The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.30
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.37\00:00:05.30
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.33\00:00:09.37
Once gay... always gay?
00:00:09.40\00:00:11.94
Stay tuned to meet some
folks who don't see it that way.
00:00:11.97\00:00:15.31
My name is Yvonne Lewis
00:00:15.34\00:00:16.91
and you're
watching Urban Report.
00:00:16.95\00:00:18.81
Hello and
welcome to Urban Report.
00:00:41.50\00:00:43.94
Our guests today
are members of the
00:00:43.97\00:00:45.87
'Coming Out' Ministries Team.
00:00:45.91\00:00:47.64
Jason and I had a
chance to talk with them
00:00:47.68\00:00:50.18
when they came here to host
a season's worth of programming
00:00:50.21\00:00:53.48
on Pure Choices which is
00:00:53.52\00:00:55.55
Dare to Dream's
program on sexual purity.
00:00:55.58\00:00:57.75
Take a look.
00:00:57.79\00:01:00.29
I am so happy to be sitting here
00:01:00.36\00:01:03.32
with the 'Coming
Out' Ministries Team
00:01:03.36\00:01:05.36
on the set of Pure
Choices because they just did a
00:01:05.39\00:01:07.93
whole series of programs for you
to enjoy... with Jason, yea...
00:01:07.96\00:01:14.14
and we are going to be talking
to this wonderful team today
00:01:14.17\00:01:18.07
because what they bring
00:01:18.11\00:01:20.71
is something so unique
00:01:20.74\00:01:22.68
and so God-inspired
00:01:22.71\00:01:24.58
that I know that
you're going to be blessed
00:01:24.61\00:01:26.75
so, let's just kind
of go down the line...
00:01:26.78\00:01:28.88
I'm going to
start with Danielle,
00:01:28.92\00:01:30.25
we're going to go down the line
and find out who you are and...
00:01:30.29\00:01:34.62
just... before we go
into your testimonies,
00:01:34.69\00:01:36.52
just give us your
name and where you're from.
00:01:36.56\00:01:38.09
Sure, I'm Danielle Harrison and
I'm currently living in Georgia.
00:01:38.13\00:01:41.53
Yvonne: Okay.
00:01:41.56\00:01:42.90
And I'm Ron Woolsey and
I'm pastoring in Arkansas.
00:01:42.93\00:01:45.87
Yvonne: Great.
00:01:45.90\00:01:47.34
I'm Wayne Blakely and I
live in Vancouver, Washington.
00:01:47.37\00:01:49.30
Yvonne: Great.
00:01:49.34\00:01:50.67
Michael Carducci and
I'm from East Tennessee.
00:01:50.71\00:01:52.91
Yea, you know,
when I first met...
00:01:52.94\00:01:57.11
I first met
Wayne and Mike, right?
00:01:57.15\00:02:00.65
Was it Wayne and Mike and
00:02:00.68\00:02:02.02
you had a couple more
people on your team at the time.
00:02:02.05\00:02:04.85
Mike: Ron was with us.
00:02:04.89\00:02:06.22
But I wasn't... Ron wasn't
with you... the day I met you,
00:02:06.25\00:02:10.09
I don't think... at ASI?
00:02:10.13\00:02:11.99
He might have been on the team
00:02:12.03\00:02:13.36
but I don't think he was
there the day that I met you.
00:02:13.40\00:02:15.30
Ron: I wasn't at the Booth...
Mike: He wasn't that far back...
00:02:15.33\00:02:17.83
I'm going all the way
back and I got to talk to you
00:02:17.87\00:02:22.17
about what you were
doing and I felt like...
00:02:22.20\00:02:24.87
this is a "God thing... "
00:02:24.91\00:02:26.68
this is
counteracting the counterfeit
00:02:26.71\00:02:30.88
because your
ministry is a ministry to...
00:02:30.91\00:02:34.82
people who were living
the homosexual lifestyle
00:02:34.85\00:02:38.35
and so... I'd like to
just kind of go down the line
00:02:38.39\00:02:41.92
and find out a bit
about your testimony...
00:02:41.96\00:02:45.69
how you got to where
you are now... in Jesus
00:02:45.73\00:02:49.40
so let's start
with you Danielle.
00:02:49.43\00:02:50.77
Sure, well, when I came into the
family environment in my home,
00:02:50.80\00:02:55.20
my parents were
really in Development
00:02:55.24\00:02:57.01
in a neighboring town and
00:02:57.04\00:02:58.77
it was there that I met a
girl who lived down the street
00:02:58.84\00:03:00.84
and she was actually
being sexually abused
00:03:00.88\00:03:03.71
by someone else in her life
00:03:03.75\00:03:05.08
and so she was
learning things about her body
00:03:05.11\00:03:07.45
that she shouldn't have known
00:03:07.48\00:03:08.82
and she started
trying those things with me.
00:03:08.85\00:03:10.99
So, I was probably
about seven or eight
00:03:11.02\00:03:13.66
when I started interacting
with this same sex, actually,
00:03:13.69\00:03:16.76
and so, of course, this opened
up the door for other addictions
00:03:16.79\00:03:21.30
and other sexual
sins down the road.
00:03:21.33\00:03:23.50
Masturbation soon
became an addiction for me
00:03:23.53\00:03:26.74
at that tender
young age and I came out
00:03:26.77\00:03:30.27
as bisexual... in...
00:03:30.31\00:03:32.47
well, I guess it was about
15-years old in high school
00:03:32.51\00:03:35.58
and I remember my
dad sitting me down
00:03:35.61\00:03:39.61
and telling me that it
was okay for me to be who I am
00:03:39.65\00:03:43.49
and he would still love me
00:03:43.52\00:03:44.99
and he didn't say,
"It's okay if you're gay... "
00:03:45.05\00:03:49.82
but we basically both knew
that's what he was talking about
00:03:49.86\00:03:53.43
so my life took on a whole
new level of freedom after that
00:03:53.50\00:03:57.00
and I was about 16 when
that conversation happened.
00:03:57.03\00:03:59.90
Where were you
spiritually during this time?
00:03:59.93\00:04:02.47
I had been exposed to
Christianity... growing up...
00:04:02.50\00:04:06.27
baptized at the age of 9
00:04:06.31\00:04:08.34
but it wasn't really
a converted experience,
00:04:08.38\00:04:11.65
it was just... "this is what
you do when you love Jesus. "
00:04:11.68\00:04:14.15
It was at a local Baptist Church
00:04:14.22\00:04:16.38
that I'd gone to, off
and on with a family friend
00:04:16.45\00:04:18.75
and a few years before
that conversation happened,
00:04:18.79\00:04:22.52
we had moved in next
door to an Adventist family...
00:04:22.56\00:04:26.23
a Christian family,
and my sister had...
00:04:26.26\00:04:28.86
probably around that
time was being baptized
00:04:28.90\00:04:31.50
into the Adventist church
00:04:31.53\00:04:33.30
when I was positioning myself
to walk out into the world...
00:04:33.34\00:04:36.84
and I think that my
identity and my sexual identity
00:04:36.91\00:04:41.21
had a lot to do with that.
00:04:41.24\00:04:42.84
So, I wandered in the
wilderness for a few years
00:04:42.88\00:04:47.12
and I realized that that wasn't
what I had hoped it to be.
00:04:47.15\00:04:51.02
I ended up in a pretty dark
and scary place at the end of it
00:04:51.05\00:04:54.86
and the Lord... He
helped me to see my need.
00:04:54.89\00:05:00.33
How did you find Him?
00:05:00.40\00:05:01.90
Well, that sister who
had become an Adventist...
00:05:01.93\00:05:05.40
she went out to an
Adventist Health Institution
00:05:05.43\00:05:08.44
with her husband so that
he could do an internship
00:05:08.47\00:05:11.41
on the farm out
there for the summer
00:05:11.44\00:05:13.44
and they invited
me to go with them
00:05:13.48\00:05:15.38
and I just expected to
be there for six months
00:05:15.41\00:05:18.31
to work on the
farm for a little while
00:05:18.35\00:05:20.08
but the Lord really met me there
00:05:20.12\00:05:21.55
and at this point I had
walked away from that dark place
00:05:21.58\00:05:24.72
and was searching spiritually
00:05:24.75\00:05:26.09
and I really met
Jesus Christ there
00:05:26.12\00:05:28.16
I really started to
develop a relationship with Him
00:05:28.19\00:05:31.06
and understand who He was.
00:05:31.09\00:05:32.83
And I was baptized
in September of 2012
00:05:32.86\00:05:37.07
and it was after that
that the Lord just started
00:05:37.13\00:05:40.00
opening up doors for
me to share my testimony
00:05:40.04\00:05:42.40
in different
churches and different venues
00:05:42.44\00:05:44.81
and while
'Coming Out' Ministries
00:05:44.84\00:05:46.84
was basically being formed,
00:05:46.88\00:05:48.84
that's when I was turning away
from the world and all of that
00:05:48.88\00:05:53.68
so it was 2014 in May that I
started working with the guys
00:05:53.72\00:05:58.15
so I'm a new
addition to the team.
00:05:58.19\00:05:59.55
You're the baby of the team.
00:05:59.59\00:06:01.09
Danielle: Yes,
on multiple levels.
00:06:01.12\00:06:03.66
Yeah, yeah, right, right...
that's great, thank you.
00:06:03.69\00:06:07.53
So, what was it like...
00:06:07.56\00:06:08.96
what was it like... experiencing
it from the church side?
00:06:09.00\00:06:14.57
Were people
nurturing... did they accept you
00:06:14.60\00:06:18.24
or did they... were
they criticizing you
00:06:18.27\00:06:21.88
or how was that?
00:06:21.91\00:06:23.24
As far as... where
I was in my journey
00:06:23.31\00:06:26.25
like... as I was
coming into the church?
00:06:26.28\00:06:28.65
Jason: As you were
coming into the church.
00:06:28.68\00:06:31.02
You know, the
place that I went was
00:06:31.05\00:06:33.89
just what God knew that I needed
00:06:33.92\00:06:36.73
and when I went there,
00:06:36.76\00:06:38.73
nobody knew about
my sexual preference,
00:06:38.76\00:06:42.43
they knew that I was
in a pretty abstract place
00:06:42.46\00:06:47.17
in my spiritual understanding
00:06:47.24\00:06:49.04
and I remember expecting them
to start treating me differently
00:06:49.10\00:06:52.84
once they learned
that I wasn't a Christian.
00:06:52.87\00:06:54.21
I remember the morning I
was sitting with the doctor
00:06:54.24\00:06:56.95
and his family in
their home having breakfast
00:06:56.98\00:06:58.91
and he asked me if I was a
Christian and what I believed
00:06:58.95\00:07:01.88
and I thought,
"Oh, here we go... "
00:07:01.92\00:07:03.82
they've all been
really nice so far
00:07:03.89\00:07:05.65
but this is going
to be the end of that
00:07:05.69\00:07:07.66
but it wasn't...
that's not what happened
00:07:07.72\00:07:09.66
they nurtured me even more,
00:07:09.69\00:07:12.06
they just scooped
me in under their wing
00:07:12.09\00:07:14.20
and they met me where I
was at, even in the mess,
00:07:14.23\00:07:17.37
they were willing to
wade through the mess with me
00:07:17.43\00:07:20.54
and relate to
me where they could
00:07:20.57\00:07:23.00
and walk with me through it
and God knew that I needed that
00:07:23.04\00:07:26.37
especially, because I
had seen a lot of hypocrisy
00:07:26.44\00:07:29.18
in the realm of
Christianity when I was younger
00:07:29.21\00:07:31.91
and that was a
lot of the reason why
00:07:31.95\00:07:33.28
I didn't want
anything to do with the church.
