonishes us,
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His warnings, His reproof,
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His promises, His counsels,
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His judgments,
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everything comes from the heart
of a loving heavenly Father.
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And so we approach this
issue from the word of God
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and we accept what He
says about the LGBT issue,
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the gay issue,
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and our lives need to
measure up to His expectations.
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The word of God to us
is like an owner's manual.
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And we believe
that our Creator knows
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what's best for His created
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and our heavenly Father knows
what's best for the children
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that He loves so much and
so that is our perspective.
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Nice.
00:10:00.90\00:10:02.23
Yeah, I have heard
the Bible described as
00:10:02.26\00:10:03.70
"Basic Instructions
Before Leaving Earth."
00:10:03.73\00:10:06.94
An acronym, right?
00:10:06.97\00:10:08.30
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:08.34\00:10:09.80
Nice, nice.
00:10:09.84\00:10:11.17
Wayne, if God is love,
00:10:11.21\00:10:13.34
why would He be
opposed to two people
00:10:13.38\00:10:15.44
loving each other exclusively,
00:10:15.48\00:10:18.65
in monogamous gay relationship?
00:10:18.68\00:10:22.05
Why would He be opposed to that?
00:10:22.08\00:10:25.29
Well, we have a little bit
of a misperception about love.
00:10:25.32\00:10:31.99
I think when we
look to God's pure love,
00:10:32.03\00:10:34.73
sometimes we don't study it,
00:10:34.76\00:10:38.73
to pick up the full
meaning of that love.
00:10:38.77\00:10:41.97
What happens is that we
get so focused on ourselves,
00:10:42.00\00:10:45.47
we begin to interpret
our desires to be loved,
00:10:45.51\00:10:50.48
and so we don't have
a perfect reflection of
00:10:50.51\00:10:53.55
what God's love really is.
00:10:53.58\00:10:55.15
I have...
00:10:55.18\00:10:56.52
For me, personally, I
have to look to God's word
00:10:56.55\00:10:59.35
to see what brings
honor and glory to Him.
00:10:59.39\00:11:02.52
And as I studied
through God's word
00:11:02.56\00:11:04.76
in both the Old
Testament and the New Testament,
00:11:04.79\00:11:07.96
He upholds marriage as being
that between a man and a woman,
00:11:08.00\00:11:13.34
and there's not
a single occurrence
00:11:13.37\00:11:17.14
of same-sex
intimacy in God's word
00:11:17.17\00:11:20.38
that He would show that
He ordains and sanctifies.
00:11:20.41\00:11:24.85
That's a big clue
to me to know that
00:11:24.88\00:11:27.58
whether I'm on the right track
00:11:27.62\00:11:28.95
or whether maybe I
need to put my focus
00:11:28.98\00:11:32.92
back on the word and see
00:11:32.95\00:11:34.29
what I can
learn from God's word.
00:11:34.32\00:11:35.72
If we don't understand
the plan of salvation,
00:11:35.76\00:11:39.29
if we don't understand
what happened in heaven,
00:11:39.33\00:11:42.66
what the great controversy is,
00:11:42.70\00:11:44.77
that's when our vision
starts getting distorted.
00:11:44.80\00:11:49.70
And so looking to Jesus,
00:11:49.74\00:11:51.07
we started looking at self
and what my desires are and,
00:11:51.11\00:11:54.21
you know, as I shared, you know,
00:11:54.24\00:11:55.58
even in the film,
00:11:55.61\00:11:57.15
was that there weren't
people helping us along the way.
00:11:57.18\00:12:00.12
We weren't studying,
we weren't sitting down
00:12:00.15\00:12:03.18
and finding out
00:12:03.22\00:12:05.32
what is God really asking of me.
00:12:05.35\00:12:07.16
And even in the New Testament,
00:12:07.19\00:12:08.66
we see that God is
calling us to self-denial.
00:12:08.69\00:12:11.83
Why would we deny
something of ourselves
00:12:11.86\00:12:14.46
that is good for us?
00:12:14.50\00:12:16.06
You know, we wouldn't.
00:12:16.10\00:12:17.50
So I have to look and
see what God is calling me to
00:12:17.53\00:12:20.57
and outside of the
perfect plan of marriage
00:12:20.60\00:12:25.57
between one man and one woman,
00:12:25.61\00:12:28.34
God doesn't give
me permission to go
00:12:28.38\00:12:30.91
and to do as my flesh desires.
00:12:30.95\00:12:33.62
So I need to fall in
love with Jesus first,
00:12:33.65\00:12:37.55
before I would recognize that
00:12:37.59\00:12:39.72
I would give
something up for Him.
00:12:39.75\00:12:42.02
And so it's hard, you know,
00:12:42.06\00:12:44.16
to anyone who's
watching or listening to this,
00:12:44.19\00:12:49.43
it's hard to give up something
that comes so natural to you,
00:12:49.46\00:12:53.44
but what is natural?
00:12:53.47\00:12:55.10
What's natural to
us is actually sin.
00:12:55.14\00:12:58.27
And we've come to
a point in life today
00:12:58.31\00:13:01.04
that we're listening to
the voices of the world,
00:13:01.08\00:13:03.18
the language of others,
00:13:03.21\00:13:04.88
campaigns out there that
says, "Follow your heart.
00:13:04.91\00:13:08.42
Listen to yours, you know,
00:13:08.45\00:13:09.78
what your soul
is saying to you."
00:13:09.82\00:13:11.95
But what I found that
I needed to listen to,
00:13:11.99\00:13:14.36
was what God is saying to me.
00:13:14.39\00:13:16.52
And so, marriage by definition,
it isn't the same-sex union,
00:13:16.56\00:13:21.80
and I don't see that
anywhere in God's word
00:13:21.83\00:13:24.83
that He does
show approval for this
00:13:24.87\00:13:26.74
and so it really isn't
representative of God's pure
00:13:26.77\00:13:30.77
or ultimate love for us.
00:13:30.81\00:13:33.38
That's a great answer.
00:13:33.41\00:13:34.74
Yeah, it is.
00:13:34.78\00:13:36.51
That's a great answer.
00:13:36.54\00:13:38.45
I was gonna say something,
00:13:38.48\00:13:39.81
but I had a
minor case of amnesia.
00:13:39.85\00:13:43.99
So we'll get
back to the questions.
00:13:44.02\00:13:46.45
You're so young.
00:13:46.49\00:13:49.36
All right,
Danielle, this is for you.
00:13:49.39\00:13:51.86
How can I, as a Christian,
00:13:51.89\00:13:53.23
minister to someone
who identifies as LGBTQ?
00:13:53.26\00:13:57.37
It's a great question
that we actually get a lot,
00:13:57.40\00:13:59.50
almost everywhere that we go,
00:13:59.53\00:14:01.34
and the beautiful
thing I think is that
00:14:01.37\00:14:03.20
we would minister to them
00:14:03.24\00:14:04.74
just like we would minister
to anyone else, you know.
00:14:04.77\00:14:07.58
Christ is very
effective in reaching the people
00:14:07.61\00:14:10.28
in the way that He
spent time with them,
00:14:10.31\00:14:13.42
you know, He
showed His sympathy,
00:14:13.45\00:14:15.15
He showed them by His
actions that He cared for them
00:14:15.18\00:14:18.19
and it was
through that action that
00:14:18.22\00:14:20.46
He showed that
He could be trusted
00:14:20.49\00:14:23.73
and that He had their
best interest in mind.
00:14:23.76\00:14:26.83
And it was through building
that kind of a confidence
00:14:26.86\00:14:29.73
between Him and the
people He was trying to reach,
00:14:29.76\00:14:32.63
that He was able, eventually,
to invite them to follow Him.
00:14:32.67\00:14:36.24
And I think that that's
what we have to remember
00:14:36.27\00:14:38.41
that we have to do.
00:14:38.44\00:14:39.77
No one is gonna be
interested in understanding
00:14:39.81\00:14:43.04
our ideas of life, and
philosophy, and morals,
00:14:43.08\00:14:47.42
if they don't
really believe that
00:14:47.45\00:14:49.15
we have their
best interests in mind.
00:14:49.18\00:14:51.35
And so the best
thing that we can do is
00:14:51.39\00:14:53.09
just to step forward
00:14:53.12\00:14:55.12
and to build a
friendship with them.
00:14:55.16\00:14:56.99
Build that kind
of trust with them.
00:14:57.03\00:14:58.79
And so often with any person
00:14:58.83\00:15:00.83
who lives
differently than we do,
00:15:00.86\00:15:03.00
it's easy for us to
focus on the differences
00:15:03.03\00:15:05.33
that we have from them
and feel that the walls go up
00:15:05.37\00:15:09.00
because of those differences
00:15:09.04\00:15:10.71
and our focus
on the differences.
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.17
But if we focus on the
commonalities that we have,
00:15:12.21\00:15:15.68
we can find that
those are the bridges
00:15:15.71\00:15:17.65
into the person's heart
00:15:17.68\00:15:19.01
and we can connect
through those simple things,
00:15:19.05\00:15:21.32
and then just build like I said,
00:15:21.35\00:15:24.42
that confidence
and that friendship.
00:15:24.45\00:15:26.45
And it's through
the friendship that,
00:15:26.49\00:15:27.82
eventually,
they'll see something
00:15:27.86\00:15:29.19
different in our lives.
00:15:29.22\00:15:31.19
They'll see something
that they want to have,
00:15:31.23\00:15:33.50
the joy, and the peace,
00:15:33.53\00:15:34.96
and the
gentleness, and the meekness,
00:15:35.00\00:15:36.56
the fruits of the Spirit,
00:15:36.60\00:15:38.43
and it will be those
things that will draw them
00:15:38.47\00:15:40.94
into having a
desire to know more about
00:15:40.97\00:15:42.87
what's working for us.
00:15:42.90\00:15:44.37
At least, that's
what happened for me
00:15:44.41\00:15:46.44
and what drew me
into having a desire
00:15:46.47\00:15:48.58
to learn more about
Christ from my Christian friends
00:15:48.61\00:15:51.68
and so I think that that's
what we have to do with anyone
00:15:51.71\00:15:55.08
and especially with people
00:15:55.12\00:15:56.45
who are struggling
with same-sex attraction,
00:15:56.48\00:15:58.62
gender confusion.
00:15:58.65\00:16:00.22
And all along
the way, of course,
00:16:00.26\00:16:01.79
we can't move one step
forward without prayer.
