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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000513A
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00:10 [Music] 00:20 >>TY: Alright, guys, we've come to the conclusion of our 00:22 discussion, our really exciting conversation 00:26 regarding the Protestant reformation. 00:29 We've called this 13 part series the reformation series. 00:34 this is the 500th anniversary of the Protestant reformation 00:40 and so we thought it would be appropriate to just spend some 00:43 time tracing both the theology and the history of the 00:48 Protestant reformation and it's been a pretty exciting 00:51 discussion. 00:53 I've enjoyed it, I've learned new things, the insights that 00:55 you guys have brought have just opened my mind to new 00:58 perspectives on things I already knew and introduce 01:01 some things that I didn't know at all. 01:03 And we wanna really encourage people to do this very thing. 01:07 Table Talk is not the four of us around a table television 01:11 program. 01:13 Table Talk is, in fact, a way of doing life with your 01:16 friends, get together with people in your home, get 01:22 together with people around a table somewhere, in a circle 01:27 on sofas and chairs in the living room and just throw a 01:29 topic on the table, just say, hey what is this all about? 01:35 Throw a bible verse, a passage, a story, a parable, a 01:38 theological idea, on the table and say, what do you all think 01:41 of this? 01:43 So, we're not just doing this because we enjoy it, and we 01:46 thoroughly do enjoy it, we're doing this because we want to 01:49 encourage and model for others this venue, this avenue of 01:56 spiritual growth and development. 01:58 >>DAVID: Iron sharpens iron. 01:59 >>TY: Yeah, you will grow spiritually, exponentially, 02:01 you will grow if you open your mind to the input and insights 02:07 of others in your community of faith. 02:09 >>DAVID: And not only are you receiving, but just the act of 02:11 sharing. 02:12 That's right. 02:14 So, Table Talk, it's just been a joy to move through this 02:18 series on the reformation and now we have come to that part 02:21 of our discussion that we have decided to title the ongoing 02:26 reformation because we're convicted, we're of the 02:30 opinion that the reformation is not merely a historic 02:32 event. 02:35 So, we don't call the reformation an event that 02:37 happened in 1517. 02:39 It's a process. 02:40 It's a process. 02:41 We're a part of the ongoing reformation. 02:48 What a privilege it is to open the word of God and to pursue 02:53 the knowledge of Christ and salvation and the gospel for 02:57 ourselves around this table, and in the larger body of Christ, 03:02 and so, the reformation continues, it's an ongoing 03:04 reformation, and now, we're gonna talk about from Luther 03:08 forward, from all of those significant events that took 03:12 place even from the counter reformation, council of Trent, 03:16 at least the beginning of the reformation forward, what else 03:18 began to happen, there were later reformers, there were 03:23 others we have just maybe named in passing, some of them we have 03:26 not named. 03:28 Who were some of the significant figures besides 03:33 Luther and Calvin and Zwingli and Haas and Wycliffe and 03:39 Tyndale? 03:40 Who were some of the significant futures in the 03:44 continuing reformation leading us to where we are today? 03:46 >>DAVID: Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is that 03:49 we could do another 13 part series from this part forward. 03:55 Most of what we have done at this point has dwelt in and 03:58 around the 15th and 16th centuries, appropriately, 04:00 that's where we should be, right? 04:02 That's where the reformation begins. 04:04 Of course, there were people prior to Luther, and we've 04:06 talked about that, how Luther himself was standing on the 04:08 shoulders of a Haas or a Tyndale or a Wycliffe, excuse 04:13 me. 04:14 So, as the reformation progresses, and we begin to 04:17 have some of the major reformers like Luther and 04:19 Calvin dying, the reformation didn't stop, and we've talked 04:23 about that, how this was not a celebrity movement. 04:27 Certainly, there were figureheads in the movement 04:29 that had a lot to say and were formative in the development 04:32 of that movement, but with their passing, the reformation 04:35 rolled on. 04:37 It's ideas. 04:39 So, when we talk about the ongoing reformation, you can 04:42 talk about some names, well, let me just, before we get into 04:45 specific names we should say, and I don't think we've 04:47 mentioned up to this point that when a lot of people 04:50 described the reformation, they talk about really two 04:54 reformations, or the Protestant reformation in two 04:56 parts. 04:58 You have what's sometimes called the magisterial 05:00 reformers and then you have the radical. 05:02 >>TY: That's Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. 05:03 >>DAVID: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and that comes from, 05:05 the magisterial comes from the idea that the magistrate, the 05:10 state was Christian. 05:12 So you have this connection between church and state. 05:14 We said before that you didn't just come out of the 05:18 reformation, you don't come out of a thousand plus years 05:21 of darkness, spiritual darkness, biblical darkness, 05:23 etcetera, and then just step in one fail swoop into a new 05:27 reality. 05:28 That's not happening. 05:30 So, one of the things that the reformers had a difficult time 05:32 coming out of was the idea of persecution and of the 05:36 connection, the fundamental, societal, cultural connection 05:40 of church and state. 05:42 Maybe we should even talk about that. 05:44 Well, and so, that's the magisterial reformers, and 05:48 then the other are what were called the radical reformers. 05:50 You might say that the magisterial reformers were 05:54 slower, they said, you know, this will be incremental, the 05:57 church can be reformed. 05:59 The radical reformers said, nah, it's moldy, we need to 06:03 start from scratch. 06:05 And the magisterial reformers largely regarded the radical 06:08 reformers as heretics. 06:11 To such a degree that in some cases, this is gonna sound 06:14 astonishing, but for example, in 1527, Ulrich Zwingli 06:18 oversaw the martyrdom of Felix Mance. 06:24 >>TY: The first Protestant martyr to be killed by a 06:28 Protestant, yeah. 06:29 >>DAVID: And the heresy that he was promoting. 06:35 >>TY: Wait for it, wait for it, here it is. 06:36 >>DAVID: You ready for this big heresy? 