Do you ever
wonder how to respond
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when you get into a conversation
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with a Jehovah's Witness
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or a member of the
Church of Latter-day Saints.
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Well, stay tuned to meet a man
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who is going to share
some tips and strategies
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that can lead them to Christ.
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My name is Yvonne Lewis.
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And I'm Jason Bradley
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello, and
welcome to Urban Report,
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I've got Jason with me.
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Hey, Jay. All right, all right.
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And we have a
special guest today.
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Our guest today
is Philip Ammons.
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For 35 years in 13 states
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across the United
States and in Canada,
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he's been an
active teacher, preacher,
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evangelist and seminar presenter
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with a focus in
Christian apologetics,
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Bible prophecy
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and hermeneutical
Biblical interpretation.
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He's preached in churches
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across various denominational
fellowships across America.
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Welcome to Urban
Report, Brother Phil.
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Thank you, Yvonne.
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Jason, good to see
you. It's good to see you.
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Phil, I've known you
for a number of years
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and for all the
time that I've known you.
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You...
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God has just gifted
you across so many lines,
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you are able to
present doctrine in a way
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that's so cogent and so
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erudite.
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I shouldn't give you all this,
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because this here
is going to blow up.
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But you have and
it's such a blessing
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because I've learned so
much over the years from you
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and I just want to
know how did you get into,
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first of all what is
Christian apologetics?
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Because some people, you
know, when you say apologetics,
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people think you're apologizing.
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Right. Because those
things... that was a mouthful.
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Yeah. Right, right.
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Hermeneutics, apologetics,
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denominations and all the stuff.
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Then there are people
who honestly believe that,
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they believe that
it has something to do
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with regretting
something that you've done.
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But when you start talking
about Christian apologetics,
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you're really talking
about defending the faith
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and typically here meaning
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something in the
historical Christian vacuum.
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We typically
dealing with doctrine,
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whether doctrine of creation
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or doctrine of some theoretical
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or theological
belief in the scriptures
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so we can really pars
down the different defenses
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that God expects
for us as Christians
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to be able to assert
in the face of people
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who seek to distort or deny
that which is biblical truth.
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So, basically
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and I know a lot of
our viewers want to know,
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like a lot of times
people come to your door
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and they'll say, can you...
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We want to, we want to
share something with you.
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We want to tell you something.
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How do you react when
people come to your door?
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Well, now there are couple,
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that's an
excellent question, Yvonne.
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There are two things here.
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Biblically speaking
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there are those
who have beliefs,
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religious beliefs that are
so destructive to Christianity
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that we are admonished by John
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in the Book of 1 John,
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2 John 1
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to not even allow
certain people into our homes.
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And so we have to be
very careful with that.
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I on the other hand
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as a layperson apologist
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love for people
to come into my home.
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Whether, whatever
their faith may be,
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unless they are of
some satanic persuasion,
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other than that they
are welcome into my home
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to discuss the scripture
so, in answer to your question,
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someone comes and
knocks on my door.
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I invite them in
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and there are
certain conclusions
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that I
automatically have in place
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when this person is at my door.
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Number one, I'm
glad that they're there
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because it lets me know
that they have a deep value
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for whatever truths
that they believe in.
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They are out in the
streets and they are working.
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They are seeking to proselytize
and share what their faith is,
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so while I may
not ultimately agree
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with their
theological positions.
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I do give them absolute
credit for being out there
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and proselytizing and
wanting to share their faith...
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Which I think if I may interject
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which I think
that's so important
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because that then starts you
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from a place of mutual respect.
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Yes.
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You respect
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even if you disagree
with their position, right?
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You're respecting the fact
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that they've even taken the time
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to come out and to talk to
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because some of our
folks aren't doing that.
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That's true. Yeah.
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Right.
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We're not, we're not,
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we're not taking
the time to go on
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from door to door
sometimes and talk to people.
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Which is sad too because I mean,
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you see some of
these dedication,
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people are
dedicated out there in suits
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and it's burning hot outside,
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they're out there in
suits and passing stuff out
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and talking to people
and everything like then,
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we need to see more of
that within our own church.
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And what does go up
boils down too, Jason,
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is what is our value of
what we regard as truth.
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If we have a
great value of truths,
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then we will be
out there sharing that.
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If we don't have a
great value for truths,
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then we don't believe
that it's important enough
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to go out and share
this with other people.
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That's pretty
indicting, you know.
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I mean, really, how
important is it to you.
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That's the ultimate question.
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How important is it to you
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that you will
take the time yourself
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to share it with someone
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even if he's not
going from door to door
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but just sharing
it with someone, so...
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Oh, go ahead, Jason.
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And do you recognize
the sense of urgency.
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Do you truly believe that
we're living in the last days?
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I mean, do you believe
that Christ is coming back soon
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because if you do,
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then like you said
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you would be
sharing that with people.
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That, Jason, and the fact
that every person that we meet
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whether he's on the street,
on the job, in the classroom,
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wherever it might be,
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we should look
at every individual
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that we meet as a candidate
for the kingdom of heaven.
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And if we look
at people that way,
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we will then have an
urge and a mission from God
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to win this soul over
to Christ for eternity.
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So there is an absolute need,
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and one of the
things about the valuation
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of what we believe is that
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if, well, there are
four things number one,
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the fact that
Christ died for truth,
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so we ought to have an
elevated value for truth.
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There are millions
during the Dark Ages,
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as many as 50 million people
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who lost their lives
because of the value of truth.
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They would not sell off truth
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because they valued it
too much and they said,
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"We will give our lives
before we give up the truth."
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So we are
sanctified thirdly by the truth
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we're told by the Apostle Paul.
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So it is truth
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that sanctifies the
church and us as individuals.
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So we must and,
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and we must have an elevated
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view of what God has
given us in the scriptures
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and nothing less
than truth will do.
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You probably know, Yvonne,
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John writes I
believe it's in 2 John 2:1,
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that no lie is of the
truth and, you know, myself
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and Florentine Cyle, my fiance,
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we do our
missionary work together.
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We go to
different churches together,
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and we fish for souls together.
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We sit down and we give
our Bible studies together.
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And so there's
this one young man
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that we're giving
Bible studies to currently,
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and he was pretty
much in the Mormon Church.
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He had one foot in
there and then we ran across
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and he began to
take Bible studies
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we've now been studying
with him for three months.
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And so now he has
completely disavowed any concept
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because we've gone
through the doctrines
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and teachings
of much of the LDS,
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and so he has
now disavowed that.
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And now he's
looking in another direction
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in terms of biblical truth.
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What was he before he met you?
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Before he met them,
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before he started
studying with them?
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Catholic. Okay.
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He was Catholic. Okay.
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And then he got,
began to study with Mormons
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and he was just about there,
he was going consistently,
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they were like a
family to him and so,
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we had our work cut out for us,
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because oftentimes
people who are in churches
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who consider their
fellow church members
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more of a family is
very difficult for them
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to objectively look
at truth for what it is,
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then make a decision on truth,
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so we knew that we had
our work cut out for us.
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But the Holy
Spirit and the Word of God
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really has convicted this man.
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He has accepted many
of the Bible doctrines
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that we've presented to him.
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He has, he's on board.
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He's been
attending church with us.
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And so his value of truth
has changed from a feeling
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about what you believe
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to actually what
does the Bible say
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about what truth is and so...
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That's such a good point,
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you know because
in this day and time,
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so many people feel as
though truth is relative
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like what is your truth?
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Yes.
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Haven't you heard that?
Yeah, that's pretty scary.
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I know, what is your
truth? What is your truth?
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My truth is well,
wait a minute now.
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What is the objective source
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upon which we base
this idea of truth?
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It certainly can't
come from inside of us.
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It has to come from
some objective source
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which for us is the Bible.
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Absolutely and this young man
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and I can just
say his name is Jose.
00:11:01.76\00:11:03.69
His name is Jose.
00:11:03.73\00:11:05.76
In our study maybe
about a month or so ago,
00:11:05.79\00:11:08.10
we were studying
a particular topic
00:11:08.13\00:11:10.17
and he made the
following statement
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and he didn't
mean any harm in this.
00:11:12.77\00:11:14.97
It was just a statement
in the course of our study
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.77
and he says to us,
Flo and myself, he says,
00:11:17.81\00:11:20.98
"Well, you know, no
church has all of the truth."
00:11:21.01\00:11:25.01
And I said, "Well,
Jose, wait a minute.
00:11:25.05\00:11:27.22
You know, think
about what you just said,
00:11:27.25\00:11:30.92
God has given us
all of the truth."
00:11:30.95\00:11:33.92
And in John 16:13,
00:11:33.96\00:11:37.06
the Bible promises
00:11:37.09\00:11:39.26
that the Holy
Spirit would lead us
00:11:39.29\00:11:41.93
not into some of the
truth or most of the truth,
00:11:41.96\00:11:44.70
but would lead us
into all of the truth,
00:11:44.73\00:11:47.24
so all of the truths
we have in the scriptures,
00:11:47.27\00:11:51.67
the Holy Spirit can
open up to our understanding,
00:11:51.71\00:11:53.88
and there are people
and there are churches
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who do have all of the truth.
00:11:58.41\00:12:01.25
There, you know, I'm thinking
00:12:01.28\00:12:02.68
one particular
church has all of the truth.
00:12:02.72\00:12:05.65
We ought to stop
being ashamed to say it.
00:12:05.69\00:12:08.66
We ought to stop being
ashamed to admit it that,
00:12:08.69\00:12:12.43
you know, and whatever
church our listeners belong to.
00:12:12.46\00:12:16.67
If you're not convinced
00:12:16.70\00:12:18.10
that your church
has all of the truths,
00:12:18.13\00:12:21.17
then you really
need to begin to reassess
00:12:21.20\00:12:23.84
and reexamine and recalibrate
00:12:23.87\00:12:26.41
where your devotions and,
00:12:26.44\00:12:28.71
and where your
affections lie theologically.
00:12:28.74\00:12:32.05
It's interesting too
00:12:32.08\00:12:33.42
because when you look
at how Satan did things,
00:12:33.45\00:12:35.78
like he would
give you some truth,
00:12:35.82\00:12:37.65
he would give you that 95 to 99%
00:12:37.69\00:12:42.06
but that one percent of
lie made the whole thing a lie.
00:12:42.09\00:12:48.33
Excellent point, Jason.
00:12:48.36\00:12:50.03
Because every error is
corrosive to the truth.
00:12:50.07\00:12:55.07
Jesus said, "I am the
Way, the Truth and the Life."
