Have you ever wondered just
what goes through a wife's mind
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when her husband tells
her that he was once gay?
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Well, stay tuned to
meet the husband and wife
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that experienced
God's healing power
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my name is Yvonne
Lewis and I'm Jason Bradley
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and you're
watching Urban Report.
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Hello and
welcome to Urban Report.
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Our guests today are
Ron and Claudia Woolsey.
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Ron is Pastor of the
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Marshall and Clinton
Seventh-day Adventist Churches
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and Claudia is his
lovely wife of 23 years.
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Welcome to Urban Report
Pastor Ron and Claudia... yeah.
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Ron: Thank you.
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It's so good to
have you here, you know,
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Pastor Ron, we...
you're no stranger...
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we know you...
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you're no
stranger to Dare to Dream,
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you are... you and your team
from 'Coming Out' Ministries
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is doing a whole
Season's worth of programming
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on Pure Choices and we so
appreciate you and your team
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and you approached me
about something not too long ago
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and I thought,
"Man, what a great idea
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to bring Claudia on and
to talk about her perspective
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on this journey... this
journey that you've had"
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so, some of our folks
might not be familiar with you
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so I'd like to start with you...
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kind of get an
overview of your journey
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and then bring
Sister Claudia in.
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Okay, well...
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I was raised as a Christian
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and I was a very
spiritual young person.
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I went through Christian Schools
as a Seventh-day Adventist,
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I was a Student
Missionary for a couple of years
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after I was in the
Military, I went back to college
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and majored in
Theology and Pre-Med,
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my desire was to be
a Medical Missionary
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and during that time, I
married and we had children
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but I had been struggling
with my identity since childhood
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and not a living soul
knew that I had this confusion
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but I had been sexually molested
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by a farm hand when
I was four-years old
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and it totally
derailed me in my thinking
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but I never told a
living soul what happened,
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so this thing just festered
in my mind... all those years
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until I was just out of control
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and I thought that
marriage would be the solution
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to my issues but I
warn young people today
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that marriage is not
the solution to any problem,
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it can be the
beginning of woes in fact...
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if you're not
married for the right reasons
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to the right person
and with God's blessing
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and I soon realized that I
had made a terrible mistake
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to marry a young lady
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who was planning on being a
pastor's wife or missionary wife
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for the rest of her life
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and I knew that I was going
to be a terrible disappointment
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to her not long
after we were married
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but our marriage lasted
for two-and-a-half years
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during that time,
we had two children
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and then, I was just
overwhelmed with my confusion,
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my frustration,
my tendencies and...
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I felt that God was
not answering my prayers
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to take the "gay"
away, I was one of those
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who felt that God
should be able to take it away.
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And did she know... did
your wife at the time...
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did she have any idea
that this was a struggle?
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Not a clue, no one...
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not a living person knew
that I had this struggle.
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Although I was
repeatedly victimized...
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molested during grade
school and other times
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but it was always so private
and I would not tell anyone.
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So, I ended up relying...
I broke up our marriage
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in great
frustration, I gave up on God,
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I gave up on family, I
just... finally just accepted
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my fate... you
know, who wouldn't want...
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I thought that I
was just born to be...
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and went into the gay life.
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Did the media play any role
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in your decision to
walk away from the marriage
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and to just immerse
yourself into that lifestyle?
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No, the media did not because
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I was not very
much involved in media,
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I was a very spiritual person.
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It was the... I think
the... the molestation
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that... in other words...
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I was sexualized
at a very young age
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before I was
equipped to even understand
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or deal with sexuality
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so by the time I was old enough
to know about birds and bees,
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I had ten years of...
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I had started on
the wrong direction.
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And at that time it wasn't
as "socially acceptable" either.
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Oh, it wasn't
socially acceptable at all.
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I didn't know a
living person who was gay.
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I just felt...
something was terribly wrong
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and I didn't know how to deal
with it and how to cope with it,
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so, you know, I was
struggling all alone
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with no
resources, no one to talk to,
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the church wasn't
talking about the issue,
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I was just overwhelmed...
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just totally overwhelmed
until I just gave up.
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Hmmm... hmmm... and so,
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at what point
did you meet Claudia?
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Well, I met Claudia
when she was in Grade School
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and I was in High School,
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so I wasn't interested in
that kind of a relationship
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because she was a
friend of my sister's,
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both of my sisters who
brought their girlfriends around
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to meet their
brothers in high school,
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but, I was in the
9th Grade... see...
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and she was in the 8th Grade,
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I mean, that's
two different worlds.
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Grade School and
High School, so that's...
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Well, see, that
makes it a little...
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that closes the
gap a little bit though
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you say, 9th Grade and 8th Grade
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I was thinking like, maybe like,
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maybe 10th and maybe
7th or something like that.
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But it was still Grade
School and High School,
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see, a big difference.
Yvonne: Right, right.
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Jason: You felt like
you were robbing the cradle?
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Well, no, I wasn't
interested, you know,
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because I was in
High School, see...
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a Freshman in High School,
yeah, I'd arrived, see...
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So you met Claudia but
you guys weren't talking
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as boyfriend and girlfriend
or anything like that,
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you were doing
your High School thing.
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What did you think
when you met Ron, Claudia?
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Well, his friends and I...
sorry, his sisters and I...
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were friends... as he said
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so I would go hang
out at their house,
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being with his sisters
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and his sisters
just happened to have
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these really cute
brothers, you know
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and so, that's just how
we started being friends,
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and then we ended up going
to the same Boarding Academy
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and he was
surprised when I showed up
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because he went in
the summer, ahead of time
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and then, later I showed up
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and he couldn't quite
figure out why I was there,
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and during those
years at Academy together,
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we were just good friends.
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And what kind of
family did you grow up in?
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I had a wonderful family and
I had parents who were so loving
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and so supportive of
everything I ever did,
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they were
well-grounded spiritually
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we lived... they made the
decision to move to the country
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when I was just six-years old
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and so we grew
up on a dairy farm
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and we were there together
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doing all the
things you do on a farm,
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my parents were
just always there for me
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and I think that
was the one thing
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that has lasted
throughout my life,
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I could always
depend on my parents
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and it has given
me great security
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that's the word is...
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when you have
security in your childhood,
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it just... it
gives you something
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that you can't explain, really.
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Yvonne: That's true.
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It's something that
you can always count on
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and because of that, I have an
accurate picture of God as well.
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Yvonne: Hmmm...
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My parents never
failed me, in my opinion,
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they weren't perfect,
that's not what I mean,
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but they never
turned away from me
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no matter what I
did, right or wrong
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and so, that gave me
a sense of who God was.
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Hmmm... hmmm...
where did you grow up?
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In the Madison, Tennessee area.
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Okay, all right, so
you're a Tennessee girl?
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Claudia: Yes, I am.
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Jason: It's probably
not that far from here.
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Yvonne: Yes, true,
true. Claudia: Probably not.
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So, you grew up in a
very stable environment
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and you felt very
secure in your upbringing,
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Ron, were your parents...
what were they like, again?
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My parents were
Christians and they were very
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sacrificial Christians in
putting all six of us children
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through parochial
schools, private schools
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and church schools
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and my father
also was a dairy man...
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a dairy farmer...
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but my dad was a
"child... raising children"
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he was married
when he was seventeen...
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a father when he was eighteen
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and he was totally
unequipped to be a parent
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so he had... was
very lacking in that area
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though, he...
years later we realized
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how much he really loved
his family and his children,
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he was a very devoted husband
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and very much loved
all of his children.
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So, the two of you had...
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you both came
from intact families...
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Both of you had
father and mother
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but Ron, you dealt
with the molestation
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from when you were
four all throughout your
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High School life too?
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Not High School...
it was in Grade School
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but the other factor was
my... my father did become
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very emotionally
abusive towards me because I...
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in growing up,
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having been
traumatized at the age of 4...
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I developed a
bed-wetting problem
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which they didn't understand,
they thought I was being lazy,
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and my dad not
knowing... no one knew why
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but I think it was a
physical manifestation
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of an emotional issue
and so he became very abusive
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towards me trying to shame
me, this was his confession...
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I mean, he was
weeping when he broke down
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and just begged
me to forgive him
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for trying to shame
me into overcoming that
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but that drove
a wedge between us
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and so I grew up
feeling alienated,
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unloved, unaccepted,
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unapproved of... by my father
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and that was
another very strong factor
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that pushed me towards
the gender that was accepting
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when I found a
man who did appreciate
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and did show
affection and so forth...
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I was just a... very
vulnerable for that...
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I was a very easy victim.
00:11:05.96\00:11:07.36
Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:11:07.40\00:11:08.73
so at what point did you
two connect romantically?
00:11:08.76\00:11:12.73
Thirty years later...
00:11:12.77\00:11:15.90
Yvonne: Wow!
00:11:15.94\00:11:19.67
While we were in Academy,
00:11:19.71\00:11:21.11
he had special friendships
with several of my girlfriends
00:11:21.14\00:11:25.75
who were... you
know... my... not a roommate
00:11:25.78\00:11:29.02
but they were just
very close classmates,
00:11:29.05\00:11:32.25
and so he had
friendships with them
00:11:32.29\00:11:35.52
and we just were good buddies,
00:11:35.56\00:11:38.19
we spent a lot of time eating at
the same table in the cafeteria
00:11:38.23\00:11:42.73
you know and things like that
00:11:42.76\00:11:44.23
and we always
enjoyed each other's
00:11:44.27\00:11:46.94
conversation
and... and so forth...
00:11:46.97\00:11:49.64
but there was never any romantic
issue at all... with us.
00:11:49.67\00:11:53.44
Yvonne: Hmmm...
hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:11:53.48\00:11:55.11
And so it was... 30 years later
00:11:55.14\00:11:58.08
that after I went through
a very devastating divorce,
00:11:58.11\00:12:04.52
I was married for 19
years to someone else
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and had one child at that point
00:12:06.99\00:12:09.26
and that marriage
ended and I went through
00:12:09.29\00:12:14.06
the first real trauma
in my life at that point.