00:16:01.82\00:16:05.46
And that is something
that each one of us acknowledge
00:16:05.49\00:16:08.56
in our own personal
experiences was that,
00:16:08.60\00:16:10.90
it was the prayers of the people
00:16:10.93\00:16:12.77
that we loved,
00:16:12.80\00:16:14.14
that really allowed
angels to come into our lives,
00:16:14.17\00:16:16.37
allowed the Holy
Spirit to come into our lives
00:16:16.40\00:16:18.14
when we needed it the most.
00:16:18.17\00:16:19.97
And sometimes we look at
prayer as our last result,
00:16:20.01\00:16:24.31
but really it's
our first defense.
00:16:24.35\00:16:26.28
We need to be consistently
00:16:26.31\00:16:27.82
and intentionally
praying for the people
00:16:27.85\00:16:29.68
that we want to minister to
00:16:29.72\00:16:31.55
and that's the only way
that we're gonna be effective.
00:16:31.59\00:16:33.72
Absolutely.
00:16:33.76\00:16:35.46
It came back to me.
00:16:35.49\00:16:36.83
Okay, so...
00:16:36.86\00:16:39.46
What I was gonna say was,
when you were talking, Wayne,
00:16:39.49\00:16:43.23
you know, we
search for all the answers
00:16:43.26\00:16:45.37
in all the wrong
places when really
00:16:45.40\00:16:47.74
the right answers are contained
in the word of God, you know,
00:16:47.77\00:16:51.01
that's the book of life
00:16:51.04\00:16:52.37
and what the world
has for us is death,
00:16:52.41\00:16:54.64
you know, so we search the world
00:16:54.68\00:16:57.98
and all these
different perspectives
00:16:58.01\00:17:00.35
to fill a void that
only Christ can fill.
00:17:00.38\00:17:03.52
And what you
were saying, Danielle,
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.19
is excellent because without
00:17:05.22\00:17:08.79
kind of
cultivating a relationship,
00:17:08.82\00:17:10.93
without getting to know people,
00:17:10.96\00:17:12.99
like you don't
just introduce them to,
00:17:13.03\00:17:15.33
okay, no, you can't eat pork.
00:17:15.36\00:17:17.37
No, you can't do this.
00:17:17.40\00:17:19.03
No, you can't do...
00:17:19.07\00:17:20.40
Why?
00:17:20.44\00:17:21.84
You know, you have
to know about Christ
00:17:21.87\00:17:24.67
and what's that He wants.
00:17:24.71\00:17:26.94
What He wants
for you is the best.
00:17:26.98\00:17:29.28
He wants to prolong your life.
00:17:29.31\00:17:30.65
He wants you to be saved.
00:17:30.68\00:17:32.01
He wants to save you.
00:17:32.05\00:17:33.38
I like to elaborate
just a little bit in that,
00:17:33.42\00:17:37.22
you know, doesn't...
00:17:37.25\00:17:38.99
Is God trustworthy?
00:17:39.02\00:17:41.12
You know, that's the first thing
00:17:41.16\00:17:42.49
that has to come
to any of our mind.
00:17:42.52\00:17:43.86
Can I trust God?
00:17:43.89\00:17:45.23
Because if I don't develop that,
00:17:45.26\00:17:47.00
then I'm not going to
want to abide by His Word.
00:17:47.03\00:17:50.37
I have to go
back to the beginning
00:17:50.40\00:17:52.33
and ask myself,
was the forbidden...
00:17:52.37\00:17:55.04
Was the fruit on
the forbidden tree,
00:17:55.07\00:17:57.01
was it delicious?
00:17:57.04\00:17:58.37
Was it good?
00:17:58.41\00:17:59.74
Why did God not want
Adam and Eve to partake of it?
00:17:59.77\00:18:03.14
You know, and really what
it boils down to is His Word
00:18:03.18\00:18:07.08
because He asked them not to.
00:18:07.12\00:18:09.12
And so something may feel
good, it may seem right to us,
00:18:09.15\00:18:13.76
but God knows better
00:18:13.79\00:18:16.19
and He's trying to
protect us, you know,
00:18:16.22\00:18:17.99
His law is law,
00:18:18.03\00:18:19.73
and that's the part about
the friendship evangelism,
00:18:19.76\00:18:23.16
by introducing someone to Jesus,
00:18:23.20\00:18:26.94
and helping them see
that they can trust Him,
00:18:26.97\00:18:30.17
and fall in love with Him,
00:18:30.21\00:18:31.64
then His principles become
00:18:31.67\00:18:33.88
something that I can
practically apply to my life.
00:18:33.91\00:18:36.44
Absolutely.
00:18:36.48\00:18:37.81
That's where you start.
00:18:37.85\00:18:39.55
You start by, you know,
00:18:39.58\00:18:41.95
connecting with people and
you introduce them to Jesus
00:18:41.98\00:18:45.35
because
everything else after that,
00:18:45.39\00:18:47.89
if you go out of sequence,
it doesn't make any sense.
00:18:47.92\00:18:52.59
You just, you know,
00:18:52.63\00:18:53.96
you'll fall in a legalistic path
00:18:54.00\00:18:55.86
or whatever but if you
00:18:55.90\00:18:57.23
go down that path of
00:18:57.27\00:18:58.60
introducing them to Jesus first,
00:18:58.63\00:19:01.27
you know, that
means that everything else
00:19:01.30\00:19:04.01
then just falls
sequentially into place,
00:19:04.04\00:19:06.91
so that's really the key.
00:19:06.94\00:19:08.84
That's why it's
important to live Christianity
00:19:08.88\00:19:11.51
and not just really profess it.
00:19:11.55\00:19:13.28
You know, you can
say things all day
00:19:13.31\00:19:16.18
but someone needs a
coat, you have a coat.
00:19:16.22\00:19:19.29
I mean, you have an extra coat
00:19:19.32\00:19:21.12
or you have a
coat that they need
00:19:21.16\00:19:22.99
and you don't give it to them.
00:19:23.02\00:19:24.73
You'll be like,
"Oh, I'll pray for you."
00:19:24.76\00:19:26.09
You're right.
00:19:26.13\00:19:27.46
I'll pray for you,
00:19:27.50\00:19:28.83
but you're not meeting their
need at that time, you know.
00:19:28.86\00:19:32.17
Michael, how do
you respond to people
00:19:32.20\00:19:35.10
who quote the text that says,
00:19:35.14\00:19:37.81
text that appeared to be
definitive about homosexuality?
00:19:37.84\00:19:41.51
How do you deal
with people with that?
00:19:41.54\00:19:44.18
You know, I try to use
my own experience, you know,
00:19:44.21\00:19:46.98
with that question.
00:19:47.02\00:19:48.35
And, Jason, I believe that
00:19:48.38\00:19:50.45
you didn't forget the
statement you want to make.
00:19:50.49\00:19:52.69
I believe that the Lord
just held it back a little
00:19:52.72\00:19:54.69
because you talked
about how making the base
00:19:54.72\00:19:57.03
just the word of God.
00:19:57.06\00:19:58.39
I remember when I was
baptized and told my boyfriend,
00:19:58.43\00:20:01.26
"Now, here I am,
you know, an Adventist",
00:20:01.30\00:20:03.77
and he dragged me to
the Unitarian church,
00:20:03.80\00:20:06.70
to the gay church,
00:20:06.74\00:20:08.07
and we sat there with
the priest in the gay church
00:20:08.10\00:20:10.11
and she went through
all of the different texts
00:20:10.14\00:20:12.81
about
homosexuality in the Bible.
00:20:12.84\00:20:14.81
And as desperate as I was
to hold on to my boyfriend
00:20:14.84\00:20:18.18
and my identity,
00:20:18.21\00:20:19.85
even the Holy Spirit was
giving me this understanding
00:20:19.88\00:20:24.05
and every scripture
text that she was using,
00:20:24.09\00:20:27.52
it didn't even make
sense from my perspective,
00:20:27.56\00:20:30.23
and I wasn't a Bible, you
know, scholar and here she was,
00:20:30.26\00:20:33.60
and I remember
thinking to myself,
00:20:33.63\00:20:35.03
"Well, that's a
silly explanation."
00:20:35.06\00:20:36.90
You know, it's interesting
people talk about, you know,
00:20:36.93\00:20:39.17
show me a scripture text
that talks about, you know,
00:20:39.20\00:20:41.80
same-sex monogamy.
00:20:41.84\00:20:43.17
Well, there is one in Leviticus
00:20:43.20\00:20:44.67
and it says when a
man lies with a man,
00:20:44.71\00:20:47.48
a monogamous relationship,
00:20:47.51\00:20:49.04
that it's an
abomination, you know.
00:20:49.08\00:20:51.21
And so there we have a
very literal example of that,
00:20:51.25\00:20:54.95
and then, of course, you
can go to Romans chapter 1
00:20:54.98\00:20:57.89
where it talks about serving
00:20:57.92\00:21:00.52
the creature
rather than the Creator.
00:21:00.56\00:21:03.02
And then in Jude, it
talks about the sin of Sodom
00:21:03.06\00:21:06.16
and Gomorrah wasn't hospitality,
00:21:06.19\00:21:08.10
it was lust and lust wasn't
restricted to just same-sex,
00:21:08.13\00:21:12.23
behavior was
also lust in general,
00:21:12.27\00:21:14.77
and then, you know,
00:21:14.80\00:21:16.14
when I think about
those applications for me,
00:21:16.17\00:21:19.77
as I really started to study
the word of God for myself,
00:21:19.81\00:21:22.58
I realized that God
wasn't condemning the person
00:21:22.61\00:21:25.21
that had same-sex attraction,
00:21:25.25\00:21:26.92
He was condemning the behavior,
00:21:26.95\00:21:29.08
which for me was a
whole breakthrough,
00:21:29.12\00:21:31.29
it's like, thank you, God,
00:21:31.32\00:21:32.65
that I'm not guilty just
because I have these thoughts
00:21:32.69\00:21:35.12
because I believe that
God knows there's a reason
00:21:35.16\00:21:37.79
why you have those thoughts.
00:21:37.83\00:21:39.43
But as long as you're
not acting in that behavior
00:21:39.46\00:21:41.70
because those
behaviors separate You from me,
00:21:41.73\00:21:44.57
they cut you off from the things
00:21:44.60\00:21:46.77
that God wants to bless us with,
00:21:46.80\00:21:48.50
and so I started to
realize that there are reasons
00:21:48.54\00:21:50.97
for why I had those attractions.
