Does your
marriage need a tune-up?
00:00:01.16\00:00:02.78
Well, hang in there... my
guests have some scriptural
00:00:02.81\00:00:06.00
insights to share with you...
00:00:06.04\00:00:07.67
My name is Yvonne
Lewis and you're watching
00:00:07.70\00:00:10.17
Urban Report...
00:00:10.20\00:00:11.33
Hello and welcome
to Urban Report...
00:00:34.31\00:00:36.37
My guests today are Drs.
Trevor and Edith Fraser...
00:00:36.41\00:00:40.23
Co-founders and Co-directors of
Christian Family Life Seminars
00:00:40.27\00:00:44.82
they are marriage
counselors and authors of
00:00:44.86\00:00:47.96
"Saving Marriage by
Applying Biblical Wisdom"
00:00:48.00\00:00:51.07
Welcome to Urban
Report Drs. Fraser...
00:00:51.10\00:00:54.36
Thank you so
much... Thank you...
00:00:54.39\00:00:56.48
Yeah.. So glad to be here...
00:00:56.51\00:00:58.27
Oh, it's so great
to have you here...
00:00:58.30\00:01:00.41
you know... your book,
00:01:00.44\00:01:02.63
"Saving Marriage by
Applying Biblical Wisdom"
00:01:02.67\00:01:07.16
is just... it has
such profound information
00:01:07.19\00:01:11.61
in it... and I'm so thankful
that you've written this book...
00:01:11.65\00:01:14.74
because we really
need it... tell us what...
00:01:14.78\00:01:18.14
what prompted you
to write this book?
00:01:18.17\00:01:20.49
Well we thought it was...
should be a labor of love...
00:01:20.52\00:01:24.73
and it was from the background
that when we first started
00:01:24.77\00:01:28.83
our pastorate in New York
City in an urban environment
00:01:28.87\00:01:32.90
we realized that people
were really having problems
00:01:32.94\00:01:36.69
with the rat race that often
accompanies a situation like
00:01:36.72\00:01:42.10
any urban city...
and we really felt that
00:01:42.13\00:01:45.25
people were just passing each
other in the night... really...
00:01:45.28\00:01:48.48
Hmmm... really
struggling to maintain
00:01:48.52\00:01:51.37
and manage... and it
was natural for families
00:01:51.40\00:01:54.16
to feel that they have to do
that... in order to survive...
00:01:54.19\00:01:56.77
in an urban environment...
00:01:56.80\00:01:58.13
And one of the things
that happened also for us is
00:01:58.17\00:02:01.52
someone came to
us and they said,
00:02:01.55\00:02:03.33
"Well, you have
the perfect marriage"
00:02:03.37\00:02:05.05
we have been... now
married for 45 years...
00:02:05.08\00:02:07.77
but it wasn't
that many years then
00:02:07.81\00:02:10.59
and we laughed because,
what is a perfect marriage?
00:02:10.63\00:02:14.99
so, we thought we would look
at some Biblical examples...
00:02:15.03\00:02:20.57
of people who were
00:02:20.60\00:02:21.70
after God's own heart...
00:02:21.74\00:02:24.49
and see if they
had "perfect marriages"
00:02:24.53\00:02:26.98
and we found, in the Bible,
00:02:27.01\00:02:28.46
They were not so perfect...
00:02:28.49\00:02:29.92
no perfect marriages...
we didn't find any...
00:02:29.96\00:02:32.00
Well, because there are
no perfect people, right?
00:02:32.03\00:02:34.38
Absolutely... absolutely...
00:02:34.42\00:02:36.42
And it's a work in
progress... a marriage...
00:02:36.46\00:02:41.27
Yes... absolutely...
00:02:41.31\00:02:42.67
So, we felt... how do we
help people see... that...
00:02:42.70\00:02:47.69
that because we all are
00:02:47.72\00:02:50.72
created as we are...
we were created perfect
00:02:50.75\00:02:53.46
in the beginning... the
first couple... however,
00:02:53.49\00:02:55.83
subsequently,
sin... created the problem
00:02:55.87\00:02:58.77
and we now need to
learn how to resolve
00:02:58.80\00:03:01.67
and to work with each other...
00:03:01.70\00:03:03.04
so... how do we work with
each other as sinful creatures?
00:03:03.07\00:03:07.47
and I think we need the tools
00:03:07.50\00:03:11.62
to be able to
work with each other...
00:03:11.65\00:03:13.89
because... people are
different and, you know,
00:03:13.93\00:03:17.70
in the beginning... and
you address this in the book
00:03:17.74\00:03:20.99
you talk about
the four stages...
00:03:21.03\00:03:23.36
marriages have
stages and seasons...
00:03:23.40\00:03:25.60
and you talk about those four,
00:03:25.64\00:03:27.41
of togetherness, reality,
accommodation and transformation
00:03:27.45\00:03:31.39
and I thought, "Wow! that
is so interesting because... "
00:03:31.42\00:03:35.25
tell us... I want
you to explain that...
00:03:35.29\00:03:37.71
elaborate on those
four stages for us...
00:03:37.74\00:03:40.02
and why or what
happens in those four stages...
00:03:40.06\00:03:44.53
Well, the couple we
used to talk about the stages
00:03:44.56\00:03:49.00
of marriage was Adam and Eve...
00:03:49.03\00:03:50.61
and when couples
start off together...
