Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Subodh Pandit
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000161A
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00:01 What do you say to a person
00:02 that just doesn't believe in God? 00:04 Stay tuned to find out. 00:05 My name is Yvonne Lewis 00:06 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:32 Hello and welcome to Urban Report. 00:35 My guest today is Dr. Subodh Pandit, 00:37 Physician and Lecturer. 00:39 I met Dr. Pandit at ASI and he was fascinating, 00:43 let's take a look. 00:44 You know, one of my absolute favorite things 00:48 about ASI is that I get to meet people 00:51 who are doing amazing things for God 00:54 that have tremendous ministries, 00:56 ministries that are so different and unique, 00:58 and my guest today is Dr. Subodh Pandit 01:04 he is the President of Search Seminars International 01:09 and he has an amazing ministry 01:12 and you know how you love to hear about these stories, 01:16 I love to share with our Viewers 01:19 amazing testimonies and resources 01:23 and so Dr. Pandit, thank you so much. 01:25 It's nice to be here. 01:26 So, Search Seminars... I first heard about it 01:31 through Pastor John Lomacang who told me 01:34 that you have to meet this man, he's got a tremendous ministry 01:39 and he and his wife Angie were telling me 01:42 about Search Seminars and about what you're doing 01:45 and the fact that nobody else is really doing it... 01:49 that we know of 01:50 it's an amazing ministry, tell us a bit about Search. 01:53 First of all, it is the word itself, 01:56 "Search" so it is not a lecture 01:59 it's not something that was built up by itself 02:03 it was a real life search for me. 02:05 I grew up in India. 02:07 India has the largest Hindu population in the world, 02:10 the second largest... 02:12 probably... Muslim population in the world. 02:15 We have more Muslims in India 02:17 than the whole Arabian Peninsula put together, 02:19 Buddhism was born in India, 02:22 tradition has it that 02:24 Christianity came to India in the very first generation 02:27 Saint Thomas, one of the disciples of Jesus came there, 02:31 Zoroastrians live in India, 02:34 Sikhs, 02:36 Jains, 02:37 so in this crucible, when I was growing up 02:40 questions came to me quite strongly 02:44 and I was... at times troubled by them. 02:47 So I went on a journey of inquiry 02:50 and which I called a "search" and's why... 02:53 the title of... whenever I present it, 02:55 is entitled, "Come Search with Me. " 02:57 It is a real search of my own 03:00 which I now share with those who want to listen. 03:02 That's amazing, so the Search Seminars 03:07 were actually borne out of your own search... 03:10 your own desire to find answers 03:13 to certain questions that you had. 03:15 That's right. 03:16 And so you share that journey and that process with others. 03:21 That's right. 03:23 Okay, so, with the search, the whole process, 03:29 explain who you're trying to reach with Search Seminars. 03:33 Basically, the search was for myself, 03:36 and I divided it into two portions, 03:39 the first one was, how would a rational, scientific 03:45 inquiring mind actually accept the concept of God 03:51 who we cannot even see or hear? 03:53 So I had to answer that question first. 03:57 Then, once you settle on that, the question then comes 04:02 as to, "Do we have any idea of the identity of this God?" 04:07 Hmmm... 04:08 There are claims out there, so, can we identify Him as the 04:12 Christian God, as the Muslim God, 04:14 or as the Hindu God, which one? 04:17 So, we went through two phases really... 04:19 the first one was, is there a God? 04:23 It has to be based on reason and logic 04:26 because at that point you cannot bring in religion, 04:29 religions already believe in God, 04:31 it would be circular reasoning 04:33 at that point. Right... 04:34 So, that's what I did in my search 04:37 it took me a few decades to do that 04:39 and so when I now present this, 04:42 or share it, 04:44 the first audience that I usually speak to 04:47 are those who just don't believe at all in God, 04:49 we could call them Atheists, Humanists, 04:53 and when we speak to them, we have to use their language. 04:57 You know, one of the things that is amazing to me 05:02 in these current times is that there is such a proliferation 05:06 of Atheism in our Society, 05:09 there are so many people who are living without God 05:13 in their lives, the Humanists, 05:15 the New Age Movement with Humanism 05:18 and the whole idea that man is god, 05:22 you are your own god, every path leads to god, 05:25 I mean, there are so many little things there, 05:29 so many directions there that you could go 05:32 and yet there are so many people, 05:34 who feel like there is no God. 05:36 It behooves us as Christians to know 05:43 how to relate to these people and we can't use Scripture 05:47 to lead them to God, so to speak, 05:51 I mean, you can't say there is a God because 05:55 in Genesis 1:1 it says, 05:57 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" 05:59 people who don't believe in that are like, "So what?" 06:02 Exactly... so what? I don't believe in that 06:05 so why are you quoting that? Yvonne: Right. 