[Music]
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[Music]
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>>TY: Alright, guys, we've
come to the conclusion of our
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discussion, our
really exciting conversation
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regarding the
Protestant reformation.
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We've called this 13 part
series the reformation series.
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this is the 500th anniversary
of the Protestant reformation
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and so we thought it would be
appropriate to just spend some
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time tracing both the
theology and the history of the
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Protestant reformation and
it's been a pretty exciting
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discussion.
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I've enjoyed it, I've learned
new things, the insights that
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you guys have brought
have just opened my mind to new
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perspectives on things I
already knew and introduce
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some things that I
didn't know at all.
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And we wanna really encourage
people to do this very thing.
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Table Talk is not the four
of us around a table television
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program.
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Table Talk is, in fact, a
way of doing life with your
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friends, get together
with people in your home, get
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together with people around
a table somewhere, in a circle
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on sofas and chairs in the
living room and just throw a
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topic on the table, just
say, hey what is this all about?
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Throw a bible verse, a
passage, a story, a parable, a
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theological idea, on the table
and say, what do you all think
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of this?
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So, we're not just doing
this because we enjoy it, and we
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thoroughly do enjoy it, we're
doing this because we want to
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encourage and model for others
this venue, this avenue of
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spiritual
growth and development.
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>>DAVID: Iron sharpens iron.
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>>TY: Yeah, you will grow
spiritually, exponentially,
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you will grow if you open your
mind to the input and insights
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of others in your
community of faith.
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>>DAVID: And not only are you
receiving, but just the act of
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sharing.
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That's right.
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So, Table Talk, it's just
been a joy to move through this
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series on the reformation and
now we have come to that part
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of our discussion that we have
decided to title the ongoing
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reformation because
we're convicted, we're of the
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opinion that the reformation
is not merely a historic
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event.
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So, we don't call the
reformation an event that
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happened in 1517.
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It's a process.
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It's a process.
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We're a part of the
ongoing reformation.
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What a privilege it is to open
the word of God and to pursue
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the knowledge of Christ and
salvation and  the gospel for
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ourselves around this table, and
in the larger body of Christ,
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and so, the reformation
continues, it's an ongoing
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reformation, and now, we're
gonna talk about from Luther
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forward, from all of those
significant events that took
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place even from the counter
reformation, council of Trent,
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at least the beginning of the
reformation forward, what else
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began to happen, there
were later reformers, there were
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others we have just maybe named
in passing, some of them we have
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not named.
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Who were some of the
significant figures besides
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Luther and Calvin and Zwingli
and Haas and Wycliffe and
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Tyndale?
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Who were some of the
significant futures in the
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continuing reformation leading
us to where we are today?
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>>DAVID: Well, the first thing
that comes to my mind is that
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we could do another 13 part
series from this part forward.
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Most of what we have done
at this point has dwelt in and
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around the 15th and 16th
centuries, appropriately,
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that's where we
should be, right?
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That's where the
reformation begins.
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Of course, there were people
prior to Luther, and we've
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talked about that, how Luther
himself was standing on the
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shoulders of a Haas or a
Tyndale or a Wycliffe, excuse
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me.
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So, as the reformation
progresses, and we begin to
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have some of the major
reformers like Luther and
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Calvin dying, the reformation
didn't stop, and we've talked
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about that, how this was
not a celebrity movement.
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Certainly, there were
figureheads in the movement
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that had a lot to say and were
formative in the development
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of that movement, but with
their passing, the reformation
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rolled on.
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It's ideas.
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So, when we talk about the
ongoing reformation, you can
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talk about some names, well,
let me just, before we get into
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specific names we should
say, and I don't think we've
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mentioned up to this
point that when a lot of people
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described the reformation,
they talk about really two
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reformations, or the
Protestant reformation in two
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parts.
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You have what's
sometimes called the magisterial
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reformers and then
you have the radical.
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>>TY: That's
Luther, Calvin, Zwingli.
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>>DAVID: Luther, Calvin,
Zwingli, and that comes from,
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the magisterial comes from the
idea that the magistrate, the
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state was Christian.
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So you have this connection
between church and state.
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We said before that you
didn't just come out of the
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reformation, you don't come
out of a thousand plus years
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of darkness, spiritual
darkness, biblical darkness,
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etcetera, and then just step
in one fail swoop into a new
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reality.
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That's not happening.
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So, one of the things that the
reformers had a difficult time
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coming out of was the
idea of persecution and of the
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connection, the fundamental,
societal, cultural connection
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of church and state.
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Maybe we should
even talk about that.
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Well, and so, that's the
magisterial reformers, and
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then the other are what were
called the radical reformers.
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You might say that the
magisterial reformers were
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slower, they said, you know,
this will be incremental, the
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church can be reformed.
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The radical reformers said,
nah, it's moldy, we need to
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start from scratch.
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And the magisterial reformers
largely regarded the radical
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reformers as heretics.
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To such a degree that in
some cases, this is gonna sound
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astonishing, but for
example, in 1527, Ulrich Zwingli
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oversaw the
martyrdom of Felix Mance.
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>>TY: The first Protestant
martyr to be killed by a
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Protestant, yeah.
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>>DAVID: And the
heresy that he was promoting.
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>>TY: Wait for it,
wait for it, here it is.
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>>DAVID: You ready
for this big heresy?
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Rebaptism.
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So, in a magisterial
situation, where the church
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and the state are together,
infant baptism is the way that
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you not only become, not
only become a follower of Jesus,
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you become a citizen and these
guys are running around, the
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anti-Baptists were saying, no,
not infant baptism, believers'
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baptism, and Felix Mance
was one of these, and at 29, he
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was tied to a pole and
taken out into the middle of the
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Lemat river and
in, where was this at?
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It was in Switzerland,
can't remember where, and he was
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dumped in the
water and he drowned.
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>>JEFFERY: There's other
examples you could mention,
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too.
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We've been talking about
Luther and Luther's legacy
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with religious liberty and
so forth, but it was Luther
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himself as well, later in his
writings that came out against
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the anti-Baptists and
that council that we've been
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celebrating, the council at
Spire, 1529, where the German
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princes protest against
the encroachments of the empire
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against the spread of
Protestantism, that's where we
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get the name Protestantism
from, at that very council,
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not only Catholics,
but Protestants, Luther and
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followers agreed that the
anti-Baptists should be hunted
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down, and if necessary,
killed, because of their
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doctrine,
because of their heresy.
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>>TY: Yeah, Luther's
close friend and fellow bible
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student, Malengthen,
Philip Malengthen is the guy who
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actually drafted the
paper that Luther signed to say,
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yeah, the anti-Baptists
should all be slaughtered.
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I mean, if you think about it,
if you really think about it,
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Luther had so many issues that
we, just to make my point, we
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would not regard him as a
faithful believer today and he
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would be willing to
preside over our execution.
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And yet, we're celebrating.
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[Laughter]
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>>DAVID: That's stark.
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>>TY: Yeah, we're celebrating
this man and more so, we're
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celebrating the goodness and
grace and large heartedness of
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a God who is willing to use
a man like that and use people
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like you and me.
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>>JEFFERY: One way to think of
this whole process is that you
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have the reformers coming
out of Rome, but Rome did not
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necessarily completely
come out of them, right?
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And it's like in the Old
Testament, the Israelites
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coming out of Egypt there
in the wilderness, on their way
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to the promised land,
right, they're in their journey,
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right, or rediscovering who
they are as a people and yet,
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to a large degree if you read
the narrative in the writings
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of Moses, they came out
of Egypt, but Egypt had not
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completely come
out of them, right?
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>>TY: God was doing the
same thing with the children of
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Israel coming out of
Egypt that he was doing with the
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Protestant reformers coming
out of the dark ages, God was
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condescending to remain in
fellowship with them and to
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guide them through their whole
experience, regardless of the
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fact that they were slaves for
400 years and they had ways of
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thinking that were not
going to come out easily.
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One really good biblical
example of this that I find
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fascinating is that God
intended to govern his people
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through prophets.
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Moses and the prophets.
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What's a prophet?
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A prophet is an educator.
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What did God
want for his people?
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He wanted his people to
be self governing through
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knowledge.
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He wanted them to be
taught ways of thinking.
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He wanted them to mature so
that they could navigate life
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in ways that were commiserate
with the wisdom that you get
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from a prophet.