00:03:50.65\00:03:54.48
they do everything together...
they can't imagine being apart
00:03:54.51\00:03:58.95
but then, you know,
when we do these workshops...
00:03:58.98\00:04:01.54
and we talk to people, they say,
"and then reality sets in... "
00:04:01.58\00:04:04.80
and they have to go
out and get a job...
00:04:04.83\00:04:06.82
and people begin
to differentiate...
00:04:06.86\00:04:08.84
they begin to be focused on
their jobs or their careers...
00:04:08.87\00:04:13.31
or children come in...
and so they're focused on that
00:04:13.35\00:04:16.23
and so, those kinds of
things impact marriages...
00:04:16.26\00:04:19.10
for example...
research has shown
00:04:19.14\00:04:21.27
that marital happiness goes
down at the birth of a child...
00:04:21.30\00:04:26.07
so you leave from
that "togetherness stage"
00:04:26.10\00:04:28.41
to a stage where
you are differentiating
00:04:28.45\00:04:30.72
and then you have to really work
00:04:30.76\00:04:32.46
on learning to
accommodate each other
00:04:32.50\00:04:35.01
and recognize those differences
and once you do that...
00:04:35.04\00:04:38.73
then you can really have a
marriage that's transformed...
00:04:38.77\00:04:42.42
but it's not just
automatic... in other words...
00:04:42.46\00:04:45.27
it's not like in the
movies where people kiss
00:04:45.31\00:04:48.09
and they live
happily ever after...
00:04:48.12\00:04:50.61
that's not for real...
00:04:50.65\00:04:51.78
But we really talk
about reality setting in
00:04:51.81\00:04:54.33
in such a way... that
bills have to be paid...
00:04:54.37\00:04:56.80
Hmmm... you have
to live... some place,
00:04:56.83\00:04:59.29
you have to eat...
those are some of those things
00:04:59.33\00:05:01.88
that you have to do... and
those often require a lot of
00:05:01.91\00:05:07.79
work...
negotiation... there may be...
00:05:07.82\00:05:12.94
as I was sharing
with my class yesterday...
00:05:12.98\00:05:15.20
that there may be issues
where sometimes we look at
00:05:15.24\00:05:17.94
you know, where
we used to think...
00:05:17.97\00:05:20.49
we look at role changes...
00:05:20.53\00:05:22.60
we look at roles now changed...
00:05:22.63\00:05:24.31
where it may be... the
woman that's bringing in
00:05:24.34\00:05:27.59
the larger salary... and
how do you negotiate that
00:05:27.63\00:05:32.08
in a Society where we thought
the men should bring home
00:05:32.11\00:05:36.55
that salary... or
the "bacon" as we say...
00:05:36.59\00:05:39.26
but what we realize is
that those things change...
00:05:39.29\00:05:42.49
so now we have to
make these adjustments
00:05:42.53\00:05:44.11
and we do need to
make those adjustments
00:05:44.15\00:05:45.70
in the urban context
00:05:45.74\00:05:47.02
because sometimes it
changes drastically...
00:05:47.05\00:05:49.43
Absolutely... let's talk
about that for a few minutes
00:05:49.47\00:05:53.40
if you would, what happens when
the roles are kind of reversed
00:05:53.44\00:05:59.25
and the woman makes more money
00:05:59.28\00:06:01.49
than the man...
or the husband...
00:06:01.52\00:06:03.52
the wife makes
more than the husband...
00:06:03.56\00:06:04.96
how do they keep things
going where he maintains
00:06:05.00\00:06:10.27
his sense of self-esteem...
and she remains to...
00:06:10.30\00:06:15.54
and she remains
somewhat submissive...
00:06:15.57\00:06:17.24
I know people
are going to send me
00:06:17.28\00:06:18.72
e- mails or
whatever about that...
00:06:18.76\00:06:20.13
but, I mean, where he
continues to feel as though
00:06:20.17\00:06:24.65
he is the "Man"
00:06:24.69\00:06:26.17
of the house...
00:06:26.21\00:06:27.62
Well... number one...
00:06:27.66\00:06:28.93
suppose the woman
is an Executive...
00:06:28.96\00:06:32.32
that's her job... which is why
she's making lots of money...
00:06:32.36\00:06:35.37
Right... she's not
the Executive at home
00:06:35.41\00:06:38.94
Oh come on now...
she should be clear
00:06:38.98\00:06:42.44
on her function and
role at home... and so,
00:06:42.48\00:06:46.76
the Bible, in Ephesians 5...
which is where you were quoting
00:06:46.79\00:06:50.52
it talks about wives submitting
but the verse before that...
00:06:50.55\00:06:54.16
we love to quote that
one... Trevor and I do...
00:06:54.20\00:06:56.19
because it says
that we should be
00:06:56.22\00:06:57.86
equally
submissive to each other...
00:06:57.90\00:06:59.47
Mutually submissive... Yes...
00:06:59.50\00:07:00.64
so, when you get home...
you can't order everyone around
00:07:00.67\00:07:06.10
including your spouse...
00:07:06.14\00:07:07.32
just because you're
the Executive at work...
00:07:07.35\00:07:10.25
and that would be true for
the man also... to be honest...
00:07:10.28\00:07:15.57
I mean, sometimes, men
who are in the Military
00:07:15.60\00:07:17.69
or who are policemen... who
are accustomed to, you know,
00:07:17.72\00:07:20.91
giving orders... they come home
and they give everyone orders
00:07:20.94\00:07:24.29
and the home is a separate
entity from your work...