06:38 Rebaptism. 06:40 So, in a magisterial situation, where the church 06:43 and the state are together, infant baptism is the way that 06:47 you not only become, not only become a follower of Jesus, 06:51 you become a citizen and these guys are running around, the 06:55 anti-Baptists were saying, no, not infant baptism, believers' 06:58 baptism, and Felix Mance was one of these, and at 29, he 07:01 was tied to a pole and taken out into the middle of the 07:07 Lemat river and in, where was this at? 07:10 It was in Switzerland, can't remember where, and he was 07:15 dumped in the water and he drowned. 07:17 >>JEFFERY: There's other examples you could mention, 07:19 too. 07:20 We've been talking about Luther and Luther's legacy 07:21 with religious liberty and so forth, but it was Luther 07:23 himself as well, later in his writings that came out against 07:26 the anti-Baptists and that council that we've been 07:29 celebrating, the council at Spire, 1529, where the German 07:34 princes protest against the encroachments of the empire 07:40 against the spread of Protestantism, that's where we 07:43 get the name Protestantism from, at that very council, 07:49 not only Catholics, but Protestants, Luther and 07:53 followers agreed that the anti-Baptists should be hunted 07:56 down, and if necessary, killed, because of their 08:00 doctrine, because of their heresy. 08:02 >>TY: Yeah, Luther's close friend and fellow bible 08:04 student, Malengthen, Philip Malengthen is the guy who 08:08 actually drafted the paper that Luther signed to say, 08:14 yeah, the anti-Baptists should all be slaughtered. 08:16 I mean, if you think about it, if you really think about it, 08:19 Luther had so many issues that we, just to make my point, we 08:27 would not regard him as a faithful believer today and he 08:33 would be willing to preside over our execution. 08:37 And yet, we're celebrating. 08:39 [Laughter] 08:40 >>DAVID: That's stark. 08:41 >>TY: Yeah, we're celebrating this man and more so, we're 08:45 celebrating the goodness and grace and large heartedness of 08:48 a God who is willing to use a man like that and use people 08:52 like you and me. 08:53 >>JEFFERY: One way to think of this whole process is that you 08:56 have the reformers coming out of Rome, but Rome did not 09:00 necessarily completely come out of them, right? 09:02 And it's like in the Old Testament, the Israelites 09:05 coming out of Egypt there in the wilderness, on their way 09:09 to the promised land, right, they're in their journey, 09:13 right, or rediscovering who they are as a people and yet, 09:18 to a large degree if you read the narrative in the writings 09:22 of Moses, they came out of Egypt, but Egypt had not 09:27 completely come out of them, right? 09:29 >>TY: God was doing the same thing with the children of 09:33 Israel coming out of Egypt that he was doing with the 09:35 Protestant reformers coming out of the dark ages, God was 09:39 condescending to remain in fellowship with them and to 09:42 guide them through their whole experience, regardless of the 09:46 fact that they were slaves for 400 years and they had ways of 09:50 thinking that were not going to come out easily. 09:54 One really good biblical example of this that I find 09:58 fascinating is that God intended to govern his people 10:04 through prophets. 10:07 Moses and the prophets. 10:09 What's a prophet? 10:10 A prophet is an educator. 10:12 What did God want for his people? 10:14 He wanted his people to be self governing through 10:17 knowledge. 10:18 He wanted them to be taught ways of thinking. 10:22 He wanted them to mature so that they could navigate life 10:26 in ways that were commiserate with the wisdom that you get 10:29 from a prophet. 10:30 A prophet's an educator, but the children of Israel, in due 10:33 time, said, we don't want a prophet to guide us, we want a 10:37 king. 10:38 Well, what's a king as opposed to a prophet? 10:41 A prophet's an educator, a king's a ruler. 10:44 And God said, actually, you do not want a king. 10:47 I have a higher ideal for you, I want you to teach the 10:51 writings, the teachings of the prophets morning and night to 10:55 your kids, I want you to raise them with the word of God so 10:58 that you teach them principles, but no, we wanna 11:01 be governed, we wanna be ruled. 11:03 And so, we see God doing an amazing thing in the biblical 11:07 narrative. 11:08 WE see God saying, if you get a king, that king is going to 11:13 tax your lands, take your sons off to war and take your 11:18 daughters as concubines. 11:20 And they said, we still want a king. 11:22 In other words, we want to interact with the surrounding 11:24 nations at the low level of principle at which they're 11:28 operating. 11:29 They operate by force, they operate by military, they 11:32 operate by rulership over and we wanna operate like that. 11:38 So, God says, I'm gonna give you a king. 11:40 God accommodates what the people want, and then, as you 11:44 continue the story forward, David, this is amazing to me, 11:50 David goes through his entire military career under God's 11:55 blessing. 11:56 God giving him victory after victory after victory, comes 11:59 to the end of his military career and David says, God, I 12:03 wanna build a temple for your worship, for your honor, for 12:06 your glory. 12:08 And God says, David, you can't build the temple for me 12:11 because you're a man of war and there's blood on your 12:13 hands, my temple will have to be built by a man of peace. 12:17 A man of peace at that point means, a man who is not a 12:24 military leader, but a leader that uses wisdom to govern 12:29 people from the inside up. 12:30 This is all new covenant versus old covenant paradigms 12:32 and that one is, that leader of peace that can build the 12:37 temple of God is gonna be Solomon, which means peace. 12:40 So, God's doing the same thing. 12:43 This is God's MO. 12:45 He's working with people like you and me when we're not 12:48 worthy to be worked with. 12:49 >>JEFFERY: I think the reason this is healthy to look at 12:51 sort of the dirty laundry of the reformers is because it 12:55 reminds us not to look in hindsight and to say, how 12:58 ridiculous is that? 13:00 I can't believe they would do that and believe that because 13:03 their experience and their limitations is really a 13:06 reflection of even who we are today, right? 