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A prophet's an educator, but
the children of Israel, in due
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time, said, we don't want a
prophet to guide us, we want a
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king.
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Well, what's a king
as opposed to a prophet?
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A prophet's an
educator, a king's a ruler.
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And God said, actually,
you do not want a king.
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I have a higher ideal for
you, I want you to teach the
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writings, the teachings of the
prophets morning and night to
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your kids, I want you to raise
them with the word of God so
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that you teach them
principles, but no, we wanna
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be governed, we wanna be ruled.
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And so, we see God doing an
amazing thing in the biblical
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narrative.
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WE see God saying, if you get
a king, that king is going to
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tax your lands, take your
sons off to war and take your
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daughters as concubines.
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And they said, we
still want a king.
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In other words, we want to
interact with the surrounding
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nations at the low level
of principle at which they're
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operating.
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They operate by force,
they operate by military, they
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operate by rulership over
and we wanna operate like that.
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So, God says, I'm
gonna give you a king.
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God accommodates what the
people want, and then, as you
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continue the story forward,
David, this is amazing to me,
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David goes through his entire
military career under God's
00:11:50.61\00:11:55.01
blessing.
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God giving him victory after
victory after victory, comes
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to the end of his military
career and David says, God, I
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wanna build a temple for your
worship, for your honor, for
00:12:03.89\00:12:06.99
your glory.
00:12:06.99\00:12:08.09
And God says, David, you
can't build the temple for me
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because you're a man of
war and there's blood on your
00:12:11.26\00:12:13.83
hands, my temple will have
to be built by a man of peace.
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A man of peace at that
point means, a man who is not a
00:12:17.50\00:12:24.17
military leader, but a leader
that uses wisdom to govern
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people from the inside up.
00:12:29.24\00:12:30.45
This is all new covenant
versus old covenant paradigms
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and that one is, that leader
of peace that can build the
00:12:32.95\00:12:37.62
temple of God is gonna be
Solomon, which means peace.
00:12:37.62\00:12:40.52
So, God's doing the same thing.
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This is God's MO.
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He's working with people
like you and me when we're not
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worthy to be worked with.
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>>JEFFERY: I think the reason
this is healthy to look at
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sort of the dirty laundry
of the reformers is because it
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reminds us not to look
in hindsight and to say, how
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ridiculous is that?
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I can't believe they would
do that and believe that because
00:13:00.28\00:13:03.04
their experience and
their limitations is really a
00:13:03.04\00:13:06.45
reflection of even
who we are today, right?
00:13:06.45\00:13:09.05
>>JAMES: And who God is.
00:13:09.05\00:13:10.22
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, it's bizarre
that Luther would stand up
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against oppression, coercive
power structures and then take
00:13:15.52\00:13:20.33
on that very same
posture toward other people who
00:13:20.33\00:13:24.13
disagree with him.
00:13:24.13\00:13:26.57
It's bizarre how he's just
basically replicating the very
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thing he was
protesting against, but that
00:13:29.84\00:13:32.34
inconsistency, I think, that's
the story of humanity, I think
00:13:32.34\00:13:35.14
it's a caution for us as we
look back at history, not to
00:13:35.14\00:13:39.15
project back to history, you
know, our sense of superiority
00:13:39.15\00:13:43.75
and our knowledge.
00:13:43.75\00:13:44.95
>>DAVID: The word for that
is anachronistic, when we look
00:13:44.95\00:13:47.72
back, when we judge then
by now, and the truth of the
00:13:47.72\00:13:52.43
matter is that people were
the same back then as they are
00:13:52.43\00:13:54.96
today.
00:13:54.96\00:13:55.96
WE don't see what we don't see.
00:13:55.96\00:13:57.10
We're blind to what we're
blind to and Luther wouldn't
00:13:57.10\00:13:59.87
have even seen, at the
time, an inconsistency in his
00:13:59.87\00:14:03.64
standing up against oppression
and his participating in
00:14:03.64\00:14:05.94
oppression.
00:14:05.94\00:14:07.11
He would've had, in his
mind, a good reason for that, we
00:14:07.11\00:14:11.08
now, with the luxury of
history such as we have, can
00:14:11.08\00:14:13.38
look back and say,
that was inconsistent.
00:14:13.38\00:14:16.95
How many times are we
inconsistent, but we don't see
00:14:16.95\00:14:20.36
it?
00:14:20.36\00:14:21.29
Right, we don't see
our own inconsistency.
00:14:21.29\00:14:23.69
>>JEFFERY: We will be
judged by later generations.
00:14:23.69\00:14:25.96
>>DAVID: With what measure
you judge, you yourself will be
00:14:25.96\00:14:28.40
judged, Jesus said.
00:14:28.40\00:14:29.60
So, we need to be careful
that we allow grace, not just in
00:14:29.60\00:14:33.97
the way that we interact with
our people here, but we think
00:14:33.97\00:14:36.84
about people in their
historical context and
00:14:36.84\00:14:39.44
situation.
00:14:39.44\00:14:40.68
It doesn't excuse what Luther
did, but it contextualizes it.
00:14:40.68\00:14:43.78
>>TY: How could the
early framers of the American
00:14:43.78\00:14:51.35
experiment, people like Thomas
Jefferson, people like George
00:14:51.35\00:14:57.99
Washington, how could
these incredible figures have
00:14:57.99\00:15:05.30
written the things that
they wrote and owned slaves?
00:15:05.30\00:15:10.71
So, right now, we have
this same thing that's being
00:15:10.71\00:15:12.14
repeated.
00:15:12.14\00:15:13.38
Right now, in our world, there
is a movement that is kind of
00:15:13.38\00:15:20.85
retroactively judging
those founders of the American
00:15:20.85\00:15:26.79
experiment and saying they
must've been bad men because
00:15:26.79\00:15:31.33
they owned slaves,
they were inconsistent.
00:15:31.33\00:15:35.26
But they were coming out of,
and they were the products of
00:15:35.26\00:15:38.03
their time, so they were
stepping forward to the degree
00:15:38.03\00:15:41.67
that their human natures,
their minds, their hearts could
00:15:41.67\00:15:46.17
bear stepping forward.
00:15:46.17\00:15:47.91
Abraham Lincoln, if we
look at his situation carefully,
00:15:47.91\00:15:53.88
Abraham Lincoln who signed
the Emancipation Proclamation in
00:15:53.88\00:15:59.19
what was it '63 or '64, '63,
we look at him as a hero and
00:15:59.19\00:16:05.39
he was for what he did, but
if you look at the details of
00:16:05.39\00:16:08.73
that history.
00:16:08.73\00:16:09.73
>>DAVID: He
suspended the constitution.
00:16:09.73\00:16:11.73
>>TY: Yeah, that's right.
00:16:11.73\00:16:12.77
And so, he had political
motives for sustaining, or
00:16:12.77\00:16:19.27
from his perspective
politically, he wanted to
00:16:19.27\00:16:23.75
preserve the union.
00:16:23.75\00:16:25.35
Okay, so we have
political motives.
00:16:25.35\00:16:27.35
So, we can look back and judge
those guys, we can look back
00:16:27.35\00:16:29.75
and judge the reformers,
we can look back and judge the
00:16:29.75\00:16:33.52
children of Israel coming
out of slavery, but the fact is
00:16:33.52\00:16:37.33
that all of us, as human
beings, are living life and
00:16:37.33\00:16:42.53
moving forward under a God
who says there are many things I
00:16:42.53\00:16:47.07
would tell you right this
very minute, but you can't bear
00:16:47.07\00:16:50.21
them, you can' process what
I would explain to you, and so,
00:16:50.21\00:16:53.78
out of mercy, I'm gonna work
with you where you are right
00:16:53.78\00:16:56.58
now and then, I'm just
gonna finesse you forward to the
00:16:56.58\00:16:59.38
degree that you can bear it.
00:16:59.38\00:17:00.95
>>JAMES: You know, I see,
I was thinking about that,
00:17:00.95\00:17:03.25
before you got to that verse,
I was thinking about that in
00:17:03.25\00:17:05.62
our history and the history
of the reformers in relation to
00:17:05.62\00:17:09.12
Christ and his disciples
and I think you've got the same
00:17:09.12\00:17:11.39
thing happening there.