00:07:24.33\00:07:27.54
and it's almost like
when you come to that door
00:07:27.58\00:07:30.76
you need to shed
some of those pieces...
00:07:30.79\00:07:33.21
so that you can work out a
00:07:33.25\00:07:35.70
collaborative
relationship in the home...
00:07:35.73\00:07:38.10
and I think that's one
of the ways it's done...
00:07:38.13\00:07:41.98
women come home
and they realize...
00:07:42.02\00:07:45.03
"We work together at home... "
00:07:45.06\00:07:46.99
"We are all in this together"
00:07:47.02\00:07:48.82
and I think by the same
token, a man has to realize
00:07:48.85\00:07:51.67
that in this new reality...
that we have to then know
00:07:51.71\00:07:54.49
how to work with each other,
00:07:54.52\00:07:55.90
we need to know how
to... as a matter-of-fact...
00:07:55.93\00:07:58.88
when I share with my students
the fellows in the classroom,
00:07:58.91\00:08:01.78
and by-the-way... the
relationship in college
00:08:01.81\00:08:04.13
classrooms is
something like 60 to 40...
00:08:04.16\00:08:07.03
60 percent women...
female and 40 percent male...
00:08:07.07\00:08:09.90
and the young man said to me,
00:08:09.94\00:08:11.93
"Well, I don't mind her working
and making the larger salary...
00:08:11.97\00:08:16.30
I think we can work it out... "
00:08:16.34\00:08:17.43
and I'm thinking...
"This is a new generation...
00:08:17.46\00:08:20.42
they're working out of
different realities here... "
00:08:20.45\00:08:23.10
I think in the past...
that would have been a struggle
00:08:23.13\00:08:25.74
for the man to make that shift,
00:08:25.78\00:08:27.73
I think they're making
that kind of shift because
00:08:27.77\00:08:30.74
they now realize that
this is more of a partnership
00:08:30.77\00:08:33.70
than anything else...
00:08:33.74\00:08:35.15
I think that's a great point...
about the new reality...
00:08:35.19\00:08:39.05
because I do notice
that there is a shift in
00:08:39.09\00:08:41.83
the idea of roles
and that kind of thing...
00:08:41.87\00:08:44.58
I mean... a lot of times...
00:08:44.61\00:08:46.02
men are more
involved in raising the baby,
00:08:46.05\00:08:50.20
nurturing the
babies and all that...
00:08:50.23\00:08:51.91
and that's kind of a shift...
00:08:51.94\00:08:53.31
which is a
welcome shift, I think...
00:08:53.34\00:08:55.12
but I think that's
a really good point...
00:08:55.16\00:08:57.61
and I should
mention that you are both...
00:08:57.64\00:09:00.08
you're both
professors... at schools
00:09:00.11\00:09:02.89
and so you are... not
only authors and lecturers
00:09:02.92\00:09:06.59
but you're also... professors...
00:09:06.63\00:09:08.58
at Oakwood and
Alabama A and M correct?
00:09:08.62\00:09:11.34
Well, I actually
recently retired so I'm actually
00:09:11.37\00:09:15.45
at home... and it's wonderful
00:09:15.49\00:09:16.91
so I do teach
one course at Oakwood
00:09:16.95\00:09:19.13
and I'm no longer at
A and M... but I was...
00:09:19.16\00:09:20.83
that's what's on the book...
you're absolutely correct...
00:09:20.87\00:09:22.99
Yes, yes, yes, yes,
and that is so good...
00:09:23.02\00:09:25.53
so you guys...
kind of stay plugged in
00:09:25.56\00:09:27.99
to what's going on
with our young people and
00:09:28.03\00:09:31.75
relationships... how
else, have you noticed that
00:09:31.78\00:09:35.47
relationships have
changed... over the years...
00:09:35.51\00:09:38.81
Well, you know, an interesting
thing has happened...
00:09:38.85\00:09:41.71
we get a number of
young couples who come to us
00:09:41.75\00:09:45.74
for Pre-engagement Counseling...
00:09:45.78\00:09:47.55
because we do a
number of things,
00:09:47.58\00:09:49.14
we do Pre-marriage
Counseling, we do counseling,
00:09:49.18\00:09:51.32
we do workshops
with the seminars
00:09:51.36\00:09:53.18
but they will come
to us and they'll say...
00:09:53.21\00:09:55.72
"Well, we're not sure
we want to get engaged...
00:09:55.76\00:09:58.97
so before we get engaged
we want pre-engagement...
00:09:59.00\00:10:02.18
and that is the
new phenomenon...
00:10:02.21\00:10:03.90
That is new because
they introduced it to us...
00:10:03.94\00:10:05.79
they requested it...
00:10:05.83\00:10:07.22
Ah, and so what's in that...
what's involved with that?
00:10:07.25\00:10:09.80
We're taking them
through a process of looking at
00:10:09.83\00:10:14.80
different roles...
looking at their uniqueness...
00:10:14.83\00:10:18.93
looking at... and I
say... their cultural background
00:10:18.97\00:10:22.55
and I say that...
because I recognize that almost
00:10:22.59\00:10:26.10
all of us... come from a
different cultural background...
00:10:26.13\00:10:29.57
So are you finding that in
this, kind of, new reality...