00:12:14.10\00:12:16.93
I didn't think I'd make
it, it was extremely painful
00:12:16.97\00:12:22.04
and yet, today, I can be
friends with my ex-husband
00:12:22.07\00:12:27.48
and we worked to make a
good family... stable...
00:12:27.51\00:12:32.85
as stable as we
could at that point
00:12:32.88\00:12:34.52
for our son... and so I learned
a lot through that experience.
00:12:34.58\00:12:39.02
Yvonne: What did you learn?
00:12:39.05\00:12:40.39
I learned that many things
in life are simply choices.
00:12:40.42\00:12:45.03
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:12:45.06\00:12:47.23
Just because
something tragic happens to you,
00:12:47.26\00:12:51.00
doesn't mean
there's a certain outcome
00:12:51.03\00:12:53.13
that has to happen
00:12:53.17\00:12:54.67
and so, as I worked
my way through this...
00:12:54.70\00:12:57.94
and I grieved extremely,
everyone who knew me just
00:12:57.97\00:13:00.98
couldn't believe how hard I
was grieving over all of this
00:13:01.01\00:13:05.08
and I realized
that part of it was...
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.42
I felt like I had failed
00:13:07.45\00:13:09.72
because I had the
Christian background,
00:13:09.75\00:13:13.32
I had the understanding
and so much information about
00:13:13.36\00:13:16.52
what a good
marriage was supposed to be
00:13:16.56\00:13:17.99
but still it had failed...
00:13:18.06\00:13:19.79
but you know, when
someone else decides
00:13:19.83\00:13:22.20
to walk away...
you can't stop them
00:13:22.23\00:13:24.53
because they have
their choices to make.
00:13:24.57\00:13:29.90
And so, the pain was
extremely hard for me
00:13:29.94\00:13:34.84
and I did go through a very
strong struggle at that point
00:13:34.88\00:13:39.75
with my relationship with
God as well as with other people
00:13:39.81\00:13:44.62
and so forth and
it caused me to doubt
00:13:44.65\00:13:46.82
and it was the first
time I really had to look
00:13:46.86\00:13:48.92
at what I was all
about. Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:13:48.96\00:13:51.73
And so, I did tremendous amount
of reading during that time,
00:13:51.76\00:13:55.96
I did a lot of studying and I
decided... after all of this...
00:13:56.00\00:14:00.17
that I was not going to
spend the rest of my life
00:14:00.20\00:14:03.37
being miserable and unhappy,
00:14:03.41\00:14:05.61
I knew a lot of friends
who have gone through divorces
00:14:05.64\00:14:08.14
and they just hated
each other and so...
00:14:08.18\00:14:11.71
that feeling of rejection just
continued on and on and on...
00:14:11.78\00:14:16.28
and they... they... it just
00:14:16.32\00:14:17.92
flavored
everything in their lives
00:14:17.95\00:14:20.26
and I decided...
I was not going to
00:14:20.29\00:14:22.36
spend the rest
of my life that way.
00:14:22.39\00:14:24.53
Did you have a
strong support system?
00:14:24.56\00:14:26.66
I did because I had my parents,
00:14:26.70\00:14:28.63
we were right
there in that same area
00:14:28.66\00:14:30.80
and so I had them
00:14:30.83\00:14:32.23
and I wouldn't have been
able to make it without them
00:14:32.27\00:14:35.50
and they were such
a good example to me
00:14:35.54\00:14:39.07
and we... we just
had great friends,
00:14:39.11\00:14:41.91
we've been in
that area all my life
00:14:41.94\00:14:44.71
and we had... as a
married couple been there
00:14:44.75\00:14:46.98
for 19 years, so I
had a lot of support
00:14:47.02\00:14:50.29
and that's very important
00:14:50.35\00:14:51.69
but at the same time
when you're going through this
00:14:51.72\00:14:53.86
as a Christian, it's
amazing how people just
00:14:53.89\00:14:56.89
kind of... just kind of back...
00:14:56.93\00:14:58.99
and you know why?
00:14:59.06\00:15:00.40
They don't know what to say,
00:15:00.43\00:15:01.76
they don't want to stick
their foot in their mouth,
00:15:01.80\00:15:04.70
they don't want to hurt
you and they both loved...
00:15:04.73\00:15:06.60
our friends loved
both of us as a couple,
00:15:06.63\00:15:10.21
they saw us as a
couple and so it was very hard
00:15:10.24\00:15:14.28
for people to
know what to do or say.
00:15:14.31\00:15:16.41
What would you say
would be a good thing...
00:15:16.44\00:15:20.35
what would have helped,
00:15:20.38\00:15:23.05
would there have been anything
that someone could have said
00:15:23.08\00:15:25.59
to you that would have helped?
00:15:25.65\00:15:27.39
What's helpful when someone...
when a friend is going through
00:15:27.42\00:15:31.16
a divorce like that and you're
friends with both parties,
00:15:31.19\00:15:34.70
what would be helpful to say
00:15:34.73\00:15:37.40
to someone who is
going through that?
00:15:37.47\00:15:39.33
I think all you can say is,
"We don't know what's going on,
00:15:39.37\00:15:45.14
we don't know why
this has happened,
00:15:45.17\00:15:47.08
we just love both of you,"
00:15:47.11\00:15:49.78
and then just put your
arm around someone, hug them,
00:15:49.81\00:15:52.45
invite them to your house,
00:15:52.48\00:15:54.48
suddenly you don't go to
any friends houses anymore
00:15:54.52\00:15:58.89
because they feel torn if I
ask her but I don't ask him...
00:15:58.92\00:16:04.36
and we used to
have "them" and so,
00:16:04.39\00:16:06.46
it's hard on your
friendships and I would say,
00:16:06.49\00:16:10.57
you just need to love
these people separately
00:16:10.60\00:16:13.80
and after a period of
time that's what happened.
00:16:13.84\00:16:17.27
So, I would like to
just insert right here...
00:16:17.31\00:16:20.71
she's talking
about a support group...
00:16:20.74\00:16:22.48
when I was coming...
00:16:22.51\00:16:24.15
when I was
coming back to the Lord
00:16:24.18\00:16:27.02
and leaving the Gay life,
00:16:27.05\00:16:28.48
that's when we
became re-acquainted
00:16:28.52\00:16:32.02
and her divorce took place
almost immediately after that.
00:16:32.05\00:16:36.02
I became a major
part of her support group
00:16:36.06\00:16:38.93
for over a
year, I would call her
00:16:38.96\00:16:42.93
and pray with her,
00:16:42.96\00:16:44.30
we would pray that her
husband would come back,
00:16:44.33\00:16:46.40
I wrote her letters and so
we developed that friendship
00:16:46.43\00:16:50.64
through being
supportive of each other
00:16:50.67\00:16:54.18
and I had no
inclination whatsoever
00:16:54.21\00:16:57.68
of pursuing a
romantic relationship
00:16:57.71\00:17:01.12
I was simply trying to
be a good Christian friend
00:17:01.15\00:17:05.09
in helping her
through this process,
00:17:05.12\00:17:07.69
I had no idea what the Lord
was going to do through that.
00:17:07.72\00:17:10.93
Now, Claudia, did
you know at the time
00:17:10.96\00:17:13.66
that Ron was coming
out of the Gay lifestyle?
00:17:13.70\00:17:15.93
Yes, I knew, all the time
he was actually in the Gay life
00:17:15.96\00:17:20.60
that he was living that way,
00:17:20.64\00:17:23.00
his sister and I
had remained friends
00:17:23.04\00:17:25.27
and she would see me
at times and she'd say,
00:17:25.34\00:17:27.21
"Oh, please
keep praying for Ron"
00:17:27.24\00:17:29.64
and so I knew,
00:17:29.68\00:17:31.88
but I didn't
know a lot of details.
00:17:31.91\00:17:33.31
I didn't need to know details
and so that had been something
00:17:33.35\00:17:38.09
and I had always had a
special liking for Ron,
00:17:38.15\00:17:41.36
all the years that I'd known him
00:17:41.39\00:17:43.12
and I couldn't
never figure out why
00:17:43.16\00:17:44.76
he couldn't pay
any attention to me,
00:17:44.79\00:17:46.26
instead of all
these other people...
00:17:46.29\00:17:47.70
Oh, I love that you got
that little "dig" in there.
00:17:47.73\00:17:54.47
But as I went through
this situation of my own,
00:17:54.50\00:18:00.84
he had come to visit with
his brother-in-law at the time
00:18:00.88\00:18:04.71
and they were on a business
trip and just came through
00:18:04.75\00:18:08.52
and he said, "Well,
is there anyone I know
00:18:08.55\00:18:09.92
in the Nashville area?"
00:18:09.95\00:18:11.29
And he suggested that
I was in the area and...
00:18:11.32\00:18:14.92
so they had come
by... he told me then
00:18:14.96\00:18:17.26
that he was working his way back
00:18:17.29\00:18:19.59
into a
relationship with the Lord,
00:18:19.63\00:18:21.83
he hadn't even been baptized...
re-baptized at that point,
00:18:21.86\00:18:24.70
but he told me
what was happening
00:18:24.73\00:18:27.70
and I was just
thrilled out of my mind
00:18:27.74\00:18:30.31
and I... it was just so exciting
00:18:30.34\00:18:32.81
because I could
see the joy in his face
00:18:32.84\00:18:35.51
and I knew what
struggles he's been through
00:18:35.54\00:18:38.61
and so, it was just
really an exciting time.
00:18:38.65\00:18:42.02
Nice, so at what
point did you both decide
00:18:42.05\00:18:45.35
that... wait a minute...
there's something brewing here?
00:18:45.39\00:18:47.96
Jason: That was
about to be my question.
00:18:47.99\00:18:49.42
Yvonne: I'm sorry,
I took your question.
00:18:49.46\00:18:50.83
Oh dear, well as he says,
he had been writing just...