00:21:51.01\00:21:52.97
But that God says,
"By not acting in them,
00:21:53.01\00:21:56.14
I can address them and I
can bring you into healing."
00:21:56.18\00:21:59.18
And that was
powerful for me, personally.
00:21:59.21\00:22:01.22
Feel like I'm so
glad you brought this out
00:22:01.25\00:22:03.15
because it's the act
that's the abomination,
00:22:03.18\00:22:06.89
not the person.
00:22:06.92\00:22:08.26
Yes.
00:22:08.29\00:22:09.62
And I think so often we
can get caught up, you know,
00:22:09.66\00:22:13.46
as a church and
saying, you know,
00:22:13.50\00:22:16.03
well, this is an abomination,
you're an abomination.
00:22:16.06\00:22:18.73
No, you, the one who's
in, who's caught up in that,
00:22:18.77\00:22:23.10
you're not the abomination,
the act is, and that's the key.
00:22:23.14\00:22:28.24
God loves you.
00:22:28.28\00:22:29.61
He loves you just as
you are. He loves you.
00:22:29.64\00:22:32.15
He's not gonna
keep you as you are.
00:22:32.18\00:22:34.05
You're not gonna stay as
you are once you turn to God
00:22:34.08\00:22:36.99
but He loves you
right where you are
00:22:37.02\00:22:39.59
and I think that's
what people need to know.
00:22:39.62\00:22:41.22
Yeah.
00:22:41.26\00:22:42.59
So the other part about,
00:22:42.62\00:22:43.96
if we accept the
word of God as the manual,
00:22:43.99\00:22:47.86
as you said, Jason,
then what's happening now is
00:22:47.90\00:22:50.33
we have this gay
affirming group in Christianity,
00:22:50.37\00:22:52.83
even in our own
denomination that are saying
00:22:52.87\00:22:55.20
that the words of
Moses and Paul are,
00:22:55.24\00:22:58.07
they don't apply anymore.
00:22:58.11\00:22:59.44
Archaic.
00:22:59.47\00:23:00.81
Yeah, that they're archaic
00:23:00.84\00:23:02.18
and so we should just
take them out of the Bible.
00:23:02.21\00:23:03.55
So, you know,
00:23:03.58\00:23:04.91
even when you look at
I Corinthians chapter 6,
00:23:04.95\00:23:07.18
that to all of us
was extremely powerful
00:23:07.22\00:23:10.55
because it says
in verse 11, it says,
00:23:10.59\00:23:12.42
"Such were some of you, "
00:23:12.45\00:23:14.32
and it wasn't talking
about just the homosexual,
00:23:14.36\00:23:16.42
which it does mention,
00:23:16.46\00:23:17.86
it was talking about adulterers,
00:23:17.89\00:23:20.20
or fornicators,
gossip, you know,
00:23:20.23\00:23:22.66
so all of those things in
verse 11 is really wrapped up
00:23:22.70\00:23:26.43
the promise that,
00:23:26.47\00:23:27.80
"Hey, I can give
you something beyond
00:23:27.84\00:23:29.44
what you've experienced now."
00:23:29.47\00:23:31.17
And for us, especially, for us,
00:23:31.21\00:23:34.28
we find that that's
a great promise that
00:23:34.31\00:23:36.81
we'd never heard before
even in Christian culture.
00:23:36.85\00:23:40.12
I'm glad that you said
that because, you know,
00:23:40.15\00:23:42.68
we have a tendency to put
different sins on pedestals.
00:23:42.72\00:23:45.65
Okay, come on.
00:23:45.69\00:23:48.12
Homosexual sin and
heterosexual sin is what?
00:23:48.16\00:23:51.63
Sin. You're right.
00:23:51.66\00:23:53.80
I call it what it is, you know.
00:23:53.83\00:23:55.60
If you're a
heterosexual and you sin,
00:23:55.63\00:23:57.50
you're gonna end up
in the same, you know,
00:23:57.53\00:24:00.37
it can get pretty hot, you know.
00:24:00.40\00:24:01.97
Right.
00:24:02.00\00:24:03.34
And if you are a
homosexual and you sin,
00:24:03.37\00:24:06.68
it can get pretty hot.
00:24:06.71\00:24:08.51
You know, a sin is sin.
00:24:08.54\00:24:10.88
There is a story in the Bible.
00:24:10.91\00:24:12.81
There was a lady,
and I forgot who it was,
00:24:12.85\00:24:17.29
but she was been
judged by a bunch of men.
00:24:17.32\00:24:20.52
She was an adulterer.
00:24:20.56\00:24:23.09
And she was being
judged by a bunch of men,
00:24:23.12\00:24:24.79
and they were
ready to stone her,
00:24:24.83\00:24:26.86
and I don't know what
it was about those times
00:24:26.90\00:24:30.30
but people were
so just, they would,
00:24:30.33\00:24:31.87
just seem to be ready
to stone people some times.
00:24:31.90\00:24:34.40
So, they were prepared to
stone this lady and Jesus said,
00:24:34.44\00:24:39.87
"He who's without sin,
let him cast the first stone,"
00:24:39.91\00:24:42.54
and He started writing
out in the sand people's sin.
00:24:42.58\00:24:45.58
Well, you can
imagine the crowd dispersed
00:24:45.61\00:24:47.82
very, very, very fast.
00:24:47.85\00:24:50.55
You know, people look and judge,
00:24:50.59\00:24:55.42
but sin is sin.
00:24:55.46\00:24:57.96
Sin is sin.
00:24:57.99\00:24:59.69
And the great
thing about Jesus is
00:24:59.73\00:25:03.40
He'll take you wherever you are
00:25:03.43\00:25:06.13
and He'll heal
those broken spots.
00:25:06.17\00:25:10.24
Amen.
00:25:10.27\00:25:11.61
He'll just heal
all of your brokenness
00:25:11.64\00:25:13.24
and that's what we all need.
00:25:13.27\00:25:15.88
We all need it
'cause we all have sin.
00:25:15.91\00:25:18.51
Yeah, there's this
cop out today though,
00:25:18.55\00:25:21.92
in Church
congregations, you know,
00:25:21.95\00:25:25.69
the way they wanna
look at homosexuality,
00:25:25.72\00:25:27.52
because it's kind of like
on the cutting edge these days,
00:25:27.56\00:25:31.09
is that while we're all sinners,
00:25:31.13\00:25:32.76
you know, yeah,
00:25:32.79\00:25:34.13
we all are and so we
should be helping each other.
00:25:34.16\00:25:36.40
James 5:16 says,
"Hey, let's come together.
00:25:36.43\00:25:39.20
Let's pray for one another.
00:25:39.23\00:25:40.64
Let's pray for the
healing that God promises.
00:25:40.67\00:25:43.41
We should be
able to come together
00:25:43.44\00:25:44.81
and lift each
other up in prayer.
00:25:44.84\00:25:46.44
Not leave
ourselves the way we are
00:25:46.47\00:25:49.08
but to let Jesus
bring about change
00:25:49.11\00:25:51.08
in every single
one of our lives."
00:25:51.11\00:25:52.45
Yeah, Christ
didn't alienate people.
00:25:52.48\00:25:54.38
That's right.
00:25:54.42\00:25:55.75
Yeah, He didn't alienate people.
00:25:55.78\00:25:57.12
Okay.
00:25:57.15\00:25:58.49
So, we have another
question for you, Danielle.
00:25:58.52\00:26:00.16
Okay.
00:26:00.19\00:26:01.89
If my child confides
in me that they are gay
00:26:01.92\00:26:04.49
or struggles with
same-sex attraction,
00:26:04.53\00:26:06.39
how should I respond?
00:26:06.43\00:26:08.60
Well, this is a
very important question
00:26:08.63\00:26:11.13
and the fact that I
think we try to help
00:26:11.17\00:26:14.84
encourage parents
everywhere that we go,
00:26:14.87\00:26:17.44
to open the
doors for conversations
00:26:17.47\00:26:19.54
with their young people,
with their children, you know.
00:26:19.57\00:26:22.41
Often we want to
drive people to see their,
00:26:22.44\00:26:26.98
what they're doing
is wrong by using shame.
00:26:27.02\00:26:29.42
And not just for us as
parents, but often in the church
00:26:29.45\00:26:34.02
or whatever situation we are,
00:26:34.06\00:26:35.59
we want to try and show people
what they're doing is wrong.
00:26:35.62\00:26:38.86
But a lot of the times
when we use shame to try
00:26:38.89\00:26:42.53
and correct someone,
00:26:42.56\00:26:44.20
it doesn't really, it doesn't
bring them to the solution.
00:26:44.23\00:26:47.57
It doesn't bring
them through the situation
00:26:47.60\00:26:49.40
and so I would
just encourage a parent
00:26:49.44\00:26:52.37
that has a child coming to
them and opening up to them,
00:26:52.41\00:26:55.74
that this is a wonderful thing,
00:26:55.78\00:26:57.25
a wonderful thing that your
child feels a level of comfort
00:26:57.28\00:27:01.55
and confidence in you
that they can come to you
00:27:01.58\00:27:04.05
and talk to you about this
00:27:04.09\00:27:05.42
because so many
young people feel
00:27:05.45\00:27:06.92
that they could
never talk to their parents
00:27:06.96\00:27:08.56
about
struggling with sexual sin.
00:27:08.59\00:27:11.69
I've met with a number of
young girls in our academies
00:27:11.73\00:27:16.00
and situations like that
00:27:16.03\00:27:17.37
where they're
struggling with pornography
00:27:17.40\00:27:18.80
or masturbation and
I've asked them if they have,
00:27:18.83\00:27:22.47
you know, had,
00:27:22.50\00:27:24.41
if they've walked forward
and talked to their parents
00:27:24.44\00:27:26.51
to have some
kind of accountability
00:27:26.54\00:27:28.54
but they're too
afraid to do that.
00:27:28.58\00:27:30.71
They don't feel like they
can have those conversations.
00:27:30.75\00:27:32.95
So the first thing I would
do is encourage this parent that
00:27:32.98\00:27:36.45
that is good, you need to keep
those channels of communication
00:27:36.48\00:27:39.32
open with your
child and so shaming them
00:27:39.35\00:27:41.29
for coming to
you is the last thing
00:27:41.32\00:27:42.82
that you should do.