00:12:55.10\00:12:58.61
So every error, every
misstatement of truth,
00:12:58.64\00:13:01.58
every misleading concept
of what we have in the Bible
00:13:01.61\00:13:05.55
serves to separate
us and segregate us
00:13:05.58\00:13:09.02
further and further away
00:13:09.05\00:13:11.05
from him who has
declared he is the truth.
00:13:11.09\00:13:15.46
So what are some of the tenets
00:13:15.49\00:13:18.99
of the Church of Latter-day
Saints and how do they,
00:13:19.03\00:13:23.63
how is it different
from what the Bible teaches.
00:13:23.67\00:13:28.10
Let me first say
00:13:28.14\00:13:29.47
that the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints
00:13:29.50\00:13:32.41
are some of the best people
00:13:32.44\00:13:34.48
that you will run into
00:13:34.51\00:13:36.68
in terms of their
sociality, their family,
00:13:36.71\00:13:40.52
their emphasis
and value of family,
00:13:40.55\00:13:44.52
their dietary habits,
00:13:44.55\00:13:47.99
their reverence towards God,
00:13:48.02\00:13:50.43
when they go into their churches
00:13:50.46\00:13:52.46
and you see the
children and the parents,
00:13:52.49\00:13:54.70
they are dressed
00:13:54.73\00:13:56.06
as if they are
meeting to serve God
00:13:56.10\00:13:58.50
and you can't say
that about every church so,
00:13:58.53\00:14:00.97
there's some wonderful things
00:14:01.00\00:14:02.34
about all of these churches
out here that we have had,
00:14:02.37\00:14:05.67
particularly Flo and I
have had a chance to visit.
00:14:05.71\00:14:08.44
The problem comes
when we place the teachings
00:14:08.48\00:14:13.85
under the scrutiny
of the Holy Scriptures.
00:14:13.88\00:14:17.09
Then there are many problems.
00:14:17.12\00:14:20.12
We do not believe that
God was a man at one time
00:14:20.16\00:14:24.29
and then worked his way
up into his position of God,
00:14:24.33\00:14:27.36
we do not believe that.
00:14:27.40\00:14:28.80
We do not believe that Jesus
00:14:28.83\00:14:31.20
married Mary and had children.
00:14:31.23\00:14:35.34
We do not believe that.
00:14:35.37\00:14:37.44
We do not believe in priesthood
00:14:37.47\00:14:40.11
outside of Levitical Priesthood.
00:14:40.14\00:14:42.71
We don't believe that.
00:14:42.74\00:14:44.08
We don't believe that
00:14:44.11\00:14:45.45
we can be baptized
for people who have died.
00:14:45.48\00:14:48.05
We simply don't believe that.
00:14:48.08\00:14:49.88
We don't believe
that the Sabbath day
00:14:49.92\00:14:53.96
which I want to
commend many Mormons
00:14:53.99\00:14:57.59
for how they keep
their day of worship.
00:14:57.63\00:15:00.60
Unfortunately,
the Bible gives us
00:15:00.63\00:15:03.00
a different day of worship
00:15:03.03\00:15:05.17
in which to God
declares is holy.
00:15:05.20\00:15:08.87
And we should
say, they keep Sunday
00:15:08.90\00:15:11.07
and the Bible
teaches the seventh day...
00:15:11.11\00:15:12.47
And the Bible teaches
the seventh day of the week
00:15:12.51\00:15:14.24
which is the Sabbath.
00:15:14.28\00:15:15.61
We do not believe
that our communion services
00:15:15.64\00:15:18.31
which they have every week
00:15:18.35\00:15:19.91
that water is the
substitute for grape juice
00:15:19.95\00:15:24.49
that the New Testament indicates
00:15:24.52\00:15:27.19
as a figurative symbolism
00:15:27.22\00:15:31.96
of the blood of Jesus.
00:15:31.99\00:15:33.33
So we do not believe that.
00:15:33.36\00:15:35.66
And, you know, I
can go on and on and on.
00:15:35.70\00:15:39.07
There are some varied,
00:15:39.10\00:15:41.54
not only basic
theological tenets
00:15:41.57\00:15:44.87
that are out of
keeping with the scripture
00:15:44.91\00:15:47.58
but there are some
damnable teachings,
00:15:47.61\00:15:52.38
the blood atonement.
00:15:52.41\00:15:54.58
We do not believe as Christians
00:15:54.62\00:15:56.79
that there are some sins
00:15:56.82\00:15:58.22
that the blood of
Jesus cannot atone for.
00:15:58.25\00:16:01.09
Such as in their
denomination, what is,
00:16:01.12\00:16:04.33
like what are
some of the things?
00:16:04.36\00:16:05.73
One of the examples is murder.
00:16:05.76\00:16:08.46
Another example is...
00:16:08.50\00:16:12.37
You know it used to
be interracial marriage
00:16:12.40\00:16:16.07
where this was came
under the blood atonement
00:16:16.10\00:16:20.68
where you could not atone
for that sin that, that...
00:16:20.71\00:16:24.61
I'm sorry that Jesus
could not atone for that sin.
00:16:24.65\00:16:27.85
You have to atone
with your own life
00:16:27.88\00:16:30.52
for the sin of murder
00:16:30.55\00:16:32.49
or for the sin of
interracial marriage.
00:16:32.52\00:16:34.92
They put interracial
marriage on the level of murder.
00:16:34.96\00:16:37.83
Not only that but the teaching
00:16:37.86\00:16:39.73
was that it was from
Brigham Young actually,
00:16:39.76\00:16:42.76
who has a spouse
00:16:42.80\00:16:45.60
some of the
most hateful rhetoric
00:16:45.63\00:16:47.70
when it comes to race relations
anywhere in any denomination.
00:16:47.74\00:16:52.91
There's a school
named after him of course,
00:16:52.94\00:16:54.74
if you heard
Brigham Young University
00:16:54.78\00:16:58.05
and the church and I
can say this, the church,
00:16:58.08\00:17:01.05
many of the church
members are not very proud
00:17:01.08\00:17:03.62
of Brigham Young
and some of the things
00:17:03.65\00:17:05.02
he had to say
with regard to race.
00:17:05.05\00:17:07.12
But one of the
things that he said
00:17:07.16\00:17:08.49
is the only way to
atone for a black person
00:17:08.52\00:17:13.50
or an African
marrying a white person
00:17:13.53\00:17:16.53
is that the mother of
the children be killed
00:17:16.56\00:17:21.07
as well as the
children themselves.
00:17:21.10\00:17:23.37
So this comes
under the blood atonement
00:17:23.41\00:17:25.17
you can't just ask Jesus
to forgive you of this sin,
00:17:25.21\00:17:28.98
but you must go
through this blood atonement
00:17:29.01\00:17:32.25
where you yourself
must be sacrificed.
00:17:32.28\00:17:35.05
You know the issue of polygamy.
00:17:35.08\00:17:38.62
The issue of the
authority of inspiration,
00:17:38.65\00:17:41.99
whereas today you and
I, we look at the Bible,
00:17:42.02\00:17:44.39
the scriptures
as final authority
00:17:44.43\00:17:46.86
for inspired doctrine
in truth and theology.
00:17:46.90\00:17:51.53
But in the LDS Church,
any apostle, living apostle
00:17:51.57\00:17:56.27
or prophet has equal authority
00:17:56.30\00:18:00.18
as the Apostle Paul
00:18:00.21\00:18:02.04
or Moses or Isaiah
00:18:02.08\00:18:05.15
or John or Luke
00:18:05.18\00:18:07.62
or any of the other apostles
to change and to disfigure
00:18:07.65\00:18:12.15
what we have in
the Holy Scriptures.
00:18:12.19\00:18:14.22
We do not believe that,
we absolutely reject that.
00:18:14.26\00:18:17.69
We know that the scriptures
as given in the Word of God
00:18:17.73\00:18:20.63
the 66 books,
00:18:20.66\00:18:22.00
39 in the Old
Testament, 27 in the New,
00:18:22.03\00:18:25.73
these are our sacred,
00:18:25.77\00:18:27.60
holy guide that leads us
to the pathway of heaven.
00:18:27.64\00:18:31.37
Yeah.
00:18:31.41\00:18:32.74
Now, he is
preaching, doesn't he?
00:18:32.77\00:18:34.11
I know it, I'm
loving it, I'm loving it.
00:18:34.14\00:18:36.71
So, you know when, when,
00:18:36.75\00:18:39.81
when Mormons or LDS
people come to your home.
00:18:39.85\00:18:44.42
They...
00:18:44.45\00:18:45.79
I'm sure when
they come to your home,
00:18:45.82\00:18:47.16
they're not telling you
00:18:47.19\00:18:48.86
about that whole picture
of like interracial relations
00:18:48.89\00:18:53.73
for you know for a long
time blacks couldn't even be,
00:18:53.76\00:18:58.07
they couldn't even
come into the temple
00:18:58.10\00:18:59.43
from what I understand.
00:18:59.47\00:19:00.80
Or hold higher offices...
00:19:00.84\00:19:02.87
Yeah. Until 1983.
00:19:02.90\00:19:04.91
Yeah, it was
00:19:04.94\00:19:08.94
an interesting journey but,
00:19:08.98\00:19:10.51
and this is not in any way
to put down their denomination
00:19:10.55\00:19:14.85
but it's just a kind of open up
00:19:14.88\00:19:17.32
what, what they have espoused
00:19:17.35\00:19:21.16
and, and the
journey that they have,
00:19:21.19\00:19:23.46
and how it
compares with the word.
00:19:23.49\00:19:26.29
So when they come to your home
00:19:26.33\00:19:28.76
and especially yours
as an African-American,
00:19:28.80\00:19:30.67
they're not going to
be talking about that part
00:19:30.70\00:19:32.73
and I don't think they even,
00:19:32.77\00:19:34.30
some of them might
not even know about that.
00:19:34.34\00:19:37.31
Correct, Yvonne.
00:19:37.34\00:19:38.67
Right? You're absolutely right.
00:19:38.71\00:19:41.04
There are many Mormons
that we've talked about.
00:19:41.08\00:19:43.71
A lot of the doctrines
and theories and theologies
00:19:43.75\00:19:47.95
that the members have no idea.
00:19:47.98\00:19:50.32
I can tell you of
all of the missionaries
00:19:50.35\00:19:52.25
had come to my house,
00:19:52.29\00:19:53.96
they run into
problems answering questions
00:19:53.99\00:19:56.06
so they would get
a higher up to come,
00:19:56.09\00:19:58.03
he can't answer so
they get to next higher.