00:10:29.61\00:10:32.76
that we're in now...
young couples are more open
00:10:32.79\00:10:37.57
to receiving counseling...
than in previous years
00:10:37.60\00:10:42.35
or is it about the same?
00:10:42.38\00:10:43.77
I think they realize
00:10:43.80\00:10:45.93
that it is necessary because
of the complexity of the Society
00:10:45.97\00:10:51.66
they do not take it for granted
00:10:51.70\00:10:54.10
that they can maneuver
00:10:54.13\00:10:56.49
through this life... and
so they actually approach us
00:10:56.53\00:10:59.23
and say, you know, "I
want to know how I can
00:10:59.27\00:11:01.99
I can have some
pre-engagement counseling...
00:11:02.03\00:11:04.59
and when we first started
it... we had to then create
00:11:04.62\00:11:08.70
"Well, what would be different
00:11:08.73\00:11:10.07
from an engaged
couple... planning... "
00:11:10.10\00:11:13.11
and we had to think about...
and we have about 3 sessions
00:11:13.15\00:11:16.09
that we look at... and
there are some of the things
00:11:16.12\00:11:18.88
that we look at... for example,
00:11:18.91\00:11:21.12
we want them to look at their
uniqueness... who they are...
00:11:21.15\00:11:25.45
Another thing that we
think is really important is
00:11:25.48\00:11:28.75
what are some of
their core values...
00:11:28.78\00:11:30.49
so our premise is... you know...
people say this all the time
00:11:30.52\00:11:33.61
that opposites attract...
and we agree with that...
00:11:33.64\00:11:36.77
but you can't be
opposite in core values...
00:11:36.81\00:11:39.70
Hmmm... that is
such a good point...
00:11:39.74\00:11:43.03
that's where you're similar...
00:11:43.07\00:11:44.37
and so we get to
list their core values...
00:11:44.40\00:11:47.14
and then see them
together... and think about
00:11:47.17\00:11:49.87
what would be a
"mission statement"
00:11:49.91\00:11:51.54
that would reflect
this couple's life...
00:11:51.57\00:11:54.20
and so, those are the
kinds of things that we do...
00:11:54.24\00:11:56.73
in pre-engagement...
because we want them to know
00:11:56.77\00:12:00.56
"Are we really compatible?"
"Is this really going to work?"
00:12:00.60\00:12:04.38
and what is interesting,
Yvonne, when you've had people
00:12:04.42\00:12:07.90
who came with all intentions
of moving to the next stage...
00:12:07.94\00:12:11.39
Correct... and
after looking at their
00:12:11.43\00:12:14.62
differences... in
terms of their core values...
00:12:14.66\00:12:17.24
and after thinking about it,
00:12:17.28\00:12:18.59
because we want
them to process this
00:12:18.63\00:12:20.15
we want them to think about it,
00:12:20.18\00:12:21.27
they have changed
their minds... Correct...
00:12:21.30\00:12:23.51
and we've had all those who've
gone... the other direction
00:12:23.54\00:12:25.89
and say, "Well,
I think, I want...
00:12:25.92\00:12:27.53
I see now...
where I want to go...
00:12:27.57\00:12:28.99
in terms of the relationship. "
00:12:29.02\00:12:30.37
You know, that... to me,
identifying your core values...
00:12:30.40\00:12:35.21
that is key...
that is a critical piece
00:12:35.24\00:12:37.81
because if your values aren't...
if you're not on the same page,
00:12:37.84\00:12:42.05
with your core values...
that relationship is doomed...
00:12:42.08\00:12:46.18
Yes... You see,
what we think is...
00:12:46.21\00:12:48.20
is... okay... "I'm
rich... you're poor... "
00:12:48.23\00:12:52.81
that matters... "Class"
00:12:52.84\00:12:54.49
or we may think...
immigration status versus
00:12:54.53\00:12:58.06
not being an
immigrant which is "ethnicity"
00:12:58.10\00:13:01.14
or "race" all these
factors are important
00:13:01.17\00:13:04.18
and they do have some impact,
00:13:04.22\00:13:06.77
but if you have core
values that are similar...
00:13:06.81\00:13:10.00
if you believe that
"family" is important...
00:13:10.03\00:13:13.16
if you believe that
"working hard" is important...
00:13:13.20\00:13:16.18
or "working" period... yeah...
00:13:16.21\00:13:18.90
"honesty" is important...
if you have a code of ethics
00:13:18.93\00:13:23.40
that you operate
from... and they're similar...
00:13:23.44\00:13:27.29
then you're fine...
we're working with...
00:13:27.33\00:13:29.05
we're just about
completed pre-marital counseling
00:13:29.08\00:13:32.55
with a
couple... who he's Haitian
00:13:32.58\00:13:35.38
Hmmm... hmmm... and I
think she's Dominican...
00:13:35.42\00:13:41.75
Dominican... yeah... yeah...
in fact... that's one of their
00:13:41.78\00:13:44.86
challenges... when they
get with each other's family
00:13:44.89\00:13:47.90
that one's family speaks French
and the other one... Spanish...
00:13:47.94\00:13:51.46
so... you... but you know what?
00:13:51.49\00:13:53.32
their core
values... Hmmm... hmmm...
00:13:53.35\00:13:55.23
were on point...
00:13:55.27\00:13:56.93
and so, that's what
people don't realize...
00:13:56.96\00:14:00.28
that's what's really important
00:14:00.31\00:14:01.54
and that's what we
do... in Pre-engagement...