00:07:33.31\00:07:35.42
And that's a blessing, I
think that a lot of times
00:07:35.48\00:07:39.02
the common misconception is that
00:07:39.05\00:07:40.39
as Christians we don't
condone homosexuality...
00:07:40.42\00:07:44.79
we don't condone that
behavior because it's not...
00:07:44.83\00:07:47.33
in the Bible...
God doesn't condone it
00:07:47.36\00:07:50.10
but I think that
it's viewed by the world
00:07:50.13\00:07:52.83
that we are against the people,
00:07:52.87\00:07:57.97
it's not the
person... it's the sin...
00:07:58.01\00:08:01.61
so we love the
person and the people...
00:08:01.64\00:08:05.51
but we hate the
sin... as God would say
00:08:05.55\00:08:09.32
it's just like a heterosexual
person being promiscuous
00:08:09.35\00:08:12.99
or if you had a kid that steals
00:08:13.02\00:08:17.73
or is a murderer
or something like that
00:08:17.79\00:08:20.26
like you love
your son or daughter
00:08:20.30\00:08:23.80
but you don't like or
condone what they're doing.
00:08:23.83\00:08:26.47
Danielle: Amen.
00:08:26.50\00:08:27.84
But it's interesting that
the Christian church, I think,
00:08:27.87\00:08:30.31
as a whole... has
given that representation
00:08:30.34\00:08:33.38
of this "hate" thing.
00:08:33.41\00:08:34.78
You know, I learned
that one negative comment
00:08:34.81\00:08:37.48
can destroy ten good comments
00:08:37.51\00:08:39.48
and so the voice that we heard
00:08:39.51\00:08:41.38
as we were walking
in the gay culture was
00:08:41.42\00:08:44.19
that, you know,
Christianity hated queers,
00:08:44.22\00:08:46.25
you know... and that
was the message we got
00:08:46.29\00:08:48.29
in and out of the
church at the time.
00:08:48.32\00:08:49.79
So, I think the Christian church
has some responsibility to take
00:08:49.82\00:08:54.20
for the message that
they've been receiving.
00:08:54.23\00:08:56.36
Even the terminology "queers"
like, it made me kind of
00:08:56.40\00:09:01.87
cringe a bit because now
it's part of the LGBT cue...
00:09:01.90\00:09:08.28
categorization and that...
to even introduce that word,
00:09:08.31\00:09:14.45
is like... it's not a
pejorative anymore, is it?
00:09:14.48\00:09:17.79
I thought that was weird too
00:09:17.82\00:09:20.66
because it has always been
considered a derogatory term.
00:09:20.69\00:09:23.79
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah.
00:09:23.83\00:09:25.16
Jason: But I guess
it's like the "N" word...
00:09:25.19\00:09:28.13
and recognizing it
can... and stuff like that.
00:09:28.16\00:09:29.76
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, interesting.
00:09:29.80\00:09:32.40
Ron, tell us a little
bit about your journey.
00:09:32.43\00:09:34.97
Well, I grew up in a
very spiritual environment
00:09:35.00\00:09:38.61
and I was a
spiritual young person,
00:09:38.64\00:09:40.38
I grew up though with
a very deep dark secret
00:09:40.41\00:09:43.78
of having been molested
when I was four-years old
00:09:43.81\00:09:47.12
and that left me very confused
throughout my life... growing up
00:09:47.15\00:09:51.52
but I wanted to be a Christian
00:09:51.55\00:09:57.59
and I didn't know
anyone else who had
00:09:57.63\00:10:00.43
the same struggle that I did
00:10:00.50\00:10:01.83
and the same-sex
attractions and all of that,
00:10:01.86\00:10:04.43
so I masked it,
I think, very well,
00:10:04.50\00:10:07.60
no one ever knew
I'd been molested
00:10:07.64\00:10:10.71
and I was repeatedly
violated in grade school
00:10:10.74\00:10:13.81
because once, I think, a victim,
it's easy to be victimized again
00:10:13.84\00:10:19.21
it's hard to say, "No,"
you don't know what to do
00:10:19.25\00:10:22.08
and so you just kind
of freeze and just endure
00:10:22.15\00:10:27.42
but I chose to go
to Christian schools
00:10:27.46\00:10:32.69
and to be a student missionary,
00:10:32.76\00:10:34.86
I chose to marry thinking
that that would be the solution
00:10:34.90\00:10:39.23
to all of my sexual confusion
00:10:39.27\00:10:41.97
and I strongly
encourage people today...
00:10:42.00\00:10:45.11
young people today...
don't be deceived into thinking
00:10:45.14\00:10:48.28
that marriage is the
solution to anything.
00:10:48.31\00:10:50.85
It can be the beginning of woes
00:10:50.88\00:10:53.55
if you're not
married to the right person
00:10:53.58\00:10:55.88
for the right reason
and with God's blessing
00:10:55.92\00:10:58.55
but I did marry a
lovely, Christian lady...
00:10:58.59\00:11:01.16
I wanted to have a Christian
home and a Christian family
00:11:01.22\00:11:04.59
and we had a couple
of children together
00:11:04.66\00:11:07.56
but my confusion
just was intensified
00:11:07.60\00:11:10.43
and so, I ended up
wrecking up my marriage
00:11:10.47\00:11:14.77
and fell
headlong into the gay life
00:11:14.80\00:11:18.41
but what is so
startling to many people
00:11:18.44\00:11:22.04
is that I trained to be a...
00:11:22.08\00:11:24.51
I was studying to
be a medical missionary
00:11:24.55\00:11:27.88
so I had a degree in Theology
and graduated with honors
00:11:27.92\00:11:32.12
and so that's why so
many people were shocked
00:11:32.15\00:11:35.32
when I went into the gay life
rather than going into ministry
00:11:35.36\00:11:38.63
or going on with
my medical training
00:11:38.66\00:11:40.83
so I lived many
years in the gay life...
00:11:40.86\00:11:43.67
You went back to
school... for Theology
00:11:43.70\00:11:46.47
after the
marriage was dissolved?
00:11:46.50\00:11:48.87
No, I had the degree in
Theology while I was married
00:11:48.90\00:11:52.67
and... but when I
was called into ministry
00:11:52.71\00:11:57.55
it kind of startled me because
I didn't feel worthy of it
00:11:57.58\00:12:00.88
because of my mental struggle
00:12:00.92\00:12:02.45
so I wouldn't
accept a call into ministry
00:12:02.48\00:12:05.29
and then I ended up
just breaking up the marriage
00:12:05.32\00:12:08.32
and going into the gay life.
00:12:08.39\00:12:10.33
So I lost my
family in my youth...
00:12:10.36\00:12:12.89
and spent many years in
the gay life... blaming God
00:12:12.93\00:12:17.13
because even counselors advised
00:12:17.17\00:12:21.50
that I was someone
who could not be changed
00:12:21.57\00:12:24.31
and these were
primarily Christian counselors
00:12:24.37\00:12:27.08
and even pastors
00:12:27.14\00:12:28.48
so I went into the world very
bitter and angry against God
00:12:28.51\00:12:31.98
and yet I was also quite
frustrated with this concept
00:12:32.01\00:12:35.78
that God was impotent
00:12:35.82\00:12:37.39
that He could not
change or save someone like me
00:12:37.42\00:12:40.92
because I knew
that He was omnipotent
00:12:40.96\00:12:44.23
but yet this concept
made Him appear impotent.
00:12:44.26\00:12:49.00
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:12:49.03\00:12:50.37
So eventually, with
this great frustration,
00:12:50.40\00:12:53.40
I turned to the Word of God.
00:12:53.44\00:12:54.77
I wanted to find
answers... not for professors
00:12:54.80\00:12:57.87
but for myself...
for my own salvation
00:12:57.91\00:13:01.01
and it's just really
fascinating to me now
00:13:01.04\00:13:04.15
to realize that
everything I needed
00:13:04.18\00:13:06.78
was right there all the time,
00:13:06.82\00:13:08.15
it's right there
in the Word of God,
00:13:08.18\00:13:09.55
I found every answer
to all of my gay questions
00:13:09.58\00:13:13.39
in the Word of God
00:13:13.46\00:13:14.82
to the point that I
could turn and walk away.
00:13:14.86\00:13:17.69
That is... the fact
that you can even say that,
00:13:17.73\00:13:20.56
that you could
turn and walk away...
00:13:20.60\00:13:22.43
in a prevailing ideology
now that you're "born this way,"
00:13:22.46\00:13:28.70
this is who you are,
accept it, embrace it,
00:13:28.74\00:13:32.67
share it, promote
it, I mean, really...
00:13:32.71\00:13:36.61
it's... this whole concept
of, "you could walk away"
00:13:36.64\00:13:41.55
all of you... could walk away...
00:13:41.58\00:13:43.55
is so unheard of and I want to
explore some more of that later
00:13:43.59\00:13:48.12
but that... to me... that is...
00:13:48.16\00:13:50.56
it goes against...
you're going against the tide.
00:13:50.59\00:13:53.93
Yeah, everything that's...
00:13:53.96\00:13:55.30
that the
Community has been saying...
00:13:55.33\00:13:58.33
you just
erased... eradicated that.
00:13:58.37\00:14:01.47
Well, I could have invented
those arguments, I mean,
00:14:01.50\00:14:03.77
those were all
arguments that I made,
00:14:03.81\00:14:05.44
every argument
that you hear today,
00:14:05.47\00:14:07.08
were arguments that
I made... I defended...
00:14:07.11\00:14:10.98
I was not convinced myself
00:14:11.01\00:14:13.11
but I could
convince other people.
00:14:13.18\00:14:15.25
But in turning and walking
away, I need to make it clear
00:14:15.28\00:14:18.15
that does not mean
"without temptation"
00:14:18.19\00:14:20.19
because when I walked
away, it was a fierce struggle
00:14:20.22\00:14:23.69
but I learned to love
Jesus more than my partner.
00:14:23.73\00:14:26.90
I was in love with
two men, there for a while
00:14:26.93\00:14:30.07
that as I beheld
Jesus, I became...
00:14:30.10\00:14:32.17
I realized that I loved Jesus
more and I had to make a choice.
00:14:32.20\00:14:35.70
So, yes, I struggled with
great temptation after that
00:14:35.74\00:14:39.77
but as I continued
to walk towards the Lord
00:14:39.81\00:14:44.75
and away from the old life,
I was surprised at how quickly
00:14:44.78\00:14:48.75
my new life took
hold... within one year
00:14:48.78\00:14:52.92
I was married again to
a lovely Christian woman
00:14:52.95\00:14:57.43
and we now have
two more children,
00:14:57.46\00:15:00.30
the very night I was baptized,
I was invited into ministry...