00:19:58.06\00:20:00.26
And they would go
four, five, six deep
00:20:00.30\00:20:03.03
and in front of us,
00:20:03.06\00:20:05.27
in front of Flo and myself
00:20:05.30\00:20:07.37
these missionaries are
confronted with doctrines
00:20:07.40\00:20:09.60
and theories
that they never knew,
00:20:09.64\00:20:11.87
no one ever told
them these things,
00:20:11.91\00:20:14.91
but one of the first
things that I look at
00:20:14.94\00:20:18.05
when an LDS
will come to my door.
00:20:18.08\00:20:20.42
The first thing
00:20:20.45\00:20:21.78
I need to
establish is authority,
00:20:21.82\00:20:23.85
and I would say this
about any group or person
00:20:23.89\00:20:27.32
that you're dealing
with that will come to you
00:20:27.36\00:20:29.42
and I say this to
all of our viewers,
00:20:29.46\00:20:31.49
the first thing
you want to establish
00:20:31.53\00:20:32.99
is what is authority.
00:20:33.03\00:20:34.46
If I have certain set of beliefs
00:20:34.50\00:20:36.90
and you have
certain set of beliefs,
00:20:36.93\00:20:38.53
what settles the argument?
00:20:38.57\00:20:40.97
Now, what settles it?
00:20:41.00\00:20:42.34
If you don't get that
right in the beginning,
00:20:42.37\00:20:45.37
you will be
going from now until,
00:20:45.41\00:20:49.71
you know, to doomsday
00:20:49.74\00:20:51.78
trying to argue as
what's right or what's wrong.
00:20:51.81\00:20:54.88
Now, in the Book of 2 Nephi,
00:20:54.92\00:20:56.65
this is in the Book of Mormon
00:20:56.69\00:20:58.52
and there are three
books that they equate
00:20:58.55\00:21:02.02
with equal
authority to the Bible.
00:21:02.06\00:21:04.33
You have the Book of Mormon,
the Pearl of Great Price,
00:21:04.36\00:21:06.83
Doctrines and Covenants,
and these books constitute,
00:21:06.86\00:21:12.13
they're inspired
writings from Joseph Smith.
00:21:12.17\00:21:15.94
So one of the first
things you have to do
00:21:15.97\00:21:18.54
is settle on
00:21:18.57\00:21:19.91
what is it that are we
going to accept as authority
00:21:19.94\00:21:22.51
to determine all of the
whatever disputes we may have,
00:21:22.54\00:21:27.75
what's going to determine
00:21:27.78\00:21:29.15
the true answer to
this in the dispute.
00:21:29.18\00:21:32.62
So in 2 Nephi, I
believe it's 29:6.
00:21:32.65\00:21:38.53
It says that there are people
00:21:38.56\00:21:42.06
who believe in the
Bible only are fools.
00:21:42.10\00:21:46.97
So Joseph Smith believes
00:21:47.00\00:21:50.37
and in the Book of 2 Nephi
00:21:50.41\00:21:52.21
and there are some other
books within the Book of Mormon,
00:21:52.24\00:21:54.91
that if all you believe
in is the Holy Scriptures,
00:21:54.94\00:21:58.21
then you are a fool,
that you are misguided.
00:21:58.25\00:22:02.02
Now they won't tell you this
00:22:02.05\00:22:03.39
when they come through the door,
00:22:03.42\00:22:05.55
but you go through, you know,
00:22:05.59\00:22:07.12
you do your
research and you kind of know
00:22:07.16\00:22:08.96
where things are and,
00:22:08.99\00:22:11.56
but what you have
to get them to do,
00:22:11.59\00:22:13.56
and sometimes they
will be willing to do this
00:22:13.60\00:22:15.76
and sometimes they won't.
00:22:15.80\00:22:17.13
Particularly missionaries
or typically younger
00:22:17.17\00:22:20.30
and you say to them,
00:22:20.34\00:22:22.07
well, you might
believe in the Book of Mormon
00:22:22.10\00:22:24.31
the Doctrine and
Covenants, Pearl of Great Price,
00:22:24.34\00:22:28.24
but I only believe
in the Holy Scriptures.
00:22:28.28\00:22:30.88
And I think that if we're going
to get anywhere down the line,
00:22:30.91\00:22:33.98
we need to accept the Bible,
00:22:34.02\00:22:35.42
we need to get
truth from the Bible,
00:22:35.45\00:22:37.52
and then if you can
convince me on down the line
00:22:37.55\00:22:40.92
that Joseph Smith
was a true prophet
00:22:40.96\00:22:43.43
or whatever, then we can
deal with that at that point,
00:22:43.46\00:22:45.76
but for now let's
just stick with the Bible.
00:22:45.79\00:22:48.30
If you can do that, Jason,
00:22:48.33\00:22:50.37
if you can localize
00:22:50.40\00:22:52.57
what is a source of
proof and stick to that,
00:22:52.60\00:22:57.97
then you will be a long way
00:22:58.01\00:23:00.54
in trying to lead the discussion
00:23:00.58\00:23:04.98
in a profitable way
00:23:05.01\00:23:06.48
that of course leads us
back to what God has said.
00:23:06.51\00:23:09.98
Otherwise it's just
being on in circles.
00:23:10.02\00:23:11.52
In circles, you
do that for years.
00:23:11.55\00:23:14.49
So the first thing
that you need to do
00:23:14.52\00:23:16.79
when they come,
00:23:16.83\00:23:18.16
when once the
discussion has begun
00:23:18.19\00:23:20.50
is to establish that the
Bible is going to be the basis,
00:23:20.53\00:23:25.30
the foundation
for your conversation.
00:23:25.33\00:23:28.07
Let them know that
you're willing to discuss.
00:23:28.10\00:23:30.97
And again, I want to
let our viewers know.
00:23:31.01\00:23:35.38
I do not recommend that you do
00:23:35.41\00:23:38.35
what I do or what
Flo and I will do.
00:23:38.38\00:23:43.28
Most of us are not prepared
to go into other churches
00:23:43.32\00:23:48.16
or deal with people of
great theological background
00:23:48.19\00:23:52.63
with lots of letters,
00:23:52.66\00:23:55.20
what that will result in
00:23:55.23\00:23:57.43
is you yourself
might get to a set up,
00:23:57.47\00:24:00.70
so we don't recommend that.
00:24:00.74\00:24:03.04
I do that simply
because of the background
00:24:03.07\00:24:06.01
that the Holy
Spirit has given to me
00:24:06.04\00:24:08.04
in terms of
Christian apologetics.
00:24:08.08\00:24:10.15
And there are a
lot of our viewers
00:24:10.18\00:24:11.88
who perhaps have
gone to theological school
00:24:11.91\00:24:14.68
and so you have a basis,
00:24:14.72\00:24:17.72
maybe you've done
research and papers
00:24:17.75\00:24:19.65
and maybe books or periodicals,
00:24:19.69\00:24:22.32
and so, yes, you're
prepared to do that.
00:24:22.36\00:24:24.59
I simply would not advise
00:24:24.63\00:24:28.46
that everyone go
into the lions' den
00:24:28.50\00:24:31.70
so to speak and do what we do.
00:24:31.73\00:24:33.94
What I would recommend
00:24:33.97\00:24:36.34
is that we are prepared enough
00:24:36.37\00:24:38.44
with our
knowledge in the Scriptures.
00:24:38.47\00:24:40.88
So that like Paul says,
00:24:40.91\00:24:42.91
"We can earnestly
contend for the faith."
00:24:42.94\00:24:46.72
And this is what the
Bible says in Jude 3,
00:24:46.75\00:24:49.38
that we earnestly
contend for the faith.
00:24:49.42\00:24:51.69
Paul says, "I am set for
the defense of the gospel."
00:24:51.72\00:24:54.52
So we need to defend, we
need to earnestly contain.
00:24:54.56\00:24:58.46
We need to be prepared to
enter into these discussions
00:24:58.49\00:25:00.93
with people of various faiths
00:25:00.96\00:25:03.70
to defend the
truthfulness of this book
00:25:03.73\00:25:07.04
that we call the Bible.
00:25:07.07\00:25:08.44
Now, somebody might say
00:25:08.47\00:25:10.51
in kind of a bumper
sticker fashion that well,
00:25:10.54\00:25:13.48
the Bible
doesn't need defending.
00:25:13.51\00:25:15.94
I disagree with you.
00:25:15.98\00:25:17.95
If for no other reason
Paul says that it does.
00:25:17.98\00:25:21.72
That we must earnestly contend,
00:25:21.75\00:25:23.59
that we must stand in defense
of the Bible so when I'm...
00:25:23.62\00:25:26.42
when you're dealing
00:25:26.45\00:25:27.79
with someone of
a different faith,
00:25:27.82\00:25:30.33
you first...
00:25:30.36\00:25:31.69
The first rule is to
decide what is authority?
00:25:31.73\00:25:36.77
And once you
decide what is authority,
00:25:36.80\00:25:39.17
then everyone is
locked into an agreement
00:25:39.20\00:25:42.04
that you can't
go outside of this,
00:25:42.07\00:25:43.97
that we agree that this is what
00:25:44.01\00:25:46.11
is going to decide these issues.
00:25:46.14\00:25:47.51
Right, right okay,
00:25:47.54\00:25:48.88
so that's the first step
00:25:48.91\00:25:50.55
determining that the
Bible is the foundation.
00:25:50.58\00:25:53.31
What do you do next?
00:25:53.35\00:25:54.95
The second thing that you
do is to try as far as possible
00:25:54.98\00:25:59.39
to deal with things
which are in mutual agreement.
00:25:59.42\00:26:04.39
Things that you, that
both of you can agree on,
00:26:04.43\00:26:07.60
the things that
you may have in common,
00:26:07.63\00:26:10.03
whether it's
Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:26:10.07\00:26:11.43
There are some
things that all of us
00:26:11.47\00:26:13.03
have in common with
Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:26:13.07\00:26:14.97
There's a lot we don't,
00:26:15.00\00:26:16.67
but there are
some things that we do.
00:26:16.71\00:26:18.11
With LDS there are some
things that we hold in common.
00:26:18.14\00:26:20.58
I mentioned some of them earlier
00:26:20.61\00:26:22.71
or whether a
Lutheran or Baptist.
00:26:22.74\00:26:25.05
You'd be surprised
the people that Flo
00:26:25.08\00:26:28.42
and I have
talked to, the churches
00:26:28.45\00:26:30.35
that we've been to fishing
00:26:30.39\00:26:32.35
for souls in the
conversations that we've had,
00:26:32.39\00:26:34.66
how for years
we've had denominations,
00:26:34.69\00:26:37.83
people of various denominations
00:26:37.86\00:26:40.03
coming into our home
00:26:40.06\00:26:41.46
or, you know, into my home
and they come over once a week
00:26:41.50\00:26:45.67
and then we're all
there for months and months
00:26:45.70\00:26:47.90
and months, months and months.