00:18:50.86\00:18:56.73
he sent out a Newsletter
in the job he was doing
00:18:56.77\00:18:59.50
at the time... that would
be... pastoring... he was doing
00:18:59.53\00:19:01.70
and he would just write a
personal note at the bottom.
00:19:01.74\00:19:03.91
So, these weren't
"love letters" or anything
00:19:03.94\00:19:06.91
because it wasn't at that point
00:19:06.98\00:19:08.31
and he sent a letter saying
00:19:08.34\00:19:11.28
that his church was going
to be having a Camp Meeting
00:19:11.31\00:19:13.68
and he invited me
and my son to come
00:19:13.72\00:19:15.88
and that's what happened,
we went to this Camp Meeting.
00:19:15.92\00:19:20.79
However, you
skipped a little detail...
00:19:20.82\00:19:23.79
because I was
speaking at a Camp Meeting
00:19:23.83\00:19:26.59
in the Nashville area
and she and her family came
00:19:26.63\00:19:30.67
and afterwards as
we were about to leave
00:19:30.73\00:19:33.97
she was still grieving and
I was trying to comfort her
00:19:34.00\00:19:37.87
about her husband
and she finally said,
00:19:37.91\00:19:41.84
"Well, you know, he remarried
about three months ago"
00:19:41.88\00:19:45.38
and I said, "Well, Claudia,
00:19:45.41\00:19:47.52
we can't keep
praying for him to come back,
00:19:47.55\00:19:49.75
he's married"
00:19:49.78\00:19:51.12
and so, you know, we
hugged and said goodbye
00:19:51.15\00:19:53.96
and I was traveling
with two other pastors
00:19:53.99\00:19:56.93
and then all of a
sudden, going down the freeway
00:19:56.96\00:20:01.13
I just blurted
out... "She is available"
00:20:01.16\00:20:05.00
and these other pastors said,
"What are you talking about?"
00:20:05.03\00:20:08.94
I said,
"Claudia, she's available"
00:20:08.97\00:20:10.54
I had never even
thought about that before
00:20:10.57\00:20:12.47
and I was
having some issues with
00:20:12.51\00:20:14.81
a single lady in this
church I was pastoring...
00:20:14.84\00:20:18.21
she was the only single woman,
I was the only single man,
00:20:18.28\00:20:20.92
she was announcing she
was going to be Mrs. Pastor,
00:20:20.95\00:20:24.39
so, I had been counseling
with these other pastors
00:20:24.45\00:20:27.82
and... so they
were kind of shocked
00:20:27.89\00:20:29.66
when I'm now talking
about... "She's available,"
00:20:29.69\00:20:32.16
they're thinking, "Who?"
00:20:32.19\00:20:33.53
And that's when it hit me
00:20:33.56\00:20:34.90
that we had
developed this friendship
00:20:34.93\00:20:37.33
we had been friends
now for over a year,
00:20:37.37\00:20:39.77
and maybe the Lord
was working something here
00:20:39.83\00:20:44.11
so that's when I invited
her to that other Camp Meeting.
00:20:44.14\00:20:48.14
Yvonne: Oh...
00:20:48.18\00:20:49.54
So I was already
beginning to think
00:20:49.58\00:20:52.05
but she didn't
know that at the time.
00:20:52.08\00:20:54.48
Right... right... so you
went to the Camp Meeting,
00:20:54.52\00:20:57.32
and when you went,
were you, Ron, thinking...
00:20:57.39\00:21:00.96
"Oh, okay, this could
develop into something
00:21:00.99\00:21:04.49
but you just didn't know?"
00:21:04.56\00:21:06.06
I was being very, very cautious
00:21:06.09\00:21:07.60
because I've been in the
Gay life for all those years
00:21:07.63\00:21:10.37
and I was
thinking... "you know...
00:21:10.40\00:21:11.83
I'm probably not
fit to be a husband... "
00:21:11.87\00:21:15.24
but I prayed about
it, I asked the Lord,
00:21:15.27\00:21:18.57
"Would you ever trust
me again with a family?"
00:21:18.61\00:21:22.48
And so, evidently He
was answering my prayers.
00:21:22.54\00:21:26.38
Yes, yes, were you
feeling that you had overcome
00:21:26.41\00:21:30.89
that whole part of your life
00:21:30.95\00:21:33.39
or were you still struggling
with that aspect of it?"
00:21:33.42\00:21:36.89
I had totally
turned my back on that life
00:21:36.93\00:21:38.39
the way I like to tell
it is... using many of the
00:21:38.43\00:21:42.83
principles that
we find in the Bible
00:21:42.86\00:21:44.97
and I studied my
way out of the Gay life
00:21:45.00\00:21:47.10
simply with the Word of God.
00:21:47.14\00:21:48.57
I found
everything that I needed,
00:21:48.60\00:21:50.54
I didn't need counseling
or therapy or any of that,
00:21:50.57\00:21:54.11
I just submitted
to the Word of God...
00:21:54.14\00:21:57.91
I mean God is... He is
a loving heavenly Father,
00:21:57.95\00:22:00.88
He must know what
He's talking about,
00:22:00.92\00:22:03.18
I'm the one who
needs correction not Him
00:22:03.25\00:22:05.49
and I hung
that... my homosexuality
00:22:05.55\00:22:10.33
mentally on the forbidden
tree in the Garden of Eden
00:22:10.36\00:22:13.80
and I just said, no
matter how delectable
00:22:13.83\00:22:16.80
the fruit on that
tree... it's off limits
00:22:16.87\00:22:20.07
it's not an option
and I closed that door
00:22:20.10\00:22:23.27
and I started practicing
starving that side of myself
00:22:23.30\00:22:27.31
and feeding the
new... I wouldn't...
00:22:27.38\00:22:29.74
entertain
thoughts in that direction,
00:22:29.78\00:22:32.08
I, you know, I
literally, mentally just...
00:22:32.11\00:22:34.45
starved that... I
wouldn't go there,
00:22:34.48\00:22:37.15
so I left myself wide open
00:22:37.19\00:22:39.65
for the Lord to lead
me in a new direction
00:22:39.69\00:22:42.72
and I was not
inclined to be married
00:22:42.76\00:22:45.33
but I had prayed and asked
the Lord if He would trust me
00:22:45.36\00:22:48.56
with a family again... and so
00:22:48.60\00:22:50.70
He was leading
me down that path.
00:22:50.73\00:22:52.13
Hmmm...
00:22:52.17\00:22:53.50
Now, did you all face any
skepticism... like, you know,
00:22:53.54\00:22:56.40
people on the outside
looking in and saying,
00:22:56.44\00:22:59.11
Oh well, he hasn't changed...
00:22:59.14\00:23:00.48
Ron: Oh yeah, everyone
thought we both were crazy.
00:23:00.51\00:23:03.28
Yeah, people
thought I had lost my mind
00:23:03.31\00:23:05.98
when they found out...
when we got to the point of...
00:23:06.01\00:23:10.12
of being engaged and
planning a wedding and so forth
00:23:10.15\00:23:14.22
and I understand that.
00:23:14.26\00:23:16.06
My own parents... they,
of course, had questions
00:23:16.09\00:23:19.89
but as soon as I
explained to them
00:23:19.93\00:23:22.70
what I felt and
what I observed in Ron
00:23:22.73\00:23:25.47
and what I knew about
him then... they were...
00:23:25.50\00:23:28.04
again... they had to
be totally supportive
00:23:28.07\00:23:30.57
in every way that they could.
00:23:30.61\00:23:32.47
What had you observed?
00:23:32.51\00:23:33.84
What I had observed...
was from 30 years before
00:23:33.88\00:23:37.65
and this is a point I
want to make in this Program,
00:23:37.68\00:23:41.65
"People who are gay
00:23:41.68\00:23:47.76
can be kind, loving, gentle,
00:23:47.82\00:23:52.06
honest, talented, smart... "
00:23:52.09\00:23:55.63
and I knew all of
these things about Ron,
00:23:55.66\00:24:01.00
I had observed
him for four years
00:24:01.04\00:24:03.27
closely as we
were in school together
00:24:03.30\00:24:05.77
and he was
always... he was funny,
00:24:05.81\00:24:08.14
he was... he was
always kind to other people,
00:24:08.21\00:24:11.48
he was just a good
person, he had a good character
00:24:11.51\00:24:15.92
and the fact that he
fell into this temptation
00:24:15.95\00:24:20.29
and gave up on God for a time...
00:24:20.32\00:24:23.46
didn't change who
he was... basically...
00:24:23.49\00:24:25.69
and so, when I knew
that he had found his answers
00:24:25.73\00:24:29.30
and was coming
back... and I... like I said,
00:24:29.33\00:24:32.10
watched him during that
year that he was pastoring
00:24:32.13\00:24:35.27
and heard... the
letters he wrote...
00:24:35.30\00:24:37.87
testimonies of what
God was doing in his life,
00:24:37.91\00:24:42.14
you know, I had no
doubt he had found the answers
00:24:42.18\00:24:45.31
and as we talked more...
I knew he had the answers
00:24:45.35\00:24:48.32
that had caused him to go
that way in the first place,
00:24:48.35\00:24:51.05
he was still kind
and gentle and funny
00:24:51.09\00:24:55.52
and all these other
things, you see what I'm saying,
00:24:55.56\00:24:57.99
gay people are people
00:24:58.03\00:25:00.50
and they have a social
and sexual dilemma going on
00:25:00.53\00:25:05.73
that confuses them and
throws them into much doubt
00:25:05.77\00:25:10.94
and some are more
traumatized than others
00:25:10.97\00:25:15.31
but Ron was still
basically that person.
00:25:15.34\00:25:19.11
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:25:19.18\00:25:20.52
I think it's a very
important thing to understand
00:25:20.55\00:25:23.28
about people in this
particular community.
00:25:23.32\00:25:26.72
I think that's a good
point because, so often,
00:25:26.76\00:25:30.09
if you're not familiar with...
if you don't have a gay friend
00:25:30.13\00:25:35.56
or somebody that... you
know that's in that lifestyle,
00:25:35.60\00:25:38.67
it's just like
any... any other culture
00:25:38.70\00:25:41.27
you know, until you know
someone of a different culture,
00:25:41.30\00:25:44.41
you make assumptions...