00:17:11.39\00:17:12.56
I think with Christ and
the disciples, you can actually
00:17:12.56\00:17:15.50
have a group of men who
are coming out a system that's
00:17:15.50\00:17:19.70
corrupt, I think some of them
were already disenfranchised
00:17:19.70\00:17:22.17
with the system, with
the religious system, anyway.
00:17:22.17\00:17:24.81
And they're coming out of
a system that's corrupt and
00:17:24.81\00:17:28.11
meeting someone who is a
Martin Luther, well, I won't
00:17:28.11\00:17:31.71
say a Martin Luther of his
time, because this is God in
00:17:31.71\00:17:33.72
the flesh, there's no
imperfections here, but still,
00:17:33.72\00:17:36.92
they're encountering
reformation on a level that
00:17:36.92\00:17:40.09
they can't even comprehend
and so, as they're moving along
00:17:40.09\00:17:44.63
through this, they encounter
this situation where their
00:17:44.63\00:17:48.36
master, their teacher
is mistreated by a group of
00:17:48.36\00:17:53.03
Samaritans.
00:17:53.03\00:17:54.27
And they say to him, hey, and
they're going back to the Old
00:17:54.27\00:17:58.21
Testament, they're looking at
Elijah from the Old Testament,
00:17:58.21\00:18:01.61
and they're quoting that to
Christ, and they're saying, we
00:18:01.61\00:18:04.41
should call fire down from
heaven, and immediately, you
00:18:04.41\00:18:07.78
know, you can just sense
how God in humanity feels about
00:18:07.78\00:18:12.19
that, he basically recoils
from it and says, you don't
00:18:12.19\00:18:15.32
even know what manner of
spirit you're manifesting
00:18:15.32\00:18:17.43
right now, and the whole time
they're moving through these 3
00:18:17.43\00:18:20.46
and a half years of
instruction following Christ,
00:18:20.46\00:18:23.00
the whole time they're
thinking in their minds, who's
00:18:23.00\00:18:26.84
the greatest?
00:18:26.84\00:18:27.84
Who's the greatest?
00:18:27.84\00:18:28.97
Is it Jeffrey,
what's he doing right now?
00:18:28.97\00:18:31.87
>>TY: With hair like that,
he's gotta be the greatest.
00:18:31.87\00:18:35.81
>>JAMES: He's got this,
no, wait a minute, David, who's
00:18:35.81\00:18:39.71
the greatest, and like you
said, Ty, Jesus, in trying to
00:18:39.71\00:18:44.52
transition them, he tells them
the truth, he doesn't hold it
00:18:44.52\00:18:48.56
back, but he doesn't tell
them all the truth, because they
00:18:48.56\00:18:51.09
can't bear all
the truth right now.
00:18:51.09\00:18:53.26
Could Martin
Luther have born it?
00:18:53.26\00:18:55.63
Could, yeah, but here we
are now, here we are on the top
00:18:55.63\00:19:00.57
end of this, okay, we're
saying the top end, we don't
00:19:00.57\00:19:02.57
know, but we're on the other
end of this, we're hundreds of
00:19:02.57\00:19:04.57
years, 500 years post
reformation, and we are, in
00:19:04.57\00:19:09.38
our minds, are looking back
and going, whoa, how crude was
00:19:09.38\00:19:11.95
that?
00:19:11.95\00:19:13.18
>>DAVID: And here's a thought
I had when you just said that,
00:19:13.18\00:19:15.55
could Martin
Luther have born it?
00:19:15.55\00:19:17.55
Let's just imagine the thought
experiment where he could,
00:19:17.55\00:19:19.79
let's just imagine
that thought experiment.
00:19:19.79\00:19:21.79
so we import to him.
00:19:21.79\00:19:23.26
We download into his 1517
mind, all of the things that
00:19:23.26\00:19:27.83
we now know, not just talking
about us, but just things that
00:19:27.83\00:19:30.37
we have come to accumulatively
through time, he is not a
00:19:30.37\00:19:36.17
relevant voice.
00:19:36.17\00:19:38.34
He would, he could not,
there's no way you could take
00:19:38.34\00:19:42.01
what we're talking about now,
he would've been regarded as
00:19:42.01\00:19:45.05
an insane person.
00:19:45.05\00:19:46.55
It had to not be just a man
for the times, in some sense,
00:19:46.55\00:19:50.29
he had to be a man of the times.
00:19:50.29\00:19:52.29
>>TY: But here's a remarkable
thing, what he presented in
00:19:52.29\00:19:58.06
seed or in embryo, in
principle, was in fact, what
00:19:58.06\00:20:04.60
we enjoy now.
00:20:04.60\00:20:06.20
>>DAVID: Of
course, embryonically.
00:20:06.20\00:20:08.20
>>TY: Yeah, embryonically,
it's the same thing, he was
00:20:08.20\00:20:10.74
the one, he planted a seed
that grew into something that
00:20:10.74\00:20:13.88
he couldn't imagine.
00:20:13.88\00:20:14.98
>>JAMES: It's kinda like
this, when my son was born, we
00:20:14.98\00:20:18.98
through the process of
his early years, we bought
00:20:18.98\00:20:21.15
this little chair that you
would hook into the kitchen
00:20:21.15\00:20:25.35
counter.
00:20:25.35\00:20:26.55
You would just slide it in
and hook it in and we would sit
00:20:26.55\00:20:28.46
him in this chair.
00:20:28.46\00:20:29.46
It's kind of like a
portable baby chair.
00:20:29.46\00:20:31.46
We hook him into this chair.
00:20:31.46\00:20:32.66
And then we'd get a plate of
food and we'd put the food in
00:20:32.66\00:20:34.46
front of him and we would you
know, get him going on how to
00:20:34.46\00:20:38.17
eat, and he'd be
putting spoons into the bowl and
00:20:38.17\00:20:40.84
putting them in his mouth
and about, I'd say 80% of that
00:20:40.84\00:20:45.04
food ended up on the chair,
on the bib, on the floor, on the
00:20:45.04\00:20:49.14
counter, right?
00:20:49.14\00:20:50.71
And 20% of it was
in his mouth, okay.
00:20:50.71\00:20:53.25
>>TY: It's amazing he's alive.
00:20:53.25\00:20:54.28
[Laughter]
00:20:54.28\00:20:55.45
>>JAMES: Fast forward, fair
point, and when he's 2 years
00:20:55.45\00:20:59.82
old, when he's 3 years
old, we're like, yeah, look at
00:20:59.82\00:21:01.82
that, he's eating, look at
him go, whoa, you rock Martin
00:21:01.82\00:21:06.66
Luther, you rock, but
fast forward now 5 years, 500
00:21:06.66\00:21:11.13
years, 5 years.
00:21:11.13\00:21:12.13
So, now my son is 5 years old.
00:21:12.13\00:21:14.70
>>DAVID: That would not
be considered acceptable.
00:21:14.70\00:21:16.71
>>JAMES: That's not acceptable.
00:21:16.71\00:21:18.11
You can allow maybe 20% to
go out, but 80% of that food, it
00:21:18.11\00:21:23.91
needs to go in and
that's where we are, in the
00:21:23.91\00:21:27.22
reformation.
00:21:27.22\00:21:28.15
>>TY: That's a
very good illustration.
00:21:28.15\00:21:29.48
>>DAVID: It's funny, when you
started with that, I was like,
00:21:29.48\00:21:30.99
I was trying to imagine
this fast forward, where is he
00:21:30.99\00:21:32.95
going with this?
00:21:32.95\00:21:33.99
But that's a great illustration.
00:21:33.99\00:21:35.12
>>TY: Hey, guys, we need
to take a break, but this has
00:21:35.12\00:21:36.83
been really enlightening
so far, God is merciful.
00:21:36.83\00:21:40.56
been really enlightening
so far, God is merciful.