00:27:42.86\00:27:44.19
But encourage them
into a true understanding
00:27:44.23\00:27:47.96
about what the
Bible really says,
00:27:48.00\00:27:49.70
I mean, when I was young,
00:27:49.73\00:27:51.40
like Wayne says
the church tells us
00:27:51.43\00:27:53.47
that homosexuality is sin
00:27:53.50\00:27:55.20
but that's the end
of the conversation.
00:27:55.24\00:27:57.14
I knew that the Bible
condemned homosexuality
00:27:57.17\00:28:00.28
but I never really understood
God's reasoning through that.
00:28:00.31\00:28:04.31
And when I sat
down with the young girl
00:28:04.35\00:28:05.91
who was
struggling with homosexuality
00:28:05.95\00:28:08.55
and I just said,
00:28:08.58\00:28:09.92
"Let's look at
some of these verses,
00:28:09.95\00:28:11.29
let's reason through this."
00:28:11.32\00:28:12.65
God says, "Come and
let us reason together."
00:28:12.69\00:28:14.46
Let's talk about
what this really says
00:28:14.49\00:28:16.12
and come to understand
00:28:16.16\00:28:17.49
why God would say
this isn't good for us.
00:28:17.53\00:28:19.83
And that made a
profound impact on
00:28:19.86\00:28:22.66
not only how she
saw homosexuality
00:28:22.70\00:28:26.63
but the choices
that she was ready
00:28:26.67\00:28:28.20
and willing to make
in her own experience.
00:28:28.24\00:28:30.27
And so, I think sitting down
and reasoning through things
00:28:30.31\00:28:33.88
with young people,
especially our children,
00:28:33.91\00:28:36.38
is most advantageous.
00:28:36.41\00:28:38.05
And then just
giving them the courage
00:28:38.08\00:28:40.62
and the hope that
Jesus can help us with this.
00:28:40.65\00:28:43.45
The world wants to tell
us that we're born this way,
00:28:43.49\00:28:45.62
we can't
change, there's no hope.
00:28:45.65\00:28:46.99
But that's simply not true.
00:28:47.02\00:28:49.19
And we have to
believe that ourselves
00:28:49.22\00:28:50.59
if we can teach that
to our children, right?
00:28:50.63\00:28:52.59
And we are here to tell
you that it is possible.
00:28:52.63\00:28:56.77
And so that's the message that
00:28:56.80\00:28:58.67
our young people
need to be hearing,
00:28:58.70\00:29:00.14
that victory is
possible in Christ.
00:29:00.17\00:29:02.27
He can give us
the victory. Amen.
00:29:02.30\00:29:04.27
So creating a comfortable
environment for the child to be
00:29:04.31\00:29:06.98
vulnerable and taking
them to the word of God,
00:29:07.01\00:29:09.14
claiming the
promises and moving forward.
00:29:09.18\00:29:12.21
Amen. Okay.
00:29:12.25\00:29:13.85
That's great. Excellent.
00:29:13.88\00:29:15.28
Yeah. For sure.
00:29:15.32\00:29:16.65
Ron, I've heard
about different people
00:29:16.69\00:29:20.96
who have kids that are gay
00:29:20.99\00:29:22.89
and their kids
are gonna get married,
00:29:22.92\00:29:25.93
not to each other but, you know,
00:29:25.96\00:29:27.83
they're gonna have a wedding.
00:29:27.86\00:29:29.96
Should a parent
attend their gay son
00:29:30.00\00:29:33.17
or daughter's wedding and
how do you deal with that?
00:29:33.20\00:29:36.27
And this is
becoming quite a dilemma
00:29:36.30\00:29:38.31
even within the church,
00:29:38.34\00:29:39.67
especially,
since the Supreme Court
00:29:39.71\00:29:44.25
passed down a ruling,
00:29:44.28\00:29:45.88
normalizing gay
marriage in all 50 states.
00:29:45.91\00:29:49.68
And as we go
from church to church,
00:29:49.72\00:29:51.35
we find that churches are
very confused about this issue,
00:29:51.39\00:29:55.42
we've even heard
people in the church say,
00:29:55.46\00:29:57.19
"Well, now that
00:29:57.23\00:29:58.56
the Supreme Court
has made a ruling,
00:29:58.59\00:29:59.93
you know, it's up to us to abide
00:29:59.96\00:30:01.30
by the laws of the land."
00:30:01.33\00:30:03.23
And we tend to forget
God's law trumps man's law.
00:30:03.26\00:30:07.44
That's right.
00:30:07.47\00:30:08.80
Because if we don't
allow God's law to be supreme,
00:30:08.84\00:30:11.91
then there's some other laws
00:30:11.94\00:30:13.27
that are going
to be coming down,
00:30:13.31\00:30:15.18
that are going to be involved
00:30:15.21\00:30:18.28
in the final
tests for God's people.
00:30:18.31\00:30:20.68
But, you know, this question,
00:30:20.72\00:30:22.88
it's a very delicate
issue, a very sensitive issue.
00:30:22.92\00:30:29.29
We don't want to be dogmatic
00:30:29.32\00:30:31.56
because we know that
parents are really caught up
00:30:31.59\00:30:35.16
with their love
for their children,
00:30:35.20\00:30:37.07
and they don't
want to hurt them,
00:30:37.10\00:30:38.43
and they want to
show unconditional love.
00:30:38.47\00:30:42.24
But we do have a
position that we take
00:30:42.27\00:30:44.84
and we hope that people will
benefit from our observation
00:30:44.87\00:30:49.31
and perspective and that is,
00:30:49.34\00:30:51.58
that in the Garden of
Eden in the very beginning,
00:30:51.61\00:30:54.52
there were two
institutions created.
00:30:54.55\00:30:57.09
There were twin
institutions. Marriage was one.
00:30:57.12\00:31:00.92
And both of these
institutions are sacred.
00:31:00.96\00:31:03.96
And as Christians, we need
to respect that marriage is
00:31:03.99\00:31:08.26
and was designed
to be a sacred union
00:31:08.30\00:31:11.47
between a man and a woman.
00:31:11.50\00:31:13.77
And if we go to a gay wedding,
00:31:13.80\00:31:18.37
we will be
giving the impression,
00:31:18.41\00:31:20.61
whether we condone it or not,
00:31:20.64\00:31:22.78
we will be giving the impression
00:31:22.81\00:31:24.98
that we condone this union,
00:31:25.01\00:31:27.18
that we are adding
our blessing to it.
00:31:27.22\00:31:30.19
And you talk
about the counterfeit,
00:31:30.22\00:31:32.02
well, this is certainly a
counterfeit of God's design
00:31:32.05\00:31:35.26
and we don't want to give
credence to the counterfeit
00:31:35.29\00:31:39.06
of what God has designed.
00:31:39.09\00:31:41.13
So, I have
counseled a number of people
00:31:41.16\00:31:44.40
that have been caught up
in these types of situations
00:31:44.43\00:31:46.63
and they're, you know,
00:31:46.67\00:31:48.97
very confused
and very concerned.
00:31:49.00\00:31:52.81
And so, you
know, we advise people,
00:31:52.84\00:31:55.54
show
unconditional love, of course,
00:31:55.58\00:31:58.31
for your son, or
daughter, or friend,
00:31:58.35\00:32:00.95
but you don't have to go
to a gay wedding to do that.
00:32:00.98\00:32:04.15
Make sure you're involved
in their lives in other ways.
00:32:04.19\00:32:07.52
We had a couple in Arkansas
00:32:07.56\00:32:10.79
that had this very issue come up
00:32:10.83\00:32:13.13
and they are gay,
00:32:13.16\00:32:14.60
one of their twin sons was gay
00:32:14.63\00:32:17.37
and he was getting
married in California.
00:32:17.40\00:32:20.34
They flew out a
week before the wedding.
00:32:20.37\00:32:22.80
They spent time with
their son and with his partner,
00:32:22.84\00:32:25.84
a lot of quality
time, doing a lot of things
00:32:25.87\00:32:28.34
that they could do
outside of a sacred setting
00:32:28.38\00:32:31.35
or what should
be a sacred setting.
00:32:31.38\00:32:33.55
They did not go to the wedding.
00:32:33.58\00:32:34.98
They did not go
to the reception.
00:32:35.02\00:32:36.89
They stayed a week afterwards
00:32:36.92\00:32:39.15
and spent more time
with the son and so forth.
00:32:39.19\00:32:42.12
And they came
home with great peace
00:32:42.16\00:32:44.36
because they
felt, and they told me,
00:32:44.39\00:32:48.16
"Our son cannot
say we were too cheap
00:32:48.20\00:32:50.23
to make the trip
00:32:50.27\00:32:51.60
or that we didn't love
him enough to be there,
00:32:51.63\00:32:54.40
because we went
far above and beyond
00:32:54.44\00:32:57.27
what he was expecting."
00:32:57.31\00:32:59.17
And then you have also,
in conjunction with that,
00:32:59.21\00:33:02.88
what about the
yearly anniversary?
00:33:02.91\00:33:05.01
We know of some churches
00:33:05.05\00:33:06.68
that actually
celebrate gay anniversaries
00:33:06.72\00:33:10.05
in the church bulletin.
00:33:10.09\00:33:11.92
And that's, you know,
that's rather shocking.
00:33:11.95\00:33:15.52
But there are ways
that we can show our love
00:33:15.56\00:33:18.16
for these people
on a continued basis
00:33:18.19\00:33:20.53
without drawing
attention to the anniversary.
00:33:20.56\00:33:23.50
We can send them
00:33:23.53\00:33:24.87
"Thinking of you"
cards throughout the year.
00:33:24.90\00:33:27.44
Don't wait for one of
these occasions to make contact.
00:33:27.47\00:33:31.94
Be in communication
00:33:31.97\00:33:33.38
and have an ongoing relationship
00:33:33.41\00:33:35.81
throughout the year.
00:33:35.84\00:33:37.35
And there are so many ways
in which you can be involved
00:33:37.38\00:33:39.75
in the lives of
these dear family members
00:33:39.78\00:33:43.22
and friends in
a secular setting,
00:33:43.25\00:33:46.55
outside of what should
be a sacred institution.
00:33:46.59\00:33:52.16
That's a great answer.
00:33:52.19\00:33:53.53
And the other
institution, at creation,
00:33:53.56\00:33:56.50
there were two,
marriage and the Sabbath.