00:15:00.36\00:15:04.47
well, I was invited to
preach the next Sabbath
00:15:04.50\00:15:07.87
and that was 24 years ago
00:15:07.90\00:15:10.31
and I've been in the pulpit ever
since the night I was baptized
00:15:10.34\00:15:13.68
and I now pastor
two churches in Arkansas
00:15:13.71\00:15:17.68
when I'm not on the road
with 'Coming Out' Ministries
00:15:17.71\00:15:21.32
or doing my concert
ministry and what I had read...
00:15:21.35\00:15:24.92
one of the
things that I had read
00:15:24.95\00:15:26.49
that really
helped change my life
00:15:26.55\00:15:27.99
was to the effect that there's
nothing that God expects of us,
00:15:28.02\00:15:31.63
it is not for our
own fulfillment and joy
00:15:31.66\00:15:34.66
and that His plan for our lives
00:15:34.70\00:15:37.83
far exceeds anything we
could even imagine for ourselves
00:15:37.87\00:15:41.10
and that's my testimony today
00:15:41.14\00:15:43.47
that my life today
does far exceed anything
00:15:43.51\00:15:46.71
that I ever
experienced in the gay life
00:15:46.78\00:15:49.88
and I think I can
speak for all of us,
00:15:49.94\00:15:52.98
we've been on both sides
and we're staying on this side
00:15:53.01\00:15:56.55
because we know...
we see this side...
00:15:56.58\00:15:59.35
God's side is so much
better than anything that we...
00:15:59.39\00:16:03.93
that we were
addicted to in the world.
00:16:03.96\00:16:08.03
So, when you... when
you were in that state of
00:16:08.06\00:16:13.64
embracing "who you
were" and actually just...
00:16:13.70\00:16:19.21
just into that whole lifestyle,
was there happiness there?
00:16:19.24\00:16:25.21
Was there fulfillment there?
What was the prevailing feeling
00:16:25.25\00:16:31.19
that you had when
you were embracing it?
00:16:31.22\00:16:34.56
When you were living...
00:16:34.59\00:16:35.99
when you were
full blown out there?
00:16:36.02\00:16:37.63
Well, there's a lot of
fun, there's a lot of excitement
00:16:37.66\00:16:41.10
and I filled my life with
everything that I could think of
00:16:41.13\00:16:46.20
in entertainment, in sports,
hand-gliding, roller-blading,
00:16:46.23\00:16:51.24
biking, going to
the beach, snow skiing,
00:16:51.27\00:16:53.81
I kept my life very, very busy
00:16:53.84\00:16:55.84
but in between
some of those times,
00:16:55.88\00:16:59.61
there was great loneliness,
heartache, heart break,
00:16:59.68\00:17:01.78
depression and all of that
00:17:01.82\00:17:04.65
but the focus of that
kind of life, in my experience,
00:17:04.69\00:17:09.06
was self... self-gratification
00:17:09.09\00:17:12.19
and I filled my life
with things that pleased me
00:17:12.23\00:17:16.63
and that's empty...
that is not fulfilling
00:17:16.67\00:17:19.80
so I had fun and
excitement and happiness
00:17:19.83\00:17:22.90
but I did not have lasting
joy and peace and assurance
00:17:22.97\00:17:27.28
which I now have.
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:17:27.34\00:17:30.35
Amen... Amen.
00:17:30.38\00:17:32.11
What would you say was so
binding about the lifestyle,
00:17:32.15\00:17:34.75
like, what is it that
causes a lot of people to
00:17:34.78\00:17:38.32
stay and stick
with that lifestyle?
00:17:38.35\00:17:40.76
It's addiction... it is
absolutely an addiction.
00:17:40.79\00:17:44.56
That self-gratification,
the stimulus, the pleasure,
00:17:44.59\00:17:48.36
but... and I can say that
00:17:48.40\00:17:50.97
very dogmatically
if I can use that term,
00:17:51.00\00:17:54.77
because the Bible talks
about the bondage of sin.
00:17:54.80\00:17:59.24
Sin is addictive and
today... homosexual behavior
00:17:59.27\00:18:03.71
is being referred
to... in many circles as...
00:18:03.75\00:18:07.65
"the
experimental drug of this age"
00:18:07.68\00:18:10.82
and people... because
it's being so celebrated
00:18:10.85\00:18:14.59
and promoted,
00:18:14.62\00:18:16.42
people are actually
experimenting with it
00:18:16.49\00:18:19.49
having no idea how
addictive it can be.
00:18:19.53\00:18:22.50
Hmmm... would you
all say the same thing
00:18:22.53\00:18:25.50
that that's what kept
you in that lifestyle?
00:18:25.53\00:18:28.50
My first reaction
was... feelings...
00:18:28.54\00:18:31.21
the whole Movement for
me was based on feelings
00:18:31.24\00:18:34.71
and I've been repressed for
so long that all of a sudden,
00:18:34.74\00:18:38.11
now I can express my feelings
00:18:38.15\00:18:40.02
and that was part of the
addictive drive... was...
00:18:40.05\00:18:43.02
it was all driven by
feelings and that was...
00:18:43.08\00:18:45.49
made it even harder
coming out on the other side
00:18:45.52\00:18:47.92
is recognizing
truth versus feelings.
00:18:47.96\00:18:50.13
Yvonne: Hmmm...
00:18:50.16\00:18:51.49
Ron: That's a good point.
00:18:51.53\00:18:52.99
Well, I'll tell you that
when people think of addiction
00:18:53.06\00:18:56.33
they think, "Oh, so they were
just a bunch of sex maniacs"
00:18:56.36\00:19:00.40
the addiction isn't just...
it isn't just of a sexual nature
00:19:00.44\00:19:04.44
it is because you
suffered greatly in your life...
00:19:04.47\00:19:07.88
from... like being
bullied or harassed
00:19:07.91\00:19:11.38
or having great depression
00:19:11.41\00:19:13.05
and now you're
addicted to excitement...
00:19:13.11\00:19:16.48
is really what it is
and I would steer clear
00:19:16.52\00:19:19.89
today from using
the term, "Lifestyle"
00:19:19.95\00:19:23.73
because many gays are
taking offense to that today
00:19:23.76\00:19:27.63
because we're lumping them
all into the same activities.
00:19:27.66\00:19:30.33
Not everybody participates
in the same activities
00:19:30.37\00:19:33.64
as I did... when I was
living in the gay culture
00:19:33.67\00:19:36.84
and I would like to
try to shift people today
00:19:36.91\00:19:39.71
in helping them
realize it is a culture,
00:19:39.74\00:19:42.48
just like heterosexuality
would be considered...
00:19:42.51\00:19:44.45
a culture of
heterosexuals rather than...
00:19:44.48\00:19:46.61
we don't call it a
heterosexual lifestyle
00:19:46.68\00:19:48.78
and so gays are
taking great offense
00:19:48.82\00:19:51.69
to the term, "Lifestyle" today
00:19:51.72\00:19:53.99
sometimes shifting...
if you talk about culture,
00:19:54.02\00:19:56.83
it's more inclusive
of all kinds of people
00:19:56.86\00:19:59.09
with all kinds of feelings and
things that they participate in.
00:19:59.13\00:20:03.13
But there is nothing
actually in the gay culture
00:20:03.16\00:20:07.67
that is appropriate from the
standpoint of a Biblical nature.
00:20:07.70\00:20:14.38
What was your journey like?
00:20:14.44\00:20:16.14
Well, you know,
brokenness comes in
00:20:16.18\00:20:18.28
all kinds of
different shapes and sizes
00:20:18.31\00:20:20.35
and so, for the Viewer,
00:20:20.42\00:20:22.02
I would like
Viewers to think about
00:20:22.05\00:20:24.22
what your own
brokenness might be
00:20:24.25\00:20:26.35
and everyone is
looking for a pat answer
00:20:26.39\00:20:29.89
for what causes homosexuality
00:20:29.92\00:20:31.83
so this is just our
stories that we're sharing
00:20:31.86\00:20:34.53
and we realize that
homosexuality comes from
00:20:34.56\00:20:37.20
many different
kinds of scenarios
00:20:37.23\00:20:40.90
and situations in your life,
00:20:40.94\00:20:42.54
mine was such that my
birth mother was expecting
00:20:42.57\00:20:46.37
and only desiring
to have a baby girl,
00:20:46.41\00:20:49.48
she didn't want a boy
under any circumstances
00:20:49.51\00:20:52.48
and so, when I was
born, she was angry
00:20:52.51\00:20:55.28
before I was two-years old,
00:20:55.32\00:20:56.65
she had broken my arm
in two different places
00:20:56.69\00:20:58.59
on two different occasions
00:20:58.62\00:20:59.95
and so, I was
adopted by a Christian family
00:20:59.99\00:21:03.12
and was raised in a Christian
home of which I believe today
00:21:03.16\00:21:06.29
that God took me and
placed me in that environment
00:21:06.33\00:21:09.30
and prepared me for
what He has me doing today.
00:21:09.36\00:21:12.30
The journey wasn't something,
00:21:12.33\00:21:14.60
the fallen
nature isn't something
00:21:14.64\00:21:17.17
that God desired for everyone
00:21:17.21\00:21:18.81
but He knew that each
of us would have a story,
00:21:18.84\00:21:21.41
He knew that it was an
environment he could put me in
00:21:21.44\00:21:24.05
and that... as Deuteronomy says
00:21:24.08\00:21:26.45
that if you're raised in
the way that you should go,
00:21:26.48\00:21:29.35
that one day, you would return
00:21:29.38\00:21:30.99
and so, He knew
that that would happen.
00:21:31.02\00:21:33.12
I endured and suffered
harassment and bullying
00:21:33.15\00:21:37.53
because I was effeminate,
00:21:37.56\00:21:38.99
I wanted to be the
girl that my mother...
00:21:39.03\00:21:40.80
my birth mother wanted me to be
00:21:40.83\00:21:42.43
that would get me
love and acceptance.
00:21:42.46\00:21:44.23
My new parents didn't
understand what was going on
00:21:44.27\00:21:47.54
I was running
around the house screaming,
00:21:47.60\00:21:49.74
"I don't want to be a
boy, I want to be a girl"
00:21:49.77\00:21:51.84
and so I suffered greatly
00:21:51.87\00:21:55.04
all the way through school,
00:21:55.08\00:21:58.18
I thought... if I can get
through 12 years of school
00:21:58.21\00:22:00.48
I'll never step foot
inside another classroom,
00:22:00.52\00:22:02.78
because of the
harassment and the hurt
00:22:02.82\00:22:05.35
that I was
dealing with in my life,
00:22:05.39\00:22:07.62
at the age of 18, I was
working at Loma Linda University
00:22:07.66\00:22:15.23
and I ended up meeting a guy
there who was in the gay culture
00:22:15.26\00:22:19.53
who said to me, "You're gay!"
00:22:19.57\00:22:22.34
And I didn't even know
what he was talking about
00:22:22.37\00:22:25.51
but he sensed... he
could tell from mannerisms
00:22:25.54\00:22:28.64
or from commonalities that...
00:22:28.68\00:22:31.11
he could tell me
that face to face...
00:22:31.15\00:22:32.78
So prior to
that, you had never had
00:22:32.81\00:22:35.55
a same-sex
relationship... prior to that?