00:25:44.44\00:25:45.81
and those assumptions
are not necessarily true.
00:25:45.84\00:25:49.44
You're stereotyping,
00:25:49.51\00:25:51.01
you're making
assumptions about people
00:25:51.08\00:25:53.65
that you don't really know
but here you are saying that
00:25:53.68\00:25:57.65
you got to know this man...
you knew that he was kind,
00:25:57.69\00:26:01.59
that he was funny,
that he was spiritual,
00:26:01.62\00:26:03.39
that... that he had
all of these qualities
00:26:03.43\00:26:06.43
and he had an issue that he...
00:26:06.46\00:26:09.96
that he... by the time...
you guys connected like this
00:26:10.00\00:26:15.34
he had dealt with.
00:26:15.37\00:26:17.24
And he was getting... he
was having victory in his life
00:26:17.27\00:26:20.14
and he was sharing
that victory with others,
00:26:20.18\00:26:22.81
and he was just on fire about it
00:26:22.84\00:26:25.05
and I knew... if
he could have him...
00:26:25.08\00:26:26.45
do all of this and
had found those answers
00:26:26.48\00:26:29.72
that... it would be the same
00:26:29.75\00:26:31.22
with the other
problems that would come up
00:26:31.25\00:26:33.86
and being married to
him, I'll tell you...
00:26:33.89\00:26:35.99
people want to
know what's it like
00:26:36.02\00:26:37.36
being married to an ex-Gay,
00:26:37.39\00:26:38.79
it's like being
married to any other man...
00:26:38.83\00:26:41.73
Yvonne: How so?
00:26:41.76\00:26:43.16
It can be infuriating...
00:26:43.20\00:26:45.07
Ron: But that's
not necessarily true.
00:26:45.10\00:26:49.60
there could be...
00:26:49.64\00:26:51.51
You know... I am
married to Ron Woolsey,
00:26:51.54\00:26:57.85
a wonderful man,
00:26:57.91\00:26:59.25
and someone who loves
the Lord with all his heart
00:26:59.28\00:27:02.55
and has dedicated himself to
sharing that love with others
00:27:02.58\00:27:06.35
and to helping them to
find victory in their lives
00:27:06.39\00:27:09.09
and so, I don't treat
him any differently than
00:27:09.12\00:27:11.83
I would treat any other man.
00:27:11.86\00:27:13.19
You can't... that's
a choice I had to make,
00:27:13.23\00:27:15.53
"This is a man... I'm
going to be married to him,
00:27:15.56\00:27:18.40
I'm going to treat
him just the same way
00:27:18.43\00:27:20.20
as I would treat
any other man... "
00:27:20.24\00:27:21.57
and I gave that same
advice to a young lady
00:27:21.60\00:27:24.14
who married
someone down in Mexico
00:27:24.17\00:27:27.44
that someone that Ron
worked with for several years
00:27:27.48\00:27:30.15
and he has come
out of the Gay life
00:27:30.21\00:27:31.81
and then met this
wonderful girl and they married
00:27:31.85\00:27:35.28
and that was my advice to her,
00:27:35.32\00:27:36.65
they had us come
down to their wedding,
00:27:36.69\00:27:38.25
flew us down there and
we were their special guests
00:27:38.29\00:27:41.52
and it was just so exciting
and I told her the same thing,
00:27:41.56\00:27:45.96
I said, "You have just married
00:27:45.99\00:27:47.76
a wonderful man...
treat him... that way... "
00:27:47.80\00:27:52.10
Yvonne: Hmmm...
hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:27:52.13\00:27:54.64
And, you know,
marriage is always a risk
00:27:54.67\00:27:57.01
I don't care who it is,
00:27:57.04\00:27:59.21
you never know if
the person you married
00:27:59.24\00:28:03.24
is going to
stay the same person.
00:28:03.28\00:28:05.01
Yvonne: That's true...
00:28:05.05\00:28:06.38
We can all
change and we all do...
00:28:06.41\00:28:07.75
many women unfortunately
marry men and think,
00:28:07.78\00:28:10.62
"Well, I don't like this
about him but I'll fix that"
00:28:10.65\00:28:13.46
women... tend to be fixers...
00:28:13.52\00:28:15.66
Jason: That's
where they go wrong.
00:28:15.72\00:28:17.06
That's right...
that's right... because
00:28:17.09\00:28:19.33
none of us has
the right to do that
00:28:19.36\00:28:21.33
and so what I say is,
"Just go out and marry anyone
00:28:21.36\00:28:24.63
that is an ex-Gay person...
" no, not on your life...
00:28:24.70\00:28:27.94
because you need to
know who that person is
00:28:27.97\00:28:31.87
there are good heterosexual men
00:28:31.91\00:28:34.44
and there are
bad heterosexual men,
00:28:34.48\00:28:37.25
there are good characters in
00:28:37.28\00:28:39.55
people who have
fallen into the Gay life
00:28:39.58\00:28:41.52
and there are
people in the Gay life
00:28:41.55\00:28:43.45
who have terrible
characters, I wouldn't put a
00:28:43.49\00:28:46.69
risk on them... until
they have met the Lord
00:28:46.72\00:28:49.92
and made major
changes in their lives
00:28:49.96\00:28:52.76
and proven that you
can't just go into this
00:28:52.79\00:28:56.03
blind... you know... and
be ridiculous about this,
00:28:56.06\00:28:59.70
but can a person who's
been in that lifestyle change?
00:28:59.73\00:29:03.34
Absolutely... Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:29:03.37\00:29:05.91
Jason: Something that I
think is important that...
00:29:05.94\00:29:07.81
you get with someone
00:29:07.84\00:29:09.74
and you like the person that
they are... today and right now,
00:29:09.78\00:29:14.85
you don't like the
person that they could be
00:29:14.88\00:29:17.25
because what if they
never become that person?
00:29:17.29\00:29:19.59
That's right... well, I mean...
00:29:19.62\00:29:21.49
yeah, it doesn't
matter whether it's
00:29:21.52\00:29:23.63
what relationship is,
you've got those issues
00:29:23.66\00:29:26.66
and that's why, you know,
as I went through one trauma
00:29:26.70\00:29:30.10
I just decided I
was going to be happy,
00:29:30.13\00:29:32.53
I was going to be loving,
00:29:32.57\00:29:34.54
I was going to do my part
00:29:34.57\00:29:36.47
and that's what we
all need to do anyway...
00:29:36.50\00:29:38.24
is... we need to do our part
00:29:38.27\00:29:40.31
to try to make any relationship
the best that it can be.
00:29:40.38\00:29:43.24
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:29:43.31\00:29:44.65
And yes there are
always problems but
00:29:44.68\00:29:47.28
I have found
consistency in Ron...
00:29:47.32\00:29:50.19
and that is one
of the things that...
00:29:50.25\00:29:53.05
is the nail that holds
us together as a family...
00:29:53.09\00:29:56.62
as a couple because
he is very consistent
00:29:56.66\00:30:01.60
and I knew from
the very beginning
00:30:01.63\00:30:03.73
when he started talking to me
00:30:03.77\00:30:06.10
and we started
developing this relationship,
00:30:06.13\00:30:08.57
I knew how firm he was
00:30:08.60\00:30:13.24
and that he had
prayed and asked the Lord
00:30:13.27\00:30:15.91
for second chances and double
portions of His Holy Spirit
00:30:15.94\00:30:20.12
and they had done these things
00:30:20.15\00:30:22.18
and I knew that he was
open to the possibility
00:30:22.22\00:30:25.89
of having another marriage
and another relationship
00:30:25.95\00:30:28.72
and I think this is where
a lot of people fall short,
00:30:28.79\00:30:31.56
there have been
a number of people
00:30:31.59\00:30:33.03
who have come
out of the gay life
00:30:33.06\00:30:34.46
but they think they have to
spend the rest of their life
00:30:34.50\00:30:37.07
living in celibacy,
that's not God's plan.
00:30:37.10\00:30:40.14
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:30:40.17\00:30:41.67
Well, celibacy meaning...
00:30:41.70\00:30:44.14
you're celibate if
you're not married... but...
00:30:44.17\00:30:46.07
Claudia: Yes, if
you're not married...
00:30:46.11\00:30:48.71
of course, but, they
won't allow themselves
00:30:48.74\00:30:51.35
to see the possibility
00:30:51.38\00:30:52.81
of being in a heterosexual
relationship after that.
00:30:52.85\00:30:58.02
Do you think the question is...
00:30:58.05\00:31:01.56
within many who
are ex-Gays that...
00:31:01.59\00:31:05.03
"Well, this is just something
that I'll never get into
00:31:05.06\00:31:10.30
a heterosexual
relationship because this is who
00:31:10.33\00:31:13.03
I defined myself as... before"
00:31:13.10\00:31:15.37
what do you think about...
00:31:15.40\00:31:17.61
what are some of the thoughts
that go through a person's mind
00:31:17.67\00:31:23.75
that were in that
lifestyle that have come out
00:31:23.78\00:31:26.41
and now they don't feel like
they're automatically "straight"
00:31:26.45\00:31:29.85
they're not heterosexual...
00:31:29.88\00:31:31.95
Claudia: No, it's not
instant. Yvonne: Yeah.
00:31:32.02\00:31:33.39
You know I know
that there are people
00:31:33.42\00:31:36.36
that come out of the Gay
life, they accept the Lord
00:31:36.39\00:31:39.66
and they live a
pure life sexually
00:31:39.69\00:31:43.73
but they mentally
continue identifying
00:31:43.77\00:31:47.74
as same-sex attracted.
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:31:47.77\00:31:49.64
and I think every time that
you say it... it reinforces it,
00:31:49.67\00:31:54.28
when I came out of the Gay life,
00:31:54.31\00:31:57.01
I was very
strongly same-sex attracted
00:31:57.05\00:32:00.28
but I didn't talk
about it, I starved it,
00:32:00.32\00:32:03.69
I... you know... I
learned to flip the switch
00:32:03.72\00:32:07.02
turn my head...
change the channel...