00:33:56.53\00:33:59.37
Right. And that
would be the Sabbath.
00:33:59.40\00:34:00.74
And see, I, just to follow
up this little bit more on that,
00:34:00.77\00:34:05.34
we are being
tested, I believe today.
00:34:05.37\00:34:09.24
How are we going to stand
for one of God's commandments?
00:34:09.28\00:34:13.68
And not only is the
devil testing to see
00:34:13.72\00:34:16.79
if he can get
away with legislating
00:34:16.82\00:34:19.75
a redefinition of
marriage on a global basis,
00:34:19.79\00:34:23.96
but eventually, he's
going to try legislating
00:34:23.99\00:34:27.23
a redefinition of the
fourth commandment, Sabbath.
00:34:27.26\00:34:30.43
And we need to
realize that he's testing us
00:34:30.47\00:34:33.70
on a very sacred
institution here,
00:34:33.74\00:34:36.54
in preparation
for his final assault
00:34:36.57\00:34:40.61
on the fourth commandment
having to do with worship.
00:34:40.64\00:34:43.88
And so we need to
really think carefully
00:34:43.91\00:34:47.02
about these issues.
00:34:47.05\00:34:49.18
Good.
00:34:49.22\00:34:50.99
Mike, okay, is there
a Biblical conclusion
00:34:51.02\00:34:55.92
as to whether one is born gay?
00:34:55.96\00:34:59.59
I like the way you phrase that,
00:34:59.63\00:35:01.50
the conclusion on
your beginning, right?
00:35:01.53\00:35:04.57
So when I came to Christ,
again, I wanted to know why.
00:35:04.60\00:35:08.00
From my earliest
thoughts, you know,
00:35:08.04\00:35:09.80
I bought into the whole
idea that I was born this way.
00:35:09.84\00:35:12.07
I don't remember a time
00:35:12.11\00:35:13.68
when I wasn't odd or different
from the other boys in school.
00:35:13.71\00:35:17.18
So as God was
generous to show me
00:35:17.21\00:35:20.22
that there were reasons
or things that had happened,
00:35:20.25\00:35:23.39
I looked at even Exodus 20:8,
00:35:23.42\00:35:25.39
talking about the
sins of the generations
00:35:25.42\00:35:27.69
that have followed to
three and four generations.
00:35:27.72\00:35:30.29
And I could see even
in my parents' history,
00:35:30.33\00:35:34.03
through the generations
that there was sexual sin.
00:35:34.06\00:35:36.90
And while I wasn't born
gay, what had happened is
00:35:36.93\00:35:39.47
I got derailed by the
rejection of my father,
00:35:39.50\00:35:42.44
the gender
confusion which followed me
00:35:42.47\00:35:44.24
until I was 20 years old,
00:35:44.27\00:35:45.84
identifying with my
mother instead of my dad,
00:35:45.87\00:35:47.78
so that helped me to realize
00:35:47.81\00:35:50.15
that we were all
born in inequity,
00:35:50.18\00:35:52.41
we were all shaped in
inequity and born into sin.
00:35:52.45\00:35:55.45
And that helps me
to understand that
00:35:55.48\00:35:57.15
that was the beginning.
00:35:57.19\00:35:58.85
But the beautiful thing
00:35:58.89\00:36:00.22
and I have to go
back to the movie
00:36:00.26\00:36:01.86
and quote
something that Ron said.
00:36:01.89\00:36:03.73
He said, "Jesus does
have an answer to that,
00:36:03.76\00:36:05.66
and that we all
must be born again."
00:36:05.69\00:36:07.90
And I'd like to use, you
know, the scripture verse,
00:36:07.93\00:36:10.13
II Corinthians 5:17.
00:36:10.17\00:36:12.27
It says, "If any
man be in Christ,
00:36:12.30\00:36:13.87
he is a new creature.
00:36:13.90\00:36:15.64
Old things are passed away,
00:36:15.67\00:36:17.37
behold, all
things are become new."
00:36:17.41\00:36:19.84
And so that's why we're
not gay Christians, we're,
00:36:19.87\00:36:23.51
you know, we
don't identify ourselves
00:36:23.55\00:36:25.35
with even the sin temptation
00:36:25.38\00:36:27.05
because Jesus was
tempted like all of us
00:36:27.08\00:36:29.68
and yet without sin.
00:36:29.72\00:36:31.05
And so because I still may
struggle with those thoughts
00:36:31.09\00:36:33.59
inside my head,
00:36:33.62\00:36:34.96
I'm not
engaging in that behavior
00:36:34.99\00:36:36.52
because my identity
now is not in my struggle,
00:36:36.56\00:36:39.76
my identity now is in Christ.
00:36:39.79\00:36:42.23
And there's a beautiful
quote I'd like to share.
00:36:42.26\00:36:44.50
It says, "Through
the power of Christ,
00:36:44.53\00:36:46.50
men and women have broken
the chains of sinful habit."
00:36:46.53\00:36:50.71
That doesn't mean
that the struggle goes away
00:36:50.74\00:36:52.64
but the habit, God
gives us the victory over.
00:36:52.67\00:36:55.68
"They've renounced selfishness.
00:36:55.71\00:36:57.65
The profane had become reverent,
00:36:57.68\00:36:59.51
the drunken sober,
and the profligate pure.
00:36:59.55\00:37:03.18
Souls that have
borne the likeness of Satan
00:37:03.22\00:37:05.75
have become transformed
into the image of God.
00:37:05.79\00:37:08.46
This change is, in
itself, the miracle of miracles.
00:37:08.49\00:37:12.43
A change wrought by the Word,
00:37:12.46\00:37:14.23
it is one of the
deepest mysteries of the Word.
00:37:14.26\00:37:16.77
We cannot understand
it, we can only believe,
00:37:16.80\00:37:19.73
as declared by the Scriptures,
00:37:19.77\00:37:21.37
it is 'Christ in
you, the hope of glory.'"
00:37:21.40\00:37:24.31
And one of the scripture texts
00:37:24.34\00:37:25.77
that I use a lot in
my own presentations
00:37:25.81\00:37:28.04
is Philippians 2:5,
00:37:28.08\00:37:29.94
and simply says allowing
the mind of Christ to come in.
00:37:29.98\00:37:33.65
And so what was really
earth-shattering for me
00:37:33.68\00:37:36.22
is that, Jesus wasn't
saying, "Stop being gay,"
00:37:36.25\00:37:39.35
because He knew that
that was the struggle
00:37:39.39\00:37:42.16
that I created and
that I'd cultivated.
00:37:42.19\00:37:44.66
He was saying,
"Just stop resisting me."
00:37:44.69\00:37:46.46
Because He knew I
couldn't stop being gay.
00:37:46.49\00:37:48.73
So as I, you know,
yearned more for Christ,
00:37:48.76\00:37:52.33
as He was more faithful to me,
00:37:52.37\00:37:54.40
I started to realize that
by claiming the mind of Christ
00:37:54.44\00:37:57.24
that I found there was victory
on the other side of that.
00:37:57.27\00:38:00.44
It didn't take
away the struggle,
00:38:00.48\00:38:01.81
it didn't mean
that all of sudden,
00:38:01.84\00:38:03.18
it was gone "Poof!"
00:38:03.21\00:38:04.55
you know, like a magic wand
00:38:04.58\00:38:06.51
but instead what
it was, was this,
00:38:06.55\00:38:08.68
this combination of
working with Christ.
00:38:08.72\00:38:10.72
As I stopped resisting him,
00:38:10.75\00:38:12.45
I found that there was power
and victory over the things
00:38:12.49\00:38:14.66
that had become
master of my life.
00:38:14.69\00:38:16.09
Amen. So you're a
co-laborer with Christ?
00:38:16.12\00:38:18.59
Hallelujah. I love it.
00:38:18.63\00:38:20.86
So, Wayne, how do you
identify yourself today?
00:38:20.90\00:38:24.07
Are you an ex-gay?
00:38:24.10\00:38:25.83
Are you...
00:38:25.87\00:38:27.20
Like, where are you
in this whole thing?
00:38:27.24\00:38:29.87
You know, that was a question
that I had after my conversion
00:38:29.90\00:38:33.98
and I was at a, my
first speaking engagement.
00:38:34.01\00:38:37.38
And I said to the person
who helped me find Christ.
00:38:37.41\00:38:41.68
I said, "Oh, who am I today?"
00:38:41.72\00:38:44.42
And she said, "Oh,
you're still a gay."
00:38:44.45\00:38:46.22
And I said, "No,
I don't think so.
00:38:46.25\00:38:49.12
I couldn't possibly be
00:38:49.16\00:38:50.66
because what did I just give up?
00:38:50.69\00:38:52.66
If I just went through
this process of conversion,
00:38:52.69\00:38:55.70
and repentance,
00:38:55.73\00:38:57.17
and giving my
life over to Christ,
00:38:57.20\00:38:58.67
I'm not the same
person who I used to be."
00:38:58.70\00:39:01.30
And it became a
real focus of my study.
00:39:01.34\00:39:04.04
And as Mike alluded to,
as we're talking about, here,
00:39:04.07\00:39:08.04
about what your
true identity is,
00:39:08.08\00:39:09.81
II Corinthians
5:17 is very clear that
00:39:09.84\00:39:13.15
when I give myself
over to Jesus Christ,
00:39:13.18\00:39:15.45
I become a new creation.
00:39:15.48\00:39:17.19
Let's say that you find
that, that in your life,
00:39:17.22\00:39:20.16
you've
participated in being a glutton,
00:39:20.19\00:39:23.83
and you're
convicted by a health message,
00:39:23.86\00:39:27.60
and you began to eat right,
00:39:27.63\00:39:30.20
and you shed
all kinds of pounds,
00:39:30.23\00:39:32.43
and pretty soon, you know,
00:39:32.47\00:39:33.80
you find that
you're a fit person,
00:39:33.84\00:39:36.14
do you now
identify as a fat Christian?
00:39:36.17\00:39:40.08
You know, or a non
practicing fat Christian?
00:39:40.11\00:39:44.25
You know, it doesn't make sense.
00:39:44.28\00:39:45.98
So, all right, so,
and some were like,
00:39:46.01\00:39:48.02
"Oh, well, that's not,
00:39:48.05\00:39:49.38
you know, that's
not quite enough.