00:26:47.94\00:26:49.27
So once we establish
what is, what is authority?
00:26:49.30\00:26:52.34
The next thing
we do is try to see
00:26:52.37\00:26:55.18
what are the
points of agreement?
00:26:55.21\00:26:57.18
What is that we can
agree on, that we can,
00:26:57.21\00:27:00.45
you know, not battle about.
00:27:00.48\00:27:02.32
You don't want to start out,
00:27:02.35\00:27:04.29
whether it
shows what is the LDS,
00:27:04.32\00:27:06.22
you don't want to start out
00:27:06.25\00:27:07.59
with World War
II in your studies.
00:27:07.62\00:27:09.09
Right.
00:27:09.12\00:27:10.46
Let's talk about
00:27:10.49\00:27:11.83
what the
scripture says in the Bible.
00:27:11.86\00:27:14.33
What the blood of Jesus
has meant to you and me,
00:27:14.36\00:27:17.57
and how it is a
life transformative
00:27:17.60\00:27:20.44
experience for us
00:27:20.47\00:27:22.04
to know Jesus
as personal savior.
00:27:22.07\00:27:24.07
See, we can talk
about those things
00:27:24.11\00:27:25.44
and we can go to scriptures,
00:27:25.47\00:27:27.94
you know, and
deal with these things.
00:27:27.98\00:27:29.54
So the second thing and
answer to your question,
00:27:29.58\00:27:32.28
a long answer
to a short question
00:27:32.31\00:27:34.32
is talk about things
that you have agreement on.
00:27:34.35\00:27:37.15
Yes, see that's really good
00:27:37.19\00:27:38.52
because what you're doing
00:27:38.55\00:27:39.95
is you are not starting
from an adversarial place,
00:27:39.99\00:27:45.49
but you're starting
from a place of commonality
00:27:45.53\00:27:47.93
so that, you
can again establish,
00:27:47.96\00:27:51.07
okay, this is
what we both believe.
00:27:51.10\00:27:53.94
We believe this
because this is scriptural,
00:27:53.97\00:27:57.01
so you're actually reinforcing
00:27:57.04\00:27:59.17
what the scripture says
00:27:59.21\00:28:00.54
before you go into
what's the difference.
00:28:00.58\00:28:03.81
Like a theological icebreaker.
00:28:03.85\00:28:05.85
Yeah, exactly,
exactly. Exactly, Jason.
00:28:05.88\00:28:08.92
When we look at the life
of Jesus in his ministry,
00:28:08.95\00:28:13.49
how many fights did he start?
00:28:13.52\00:28:15.89
He didn't start very many.
00:28:15.92\00:28:17.43
What he looked for was
needs in the other person,
00:28:17.46\00:28:22.73
and so what I look for
when someone comes to my door,
00:28:22.76\00:28:26.67
they have a need.
00:28:26.70\00:28:28.30
We know that the ultimate need
is they want to drag me down
00:28:28.34\00:28:31.07
to their house of
worship and baptize me,
00:28:31.11\00:28:33.81
we understand that,
00:28:33.84\00:28:35.18
I know that's their
bid, all the need is,
00:28:35.21\00:28:37.58
but in our
conversations there are needs
00:28:37.61\00:28:40.48
that you can cue in on,
00:28:40.52\00:28:42.72
that's what they
would like to hear.
00:28:42.75\00:28:44.55
And in many cases I give
them what they want to hear
00:28:44.59\00:28:47.29
so long as it's
consistent with my beliefs.
00:28:47.32\00:28:50.26
So if it's a Mormon, if
it's a Jehovah's Witness
00:28:50.29\00:28:52.83
or Baptist or Lutheran
or Catholic, whatever it is,
00:28:52.86\00:28:57.13
there are things and this
goes to the my second point of
00:28:57.17\00:29:00.90
certainly you want to talk
about things you can agree on.
00:29:00.94\00:29:05.47
But you also want
to look for openings
00:29:05.51\00:29:07.91
in terms of what people believe.
00:29:07.94\00:29:09.61
Keep in mind
that there is reason
00:29:09.64\00:29:11.11
why they are at your door.
00:29:11.15\00:29:12.61
And they want
to continue to come
00:29:12.65\00:29:16.38
because they will then be
able go back to their churches
00:29:16.42\00:29:19.82
and report that
they met Philip Ammons
00:29:19.85\00:29:22.82
and this guy seems interested
in what they are believing.
00:29:22.86\00:29:26.03
So we want to keep
going back to his house
00:29:26.06\00:29:28.16
because he's
opened his door to us
00:29:28.20\00:29:30.37
and we can have
these discussions,
00:29:30.40\00:29:32.70
so by all means I
want to play into that,
00:29:32.73\00:29:35.80
and there are times
where I play pretty dumb.
00:29:35.84\00:29:39.24
Now, some of my
friends might say
00:29:39.27\00:29:40.78
there's not a whole
lot of play work with that,
00:29:40.81\00:29:43.45
but the fact is
00:29:43.48\00:29:45.48
that in some of my
initial meetings with people,
00:29:45.51\00:29:50.39
I will, I will play
is as almost as dumb
00:29:50.42\00:29:53.76
as they want in
terms of, in terms of
00:29:53.79\00:29:58.53
leading them to believe
00:29:58.56\00:30:01.16
that I am open to
what they have to offer.
00:30:01.20\00:30:05.43
I know that they
will then keep coming back
00:30:05.47\00:30:08.54
and, and that's what I want
for them to keep coming back.
00:30:08.57\00:30:12.01
And as they keep coming back,
00:30:12.04\00:30:13.88
I begin to
present things to them
00:30:13.91\00:30:16.68
that either they did not know
00:30:16.71\00:30:19.11
or they have a very
difficult time with.
00:30:19.15\00:30:21.25
I was...
00:30:21.28\00:30:22.62
Flo and I were sitting
with Jehovah's Witnesses
00:30:22.65\00:30:25.22
not very long
ago in my living room
00:30:25.25\00:30:28.22
and we were going over John 1,
00:30:28.26\00:30:31.99
"In the beginning was the
Word, in the Word was with God,
00:30:32.03\00:30:33.83
and the Word was God."
00:30:33.86\00:30:35.20
And of course they
have a problem with that
00:30:35.23\00:30:36.93
and they
translate the word was God,
00:30:36.97\00:30:39.13
they translate that as a God.
00:30:39.17\00:30:41.97
I won't go into all of
the Greek structures to why,
00:30:42.00\00:30:44.67
but that's the
ultimate translation.
00:30:44.71\00:30:47.38
So my question to them then,
00:30:47.41\00:30:49.68
I said, well, now wait a minute,
00:30:49.71\00:30:51.05
if Jesus is merely a God,
00:30:51.08\00:30:54.38
then we go to John 17
00:30:54.42\00:30:56.72
and Jesus says of God the Father
00:30:56.75\00:30:59.05
that he is the only God
00:30:59.09\00:31:01.29
and outside of
him there is no God,
00:31:01.32\00:31:04.33
then how could Jesus be a God,
00:31:04.36\00:31:07.03
because if God is the
only God and that makes.
00:31:07.06\00:31:10.43
I'm sorry, in John
17, Jesus says of God,
00:31:10.47\00:31:13.87
"You are the only true God."
00:31:13.90\00:31:16.24
So then if Jesus is a God
00:31:16.27\00:31:19.21
and God the Father
is the only true God,
00:31:19.24\00:31:22.24
then that makes
Jesus a false God.
00:31:22.28\00:31:24.15
So how do you
explain that to me I ask,
00:31:24.18\00:31:27.42
and there was no
explanation coming
00:31:27.45\00:31:29.65
other than we'll
find the answer to you...
00:31:29.68\00:31:32.45
for you.
00:31:32.49\00:31:34.42
Joseph Smith in 1821
00:31:34.46\00:31:38.19
or thereabout depending on
00:31:38.23\00:31:39.66
what you read from 1821, 1823
00:31:39.69\00:31:43.50
has this experience
00:31:43.53\00:31:47.54
where God the Father
00:31:47.57\00:31:49.54
and the Son appears
to him in his bedroom.
00:31:49.57\00:31:53.17
Now again, depending on
which Mormon story you read,
00:31:53.21\00:31:57.41
some stories will say this
happened out in the wilderness,
00:31:57.45\00:32:00.42
others say that no, it
happened in his bedroom
00:32:00.45\00:32:03.89
but whichever the
fact is that he says,
00:32:03.92\00:32:07.42
he saw God the
Father and God the Son.
00:32:07.46\00:32:09.86
So then I ask the missionaries
00:32:09.89\00:32:14.40
I said, now wait a minute,
00:32:14.43\00:32:16.70
in at least three
different passages of the Bible,
00:32:16.73\00:32:21.20
the Bible says,
00:32:21.24\00:32:22.57
"No man have
seen God at any time."
00:32:22.60\00:32:25.87
So how do you explain this?
00:32:25.91\00:32:27.78
And then I think
the initial offering
00:32:27.81\00:32:30.48
which is very weak was, well,
00:32:30.51\00:32:34.08
you know maybe no Godhead...
00:32:34.12\00:32:35.62
No one had seen God
at any time at that point
00:32:35.65\00:32:38.89
and I said,
"Well, that's not true,"
00:32:38.92\00:32:40.36
because you go
back to Exodus 33:20
00:32:40.39\00:32:43.63
and God says, that no man can,
00:32:43.66\00:32:46.59
in other words there is not the,
00:32:46.63\00:32:47.96
the ability for man to see
God the Father at any time.
00:32:48.00\00:32:51.97
So people then
00:32:52.00\00:32:55.00
and I will
briefly just say to you
00:32:55.04\00:32:58.34
how these things play
out for me and for Flo.
00:32:58.37\00:33:03.88
They come over to the house,
00:33:03.91\00:33:06.21
we have a very nice one
or two or three sessions.
00:33:06.25\00:33:10.75
Then we begin to raise
very difficult questions,
00:33:10.79\00:33:14.52
then they take notes and say
that they will get back to us,
00:33:14.56\00:33:18.09
then these
questions begin to amass
00:33:18.13\00:33:23.87
until it gets to the point
00:33:23.90\00:33:25.23
where they are
unmanageable to where,
00:33:25.27\00:33:27.24
you know, we're
now 20, 23 questions in
00:33:27.27\00:33:29.54
and you've got,
00:33:29.57\00:33:30.91
now I got back to us
about question number one.