00:14:01.58\00:14:03.91
We worked with another
family another couple...
00:14:03.95\00:14:06.25
that's... he's Hispanic...
and she is Indian-American...
00:14:06.29\00:14:10.76
she has an
American... Native American
00:14:10.80\00:14:14.41
I'm talking
about Native American
00:14:14.44\00:14:15.48
and they had some different,
different views about things
00:14:15.52\00:14:20.87
but they had come to hold
00:14:20.90\00:14:22.54
a certain core value
00:14:22.57\00:14:24.03
that they
recognized as important...
00:14:24.07\00:14:26.17
for their family...
00:14:26.21\00:14:27.56
like certain things that
they don't think should be done
00:14:27.59\00:14:32.16
at home... they are
now... and really, they were not
00:14:32.20\00:14:36.77
they were of a different
spiritual persuasion...
00:14:36.80\00:14:39.85
and they have come
to bring those two...
00:14:39.88\00:14:42.98
values together... and
they've talked about it...
00:14:43.02\00:14:46.80
even in our counseling sessions,
I thought that's been phenomenal
00:14:46.83\00:14:50.49
we have watched them grow...
00:14:50.52\00:14:52.59
in that direction...
Correct... correct... yeah...
00:14:52.62\00:14:54.39
so, that's a powerful
thing that has happened...
00:14:54.43\00:14:57.47
Absolutely, absolutely...
so, what kinds of issues
00:14:57.51\00:15:00.57
do couples come to you
with... what are some of the
00:15:00.60\00:15:04.42
most common issues that they
come with... for counseling?
00:15:04.45\00:15:08.14
Well, as you might
expect... "communication"
00:15:08.18\00:15:14.02
Hmmm... hmmm...
couples either have
00:15:14.05\00:15:17.56
patterns of communication
that are ineffective...
00:15:17.60\00:15:23.03
or patterns of communication
that could be volatile
00:15:23.07\00:15:28.47
I mean, they argue all the time,
00:15:28.51\00:15:29.94
and so, what we have
to really look at is...
00:15:29.98\00:15:34.12
where do they learn these
patterns and then figure out
00:15:34.16\00:15:38.83
what works and
what doesn't work...
00:15:38.87\00:15:40.42
so I would think "communication"
is also an issue...
00:15:40.45\00:15:41.71
Well, you also have the issue of
00:15:41.75\00:15:43.19
knowing how
people have communicated
00:15:43.22\00:15:45.40
in their own
home... males, for example,
00:15:45.43\00:15:49.23
sometimes will find
are non-communicative
00:15:49.27\00:15:52.50
they don't
communicate much period...
00:15:52.53\00:15:55.69
and then you have
women who communicate...
00:15:55.73\00:15:59.34
and you can do it
reverse as well...
00:15:59.38\00:16:02.06
you can see that case as well...
but they are not communicating
00:16:02.10\00:16:06.01
so, their spouse or their pre...
00:16:06.04\00:16:09.82
the person that
they are dealing with
00:16:09.86\00:16:11.89
in terms of planning on
marrying they're trying to get
00:16:11.93\00:16:15.60
from them... certain ideas...
just knowing how they think...
00:16:15.64\00:16:20.42
how they developed
and what has happened...
00:16:20.46\00:16:23.01
so, they're struggling
with... "How to work this out...
00:16:23.05\00:16:26.41
and how do we
communicate with each other... "
00:16:26.44\00:16:28.86
and this is literally...
you're talking about...
00:16:28.89\00:16:30.66
as if it's communication...
there is no communication...
00:16:30.70\00:16:34.33
that's nothing
that's going between them...
00:16:34.36\00:16:35.88
and so, they have
to negotiate that...
00:16:35.91\00:16:37.71
they have to work that out...
00:16:37.75\00:16:38.79
And a lot of
couples have no concept
00:16:38.83\00:16:40.58
of how to have a
disagreement... Hmmm... hmmm...
00:16:40.61\00:16:44.64
either they don't...
they say, "Oh, we never argue"
00:16:44.68\00:16:48.70
well, that may not be a plus...
00:16:48.73\00:16:51.22
they're not
dealing with anything...
00:16:51.25\00:16:53.82
That's right...
what are some of the
00:16:53.86\00:16:56.38
tools or strategies
that you would recommend
00:16:56.41\00:17:00.42
in terms of conflict resolution,
00:17:00.45\00:17:02.67
"we're just at each
other all the time... "
00:17:02.71\00:17:06.09
arguing and arguing...
how would you unravel that
00:17:06.12\00:17:10.41
how would you
unpack that with the couple
00:17:10.44\00:17:12.48
and show them... how
to... which strategies...
00:17:12.51\00:17:15.31
what tools would they
use to resolve conflict...
00:17:15.34\00:17:18.11
You know, we almost
always recommend to them
00:17:18.14\00:17:22.51
"the spiritual option"
00:17:22.54\00:17:23.67
we say, first of all, you
need to pray for yourself...
00:17:23.70\00:17:26.90
Ah... start that
process with prayer
00:17:26.93\00:17:30.26
and we're not saying,
"Pray for her... or him"
00:17:30.30\00:17:34.16
but rather...
pray for yourselves...
00:17:34.20\00:17:36.35
start out... ask God
to give you the insight,
00:17:36.39\00:17:39.69
the direction... as you
move along in this process,
00:17:39.73\00:17:43.43
we do have a sort of
process that we switched on...