00:39:49.42\00:39:50.75
I don't know, you know,
00:39:50.79\00:39:52.12
I still think
you're still a gay."
00:39:52.15\00:39:53.49
"Okay, so let's go to Paul
who was on the way to Damascus,
00:39:53.52\00:39:57.56
and God said, 'Stop,
00:39:57.59\00:39:59.49
stop being in the
support of killing of Christians
00:39:59.53\00:40:02.26
and become a Christian.'
00:40:02.30\00:40:03.83
And he agrees
and he goes forward,
00:40:03.87\00:40:05.70
but the ministry
that God gave him,
00:40:05.73\00:40:07.24
does he identify
00:40:07.27\00:40:09.04
as a
Christian-killing Christian?"
00:40:09.07\00:40:11.17
You know, he doesn't.
It doesn't make any sense.
00:40:11.21\00:40:13.64
So we throw out all
of these analogies today,
00:40:13.68\00:40:16.51
of which any one thinks
00:40:16.54\00:40:18.15
it's absolutely
ridiculous to identify
00:40:18.18\00:40:20.28
except for when we get to gay,
00:40:20.32\00:40:23.92
there are so many people
00:40:23.95\00:40:25.99
in and outside of
Christianity today,
00:40:26.02\00:40:28.72
who still wanna say,
"You're a gay, no matter what,"
00:40:28.76\00:40:31.56
which kind of brings
us back to the great thing
00:40:31.59\00:40:35.50
that Bill Wilson
did for alcoholics
00:40:35.53\00:40:37.83
in helping them find sobriety.
00:40:37.87\00:40:40.14
But he did something
that the Bible doesn't do.
00:40:40.17\00:40:43.61
And he hung an albatross
around their neck saying that,
00:40:43.64\00:40:46.91
"Every time you
come into a meeting,
00:40:46.94\00:40:48.91
you still
identify as an alcoholic,
00:40:48.94\00:40:50.95
even if you haven't
drank for 40 years."
00:40:50.98\00:40:53.68
But if you come to the foot
of the cross of Jesus Christ,
00:40:53.72\00:40:57.65
does He say,
"My dear alcoholic,"
00:40:57.69\00:41:01.22
or does He say to you,
00:41:01.26\00:41:03.29
"My dear child, my
new believer in Christ,
00:41:03.32\00:41:06.59
my new creation in Jesus today."
00:41:06.63\00:41:11.47
You have something in Jesus
that the world can't give you.
00:41:11.50\00:41:15.24
And so your focus...
00:41:15.27\00:41:16.60
Our focus today is
not in that the fact
00:41:16.64\00:41:20.51
that I'm still
maybe tempted today
00:41:20.54\00:41:22.74
and I have to
identify by those temptations.
00:41:22.78\00:41:25.48
But what am I doing
with the temptation?
00:41:25.51\00:41:28.05
Am I
surrendering to Jesus Christ?
00:41:28.08\00:41:30.59
Or am I walking forward
00:41:30.62\00:41:32.22
as a new
creature in Jesus Christ?
00:41:32.25\00:41:34.36
A good response to that,
00:41:34.39\00:41:35.79
when somebody says
that you're still a gay,
00:41:35.82\00:41:38.39
you'll be like,
"Oh, so you believe that
00:41:38.43\00:41:39.89
God can't give
you the victory, huh?"
00:41:39.93\00:41:42.66
Exactly. You're
making God in a box.
00:41:42.70\00:41:44.83
Yeah, absolutely.
00:41:44.87\00:41:47.20
Danielle, if
someone is struggling
00:41:47.24\00:41:49.00
with same-sex attraction,
00:41:49.04\00:41:50.37
how can they get
control over their thoughts?
00:41:50.41\00:41:53.27
Well, I think
that's the perfect place
00:41:53.31\00:41:55.24
to start really
is with the thoughts
00:41:55.28\00:41:57.11
because our
thoughts drive our actions,
00:41:57.15\00:42:00.78
and our actions form our habits,
00:42:00.82\00:42:02.48
and that's really
00:42:02.52\00:42:04.72
where the battle
begins for all of us,
00:42:04.75\00:42:07.46
it's with our thoughts.
00:42:07.49\00:42:08.82
And so I think that's the place
that all of us need to begin
00:42:08.86\00:42:11.89
if we want to
establish ourselves in victory
00:42:11.93\00:42:14.23
and to have a new set of habits
and a new character in life.
00:42:14.26\00:42:20.74
I think the most
important thing for us to do
00:42:20.77\00:42:22.97
when it comes to our
thoughts is to recognize that
00:42:23.00\00:42:25.51
if there's any thought
that enters into our mind
00:42:25.54\00:42:27.61
that's not in harmony
with the expressed will of God,
00:42:27.64\00:42:30.45
we can be sure that
that thought was encouraged
00:42:30.48\00:42:33.82
or cultivated from
the enemy of souls, right?
00:42:33.85\00:42:36.69
If it didn't come from the Lord,
00:42:36.72\00:42:38.45
then it must
have been encouraged
00:42:38.49\00:42:39.82
from some other source.
00:42:39.85\00:42:41.59
And so at that point,
00:42:41.62\00:42:44.46
we can recognize that
this is coming from the enemy
00:42:44.49\00:42:48.36
and therefore, we
don't have to accept it
00:42:48.40\00:42:50.73
as our own thought.
00:42:50.77\00:42:52.10
A lot of the times,
the enemy will step in
00:42:52.13\00:42:54.34
and he will present
ideas or temptations to us
00:42:54.37\00:42:58.34
in first person so that we think
00:42:58.37\00:43:00.21
that we're
thinking in this direction.
00:43:00.24\00:43:01.64
We think that this is who we are
00:43:01.68\00:43:03.08
because it keeps
coming into our minds,
00:43:03.11\00:43:06.11
but when we acknowledge the fact
00:43:06.15\00:43:07.85
that we don't have to
own this thought as our own,
00:43:07.88\00:43:10.29
we can say, "No, this is
not from God, this is not mine.
00:43:10.32\00:43:14.32
This is from the enemy.
00:43:14.36\00:43:15.69
And I'm going to
reject this thought.
00:43:15.72\00:43:17.93
And I'm not gonna
allow my thoughts to travel
00:43:17.96\00:43:21.03
across in these
directions anymore.
00:43:21.06\00:43:23.93
Instead, I'm gonna
turn away from that thought
00:43:23.97\00:43:26.63
and I'm gonna
place my attention,
00:43:26.67\00:43:29.10
my mental attention, and focus
00:43:29.14\00:43:30.94
on what God says
about this thing."
00:43:30.97\00:43:34.38
You know, if the
enemy is trying to tell me
00:43:34.41\00:43:38.18
that I'm gay and that I have
to give into these temptations
00:43:38.21\00:43:41.15
or that this is just who I am,
00:43:41.18\00:43:43.35
I can put my mind
back on these promises
00:43:43.39\00:43:45.49
that my brothers
have been sharing with us
00:43:45.52\00:43:47.86
or my favorite
is Philippians 1:6,
00:43:47.89\00:43:50.29
that says, "I can be
confident in the very fact
00:43:50.33\00:43:53.46
that if God has
began a work in me,
00:43:53.50\00:43:55.36
He will perform it
until the day of Jesus Christ,
00:43:55.40\00:43:58.03
until the character of His
Son is formed within my heart
00:43:58.07\00:44:01.94
and until Christ
comes to receive me."
00:44:01.97\00:44:03.81
And so that's where
I can place my focus,
00:44:03.84\00:44:06.64
that's where I
can place my trust.
00:44:06.68\00:44:08.31
And so we have
to practice the art,
00:44:08.34\00:44:11.31
it really does
require attention and focus.
00:44:11.35\00:44:14.98
We have to become mindful of
where our thoughts are running.
00:44:15.02\00:44:17.82
And we have to turn
away from those temptations,
00:44:17.85\00:44:20.16
turn away from the lies,
00:44:20.19\00:44:22.06
and focus our mind
on the truths of God.
00:44:22.09\00:44:25.59
And the more that we do that,
the more we become like Christ
00:44:25.63\00:44:28.96
because as we behold,
we become changed, right?
00:44:29.00\00:44:32.47
So instead of just
allowing my thoughts to continue
00:44:32.50\00:44:34.90
in the negative direction,
00:44:34.94\00:44:36.67
I can place my mind on
Christ and in doing that,
00:44:36.71\00:44:40.01
God will work in my character
00:44:40.04\00:44:41.91
and it will become
more natural for me
00:44:41.94\00:44:43.78
to turn to Him just
like the flower turns
00:44:43.81\00:44:45.51
towards the sun.
00:44:45.55\00:44:46.88
You are preaching.
You better go, girl.
00:44:46.92\00:44:50.45
Preaching. Amen.
00:44:50.49\00:44:51.82
I love it. I love it.
00:44:51.85\00:44:53.66
Yeah, it's so important
that we yield the will.
00:44:53.69\00:44:58.86
The will is a
very powerful thing.
00:44:58.89\00:45:01.53
We can either kind of
be reactive or proactive.
00:45:01.56\00:45:06.80
And if we are proactive
00:45:06.84\00:45:08.64
and develop
spiritual disciplines,
00:45:08.67\00:45:10.84
you know, and know that,
00:45:10.87\00:45:13.04
"Okay, I have got
to talk to the Lord.
00:45:13.07\00:45:15.84
I have got to
because if I don't,
00:45:15.88\00:45:17.71
I will sink."
00:45:17.75\00:45:19.08
It's like the
guest on another program
00:45:19.11\00:45:22.75
that we did said,
00:45:22.78\00:45:24.12
"It's just like air,
00:45:24.15\00:45:25.72
if you're
drowning, you need air.
00:45:25.75\00:45:28.96
If you're
drowning in temptation,
00:45:28.99\00:45:31.36
you have to have Jesus.
00:45:31.39\00:45:33.23
Otherwise you're
just gonna sink."
00:45:33.26\00:45:35.53
And it really makes sense.
00:45:35.56\00:45:37.97
We have to give our will to Him.
00:45:38.00\00:45:40.80
So I loved your explanation
for that. It's beautiful.
00:45:40.84\00:45:45.31
Ron, how do, as a Christian,
00:45:45.34\00:45:50.18
how do I know if
somebody who is gay
00:45:50.21\00:45:53.58
or it's that they used to be gay
00:45:53.62\00:45:55.75
and now they're converted?