13:09 >>JAMES: And who God is. 13:10 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, it's bizarre that Luther would stand up 13:15 against oppression, coercive power structures and then take 13:20 on that very same posture toward other people who 13:24 disagree with him. 13:26 It's bizarre how he's just basically replicating the very 13:29 thing he was protesting against, but that 13:32 inconsistency, I think, that's the story of humanity, I think 13:35 it's a caution for us as we look back at history, not to 13:39 project back to history, you know, our sense of superiority 13:43 and our knowledge. 13:44 >>DAVID: The word for that is anachronistic, when we look 13:47 back, when we judge then by now, and the truth of the 13:52 matter is that people were the same back then as they are 13:54 today. 13:55 WE don't see what we don't see. 13:57 We're blind to what we're blind to and Luther wouldn't 13:59 have even seen, at the time, an inconsistency in his 14:03 standing up against oppression and his participating in 14:05 oppression. 14:07 He would've had, in his mind, a good reason for that, we 14:11 now, with the luxury of history such as we have, can 14:13 look back and say, that was inconsistent. 14:16 How many times are we inconsistent, but we don't see 14:20 it? 14:21 Right, we don't see our own inconsistency. 14:23 >>JEFFERY: We will be judged by later generations. 14:25 >>DAVID: With what measure you judge, you yourself will be 14:28 judged, Jesus said. 14:29 So, we need to be careful that we allow grace, not just in 14:33 the way that we interact with our people here, but we think 14:36 about people in their historical context and 14:39 situation. 14:40 It doesn't excuse what Luther did, but it contextualizes it. 14:43 >>TY: How could the early framers of the American 14:51 experiment, people like Thomas Jefferson, people like George 14:57 Washington, how could these incredible figures have 15:05 written the things that they wrote and owned slaves? 15:10 So, right now, we have this same thing that's being 15:12 repeated. 15:13 Right now, in our world, there is a movement that is kind of 15:20 retroactively judging those founders of the American 15:26 experiment and saying they must've been bad men because 15:31 they owned slaves, they were inconsistent. 15:35 But they were coming out of, and they were the products of 15:38 their time, so they were stepping forward to the degree 15:41 that their human natures, their minds, their hearts could 15:46 bear stepping forward. 15:47 Abraham Lincoln, if we look at his situation carefully, 15:53 Abraham Lincoln who signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 15:59 what was it '63 or '64, '63, we look at him as a hero and 16:05 he was for what he did, but if you look at the details of 16:08 that history. 16:09 >>DAVID: He suspended the constitution. 16:11 >>TY: Yeah, that's right. 16:12 And so, he had political motives for sustaining, or 16:19 from his perspective politically, he wanted to 16:23 preserve the union. 16:25 Okay, so we have political motives. 16:27 So, we can look back and judge those guys, we can look back 16:29 and judge the reformers, we can look back and judge the 16:33 children of Israel coming out of slavery, but the fact is 16:37 that all of us, as human beings, are living life and 16:42 moving forward under a God who says there are many things I 16:47 would tell you right this very minute, but you can't bear 16:50 them, you can' process what I would explain to you, and so, 16:53 out of mercy, I'm gonna work with you where you are right 16:56 now and then, I'm just gonna finesse you forward to the 16:59 degree that you can bear it. 17:00 >>JAMES: You know, I see, I was thinking about that, 17:03 before you got to that verse, I was thinking about that in 17:05 our history and the history of the reformers in relation to 17:09 Christ and his disciples and I think you've got the same 17:11 thing happening there. 17:12 I think with Christ and the disciples, you can actually 17:15 have a group of men who are coming out a system that's 17:19 corrupt, I think some of them were already disenfranchised 17:22 with the system, with the religious system, anyway. 17:24 And they're coming out of a system that's corrupt and 17:28 meeting someone who is a Martin Luther, well, I won't 17:31 say a Martin Luther of his time, because this is God in 17:33 the flesh, there's no imperfections here, but still, 17:36 they're encountering reformation on a level that 17:40 they can't even comprehend and so, as they're moving along 17:44 through this, they encounter this situation where their 17:48 master, their teacher is mistreated by a group of 17:53 Samaritans. 17:54 And they say to him, hey, and they're going back to the Old 17:58 Testament, they're looking at Elijah from the Old Testament, 18:01 and they're quoting that to Christ, and they're saying, we 18:04 should call fire down from heaven, and immediately, you 18:07 know, you can just sense how God in humanity feels about 18:12 that, he basically recoils from it and says, you don't 18:15 even know what manner of spirit you're manifesting 18:17 right now, and the whole time they're moving through these 3 18:20 and a half years of instruction following Christ, 18:23 the whole time they're thinking in their minds, who's 18:26 the greatest? 18:27 Who's the greatest? 18:28 Is it Jeffrey, what's he doing right now? 18:31 >>TY: With hair like that, he's gotta be the greatest. 18:35 >>JAMES: He's got this, no, wait a minute, David, who's 18:39 the greatest, and like you said, Ty, Jesus, in trying to 18:44 transition them, he tells them the truth, he doesn't hold it 18:48 back, but he doesn't tell them all the truth, because they 18:51 can't bear all the truth right now. 18:53 Could Martin Luther have born it? 18:55 Could, yeah, but here we are now, here we are on the top 19:00 end of this, okay, we're saying the top end, we don't 19:02 know, but we're on the other end of this, we're hundreds of 19:04 years, 500 years post reformation, and we are, in 19:09 our minds, are looking back and going, whoa, how crude was 19:11 that? 19:13 >>DAVID: And here's a thought I had when you just said that, 19:15 could Martin Luther have born it? 19:17 Let's just imagine the thought experiment where he could, 19:19 let's just imagine that thought experiment. 19:21 so we import to him. 19:23 We download into his 1517 mind, all of the things that 19:27 we now know, not just talking about us, but just things that 19:30 we have come to accumulatively through time, he is not a 19:36 relevant voice. 19:38 He would, he could not, there's no way you could take 19:42 what we're talking about now, he would've been regarded as 19:45 an insane person. 19:46 It had to not be just a man for the times, in some sense, 19:50 he had to be a man of the times. 