06:07 So, it becomes, like I said, "circular reasoning" 06:10 it's like saying, "I'm telling you the truth," 06:13 and you ask, "why?" 06:14 "Well, because I'm telling 06:15 you the truth" Yvonne: Right, right. 06:17 That doesn't sound reasonable or really convincing 06:19 to a person who really wants to know, "Why?" 06:21 Yeah. 06:23 So we must change the way we talk 06:26 so that we ourselves are satisfied with what we're saying 06:30 and that would require that we speak their language 06:34 and their language basically would be Science, 06:37 reason, common sense, and that is what I aim to show 06:43 and the reason I'm convinced about this, 06:48 is because of the way it satisfied my own heart 06:51 when I asked these questions. 06:53 Yeah, so, because you were coming from that place of logic 06:59 as a Scientist, as a Physician, 07:00 you were coming from that place of logic and reason 07:04 and imperatism and just... you know... 07:08 the scientific method, so all of these things 07:11 were in play for you and then you also... being from India 07:16 where Hinduism has thousands of gods, 07:19 right, and then you've got the Muslim religion... 07:23 all these different religions, so you began to question 07:27 who is God, is there a God? 07:32 So what was the first... the first step that you took 07:37 as you began your search? 07:39 The first step was actually laying a foundation 07:42 whenever there's a large question, 07:45 especially in which there are controversies, 07:48 then if you want to have a real good conversation 07:52 that's reasonable, two-way conversation, 07:54 you must lay a premise, 07:56 and the basic premise that I had to lay was 07:59 I would now become an inquirer, not a believer, not a skeptic, 08:06 because a believer will swallow, 08:08 a skeptic will keep on questioning everything, 08:11 but really if you draw it to its logical conclusion, 08:16 if you say, "I'm going to question everything" 08:18 you would have to question your question itself, 08:21 so that destroys the whole processes, 08:25 so, not a skeptic, not a believer, 08:30 an inquirer... 08:31 and an inquirer is not worried about the end result, 08:35 his focus is, "Am I making a credible inquiry?" 08:41 "Is my process really reasonable 08:44 and is it based on anybody looking on... 08:48 seeing it to be credible, seeing it to be reasonable, 08:51 seeing it to be satisfying?" 08:54 So that basis was my first step 08:56 and then I went on to ask the question 08:59 that are not really related directly to the tenets of belief 09:03 but to the basis on which the tenets of belief are built 09:07 and that is the story in which it came 09:10 every message from the other world 09:13 came to us in the form of a story. 09:15 Hmmm... 09:17 So when you look at the story rather than the doctrine, 09:19 you can ask questions that 09:21 anyone can ask... Yvonne: Yes. 09:23 And then when you ask those questions, 09:25 you get it from their own writings... the answers, 09:29 and don't controvert because you're not in a position 09:33 to say "right" or "wrong," just place it on the table 09:36 and see what happens, see where the chips fall, 09:39 it's amazing how the weight of evidence becomes compelling. 09:45 Yes, yes, see that makes so much sense 09:47 and I think, to the enquiring mind, 09:50 to the logical mind that's not... 09:53 that's not invested either way, 09:57 but that really just kind of wants to know 09:59 if you're really seeking to know... something... 10:03 then you have to balance it, 10:05 you have to look at the pluses and the minuses 10:08 and then use the intelligence that you have, 10:11 that we know that God has given you, 10:13 to deduce the truth. 10:16 Exactly, for example, the first question, 10:19 "Is there a God?" Usually we go to one side 10:22 and argue the pros and cons, 10:23 I said, "No, there are two options, 10:26 there is a God, there is no God," 10:28 so there are two options and if you are an inquirer, 10:32 then you will look at both 10:33 and you'll look for evidences for both, 10:37 that are in favor of both, and then you'll turn around 10:41 and look for evidences that are against both, 10:44 so you will have four columns of arguments. 10:47 When you do that, you have established 10:49 that you're trying to be as fair and balanced as possible 10:53 and then when you really 10:55 get to the place where you make the enquiry 10:58 I think there are four things that really 11:01 should form the atmosphere, the first is humility, 11:05 the second is honesty, the third is calmness, 11:10 and the fourth is respect. 