00:21:40.56\00:21:41.80
[Music]
00:21:41.86\00:21:54.54
>>This is the story of
Niyima, who took a bus to the
00:21:54.54\00:21:58.15
doctor and found a piece of
paper with words of hope about
00:21:58.15\00:22:02.15
Jesus, which was left by a
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00:22:02.15\00:22:07.19
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truck which drove in from Durban
00:22:07.19\00:22:11.73
where a ship was docked
that sailed from Seattle, loaded
00:22:11.73\00:22:15.70
with containers stacked
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00:22:15.70\00:22:19.70
trucked in from the
Light Bearers Publishing House,
00:22:19.70\00:22:23.10
where more than 600 million
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00:22:23.10\00:22:26.57
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00:23:04.35\00:23:09.82
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00:23:13.92\00:23:18.79
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00:24:03.51\00:24:07.81
[Music]
00:24:07.81\00:24:13.85
>>TY: So, we're moving
forward from the primary
00:24:13.85\00:24:19.19
reformers that launched the
entire process of coming out
00:24:19.19\00:24:24.09
of those dark ages, but
now let's name some of the key
00:24:24.09\00:24:28.36
figures, what we've
called radical reformers, late
00:24:28.36\00:24:32.97
reformers, who are some of
these individuals and what did
00:24:32.97\00:24:36.14
they contribute to the overall
picture and the advancement of
00:24:36.14\00:24:40.91
the reformation.
00:24:40.91\00:24:42.11
Who stands out to you guys?
00:24:42.11\00:24:43.75
>>DAVID: Well, can I just
say something and I'll give you
00:24:43.75\00:24:45.95
somebody that does stand
out to me, it's funny, if you
00:24:45.95\00:24:47.85
listen to the language we're
using, we use this language,
00:24:47.85\00:24:50.25
we're saying things like
coming out, moving forward,
00:24:50.25\00:24:52.69
progressing.
00:24:52.69\00:24:53.92
What I like about this
is it suggests an end point.
00:24:53.92\00:24:57.76
It suggests that we're going
somewhere, this isn't just a
00:24:57.76\00:24:59.53
meandering, oh, that and
then that and then that, it's
00:24:59.53\00:25:02.80
directional, it's
intentional, it's teleological.
00:25:02.80\00:25:05.77
We're going somewhere.
00:25:05.77\00:25:07.37
And the idea is, is that we're
going to a place, not just of
00:25:07.37\00:25:11.27
reformation, if you can sort
of imagine a graph where the
00:25:11.27\00:25:14.61
church is formed by Christ and
its apostolic purity, then in
00:25:14.61\00:25:18.38
the medieval period,
it becomes significantly
00:25:18.38\00:25:20.85
deformed, and then,
now we have a reformation.
00:25:20.85\00:25:23.25
Now, this reformation is on
a continuum, but that continuum
00:25:23.25\00:25:26.32
is directional, it's going
somewhere and it would not be
00:25:26.32\00:25:28.92
an overstatement to say
that where it's going is
00:25:28.92\00:25:30.93
restoration, to
apostolic, back to this.
00:25:30.93\00:25:35.93
It's not just, hey, we're
doing better than we were, you
00:25:35.93\00:25:38.33
know, better than down
here, a little better, a little
00:25:38.33\00:25:40.17
better, a little better,
and each of these progressive
00:25:40.17\00:25:42.80
reformers were the
magisterial, and then, later
00:25:42.80\00:25:45.44
the radical reformers were,
as it were, handing the baton of
00:25:45.44\00:25:48.54
progress on.
00:25:48.54\00:25:50.25
So, and then, and then,
and then, so that these people
00:25:50.25\00:25:53.21
could be not just of the
times, but for the times.
00:25:53.21\00:25:56.92
They could be speaking to
their time to their situation.
00:25:56.92\00:25:59.45
So, a name that I
love is Roger Williams.
00:25:59.45\00:26:04.79
>>TY: What a guy,
what a guy, what a guy.
00:26:04.79\00:26:06.66
>>DAVID: That was
almost like a bark.
00:26:06.66\00:26:08.70
>>JAMES: A growl.
00:26:08.70\00:26:10.27
>>JEFFERY: That was my dude.
00:26:10.27\00:26:11.53
No, no.
00:26:11.53\00:26:13.10
>>DAVID: I did my little thing.
00:26:13.10\00:26:14.30
>>JEFFERY: No, I wanna hear
what you're gonna say, 'cause
00:26:14.30\00:26:15.40
I'm gonna bring it back to me.
00:26:15.40\00:26:16.67
>>TY: you're like the two
chipmunks in that cartoon I
00:26:16.67\00:26:17.94
grew up watching, no, you
first, you first, you first.
00:26:17.94\00:26:20.34
>>JEFFERY: I was just
gonna say that you have, it's
00:26:20.34\00:26:23.48
interesting, you have the
church of Rome and then you
00:26:23.48\00:26:25.38
have a reformer, right, with
the message protesting against
00:26:25.38\00:26:30.82
abuses here, right?
00:26:30.82\00:26:32.62
But this reformer, he or
she is also incomplete, right?
00:26:32.62\00:26:40.20
>>TY: Well, it was a
he, it was Martin Luther.
00:26:40.20\00:26:42.13
>>JEFFERY: Right, and so then,
from here, God calls another
00:26:42.13\00:26:44.70
reformer, not even reaching
back here, but taking this a
00:26:44.70\00:26:48.94
step further, so when I think
of Roger Williams, that's how
00:26:48.94\00:26:52.41
I think of it 'cause you
have Luther and we mentioned the
00:26:52.41\00:26:55.98
anti-Baptists who were
persecuted by Protestants, and
00:26:55.98\00:27:00.12
then you have these very
anti-Baptists that now have to
00:27:00.12\00:27:02.58
flee, they now have to
be exiled as they're fleeing
00:27:02.58\00:27:07.12
persecution to other parts
of Europe and then, eventually,
00:27:07.12\00:27:09.96
they make it to
the Americas, right?
00:27:09.96\00:27:12.26
And it's interesting to me
reading early American history
00:27:12.26\00:27:15.03
that, when the puritans
arrived, Massachusetts Bay
00:27:15.03\00:27:18.97
Colony, these are heirs
of the Reformation, right?
00:27:18.97\00:27:23.30
And yet, they establish
religious intolerance on these
00:27:23.30\00:27:29.64
shores.
00:27:29.64\00:27:30.88
They legislate church
attendance and then, as is, as
00:27:30.88\00:27:34.32
has been true throughout
church history then, there is
00:27:34.32\00:27:36.65
voices that now rise to
the occasion to protest against
00:27:36.65\00:27:41.49
that and so, that's where
Roger Williams fits, 'cause he
00:27:41.49\00:27:45.13
gets kicked out, he gets
run out of town by Protestants
00:27:45.13\00:27:49.73
because of the issue
of religious intolerance.
00:27:49.73\00:27:54.57
Roger Williams says,
wait, what are we doing?
00:27:54.57\00:27:56.17
How do you legislate religion?
00:27:56.17\00:27:58.31
And he writes
his book, what is it?
00:27:58.31\00:28:00.48
The Bloody Tenance
of, ah, what was it?
00:28:00.48\00:28:05.75
Here, give me one second, The
Bloody Tenance of Persecution.
00:28:05.75\00:28:09.68
That he writes this
piece, 1630s or so, and in that
00:28:09.68\00:28:14.72
piece, he says that one of
the issues with legislating
00:28:14.72\00:28:18.43
religion is that you're
creating a generation of
00:28:18.43\00:28:20.26
hypocrites.
00:28:20.26\00:28:22.13
Because they don't believe
it in their hearts, you are
00:28:22.13\00:28:24.67
forcing them, externally,
to some confession of faith and
00:28:24.67\00:28:29.24
you have two problems here,
number one, you're enforcing
00:28:29.24\00:28:31.91
the gospel, number two,
you're creating hypocrites.
00:28:31.91\00:28:35.18
>>TY: You literally create
secret sin, an environment for
00:28:35.18\00:28:38.18
hidden darkness to be going on
while the surface looks right.
00:28:38.18\00:28:42.52
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, so you
have the, okay, what about this,
00:28:42.52\00:28:46.92
you have the Protestant
reformation being reformed.
00:28:46.92\00:28:50.96
>>DAVID: Yes, correct.
00:28:50.96\00:28:52.16
>>JEFFERY: Right?
00:28:52.16\00:28:53.29
The Protestant reformation
itself is being reformed and
00:28:53.29\00:28:57.27
that's the continuum,
it's on a continuum, it has to
00:28:57.27\00:29:00.50
be under constant reformation.