00:22:35.58\00:22:38.39
I would say that in growing
up that there were some detours
00:22:38.42\00:22:43.22
in
experimentation and exploration
00:22:43.26\00:22:46.19
and also, what might
be even considered abuse
00:22:46.23\00:22:49.96
as I had heterosexual
boys who were introducing me
00:22:50.00\00:22:54.50
into what
masturbation was all about
00:22:54.57\00:22:56.97
and it was actually at
that point that I thought,
00:22:57.01\00:22:58.97
"Okay, well I'm normal" because
they were engaging with me
00:22:59.01\00:23:01.64
and I was drawn towards men
00:23:01.68\00:23:03.75
but they didn't stay in
that behavior very long,
00:23:03.78\00:23:06.45
they headed off and headed for
for girlfriends and everything
00:23:06.48\00:23:10.45
and I thought,
"What's wrong with me?
00:23:10.49\00:23:11.82
It's not happening, God...
I didn't ask to be this way. "
00:23:11.85\00:23:15.02
And so, here's someone telling
me, "Well... well you're gay"
00:23:15.06\00:23:18.29
and then a couple of
minutes later he says to me,
00:23:18.33\00:23:22.26
"Wayne, Christianity
breeds homosexuality"
00:23:22.30\00:23:26.10
and I said, "Wait a minute,
what are you talking about?"
00:23:26.13\00:23:30.44
"Well," he said,
"you're gay, I'm gay,
00:23:30.51\00:23:32.77
I go to school with other
guys in college that are gay,"
00:23:32.81\00:23:36.21
he said, "You know, the
church has done a great job
00:23:36.24\00:23:38.58
of telling us that homosexual
behavior is sinful... "
00:23:38.61\00:23:41.12
and then they stop
and then they say nothing,
00:23:41.15\00:23:43.99
they say, nothing
about how God can change that
00:23:44.02\00:23:46.86
what's redemptive,
how do we please God,
00:23:46.89\00:23:49.99
nobody did anything
and I think it's because,
00:23:50.03\00:23:53.33
that today, we're
still suffering in this idea
00:23:53.36\00:23:56.60
that the church is still in this
present state of looking at us
00:23:56.67\00:23:59.80
like, "Oh, you guys are...
you guys are the queer ones
00:23:59.83\00:24:02.10
you know... the weird ones,"
00:24:02.14\00:24:03.47
when they're not
looking and saying that,
00:24:03.51\00:24:05.67
yeah, they have things
that they whitewash, like gossip
00:24:05.71\00:24:09.14
and pride and a
whole list of other things
00:24:09.18\00:24:12.55
that are in 1st
Corinthians 6:9 through 11,
00:24:12.61\00:24:15.88
where it talks about, who
will not enter into heaven
00:24:15.92\00:24:18.29
but a lot of those
things we've already whitewashed
00:24:18.32\00:24:20.59
we're trying to do the same
thing today with homosexuality
00:24:20.66\00:24:24.46
by setting it aside and
saying, "You can maintain
00:24:24.49\00:24:27.80
your gay identity even
after you're converted"
00:24:27.83\00:24:30.30
and I note that we're
probably going to talk
00:24:30.33\00:24:32.73
a little bit
about that but for me,
00:24:32.77\00:24:34.64
I then said, "You know
what? I think you're right. "
00:24:34.67\00:24:37.51
And I said, "Okay, God, I
can't do anything about this"
00:24:37.54\00:24:40.31
I said to my parents,
"I'm sorry, this is who I am"
00:24:40.34\00:24:43.08
and they said, "Wayne, we
don't know the causes for this,
00:24:43.11\00:24:45.25
but we love you
and God loves you
00:24:45.28\00:24:47.52
and you'll always be welcome
at home... always know that. "
00:24:47.55\00:24:52.32
and so for the next 40
years... I would live a life
00:24:52.35\00:24:55.86
that was totally
absorbed in the gay culture,
00:24:55.89\00:24:58.36
nothing stopped
me, drugs, promiscuity,
00:24:58.39\00:25:02.03
I lived in 12 years
of male prostitution
00:25:02.06\00:25:05.67
I was looking for somebody
who could affirm that I mattered
00:25:05.70\00:25:09.40
that I belonged
and that I was loved
00:25:09.44\00:25:11.21
and God let me go down that road
00:25:11.24\00:25:14.14
until... not the
church... but God came to me
00:25:14.18\00:25:18.61
one day, when I'm
sitting in my bedroom
00:25:18.65\00:25:21.15
and I'm thinking,
"Where does this end?
00:25:21.18\00:25:23.52
I know God's
Word, I know the Bible,
00:25:23.59\00:25:25.85
my destiny is going to end,
I'm only going to have one life
00:25:25.89\00:25:29.59
because I know this
isn't pleasing to God. "
00:25:29.62\00:25:32.13
To any gay person watching this
that claims to be Christian,
00:25:32.16\00:25:37.30
please go back, please
look at what pleases God,
00:25:37.33\00:25:43.00
because He loves you so much,
00:25:43.07\00:25:46.71
don't be deceived
like in the Garden of Eden
00:25:46.74\00:25:51.21
like Satan was able to do...
by dazzling all kinds of things
00:25:51.25\00:25:54.88
before us and
those things felt good,
00:25:54.92\00:25:57.32
eating the fruit was very tasty
00:25:57.35\00:25:59.35
and it brought on great
knowledge for... like 3 seconds
00:25:59.39\00:26:02.06
and then she was
miserable, right?
00:26:02.09\00:26:03.86
And so, don't come to
Judgment Day and say before God,
00:26:03.89\00:26:08.26
"Oh, well, I did
what I thought was best"
00:26:08.33\00:26:10.37
when you can find what
is best in the Word of God
00:26:10.40\00:26:13.17
and He can tell you
and you can believe it
00:26:13.20\00:26:15.80
and it seems
impossible to walk away
00:26:15.84\00:26:18.07
but He will not let
you down and so I sat there
00:26:18.11\00:26:22.61
and I thought,
"I don't know God,
00:26:22.64\00:26:25.01
I've accused God of being gay,
00:26:25.05\00:26:27.18
He made me gay but... "
00:26:27.22\00:26:28.55
see we blame all kinds of
things on God that God didn't do
00:26:28.58\00:26:30.99
it's because of
our fallen nature,
00:26:31.02\00:26:33.02
it is because of
the deception of Satan
00:26:33.05\00:26:35.79
that people
indulge in pornography,
00:26:35.82\00:26:38.13
indulging in
extra-marital affairs
00:26:38.16\00:26:40.33
and pre-marital
sex and homosexuality
00:26:40.36\00:26:42.50
and masturbation, I mean,
00:26:42.53\00:26:44.17
these are the things
that Satan does, not God.
00:26:44.20\00:26:47.27
Yeah, they come natural
to us because sin is natural
00:26:47.30\00:26:50.81
we're not doing what
God wants and God said,
00:26:50.84\00:26:53.58
"I'm right here,
I'm right here...
00:26:53.61\00:26:55.88
you're finally
starting to think about me,
00:26:55.91\00:26:57.85
I want a relationship with
you, I want to engage with you,
00:26:57.88\00:27:01.12
I want intimacy with you,
00:27:01.15\00:27:02.75
will you give me
your heart... your life?"
00:27:02.78\00:27:04.72
and I was like, "Oh...
oh... I wasn't expecting this
00:27:04.75\00:27:08.99
and I don't want to make
any major decisions right here,"
00:27:09.02\00:27:11.83
so I started immersing
myself into a church environment
00:27:11.89\00:27:14.66
for three months
before I went to the pastor
00:27:14.70\00:27:17.57
who was totally unprepared
for something like this,
00:27:17.60\00:27:20.44
and the church
is still unprepared,
00:27:20.47\00:27:22.44
they were like,
"Well... I wasn't expecting a
00:27:22.47\00:27:25.94
converted homosexual... I
didn't think that was possible"
00:27:25.97\00:27:28.31
you know, we were
like... limiting the Word of God
00:27:28.34\00:27:30.45
and they didn't
know what to tell me
00:27:30.51\00:27:32.65
and so, slam dunk, I
go... down into the water
00:27:32.68\00:27:35.82
and guess what, I
didn't come up straight,
00:27:35.85\00:27:38.92
you know, I still came up...
00:27:38.95\00:27:41.59
and I still had temptations
and attractions towards men
00:27:41.62\00:27:45.53
and I still do
today but God is like...
00:27:45.56\00:27:48.13
"Ah... I'm right here,
I'm right here, I got you"
00:27:48.16\00:27:50.73
and so, He says,
"all I want is your heart
00:27:50.77\00:27:53.37
if you give me your heart,
00:27:53.40\00:27:55.14
I'll walk with
you on this journey
00:27:55.17\00:27:57.14
you can always turn to me,
00:27:57.21\00:27:58.54
at times I'll
probably carry you, Wayne,
00:27:58.57\00:28:00.51
because you'll think
you're going to be alone
00:28:00.54\00:28:02.38
but I will never
leave you or forsake you
00:28:02.41\00:28:04.18
you can't see me... but
you can know that I'm there
00:28:04.21\00:28:07.75
and you can see me spiritually
and know that I am God
00:28:07.78\00:28:10.85
and that I will carry you
through... to the very end
00:28:10.89\00:28:13.92
and so, on my
parents' 67th anniversary,
00:28:13.96\00:28:18.09
I was baptized and I said,
00:28:18.13\00:28:20.36
"Yeah, I want
God's way and not mine. "
00:28:20.40\00:28:22.80
And so, sure, today,
yeah, there are struggles in it
00:28:22.83\00:28:26.70
there are people
inside churches today
00:28:26.74\00:28:29.10
they're just
waiting for you to fall
00:28:29.14\00:28:31.41
because they don't
think that it's possible
00:28:31.44\00:28:33.58
and they try to limit God
and I want to help them to see
00:28:33.61\00:28:38.48
that we can embrace
the gospel of Jesus Christ
00:28:38.51\00:28:40.98
and that we can take on a
new identity in Jesus Christ
00:28:41.02\00:28:44.45
not buried in my temptations
00:28:44.49\00:28:46.45
or anchored to my
temptations and bondage.
00:28:46.49\00:28:48.86
Amen, Wayne,
thank you, that's...
00:28:48.89\00:28:51.53
you guys are just...
it's so inspirational
00:28:51.56\00:28:54.66
because, you know,
there are a lot of things that
00:28:54.73\00:28:56.83
we don't know about...
00:28:56.87\00:29:00.20
we even need to know the right
nomenclature, like, you know,
00:29:00.24\00:29:03.94
we don't know that we
shouldn't say, "gay lifestyle"
00:29:03.97\00:29:06.34
and... versus
gay culture, I mean,
00:29:06.37\00:29:08.94
there are just some things...
so this is educational...
00:29:08.98\00:29:11.08
I mean... for us
and for the Viewers...
00:29:11.11\00:29:13.82
because there are a
lot of things we don't know
00:29:13.85\00:29:16.18
so you're helping us,
because we need to know
00:29:16.25\00:29:17.65
how to reach out to
our brothers and sisters
00:29:17.69\00:29:21.46
that are in that culture,
I almost said, "lifestyle. "
00:29:21.49\00:29:25.83
Wayne: I mean,
we slip, we do too.
00:29:25.86\00:29:27.36
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:27.40\00:29:29.16
Wayne: We have to think about it
00:29:29.20\00:29:30.83
from the perspective
of the gay person, yeah.
00:29:30.87\00:29:34.07
Yes, yes, Mike, tell
us about your journey.