19:52 >>TY: But here's a remarkable thing, what he presented in 19:58 seed or in embryo, in principle, was in fact, what 20:04 we enjoy now. 20:06 >>DAVID: Of course, embryonically. 20:08 >>TY: Yeah, embryonically, it's the same thing, he was 20:10 the one, he planted a seed that grew into something that 20:13 he couldn't imagine. 20:14 >>JAMES: It's kinda like this, when my son was born, we 20:18 through the process of his early years, we bought 20:21 this little chair that you would hook into the kitchen 20:25 counter. 20:26 You would just slide it in and hook it in and we would sit 20:28 him in this chair. 20:29 It's kind of like a portable baby chair. 20:31 We hook him into this chair. 20:32 And then we'd get a plate of food and we'd put the food in 20:34 front of him and we would you know, get him going on how to 20:38 eat, and he'd be putting spoons into the bowl and 20:40 putting them in his mouth and about, I'd say 80% of that 20:45 food ended up on the chair, on the bib, on the floor, on the 20:49 counter, right? 20:50 And 20% of it was in his mouth, okay. 20:53 >>TY: It's amazing he's alive. 20:54 [Laughter] 20:55 >>JAMES: Fast forward, fair point, and when he's 2 years 20:59 old, when he's 3 years old, we're like, yeah, look at 21:01 that, he's eating, look at him go, whoa, you rock Martin 21:06 Luther, you rock, but fast forward now 5 years, 500 21:11 years, 5 years. 21:12 So, now my son is 5 years old. 21:14 >>DAVID: That would not be considered acceptable. 21:16 >>JAMES: That's not acceptable. 21:18 You can allow maybe 20% to go out, but 80% of that food, it 21:23 needs to go in and that's where we are, in the 21:27 reformation. 21:28 >>TY: That's a very good illustration. 21:29 >>DAVID: It's funny, when you started with that, I was like, 21:30 I was trying to imagine this fast forward, where is he 21:32 going with this? 21:33 But that's a great illustration. 21:35 >>TY: Hey, guys, we need to take a break, but this has 21:36 been really enlightening so far, God is merciful. 21:40 been really enlightening so far, God is merciful. 21:41 [Music] 21:54 >>This is the story of Niyima, who took a bus to the 21:58 doctor and found a piece of paper with words of hope about 22:02 Jesus, which was left by a church member who unpacked a 22:07 box that came from a truck which drove in from Durban 22:11 where a ship was docked that sailed from Seattle, loaded 22:15 with containers stacked high with millions of tracts, 22:19 trucked in from the Light Bearers Publishing House, 22:23 where more than 600 million pieces of gospel literature 22:26 have been printed in 42 languages. 22:30 Here's the amazing thing, Light Bearers distributes this 22:33 literature free of charge all over the world, and each piece 22:38 costs only 5 pennies to print, transport, and deliver. 22:43 Every day, millions of people buy a $5 cup of coffee, $5 a 22:49 cup, 5 days a week. 22:52 It adds up fast. 22:54 But at just 5 cents a piece, that same $25 can also ship 22:59 500 pieces of literature and give hope to people like 23:04 Niyima, who shared that paper with a classmate, who gave it 23:09 to her cousin, who shared it with his boss, who passed it 23:13 to her grandmother, who left it on another bus, where it 23:18 will be found by someone else. 23:21 And the story continues. 23:24 Five cents doesn't buy a lot these days, but in other parts 23:28 of the world, your nickel could change someone's life. 23:31 Your gift of $25 a month sends out 6,000 pieces of gospel 23:37 literature each year. 23:39 Fifty dollars sends out 12,000, and $100 a month sends 23:44 out 24,000 messages of hope every year, all over the 23:49 world. 23:51 Empower Light Bearers to continue the story. 23:55 Send your gift through lightbearers.org, or by 23:58 calling 877-585-1111. 24:03 Who knew 5 little pennies could do so much? 24:07 [Music] 24:13 >>TY: So, we're moving forward from the primary 24:19 reformers that launched the entire process of coming out 24:24 of those dark ages, but now let's name some of the key 24:28 figures, what we've called radical reformers, late 24:32 reformers, who are some of these individuals and what did 24:36 they contribute to the overall picture and the advancement of 24:40 the reformation. 24:42 Who stands out to you guys? 24:43 >>DAVID: Well, can I just say something and I'll give you 24:45 somebody that does stand out to me, it's funny, if you 24:47 listen to the language we're using, we use this language, 24:50 we're saying things like coming out, moving forward, 24:52 progressing. 24:53 What I like about this is it suggests an end point. 24:57 It suggests that we're going somewhere, this isn't just a 24:59 meandering, oh, that and then that and then that, it's 25:02 directional, it's intentional, it's teleological. 25:05 We're going somewhere. 25:07 And the idea is, is that we're going to a place, not just of 25:11 reformation, if you can sort of imagine a graph where the 25:14 church is formed by Christ and its apostolic purity, then in 25:18 the medieval period, it becomes significantly 25:20 deformed, and then, now we have a reformation. 25:23 Now, this reformation is on a continuum, but that continuum 25:26 is directional, it's going somewhere and it would not be 25:28 an overstatement to say that where it's going is 25:30 restoration, to apostolic, back to this. 25:35 It's not just, hey, we're doing better than we were, you 25:38 know, better than down here, a little better, a little 25:40 better, a little better, and each of these progressive 25:42 reformers were the magisterial, and then, later 25:45 the radical reformers were, as it were, handing the baton of 25:48 progress on. 25:50 So, and then, and then, and then, so that these people 25:53 could be not just of the times, but for the times. 25:56 They could be speaking to their time to their situation. 25:59 So, a name that I love is Roger Williams. 26:04 >>TY: What a guy, what a guy, what a guy. 26:06 >>DAVID: That was almost like a bark. 26:08 >>JAMES: A growl. 26:10 >>JEFFERY: That was my dude. 26:11 No, no. 26:13 >>DAVID: I did my little thing. 26:14 >>JEFFERY: No, I wanna hear what you're gonna say, 'cause 26:15 I'm gonna bring it back to me. 26:16 >>TY: you're like the two chipmunks in that cartoon I 26:17 grew up watching, no, you first, you first, you first. 26:20 >>JEFFERY: I was just gonna say that you have, it's 26:23 interesting, you have the church of Rome and then you 26:25 have a reformer, right, with the message protesting against 26:30 abuses here, right? 26:32 But this reformer, he or she is also incomplete, right? 