00:32:07.06\00:32:08.86
change the subject, you know,
00:32:08.89\00:32:10.83
all of these things, I...
00:32:10.86\00:32:12.73
there are so many
Biblical principles,
00:32:12.76\00:32:14.66
I had to bring every
thought into captivity,
00:32:14.70\00:32:17.70
being transformed by
the renewing of the mind
00:32:17.73\00:32:20.44
and that... many,
many Biblical principles
00:32:20.47\00:32:23.84
and so, I don't
think it's being dishonest
00:32:23.87\00:32:27.21
to not talk about
same-sex attraction
00:32:27.24\00:32:30.31
I think it is a part of
the process of starving it,
00:32:30.35\00:32:34.12
don't bring it up,
don't talk about it,
00:32:34.15\00:32:37.09
it's not about
being transparent,
00:32:37.12\00:32:39.29
it's... it's... you
don't keep regurgitating it,
00:32:39.32\00:32:41.92
you don't keep bringing up
something you're trying to bury
00:32:41.96\00:32:45.19
quit resurrecting
the dead, right...
00:32:45.23\00:32:48.36
you bury it, you let it die
00:32:48.40\00:32:50.57
and the old man
died and you bury it
00:32:50.60\00:32:53.50
and you leave it there,
00:32:53.54\00:32:54.87
if temptation comes, we
have Biblical principles
00:32:54.90\00:32:58.04
on how to deal
with the temptation,
00:32:58.07\00:32:59.97
don't identify
with the temptation,
00:33:00.01\00:33:02.21
that's Satan's
plan for your life...
00:33:02.24\00:33:04.38
it's not God's plan,
so I don't allow myself
00:33:04.41\00:33:08.68
to be identified by
Satan's plan for my life
00:33:08.72\00:33:12.95
but by God's plan for my life.
00:33:12.99\00:33:14.62
Hmmm... hmmm... so
what would you say...
00:33:14.66\00:33:18.19
if you could give
five steps basically
00:33:18.23\00:33:21.96
to overcoming
the whole temptation,
00:33:22.00\00:33:25.63
what five steps would you give?
00:33:25.70\00:33:27.80
Well, in my book, I
have about 14 different...
00:33:27.84\00:33:33.94
a list of things
the Lord led me through,
00:33:33.98\00:33:36.34
first of all you need to realize
00:33:36.38\00:33:40.08
that God loves
you just immensely,
00:33:40.12\00:33:43.35
and it doesn't matter whether
you love Him back or not,
00:33:43.39\00:33:46.82
He still loves
you, He loves the lost,
00:33:46.86\00:33:48.76
he died for enemies
00:33:48.79\00:33:51.13
and when you start realizing
how much God loves you,
00:33:51.16\00:33:55.36
it gives you value,
00:33:55.40\00:33:57.37
it gives you worth,
00:33:57.43\00:33:59.33
it helps you want to
face yourself honestly,
00:33:59.37\00:34:03.67
look at yourself...
size yourself up based upon
00:34:03.71\00:34:08.78
His picture and His
standards and if you
00:34:08.81\00:34:13.82
will make that commitment of
putting God first in your life,
00:34:13.85\00:34:17.75
trusting that He is a
loving heavenly Father
00:34:17.79\00:34:20.02
and everything He asks of
you is out of love for you
00:34:20.06\00:34:25.03
and concern for your well-being
00:34:25.06\00:34:27.16
which means... like
any child growing up
00:34:27.20\00:34:30.97
you have to deny
your own inclinations
00:34:31.00\00:34:34.67
in order to please Daddy and
to follow Daddy's counseling,
00:34:34.70\00:34:40.01
follow Daddy's guidance and so,
00:34:40.04\00:34:42.44
especially knowing that we
have a fallen human nature,
00:34:42.48\00:34:46.38
we need to realize that
00:34:46.41\00:34:47.75
not everything
that I struggle with
00:34:47.78\00:34:50.02
is for my good, I'm fallen,
00:34:50.05\00:34:51.85
so, I don't know
how many steps...
00:34:51.89\00:34:54.02
we're just
plowing through here...
00:34:54.06\00:34:55.56
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:55.59\00:34:57.53
The thing is... it's
just a matter of using logic,
00:34:57.56\00:34:59.49
God says, "Come now,
let us reason together"
00:34:59.53\00:35:02.83
and you just go through
this reason... putting Him first
00:35:02.86\00:35:05.93
and trusting that
everything He says,
00:35:05.97\00:35:09.94
His counsel, His commandments,
00:35:10.01\00:35:12.17
His warnings, His
reproofs are all out of love
00:35:12.21\00:35:15.54
and realizing His plan
00:35:15.58\00:35:17.45
is much greater than
anything we could imagine,
00:35:17.48\00:35:20.32
He sees much farther
down the road than we can see,
00:35:20.35\00:35:23.85
it's a matter of
trusting and obeying
00:35:23.89\00:35:27.49
and walking with
Him and the Bible says,
00:35:27.52\00:35:30.19
"We are to present our
bodies... a living sacrifice. "
00:35:30.23\00:35:34.00
If it doesn't
please the Lord, let it go,
00:35:34.03\00:35:37.47
no matter how strong
the temptation or the urge
00:35:37.50\00:35:40.27
and He gives us the
strength to do that,
00:35:40.30\00:35:42.80
He says, "My
grace is sufficient... "
00:35:42.84\00:35:44.84
Yvonne: Yes...
00:35:44.87\00:35:46.21
His strength is
sufficient for that.
00:35:46.24\00:35:47.58
That's good, that's good,
so, Sister Claudia, when you...
00:35:47.61\00:35:52.11
once you made the
decision to marry Ron,
00:35:52.15\00:35:57.29
what did people say to
you, what did they say?
00:35:57.32\00:36:01.69
Well, they just...
they... several just said,
00:36:01.72\00:36:05.79
"You're crazy... "
00:36:05.83\00:36:07.16
yeah... they said,
"You can't do this!"
00:36:07.20\00:36:09.66
that was the main thing,
they said, "You can't do this"
00:36:09.70\00:36:11.93
they knew I had
a son at the time.
00:36:11.97\00:36:13.74
Ron: And wasn't
that your maid of honor?
00:36:13.77\00:36:15.77
Yeah, and she was my dear friend
00:36:15.80\00:36:19.54
but she was so concerned,
00:36:19.57\00:36:20.91
she knew the trauma
I had just been through
00:36:20.94\00:36:22.64
and had been there
for me through all that
00:36:22.68\00:36:24.71
and she thought that I
was just on the rebound
00:36:24.78\00:36:27.88
that I just didn't...
I had no good judgment
00:36:27.92\00:36:31.02
at that point, and so, she says,
00:36:31.05\00:36:33.62
"Well, just... then
at least put out fleece"
00:36:33.66\00:36:35.72
and I said,
"But I don't need to"
00:36:35.76\00:36:38.36
and she said, "Well,
would you do it for me?"
00:36:38.39\00:36:41.10
And I thought, "Well, I'm
not sure that works that way,
00:36:41.13\00:36:44.57
I'm not sure that's
the way God works it... "
00:36:44.60\00:36:47.50
but I thought,
"Okay, I will... "
00:36:47.54\00:36:50.61
and so I did and my fleece was
00:36:50.64\00:36:54.38
that if God
wanted me to marry Ron
00:36:54.44\00:36:57.75
and do it then
because we decided,
00:36:57.81\00:37:00.05
"What was the point in waiting?"
00:37:00.08\00:37:02.25
We had known each
other for 30 years...
00:37:02.28\00:37:05.32
How long after you started
dating did you get married?
00:37:05.35\00:37:08.12
Ron: We had one date.
00:37:08.16\00:37:10.99
Jason: We are impressed.
00:37:11.03\00:37:13.76
You know, she told my sister,
00:37:13.80\00:37:16.33
"I don't know what he's up
to but I wish he'd hurry up"
00:37:16.36\00:37:19.17
so... why wait?
00:37:19.20\00:37:21.80
Oh, well, his
sister chaperoned us
00:37:21.84\00:37:26.37
on our... going back
to our high school...
00:37:26.41\00:37:28.81
for a high school reunion
and so, it was over that weekend
00:37:28.84\00:37:31.65
and driving from Tennessee
to East Tennessee and back
00:37:31.71\00:37:35.88
and so forth... and
like... we had all those years
00:37:35.92\00:37:39.75
of past life that we had
known each other and so forth
00:37:39.79\00:37:43.63
and I dearly
loved his family anyway,
00:37:43.66\00:37:46.39
so that wasn't an
issue either but where was I?
00:37:46.46\00:37:50.73
Yvonne: Well,
actually, you know what?
00:37:50.77\00:37:52.93
Let's talk a little
bit about that weekend
00:37:52.97\00:37:55.07
because we still don't know
what was the impetus to actually
00:37:55.10\00:37:59.21
switch from platonic to romantic
00:37:59.24\00:38:01.31
so what actually happened
00:38:01.34\00:38:03.78
that made that
switch go off in your head?
00:38:03.81\00:38:06.35
It was the campfire
at the Camp Meeting...
00:38:06.38\00:38:08.62
Yvonne: Oh...
Claudia: That's what it was...
00:38:08.65\00:38:10.59
And I thought it
was Gatlinburg...
00:38:10.62\00:38:11.95
crossing the street.
00:38:11.99\00:38:13.32
Well that too...
that comes later,
00:38:13.36\00:38:14.69
but what happened
when this Camp Meeting
00:38:14.72\00:38:17.56
that he asked my son
and myself to come to,
00:38:17.59\00:38:19.73
he was playing his Accordion,
00:38:19.76\00:38:22.30
we were around the
campfire lake that evening
00:38:22.36\00:38:25.07
and we were just
singing all those songs
00:38:25.10\00:38:27.00
that we had grown
up singing and so forth
00:38:27.04\00:38:28.87
and it was just
a really good time,
00:38:28.90\00:38:30.74
it had been a very
good spiritual weekend
00:38:30.81\00:38:33.48
and... so... we
were just having fun
00:38:33.51\00:38:36.01
and he walked me back to
the campsite where I was staying
00:38:36.04\00:38:40.32
and then he... he wanted to
know if it would be possible
00:38:40.35\00:38:44.59
for us to go to
Homecoming together,
00:38:44.62\00:38:47.26
Yvonne: Oh...