00:29:34.10\00:29:37.51
So, really, I think it
began when I was forty,
00:29:37.54\00:29:40.81
when I came back to
the Lord and I said to God,
00:29:40.88\00:29:44.05
"I want to know how this
happened, I want to know... "
00:29:44.08\00:29:45.71
Came back? So you had been
with Him before and then you...
00:29:45.75\00:29:48.52
Mike: I was raised...
born and raised Catholic
00:29:48.55\00:29:50.92
and then I
converted at 15 to Adventism,
00:29:50.99\00:29:54.12
my first homosexual experience
was actually in Academy
00:29:54.16\00:29:57.43
with a roommate who'd
been to juvenile detention.
00:29:57.46\00:29:59.66
I wanted to follow God,
00:29:59.69\00:30:02.76
I thought that I
had an understanding
00:30:02.83\00:30:04.57
of who God was, but like Ron,
00:30:04.63\00:30:06.03
even with an
education in the Bible,
00:30:06.07\00:30:09.37
I still didn't know how to claim
the merits of a risen Savior.
00:30:09.40\00:30:11.77
I thought I had to be
good to deserve His goodness
00:30:11.81\00:30:14.34
so, I left the church at 20,
00:30:14.38\00:30:16.44
couldn't find a way to bring
00:30:16.48\00:30:18.48
my sexuality and my
spirituality together
00:30:18.51\00:30:20.98
so I walked out of
church and at 40 years old,
00:30:21.02\00:30:23.89
through divine intervention,
00:30:23.92\00:30:26.55
it wasn't the church that called
me up and came and got me,
00:30:26.59\00:30:29.52
it was my sisters'
intercessory prayer,
00:30:29.56\00:30:31.99
two of my
sisters... States apart
00:30:32.03\00:30:34.40
were praying together for their
brother who was completely off,
00:30:34.43\00:30:38.53
and so, at 40 years' old,
00:30:38.60\00:30:40.50
through some
divine circumstances
00:30:40.54\00:30:42.80
I got
baptized... with a boyfriend
00:30:42.84\00:30:45.01
and a sexual addiction
because the pastor didn't know
00:30:45.07\00:30:47.54
what I was struggling
with and I came into this
00:30:47.58\00:30:50.01
evangelistic
series on the last night,
00:30:50.05\00:30:51.78
gave my heart to the Lord
but I was a complete mess.
00:30:51.81\00:30:54.68
I didn't even know how to relate
to men in a non-sexual way
00:30:54.72\00:30:58.15
so, how could...
how could a Savior
00:30:58.22\00:31:00.76
that died for me...
not want me... sexually?
00:31:00.79\00:31:03.49
That's the thing that was
going on inside of my mind,
00:31:03.53\00:31:07.53
so, as I got baptized, the
Lord was moving and He knew
00:31:07.56\00:31:11.60
that I needed to
make a public expression
00:31:11.63\00:31:13.50
of my desire to know Him,
00:31:13.54\00:31:15.64
I didn't care about
the Adventist church
00:31:15.67\00:31:17.27
and to tell you the truth,
00:31:17.31\00:31:18.71
all I knew is that I
was following Jesus Christ
00:31:18.74\00:31:21.88
and Him alone and
I had faith like...
00:31:21.94\00:31:23.61
maybe a strand of
dental floss, that's all I had,
00:31:23.65\00:31:26.01
if somebody would
have gotten in my face
00:31:26.05\00:31:27.82
and said something
about my boyfriend,
00:31:27.85\00:31:29.55
I would have been gone,
and to tell you the truth,
00:31:29.58\00:31:32.15
I probably had a pretty
good chip on my shoulder
00:31:32.22\00:31:34.42
I was hoping
someone would say that
00:31:34.46\00:31:36.29
because then I
could blame God again,
00:31:36.32\00:31:38.46
"Well, see, you
messed up, not me"
00:31:38.49\00:31:40.60
and I couldn't help myself
00:31:40.63\00:31:41.96
but eventually,
because my sister loved me,
00:31:42.00\00:31:45.23
because she didn't
condemn me or my boyfriend,
00:31:45.27\00:31:48.30
she worked side by side with
me in my salon as my assistant,
00:31:48.34\00:31:51.91
I had a salon with my lover,
00:31:51.94\00:31:53.88
I had, you know, other
gay hairdressers in there,
00:31:53.91\00:31:56.71
and what was so amazing...
00:31:56.75\00:31:58.08
I thought she accepted my
gay lifestyle... my gay culture,
00:31:58.11\00:32:01.68
my gay identity,
00:32:01.72\00:32:03.05
so, she was
always kind to my lover,
00:32:03.08\00:32:05.15
she'd invite us
over for holiday meals,
00:32:05.19\00:32:07.26
she never withheld me from
00:32:07.29\00:32:08.79
interacting with my
nephew who was a baby,
00:32:08.82\00:32:11.73
so, she showed me what
true Christian love was
00:32:11.76\00:32:14.63
which I thought was acceptance
when really in actuality,
00:32:14.66\00:32:17.93
secretly she was
praying for my deliverance.
00:32:17.97\00:32:20.74
So, when I came back
to the Lord as a mess,
00:32:20.77\00:32:23.20
eventually the Lord addressed
my boyfriend and I said,
00:32:23.24\00:32:26.68
"If you want... if you
want me out of that life,
00:32:26.71\00:32:30.11
you've got to do it yourself
00:32:30.15\00:32:31.48
because I'm digging up my
heels and I'll prove to you
00:32:31.51\00:32:33.18
if you could just
convert my boyfriend,
00:32:33.21\00:32:34.65
we'd be this
mighty team for you. "
00:32:34.68\00:32:36.05
And you know what?
00:32:36.08\00:32:37.42
God said, "All right,
I'll get right on that... "
00:32:37.45\00:32:39.15
and within three weeks my
boyfriend broke up with me.
00:32:39.19\00:32:41.12
Yvonne: All right "I'll get
right on it and he was gone. "
00:32:41.16\00:32:44.63
I knew that was God intervening,
this peace came over me
00:32:44.66\00:32:48.10
but then when I went home alone,
00:32:48.13\00:32:49.93
and I realized...
"You're telling me God
00:32:49.96\00:32:51.80
that I'll never be in
another relationship again?"
00:32:51.83\00:32:54.64
Not even thinking
change was possible for me,
00:32:54.67\00:32:57.41
I didn't even want it, I
was looking for any lie...
00:32:57.44\00:32:59.94
just tell me a lie so
that I can keep my boyfriend
00:32:59.97\00:33:02.44
and my identity, I
wasn't even interested
00:33:02.48\00:33:05.41
but as I read the Word
of God and I realized now,
00:33:05.45\00:33:08.38
"All right, I
was following Jesus
00:33:08.45\00:33:11.12
and he was the only one
that I could relate to,"
00:33:11.15\00:33:13.69
and I cried out and I said,
00:33:13.72\00:33:15.26
"Why would you
ask me to do that?
00:33:15.29\00:33:17.69
Why would you ask me to
give up everything that I am
00:33:17.73\00:33:20.00
and everything that I've created
because I didn't even think
00:33:20.03\00:33:22.63
that it was possible to
change, I didn't choose this,
00:33:22.66\00:33:24.93
I didn't want this,
but now that I'm here,
00:33:24.97\00:33:27.70
and now I have this great guy,
00:33:27.77\00:33:29.10
why would you ask
me to give that up?"
00:33:29.14\00:33:30.91
And so, for months it
was just me and Jesus Christ.
00:33:30.94\00:33:34.14
I would sob and I
remember thinking to myself,
00:33:34.18\00:33:37.68
I'll never have someone to hold,
00:33:37.71\00:33:40.52
I'll never be able to tell
someone that I love them again,
00:33:40.55\00:33:42.88
but during that time,
00:33:42.92\00:33:44.25
it was only Jesus
that was holding me
00:33:44.29\00:33:46.32
and loving me and filling
that emptiness inside of me
00:33:46.35\00:33:50.19
and I started to revive...
I started to come alive again
00:33:50.23\00:33:53.53
and realize that I don't
have to have a sexual encounter
00:33:53.60\00:33:56.87
to be satisfied, and I
didn't even know that the
00:33:56.90\00:33:59.63
peace of Jesus
Christ could satisfy
00:33:59.67\00:34:02.07
more than an
illicit sexual situation
00:34:02.10\00:34:04.47
and as shocking
as that was to me,
00:34:04.51\00:34:07.24
I really started to desire more
00:34:07.28\00:34:09.98
and when I saw the testimony
of homosexuals that had actually
00:34:10.01\00:34:13.31
changed their lives and
God had moved miraculously
00:34:13.38\00:34:16.99
in their life, then
that was motivation,
00:34:17.05\00:34:18.85
there was a real
feminine guy named Sy Rogers,
00:34:18.89\00:34:21.66
he's been doing
this for many years,
00:34:21.69\00:34:23.59
very feminine... lived as a
woman for a year and a half,
00:34:23.63\00:34:26.29
I struggled with transgenderism
also as a little boy,
00:34:26.33\00:34:28.96
so, as I saw his
testimony, I was so offended
00:34:29.00\00:34:31.93
thinking, "God
converted that nelly person
00:34:31.97\00:34:35.24
or whatever,
effeminate person... "
00:34:35.30\00:34:36.64
but what was so amazing is
as I watched his testimony,
00:34:36.67\00:34:38.61
then all of a sudden I realized,
00:34:38.64\00:34:40.14
"Well, if God
could do it for him,
00:34:40.18\00:34:41.64
then he can
certainly do it for me"
00:34:41.68\00:34:43.55
and that was when, I
started to really go in the
00:34:43.58\00:34:46.55
direction of... "All right Lord,
you said you can heal me... "
00:34:46.58\00:34:49.38
in Ministry of
Healing on page 17,
00:34:49.42\00:34:52.39
on the very first page it says
00:34:52.42\00:34:53.76
that Jesus came to
heal men completely,
00:34:53.79\00:34:55.86
physically,
spiritually and mentally,
00:34:55.89\00:34:58.19
and in the margin of my
book, I put an "H" and a circle
00:34:58.23\00:35:00.96
and said,
"There, it's on you Lord,
00:35:01.00\00:35:03.00
I can't change
who I'm attracted to,
00:35:03.03\00:35:04.97
I can't change my desires,
00:35:05.00\00:35:06.33
but you say you
can... this is on you,"
00:35:06.37\00:35:08.67
and as I started to
claim those promises,
00:35:08.70\00:35:11.21
as I turned those pages,
00:35:11.27\00:35:12.61
divine healing really
started to enter into my life
00:35:12.64\00:35:16.58
and that's been my motivation.
00:35:16.61\00:35:19.31
Amen, you know, what I'm hearing
00:35:19.35\00:35:22.02
from all four of you is that
00:35:22.05\00:35:24.65
there was a place
of brokenness early on
00:35:24.69\00:35:30.26
early on... something happened
that caused you to just get...
00:35:30.33\00:35:37.17
and we all have something
that has gone on in our lives,
00:35:37.20\00:35:41.14
I mean, this is not
like some indictment of you,
00:35:41.17\00:35:44.34
it's just an observation
that early on something happened
00:35:44.37\00:35:49.21
and there was a need for healing
and you sought connection,
00:35:49.24\00:35:54.08
you sought an
answer to the problem...