00:29:00.50\00:29:03.51
>>DAVID: So, Williams
becomes as a later reformer, and
00:29:03.51\00:29:07.41
himself, an anti-Baptist,
somebody who advocates
00:29:07.41\00:29:10.61
believer's baptism, I wanna
say a word about that in just
00:29:10.61\00:29:14.35
a second, he advocates
this radical notion, in fact,
00:29:14.35\00:29:16.82
correct me if I'm wrong
here, he may have been the first
00:29:16.82\00:29:20.72
person to coin the idea, the
phrase that we take absolutely
00:29:20.72\00:29:24.19
for granted today in the
modern world, the separation
00:29:24.19\00:29:26.16
of church and state, I think
he described what he called a
00:29:26.16\00:29:29.53
hedge between the two,
that each have their domains but
00:29:29.53\00:29:33.37
those domains
are not interlocking.
00:29:33.37\00:29:35.84
That's gonna become a huge
part later of the development
00:29:35.84\00:29:38.54
of what we take for
granted in the United States
00:29:38.54\00:29:40.41
Constitution.
00:29:40.41\00:29:41.61
Right, when we get together
and they set out the founding
00:29:41.61\00:29:44.68
fathers of this country
and they say, you know what, we
00:29:44.68\00:29:47.15
need to have a, the
Constitution, we need to grant
00:29:47.15\00:29:50.35
a series of freedoms, right,
Bill of Rights, what's the
00:29:50.35\00:29:53.99
first one?
00:29:53.99\00:29:55.19
Right?
00:29:55.19\00:29:57.03
What is it?
00:29:57.03\00:29:58.13
It's that Congress is
not gonna legislate religion.
00:29:58.13\00:30:01.53
So, that idea goes back.
00:30:01.53\00:30:03.80
You don't just
get there from Luther.
00:30:03.80\00:30:05.87
The magisterial reformers
and Calvin in Geneva would've
00:30:05.87\00:30:08.87
regarded that as absurd.
00:30:08.87\00:30:10.21
>>JEFFERY: Calvin in
Geneva, Michael Cerates.
00:30:10.21\00:30:14.61
>>DAVID: That's correct.
00:30:14.61\00:30:16.24
>>JEFFERY: The Spanish
physician, burnt at the stake
00:30:16.24\00:30:17.85
for his beliefs and
Calvin is signing off on it.
00:30:17.85\00:30:23.55
>>DAVID: You said they could
come out of Rome, but could
00:30:23.55\00:30:26.72
Rome come out of them?
00:30:26.72\00:30:28.12
And so, it wasn't that
they disagreed on the idea of
00:30:28.12\00:30:31.96
persecution or of the physical
enforcement of religious ideas
00:30:31.96\00:30:37.40
and Christianity, they just
said, hey, we're just gonna do
00:30:37.40\00:30:39.67
it on better terms.
00:30:39.67\00:30:41.30
You know, we're doing it on
scripture, you've done it on
00:30:41.30\00:30:42.80
tradition.
00:30:42.80\00:30:43.87
You move forward, move
forward, move forward, move
00:30:43.87\00:30:45.27
forward, and Williams says,
that whole system is broken.
00:30:45.27\00:30:47.91
>>TY: They were simply saying,
they were saying, you're,
00:30:47.91\00:30:49.91
yeah, they're enforcing
heresy, but we have the truth,
00:30:49.91\00:30:55.68
we're enforcing the truth.
00:30:55.68\00:30:57.22
>>DAVID: And what
Williams says is the idea of
00:30:57.22\00:30:59.32
enforcement is itself heresy.
00:30:59.32\00:31:01.72
Religious enforcement.
00:31:01.72\00:31:03.22
>>TY: And he's exiled for it.
00:31:03.22\00:31:05.43
>>DAVID: He's exiled for it
and there's this great story
00:31:05.43\00:31:07.76
that, you know, these
guys were heroes, man.
00:31:07.76\00:31:10.73
And as he's fleeing a
snowstorm comes and he hides
00:31:10.73\00:31:14.70
inside of a log.
00:31:14.70\00:31:17.41
He hides inside of a log, now,
this man, Roger Williams, was
00:31:17.41\00:31:19.41
fluent in some
7 native dialects.
00:31:19.41\00:31:23.21
Now, when we say
Native, I mean Native American.
00:31:23.21\00:31:26.28
He could speak and communicate
and do commerce with the
00:31:26.28\00:31:30.15
Native tribes, and when he
fled, he went and hid for a
00:31:30.15\00:31:33.15
time among the Native peoples
because they would receive
00:31:33.15\00:31:38.09
him.
00:31:38.09\00:31:39.26
In fact, he began to teach
them about his Savior in a way
00:31:39.26\00:31:42.06
that was really non-coercive
and beautiful and biblical and
00:31:42.06\00:31:46.47
it came to the point where
some of these Natives wanted
00:31:46.47\00:31:50.11
to be baptized, this is crazy.
00:31:50.11\00:31:51.27
Some of these Natives wanted
to be baptized and Williams
00:31:51.27\00:31:53.14
refused to baptize them.
00:31:53.14\00:31:55.74
Not because they were heathen,
not because they didn't have a
00:31:55.74\00:31:58.71
full understanding, he didn't
baptize them because he said,
00:31:58.71\00:32:01.65
you are more Christian
than many of the Christians into
00:32:01.65\00:32:05.25
what church would
I be baptizing you.
00:32:05.25\00:32:08.96
This is a guy who's on the
cutting edge not only of the
00:32:08.96\00:32:11.46
hedge between church
and state, but of misiology.
00:32:11.46\00:32:14.66
How do we bring
the message of Jesus?
00:32:14.66\00:32:17.07
Do we dominate a culture?
00:32:17.07\00:32:18.90
Do we destroy a culture?
00:32:18.90\00:32:20.10
Do we tear down a culture to
build up western civilization?
00:32:20.10\00:32:22.94
Or do we go in
and build bridges?
00:32:22.94\00:32:25.21
Integrate.
00:32:25.21\00:32:26.47
>>TY: Yeah, there
is no holy culture.
00:32:26.47\00:32:28.84
>>DAVID: Today, the buzzword
in evangelism and in pastoral
00:32:28.84\00:32:33.98
ministry, church ministry
is incarnational evangelism.
00:32:33.98\00:32:37.82
It's just what Jesus did.
00:32:37.82\00:32:38.95
He came down, he tabernacled
among us, he dwelt, that's
00:32:38.95\00:32:41.19
Williams.
00:32:41.19\00:32:42.39
You go, you dwell with them,
you understand, oh, that's why
00:32:42.39\00:32:44.59
they do that.
00:32:44.59\00:32:45.53
You glean from their culture.
00:32:45.53\00:32:47.76
You then, as Paul did in
Athens, you take the gospel
00:32:47.76\00:32:50.57
and you communicate it in a
way that makes cultural sense
00:32:50.57\00:32:54.47
and is relevant.
00:32:54.47\00:32:55.40
And it's logical.
00:32:55.40\00:32:57.54
>>TY: Yes, and then, Roger
Williams did one of the most
00:32:57.54\00:33:00.71
remarkable things in history.
00:33:00.71\00:33:03.58
He founded, he founded a
colony, a state, Rhode Island.
00:33:03.58\00:33:11.22
>>JEFFERY: Some people
say rogue, Rogue Island.
00:33:11.22\00:33:14.26
>>TY: Rogue Island, well, in
a sense, it was, but he founded
00:33:14.26\00:33:16.39
Rhode Island, and essentially,
he founded it on the premise
00:33:16.39\00:33:19.73
of religious freedom and he
said, he said Jews could come
00:33:19.73\00:33:23.87
here, which was significant
because Martin Luther and
00:33:23.87\00:33:27.00
others going way back were
persecuting Jews, he said, no,
00:33:27.00\00:33:31.14
you can come here and stay
Jews and you can set up shop
00:33:31.14\00:33:34.74
here and you can
do business and...
00:33:34.74\00:33:36.64
>>DAVID: Puritans,
Congregationalists, Baptists,
00:33:36.64\00:33:38.15
anti-Baptists, come.
00:33:38.15\00:33:39.38
>>TY: American Native peoples,
anybody can be here and we're
00:33:39.38\00:33:43.95
not going to enforce any
belief system, it was genuine
00:33:43.95\00:33:48.46
liberty of conscience
that this guy was amazing.
00:33:48.46\00:33:51.56
Roger Williams, he
was so ahead of his time.