11:11 If you use these four on any controversial topic, 11:16 I think we can come out as friends 11:18 even if we disagree completely. 11:20 Yes, yes, so it's honesty, 11:23 humility, calmness 11:27 and respect. 11:29 That is so true because when you're talking to someone, 11:32 who either... 11:33 who doesn't believe at all or doesn't... 11:36 even when you're talking to someone that comes to your home, 11:38 like these missionaries, so to speak, 11:42 they come to your home and they knock on the door 11:43 and they say, "Could we talk to you about 11:45 Scripture or whatever?" 11:46 There should always be respect, 11:50 there should always be a situation where you're listening 11:54 to what they have to say 11:56 and not just ready to pound them. 11:58 You should keep their dignity. Yvonne: Yes. 12:02 If you do not keep their dignity, 12:05 they can recognize it right away. 12:07 Yes, yes. 12:08 So this is one thing that I really learned 12:10 hold their dignity up, and if you use these four, 12:14 you will do that. 12:16 So, let's say, I am an Atheist, and you and I are on a plane 12:22 and we start to talk and I find out that 12:24 you're kind of an apologist, you're an apologist for God, 12:29 so, I'm listening to you and I find out that 12:33 you are a believer in God and I'm not, 12:37 what would you say to me, I'm going to pretend, 12:42 we're going to role-play now and I'm going to pretend 12:44 that I am an Atheist, even though I hate... 12:48 I hate even denouncing God on any level but 12:51 just for the sake of role playing. 12:54 Subodh: People do that. Yvonne: Yes, people do that, 12:56 so, now I'm the person on the plane with you. 13:01 So, you believe in this God that you talk about 13:06 that is a Creator, 13:09 why should I believe in God, why? 13:13 So you are asking for some kind of a basis 13:20 if you are doing that, let's settle on one thing 13:23 that we will both be inquirers, 13:26 in other words, come and sit on my side with me, 13:28 beside me, it's not me telling you, 13:31 let's both search for the truth of the matter... 13:34 Yvonne: Okay. 13:36 And if we are going to do that together, 13:37 we should be agreed that 13:39 certain parameters will govern us 13:43 for example, 13:44 let's talk only on Science, 13:49 Reason and Logic. 13:51 Okay, because I don't see how you can say that 13:55 and say you believe in God with Science and Reason, but okay... 13:59 That's right, so we start by laying the foundation, 14:03 we're going to use only these three, 14:05 so let me ask you whether there can be good evidence 14:10 for anything that was never in existence, 14:13 and you will find that there cannot be... 14:16 so when you ask me for an evidence, 14:20 you haven't really thought it through 14:23 but there cannot be evidence 14:25 for that which was never in existence. 14:28 Yvonne: That's true. 14:32 So you're asking me for something 14:34 that you have already made up your mind, 14:36 that is why you to come beside me 14:38 and let's look at it together 14:41 so what kind of evidence can there be? 14:44 One of the things is, 14:46 I'll place before you... is simple logic, 14:49 now, logic requires two things, 14:52 one a base statement that you and I will both agree on, 14:57 and once we have agreed on the base statement, 15:00 then we'll use steps of reasoning 15:02 to come to some kind of a conclusion. 15:04 So, here's what I would make as one example 15:08 by which I can appeal to you... Logic, 15:12 let's start with the base statement on one topic, 15:15 the "order principle" of Science, states 15:20 that when there is a cause and an effect, 15:24 then the cause cannot be less than the effect, 15:29 the cause will most likely be greater than the effect, 15:34 so now, we don't have to do much of an experiment, 15:39 we'll just look... 15:41 and look for observational information. 15:43 On earth, we have life, 15:46 so I have life, you also have life, 15:51 then the source... the cause... 15:54 should have life that is more than yours 15:57 and more than mine because He gave it to everyone. 16:00 So we can deduce logically at that point 16:04 that the cause of all life 16:07 has a reservoir of life to impart it to us, 16:11 so can we call that "plenty of life?" 16:16 How about intellect? The same argument, 16:20 if He gave your intellect as well as mine, 16:23 then He must be having a huge bank account of an intellect 16:28 to impart it... to all of us, 16:30 when you look at it this way, 16:32 by the "order principle" of Science, 16:35 then you can make a very good reasonable deduction 16:40 which is the basis of all Science, 16:42 that the cause, the source, 16:45 alive, plenty of life, 16:49 we could even say, "eternal life," 16:52 plenty of power, 16:55 we could use the word "All Powerful," 16:58 so once you do this exercise, 17:01 in a reasonable, honest, open way, 17:04 then logic will lead you to the conclusion 17:08 that beyond us, there is a Being 17:11 that has all these tremendous qualities, 17:14 and so it is reasonable to say, 17:16 that this being could be called "God" 17:18 because He's omniscient, 17:20 He has plenty of life, eternal life... 17:24 and He is all powerful. 