00:17:43.47\00:17:47.84
we say, first of all,
let's find a mutually acceptable
00:17:47.87\00:17:52.21
place and time...
00:17:52.25\00:17:53.59
And that's so important...
00:17:53.62\00:17:55.29
people often try
to have discussions
00:17:55.33\00:17:59.03
when it's not a good time...
someone comes in the door...
00:17:59.06\00:18:02.43
and you've been
simmering all this time
00:18:02.46\00:18:05.07
because they did... whatever...
00:18:05.11\00:18:06.20
and the minute they come in
the door... after a hard day...
00:18:06.23\00:18:08.83
you hit him...
you hit him with it...
00:18:08.87\00:18:10.71
that's not a good time...
00:18:10.74\00:18:13.18
So, timing is everything...
00:18:13.21\00:18:14.96
We were doing a
Couples Retreat somewhere
00:18:15.00\00:18:19.90
and we said,
"Give the person time...
00:18:19.93\00:18:24.76
don't say it when they
first come into the door...
00:18:24.80\00:18:27.70
be willing to
wait... " and one young lady
00:18:27.74\00:18:30.36
who was in the audience said,
00:18:30.40\00:18:31.79
"Well, how long
do we have to wait?"
00:18:31.82\00:18:33.24
I said, "You know, I'm not sure"
00:18:33.28\00:18:34.91
she said, "Because if I
have to wait more than 4 hours,
00:18:34.95\00:18:37.67
I'll just die... "
00:18:37.70\00:18:39.79
and, of course,
00:18:39.83\00:18:41.85
I did check with
some medical people...
00:18:41.89\00:18:43.56
and you actually can
wait longer than four hours...
00:18:43.60\00:18:46.12
She was right in the audience
00:18:46.16\00:18:47.28
so she did answer
this at this point...
00:18:47.31\00:18:49.23
so timing is important
a good place... I mean...
00:18:49.26\00:18:51.30
I don't think it's a good
idea to have a major argument
00:18:51.34\00:18:55.12
In a grocery store...
00:18:55.15\00:18:57.19
in a public forum... and
we use Esther with Xerxes
00:18:57.23\00:19:04.57
as an example of a woman
who knew that timing and place
00:19:04.61\00:19:08.46
was important...
think about it...
00:19:08.49\00:19:10.05
when she wanted to
share something with him...
00:19:10.09\00:19:12.50
she invited him to dinner...
she wined and dined him...
00:19:12.54\00:19:17.03
She already set the
context and the stage...
00:19:17.07\00:19:19.71
Absolutely... and
so, that's why we use
00:19:19.74\00:19:21.61
these Biblical couples...
and so, you have to have
00:19:21.64\00:19:25.00
timing... you have
to have the right place
00:19:25.04\00:19:27.76
and then... you need to
share how it feels for you
00:19:27.79\00:19:31.88
too often we share...
what we think the other person
00:19:31.92\00:19:35.97
has done wrong...
when it's so much better
00:19:36.01\00:19:38.27
if you share... how
it makes you feel...
00:19:38.30\00:19:41.22
That is such a good
point because so often
00:19:41.25\00:19:44.09
when you're involved in
discussing these things...
00:19:44.13\00:19:49.35
"well you did this
and you did that...
00:19:49.38\00:19:51.32
and you, you, you... " but
instead... if you say what's
00:19:51.35\00:19:55.01
"When this happened... it
made me feel this way... "
00:19:55.05\00:19:58.68
then you can't really invalidate
that as much as you...
00:19:58.72\00:20:02.57
you know... it
doesn't set the other person
00:20:02.60\00:20:05.20
on the defensive so much...
because it's your experience
00:20:05.24\00:20:08.89
of what
happened... Absolutely...
00:20:08.92\00:20:10.85
that is such a good point...
00:20:10.88\00:20:11.92
We categorize it as "I"
messages we put it in quotes
00:20:11.95\00:20:15.46
those are "I"
messages that we start out...
00:20:15.49\00:20:17.48
And we talk about speaking
the truth... but in love...
00:20:17.51\00:20:20.83
the Bible talks about that...
and then we suggest that couples
00:20:20.87\00:20:25.02
avoid some things like...
00:20:25.05\00:20:28.51
avoid
over-generalizations like...
00:20:28.54\00:20:30.39
"You never do this... "
"You always do this... "
00:20:30.42\00:20:33.14
well, of course,
00:20:33.18\00:20:34.25
as I remind the groups when
we are doing our workshops...
00:20:34.28\00:20:38.29
"You remember the 99
times they didn't do it...
00:20:38.33\00:20:41.80
they can remember the
one time they did... "
00:20:41.84\00:20:45.25
Right... so, of
course, they can get
00:20:45.29\00:20:47.24
defensive and say,
00:20:47.28\00:20:48.72
"Well, look, I did it...
you didn't even appreciate it"
00:20:48.75\00:20:50.66
so, if you avoid...
and we have even found that
00:20:50.70\00:20:54.58
in our marriage that
when either one of us
00:20:54.61\00:20:57.44
used that
"always" And we do argue...
00:20:57.48\00:20:59.86
And we do argue...
Yvonne: No, never...
00:20:59.90\00:21:02.21
Edith: Absolutely...
Trevor: You have to understand
00:21:02.25\00:21:05.70
when we need to talk
about... we work differently...