00:33:51.56\00:33:55.36
>>JEFFERY: But that would've
been completely against the
00:33:55.36\00:33:57.00
Massachusetts Bay Colony and
the interesting thing is that
00:33:57.00\00:33:58.97
when they came over, it's,
we're gonna set up a city on a
00:33:58.97\00:34:01.94
hill, that's the famous
statement, John Winthrop.
00:34:01.94\00:34:03.71
A city on a hill, so that
the rest of the world could see
00:34:03.71\00:34:06.91
what this sort of theocracy
is gonna run like and but the
00:34:06.91\00:34:12.15
interesting, what I think is
interesting is, and this goes
00:34:12.15\00:34:15.22
very well with a key theme
we've been talking about this
00:34:15.22\00:34:18.92
entire series, and that is,
it all trickles down from your
00:34:18.92\00:34:23.63
picture of God.
00:34:23.63\00:34:25.53
Massachusetts Bay is thinking,
God has elected us to do this
00:34:25.53\00:34:31.87
thing.
00:34:31.87\00:34:32.93
Roger Williams says,
that's not, that thing is not
00:34:32.93\00:34:36.84
something God would do.
00:34:36.84\00:34:39.77
See what I mean?
00:34:39.77\00:34:41.01
So, the debates,
these discussions, these
00:34:41.01\00:34:46.08
disagreements and arguments
that are taking place are not
00:34:46.08\00:34:48.48
in a vacuum.
00:34:48.48\00:34:49.82
Massachusetts Bay, the old
guard is saying, this is what
00:34:49.82\00:34:53.32
God has called us to do.
00:34:53.32\00:34:55.09
And Roger Williams says,
that's impossible, because the
00:34:55.09\00:34:58.53
kind of God we're talking
about would not do that sort
00:34:58.53\00:35:02.40
of thing.
00:35:02.40\00:35:04.10
It all flows from your picture
of God, from how you perceive
00:35:04.10\00:35:10.57
God to be and for God to behave,
and from there, you deduce
00:35:10.57\00:35:14.01
your doctrinal content, and
that's why he knew, the gospel
00:35:14.01\00:35:18.01
can't be enforced because God
doesn't enforce belief, which
00:35:18.01\00:35:22.68
is pretty powerful.
00:35:22.68\00:35:24.99
So, the reformation is being
reformed throughout history.
00:35:24.99\00:35:30.23
>>DAVID: I love it, I even
loved it when you pounded on
00:35:30.23\00:35:32.13
the table, that
was hot, bam, bam, bam.
00:35:32.13\00:35:35.53
>>TY: That's the way it is,
but you're not gonna persecute
00:35:35.53\00:35:37.50
anyone.
00:35:37.50\00:35:38.33
Emphatic about that.
00:35:38.33\00:35:41.04
>>DAVID: What we see here and
this is not exactly the topic,
00:35:41.04\00:35:44.51
but I just think it's
fascinating what I'm gonna
00:35:44.51\00:35:46.61
make this point, I am of
the strong perspective, and I
00:35:46.61\00:35:50.25
might get some pushback
here, maybe I won't, that this
00:35:50.25\00:35:54.22
ongoing development, meeting
people, accommodating them
00:35:54.22\00:35:57.22
where they are and moving from
A to B, not A to Z, A to B, B
00:35:57.22\00:36:01.56
to C, C to, that sort of
incremental advancement, I
00:36:01.56\00:36:04.03
think that's what's
happening in the Old Testament.
00:36:04.03\00:36:06.23
God is
communicating with people.
00:36:06.23\00:36:09.86
>>TY: That's what I
said, that was my whole point.
00:36:09.86\00:36:12.50
>>DAVID: I guess I was asleep.
00:36:12.50\00:36:14.14
>>TY: That was, I spent like
3 minutes, I felt guilty for
00:36:14.14\00:36:17.74
going so long
with that explanation.
00:36:17.74\00:36:20.58
>>JEFFERY: Great
opportunity to reemphasize it.
00:36:20.58\00:36:23.41
>>TY: The children of
Israel coming out of Egyptian
00:36:23.41\00:36:25.25
bondage, 400 years of slavery.
00:36:25.25\00:36:27.38
>>DAVID: Got it, I was like,
man, I got this great idea.
00:36:27.38\00:36:31.05
[Laughter]
00:36:31.05\00:36:34.06
>>JEFFERY: But your point
is powerful, that's what's been
00:36:34.06\00:36:36.76
happening ever since chapter 3.
00:36:36.76\00:36:39.09
>>TY: I said,
this is the divine MO.
00:36:39.09\00:36:42.33
That's okay, that's okay.
00:36:42.33\00:36:45.10
>>JAMES: I look like Ty
used to look with a beard.
00:36:45.10\00:36:47.87
>>DAVID: Can I just borrow
your notes so I can just take
00:36:47.87\00:36:50.14
all your ideas
before you say them?
00:36:50.14\00:36:52.54
>>TY: Sure.
00:36:52.54\00:36:53.41
But it bears repeating.
00:36:53.41\00:36:56.08
It gives us hope that God is
working with us in our fallen
00:36:56.08\00:37:02.02
dysfunctional.
00:37:02.02\00:37:04.15
>>DAVID: Now, this is a crazy
idea, it's a, this is a little
00:37:04.15\00:37:06.92
bit avant guarde, it's on
the edge, but you know, you
00:37:06.92\00:37:10.09
mentioned that God blessed
David in his conquest, okay, I
00:37:10.09\00:37:14.50
do remember this.
00:37:14.50\00:37:15.13
[Laughter]
00:37:15.13\00:37:16.40
Thank you.
00:37:16.40\00:37:17.57
God blessed David, that's
right, but wouldn't allow him
00:37:17.57\00:37:21.34
to build the temple.
00:37:21.34\00:37:22.67
God's accommodation is, I
think, sometimes, messier than
00:37:22.67\00:37:26.27
we imagine.
00:37:26.27\00:37:28.11
I think it's an immersion
in the human situation and he
00:37:28.11\00:37:33.18
uses situations, circumstances
so much so that he's like,
00:37:33.18\00:37:37.55
look, you're gonna go into
Canaan, they don't go in, so
00:37:37.55\00:37:41.72
he's like, hm, how
are we gonna do this?
00:37:41.72\00:37:44.29
What options do I
have available to me?
00:37:44.29\00:37:46.39
He accommodates that
situation, it becomes a
00:37:46.39\00:37:47.96
military takeover.
00:37:47.96\00:37:49.46
Originally, it
could've been hornets, right?
00:37:49.46\00:37:52.03
He would drive them out.
00:37:52.03\00:37:53.20
So, God's accommodating
even sometimes, accommodating to
00:37:53.20\00:37:57.54
such a degree that it
is far from his ideal.
00:37:57.54\00:38:01.04
Jonah in a fish.
00:38:01.04\00:38:02.78
This is not, this is not
what God would normally do.
00:38:02.78\00:38:06.08
>>JEFFERY: But even worse,
sometimes, indistinguishable
00:38:06.08\00:38:08.32
whether or not God's the one
actively calling for this, or
00:38:08.32\00:38:11.72
accommodating his people doing
this, and that's what makes
00:38:11.72\00:38:13.99
the Old Testament messy.
00:38:13.99\00:38:15.99
>>DAVID: Well, there's a
brand new book that's just been
00:38:15.99\00:38:17.96
released, a fascinating book,
I haven't read it yet, but I
00:38:17.96\00:38:19.66
can't wait to read it, and
it's called The Crucifixion of
00:38:19.66\00:38:22.80
the Warrior God, and in
that book, Gregory Boyd, a
00:38:22.80\00:38:26.87
well-known evangelical
theologian, somebody whose
00:38:26.87\00:38:28.70
work I have a
lot of respect for.
00:38:28.70\00:38:30.04
I don't agree with everything
he says, and I'm not sure I
00:38:30.04\00:38:31.57
agree with this, 'cause I
haven't read it yet, but his
00:38:31.57\00:38:34.04
idea is basically that God
is moving people incrementally,
00:38:34.04\00:38:38.05
specifically on the track of
violence, that he starts them
00:38:38.05\00:38:41.75
here and come, come, come,
come, come, okay, this is, and
00:38:41.75\00:38:43.99
then you get to the cross, and
you says, that is not, God was
00:38:43.99\00:38:47.32
moving here, and he is not
an inflictor of violence, he in
00:38:47.32\00:38:53.03
the big scheme of things
is willing to have violence
00:38:53.03\00:38:56.40
inflicted on him.