00:38:47.29\00:38:48.82
And that was all
just... that was all
00:38:48.86\00:38:50.83
and then later he
decided we could call it a date
00:38:50.86\00:38:53.26
and when we went on
that homecoming weekend,
00:38:53.29\00:38:57.77
his sister kind of got
lost somewhere along the way
00:38:57.80\00:39:02.80
Ron: She was a good chaperone.
Yvonne: She made herself scarce.
00:39:02.84\00:39:05.77
She just disappeared and we
were walking through the town
00:39:05.81\00:39:09.81
down the streets of
Gatlinburg in Tennessee
00:39:09.84\00:39:11.98
and we went across the
street and up to that point
00:39:12.01\00:39:15.72
there had been no
communication other than verbal
00:39:15.75\00:39:19.35
and Ron reached
out and took my hand
00:39:19.39\00:39:22.02
as we were crossing the street,
00:39:22.06\00:39:24.66
I thought, "Well, that
was very gentlemanly of him"
00:39:24.69\00:39:27.13
and at that
moment... I did not hear words
00:39:27.16\00:39:31.20
but it was the same as...
00:39:31.23\00:39:33.27
because the Lord
just gave me a message
00:39:33.30\00:39:36.24
and he said, "I
have seen your grief,
00:39:36.27\00:39:39.27
I've watched all of
your tears flow... "
00:39:39.34\00:39:42.14
and He said, "I have
a surprise for you...
00:39:42.18\00:39:44.98
and this is it. "
00:39:45.01\00:39:46.45
Yvonne: Oh...
00:39:46.48\00:39:47.88
So, I knew then... that
something was going to happen
00:39:47.92\00:39:51.32
and when we got back to my
home in the Nashville area,
00:39:51.35\00:39:54.76
and Ron was leaving
to go back to Arkansas,
00:39:54.79\00:39:57.99
he invited me to
come for Thanksgiving
00:39:58.03\00:40:01.93
and then we went
over and had Thanksgiving
00:40:01.96\00:40:05.80
and were there for several
days with him and the family
00:40:05.83\00:40:08.70
and his sister lived in the
area and his parents as well
00:40:08.74\00:40:11.71
so we had a lot of
time there together
00:40:11.74\00:40:14.94
and then... the
next thing I knew,
00:40:14.98\00:40:18.11
he took me for a walk out in
the woods and took me to a cave
00:40:18.18\00:40:21.12
and... and...
and... he proposed...
00:40:21.15\00:40:25.29
Ron: That was a
beautiful setting.
00:40:25.32\00:40:29.42
After one date?
00:40:29.46\00:40:30.79
Claudia: Hmmm, kind of sort of.
00:40:30.83\00:40:32.46
See, I heard in my
mind... was the green light...
00:40:32.49\00:40:35.36
"hurry up... "
saying, "hurry up"
00:40:35.40\00:40:36.80
and so when I proposed to her
00:40:36.83\00:40:39.13
she turned to me
and started laughing
00:40:39.17\00:40:40.87
and I'm going... "What is this?"
00:40:40.90\00:40:43.14
And she said, "I
always knew you were slow...
00:40:43.17\00:40:46.44
but I never thought it
would take you 30 years
00:40:46.47\00:40:49.64
see, I've been in love
with you since the Eighth Grade"
00:40:49.68\00:40:52.41
Yvonne: Awww...
00:40:52.45\00:40:53.78
So that was the answer I got.
00:40:53.82\00:40:55.42
And that's not to
say... that was just...
00:40:55.45\00:40:58.62
that was puppy love, I just...
00:40:58.65\00:41:00.09
that was a crush I
had since the Eighth Grade
00:41:00.16\00:41:02.66
but our lives had just been
very separate all those years
00:41:02.69\00:41:06.70
and here's the
thing... in my grief of my...
00:41:06.73\00:41:10.43
my situation... I
said, "Lord, I don't know
00:41:10.47\00:41:14.10
if you ever want me to
be married again or not...
00:41:14.14\00:41:15.67
and I don't care,
one way or the other,
00:41:15.70\00:41:18.14
if you want me to marry someone,
00:41:18.17\00:41:20.34
you're going to have to find him
and make it very obvious to me"
00:41:20.38\00:41:25.38
and I said, "But, you
know, it would be really nice
00:41:25.41\00:41:28.18
if it could be someone
I've known from the past"
00:41:28.22\00:41:30.49
Yvonne: Really?
00:41:30.52\00:41:31.85
And that was just
one of my prayers to God
00:41:31.89\00:41:33.69
and so then when this started
happening, I'm just... going,
00:41:33.72\00:41:36.42
"Wow! now... I had that
special message in Gatlinburg"
00:41:36.46\00:41:39.13
and then this
pact with this friend
00:41:39.16\00:41:42.76
who said, "Please
put out a fleece for me"
00:41:42.80\00:41:45.70
this is after the proposal
00:41:45.73\00:41:47.07
and the wedding
plans were already going
00:41:47.10\00:41:49.07
and I said, "Okay, I will... "
00:41:49.10\00:41:50.94
So my fleece was this.
00:41:50.97\00:41:52.31
If I married Ron, I
would be leaving Tennessee
00:41:52.34\00:41:55.24
and moving to Arkansas with him
00:41:55.31\00:41:56.85
and I had a home
to sell and so I said,
00:41:56.88\00:42:01.52
"Lord, if you want me
to marry Ron and do it now,
00:42:01.58\00:42:04.22
then... and not a
year from now or whatever,
00:42:04.25\00:42:06.79
then, I'm asking... "
and this was a silent prayer,
00:42:06.82\00:42:09.92
"I'm asking that
you have someone come
00:42:09.96\00:42:14.13
and offer to buy
my house" that was it,
00:42:14.16\00:42:18.70
that was on Thursday, I
went to church that weekend
00:42:18.73\00:42:23.30
and I worked in the
Children's Department
00:42:23.34\00:42:26.27
and one of the
teachers came up to me afterward
00:42:26.31\00:42:28.38
and she said, "Claudia, I hear
that you're getting married... "
00:42:28.41\00:42:31.61
and I said, "Yes, I
am... and it's true,"
00:42:31.65\00:42:33.65
she was so
excited and then she says,
00:42:33.68\00:42:35.55
"Well, then are you
going to be moving away?"
00:42:35.58\00:42:38.22
and I said, "Yes"
and I told her about that
00:42:38.25\00:42:40.36
and then she said, "Oh,
well, I want to buy your house"
00:42:40.39\00:42:43.79
Yvonne and Jason: Wow!
00:42:43.83\00:42:46.03
And I said, "But you've
never even been to my house...
00:42:46.06\00:42:48.50
you've never seen
my house" she says...
00:42:48.53\00:42:49.86
and I said, "It's a log house...
00:42:49.90\00:42:51.53
it's one that we built from all
these old materials and it's.. "
00:42:51.57\00:42:54.60
She said, "Oh! I have
always wanted a log house"
00:42:54.64\00:42:57.77
and so, then, I realized it
was time to go on up to church
00:42:57.81\00:43:02.41
and I said, "Well,
talk to me later about it,"
00:43:02.44\00:43:04.88
she says,
"Well, you call me... "
00:43:04.91\00:43:06.25
she says, "How much
do you want for it?"
00:43:06.28\00:43:07.85
And I said, "I don't know, I
haven't even thought about it"
00:43:07.88\00:43:09.95
and she said,
"Well, call me and tell me"
00:43:09.98\00:43:12.15
several days went by,
00:43:12.22\00:43:14.22
I just didn't
think anything about it
00:43:14.26\00:43:16.36
you know, I'm still
kind of not all there
00:43:16.42\00:43:19.29
and... and she
called up... she says,
00:43:19.36\00:43:22.16
"Claudia, aren't you
going to call and tell me
00:43:22.20\00:43:25.53
how much you
want for the house?"
00:43:25.60\00:43:26.94
then I said, "Well, I didn't
think you were really serious"
00:43:26.97\00:43:28.80
and she said, "But I am... "
00:43:28.84\00:43:30.31
and I thought, "Wow
Lord, you need to just
00:43:30.34\00:43:34.64
really hit me in
the head a few times
00:43:34.68\00:43:36.38
and I'll finally get that
you're answering my prayer
00:43:36.41\00:43:38.98
that was about as
obvious as you can get. "
00:43:39.01\00:43:41.92
Yvonne: Did she buy the house?
00:43:41.95\00:43:44.59
No... is that what I prayed for?
00:43:44.62\00:43:47.19
No... I said, "Lord,
have someone come to me
00:43:47.22\00:43:51.49
and offer to buy my house"
00:43:51.53\00:43:52.86
no sign, no realtor, nothing,
00:43:52.89\00:43:54.76
and that's what happened.
00:43:54.83\00:43:56.16
So, then, I had
that double assurance too
00:43:56.20\00:43:59.03
and I knew that whatever journey
00:43:59.07\00:44:01.47
we were going to be going on...
00:44:01.50\00:44:02.84
it was going to be okay.
00:44:02.87\00:44:04.77
Wow! did it
every cross your mind
00:44:04.81\00:44:08.54
that Ron hadn't
gotten the victory,
00:44:08.58\00:44:12.25
were you ever worried
once you got married that
00:44:12.28\00:44:15.08
maybe... he
hadn't... did you ever wonder?
00:44:15.12\00:44:20.36
I had to think about
those things because I had a son
00:44:20.39\00:44:24.89
that was in the
middle of all this
00:44:24.93\00:44:27.43
and I had to think about it
00:44:27.46\00:44:31.17
but I saw no indication
00:44:31.23\00:44:34.87
and then I thought
something else... you know what?