00:45:55.78\00:45:57.12
How do you know
if they're converted?
00:45:57.15\00:46:00.19
You know, the word of God says,
00:46:00.22\00:46:01.72
"By their fruits,
ye shall know them."
00:46:01.76\00:46:05.03
And I know there
are a lot of people
00:46:05.06\00:46:06.39
that come to
summon our group saying,
00:46:06.43\00:46:09.83
"Well, when are
you getting married?
00:46:09.86\00:46:12.90
If you get married, then
we'll know you're cured."
00:46:12.93\00:46:16.40
It's a total misunderstanding
of what conversion is.
00:46:16.44\00:46:21.48
And one thing we need to,
not be private investigators.
00:46:21.51\00:46:26.45
If a person is
coming into the faith,
00:46:26.48\00:46:29.35
and they are
excited about the Lord,
00:46:29.38\00:46:30.99
and they are
turning over new leaf,
00:46:31.02\00:46:32.89
and they are renouncing sin,
00:46:32.92\00:46:35.02
and even acknowledging
what their sin was,
00:46:35.06\00:46:38.69
we need to accept that.
00:46:38.73\00:46:40.70
Now if a person
comes into the faith
00:46:40.73\00:46:43.40
or into the church,
00:46:43.43\00:46:45.03
and then they start
manifesting defense of sin,
00:46:45.07\00:46:50.34
or an agenda, or
they're in open sin,
00:46:50.37\00:46:55.64
then we have a problem.
00:46:55.68\00:46:57.98
If they are
confronted because we are to,
00:46:58.01\00:47:00.48
if someone is dealing,
is involved in open sin,
00:47:00.52\00:47:03.79
they are to be approached,
it's a redemptive process.
00:47:03.82\00:47:08.29
If that person is
defending the open sin,
00:47:08.32\00:47:11.99
that's a sign of
not being converted.
00:47:12.03\00:47:16.53
And if a person
is acknowledging that
00:47:16.56\00:47:20.07
they're struggling with sin,
and struggling with temptation,
00:47:20.10\00:47:24.41
that's a good sign
because, of course,
00:47:24.44\00:47:27.74
there are three
texts of scripture
00:47:27.78\00:47:29.48
that really were
pivotal in my experience.
00:47:29.51\00:47:33.35
The one about Jesus in Hebrews 4
00:47:33.38\00:47:35.48
that said He was tempted
in all points like it's me,
00:47:35.52\00:47:39.39
yet without sin.
00:47:39.42\00:47:41.02
I have heard some people say,
00:47:41.06\00:47:42.42
"Surely you don't mean Jesus
was tempted like that, do you?"
00:47:42.46\00:47:47.00
And I said,
"Well, how do you think
00:47:47.03\00:47:48.40
He was tempted, like you?"
00:47:48.43\00:47:50.27
You know.
00:47:50.30\00:47:52.63
He was tempted like me.
00:47:52.67\00:47:54.07
Don't take that
text away from me
00:47:54.10\00:47:57.01
but Jesus was
tempted in all points,
00:47:57.04\00:47:59.07
so it's not a sin to be tempted.
00:47:59.11\00:48:01.31
Otherwise, Jesus might have
been the chiefest of sinners,
00:48:01.34\00:48:04.61
not the Apostle
Paul or Ron Woolsey.
00:48:04.65\00:48:06.85
And then there's
Hebrews 2 that says
00:48:06.88\00:48:08.98
that Jesus
suffered being tempted.
00:48:09.02\00:48:13.96
He struggled.
00:48:13.99\00:48:15.32
Well, struggle is
something that makes you strong.
00:48:15.36\00:48:18.39
It's okay to
struggle with temptation.
00:48:18.43\00:48:21.60
It's the giving
in, that's the problem.
00:48:21.63\00:48:24.43
It's the giving
up, that's the problem.
00:48:24.47\00:48:27.24
And Jesus resisted, Hebrews 12,
00:48:27.27\00:48:29.44
He resisted under
blood striving against sin.
00:48:29.47\00:48:32.74
And so, if we find
someone who is struggling
00:48:32.77\00:48:35.58
with temptation,
and struggling with sin,
00:48:35.61\00:48:38.78
that's healthy
because they're resisting.
00:48:38.81\00:48:43.39
And we need to help
them in that resistance,
00:48:43.42\00:48:45.42
help them know how to
submit to God on a daily basis,
00:48:45.45\00:48:49.76
then resist the
devil, and he will flee.
00:48:49.79\00:48:52.09
Amen.
00:48:52.13\00:48:53.46
But a sure sign of
someone not being converted is
00:48:53.50\00:48:56.87
when they are
trying to get the church
00:48:56.90\00:48:59.50
to change its position about sin
00:48:59.53\00:49:02.20
rather than the
sinner changing his behavior.
00:49:02.24\00:49:05.11
And so we can, I mean,
00:49:05.14\00:49:08.14
we are supposed to be
able to discern these things
00:49:08.18\00:49:11.75
that we should not
be private investigators
00:49:11.78\00:49:13.88
and try to snoop out someone
00:49:13.92\00:49:16.12
who is coming in
from a life of a practice
00:49:16.15\00:49:21.22
that we don't understand,
00:49:21.26\00:49:22.59
or we think is really repulsive,
00:49:22.62\00:49:24.16
or whatever.
00:49:24.19\00:49:25.83
Give them the rain
00:49:25.86\00:49:27.80
that they need to
bring forth the fruit
00:49:27.83\00:49:30.50
that they need
to, for repentance,
00:49:30.53\00:49:33.47
and to demonstrate
that fruit of conversion.
00:49:33.50\00:49:36.67
It's good. It's good.
00:49:36.71\00:49:39.27
Mike, my pastor is gay affirming
00:49:39.31\00:49:42.24
and I don't want
to approve of sin.
00:49:42.28\00:49:45.18
How can I be an
example of Christ's love
00:49:45.21\00:49:47.92
and not accept gay monogamy
00:49:47.95\00:49:50.09
without being
perceived as a bigot?
00:49:50.12\00:49:52.55
Right, it's interesting
that Ron's question was
00:49:52.59\00:49:55.52
before my question
00:49:55.56\00:49:57.13
because that really is what
we're finding wherever we go
00:49:57.16\00:49:59.66
and present is that
you have one or the other.
00:49:59.69\00:50:02.56
You have this extremely
critical view of homosexuality
00:50:02.60\00:50:07.47
that it's disgusting
00:50:07.50\00:50:08.97
and we're not
gonna talk about it,
00:50:09.00\00:50:10.34
we're not gonna address it,
or we're just gonna judge it.
00:50:10.37\00:50:13.07
And then you have completely
the other side of making it,
00:50:13.11\00:50:16.18
well, there's
nothing wrong with it.
00:50:16.21\00:50:17.55
And, you know, Jesus loves
and we're told in the Bible
00:50:17.58\00:50:20.32
that we're
supposed to love everybody
00:50:20.35\00:50:22.28
and so, you know, we have this,
these extreme on both sides.
00:50:22.32\00:50:26.86
And that's really
what we see a lot.
00:50:26.89\00:50:29.39
I think about an example of
00:50:29.42\00:50:31.89
how can I especially
in an environment where,
00:50:31.93\00:50:35.26
you know, even the
pastor is gay-affirming
00:50:35.30\00:50:36.97
and there is a
gentlemen that we met
00:50:37.00\00:50:38.73
that who was gay
for over 20 years,
00:50:38.77\00:50:41.60
and living in a
gay relationship,
00:50:41.64\00:50:43.94
and all of a sudden, he
started having these dreams
00:50:43.97\00:50:46.37
that it was the end of time
00:50:46.41\00:50:48.31
and the Lord was
telling him in his dreams,
00:50:48.34\00:50:49.71
"This is not
what I have for you".
00:50:49.74\00:50:51.88
And it started moving
him to the Bible again,
00:50:51.91\00:50:54.02
he started going to
church in Southern California,
00:50:54.05\00:50:56.92
to probably the number one
gay-affirming church there.
00:50:56.95\00:51:00.26
And as he's
going to church there,
00:51:00.29\00:51:01.99
he's studying for
himself and he called us up,
00:51:02.02\00:51:05.33
Coming Out Ministries,
and we've talked with him
00:51:05.36\00:51:08.43
and we've said,
"Come and check us out."
00:51:08.46\00:51:10.40
You know, he's actually come
and seen the movie for himself,
00:51:10.43\00:51:14.47
was moved to tears,
and realized that he had,
00:51:14.50\00:51:16.71
he said, at the end
of, seen the movie twice,
00:51:16.74\00:51:19.57
he said, "I realize now
that, that there are changes
00:51:19.61\00:51:21.78
that I need to make in my life."
00:51:21.81\00:51:23.14
So now he's back in
Southern California,
00:51:23.18\00:51:25.08
teaching Sabbath school
in this gay-affirming church
00:51:25.11\00:51:27.95
and he is walking with the Lord.
00:51:27.98\00:51:30.35
But he's not doing it in a way
00:51:30.39\00:51:32.15
that he's like
shouting from the front that
00:51:32.19\00:51:34.06
this is an
abomination and, you know,
00:51:34.09\00:51:36.12
leave this life, instead,
he's leading by an example.
00:51:36.16\00:51:39.36
He's showing that the
love of Jesus has a power,
00:51:39.39\00:51:42.66
you know, that changes people.
00:51:42.70\00:51:44.33
And I think
that, that's powerful.
00:51:44.37\00:51:46.13
If you have a church
that is gay-affirming,
00:51:46.17\00:51:49.74
I think that God
needs you in that church
00:51:49.77\00:51:51.61
to show what the right is
and to plead with the pastor
00:51:51.64\00:51:54.41
to study those, you
know, passages in the Bible
00:51:54.44\00:51:57.55
and still if, if
nothing has changed,
00:51:57.58\00:51:59.71
then God still needs
you to walk the middle line
00:51:59.75\00:52:02.35
to not be
hateful, to not be bigoted,
00:52:02.38\00:52:05.69
but to be loving
in your approach.
00:52:05.72\00:52:07.26
And I think that
people will see that,
00:52:07.29\00:52:09.42
you know, by your example.