00:21:05.73\00:21:08.79
you know... as much as we
worked on the book together...
00:21:08.83\00:21:11.97
we found that there are
different times when we work...
00:21:12.01\00:21:15.12
so, that's natural...
00:21:15.15\00:21:16.38
and I think people
need to understand...
00:21:16.42\00:21:17.59
that there are some
natural things that happen
00:21:17.63\00:21:19.98
and we need to
work out some things...
00:21:20.02\00:21:21.75
you need to understand
what the other person is like...
00:21:21.79\00:21:23.86
my wife likes to
go to sleep early,
00:21:23.89\00:21:25.82
and I will stay up late...
00:21:25.86\00:21:28.37
we then work... I'll
say, "She's a rooster
00:21:28.41\00:21:31.24
and I'm just an
owl... " I'm an owl...
00:21:31.27\00:21:34.98
and so, we need to understand
that about each other...
00:21:35.02\00:21:38.45
we need to then know how we then
00:21:38.49\00:21:40.52
should work around those points
00:21:40.55\00:21:42.51
those are some of the
00:21:42.54\00:21:43.95
conflict resolution
things that we share...
00:21:43.99\00:21:45.74
I love that...
and I love the idea...
00:21:45.78\00:21:47.89
what you're saying...
00:21:47.93\00:21:50.49
and what I think I
hear you saying is that...
00:21:50.52\00:21:52.73
you accept the
person as they are...
00:21:52.76\00:21:56.39
and you make your adaptations,
00:21:56.42\00:21:58.61
each of you makes an adaption
00:21:58.64\00:22:00.76
or an
accommodation, if you will,
00:22:00.79\00:22:03.66
so that you can make
it work... Hmmm... hmmm...
00:22:03.69\00:22:07.88
otherwise, you can...
00:22:07.92\00:22:10.27
one of the things that you
mentioned in the book is how
00:22:10.31\00:22:12.79
people just grow
apart, when they're not really
00:22:12.82\00:22:16.23
spiritually intimate...
00:22:16.27\00:22:18.50
let's talk about
spiritual intimacy...
00:22:18.53\00:22:21.00
because I think...
that's a real important point
00:22:21.03\00:22:24.45
not enough couples, I
think, are really placing God
00:22:24.49\00:22:27.87
at the center of
their relationship...
00:22:27.91\00:22:30.26
let's talk a bit
about "spiritual intimacy"
00:22:30.30\00:22:32.79
Why is that important?
00:22:32.83\00:22:33.97
We start our first
counseling session...
00:22:34.01\00:22:37.27
when we start with
counseling... in terms of...
00:22:37.30\00:22:39.92
this is after we
pass the pre-engagement...
00:22:39.95\00:22:42.08
we even introduce
it in pre-engagement...
00:22:42.11\00:22:44.17
but we want to start
off in our first discussion
00:22:44.20\00:22:47.88
is bringing God as the
center, of the marriage...
00:22:47.91\00:22:51.28
starting... if you're
thinking about a relationship...
00:22:51.32\00:22:54.23
then you need to bring
God at the very beginning...
00:22:54.26\00:22:58.29
because God has given us
some ideas and some concepts
00:22:58.33\00:23:02.33
about... when He first
established Adam and Eve
00:23:02.36\00:23:05.97
one of the things that was
critical to this relationship
00:23:06.01\00:23:09.89
was that He would come
down and would be with them...
00:23:09.92\00:23:13.77
He was in their midst...
00:23:13.80\00:23:15.72
He expected...
as a matter-of-fact
00:23:15.75\00:23:17.00
the time when Adam and Eve
were running away from Him,
00:23:17.04\00:23:19.47
God was coming
to speak with them
00:23:19.51\00:23:23.23
to spend the time... and
so, it is in any relationship
00:23:23.26\00:23:27.41
this need for
God to be a part of
00:23:27.44\00:23:30.50
the first order, the first cause
you want to start with God...
00:23:30.54\00:23:34.25
so we believe that
couples should have their own
00:23:34.28\00:23:37.16
worship... we
often say that, you know,
00:23:37.19\00:23:39.57
you should have
individual worship...
00:23:39.61\00:23:41.88
but you also should
have couple worship...
00:23:41.91\00:23:44.90
and usually when I do
that... I share the fact that
00:23:44.93\00:23:48.12
on our honeymoon
night... my husband said to me
00:23:48.16\00:23:51.28
that there are two things
he wanted us to establish...
00:23:51.32\00:23:55.20
as foundational
concepts in our relationship...
00:23:55.24\00:23:59.26
and one was that we
would have worship everyday...
00:23:59.30\00:24:03.29
and I can honestly
say, he has been the
00:24:03.32\00:24:07.49
priest of our
household... and he assures us
00:24:07.52\00:24:11.41
that we have worship...
and, of course, I'll tell you
00:24:11.44\00:24:14.91
the other foundational piece...
00:24:14.95\00:24:16.03
and the other one was that
we would not go to bed angry
00:24:16.07\00:24:19.82
and I always jokingly said,
we did much better with the
00:24:19.86\00:24:23.58
first one than the
second... That's true...
00:24:23.62\00:24:27.54
Well, that
happens... how have you guys...
00:24:27.57\00:24:31.43
you've been married for
45 years what would you say,
00:24:31.46\00:24:35.52
and I love talking to
couples that have been married
00:24:35.56\00:24:39.58
for a long
time... and asking them,
00:24:39.62\00:24:41.71
"What do you think
00:24:41.74\00:24:42.87
is the secret to
having a successful marriage?"