26:40 >>TY: Well, it was a he, it was Martin Luther. 26:42 >>JEFFERY: Right, and so then, from here, God calls another 26:44 reformer, not even reaching back here, but taking this a 26:48 step further, so when I think of Roger Williams, that's how 26:52 I think of it 'cause you have Luther and we mentioned the 26:55 anti-Baptists who were persecuted by Protestants, and 27:00 then you have these very anti-Baptists that now have to 27:02 flee, they now have to be exiled as they're fleeing 27:07 persecution to other parts of Europe and then, eventually, 27:09 they make it to the Americas, right? 27:12 And it's interesting to me reading early American history 27:15 that, when the puritans arrived, Massachusetts Bay 27:18 Colony, these are heirs of the Reformation, right? 27:23 And yet, they establish religious intolerance on these 27:29 shores. 27:30 They legislate church attendance and then, as is, as 27:34 has been true throughout church history then, there is 27:36 voices that now rise to the occasion to protest against 27:41 that and so, that's where Roger Williams fits, 'cause he 27:45 gets kicked out, he gets run out of town by Protestants 27:49 because of the issue of religious intolerance. 27:54 Roger Williams says, wait, what are we doing? 27:56 How do you legislate religion? 27:58 And he writes his book, what is it? 28:00 The Bloody Tenance of, ah, what was it? 28:05 Here, give me one second, The Bloody Tenance of Persecution. 28:09 That he writes this piece, 1630s or so, and in that 28:14 piece, he says that one of the issues with legislating 28:18 religion is that you're creating a generation of 28:20 hypocrites. 28:22 Because they don't believe it in their hearts, you are 28:24 forcing them, externally, to some confession of faith and 28:29 you have two problems here, number one, you're enforcing 28:31 the gospel, number two, you're creating hypocrites. 28:35 >>TY: You literally create secret sin, an environment for 28:38 hidden darkness to be going on while the surface looks right. 28:42 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, so you have the, okay, what about this, 28:46 you have the Protestant reformation being reformed. 28:50 >>DAVID: Yes, correct. 28:52 >>JEFFERY: Right? 28:53 The Protestant reformation itself is being reformed and 28:57 that's the continuum, it's on a continuum, it has to 29:00 be under constant reformation. 29:03 >>DAVID: So, Williams becomes as a later reformer, and 29:07 himself, an anti-Baptist, somebody who advocates 29:10 believer's baptism, I wanna say a word about that in just 29:14 a second, he advocates this radical notion, in fact, 29:16 correct me if I'm wrong here, he may have been the first 29:20 person to coin the idea, the phrase that we take absolutely 29:24 for granted today in the modern world, the separation 29:26 of church and state, I think he described what he called a 29:29 hedge between the two, that each have their domains but 29:33 those domains are not interlocking. 29:35 That's gonna become a huge part later of the development 29:38 of what we take for granted in the United States 29:40 Constitution. 29:41 Right, when we get together and they set out the founding 29:44 fathers of this country and they say, you know what, we 29:47 need to have a, the Constitution, we need to grant 29:50 a series of freedoms, right, Bill of Rights, what's the 29:53 first one? 29:55 Right? 29:57 What is it? 29:58 It's that Congress is not gonna legislate religion. 30:01 So, that idea goes back. 30:03 You don't just get there from Luther. 30:05 The magisterial reformers and Calvin in Geneva would've 30:08 regarded that as absurd. 30:10 >>JEFFERY: Calvin in Geneva, Michael Cerates. 30:14 >>DAVID: That's correct. 30:16 >>JEFFERY: The Spanish physician, burnt at the stake 30:17 for his beliefs and Calvin is signing off on it. 30:23 >>DAVID: You said they could come out of Rome, but could 30:26 Rome come out of them? 30:28 And so, it wasn't that they disagreed on the idea of 30:31 persecution or of the physical enforcement of religious ideas 30:37 and Christianity, they just said, hey, we're just gonna do 30:39 it on better terms. 30:41 You know, we're doing it on scripture, you've done it on 30:42 tradition. 30:43 You move forward, move forward, move forward, move 30:45 forward, and Williams says, that whole system is broken. 30:47 >>TY: They were simply saying, they were saying, you're, 30:49 yeah, they're enforcing heresy, but we have the truth, 30:55 we're enforcing the truth. 30:57 >>DAVID: And what Williams says is the idea of 30:59 enforcement is itself heresy. 31:01 Religious enforcement. 31:03 >>TY: And he's exiled for it. 31:05 >>DAVID: He's exiled for it and there's this great story 31:07 that, you know, these guys were heroes, man. 31:10 And as he's fleeing a snowstorm comes and he hides 31:14 inside of a log. 31:17 He hides inside of a log, now, this man, Roger Williams, was 31:19 fluent in some 7 native dialects. 31:23 Now, when we say Native, I mean Native American. 31:26 He could speak and communicate and do commerce with the 31:30 Native tribes, and when he fled, he went and hid for a 31:33 time among the Native peoples because they would receive 31:38 him. 31:39 In fact, he began to teach them about his Savior in a way 31:42 that was really non-coercive and beautiful and biblical and 31:46 it came to the point where some of these Natives wanted 31:50 to be baptized, this is crazy. 31:51 Some of these Natives wanted to be baptized and Williams 31:53 refused to baptize them. 31:55 Not because they were heathen, not because they didn't have a 31:58 full understanding, he didn't baptize them because he said, 32:01 you are more Christian than many of the Christians into 32:05 what church would I be baptizing you. 32:08 This is a guy who's on the cutting edge not only of the 32:11 hedge between church and state, but of misiology. 32:14 How do we bring the message of Jesus? 32:17 Do we dominate a culture? 32:18 Do we destroy a culture? 32:20 Do we tear down a culture to build up western civilization? 32:22 Or do we go in and build bridges? 32:25 Integrate. 32:26 >>TY: Yeah, there is no holy culture. 32:28 >>DAVID: Today, the buzzword in evangelism and in pastoral 32:33 ministry, church ministry is incarnational evangelism. 32:37 It's just what Jesus did. 32:38 He came down, he tabernacled among us, he dwelt, that's 32:41 Williams. 32:42 You go, you dwell with them, you understand, oh, that's why 32:44 they do that. 32:45 You glean from their culture. 