00:35:54.12\00:35:58.82
the answer
wasn't a sexual thing,
00:35:58.85\00:36:02.89
the problem wasn't a
sexual thing actually...
00:36:02.92\00:36:06.16
what you were doing is
seeking a sexual solution
00:36:06.19\00:36:09.43
to a non-sexual problem.
00:36:09.46\00:36:11.70
That's what... the problem was
00:36:11.73\00:36:13.80
the brokenness, but
you needed the intimacy
00:36:13.84\00:36:17.37
and so you found it
through same-sex attraction
00:36:17.41\00:36:21.01
and what God said to
all of you in a sense is,
00:36:21.04\00:36:24.81
"Let me heal you... let
me... let me fix it... "
00:36:24.85\00:36:28.52
because we all have stuff
that we need to have fixed...
00:36:28.58\00:36:31.19
Jason: And we all
look to fill the void.
00:36:31.25\00:36:32.59
Yvonne: That's right.
00:36:32.62\00:36:33.96
Jason: And a lot of times we'll
look everywhere but Christ,
00:36:33.99\00:36:37.56
I turned... I did drugs
and alcohol and stuff like that
00:36:37.59\00:36:41.46
and so... you look to
all these other things
00:36:41.50\00:36:44.97
but you're still empty,
00:36:45.00\00:36:46.33
and even when
you're making good money
00:36:46.37\00:36:48.30
and have the nice car and the
house and everything like that
00:36:48.34\00:36:51.71
there's still the emptiness...
00:36:51.74\00:36:53.07
there's still the void
that only Jesus can fill.
00:36:53.11\00:36:55.01
You know a lot of
the dominant factors
00:36:55.04\00:36:58.71
that I see in homosexuality is a
00:36:58.75\00:37:01.98
perception of rejection
00:37:02.05\00:37:03.72
and I grew up
feeling rejected by my father
00:37:03.75\00:37:07.26
and rejected by my
peers and we become...
00:37:07.29\00:37:10.29
after years of
dealing with this perception,
00:37:10.33\00:37:13.29
we become hypersensitive to that
00:37:13.33\00:37:15.86
and I think that's
probably one of the reasons
00:37:15.90\00:37:18.97
today we have so
much restriction on speech
00:37:19.00\00:37:22.04
and so forth... because
now, a difference of opinion
00:37:22.07\00:37:25.51
is viewed by the
gay culture as rejection
00:37:25.54\00:37:29.08
and rejection is not nice
in fact, we'll call it hate,
00:37:29.14\00:37:32.78
and we need to be
protected from hate
00:37:32.81\00:37:35.25
so we need to be protected
from a difference of opinion
00:37:35.28\00:37:38.32
even if it's the Word
of God... it's rejection.
00:37:38.35\00:37:41.52
So there's this
feeling of rejection from God,
00:37:41.56\00:37:44.69
from the church and Society,
00:37:44.73\00:37:47.43
from our peers, from
our parents or whatever
00:37:47.46\00:37:50.43
and the sexual fulfillment
that you're talking about
00:37:50.47\00:37:55.50
is a counterfeit way to
deal with that rejection
00:37:55.57\00:37:59.94
because we're now accepted,
someone is accepting us
00:37:59.97\00:38:04.18
and a perverted acceptance
is better than rejection.
00:38:04.21\00:38:08.15
and that's what we
end up dealing with.
00:38:08.18\00:38:10.25
And let's talk
about that a little bit,
00:38:10.29\00:38:12.25
I think that now... you
don't see as much rejection...
00:38:12.29\00:38:15.79
you see more acceptance
and how did that come about?
00:38:15.82\00:38:19.29
How did that shift
in Society to where now
00:38:19.33\00:38:22.60
the gay culture is more
accepted... socially accepted?
00:38:22.66\00:38:28.64
Because church congregations
are taking their cue
00:38:28.70\00:38:32.87
from the gay community
now and so the teaching is...
00:38:32.91\00:38:37.15
is that the imposition of
what the gay community desires
00:38:37.18\00:38:41.38
the "world message... "
00:38:41.42\00:38:42.75
where God says to
come away from the world
00:38:42.78\00:38:44.42
instead of being
a part of the world
00:38:44.45\00:38:45.82
is being mirrored upon churches
00:38:45.85\00:38:47.79
and churches...
in their ignorance...
00:38:47.82\00:38:49.62
instead of digging
and getting the truth,
00:38:49.66\00:38:51.36
the love and truth
message that they can offer,
00:38:51.39\00:38:54.46
they're just saying,
"Okay, okay, I'm sorry
00:38:54.50\00:38:57.50
we hurt you and
that wasn't right
00:38:57.57\00:38:59.73
and so, come on
in and and we... "
00:38:59.77\00:39:02.14
not only do they
accept the sinner
00:39:02.20\00:39:04.24
but they accept the sin with it.
00:39:04.27\00:39:06.27
Because like... when you're
looking at the television shows
00:39:06.31\00:39:10.05
and stuff today... like...
almost every television show
00:39:10.08\00:39:13.75
has some kind of
innuendo in there.
00:39:13.78\00:39:16.85
Mike: It's normalized.
00:39:16.89\00:39:18.35
Jason: Yes, yeah, yeah,
it's just blatantly open.
00:39:18.39\00:39:21.96
So, I think, part of what
we're really talking about...
00:39:21.99\00:39:25.46
you said, Yvonne,
00:39:25.49\00:39:26.90
God was saying,
"Let me heal you"
00:39:26.93\00:39:29.26
and instantly what
came into my mind was,
00:39:29.30\00:39:31.83
No... God was saying,
"Mike, let me love you,"
00:39:31.87\00:39:35.40
and it's interesting because
00:39:35.44\00:39:37.31
we're accused of
not being loving,
00:39:37.34\00:39:39.04
that we have a hate message
when really God is saying,
00:39:39.07\00:39:41.81
"Just let me love you
and part of loving you...
00:39:41.84\00:39:43.95
you've got to separate
yourself from the things that
00:39:43.98\00:39:46.85
keep you from my love. "
00:39:46.88\00:39:48.22
And after we started
experiencing that love,
00:39:48.25\00:39:50.79
that's the only thing that
drew me away from the things
00:39:50.82\00:39:53.92
that I desperately
was trying to hang on to.
00:39:53.96\00:39:56.12
Yvonne: So... oh, go ahead Jay.
00:39:56.16\00:39:58.19
I would like to go down
the line with each of you
00:39:58.23\00:40:03.83
and ask what
advice would you give
00:40:03.87\00:40:05.93
to people that are in
church when they encounter
00:40:05.97\00:40:09.37
someone in the gay culture
00:40:09.40\00:40:11.84
how do they go about
showing them that they love them
00:40:11.87\00:40:16.08
and that they care about
them and trying to welcome them
00:40:16.11\00:40:20.32
into the church
00:40:20.35\00:40:21.68
because it's a fine line
without condoning the behavior.
00:40:21.72\00:40:25.85
Sure, well, I think one of
the biggest things for me was
00:40:25.92\00:40:30.36
that I was expecting
people to react a certain way,
00:40:30.39\00:40:35.33
I was expecting
them to be surprised
00:40:35.36\00:40:38.07
and it was surprising to
me when they weren't surprised
00:40:38.13\00:40:41.60
and I think sometimes
we... we express a lot more
00:40:41.64\00:40:48.24
than is beneficial
and we look at a person
00:40:48.28\00:40:52.05
and we assume we know
their motives, their reasoning,
00:40:52.08\00:40:55.68
we look at a person and we think
that they are just rebellious
00:40:55.72\00:40:59.52
and obviously
they're just troublemakers
00:40:59.55\00:41:02.32
and they need to get
their lives straightened up
00:41:02.36\00:41:04.39
but a lot of the times we
are just honestly and earnestly
00:41:04.43\00:41:08.33
doing what we believe is true
00:41:08.36\00:41:10.10
with the
information that we have
00:41:10.13\00:41:11.90
and so I would encourage people
00:41:11.93\00:41:13.57
not to look at
someone and assume you know
00:41:13.60\00:41:15.57
what is going on in their life
00:41:15.60\00:41:16.94
and why they're
doing what they're doing
00:41:16.97\00:41:18.31
but to just reach out to them
00:41:18.34\00:41:22.78
like you would anyone else
and make yourself transparent
00:41:22.81\00:41:26.61
because when you
are vulnerable enough
00:41:26.65\00:41:30.75
to make yourself transparent
and open up to someone
00:41:30.79\00:41:33.46
about what
you're struggling with,
00:41:33.49\00:41:34.82
it helps them to realize that...
that you can relate to them
00:41:34.86\00:41:39.59
you can trust them...
that they're not just coming...
00:41:39.63\00:41:43.10
I'm not just coming to you
to try and expose your mess
00:41:43.13\00:41:46.57
because I'm a
mess too, you know.
00:41:46.63\00:41:49.67
Yvonne: That's true, yeah.
00:41:49.70\00:41:51.27
And when we can have that
kind of... that kind of love
00:41:51.34\00:41:56.11
that shows that we're all
in need and that the remedy is
00:41:56.14\00:42:00.98
is big enough for any
of that, for all of that,
00:42:01.02\00:42:04.82
for all of the mess
and I would also say too
00:42:04.85\00:42:08.36
a life of example
00:42:08.39\00:42:10.79
speaks much more than any
amount of words really can
00:42:10.83\00:42:14.73
so those are the
gems that I would share.
00:42:14.76\00:42:16.70
Group: Amen.
Yvonne: That's good yeah.
00:42:16.73\00:42:18.63
We are counseled that the
most powerful witness for truth
00:42:18.67\00:42:21.84
is a loving and
lovable Christian
00:42:21.87\00:42:24.04
and so, we need...
as church members...
00:42:24.07\00:42:27.61
we need to befriend
whoever comes to our church.
00:42:27.64\00:42:31.95
In my church, we have
a fellow that has come in
00:42:31.98\00:42:35.32
that is a... he's a
level 4 sex offender,
00:42:35.35\00:42:40.32
and he's registered
and he has been put out
00:42:40.36\00:42:45.23
of all the different
churches in the community,
00:42:45.26\00:42:47.10
but he is coming to our church
00:42:47.13\00:42:49.33
and he is finding that he
is loved and he's cared for,
00:42:49.36\00:42:53.47
he's befriended...
00:42:53.50\00:42:54.87
there is a struggle
with some of the members
00:42:54.90\00:42:57.31
in that area... but we're
trying to educate the members
00:42:57.34\00:43:00.31
to be friendly and
not hold this over him,
00:43:00.34\00:43:05.05
he is coming to
church for a reason,
00:43:05.08\00:43:07.15
he wants help... and when
we read the words of Jesus,
00:43:07.18\00:43:11.02
"Seek ye first the kingdom
of God and His righteousness"
00:43:11.05\00:43:14.82
we have to
realize that the gay issue
00:43:14.86\00:43:17.73
may be symptomatic...
like you were saying
00:43:17.76\00:43:20.63
it is a symptom...
the gay behavior...