00:33:30.94\00:33:33.81
Then they will
go and get someone
00:33:33.84\00:33:35.38
from the Kingdom Hall
00:33:35.41\00:33:36.98
or someone from the church
00:33:37.01\00:33:38.68
who is supposed to know
much better and they will come.
00:33:38.71\00:33:42.12
Then that person
gets stuck in the mud.
00:33:42.15\00:33:44.32
Then there's a
second person that comes
00:33:44.35\00:33:46.76
who's supposed to
be higher than him
00:33:46.79\00:33:48.72
and we've gone all
the way up the chain
00:33:48.76\00:33:51.13
in terms of in many
cases with Jehovah's Witnesses
00:33:51.16\00:33:54.83
and with Mormons,
00:33:54.86\00:33:57.10
we've had state leaders
sitting in my living room,
00:33:57.13\00:34:00.94
they're trying to explain things
00:34:00.97\00:34:03.00
in front of the
missionaries and the Mormons,
00:34:03.04\00:34:06.78
in front of the missionaries
00:34:06.81\00:34:08.21
things had completely fall apart
00:34:08.24\00:34:10.41
and then we resort to e-mails,
00:34:10.45\00:34:12.01
long e-mails
going back and forth.
00:34:12.05\00:34:14.15
So what I'm trying
to say in a nutshell
00:34:14.18\00:34:17.05
is for our viewers
don't get frustrated
00:34:17.09\00:34:21.12
with this, with the process,
00:34:21.16\00:34:22.49
you gonna have to go
through give and take,
00:34:22.52\00:34:24.79
there's going to be some
very long laborious e-mails
00:34:24.83\00:34:30.80
and discussions going on,
00:34:30.83\00:34:32.50
but hang in there with it
00:34:32.53\00:34:34.70
because the Lord may not bring
these people in right away,
00:34:34.74\00:34:38.77
but at some point
00:34:38.81\00:34:40.58
they will be brought
to a point of decision
00:34:40.61\00:34:43.98
and the Holy Spirit will
bring back to their memory
00:34:44.01\00:34:46.68
many things that you
have implanted within them,
00:34:46.72\00:34:49.45
so patience is a key.
00:34:49.48\00:34:50.92
Right, I think what
you're doing is you are...
00:34:50.95\00:34:54.92
you and Flo are
planting the seeds.
00:34:54.96\00:34:57.33
Even if they don't make
the decision right then,
00:34:57.36\00:35:01.76
that those questions
00:35:01.80\00:35:03.13
are going to be
in their heads...
00:35:03.16\00:35:04.50
Right. Well, what about this.
00:35:04.53\00:35:05.87
Well, the Book of
Mormon teaches that
00:35:05.90\00:35:08.64
or the Jehovah's
Witnesses have their own Bible
00:35:08.67\00:35:11.91
I think because,
because basically
00:35:11.94\00:35:13.78
what you're saying
00:35:13.81\00:35:15.14
is these things are transferable
00:35:15.18\00:35:16.95
from denomination
to denomination...
00:35:16.98\00:35:18.31
It is.
00:35:18.35\00:35:19.68
Because these points of finding
00:35:19.71\00:35:23.25
first of all not
being confrontational
00:35:23.28\00:35:25.42
when you first start,
00:35:25.45\00:35:26.79
then finding
areas of commonality
00:35:26.82\00:35:29.72
and then opening up,
00:35:29.76\00:35:32.79
planting the seeds,
00:35:32.83\00:35:34.50
all of that transfers
00:35:34.53\00:35:35.93
across the
denomination lines, correct.
00:35:35.96\00:35:38.40
So if you do that,
00:35:38.43\00:35:41.20
as you do that first
of all the Holy Spirit
00:35:41.24\00:35:44.01
if you have prayed
00:35:44.04\00:35:45.37
the Holy Spirit
00:35:45.41\00:35:46.74
is going to guide
that conversation...
00:35:46.78\00:35:48.48
Absolutely.
00:35:48.51\00:35:49.84
So that you're not
just out there by yourself.
00:35:49.88\00:35:52.55
Absolutely.
00:35:52.58\00:35:53.92
So that's one
thing, and then, secondly,
00:35:53.95\00:35:55.95
you have to equip yourself,
00:35:55.98\00:35:58.52
you can't just go in
there and as you were saying,
00:35:58.55\00:36:01.46
you know, you
can't just go in there
00:36:01.49\00:36:03.59
and, and try to
have this conversation
00:36:03.63\00:36:05.69
without having
studied, you need to study.
00:36:05.73\00:36:08.40
And I think this
is an important thing.
00:36:08.43\00:36:10.27
The Bible of course says
00:36:10.30\00:36:11.63
that we were to study to show
ourselves approved unto God.
00:36:11.67\00:36:14.20
Workman that
needeth not to be ashamed,
00:36:14.24\00:36:15.77
rightly dividing
the word of truth.
00:36:15.80\00:36:17.51
So if we study for ourselves
00:36:17.54\00:36:21.01
then we can,
00:36:21.04\00:36:22.68
the Holy Spirit's job
00:36:22.71\00:36:24.05
is to bring back
to our remembrance
00:36:24.08\00:36:25.48
that which we study.
00:36:25.51\00:36:26.85
Absolutely.
00:36:26.88\00:36:28.22
And it can bring
back to your remembrance
00:36:28.25\00:36:29.58
that which you didn't study...
00:36:29.62\00:36:30.95
That which you didn't study...
That which you didn't study.
00:36:30.99\00:36:32.32
Exactly.
00:36:32.35\00:36:33.69
Oh...
00:36:33.72\00:36:35.06
How do you go
about talking to someone
00:36:35.09\00:36:36.42
who doesn't
believe in God at all
00:36:36.46\00:36:38.69
or who doesn't
believe in the God
00:36:38.73\00:36:41.63
that we believe in,
00:36:41.66\00:36:43.00
they might believe in Allah
or one of these other ones.
00:36:43.03\00:36:46.70
Excellent question, Jason,
00:36:46.74\00:36:48.07
and this is as well
a part of apologetics.
00:36:48.10\00:36:51.47
The existence of God
and you talk to people,
00:36:51.51\00:36:56.11
and oftentimes
when I talk to people
00:36:56.14\00:36:58.58
who don't believe in any God.
00:36:58.61\00:37:00.35
It really is a
step by step process.
00:37:00.38\00:37:05.35
What I tend to do
00:37:05.39\00:37:06.72
is I try to appeal
on the basis of logic
00:37:06.76\00:37:09.79
that, you know, where
did the world come from?
00:37:09.82\00:37:13.06
Where did the
universe come from?
00:37:13.09\00:37:14.96
How do we get where we are.
00:37:15.00\00:37:16.70
How is it that we have
00:37:16.73\00:37:18.13
such complexity 600
muscles in the human eye?
00:37:18.17\00:37:21.50
Are you really saying
that, that's by accident?
00:37:21.54\00:37:24.91
What about first cause,
where everything come from?
00:37:24.94\00:37:27.94
The first law of
thermodynamics tells us,
00:37:27.98\00:37:31.21
that nothing is
created or disappears
00:37:31.25\00:37:36.95
but energy merely changes form.
00:37:36.99\00:37:39.85
Well, if that's the case
00:37:39.89\00:37:41.56
then at what point do we have
the first elements of matter.
00:37:41.59\00:37:46.63
You say, well
there was an explosion
00:37:46.66\00:37:49.60
and then and then that's
how we got the earth, okay.
00:37:49.63\00:37:52.70
Well, then where did the matter
come from for the explosion,
00:37:52.73\00:37:56.50
and then the science,
00:37:56.54\00:37:57.87
the school of
evolutionary science
00:37:57.91\00:38:00.31
used to say,
00:38:00.34\00:38:01.68
well, it was a bunch of gases
00:38:01.71\00:38:03.31
that created the solid matter
00:38:03.35\00:38:05.91
which then led
to the explosions.
00:38:05.95\00:38:08.32
Well, then now the question
is where did the gas come from?
00:38:08.35\00:38:10.62
Yeah.
00:38:10.65\00:38:11.99
And so, and so now you will find
00:38:12.02\00:38:14.76
that in the most
critical areas of science
00:38:14.79\00:38:20.66
that many scientists,
00:38:20.70\00:38:22.03
evolutionists now are saying
00:38:22.06\00:38:25.13
that we have to
concede that at some point
00:38:25.17\00:38:28.50
there was some
creation of something.
00:38:28.54\00:38:30.71
In fact, they will
use the term creation
00:38:30.74\00:38:33.17
but not in the same sense
00:38:33.21\00:38:34.61
as the Christian
uses the term creation.
00:38:34.64\00:38:37.35
But they will
concede that at some point
00:38:37.38\00:38:40.32
there was nothing and
then there was something,
00:38:40.35\00:38:42.45
so this is a,
00:38:42.48\00:38:43.82
this is a huge
departure scientifically
00:38:43.85\00:38:47.22
from what we were looking
at for many, many centuries
00:38:47.26\00:38:49.66
before all the way up to 1970s.
00:38:49.69\00:38:52.33
And so you have to start in
dealing with someone like that.
00:38:52.36\00:38:55.80
You know and then if
you're dealing with a person,
00:38:55.83\00:38:57.90
just common
person in the street,
00:38:57.93\00:38:59.63
there are things you can use
that just make logical sense.
00:38:59.67\00:39:02.40
For instance and
I make this quick,
00:39:02.44\00:39:04.21
I know we're running
out of time that, you know,
00:39:04.24\00:39:06.81
to assume that we
have this big explosion,
00:39:06.84\00:39:09.94
and as a result of that
00:39:09.98\00:39:11.31
we have all of
this complexity is like
00:39:11.35\00:39:13.31
saying that you take a bomb,
00:39:13.35\00:39:15.05
an atom bomb and
you detonate a house
00:39:15.08\00:39:19.05
and the house goes
into a million pieces
00:39:19.09\00:39:21.62
and then all of a
million pieces come back
00:39:21.66\00:39:24.16
perfectly in
the form of a house.
00:39:24.19\00:39:26.56
You know, what's the
likelihood of that...
00:39:26.59\00:39:27.96
Right.
00:39:28.00\00:39:29.73
And of course, we know
that these kinds of things
00:39:29.76\00:39:32.50
certainly are not likely.