32:47 You then, as Paul did in Athens, you take the gospel 32:50 and you communicate it in a way that makes cultural sense 32:54 and is relevant. 32:55 And it's logical. 32:57 >>TY: Yes, and then, Roger Williams did one of the most 33:00 remarkable things in history. 33:03 He founded, he founded a colony, a state, Rhode Island. 33:11 >>JEFFERY: Some people say rogue, Rogue Island. 33:14 >>TY: Rogue Island, well, in a sense, it was, but he founded 33:16 Rhode Island, and essentially, he founded it on the premise 33:19 of religious freedom and he said, he said Jews could come 33:23 here, which was significant because Martin Luther and 33:27 others going way back were persecuting Jews, he said, no, 33:31 you can come here and stay Jews and you can set up shop 33:34 here and you can do business and... 33:36 >>DAVID: Puritans, Congregationalists, Baptists, 33:38 anti-Baptists, come. 33:39 >>TY: American Native peoples, anybody can be here and we're 33:43 not going to enforce any belief system, it was genuine 33:48 liberty of conscience that this guy was amazing. 33:51 Roger Williams, he was so ahead of his time. 33:55 >>JEFFERY: But that would've been completely against the 33:57 Massachusetts Bay Colony and the interesting thing is that 33:58 when they came over, it's, we're gonna set up a city on a 34:01 hill, that's the famous statement, John Winthrop. 34:03 A city on a hill, so that the rest of the world could see 34:06 what this sort of theocracy is gonna run like and but the 34:12 interesting, what I think is interesting is, and this goes 34:15 very well with a key theme we've been talking about this 34:18 entire series, and that is, it all trickles down from your 34:23 picture of God. 34:25 Massachusetts Bay is thinking, God has elected us to do this 34:31 thing. 34:32 Roger Williams says, that's not, that thing is not 34:36 something God would do. 34:39 See what I mean? 34:41 So, the debates, these discussions, these 34:46 disagreements and arguments that are taking place are not 34:48 in a vacuum. 34:49 Massachusetts Bay, the old guard is saying, this is what 34:53 God has called us to do. 34:55 And Roger Williams says, that's impossible, because the 34:58 kind of God we're talking about would not do that sort 35:02 of thing. 35:04 It all flows from your picture of God, from how you perceive 35:10 God to be and for God to behave, and from there, you deduce 35:14 your doctrinal content, and that's why he knew, the gospel 35:18 can't be enforced because God doesn't enforce belief, which 35:22 is pretty powerful. 35:24 So, the reformation is being reformed throughout history. 35:30 >>DAVID: I love it, I even loved it when you pounded on 35:32 the table, that was hot, bam, bam, bam. 35:35 >>TY: That's the way it is, but you're not gonna persecute 35:37 anyone. 35:38 Emphatic about that. 35:41 >>DAVID: What we see here and this is not exactly the topic, 35:44 but I just think it's fascinating what I'm gonna 35:46 make this point, I am of the strong perspective, and I 35:50 might get some pushback here, maybe I won't, that this 35:54 ongoing development, meeting people, accommodating them 35:57 where they are and moving from A to B, not A to Z, A to B, B 36:01 to C, C to, that sort of incremental advancement, I 36:04 think that's what's happening in the Old Testament. 36:06 God is communicating with people. 36:09 >>TY: That's what I said, that was my whole point. 36:12 >>DAVID: I guess I was asleep. 36:14 >>TY: That was, I spent like 3 minutes, I felt guilty for 36:17 going so long with that explanation. 36:20 >>JEFFERY: Great opportunity to reemphasize it. 36:23 >>TY: The children of Israel coming out of Egyptian 36:25 bondage, 400 years of slavery. 36:27 >>DAVID: Got it, I was like, man, I got this great idea. 36:31 [Laughter] 36:34 >>JEFFERY: But your point is powerful, that's what's been 36:36 happening ever since chapter 3. 36:39 >>TY: I said, this is the divine MO. 36:42 That's okay, that's okay. 36:45 >>JAMES: I look like Ty used to look with a beard. 36:47 >>DAVID: Can I just borrow your notes so I can just take 36:50 all your ideas before you say them? 36:52 >>TY: Sure. 36:53 But it bears repeating. 36:56 It gives us hope that God is working with us in our fallen 37:02 dysfunctional. 37:04 >>DAVID: Now, this is a crazy idea, it's a, this is a little 37:06 bit avant guarde, it's on the edge, but you know, you 37:10 mentioned that God blessed David in his conquest, okay, I 37:14 do remember this. 37:15 [Laughter] 37:16 Thank you. 37:17 God blessed David, that's right, but wouldn't allow him 37:21 to build the temple. 37:22 God's accommodation is, I think, sometimes, messier than 37:26 we imagine. 37:28 I think it's an immersion in the human situation and he 37:33 uses situations, circumstances so much so that he's like, 37:37 look, you're gonna go into Canaan, they don't go in, so 37:41 he's like, hm, how are we gonna do this? 37:44 What options do I have available to me? 37:46 He accommodates that situation, it becomes a 37:47 military takeover. 37:49 Originally, it could've been hornets, right? 37:52 He would drive them out. 37:53 So, God's accommodating even sometimes, accommodating to 37:57 such a degree that it is far from his ideal. 38:01 Jonah in a fish. 38:02 This is not, this is not what God would normally do. 38:06 >>JEFFERY: But even worse, sometimes, indistinguishable 38:08 whether or not God's the one actively calling for this, or 38:11 accommodating his people doing this, and that's what makes 38:13 the Old Testament messy. 38:15 >>DAVID: Well, there's a brand new book that's just been 38:17 released, a fascinating book, I haven't read it yet, but I 38:19 can't wait to read it, and it's called The Crucifixion of 38:22 the Warrior God, and in that book, Gregory Boyd, a 38:26 well-known evangelical theologian, somebody whose 38:28 work I have a lot of respect for. 38:30 I don't agree with everything he says, and I'm not sure I 38:31 agree with this, 'cause I haven't read it yet, but his 38:34 idea is basically that God is moving people incrementally, 38:38 specifically on the track of violence, that he starts them 38:41 here and come, come, come, come, come, okay, this is, and 38:43 then you get to the cross, and you says, that is not, God was 38:47 moving here, and he is not an inflictor of violence, he in 38:53 the big scheme of things is willing to have violence 38:56 inflicted on him. 38:57 Look at the cross. 38:58 So, the cross is where it's going. 39:00 Which, that's true, and I need to read his whole thesis, 39:02 that's a fascinating idea that, 'cause let's be honest. 39:06 The reason a lot of people turn away from God is they 39:09 read the stories of the Old Testament. 