00:43:20.66\00:43:23.47
is really a symptom of
something else much deeper
00:43:23.50\00:43:26.43
and a lot of
times we need to realize
00:43:26.50\00:43:30.14
that there are so many other
areas that need to be dealt with
00:43:30.17\00:43:34.54
before the
behavior is confronted
00:43:34.58\00:43:38.68
because that can be down
the list of things that the Lord
00:43:38.71\00:43:43.08
needs to take care of
and so we need to work on
00:43:43.12\00:43:46.55
bringing them to Christ
00:43:46.59\00:43:48.72
and developing a
relationship with Christ
00:43:48.76\00:43:50.79
maybe not even
addressing the gay issue
00:43:50.83\00:43:52.86
until they bring it up
because as they behold Christ
00:43:52.89\00:43:56.40
and come closer to Him... they
will start seeing themselves
00:43:56.43\00:43:59.70
that there is something
that is holding them back
00:43:59.73\00:44:02.34
and they may
start asking questions
00:44:02.40\00:44:04.61
and we need to be instead...
in season, out of season
00:44:04.64\00:44:07.38
to answer their questions
that they bring forward.
00:44:07.41\00:44:10.11
Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:44:10.15\00:44:11.48
Don't play... Holy
Spirit Junior it's not becoming.
00:44:11.51\00:44:17.99
Yvonne: Holy Spirit
Junior? Wayne: Yeah.
00:44:18.02\00:44:19.42
You know we've done a
good job in many denominations
00:44:19.45\00:44:23.79
not just the one
that we represent
00:44:23.83\00:44:25.36
of holding out the truth
and just... making sure that
00:44:25.39\00:44:30.10
you understand truth
00:44:30.13\00:44:31.47
because if you understand truth,
00:44:31.50\00:44:32.87
you'll change, but I
share in a presentation
00:44:32.90\00:44:36.04
that I have frequently,
00:44:36.07\00:44:37.54
you can't share
what you don't have
00:44:37.57\00:44:40.14
and if you don't have...
00:44:40.18\00:44:42.11
if you personally
haven't experienced
00:44:42.14\00:44:44.65
a personal, intimate
love from Jesus Christ,
00:44:44.68\00:44:47.42
you're not going
to do a very good job
00:44:47.45\00:44:49.28
of sharing that
with someone else.
00:44:49.32\00:44:50.89
Open up your heart
and thank the person
00:44:50.92\00:44:54.66
for being willing to share
their walk, their experience,
00:44:54.69\00:44:57.66
what happened to them,
what they struggle with
00:44:57.69\00:45:02.56
and let them know
that they are loved,
00:45:02.60\00:45:04.27
that they are welcomed,
don't be afraid that...
00:45:04.33\00:45:06.94
that you're not
seeing change immediately,
00:45:06.97\00:45:09.00
the change that
you expect to see
00:45:09.07\00:45:10.77
let God do the
work, go to God in prayer,
00:45:10.81\00:45:14.48
be invitational to the person,
00:45:14.54\00:45:16.95
make sure that
they're welcome in your home
00:45:16.98\00:45:18.61
share with them the things
that God has done for you,
00:45:18.68\00:45:23.55
the things that you
thought were impossible
00:45:23.59\00:45:26.25
and think a little
bit about the fact that
00:45:26.32\00:45:28.89
that we haven't
had a real good message
00:45:28.92\00:45:31.43
in our denominations today
with regards to homosexuality
00:45:31.46\00:45:35.66
and the opposite of
homosexuality... being holiness
00:45:35.70\00:45:38.77
you know... not heterosexuality.
00:45:38.80\00:45:40.44
Think about inviting
'Coming Out' Ministries
00:45:40.50\00:45:43.61
to come to your church and
to share from a personal...
00:45:43.64\00:45:47.01
a very personal perspective
00:45:47.04\00:45:48.68
and a Biblical
perspective at the same time,
00:45:48.74\00:45:51.18
you'll be surprised
because what you might expect
00:45:51.21\00:45:54.25
from us might
not be what you see,
00:45:54.28\00:45:55.95
what you may see is
that you'll see the testimony
00:45:55.98\00:45:58.99
of what Jesus
has been able to do
00:45:59.02\00:46:00.86
and some guidelines
that God has given us
00:46:00.89\00:46:03.36
in the process that
maybe we've overlooked
00:46:03.39\00:46:05.49
for a very long time.
00:46:05.53\00:46:06.86
That's great, how
can people get in touch
00:46:06.90\00:46:09.13
with 'Coming Out' Ministries?
00:46:09.16\00:46:10.50
comingoutministries.
org is our website
00:46:10.53\00:46:13.94
and you can click on: Contact
00:46:13.97\00:46:15.57
and we'll be happy to
get you on the schedule.
00:46:15.60\00:46:18.04
That's incredible... thank you.
00:46:18.07\00:46:20.08
Jason: What about you Mike,
what advice would you have?
00:46:20.11\00:46:22.71
I was thinking about all the
answers that I wanted to give,
00:46:22.74\00:46:25.31
they've said but I think that
00:46:25.35\00:46:27.78
one of the things that
we can definitely do is...
00:46:27.82\00:46:29.85
each one of
us... is sitting here
00:46:29.88\00:46:31.59
because of intercessory prayer
00:46:31.62\00:46:33.19
and the damage of
a message of saying,
00:46:33.22\00:46:35.62
"You're okay in
your gay identity"
00:46:35.66\00:46:37.99
is the fact that... that
means you'll stop praying for me
00:46:38.03\00:46:40.66
and it was only because
Danielle's mother said to God,
00:46:40.70\00:46:43.47
"Interrupt her plans...
00:46:43.50\00:46:44.83
don't give her what she seeks,
show her she needs you," right?
00:46:44.87\00:46:47.64
Ron's parents
were dropping of books,
00:46:47.67\00:46:49.67
under his pillow, on a cabinet,
00:46:49.70\00:46:51.81
behind the toilet,
00:46:51.84\00:46:53.17
they were dropping off these
books and praying for their son,
00:46:53.21\00:46:55.94
Wayne's mother and
father... for 40 years...
00:46:55.98\00:46:59.15
asked an Elder to pray,
after 40 years... and they said,
00:46:59.18\00:47:01.95
"Is it possible for my son
to change to come back to you?"
00:47:01.98\00:47:04.89
and this Elder didn't want
to dash their hopes and he said,
00:47:04.92\00:47:07.56
"Well, let's pray" but he
didn't think it was possible.
00:47:07.59\00:47:10.19
Knelt down and prayed
this faithless prayer,
00:47:10.23\00:47:12.36
they got up, his
parents were crying
00:47:12.39\00:47:14.06
they'd been praying for
their son for over 40 years
00:47:14.10\00:47:16.26
and then, that Wednesday,
00:47:16.30\00:47:18.27
was when Wayne called
his parents and he said,
00:47:18.30\00:47:20.07
"I'm getting
baptized this weekend"
00:47:20.10\00:47:22.17
forty years... and so,
one of the things is...
00:47:22.20\00:47:24.77
we like to encourage
people, "Don't stop praying"
00:47:24.81\00:47:27.34
God may not be able to use you
but He could use something else
00:47:27.38\00:47:31.01
and so, if you think
that this is acceptable,
00:47:31.05\00:47:33.42
then you won't pray
and have the opportunity
00:47:33.45\00:47:36.05
to send angels to
minister to someone's help
00:47:36.08\00:47:38.65
and then, don't drop the ball
00:47:38.69\00:47:40.39
when they start
coming into church
00:47:40.46\00:47:42.62
and you're like...
you don't know what to do
00:47:42.66\00:47:44.23
and what I love is...
00:47:44.26\00:47:45.59
is... God makes
the gospel so simple,
00:47:45.63\00:47:48.10
there's not a
criteria for the homosexual
00:47:48.13\00:47:50.87
and a criteria
for the drug addict
00:47:50.90\00:47:53.00
and a protocol
for somebody else...
00:47:53.03\00:47:55.10
it's all the same,
00:47:55.14\00:47:56.47
God says, "If I be lifted up...
I will draw all men unto me"
00:47:56.50\00:48:00.01
and what ministered to my soul
was not attacking my lifestyle
00:48:00.04\00:48:03.61
or my culture or
even in my history,
00:48:03.65\00:48:05.45
just start showing me the love
of Jesus... in how you live,
00:48:05.48\00:48:08.68
in how you represent the
Word and then that draws them
00:48:08.72\00:48:11.85
and then let the Holy Spirit
00:48:11.89\00:48:13.25
worry about the
converting of that person
00:48:13.29\00:48:15.22
and it may take a
while. Yvonne: Right, right.
00:48:15.29\00:48:17.89
You know about being a
praying mom, don't you?
00:48:17.93\00:48:20.50
Yes, I do... yes I do,
00:48:20.53\00:48:23.70
I was praying and
continue to pray actually,
00:48:23.73\00:48:26.47
I've seen God do
such amazing things,
00:48:26.50\00:48:29.70
He brought Jason back
and I have an older son
00:48:29.74\00:48:33.71
and I'm still praying for him
00:48:33.74\00:48:35.24
and I know God is
going to do that for him
00:48:35.28\00:48:38.28
and so, I'm just so
grateful and all of you
00:48:38.31\00:48:41.22
are sitting here again...
because of intercessory prayer.
00:48:41.25\00:48:44.29
It works... prayer
works... don't give up,
00:48:44.35\00:48:46.86
don't give up praying for
that friend, that family member,
00:48:46.92\00:48:50.86
that person that you
know... that friend of a friend,
00:48:50.89\00:48:54.56
that friend on
Facebook, don't give up
00:48:54.60\00:48:57.33
because God's got a
plan... God's got a plan
00:48:57.37\00:49:01.40
He wants to give
people the abundant life
00:49:01.47\00:49:04.77
and we have a part
in that by praying.
00:49:04.81\00:49:08.08
What would you say has been
one of the greatest challenges
00:49:08.11\00:49:12.88
for your ministry both within
and outside of the church?
00:49:12.91\00:49:17.65
I think false accusation...
00:49:17.69\00:49:21.12
there are people
that make assumptions
00:49:21.16\00:49:24.39
without listening to us
00:49:24.46\00:49:25.79
and so, there has been a
history of "change ministries"
00:49:25.83\00:49:28.53
meaning that... a ministry
is going to take someone
00:49:28.56\00:49:31.50
that is homosexual
and make them heterosexual
00:49:31.53\00:49:33.67
and that's how you gain glory
in God's presence by doing...
00:49:33.74\00:49:38.27
by changing your sex habits and
there are therapies out there
00:49:38.31\00:49:42.84
like "reparative
therapy" "conversion therapy"
00:49:42.88\00:49:45.05
we've got to get
someone involved in that
00:49:45.08\00:49:46.68
so their life can be changed and
a lot of damage has been done
00:49:46.72\00:49:50.05
maybe some good
has been done by that
00:49:50.09\00:49:51.82
but a lot of damage has
been done by these therapies.
00:49:51.85\00:49:54.29
This isn't "conversion therapy"
00:49:54.32\00:49:55.69
this isn't "reparative therapy?"
00:49:55.72\00:49:57.06
Mike: This is "heart therapy. "
00:49:57.09\00:49:58.76
Okay, okay, unpack
it for us, unpack it...