00:24:42.90\00:24:47.65
Well, I think
that we initiated that
00:24:47.68\00:24:50.11
when we said that
God is the center...
00:24:50.14\00:24:52.50
I think that having God
be the primary personality
00:24:52.54\00:24:57.60
that we want to start and
to maintain this relationship
00:24:57.63\00:25:00.46
and the personality
that we go to when we need...
00:25:00.50\00:25:04.10
and all the time...
well, we start with that...
00:25:04.13\00:25:07.55
I mean, when we start in
the morning... we have...
00:25:07.58\00:25:09.48
we get up and we do have our
00:25:09.52\00:25:12.20
morning devotions at
worship... at worship...
00:25:12.24\00:25:14.84
we're not talking
about anything long,
00:25:14.87\00:25:17.24
but we start with prayer...
00:25:17.27\00:25:19.48
we start that way... and then...
00:25:19.52\00:25:21.18
I think people
really don't realize
00:25:21.22\00:25:26.10
that a marriage is hard work...
00:25:26.14\00:25:28.96
Hmmm... hmmm... and
you have to be committed
00:25:29.00\00:25:31.02
to the process 24/7 Hmmm...
00:25:31.05\00:25:34.14
and the other thing is that
we have worked... assiduously
00:25:34.17\00:25:37.58
on our marriage...
one thing that I do is
00:25:37.61\00:25:40.14
I'm always reading something...
I'm reading a book now
00:25:40.17\00:25:42.69
called "The Second
Half" it's talking about...
00:25:42.73\00:25:45.01
after you've been
married for 25 years...
00:25:45.04\00:25:47.62
that second half...
and so I'm reading that
00:25:47.66\00:25:50.20
so we're always working on it...
00:25:50.23\00:25:51.64
we go to "Couples
Retreats" for our marriage
00:25:51.67\00:25:54.56
at least once in a
year, sometimes more...
00:25:54.60\00:25:57.41
we do have "Date Nights"
where we spend time together
00:25:57.45\00:26:03.32
so, a marriage is something
00:26:03.36\00:26:05.34
that you never get to
the point where you say,
00:26:05.37\00:26:07.30
"Ah, we're happily married...
we don't need anything... "
00:26:07.33\00:26:10.65
no, we still have
to work on our marriage
00:26:10.69\00:26:12.53
we say that it is
a "work in progress"
00:26:12.56\00:26:14.33
and it gets better as
you make the investment...
00:26:14.36\00:26:18.54
And if we have
periods when we are too busy
00:26:18.58\00:26:22.72
that we don't
talk to each other...
00:26:22.76\00:26:24.26
and I find that we get testy
and there's more dissension
00:26:24.29\00:26:28.62
in the relationship...
because we need that
00:26:28.66\00:26:31.69
"together time" so,
we've got to carve time out
00:26:31.72\00:26:34.87
for this to work...
no relationship besides
00:26:34.91\00:26:37.99
that relationship...
which is "relationship with God"
00:26:38.02\00:26:40.08
is more important
than this relationship...
00:26:40.12\00:26:42.27
That's right... that's
right... that is beautiful...
00:26:42.31\00:26:45.65
Hold your book up for
us so our audience can see
00:26:45.68\00:26:48.99
this book... this
book is excellent...
00:26:49.02\00:26:51.81
How can they get it?
00:26:51.84\00:26:52.95
"Saving Marriage by
Applying Biblical Wisdom"
00:26:52.99\00:26:54.61
There are a number of
ways they can get it...
00:26:54.65\00:26:56.24
it's on
Amazon... and I believe...
00:26:56.27\00:27:01.95
we do our workshops...
and when we do our workshops,
00:27:01.98\00:27:06.84
we actually bring
them and sell them...
00:27:06.87\00:27:09.65
they can contact
us, we have copies...
00:27:09.68\00:27:12.39
so all of these are
options... That's great...
00:27:12.42\00:27:15.22
Thank you so much
for being with us...
00:27:15.25\00:27:17.24
Your book, "Saving Marriage
by Applying Biblical Wisdom"
00:27:17.27\00:27:21.01
is a wonderful book...
and I hope that our Viewers
00:27:21.05\00:27:24.34
will buy it... give
it as a gift to a couple
00:27:24.37\00:27:27.07
that you know...
it is a blessing...
00:27:27.11\00:27:28.69
thank you so much Drs. Fraser...
00:27:28.72\00:27:31.04
You're welcome...
We appreciate this...
00:27:31.08\00:27:32.56
God bless you... thank
you... Blessings to you...
00:27:32.60\00:27:34.55
Well, your marriage
may be in trouble...
00:27:34.59\00:27:38.37
so be sure to seek
God's wisdom in His Word...
00:27:38.41\00:27:41.91
Try to apply some of the
strategies that you heard today
00:27:41.95\00:27:45.41
to your situation...
and be of good courage...
00:27:45.44\00:27:48.70
God's got your back...
00:27:48.74\00:27:49.87
Well, that's the end of
our Program for today...
00:27:49.91\00:27:53.48
Thank you so
much for tuning in...
00:27:53.52\00:27:55.36
and join us next
time... because you know what?
00:27:55.40\00:27:58.05
It just wouldn't be
the same without you...
00:27:58.08\00:28:00.70