39:10 Right? 39:12 Isn't that true? 39:13 They say, man, I can't wrestle with that, they say, but this 39:14 is an accommodation. 39:16 >>TY: Here's a case in point, David, here's a case in point. 39:17 As the reformation, because we're talking about the 39:20 ongoing reformation, unfolds, we have Luther, Calvin, 39:24 Zwingli, all of which presided over their own coercive 39:27 enforcing of what they believe. 39:30 The anti-Baptists didn't just believe in adult baptism and 39:35 baptism by conversion, they also championed non-violence. 39:41 They were pacifists, they were conscientious subsectors, and 39:45 we around this table, we happen to be Seventh Day 39:49 Adventists, and we received a heritage from that strain of 39:52 Protestantism of conscientious objector position with regards 39:57 to war. 39:59 >>DAVID: And the movie was just released, you know, 40:02 Hacksaw Ridge, which is this celebration, this beautiful, 40:05 glory celebration of a man that I met, did you guys meet 40:09 him as well? 40:10 >>TY: I never met him. 40:11 No. 40:12 Desmond Doss. 40:12 >>DAVID: What a story. 40:13 >>TY: Yeah. 40:14 So, I'm saying that the Protestant reformation 40:16 continued on with people like the anti-Baptists, people like 40:19 Roger Williams, people like the Mennonites, who did see 40:23 that, at the core of the gospel is non-coercive love. 40:29 That only by love is love awakened and love is the agent 40:33 God uses to expel sin from the heart. 40:35 And they deduced, they reasoned forward from that 40:38 gospel premise, right? 40:41 And they landed, gradually, in a position of non-violence and 40:48 their view of separation of church and state grew to the 40:51 point where they said, okay, this is America, this is 40:54 Germany, this is France, this is Italy, my citizenship is 40:59 with a different kind of kingdom that is not of this 41:02 world, yeah, I'm an American, but I can push back on the 41:07 military exploits of my nation and say, hey, I'll serve if 41:14 I'm, if I'm called upon to serve, but I'm not going to 41:18 bear arms. 41:19 I'm not gonna shoot anybody from Germany or from wherever 41:24 because my view is that the kingdom of God transcends 41:27 national borders and so, there could be a believer in Christ 41:32 right over there across that national line that, if I have 41:37 a rifle, do you see what I'm saying? 41:40 Or even a non-believer, but you see, the point, the 41:44 reformation, the gospel has in it the seeds of non-coercion, 41:50 non-violence, that's where the thing goes until you have the 41:54 God of the universe hanging on a cross. 41:59 And basically defying the entire world system of solving 42:07 problems with strength and power and coercion rather than 42:11 forgiveness and love and mercy. 42:13 It's on the level of astounding when that finally 42:19 registers. 42:21 So, we're four minutes over. 42:24 >>DAVID: It's alright, take a break. 42:25 >>TY: Let's take a break and we'll come right back. 42:28 [Music] 42:38 [Music] 42:39 Announcer: The Light Bearers Story is a short award-winning 42:43 video that gives an inside look at one of the boldest and 42:45 most effective missionary ventures of our time. 42:49 You will see how multiple millions of gospel 42:51 publications are flooding the nations free of charge by 42:54 surprisingly simple means. 42:56 For your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, call 42:59 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 43:05 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 43:11 Once again, for your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, 43:15 call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers 43:21 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 43:26 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 43:29 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 43:31 [Music] 43:38 >>TY: So, the reformation continues. 43:39 It's an ongoing reformation. 43:42 It doesn't stop with Calvin, it doesn't stop with Luther, 43:46 it doesn't stop with Tyndale, it doesn't even stop with 43:50 we've gotten all the way to Roger Williams, it doesn't 43:53 stop. 43:55 >>DAVID: It hasn't stopped with us. 43:57 >>TY: It hasn't stopped with us. 43:58 >>DAVID: To say that it's stopped is to say, we have 44:01 arrived at full perfection of knowledge. 44:03 >>TY: Yeah, I can tell you with clarity that I right this 44:06 moment disagree with earlier versions of myself. 44:09 [Laughter] 44:10 So, the reformation does continue. 44:15 Here's a question, what are some practical areas of 44:21 application of reformation principles to me, to us, to 44:26 you? 44:27 How does the reformation continue for the individual 44:30 believer and for the church as a whole? 44:32 How does it continue? 44:33 >>JEFFERY: Well, one analogy that we can maybe get more 44:35 specific from, launch from, one analogy, in my mind, it's 44:38 when I think of the reformers, I think, this was a reaction 44:42 where they began to identify things in their religious 44:46 world that were obstacles in their way to get to God, 44:52 right? 44:53 We've named some of these doctrines, we've named some of 44:54 these abuses, these were things that were hindering 44:57 their ability, their capacity to connect with God. 45:01 We think of Luther, remember, we think of him with this 45:05 picture of a dark God, a dark, he even grew to dislike, 45:08 because of certain things in his framework of what God was 45:13 like. 45:14 So, I, as I'm reading the reformation, I have now taken 45:17 that and looked inside, some self, yeah, self inventory. 45:25 What are some things in my own life, some ways that I relate 45:30 to God or that I think of God that are actually obstacles in 45:36 my way from connecting with God? 45:39 Okay, now, I'm not getting into any specific application. 45:42 >>TY: Why not? 45:44 >>DAVID: We both said the same thing, why not? 45:48 >>JEFFERY: Not that I will not, what I'm saying is that 45:49 in itself does not explain any specific applications, but 45:53 that's a framework, I think that we can use, that the 45:57 individual can use to apply what was going on during the 46:01 reformation to my life now. 46:04 Right? 46:05 So, we look inside and say, what are those things? 46:06 Another analogy would be the 95 theses, right? 46:11 he nailed it to the church door. 46:14 Well, we need to be nailing our own theses to our own 46:17 hearts, right? 46:18 Theses are things that we are protesting against that are 46:20 getting in our way. 46:22 >>TY: Wow, that's powerful. 