00:44:34.90\00:44:36.27
"It doesn't matter
because he could be this way
00:44:36.30\00:44:40.51
today and if he
falls away from the Lord
00:44:40.54\00:44:43.01
and loses his
relationship with the Lord,
00:44:43.04\00:44:45.45
anything can happen,"
00:44:45.48\00:44:47.42
I'd had it,
experienced it already,
00:44:47.45\00:44:50.89
we don't have any guarantees
00:44:50.92\00:44:53.69
but when I can see that
this man kneels beside our bed
00:44:53.76\00:44:57.23
every night and
prays faithfully,
00:44:57.26\00:44:59.06
he gets up and has
his morning devotions,
00:44:59.09\00:45:01.20
he is consistent
in how he treats me
00:45:01.23\00:45:03.97
and now... our children
00:45:04.03\00:45:05.63
because we've had
two children together,
00:45:05.67\00:45:08.64
he's consistent
about everything he does
00:45:08.70\00:45:11.64
but yes, I had
to think about that,
00:45:11.67\00:45:14.14
I had to think
about disease, he told me,
00:45:14.18\00:45:17.18
I didn't even ask him
if he had been tested for
00:45:17.25\00:45:20.25
possibilities of having
HIV or anything like that,
00:45:20.28\00:45:23.28
he told me, he had been tested,
00:45:23.32\00:45:26.22
and so that was a
nice relief and a present
00:45:26.25\00:45:29.92
but that's no surety either,
00:45:29.96\00:45:31.36
he could just as
well come down with cancer
00:45:31.39\00:45:33.50
or have a heart
attack, you know what I mean?
00:45:33.53\00:45:35.56
And it just was something that
I was very much at peace about.
00:45:35.60\00:45:42.60
One thing that Claudia
said in the past was that
00:45:42.64\00:45:46.68
she was married and she
was in a heterosexual marriage,
00:45:46.71\00:45:49.94
and that husband left
her for another person...
00:45:49.98\00:45:52.91
what's the difference?
00:45:52.98\00:45:54.38
I mean... a husband can
leave you for another person,
00:45:54.42\00:45:58.72
you're still left...
00:45:58.75\00:46:00.56
and so, that helped me realize
00:46:00.59\00:46:02.49
this was really a
non-issue. Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:46:02.52\00:46:04.89
What mattered
was the relationship
00:46:04.93\00:46:07.93
that I had with
the Lord and so forth
00:46:07.96\00:46:10.63
and that was the
stability we needed.
00:46:10.67\00:46:13.27
And it's just knowing
that... that God can get you
00:46:13.30\00:46:16.10
through any of these
things that come to us in life
00:46:16.14\00:46:19.21
and we don't always
get the answers we want...
00:46:19.24\00:46:22.31
in this situation, I
had a wonderful answer
00:46:22.34\00:46:25.31
and does it mean that everything
has been great for us?
00:46:25.35\00:46:29.22
We've had to face
some real challenges,
00:46:29.25\00:46:33.36
not necessarily with each other,
00:46:33.42\00:46:34.99
we're sealed
together in that respect,
00:46:35.02\00:46:37.96
our challenges
have come from outside
00:46:37.99\00:46:40.90
and especially as he's
been in ministry and pastoring
00:46:40.93\00:46:44.03
and so forth, we...
00:46:44.07\00:46:45.73
that's a whole 'nother story
and a whole 'nother book...
00:46:45.77\00:46:47.90
Jason: That's what I
wanted to ask you about...
00:46:47.94\00:46:49.57
Claudia: That's a
whole 'nother book.
00:46:49.60\00:46:50.97
Have you received
opposition from the church
00:46:51.01\00:46:52.74
and any Leaders in the
church because of your past?
00:46:52.77\00:46:56.88
When I first came
and... back to the Lord and...
00:46:56.91\00:47:00.98
and then I
entered into ministry,
00:47:01.02\00:47:02.35
there were those
who were very skeptical,
00:47:02.38\00:47:04.92
I had an
Elder... working with me
00:47:04.95\00:47:08.76
that would come to
me repeatedly and say,
00:47:08.79\00:47:11.76
"Pastor Ron, I've
never known anyone like you
00:47:11.79\00:47:14.30
that's ever
lasted in the church"
00:47:14.33\00:47:15.66
and I finally wrote him a letter
in fact he said, "two years... "
00:47:15.70\00:47:19.47
and I wrote him a
letter and I said, you know,
00:47:19.50\00:47:22.94
"Dear John," I said, you know...
00:47:22.97\00:47:24.81
"you keep bringing this up
00:47:24.84\00:47:27.61
instead of
standing on the sidelines
00:47:27.64\00:47:29.21
waiting for me to fulfill your
doleful prediction of failure...
00:47:29.24\00:47:33.85
why didn't you
lift me up in prayer?
00:47:33.92\00:47:36.42
You should be praying for me"
00:47:36.45\00:47:37.92
I said, "Besides
it's been two years,
00:47:37.95\00:47:39.49
I'm going on three"
and well now... it's 25...
00:47:39.52\00:47:44.16
you know... so...
and I've had others...
00:47:44.19\00:47:48.36
even pastors... make
statements, you know, that...
00:47:48.40\00:47:51.20
warning people to stay
away from me because...
00:47:51.23\00:47:54.04
"that kind can never change... "
00:47:54.07\00:47:55.97
which gave me the
title of my first book.
00:47:56.00\00:47:57.97
And the title of
your first book is?
00:47:58.01\00:48:00.98
"That Kind Can Never Change"
00:48:01.01\00:48:02.34
and he wasn't trying
to help me write a book,
00:48:02.38\00:48:04.45
he was denouncing me
00:48:04.48\00:48:05.81
but I have had that opposition
00:48:05.85\00:48:09.85
but, you know,
these very same people,
00:48:09.88\00:48:11.95
years later had come to me
00:48:12.02\00:48:14.06
praising the
Lord for my testimony
00:48:14.12\00:48:15.79
because even though they
were life-long Christians,
00:48:15.82\00:48:19.43
they now saw God
in a different light,
00:48:19.46\00:48:22.16
they saw the power of God that
they hadn't understood before.
00:48:22.20\00:48:24.80
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:48:24.83\00:48:26.17
The fact of the matter
is most of us Christians...
00:48:26.20\00:48:29.64
don't really believe
God can give us victory.
00:48:29.67\00:48:34.84
Yvonne and Jason: Hmmm...
00:48:34.88\00:48:36.28
Unpack that a little bit for
us because that's really true.
00:48:36.31\00:48:40.68
Well, we're
always making excuses
00:48:40.72\00:48:42.92
for each other
and for ourselves,
00:48:42.95\00:48:45.05
"Well, I'm Italian, what
do you expect me to do...
00:48:45.09\00:48:48.16
I'm supposed to
have a temper... "
00:48:48.22\00:48:49.79
or I'm... I'm... you know...
00:48:49.82\00:48:51.56
sorry Italians...
"I'm Irish... I'm red head"
00:48:51.59\00:48:55.26
and "I'm a... " whatever...
00:48:55.30\00:48:56.67
We make all these
excuses and that is exactly
00:48:56.70\00:48:59.73
what they are...
it's rationalization
00:48:59.77\00:49:01.37
and it's making excuses...
00:49:01.40\00:49:03.44
we're afraid to have victory,
00:49:03.47\00:49:05.54
that's something
I've kind of concluded,
00:49:05.57\00:49:08.94
we are really afraid to
have full victory in our lives
00:49:08.98\00:49:13.62
you mean, "Be like Christ,
00:49:13.65\00:49:17.22
huh, What does that mean?"
00:49:17.25\00:49:20.79
Somehow we think
we're going to have to give
00:49:20.82\00:49:23.73
something up,
00:49:23.79\00:49:25.13
and we are going to
have to give something up
00:49:25.16\00:49:28.16
but it's all... bad
stuff that we're giving up...
00:49:28.23\00:49:31.50
but we... we... I don't know...
00:49:31.53\00:49:34.14
do we think that
we're giving up our freedom?
00:49:34.17\00:49:36.81
But, no, we're
not... because we choose
00:49:36.84\00:49:40.91
to be victorious or not,
00:49:40.98\00:49:44.85
God has promised
that power to us,
00:49:44.88\00:49:47.58
Jesus died to give us
that power and assurance
00:49:47.62\00:49:50.92
and yet we hold back
00:49:50.95\00:49:52.89
and we just hang on
to these little things
00:49:52.92\00:49:54.86
saying, "Hmm... but I
like doing this" or that...
00:49:54.89\00:49:58.36
it's just because we're
afraid to live victoriously.
00:49:58.39\00:50:01.86
Yvonne: I think
that's really the point.
00:50:01.90\00:50:03.77
And being
comfortable in our sins...
00:50:03.80\00:50:05.40
Claudia: Yeah...
00:50:05.43\00:50:06.77
You don't want to... you
don't want to step outside
00:50:06.80\00:50:08.60
that comfort zone, saying,
"I've been doing this for years,
00:50:08.67\00:50:11.24
I don't want to give that up. "
00:50:11.27\00:50:12.97
That's right, we or you...
and yet, we point the finger
00:50:13.01\00:50:15.68
at everybody else but
I think, we're afraid.
00:50:15.74\00:50:20.95
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:50:20.98\00:50:22.32
I think that... we
also... I think we're afraid,
00:50:22.35\00:50:25.92
I think also we don't really
accept that God can... can...
00:50:25.95\00:50:32.83
change...
really change the heart
00:50:32.86\00:50:35.86
so that the old
appetites are gone.
00:50:35.90\00:50:38.73
We tend to have
a form of godliness
00:50:38.80\00:50:41.34
denying the power thereof.
00:50:41.37\00:50:43.10
Yvonne: Hmmm...
hmmm... hmm... hmmm...
00:50:43.14\00:50:44.91
what about the children,
how did the children...