00:39:32.53\00:39:33.87
And so when you
look at the universe,
00:39:33.90\00:39:35.24
when you look at nature,
00:39:35.27\00:39:36.60
when you look at
all of the things
00:39:36.64\00:39:37.97
that God has
provided for us as proof
00:39:38.01\00:39:39.91
that there is a
higher intelligence
00:39:39.94\00:39:42.44
then one really has to fight
against the natural inclination
00:39:42.48\00:39:48.35
that there is an intelligent
design to the universe.
00:39:48.38\00:39:50.49
Absolutely.
00:39:50.52\00:39:51.85
And one thing that
really gets under my skin is
00:39:51.89\00:39:54.26
when people worship the created
as opposed to the creator.
00:39:54.29\00:39:56.56
Yes.
00:39:56.59\00:39:57.93
You know people say, "Oh,
put it into the universe."
00:39:57.96\00:39:59.56
Who do you think
created the universe?
00:39:59.59\00:40:01.06
Absolutely.
00:40:01.10\00:40:02.53
Why would you go to the
created and not the creator.
00:40:02.56\00:40:06.80
Jason, you're
preaching the gospel,
00:40:06.84\00:40:09.24
I was with a young lady
we had just come out of,
00:40:09.27\00:40:13.04
we were on a
break, we were in trial.
00:40:13.07\00:40:16.24
That's what I do, you
know, most in my paid life.
00:40:16.28\00:40:19.81
You know I mean
the legal profession.
00:40:19.85\00:40:21.72
And so we were at lunch
with our client and she...
00:40:21.75\00:40:25.79
We cross the
street at this high rise
00:40:25.82\00:40:27.59
and she got up some...
00:40:27.62\00:40:30.96
I forget the meal that she got.
00:40:30.99\00:40:33.56
It was a meat,
00:40:33.60\00:40:36.30
it was not a vegetarian meal
00:40:36.33\00:40:37.67
and so she bowed
her head and prayed
00:40:37.70\00:40:39.43
and then when she was done
00:40:39.47\00:40:41.10
she was oh, she
says, "I was just praying
00:40:41.14\00:40:44.54
to the cow that
provided the meat
00:40:44.57\00:40:47.58
thanking them for my meal."
00:40:47.61\00:40:49.61
What? Wow.
00:40:49.64\00:40:51.11
And when you're in a
place like Seattle now,
00:40:51.15\00:40:53.72
we're here in the Northwest
00:40:53.75\00:40:55.38
where that may be
kind of odd in many parts,
00:40:55.42\00:40:58.22
but when you're in
places like the Northwest,
00:40:58.25\00:41:00.42
like Seattle, this
is very, very normal.
00:41:00.46\00:41:02.96
Really?
00:41:02.99\00:41:04.33
Praying to the
cow so the dead cow
00:41:04.36\00:41:07.76
that she's getting ready to eat,
00:41:07.80\00:41:09.16
she's praying to the cow.
00:41:09.20\00:41:10.97
For providing the meal.
00:41:11.00\00:41:12.33
For providing the...
00:41:12.37\00:41:14.14
Okay, yeah,
00:41:14.17\00:41:16.10
that's a different
way of looking at things.
00:41:16.14\00:41:18.84
Well, you know for me,
you know, it was, you know,
00:41:18.87\00:41:22.04
it was very
challenging to, you know,
00:41:22.08\00:41:23.81
keep a straight face.
00:41:23.85\00:41:25.18
Yeah.
00:41:25.21\00:41:26.55
But there are people that
have all kinds of beliefs and,
00:41:26.58\00:41:30.15
you know, we
have to grant hit that
00:41:30.19\00:41:33.49
what they believe
they sincerely believe,
00:41:33.52\00:41:36.29
and then what Jesus did,
00:41:36.32\00:41:38.29
he lead them from
the known to the unknown,
00:41:38.33\00:41:41.13
and so what you and I have to do
00:41:41.16\00:41:43.67
when we're running
across people of whatever
00:41:43.70\00:41:46.23
beliefs tribe is we have
to lead them from the known
00:41:46.27\00:41:49.74
and we have to lead them
step by step to the known.
00:41:49.77\00:41:52.47
And that's a...
00:41:52.51\00:41:54.98
Wait from the known to the...
00:41:55.01\00:41:56.95
from the unknown to the known
00:41:56.98\00:41:58.31
or from the
known to the unknown?
00:41:58.35\00:41:59.98
We lead them from
the known to the unknown.
00:42:00.02\00:42:01.65
For instance when Jesus
told parables about the farmers
00:42:01.68\00:42:06.76
and about the seed that
was known to the people.
00:42:06.79\00:42:09.62
They knew how the
farmer would spread seeds,
00:42:09.66\00:42:13.19
but with that known he
led them to the unknown.
00:42:13.23\00:42:15.96
That's what I
liked about Christ too,
00:42:16.00\00:42:18.27
is like when he preached,
00:42:18.30\00:42:19.63
he found something
that people could relate...
00:42:19.67\00:42:21.00
Yes.
00:42:21.04\00:42:22.37
He could draw lessons
from what they already know
00:42:22.40\00:42:25.51
and teach them what the message
00:42:25.54\00:42:28.54
he wanted to convey.
00:42:28.58\00:42:29.91
Can I tell you a very
quickly, Jason, on that point.
00:42:29.94\00:42:33.85
This is few years ago,
00:42:33.88\00:42:35.22
but we went to a house
and we knocked on the door
00:42:35.25\00:42:39.35
and we could hear
the television blaring,
00:42:39.39\00:42:42.66
it was Saturday afternoon,
00:42:42.69\00:42:44.36
big college
football game and finally,
00:42:44.39\00:42:48.90
you know, and they
knew we were at the door.
00:42:48.93\00:42:50.47
They just didn't want to answer.
00:42:50.50\00:42:51.83
But finally the
man comes to the door.
00:42:51.87\00:42:53.57
You know, what do you want.
00:42:53.60\00:42:55.20
And we knew that they
were watching the football game
00:42:55.24\00:42:59.84
and the man said to us,
00:42:59.87\00:43:01.31
"Look, you guys
got to have to hurry
00:43:01.34\00:43:02.68
because this big
game fourth quarter."
00:43:02.71\00:43:05.35
And what we said was,
00:43:05.38\00:43:08.55
"Sir, do you realize that
we are in the fourth quarter
00:43:08.58\00:43:13.42
of the history of the world
00:43:13.46\00:43:15.56
and you and I need to
have our attention focused
00:43:15.59\00:43:19.63
on eternal life like
we've never had before."
00:43:19.66\00:43:22.23
Do you know that this gentleman
00:43:22.26\00:43:24.00
who I was able to
deal with the known
00:43:24.03\00:43:26.94
to the unknown
said, "Come in, come in."
00:43:26.97\00:43:30.97
He said, you know
00:43:31.01\00:43:32.34
that we don't watch
the last few minutes
00:43:32.37\00:43:33.71
but I want to hear
what you have to say
00:43:33.74\00:43:35.08
and through that we started
a series of Bible studies.
00:43:35.11\00:43:37.71
We had
colporteurs go to the house.
00:43:37.75\00:43:39.55
So you have to in
just about every case
00:43:39.58\00:43:43.79
looking at the ministry of Jesus
00:43:43.82\00:43:45.49
start with what is known
00:43:45.52\00:43:47.29
to the person that
you're dealing with,
00:43:47.32\00:43:49.36
and then lead
them to the unknown.
00:43:49.39\00:43:50.99
I love that,
that's, that's great
00:43:51.03\00:43:53.43
because that you're starting
at a place of mutuality,
00:43:53.46\00:43:58.07
something they can relate to
00:43:58.10\00:43:59.43
and then you take
them to the next step.
00:43:59.47\00:44:01.04
But you have to build
from one place to the next,
00:44:01.07\00:44:04.64
you can't take
them all the way here
00:44:04.67\00:44:07.21
without starting at point A.
00:44:07.24\00:44:09.31
So again if a Jehovah's
Witness comes to your door,
00:44:09.34\00:44:15.32
and I know one of their beliefs
00:44:15.35\00:44:17.35
that they don't
believe in the Trinity.
00:44:17.39\00:44:18.82
Correct.
00:44:18.85\00:44:20.19
And so, what do you...
00:44:20.22\00:44:23.93
what do you say to them
00:44:23.96\00:44:26.19
because they
have their own Bible.
00:44:26.23\00:44:27.70
Yeah.
00:44:27.73\00:44:29.06
And I guess the Mormons do too,
00:44:29.10\00:44:30.77
they have the Book of
Mormon and all that, so...
00:44:30.80\00:44:32.13
Right.
00:44:32.17\00:44:33.50
What do you say to
a Jehovah's Witness
00:44:33.54\00:44:36.10
that is saying to you
that Jesus wasn't divine
00:44:36.14\00:44:41.34
that there was no
Trinity, that kind of thing?
00:44:41.38\00:44:43.18
Right.
00:44:43.21\00:44:45.78
There are so many
different ways to approach this.
00:44:45.81\00:44:51.25
If you don't mind,
00:44:51.29\00:44:52.62
I'll just borrow from
my most recent experience.
00:44:52.65\00:44:54.26
Please, please, that's great.
00:44:54.29\00:44:56.19
Where, you know,
00:44:56.22\00:44:57.56
they're coming to
the house every week.
00:44:57.59\00:44:58.93
So this is all,
this always becomes
00:44:58.96\00:45:02.20
a cornerstone issue
with Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:45:02.23\00:45:05.20
It is the deity or
the divinity of Christ
00:45:05.23\00:45:08.30
where they feel
that Christ was created.
00:45:08.34\00:45:10.51
Now, one has to
be careful in that,
00:45:10.54\00:45:16.78
there are some of us
00:45:16.81\00:45:18.15
who are able to
go into the Greek
00:45:18.18\00:45:21.08
to an extent the
Hebrew, the biblical languages,
00:45:21.12\00:45:24.65
the history of biblical
manuscripts, autographs,
00:45:24.69\00:45:27.92
and so we're able to
talk at a certain level
00:45:27.96\00:45:32.19
that hopefully
they will understand
00:45:32.23\00:45:35.06
and will see the
handwriting on the wall.
00:45:35.10\00:45:37.40
Not everyone can do it.
00:45:37.43\00:45:38.77
Not all of your viewers
going to be able to do that.
00:45:38.80\00:45:40.47
But you know with the,
00:45:40.50\00:45:41.84
with the Hebrew
Greek key study Bible
00:45:41.87\00:45:43.64
and stuff like that.
00:45:43.67\00:45:45.01
If you dig...
00:45:45.04\00:45:46.37
Yeah, if you dig...
00:45:46.41\00:45:47.74
You can, you can, you
know, use some of that.
00:45:47.78\00:45:49.68
Yeah, you can use some of that.