46:23 You're basically saying protest self. 46:25 Not just protest others outside of, you're saying 46:28 protest things in myself. 46:31 >>JEFFERY: We don't see things and say, yeah, yeah, now let's 46:34 go out and get them, let's go out and get all the wrongness 46:38 in religion today, and we project outward. 46:41 No, stand in front of the mirror and say, what needs 46:43 reformation? 46:45 >>JAMES: So, in other words, do we exile people today 46:48 rather than us or persecute people today or kill people 46:54 today? 46:55 Do we kill their influence. 46:56 If there's someone that doesn't have the theology that 46:59 we have, if they don't see things the way we see things, 47:02 are we gonna kill their influence? 47:04 Are we gonna drown their influence? 47:06 Are we gonna exile them from our little group, from our 47:08 sphere, from our circle? 47:10 'Cause we talked about it earlier, we talked about the 47:12 idea of dealing with issues rather than the way we treat 47:15 people. 47:16 Jesus Christ came when he walked on planet earth, he 47:22 dealt with issues, not with people. 47:25 And so, he loved people. 47:26 He hung out with anyone and everyone who was open to hang 47:31 out with him. 47:32 Whether they were Saducees, Pharisees, you know, 47:35 Nichodemus at night, the Samaritan woman, the 47:37 publicans, the sinners, whoever it was, yeah, he would 47:40 connect with them, but he would always stay faithful to 47:43 the truth, he would always stay faithful to the character 47:47 of God, to the revelation, the mission that God had given him 47:51 to reveal himself to the world, and yet, he didn't 47:55 isolate people, he didn't cut people off, he didn't 47:57 persecute people, he didn't kill people in the sense that 48:01 we're talking about today, and I think that is something 48:05 that's very like you said. 48:06 How do we nail this 95 theses to our own hearts? 48:10 When we look in the mirror, how do we see the principles 48:12 of reformation continuing on to our time? 48:16 'Cause we could be ever so right about what we think and 48:20 what we believe, we could be ever so, we could be, you 48:22 know, think about it now, think about this. 48:24 The reformers were so cutting edge that they got excited and 48:29 they were so excited and enthusiastic, they thought, 48:31 this is gonna blow your mind, wait a minute, you're not 48:35 seeing this? 48:36 What do you mean you're not seeing this? 48:37 You're out of here, buddy. 48:40 You are dead, and you can imagine, this is us. 48:44 So, do we cop the same attitude, there's people on 48:48 the fringes that aren't quite keeping up with us, that 48:51 aren't quite where we are, all of you can think of someone 48:53 right now, just think of somebody right now. 48:55 >>DAVID: And denominationally. 48:56 >>JAMES: Us, we right here, sitting right here, just think 48:58 of somebody right now that just isn't quite keeping up. 49:01 >>DAVID: I'm thinking of Jeffrey. 49:03 [Laughter] 49:05 >>JAMES: I'm not giving them any kind of, no, that's it. 49:09 >>DAVID: But did you hear what I said, James, we do that 49:10 denominationally. 49:12 Right, let's be honest. 49:13 We say, you pick your denominational affiliation and 49:17 they're gonna say, we've basically got it figured out, 49:22 it's all fine and good. 49:23 Most people think they're right about what they think 49:25 they're right about. 49:26 No problem there. 49:27 But then, to take, and I like what you're saying there, a 49:30 judgmental or a, nothing wrong with judging ideas, but when 49:35 we become judgmental of people, I think that's what 49:37 you meant when you said Jesus was dealing with ideas. 49:40 >>TY: Listen, our minutes are numbered for this final 49:43 episode of the reformation series. 49:46 The 95 theses that I wanna nail to my heart is that if 49:51 the reformation was based on the idea that I can't earn 49:54 God's favor because I already have it, what I wanna apply to 49:58 myself is that I not relate to people in such a way that they 50:03 have to earn my favor. 50:06 That they're out on the edges and they gotta do something to 50:10 get my love, my acceptance, my forgiveness, my grace, that's 50:14 what I wanna nail to my heart and man, this has been a great 50:18 discussion, let's just briefly state where we've come from. 50:21 It's a 13 part series, the reformation, the reformation 50:25 series, we began with Hebrew roots Christianity and 50:31 established that God's entire system is based on covenantal 50:35 love and faithfulness. 50:37 We moved on and we saw that in the next 2 parts that there is 50:42 a movement in history that was prophesied of that would come 50:44 against that basic principle. 50:47 And then, the entire reformation is built on the 50:49 premise that God is in the process of restoring 50:53 covenantal faithfulness or relational integrity between 50:56 himself and people and between people and people. 50:59 And now, we've applied the reformation to our own hearts 51:04 in this final discussion. 51:07 It's just been quite a journey and we need to let people know 51:13 out there that we, we're the ones sitting around this 51:17 table, but man, we just wanna give a word of gratitude and 51:21 thanks to the crew behind the scenes who are just making 51:25 this happen. 51:26 We're just sitting here yapping, but there are all 51:29 these people that we have, Jim Huenergardt, who is our 51:33 producer for this series and the brains behind the 51:36 technical operation of things. 51:38 We've got Stephan Vidano behind the scenes, who is just 51:40 an artist extraordinaire when it comes to video production, 51:45 that is working with Jim. 51:47 We've got on the cameras Brandon and we've got on 51:49 audio, we've got Richard, other cameras, we've got Josh 51:53 and Blake and Brian and wow, thank you to all of these guys 51:59 who are able to make this happen. 52:02 We are super grateful for the part that you're playing even 52:05 though you're behind the scenes, and then, finally, we 52:08 just wanna say thank you to all the Table Talkers out 52:11 there who are viewing, who are sitting in with us, on 52:16 whatever television network you happen to be watching this 52:19 on. 52:20 Thank you for joining us and thank you for setting up your 52:23 own environment in which Jesus can be glorified in friendly 52:29 conversation around tables and the reformation can continue 52:34 to its final and ultimate end in which God is glorified 52:38 above all. 52:39 >>JAMES: Yeah, thank you, Jesus. 52:40 >>DAVID: Hallelujah. 52:42 [Music] 52:52 蛂usic] |
Revised 2018-01-18