00:50:44.97\00:50:49.01
how did your son deal
with Pastor Ron's testimony,
00:50:49.04\00:50:53.01
like... knowing that he
had come out of that lifestyle,
00:50:53.05\00:50:55.42
how did the
children deal with it?
00:50:55.45\00:50:57.49
My son and Ron had had
a very good relationship,
00:50:57.55\00:51:02.19
it was very
interesting to watch.
00:51:02.22\00:51:04.16
Of course, he was going
through the trauma of losing
00:51:04.19\00:51:07.50
a close, in-home relationship
with his own father,
00:51:07.53\00:51:10.77
that was one of
the choices I made
00:51:10.80\00:51:13.37
as a mother going
through a divorce,
00:51:13.40\00:51:15.37
I determined that I
was going to do everything
00:51:15.40\00:51:18.67
I possibly could do to
foster a good relationship
00:51:18.71\00:51:21.94
between my son and his father
00:51:21.98\00:51:23.55
and I didn't want that
to be part of the trauma
00:51:23.61\00:51:30.25
and yet, he and Ron,
00:51:30.29\00:51:33.02
my son and Ron related
very well to each other
00:51:33.05\00:51:36.02
and yes, it was hard, it
was a stepfather coming in
00:51:36.06\00:51:38.99
and there were
things... we had to move away...
00:51:39.03\00:51:41.90
from where he was
growing up and so forth...
00:51:41.93\00:51:45.53
but that could have
happened no matter what...
00:51:45.57\00:51:48.57
so, that didn't
traumatize my son
00:51:48.60\00:51:51.87
and they still have great
respect for each other now,
00:51:51.91\00:51:57.35
as far as that
goes, but after a while...
00:51:57.38\00:52:00.25
my son decided to go
back and live with his father
00:52:00.32\00:52:03.39
so that he could go to
school in the area, in Tennessee
00:52:03.42\00:52:06.96
and so forth, and it's
kind of gone from there
00:52:06.99\00:52:10.73
but then we had our
own two after a short time.
00:52:10.76\00:52:14.43
Yvonne: How did they deal
with knowing about your past?
00:52:14.46\00:52:19.87
We never really talked about it
00:52:19.93\00:52:22.54
until I was
asked to write my book
00:52:22.60\00:52:25.01
and then, I wrote the
book and then, eventually
00:52:25.04\00:52:32.51
I was on Radio Talk
Shows for three years
00:52:32.55\00:52:34.78
and then a very prominent
television evangelist came to me
00:52:34.82\00:52:41.39
and wanted to know if I
was ready for television,
00:52:41.42\00:52:43.86
well, that
startled me because I...
00:52:43.89\00:52:46.13
up to that point I'd been doing
my testimony behind a microphone
00:52:46.16\00:52:50.07
on a telephone and
I didn't have my face
00:52:50.10\00:52:53.67
identified with the issue
00:52:53.70\00:52:56.67
and the book was
written under a pen name.
00:52:56.71\00:52:58.41
but when I realized that I
was going to be on television,
00:52:58.44\00:53:01.94
I thought, now is the
time to talk to our children,
00:53:01.98\00:53:04.58
I think they're
what? Five and six...
00:53:04.61\00:53:06.72
something like that...
they were pretty young,
00:53:06.75\00:53:09.58
so, I'm the one
that had the difficulty
00:53:09.62\00:53:13.22
you know, talking to
the children about it
00:53:13.25\00:53:16.46
and I don't remember
Zachary really reacting,
00:53:16.49\00:53:19.66
you know, they
knew me as their daddy,
00:53:19.69\00:53:21.26
see the past
didn't really matter
00:53:21.30\00:53:23.47
but my
daughter... it was so funny...
00:53:23.50\00:53:25.47
she looked at me
when I got all through...
00:53:25.50\00:53:27.37
and she just said, "So, Dad...
you were married to a man?"
00:53:27.40\00:53:31.54
I said, "Well, kind
of... sort of... yes honey"
00:53:31.57\00:53:36.04
"Well, who is he?"
00:53:36.08\00:53:37.41
And I said, "Well,
it's no one you'd ever know,
00:53:37.45\00:53:40.08
no one you'd ever meet,
00:53:40.12\00:53:41.45
it's just so
long ago in the past"
00:53:41.48\00:53:42.82
she said, "Oh,
okay... " and that was it
00:53:42.85\00:53:44.85
because they
knew me as their dad
00:53:44.89\00:53:47.79
and they have grown up now
hearing me give my testimony
00:53:47.82\00:53:51.63
and this is just their reality,
it doesn't seem to bother them,
00:53:51.66\00:53:55.00
I don't think it does, they...
we have a great relationship.
00:53:55.03\00:53:58.33
This good relationship
and if they had something
00:53:58.37\00:54:02.87
that they doubted
along the way about...
00:54:02.90\00:54:05.51
they may have
talked to someone else,
00:54:05.54\00:54:08.28
they may have
worked it out on their own
00:54:08.31\00:54:10.85
but they have not
made an issue of it
00:54:10.88\00:54:13.31
because they see their
dad as the man that he is.
00:54:13.35\00:54:17.59
Yes, yes, what would
you say to a woman...
00:54:17.62\00:54:22.02
the wife, right now,
00:54:22.06\00:54:23.39
whose husband has
just come out to her
00:54:23.43\00:54:25.83
and she... it's a
different situation
00:54:25.86\00:54:28.50
from yours but she...
00:54:28.53\00:54:31.00
her husband has just come out
00:54:31.03\00:54:33.57
and she's a
Christian and he's a Christian
00:54:33.60\00:54:36.44
and he's
struggling with this area,
00:54:36.47\00:54:39.24
what would you say to
her, what should she do?
00:54:39.27\00:54:41.71
Pray...
00:54:41.74\00:54:47.88
be as kind and
understanding as possible
00:54:47.92\00:54:50.75
and to understand that
this is not a rejection of her.
00:54:50.79\00:54:55.32
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:54:55.36\00:54:56.69
See, I had been rejected
00:54:56.73\00:55:01.53
and another
person... female took my place
00:55:01.56\00:55:07.00
but then the issue of someone
going into the gay lifestyle,
00:55:07.04\00:55:11.07
they're not rejecting you
as a person or even your sex,
00:55:11.11\00:55:15.08
they have problems
that are causing them to go
00:55:15.11\00:55:19.65
that other direction,
00:55:19.68\00:55:21.38
I mean, I can
compete with another woman,
00:55:21.42\00:55:23.89
I can't compete with
another man, or with a man...
00:55:23.92\00:55:26.55
they're not the same
issue. Yvonne: Right, right.
00:55:26.59\00:55:29.56
And so that was
the main thing...
00:55:29.62\00:55:30.99
to realize this is
not necessarily about you,
00:55:31.03\00:55:34.30
you didn't do anything
right or wrong necessarily,
00:55:34.33\00:55:36.90
you didn't create this
00:55:36.93\00:55:38.63
because this
comes from way back...
00:55:38.67\00:55:43.10
the facts are
that many of the people
00:55:43.14\00:55:46.44
in the gay
lifestyle have gone there
00:55:46.47\00:55:49.11
because of
abuse they've suffered
00:55:49.14\00:55:51.75
early in their childhood,
00:55:51.78\00:55:53.11
things they don't
even remember necessarily
00:55:53.15\00:55:55.15
and it doesn't have to be
sexual... it can be physical,
00:55:55.18\00:55:57.75
you know, not
sexually but physical...
00:55:57.79\00:56:01.59
and... or...
emotional... so trauma...
00:56:01.62\00:56:05.33
and I want to say something
on behalf of my former husband.
00:56:05.36\00:56:09.36
He has since found out
00:56:09.40\00:56:11.23
that he is severely
suffering under PTSD
00:56:11.27\00:56:17.47
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:56:17.51\00:56:18.84
Post Traumatic Stress
Syndrome from being in Vietnam
00:56:18.87\00:56:21.91
and he has just
recently discovered this
00:56:21.94\00:56:25.31
and he has been through
hours and hours of counseling
00:56:25.35\00:56:28.85
and has been told
by those counselors
00:56:28.88\00:56:32.45
that with what he was
dealing with in his life,
00:56:32.49\00:56:34.99
there's no way we had a chance
00:56:35.02\00:56:36.36
of being
successful as a married couple
00:56:36.39\00:56:39.19
and so he's doing his
part now to help others
00:56:39.23\00:56:42.46
that are dealing
with the same problem
00:56:42.50\00:56:44.80
and it is a huge
problem in our Country,
00:56:44.83\00:56:47.07
now PTSD can be a problem from
some event in your childhood
00:56:47.10\00:56:53.01
or any time in your life,
00:56:53.04\00:56:54.54
it doesn't have to be
because you went off to war.
00:56:54.58\00:56:55.91
Yvonne: Right, right...
00:56:55.94\00:56:57.28
Okay, and so that affects
much of what we do as well.
00:56:57.31\00:57:00.98
Wow! well thank you so much...
00:57:01.02\00:57:03.22
the two of you...
have really been a blessing
00:57:03.25\00:57:06.09
and brought some
really interesting insights
00:57:06.12\00:57:09.26
into the whole situation,
00:57:09.32\00:57:10.99
we thank you so
much and thank you Jay...
00:57:11.06\00:57:13.29
Jason: You're welcome...
00:57:13.33\00:57:14.66
Yvonne: Thank
you for being with us
00:57:14.70\00:57:16.46
and thank you
for being with us...
00:57:16.53\00:57:18.23
we want you to know that
Brother Ron here has books,
00:57:18.30\00:57:22.34
if you go to
comingoutministries. org
00:57:22.40\00:57:25.21
or dot com?
00:57:25.27\00:57:26.61
Ron: dot org Yvonne: dot org
00:57:26.64\00:57:28.04
comingoutministries. org
00:57:28.08\00:57:29.64
Thanks for joining
us, join us next time
00:57:29.68\00:57:32.58
because it just wouldn't
be the same... without you.
00:57:32.61\00:57:35.05