00:38:56.40\00:38:57.60
Look at the cross.
00:38:57.60\00:38:58.40
So, the cross is
where it's going.
00:38:58.40\00:39:00.50
Which, that's true, and I
need to read his whole thesis,
00:39:00.50\00:39:02.77
that's a fascinating idea
that, 'cause let's be honest.
00:39:02.77\00:39:06.81
The reason a lot of people
turn away from God is they
00:39:06.81\00:39:09.08
read the stories
of the Old Testament.
00:39:09.08\00:39:10.78
Right?
00:39:10.78\00:39:12.05
Isn't that true?
00:39:12.05\00:39:13.28
They say, man, I can't wrestle
with that, they say, but this
00:39:13.28\00:39:14.72
is an accommodation.
00:39:14.72\00:39:16.12
>>TY: Here's a case in point,
David, here's a case in point.
00:39:16.12\00:39:17.82
As the reformation,
because we're talking about the
00:39:17.82\00:39:20.66
ongoing reformation,
unfolds, we have Luther, Calvin,
00:39:20.66\00:39:24.06
Zwingli, all of which
presided over their own coercive
00:39:24.06\00:39:27.83
enforcing of what they believe.
00:39:27.83\00:39:30.70
The anti-Baptists didn't just
believe in adult baptism and
00:39:30.70\00:39:35.77
baptism by conversion, they
also championed non-violence.
00:39:35.77\00:39:41.51
They were pacifists, they were
conscientious subsectors, and
00:39:41.51\00:39:45.08
we around this table,
we happen to be Seventh Day
00:39:45.08\00:39:49.05
Adventists, and we received
a heritage from that strain of
00:39:49.05\00:39:52.49
Protestantism of conscientious
objector position with regards
00:39:52.49\00:39:57.93
to war.
00:39:57.93\00:39:59.39
>>DAVID: And the movie
was just released, you know,
00:39:59.39\00:40:02.36
Hacksaw Ridge, which is this
celebration, this beautiful,
00:40:02.36\00:40:05.47
glory celebration of a man
that I met, did you guys meet
00:40:05.47\00:40:09.20
him as well?
00:40:09.20\00:40:10.24
>>TY: I never met him.
00:40:10.24\00:40:11.31
No.
00:40:11.31\00:40:12.17
Desmond Doss.
00:40:12.17\00:40:12.97
>>DAVID: What a story.
00:40:12.97\00:40:13.81
>>TY: Yeah.
00:40:13.81\00:40:14.78
So, I'm saying that
the Protestant reformation
00:40:14.78\00:40:16.01
continued on with people like
the anti-Baptists, people like
00:40:16.01\00:40:19.18
Roger Williams, people
like the Mennonites, who did see
00:40:19.18\00:40:23.45
that, at the core of the
gospel is non-coercive love.
00:40:23.45\00:40:29.69
That only by love is love
awakened and love is the agent
00:40:29.69\00:40:33.29
God uses to expel
sin from the heart.
00:40:33.29\00:40:35.43
And they deduced, they
reasoned forward from that
00:40:35.43\00:40:38.97
gospel premise, right?
00:40:38.97\00:40:41.40
And they landed, gradually, in
a position of non-violence and
00:40:41.40\00:40:48.38
their view of separation of
church and state grew to the
00:40:48.38\00:40:51.71
point where they said,
okay, this is America, this is
00:40:51.71\00:40:54.68
Germany, this is France,
this is Italy, my citizenship is
00:40:54.68\00:40:59.82
with a different kind of
kingdom that is not of this
00:40:59.82\00:41:02.99
world, yeah, I'm an American,
but I can push back on the
00:41:02.99\00:41:07.56
military exploits of my nation
and say, hey, I'll serve if
00:41:07.56\00:41:14.37
I'm, if I'm called upon to
serve, but I'm not going to
00:41:14.37\00:41:18.44
bear arms.
00:41:18.44\00:41:19.64
I'm not gonna shoot anybody
from Germany or from wherever
00:41:19.64\00:41:24.01
because my view is that
the kingdom of God transcends
00:41:24.01\00:41:27.85
national borders and so, there
could be a believer in Christ
00:41:27.85\00:41:32.95
right over there across that
national line that, if I have
00:41:32.95\00:41:37.36
a rifle, do you
see what I'm saying?
00:41:37.36\00:41:40.06
Or even a non-believer,
but you see, the point, the
00:41:40.06\00:41:44.53
reformation, the gospel has
in it the seeds of non-coercion,
00:41:44.53\00:41:50.14
non-violence, that's where the
thing goes until you have the
00:41:50.14\00:41:54.28
God of the
universe hanging on a cross.
00:41:54.28\00:41:59.41
And basically defying the
entire world system of solving
00:41:59.41\00:42:07.09
problems with strength and
power and coercion rather than
00:42:07.09\00:42:11.56
forgiveness and love and mercy.
00:42:11.56\00:42:13.76
It's on the level of
astounding when that finally
00:42:13.76\00:42:19.43
registers.
00:42:19.43\00:42:21.20
So, we're four minutes over.
00:42:21.20\00:42:24.24
>>DAVID: It's
alright, take a break.
00:42:24.24\00:42:25.84
>>TY: Let's take a break
and we'll come right back.
00:42:25.84\00:42:28.11
[Music]
00:42:28.11\00:42:38.29
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00:42:38.29\00:42:39.85
Announcer: The Light Bearers
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[Music]
00:43:31.74\00:43:38.05
>>TY: So, the
reformation continues.
00:43:38.05\00:43:39.58
It's an ongoing reformation.
00:43:39.58\00:43:42.22
It doesn't stop with Calvin,
it doesn't stop with Luther,
00:43:42.22\00:43:46.92
it doesn't stop with Tyndale,
it doesn't even stop with
00:43:46.92\00:43:50.39
we've gotten all the way
to Roger Williams, it doesn't
00:43:50.39\00:43:53.96
stop.
00:43:53.96\00:43:55.06
>>DAVID: It
hasn't stopped with us.
00:43:55.06\00:43:57.20
>>TY: It hasn't stopped with us.
00:43:57.20\00:43:58.80
>>DAVID: To say that it's
stopped is to say, we have
00:43:58.80\00:44:01.00
arrived at full
perfection of knowledge.
00:44:01.00\00:44:03.94
>>TY: Yeah, I can tell you
with clarity that I right this
00:44:03.94\00:44:06.78
moment disagree with
earlier versions of myself.
00:44:06.78\00:44:09.71
[Laughter]
00:44:09.71\00:44:10.85
So, the
reformation does continue.
00:44:10.85\00:44:15.38
Here's a question, what
are some practical areas of
00:44:15.38\00:44:21.26
application of reformation
principles to me, to us, to
00:44:21.26\00:44:26.63
you?
00:44:26.63\00:44:27.66
How does the reformation
continue for the individual
00:44:27.66\00:44:30.63
believer and for
the church as a whole?
00:44:30.63\00:44:32.73
How does it continue?
00:44:32.73\00:44:33.87
>>JEFFERY: Well, one analogy
that we can maybe get more
00:44:33.87\00:44:35.07
specific from, launch from,
one analogy, in my mind, it's
00:44:35.07\00:44:38.37
when I think of the reformers,
I think, this was a reaction
00:44:38.37\00:44:42.98
where they began to identify
things in their religious
00:44:42.98\00:44:46.75
world that were obstacles
in their way to get to God,
00:44:46.75\00:44:52.02
right?
00:44:52.02\00:44:53.19
We've named some of these
doctrines, we've named some of
00:44:53.19\00:44:54.79
these abuses, these were
things that were hindering
00:44:54.79\00:44:57.66
their ability, their
capacity to connect with God.
00:44:57.66\00:45:01.33
We think of Luther, remember,
we think of him with this
00:45:01.33\00:45:05.47
picture of a dark God, a
dark, he even grew to dislike,
00:45:05.47\00:45:08.67
because of certain things in
his framework of what God was
00:45:08.67\00:45:13.34
like.
00:45:13.34\00:45:14.51
So, I, as I'm reading the
reformation, I have now taken
00:45:14.51\00:45:17.58
that and looked inside,
some self, yeah, self inventory.