00:45:49.71\00:45:51.28
You know but
Greek is tough stuff.
00:45:51.31\00:45:52.65
Oh, yeah.
00:45:52.68\00:45:54.02
I have to take a
lot of quarters of Greek
00:45:54.05\00:45:55.72
when I was a little
kid. I never did Greek.
00:45:55.75\00:45:57.19
Thank God for like the...
00:45:57.22\00:45:58.95
Thank God for the Bibles
that have like the Greek word
00:45:58.99\00:46:01.96
and then the
English and stuff like that
00:46:01.99\00:46:03.66
because there is no way.
00:46:03.69\00:46:05.03
Absolutely. But go ahead.
00:46:05.06\00:46:06.39
But so here's your
ways to approach that.
00:46:06.43\00:46:09.20
There are so many
powerful proofs in the scripture
00:46:09.23\00:46:14.24
that support the
divinity of Jesus.
00:46:14.27\00:46:17.27
We start with, you
know, John 1:1 through...
00:46:17.31\00:46:21.08
"In the beginning was
word, the word was with God,
00:46:21.11\00:46:23.18
and the word was God."
00:46:23.21\00:46:24.81
The word was God.
00:46:24.85\00:46:27.85
John 5:17,
00:46:27.88\00:46:29.62
where Jesus talks about the fact
00:46:29.65\00:46:31.05
that I am my father,
00:46:31.09\00:46:33.59
I work and my Father work,
00:46:33.62\00:46:35.82
and this is a form of the Greek
there is a form of equality
00:46:35.86\00:46:40.96
that he puts himself on
equality with the Father.
00:46:41.00\00:46:44.90
It's called a coordinating
conjunction in the Greek
00:46:44.93\00:46:48.17
which means that my Father works
00:46:48.20\00:46:49.74
and I who is equal to
my Father work as well.
00:46:49.77\00:46:53.04
And this is why in
the very next verse,
00:46:53.07\00:46:54.71
in verse 18 the Jews
pick up stones to stone him
00:46:54.74\00:46:58.45
because he was
making himself equal to God.
00:46:58.48\00:47:01.68
John 8:58
00:47:01.72\00:47:04.79
before Abraham was I am.
00:47:04.82\00:47:07.72
This is the same
structure that's in Exodus 3:14,
00:47:07.76\00:47:12.96
where he tells Moses, tell them,
00:47:12.99\00:47:14.40
"I am sent
thee, I am that I am."
00:47:14.43\00:47:17.33
So he puts himself
on equality with God.
00:47:17.37\00:47:21.84
In the Book of
Genesis, Genesis 1 talks about,
00:47:21.87\00:47:25.31
"In the beginning God
created heaven and the earth."
00:47:25.34\00:47:27.18
Well, the word God
there is the word Elohim,
00:47:27.21\00:47:30.05
which is the plural majesties.
00:47:30.08\00:47:31.85
L is singular Hebrew for God,
00:47:31.88\00:47:34.48
but Elohim which
appears over 2,600 times
00:47:34.52\00:47:37.75
in the Hebrew Old Testament
is for plural majesties well,
00:47:37.79\00:47:41.29
who could beat
the plural majesties.
00:47:41.32\00:47:44.06
Well, in Chapter 1:26, he says,
00:47:44.09\00:47:47.53
"Let us make man in our
image, after our likeness."
00:47:47.56\00:47:51.40
And so we know
that Jesus is the one
00:47:51.43\00:47:53.74
who created all things
00:47:53.77\00:47:55.27
and we know this from John 1
00:47:55.30\00:47:56.77
and other passages
in the New Testament
00:47:56.81\00:47:58.41
that he's a creator.
00:47:58.44\00:47:59.77
So Jesus was there.
00:47:59.81\00:48:01.14
We know that from Genesis 1:2
that the Holy Spirit was there,
00:48:01.18\00:48:05.28
that the Spirit of God moved
upon the face of the waters.
00:48:05.31\00:48:07.92
So these plural majesties
00:48:07.95\00:48:09.65
as we see in Elohim
in the Old Testament
00:48:09.68\00:48:12.45
is none other than Jesus Christ
00:48:12.49\00:48:15.22
the Holy Spirit, God the Father,
00:48:15.26\00:48:16.89
and we see the
unity throughout scripture
00:48:16.93\00:48:19.76
of all three of these,
00:48:19.79\00:48:22.26
and again the
amount of scripture
00:48:22.30\00:48:24.70
is just overwhelming.
00:48:24.73\00:48:26.33
And you know when Jehovah's
Witness come to my house,
00:48:26.37\00:48:29.54
I mean there's no
reason why after, you know,
00:48:29.57\00:48:31.47
three or four
months they gave up,
00:48:31.51\00:48:32.84
don't come and said,
00:48:32.87\00:48:34.21
"We're not coming back."
00:48:34.24\00:48:35.68
But the thing is
that what you look for
00:48:35.71\00:48:38.88
when you study with
people like Jehovah's Witness,
00:48:38.91\00:48:42.08
LDS or Lutheran or Baptist
00:48:42.12\00:48:45.12
or whatever the case may be.
00:48:45.15\00:48:46.79
Here's what you look for
00:48:46.82\00:48:48.62
because not
everyone is going to just
00:48:48.66\00:48:50.66
follow you to the
baptismal pool right away.
00:48:50.69\00:48:53.09
Now we've got some people,
00:48:53.13\00:48:55.26
Flo and I that
we have made friends
00:48:55.30\00:48:56.93
with at these
different churches.
00:48:56.97\00:48:58.53
We're relying on
those friendships
00:48:58.57\00:49:00.24
to ultimately
yield fruit for the Lord
00:49:00.27\00:49:03.04
in terms of baptism.
00:49:03.07\00:49:04.57
But what you look for is where
00:49:04.61\00:49:06.34
people come to a
point in your discussion
00:49:06.37\00:49:09.51
that they have no answers.
00:49:09.54\00:49:11.91
They have no answers
to what you're saying.
00:49:11.95\00:49:16.08
You know where Jesus
00:49:16.12\00:49:17.89
or the prophecy the Old or New
Testament are making statements
00:49:21.49\00:49:24.43
that absolutely contradicts
what their beliefs are,
00:49:24.46\00:49:28.53
and I feel bad for
people sitting in front of me
00:49:28.56\00:49:31.80
who believe in their pastors,
00:49:31.83\00:49:34.04
they believe in their churches,
00:49:34.07\00:49:35.40
they believe in their
Sunday school teachers,
00:49:35.44\00:49:37.11
and they are now confronted
00:49:37.14\00:49:38.74
with
irreconcilable contradictions
00:49:38.77\00:49:42.08
between what they've been taught
00:49:42.11\00:49:43.45
and what the Bible says.
00:49:43.48\00:49:44.81
And my heart goes out to them
00:49:44.85\00:49:46.72
because I imagine how
I would feel, you see.
00:49:46.75\00:49:49.75
And so, but you
present them with it,
00:49:49.78\00:49:51.45
so the thing
that you look for is
00:49:51.49\00:49:53.49
where they have no answers,
00:49:53.52\00:49:54.86
where they're constantly
telling you, well, you know,
00:49:54.89\00:49:57.19
we were going to
have to go back and study,
00:49:57.23\00:49:59.73
deal with our pastor whatever
00:49:59.76\00:50:01.23
and come back and
bring answers to you.
00:50:01.26\00:50:03.10
And then they
never come back they,
00:50:03.13\00:50:04.87
they always want
to change the subject
00:50:04.90\00:50:06.74
to something else
00:50:06.77\00:50:08.10
and so and then the
other, I'll make this quick.
00:50:08.14\00:50:11.44
And the other thing
that you look for is
00:50:11.47\00:50:14.34
for a weakening
in their position
00:50:14.38\00:50:17.91
to where do I have
time for a quick story?
00:50:17.95\00:50:22.28
I was going to ask
you to give us the example
00:50:22.32\00:50:24.59
of what you're t telling.
00:50:24.62\00:50:25.95
Okay, here's an example.
00:50:25.99\00:50:28.56
This happened, this is
a couple of months ago,
00:50:28.59\00:50:30.16
we're sitting down Flo and I
00:50:30.19\00:50:31.86
with Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:50:31.89\00:50:33.60
No, I'm sorry, we
were in the Kingdom Hall
00:50:33.63\00:50:35.86
and they have what's
called the Watchtower
00:50:35.90\00:50:38.43
which is the first
part of the Bible teaching,
00:50:38.47\00:50:40.57
but they're like
their Sunday school
00:50:40.60\00:50:42.14
and then they have
the worship part, so...
00:50:42.17\00:50:44.71
Oh, the Watchtower is
the same as the periodical
00:50:44.74\00:50:46.24
that they give out?
00:50:46.27\00:50:47.61
Absolutely. Okay.
00:50:47.64\00:50:48.98
Same as a periodical.
00:50:49.01\00:50:50.35
So the first part is
called the Watchtower
00:50:50.38\00:50:52.08
and so you go and
it's a Watchtower magazine
00:50:52.11\00:50:55.08
that they study
from so for this period.
00:50:55.12\00:50:58.49
So I was reading there
00:50:58.52\00:51:00.79
and they were
discussing the fact
00:51:00.82\00:51:02.79
that Christendom in
Jehovah's Witnesses lingo
00:51:02.82\00:51:07.43
Christian term
is a very bad term.
00:51:07.46\00:51:09.46
So if they say, hey,
you're in Christendom, don't,
00:51:09.50\00:51:12.27
please don't say thank you.
00:51:12.30\00:51:13.64
It's an insult to you.
00:51:13.67\00:51:16.10
And so, so they were saying
how the fact that Christians,
00:51:16.14\00:51:21.68
that Christians are associated
with the United Nations
00:51:21.71\00:51:25.71
and they are linked and
leagued with the United Nations
00:51:25.75\00:51:28.98
proves how awful Christendom is.
00:51:29.02\00:51:33.02
Well, while I'm sitting there,
00:51:33.05\00:51:35.19
I pulled out my iPhone
and I did a little research
00:51:35.22\00:51:40.43
and I found that in 1992,
00:51:40.46\00:51:43.47
the Jehovah's
Witnesses had joined themselves
00:51:43.50\00:51:46.20
to the United Nations.
00:51:46.23\00:51:49.07
Now here is the,
here is the problem that
00:51:49.10\00:51:51.27
this presented to the people
00:51:51.31\00:51:53.01
that we were studying
with because after this,
00:51:53.04\00:51:55.88
the service we would go to
their house for our studies.