00:49:58.79\00:50:00.56
Well, Yvonne, we really
are a full spectrum ministry
00:50:00.60\00:50:04.63
and we've accused
of trying to change
00:50:04.67\00:50:07.74
homosexuals to heterosexuals
00:50:07.77\00:50:09.30
but each one of us
is still on a journey
00:50:09.34\00:50:12.07
of that healing,
fortunately for Ron,
00:50:12.11\00:50:14.78
within a year he was
married, he has children
00:50:14.81\00:50:17.21
and they're grown and
00:50:17.25\00:50:18.68
Danielle faces challenges
of being a young woman
00:50:18.71\00:50:22.25
who has committed
herself to ministry,
00:50:22.28\00:50:24.52
I didn't even think it was
possible but several years ago,
00:50:24.55\00:50:27.96
I actually started to experience
attractions to the opposite sex
00:50:27.99\00:50:32.09
and so, now it's like
going through puberty twice
00:50:32.13\00:50:34.93
but... and then Wayne is
in his own experience also...
00:50:34.96\00:50:39.10
of waiting for that one woman
00:50:39.13\00:50:41.34
that God might
put in front of him
00:50:41.37\00:50:42.80
so, if you took five
minutes to listen to us,
00:50:42.84\00:50:46.98
you would realize that we are
not promoting heterosexuality
00:50:47.01\00:50:50.45
we're promoting
holiness in Jesus Christ
00:50:50.51\00:50:53.01
and as that is our
focus what's amazing is
00:50:53.05\00:50:55.52
certain things start to fall off
00:50:55.55\00:50:57.19
and other things
start to come in.
00:50:57.22\00:50:58.75
I think there is a
real misunderstanding
00:50:58.79\00:51:01.39
with a lot of Christians about
the plan of salvation period.
00:51:01.42\00:51:04.49
Because one thing that we
keep getting confronted with was
00:51:04.53\00:51:08.03
is this issue of temptation...
have you ever been tempted
00:51:08.06\00:51:11.50
or are you
tempted and the question
00:51:11.53\00:51:15.17
gives an impression
that if we're tempted,
00:51:15.20\00:51:18.37
we're not changed
into the image of Christ
00:51:18.41\00:51:21.34
or being changed
into the image of Christ,
00:51:21.41\00:51:24.28
but Jesus was tempted in
all points like as we are
00:51:24.31\00:51:27.75
yet without sin, He
suffered being tempted,
00:51:27.78\00:51:30.42
He resisted unto blood
striving against temptation
00:51:30.45\00:51:34.09
so, many Christians
just don't seem to understand
00:51:34.12\00:51:38.36
the difference
between temptation
00:51:38.39\00:51:40.80
and orientation for one thing,
00:51:40.83\00:51:43.13
and our
orientation is the direction
00:51:43.16\00:51:46.23
we're choosing to
go by God's grace,
00:51:46.27\00:51:49.20
it's not the
direction Satan wants us to go
00:51:49.24\00:51:52.14
and so, we really are
trying to educate Christians
00:51:52.17\00:51:56.88
to understand that this
whole concept of temptation
00:51:56.91\00:52:02.18
and sin... that we're
not... sin is not temptation...
00:52:02.22\00:52:07.46
or temptation is not sin,
00:52:07.49\00:52:09.39
temptation reveals
Satan's plan for your life
00:52:09.42\00:52:13.63
but God has a
plan for our lives too
00:52:13.66\00:52:16.30
and we're choosing
to follow God's plan
00:52:16.36\00:52:18.97
regardless of Satan's efforts.
00:52:19.00\00:52:21.54
Sin... when you
yield to that temptation...
00:52:21.57\00:52:24.77
when you give in to the
temptation, that's one of them.
00:52:24.81\00:52:27.11
And claim the gift
that God is offering you
00:52:27.14\00:52:30.75
of a new
identity in Jesus Christ.
00:52:30.78\00:52:33.28
A new creature is what He
promises in 2nd Corinthians 5:17
00:52:33.31\00:52:38.22
you don't have to
linger in the past
00:52:38.25\00:52:40.86
and cling to that gay identity
00:52:40.89\00:52:43.06
or be a
non-practicing homosexual
00:52:43.09\00:52:45.23
that's just things that
00:52:45.26\00:52:46.59
even the church is
offering today... a new identity
00:52:46.63\00:52:49.60
but it's not the identity
that Jesus has promised us...
00:52:49.63\00:52:52.60
let's make sure
that we go to the Word
00:52:52.63\00:52:54.74
where God says,
"Such were some of you
00:52:54.77\00:52:56.91
claim the identity
that He's offering you today
00:52:56.94\00:52:59.84
no matter what you've
suffered from... in your past. "
00:52:59.87\00:53:02.84
Yes, that's great, before we end
00:53:02.88\00:53:06.11
the time has flown by,
this has just been so wonderful
00:53:06.15\00:53:09.88
you have done a
series for Pure Choices
00:53:09.92\00:53:14.19
on Dare to Dream, in
fact this is the second time
00:53:14.22\00:53:17.86
that 'Coming Out'
Ministries has been here,
00:53:17.89\00:53:20.10
this is your first time Danielle
00:53:20.13\00:53:21.46
and we're so happy
that you're part of it,
00:53:21.50\00:53:23.06
what do we have
to look forward to...
00:53:23.10\00:53:27.00
what does the Viewer...
00:53:27.04\00:53:28.37
what kinds of topics did
you cover on Pure Choices
00:53:28.40\00:53:31.41
because we gave...
00:53:31.44\00:53:32.77
you guys got
this whole series here
00:53:32.81\00:53:36.54
so what would you say
you cover during this series?
00:53:36.58\00:53:40.65
You know, our first series
was called: The Gay Puzzle
00:53:40.68\00:53:44.29
and what we did is we
basically gave our testimonies
00:53:44.32\00:53:47.29
and then... some of the topics
00:53:47.36\00:53:49.52
I think that were really
depending on us personally,
00:53:49.56\00:53:51.96
now after we've been in ministry
for four years, I think,
00:53:51.99\00:53:55.06
Wayne: Five...
00:53:55.10\00:53:56.73
Five, thank you,
now what we've done is
00:53:56.77\00:53:58.43
we've gone much deeper
and realize that there are
00:53:58.47\00:54:00.94
issues of transgenderism,
00:54:00.97\00:54:02.40
issues of
prefixes before our titles
00:54:02.44\00:54:07.34
and we want to address...
00:54:07.38\00:54:08.71
Wayne: Parents...
Mike: Yeah, parents...
00:54:08.74\00:54:10.08
we've interviewed parents and...
00:54:10.11\00:54:11.48
and talked about the deep
emotional pain that they have
00:54:11.51\00:54:14.05
when we go to different venues,
00:54:14.12\00:54:16.08
we find that
parents have a deeper shame
00:54:16.12\00:54:18.79
and guilt about what
their children are going through
00:54:18.82\00:54:22.59
and so, we really
started to reach out and realize
00:54:22.62\00:54:25.43
that there's a ministry
involved in that as well.
00:54:25.46\00:54:28.56
So, I think we have a
fuller picture of what we began
00:54:28.60\00:54:31.67
in our first series
with you three years ago.
00:54:31.73\00:54:34.70
You know, our
testimonies are given to inspire
00:54:34.74\00:54:38.07
and then... but we
go beyond inspiring...
00:54:38.11\00:54:41.38
we want to enlighten and
we want to equip the church
00:54:41.41\00:54:44.61
to deal with this issue
in a very redemptive way
00:54:44.65\00:54:47.82
and we thank you for
offering us the privilege
00:54:47.85\00:54:50.89
and the opportunity to
do this on Pure Choices.
00:54:50.92\00:54:53.92
Well, we thank
you, because this series
00:54:53.96\00:54:57.76
is just going to be so powerful.
00:54:57.79\00:55:00.53
Do you have
anything Jay before we close?
00:55:00.56\00:55:03.90
Not only powerful
but really educational
00:55:03.93\00:55:07.17
so a lot of
people get an inside look
00:55:07.20\00:55:10.37
and I'm glad that you guys
are address the question of
00:55:10.41\00:55:13.61
how should Christians go about
welcoming people to their church
00:55:13.64\00:55:19.05
we need to constantly
be building the church
00:55:19.08\00:55:21.55
and we want to see
everyone in heaven,
00:55:21.58\00:55:24.92
Ron: Not willing
that any should perish.
00:55:24.95\00:55:29.59
Amen, you guys are
on the frontlines and so
00:55:29.62\00:55:32.33
I ask you Viewers to pray
for 'Coming Out' Ministries
00:55:32.36\00:55:35.93
because they are truly
on the frontlines here...
00:55:35.96\00:55:39.03
really going up against
the Kingdom of darkness...
00:55:39.07\00:55:42.07
there's so much...
00:55:42.10\00:55:43.47
they are swimming
against the tide...
00:55:43.51\00:55:46.27
so I thank you Mike and
Wayne and Ron and Danielle
00:55:46.31\00:55:50.75
for all that you do
for the cause of Christ.
00:55:50.81\00:55:53.98
Know that we love you,
know that we are behind you
00:55:54.02\00:55:57.62
and I hope that our
Viewers will be praying...
00:55:57.65\00:56:01.09
that you'll be praying
for this wonderful ministry
00:56:01.12\00:56:04.36
because it's really
difficult out there.
00:56:04.39\00:56:07.53
Thank you so much for
everything and thank you Jay,
00:56:07.56\00:56:11.27
you did a great
job, it's really good.
00:56:11.30\00:56:16.10
Make sure to check out
this season of Pure Choices.
00:56:16.14\00:56:23.75
That was so powerful you know,
00:56:23.78\00:56:27.65
we are new creatures in Christ.
00:56:27.68\00:56:31.49
The Bible says in
2nd Corinthians 5:17,
00:56:31.52\00:56:34.76
"Therefore if
any man be in Christ,
00:56:34.79\00:56:37.96
he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
00:56:37.99\00:56:41.96
behold, all
things are become new. "
00:56:42.00\00:56:44.97
We praise God for the abundant
life that He provides for us
00:56:45.00\00:56:49.04
if we'll follow him.
00:56:49.07\00:56:50.47
Thank you so much for supporting
us here at Dare to Dream,
00:56:50.51\00:56:54.81
thank you for
watching these programs
00:56:54.84\00:56:56.85
and we pray that
you'll be able to apply these
00:56:56.88\00:56:59.85
spiritual
principles to your life.
00:56:59.88\00:57:01.62
Please support us with your
prayers and your financial gifts
00:57:01.65\00:57:06.02
and if the Holy
Spirit impresses you,
00:57:06.05\00:57:08.29
please send your
tax-deductible love gift to:
00:57:08.32\00:57:12.16
Also, you can
like us on Facebook.
00:57:36.42\00:57:39.05
We welcome your
suggestions, if you have topics
00:57:39.09\00:57:42.59
that you want us to
cover in programming,
00:57:42.62\00:57:44.69
please let us know
00:57:44.76\00:57:46.16
and if our programs are
being a blessing to you,
00:57:46.19\00:57:49.40
also, let us know that
00:57:49.43\00:57:50.93
because we want to
know who is being reached
00:57:50.97\00:57:53.50
by these programs.
00:57:53.54\00:57:54.87
Our goal is to help
people to find Jesus
00:57:54.90\00:57:58.21
through these programs.
00:57:58.24\00:57:59.57
Thank you so
much for joining us,
00:57:59.61\00:58:01.31
join us next time
00:58:01.34\00:58:02.68
because it just wouldn't
be the same... without you.
00:58:02.71\00:58:05.41