00:52:09.46\00:52:11.03
I know of a story of a pastor
that when AIDS first came out,
00:52:11.06\00:52:14.50
it was so reprehensible
00:52:14.53\00:52:15.86
that nobody
wanted to touch the gays
00:52:15.90\00:52:17.80
but this pastor
himself would take blankets
00:52:17.83\00:52:20.04
to the AIDS clinic
00:52:20.07\00:52:21.40
and he would help
them to find jobs,
00:52:21.44\00:52:23.30
and he would bring them
food, and all of a sudden,
00:52:23.34\00:52:25.67
these gays started
coming into his churches.
00:52:25.71\00:52:28.38
And the people
started getting up
00:52:28.41\00:52:29.94
and they said,
"Pastor, the gays are coming."
00:52:29.98\00:52:32.11
And he said "Well,
let them have a seat
00:52:32.15\00:52:33.62
with all the others sinners."
00:52:33.65\00:52:35.02
And that was a
powerful example to me that,
00:52:35.05\00:52:38.05
even if you're in a
situation that's gay-affirming,
00:52:38.09\00:52:40.99
you be the example, you get up,
00:52:41.02\00:52:42.99
you show what true love looks
like to the LGBTQ community
00:52:43.02\00:52:48.20
and at the same time,
hold the truth of God.
00:52:48.23\00:52:50.77
And, again, we
really strongly believe that
00:52:50.80\00:52:53.90
that some of the gay-affirming
issues are correct.
00:52:53.94\00:52:57.77
That we, as a church,
have been incredibly unloving,
00:52:57.81\00:53:00.91
and judgmental,
00:53:00.94\00:53:02.28
and until the church
really changes that around
00:53:02.31\00:53:04.51
and shows what the
love of Christ looks like
00:53:04.55\00:53:06.38
in a redemptive and healing way,
00:53:06.41\00:53:08.82
then we really
can make a difference
00:53:08.85\00:53:11.09
in the world today.
00:53:11.12\00:53:12.45
And that's what
you guys do, isn't it?
00:53:12.49\00:53:13.99
You go to different
churches and organizations
00:53:14.02\00:53:16.83
and kind of share
00:53:16.86\00:53:18.36
how to minister to
the LGBT community,
00:53:18.39\00:53:22.76
just how they handle this,
00:53:22.80\00:53:25.67
the various situations
00:53:25.70\00:53:27.04
that are coming up
in these questions,
00:53:27.07\00:53:28.50
because people have questions
00:53:28.54\00:53:30.67
and it is such a
socially relevant topic
00:53:30.71\00:53:35.21
and so much has changed
within the past several years
00:53:35.24\00:53:38.31
that it's just,
it's really phenomenal.
00:53:38.35\00:53:41.75
Yvonne, when we
were speaking in Pasadena
00:53:41.78\00:53:44.19
and we've talked
about Pasadena before
00:53:44.22\00:53:46.25
and there was a gentleman
who came very reluctantly
00:53:46.29\00:53:49.12
and was very defensive,
00:53:49.16\00:53:50.69
you know, to Wayne and
I as we are presenting,
00:53:50.73\00:53:52.73
but he saw the movie
here at the Q&A afterwards.
00:53:52.76\00:53:55.36
And the man came
up to us afterwards,
00:53:55.40\00:53:57.33
he was sobbing,
the guy was sobbing,
00:53:57.37\00:53:59.47
and he broke
down and just told us
00:53:59.50\00:54:01.44
that he has been out of
the church for ten years,
00:54:01.47\00:54:04.04
identified as gay, and
he said, "Ten years ago,
00:54:04.07\00:54:06.98
I walked out of church knowing
that there was no place for me,
00:54:07.01\00:54:09.18
that, that I didn't belong here
and they made that very clear."
00:54:09.21\00:54:12.58
And he said, "But
after watching your movie,"
00:54:12.61\00:54:14.38
he said, "I identified
with absolutely every point
00:54:14.42\00:54:17.35
that each person
has in the movie."
00:54:17.39\00:54:19.22
And he said, "I realize now
00:54:19.25\00:54:21.09
that I do have a
place in the church.
00:54:21.12\00:54:23.22
I realize now I do belong."
00:54:23.26\00:54:25.26
And for him, this revelation
00:54:25.29\00:54:26.96
and these tears
were the breakthrough
00:54:27.00\00:54:28.56
that he'd been looking for
00:54:28.60\00:54:30.23
which was especially
affirming for all of us
00:54:30.27\00:54:32.63
because that's
what we were looking for
00:54:32.67\00:54:34.77
when we came
back into the church.
00:54:34.80\00:54:36.17
Amen.
00:54:36.20\00:54:37.54
Good, I just had that,
in Coming Out Ministries,
00:54:37.57\00:54:40.68
we do travel
around the churches,
00:54:40.71\00:54:42.81
around the world,
00:54:42.84\00:54:44.18
where we're traveling
quite a bit internationally
00:54:44.21\00:54:46.25
and our testimonies do,
00:54:46.28\00:54:48.98
we find bring a lot of
inspiration to the churches.
00:54:49.02\00:54:52.12
But we go much beyond that
00:54:52.15\00:54:54.02
because we feel it's
important to enlighten,
00:54:54.06\00:54:57.43
not just inspire, but
to enlighten, to educate.
00:54:57.46\00:55:00.10
Yes. Yes. And to equip.
00:55:00.13\00:55:01.66
And the Lord is
using our ministry now,
00:55:01.70\00:55:04.77
to provide, produce and
provide the very resources
00:55:04.80\00:55:09.27
that we wish we had
when we were going through
00:55:09.30\00:55:11.31
our struggle in our youth.
00:55:11.34\00:55:12.84
So that is a major
part of our ministry.
00:55:12.87\00:55:15.04
And then it's so
important because we need tools,
00:55:15.08\00:55:18.71
people need
tools, and it's not just,
00:55:18.75\00:55:20.88
one of the things I love
about Coming Out Ministries is,
00:55:20.92\00:55:23.42
it's not just
about the gay culture,
00:55:23.45\00:55:26.59
it's about sin, period.
00:55:26.62\00:55:30.06
People are so afraid
to call sin, sin nowadays,
00:55:30.09\00:55:33.13
you know, if it's
this, well, don't call it sin
00:55:33.16\00:55:36.50
'cause that's who I am.
00:55:36.53\00:55:38.50
No, sin is sin,
00:55:38.53\00:55:40.84
and but it doesn't mean
00:55:40.87\00:55:42.77
that we can't be
redeemed from sin.
00:55:42.80\00:55:45.11
So, I just love what you all do,
00:55:45.14\00:55:48.64
and I'm so proud of the fact
00:55:48.68\00:55:50.95
that you've put
yourselves out there
00:55:50.98\00:55:53.31
and you're just, you're
really working in the venue,
00:55:53.35\00:55:56.15
in the frontlines really.
00:55:56.18\00:55:58.05
We have one more question.
00:55:58.09\00:55:59.45
Jay, you wanna ask it? Sure.
00:55:59.49\00:56:01.52
This can go out
to anyone of you.
00:56:01.56\00:56:05.16
If a gay couple
comes to the church
00:56:05.19\00:56:07.10
and brings their children,
00:56:07.13\00:56:09.03
what should be our response
to them as a church family
00:56:09.06\00:56:11.80
and what about my
children, Sabbath school?
00:56:11.83\00:56:14.90
And you have like
30 seconds there, so...
00:56:14.94\00:56:18.67
Well, you know,
00:56:18.71\00:56:20.04
Jesus, the presence of
Jesus begins in the home
00:56:20.08\00:56:23.31
and what we teach
is the love of Jesus,
00:56:23.35\00:56:25.15
right, in our churches.
00:56:25.18\00:56:26.68
So if somebody is coming through
00:56:26.72\00:56:28.42
our church doors,
they might be hungry.
00:56:28.45\00:56:31.85
Let's hope that they are hungry.
00:56:31.89\00:56:33.69
And so we should be welcoming,
00:56:33.72\00:56:35.26
and we should be
welcoming in to, to anyone,
00:56:35.29\00:56:37.83
any sinner that's walking
through the church doors,
00:56:37.86\00:56:40.50
and so that the point is,
is that, in welcoming them,
00:56:40.53\00:56:44.20
we need not let the
discussion end there,
00:56:44.23\00:56:48.90
the education is that we
would reach out to people,
00:56:48.94\00:56:52.47
and help them,
listen to their stories,
00:56:52.51\00:56:54.64
find out about
them, love their children,
00:56:54.68\00:56:57.55
love one another, care for them,
00:56:57.58\00:56:59.85
but don't withhold Jesus.
00:56:59.88\00:57:04.09
Thank you.
00:57:04.12\00:57:05.45
Do you have a
closing thought, Jay?
00:57:05.49\00:57:07.79
Yeah, you know,
00:57:07.82\00:57:10.43
sometimes we really
ought to take a look
00:57:10.46\00:57:12.66
in the mirror instead
of looking at everyone else
00:57:12.69\00:57:16.23
and judging them for their sins.
00:57:16.26\00:57:19.43
You know, we
have sins of our own,
00:57:19.47\00:57:22.10
and sin is sin,
00:57:22.14\00:57:23.47
but God can give us
the victory over sin.
00:57:23.51\00:57:26.88
Christ came down
and took on human flesh
00:57:26.91\00:57:29.54
and paid the price for our sins,
00:57:29.58\00:57:31.51
so that we don't have to.
00:57:31.55\00:57:33.21
Make the choice
today, to serve Christ
00:57:33.25\00:57:36.08
before it's too late.
00:57:36.12\00:57:37.55
Thank you. Thank
you for joining me here.
00:57:37.59\00:57:39.79
I'm glad to be
here. It was great.
00:57:39.82\00:57:41.42
And thank you all so
much, please continue,
00:57:41.46\00:57:45.33
continue with the
fight, and the struggle,
00:57:45.36\00:57:47.23
I know it's hard.
00:57:47.26\00:57:48.60
I know that in several instances
00:57:48.63\00:57:50.77
you guys get cancelled,
turned away, or whatever,
00:57:50.80\00:57:55.90
but if you have an
organization, a school,
00:57:55.94\00:57:59.57
college, high school,
academy, or church, whatever,
00:57:59.61\00:58:03.95
please welcome
Coming Out Ministries.
00:58:03.98\00:58:06.61
And thank you for joining us.
00:58:06.65\00:58:08.25
Join us next time
'cause it just wouldn't be
00:58:08.28\00:58:09.95
the same without you.
00:58:09.98\00:58:11.59