00:51:55.91\00:51:59.85
And so I asked them about this
00:51:59.88\00:52:01.22
and said you know in
the Watchtower today,
00:52:01.25\00:52:05.45
it talked about Christendom
being wicked and evil
00:52:05.49\00:52:08.42
because they are so
shaded with the United Nations.
00:52:08.46\00:52:11.03
I said, but I discovered
00:52:11.06\00:52:14.73
that the Jehovah's Witnesses
church was actually associated
00:52:14.76\00:52:19.57
and joined a subset of
the United Nations in 1992.
00:52:19.60\00:52:25.34
I said, so how do you
say this about Christendom.
00:52:25.37\00:52:28.94
And you don't point
the finger at yourself
00:52:28.98\00:52:31.95
as a church denomination
00:52:31.98\00:52:33.98
for having this
spiritual failure.
00:52:34.02\00:52:35.58
How do you account for that?
00:52:35.62\00:52:38.32
And the immediate response
was we've not seen that before
00:52:38.35\00:52:43.96
and we frankly
don't believe that.
00:52:43.99\00:52:46.49
And so I pulled out my
phone and it was right,
00:52:46.53\00:52:49.66
all of the
documents and everything were.
00:52:49.70\00:52:51.13
In fact, for the next study,
00:52:51.17\00:52:53.54
I actually printed
out a bunch of stuff
00:52:53.57\00:52:55.74
scanned and
emailed to them in advance.
00:52:55.77\00:52:58.84
They have all of the
paperwork it's, it's all there.
00:52:58.87\00:53:01.81
So when people are confronted
with things like this,
00:53:01.84\00:53:04.81
so ultimately what did they say?
00:53:04.85\00:53:07.68
Ultimately, they
said, "Well, you know,
00:53:07.72\00:53:10.92
human beings make mistakes
00:53:10.95\00:53:12.29
and we're not saying
that our church is perfect.
00:53:12.32\00:53:14.16
Our church makes..."
00:53:14.19\00:53:15.52
Now before is our
church would never do that
00:53:15.56\00:53:17.76
you know it's
in their Watchtower
00:53:17.79\00:53:19.79
that the
Christendom is wicked and evil
00:53:19.83\00:53:22.00
because of this, we
would never do that, never.
00:53:22.03\00:53:25.00
And so when you have this, this,
00:53:25.03\00:53:27.04
this ha-ha moment and so now,
00:53:27.07\00:53:29.44
they have to
concede that this is unfair.
00:53:29.47\00:53:32.07
So the second thing
that you look for is
00:53:32.11\00:53:35.18
after you look for where
00:53:35.21\00:53:36.91
they don't have
answers to things
00:53:36.95\00:53:38.71
is you look for retreat,
00:53:38.75\00:53:41.12
and so here is
an instance in 1992,
00:53:41.15\00:53:44.29
instance of Jehovah's witnesses
00:53:44.32\00:53:45.69
actually joining
the United Nations
00:53:45.72\00:53:47.79
where you have
a point of retreat
00:53:47.82\00:53:50.03
where we've got to retreat now,
00:53:50.06\00:53:51.56
we're caught with our
hands on the cookie jar
00:53:51.59\00:53:54.00
and so now we have
to retreat, we got it
00:53:54.03\00:53:55.96
and so now we're
just going to say that,
00:53:56.00\00:53:57.97
well, human beings make mistakes
00:53:58.00\00:53:59.60
and our leaders are
not perfect and yeah,
00:53:59.63\00:54:02.24
you know, that kind of thing.
00:54:02.27\00:54:03.71
One of the
things that I found is
00:54:03.74\00:54:06.54
because I had a
really good friend
00:54:06.57\00:54:08.98
that was Jehovah's Witnesses
00:54:09.01\00:54:10.35
and she and I
used to talk a lot,
00:54:10.38\00:54:12.35
and then other
times I meet people
00:54:12.38\00:54:15.48
that were Jehovah's
Witnesses and we would talk,
00:54:15.52\00:54:18.22
and one of the things
that I realize is that
00:54:18.25\00:54:20.49
they have certain proof texts
00:54:20.52\00:54:23.53
that they will go to
like sometimes we do,
00:54:23.56\00:54:26.66
but if you don't know more
than just those proof texts,
00:54:26.70\00:54:31.77
that's not going to be enough
00:54:31.80\00:54:33.13
because that's one text
00:54:33.17\00:54:34.50
where we might
be able to give ten
00:54:34.54\00:54:37.11
that really contradict or
put that in a different context.
00:54:37.14\00:54:42.84
It's taken out of context.
00:54:42.88\00:54:45.18
And so one important thing
to do I think with them too
00:54:45.21\00:54:50.65
is to think about,
00:54:50.69\00:54:53.36
like look at
what they're saying,
00:54:53.39\00:54:54.86
look at what the
word is saying, take it,
00:54:54.89\00:54:57.43
don't just use a proof text
00:54:57.46\00:55:00.53
but have several texts
that substantiate your position
00:55:00.56\00:55:04.80
because a lot of times
00:55:04.83\00:55:06.43
they're just taught certain
texts for certain things...
00:55:06.47\00:55:09.64
Right. And then that's it.
00:55:09.67\00:55:11.11
And they're locked
in. And they're locked in.
00:55:11.14\00:55:12.84
You're absolutely right, Yvonne,
00:55:12.87\00:55:14.21
you raised an
excellent question...
00:55:14.24\00:55:15.58
an excellent point
00:55:15.61\00:55:17.68
and one that I probably omitted,
00:55:17.71\00:55:20.32
could have stuck in earlier.
00:55:20.35\00:55:23.49
Whenever you're dealing with
someone of a different faith,
00:55:23.52\00:55:27.26
you want to...
00:55:27.29\00:55:29.72
Once you
establish what authority is,
00:55:29.76\00:55:32.59
you want to lock
them into their position.
00:55:32.63\00:55:36.80
This is what we do in court.
00:55:36.83\00:55:39.10
You get a witness
on the witness stand
00:55:39.13\00:55:41.47
whether an expert
witness or fact witness,
00:55:41.50\00:55:43.94
you lock them
into their testimony.
00:55:43.97\00:55:46.37
And then you
come later with proof
00:55:46.41\00:55:49.31
that what they have
testified to is wrong,
00:55:49.34\00:55:52.18
it's incorrect, it's inaccurate.
00:55:52.21\00:55:54.42
So whenever you're
dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses
00:55:54.45\00:55:57.09
or an LDS or a
Baptist or Lutheran
00:55:57.12\00:56:00.19
or Catholic or whatever it is,
00:56:00.22\00:56:01.79
lock them into what
their position is say lip...
00:56:01.82\00:56:04.89
Can you give me
an example? Please.
00:56:04.93\00:56:06.70
Here's a...
00:56:06.73\00:56:08.06
We got one minute
though I can't believe it.
00:56:08.10\00:56:10.07
Okay. Give a quick example.
00:56:10.10\00:56:11.80
We're dealing with
Jehovah's Witnesses
00:56:11.83\00:56:13.57
and they do not believe
that the earth will burn.
00:56:13.60\00:56:16.77
They do not believe in the word
00:56:16.81\00:56:18.14
that the world
will burn by fire.
00:56:18.17\00:56:20.21
So I took them to 2 Peter 3,
00:56:20.24\00:56:23.04
there is one
word for burn in there
00:56:23.08\00:56:25.88
that actually means to loosen.
00:56:25.91\00:56:27.68
It means to loosen,
00:56:27.72\00:56:29.05
doesn't mean the
fire kind of a burn,
00:56:29.08\00:56:30.55
but it means to
loosen, so in looking at this,
00:56:30.59\00:56:33.36
I wanted to lock, I said,
00:56:33.39\00:56:34.72
I want you to just be
clear what you're saying
00:56:34.76\00:56:36.62
that in all of the
scripture from Genesis,
00:56:36.66\00:56:38.66
Revelation you're saying
00:56:38.69\00:56:40.10
that God will not
destroy the world by fire,
00:56:40.13\00:56:42.33
and he said, no,
00:56:42.36\00:56:43.70
why would God
ever destroy the world,
00:56:43.73\00:56:45.07
he would never do that.
00:56:45.10\00:56:46.43
Now of course,
00:56:46.47\00:56:47.80
we don't have time
to get into the flood
00:56:47.84\00:56:49.17
which I brought up,
00:56:49.20\00:56:50.54
but the other thing is actually
read the rest of 2 Peter 3,
00:56:50.57\00:56:54.58
clearly it's
talking about fire burning,
00:56:54.61\00:56:58.08
the elements
melting with fervent heat.
00:56:58.11\00:57:00.68
It is a clear and
cogent statement about God
00:57:00.72\00:57:05.79
that the world will
be burned up by fire,
00:57:05.82\00:57:08.06
but I had to lock
them into that position
00:57:08.09\00:57:10.76
so that they
could not later move.
00:57:10.79\00:57:12.13
Right.
00:57:12.16\00:57:13.50
All of this was good stuff.
00:57:13.53\00:57:14.86
Wasn't that
good, Jay? Very, very.
00:57:14.90\00:57:16.23
Thank you so much.
00:57:16.26\00:57:17.60
I don't know
where our time went.
00:57:17.63\00:57:18.97
Our time is gone.
Pleasure is mine, Yvonne.
00:57:19.00\00:57:20.44
Thank you so much.
Jason, pleasure is mine.
00:57:20.47\00:57:23.37
So good to be here.
00:57:23.41\00:57:24.74
Do you have a way for
people to reach your website
00:57:24.77\00:57:27.98
or e-mail or something?
00:57:28.01\00:57:29.54
They can just go to
00:57:29.58\00:57:30.91
philip.ammons@comcast.net.
00:57:30.95\00:57:37.55
philip.ammons@comcast.net
00:57:37.59\00:57:41.52
and Philip is
spelled with one L.
00:57:41.56\00:57:43.49
One L.
00:57:43.53\00:57:44.86
Ammons with two M's.
00:57:44.89\00:57:46.23
Okay, and then so
people can write you
00:57:46.26\00:57:49.56
and maybe invite
you to their church.
00:57:49.60\00:57:50.93
Absolutely.
00:57:50.97\00:57:52.30
I love to do it. Thank you.
00:57:52.33\00:57:53.67
Thank you so much
and thank you, Jay.
00:57:53.70\00:57:55.47
It was so good.
00:57:55.50\00:57:56.84
And thank you for joining us.
00:57:56.87\00:57:58.61
Join us next time
because you know what?
00:57:58.64\00:58:00.64
It just wouldn't be
the same without you.
00:58:00.68\00:58:03.35