17:26 We have described the attributes of God 17:30 without one word from any religious book at all. 17:34 That's true, that's true, but then following that logic, 17:39 the logic of "cause and effect," what was the cause or the... 17:45 where did God come from then, who created God? 17:49 That is a very reasonable question. 17:54 In fact, it's very common 17:56 because we are following a logic. 17:59 Yvonne: Right. 18:00 And if this made this and this made that, 18:02 then who made God? Yvonne: Right. 18:04 Well, we can't answer the completely 18:06 but here's how I will respond to you if you ask me that. 18:09 I don't know. 18:11 And see, that's one of the four things that you said 18:17 honesty, calmness, what was the fourth one? 18:21 Humility and respect. 18:24 I don't know, nor do you, as an Atheist, 18:30 so as an Atheist you don't know and as a believer, I don't know, 18:34 so the "I don't know" 18:36 cannot be the deciding factor then, 18:39 so it might be something else. 18:41 Okay, explain why "I don't know" is not acceptable. 18:43 Because you really don't know who made God 18:46 and I also don't know 18:48 so both of us don't know who made God, 18:51 that's why you asked me, 18:52 if you did know, you wouldn't have asked. 18:54 Yvonne: Right. 18:55 Okay, so we don't know, 18:58 just because we don't know, doesn't mean it is non-existent, 19:02 just because I don't know, for example, 19:06 who made your car, is the car non-existent? 19:10 No, so just because you don't know 19:13 it is not non-existent. 19:15 Secondly, if you say, "Who made God?" 19:18 and I say, "Well, it could be His father" 19:21 then you'll say, "Who made the father?" 19:24 In other words, you can go on and on 19:27 and it actually comes to a... 19:29 you'll have to describe it as 19:30 infinitely going on... the question... 19:34 an infinite group of ideas 19:37 in a series, 19:39 cannot be the originator 19:41 of the series. 19:43 In other words, something inside there 19:45 which you are saying is the cause 19:47 and is caused by something else, cannot be the original cause. 19:52 The original cause has to have features 19:56 that are different from inside the series, 19:59 so if one of the features of the parts inside the series is 20:04 that it is caused, then the ultimate one 20:08 you have to describe it as "uncaused," 20:12 otherwise we cannot bring the series to a point 20:15 and only that can be the originator, 20:19 here we are in the universe, there had to be a point, 20:22 and you cannot have an infinite series... 20:25 which is going on and on... with no point. 20:27 Right, right, well that makes sense, 20:29 that makes sense. 20:30 So logically then, you and I are in the same boat. 20:34 Okay, okay, I think you're boxing me in now, Doc, 20:38 I think you're boxing me in, so, how many... 20:42 tell us about some of the... we're done with the role play 20:46 I see how you kind of go from Point A to Point B 20:52 and you teach this do you not? 20:55 Because people would want to know... if their neighbor, 21:00 if their co-worker, 21:01 if the person that they meet in the grocery store is an Atheist, 21:06 how do I approach that, 21:08 how can I give them something to think about? 21:13 And that's what you do in your Seminars. 21:16 That's right, so, the opening dialogue 21:20 is actually of friendship 21:22 in which you gain their confidence as a friend, 21:26 and then you ask whether they would like to be an inquirer 21:30 so actually my first question to you 21:33 when you were sitting beside me in the plane 21:35 would have been, "Do you really want to know?" 21:38 In other words, we are bringing them to a point 21:40 where we are going to actually search 21:43 to really look for the truth of the matter 21:46 not defend one side or the other, 21:49 just look for the truth of the matter, 21:52 so when you open that dialogue, we are in a position 21:56 to lay the next foundation which we said, as an inquirer, 22:00 we will use only certain parameters, 22:03 and then use those parameters just the way 22:06 I have just described it 22:07 it's actually very simple and there are many things 22:11 that God has placed there that we can use one after another 22:15 so that we can... intellectually make a reasonable, 22:20 compelling case, for the existence of God. 22:23 Yes, that's excellent, 22:25 when did you know that this is what you wanted to do, 22:28 because you were a physician, 22:30 when did you know that you wanted to have this ministry? 22:35 It came gradually, 22:37 earlier in my life there were questions, 22:41 and it only came after I finished my medical studies 22:45 that I decided to ask those questions 22:48 and not leave them as questions 22:50 but delve into them and see what would happen, 22:54 so it gradually came on as quite a compelling push 22:58 would you like to know? 23:01 And I really wanted to know, in fact, I badly wanted to know 23:04 and so it went on... it was not a point in time, 23:07 it gradually grew on to me 23:09 and the search actually took me decades 23:12 because I had to ask 23:15 and many times you don't have an answer 23:17 and even more importantly, many times you recognize 23:23 that your question was not the right question, 23:27 so you've got to look for the right question now 23:30 because if you ask the wrong question, 23:32 you hit against the wall, 23:34 it's not going to lead you anywhere. 23:35 so just being inquisitive was not my goal, 23:39 it was to ask a question, to go beyond the hurdle 23:42 so I had to look for the right questions first 23:45 and then look for the right answer. 23:48 It was a tremendous, 23:49 very captivating process that I went through. 23:53 Yes, yes, tell us about 23:55 some of the people that you've worked with 23:57 with this method 23:59 that came to you... with hearts of Atheists 24:02 and the Lord worked on them. 24:04 Let me give you an example of... it was real life... 24:07 when I was in Australia, 24:08 they had just finished the World Atheistic Conference 24:13 the Keynote Speaker was a well-known Atheist, 24:17 a vocal Atheist and a powerful Atheist 24:20 and a... kind of a person who could sway you 24:23 and it was attended by thousands of... especially young people. 24:29 So when they came out of the Convention, 24:32 whoa, they were all gung-ho about Atheism... 24:36 "Man! that's the way to live, I mean, it's so reasonable 24:40 and it is so sub-standard to think of God 24:44 as being in existence," 24:45 when I landed there, 24:47 there were some small flyers that they sent out, 24:50 and some of these university students did get those flyers, 24:54 and they looked at it and they said, "Okay, let's go to that 24:57 and we will just wipe him off the table" 24:59 In fact they were going to shut you down? 25:01 That's right, so they came with their books, 25:03 they came with their pamphlets and with their arguments 25:08 and they sat down in the front row, 25:09 and when I began, the first thing I said was, 25:14 "Let's look at both the options, Atheism as well as Theism" 25:21 and their jaws just dropped open, 25:24 they did not expect a believer to look at both. 25:29 Hmmm... 25:30 They wanted me to bang the other side down 25:32 and they were ready with their arguments 25:34 so when I said, "Let's look at both" 25:36 I actually disarmed them. Yvonne: Yes, yes. 25:38 And so they said, "Okay, let's listen to him" 25:41 and when I finished that evening, 25:43 they slowly put away their books 25:46 and they listened even with more intent. 25:48 At the end of that short Seminar that I presented 25:52 they came up to the Organizers and said, 25:55 "Do you have Bible Studies on Wednesdays?" 25:58 Really! and they wanted to come to your Bible Studies... 26:04 Subodh: They did. 26:05 That's incredible, see, God will use you 26:10 to plant those seeds, 26:12 and then the Holy Spirit will water them and harvest them 26:17 wow! so where do you see... we have about 30 seconds, 26:22 where do you see God taking you 26:24 and we're going to put your website up on the screen 26:26 so people can contact you, you will do Seminars, correct, 26:29 and show people how to talk to people who are Atheists? 26:33 My goal, really is to get more people to understand 26:36 that we do have this information 26:39 and anyone who gets this information, 26:42 can stand tall, with his shoulders squared 26:45 with his head held high, you can face any criticism 26:49 that the world throws at you 26:50 because God has placed that with us 26:53 the evidences... that will show that He is the true God. 26:57 He is the true God, there is no God but God 27:02 and so we can just claim that and worship Him. 27:06 Thank you so much for being with us, 27:08 thank you for sharing with us, in the way that you did, 27:13 may God bless you with your ministry. 27:14 Thank you. 27:15 Website: searchseminars. org 27:17 Wow! that was some great information, 27:21 I know, for me, I've been approached 27:24 or I have approached people 27:25 who have not believed in God, 27:27 and I didn't even know what to say 27:29 because if you can't use the Bible, 27:30 you don't really know how to start with them 27:33 so, this was really great information 27:35 we really appreciate Dr. Pandit 27:38 and his efforts on our behalf, 27:40 and we really appreciate you, the Viewer, 27:43 thank you so much for your prayers 27:44 and your financial support of this ministry, 27:47 we really need you and appreciate all that you do. 27:50 Well, we've reached the end of another Program, 27:53 thanks for joining us, 27:55 join us next time, because you know what? 27:57 It just wouldn't be the same without you. |
Revised 2016-02-18