00:45:17.58\00:45:25.55
What are some things in my own
life, some ways that I relate
00:45:25.55\00:45:30.79
to God or that I think of God
that are actually obstacles in
00:45:30.79\00:45:36.50
my way from connecting with God?
00:45:36.50\00:45:39.73
Okay, now, I'm not getting
into any specific application.
00:45:39.73\00:45:42.77
>>TY: Why not?
00:45:42.77\00:45:44.11
>>DAVID: We both said
the same thing, why not?
00:45:44.11\00:45:48.41
>>JEFFERY: Not that I will
not, what I'm saying is that
00:45:48.41\00:45:49.71
in itself does not explain
any specific applications, but
00:45:49.71\00:45:53.78
that's a framework, I
think that we can use, that the
00:45:53.78\00:45:57.55
individual can use to apply
what was going on during the
00:45:57.55\00:46:01.46
reformation to my life now.
00:46:01.46\00:46:04.36
Right?
00:46:04.36\00:46:05.43
So, we look inside and
say, what are those things?
00:46:05.43\00:46:06.96
Another analogy would
be the 95 theses, right?
00:46:06.96\00:46:11.13
he nailed it to the church door.
00:46:11.13\00:46:14.77
Well, we need to be nailing
our own theses to our own
00:46:14.77\00:46:17.57
hearts, right?
00:46:17.57\00:46:18.77
Theses are things that we
are protesting against that are
00:46:18.77\00:46:20.54
getting in our way.
00:46:20.54\00:46:22.08
>>TY: Wow, that's powerful.
00:46:22.08\00:46:23.31
You're basically
saying protest self.
00:46:23.31\00:46:25.05
Not just protest others
outside of, you're saying
00:46:25.05\00:46:28.75
protest things in myself.
00:46:28.75\00:46:31.85
>>JEFFERY: We don't see things
and say, yeah, yeah, now let's
00:46:31.85\00:46:34.96
go out and get them, let's
go out and get all the wrongness
00:46:34.96\00:46:38.83
in religion today,
and we project outward.
00:46:38.83\00:46:41.60
No, stand in front of the
mirror and say, what needs
00:46:41.60\00:46:43.80
reformation?
00:46:43.80\00:46:45.17
>>JAMES: So, in other
words, do we exile people today
00:46:45.17\00:46:48.27
rather than us or persecute
people today or kill people
00:46:48.27\00:46:54.74
today?
00:46:54.74\00:46:55.58
Do we kill their influence.
00:46:55.58\00:46:56.88
If there's someone that
doesn't have the theology that
00:46:56.88\00:46:59.61
we have, if they don't see
things the way we see things,
00:46:59.61\00:47:02.88
are we gonna
kill their influence?
00:47:02.88\00:47:04.69
Are we gonna
drown their influence?
00:47:04.69\00:47:06.45
Are we gonna exile them
from our little group, from our
00:47:06.45\00:47:08.72
sphere, from our circle?
00:47:08.72\00:47:10.69
'Cause we talked about it
earlier, we talked about the
00:47:10.69\00:47:12.16
idea of dealing with issues
rather than the way we treat
00:47:12.16\00:47:15.66
people.
00:47:15.66\00:47:16.77
Jesus Christ came when he
walked on planet earth, he
00:47:16.77\00:47:22.10
dealt with
issues, not with people.
00:47:22.10\00:47:25.57
And so, he loved people.
00:47:25.57\00:47:26.94
He hung out with anyone and
everyone who was open to hang
00:47:26.94\00:47:31.05
out with him.
00:47:31.05\00:47:32.08
Whether they were
Saducees, Pharisees, you know,
00:47:32.08\00:47:35.75
Nichodemus at night,
the Samaritan woman, the
00:47:35.75\00:47:37.92
publicans, the sinners,
whoever it was, yeah, he would
00:47:37.92\00:47:40.02
connect with them, but he
would always stay faithful to
00:47:40.02\00:47:43.26
the truth, he would always
stay faithful to the character
00:47:43.26\00:47:47.40
of God, to the revelation, the
mission that God had given him
00:47:47.40\00:47:51.77
to reveal himself to the
world, and yet, he didn't
00:47:51.77\00:47:55.60
isolate people, he
didn't cut people off, he didn't
00:47:55.60\00:47:57.57
persecute people, he didn't
kill people in the sense that
00:47:57.57\00:48:01.98
we're talking about today,
and I think that is something
00:48:01.98\00:48:05.01
that's very like you said.
00:48:05.01\00:48:06.65
How do we nail this 95
theses to our own hearts?
00:48:06.65\00:48:10.25
When we look in the mirror,
how do we see the principles
00:48:10.25\00:48:12.25
of reformation
continuing on to our time?
00:48:12.25\00:48:16.22
'Cause we could be ever so
right about what we think and
00:48:16.22\00:48:20.96
what we believe, we could
be ever so, we could be, you
00:48:20.96\00:48:22.63
know, think about it
now, think about this.
00:48:22.63\00:48:24.90
The reformers were so cutting
edge that they got excited and
00:48:24.90\00:48:29.54
they were so excited and
enthusiastic, they thought,
00:48:29.54\00:48:31.94
this is gonna blow your
mind, wait a minute, you're not
00:48:31.94\00:48:35.48
seeing this?
00:48:35.48\00:48:36.38
What do you mean
you're not seeing this?
00:48:36.38\00:48:37.81
You're out of here, buddy.
00:48:37.81\00:48:40.35
You are dead, and you
can imagine, this is us.
00:48:40.35\00:48:44.55
So, do we cop the same
attitude, there's people on
00:48:44.55\00:48:48.26
the fringes that aren't
quite keeping up with us, that
00:48:48.26\00:48:51.03
aren't quite where we are,
all of you can think of someone
00:48:51.03\00:48:53.86
right now, just think
of somebody right now.
00:48:53.86\00:48:55.73
>>DAVID: And denominationally.
00:48:55.73\00:48:56.93
>>JAMES: Us, we right here,
sitting right here, just think
00:48:56.93\00:48:58.67
of somebody right now that
just isn't quite keeping up.
00:48:58.67\00:49:01.14
>>DAVID: I'm
thinking of Jeffrey.
00:49:01.14\00:49:03.07
[Laughter]
00:49:03.07\00:49:05.41
>>JAMES: I'm not giving
them any kind of, no, that's it.
00:49:05.41\00:49:09.68
>>DAVID: But did you hear
what I said, James, we do that
00:49:09.68\00:49:10.98
denominationally.
00:49:10.98\00:49:12.58
Right, let's be honest.
00:49:12.58\00:49:13.68
We say, you pick your
denominational affiliation and
00:49:13.68\00:49:17.92
they're gonna say, we've
basically got it figured out,
00:49:17.92\00:49:22.66
it's all fine and good.
00:49:22.66\00:49:23.79
Most people think they're
right about what they think
00:49:23.79\00:49:25.36
they're right about.
00:49:25.36\00:49:26.63
No problem there.
00:49:26.63\00:49:27.83
But then, to take, and I
like what you're saying there, a
00:49:27.83\00:49:30.83
judgmental or a, nothing wrong
with judging ideas, but when
00:49:30.83\00:49:35.17
we become judgmental of
people, I think that's what
00:49:35.17\00:49:37.14
you meant when you said
Jesus was dealing with ideas.
00:49:37.14\00:49:40.74
>>TY: Listen, our minutes
are numbered for this final
00:49:40.74\00:49:43.45
episode of the
reformation series.
00:49:43.45\00:49:46.28
The 95 theses that I wanna
nail to my heart is that if
00:49:46.28\00:49:51.52
the reformation was based
on the idea that I can't earn
00:49:51.52\00:49:54.52
God's favor because I already
have it, what I wanna apply to
00:49:54.52\00:49:58.86
myself is that I not relate to
people in such a way that they
00:49:58.86\00:50:03.26
have to earn my favor.
00:50:03.26\00:50:06.03
That they're out on the edges
and they gotta do something to
00:50:06.03\00:50:10.37
get my love, my acceptance,
my forgiveness, my grace, that's
00:50:10.37\00:50:14.18
what I wanna nail to my heart
and man, this has been a great
00:50:14.18\00:50:18.05
discussion, let's just briefly
state where we've come from.
00:50:18.05\00:50:21.58
It's a 13 part series, the
reformation, the reformation
00:50:21.58\00:50:25.99
series, we began with
Hebrew roots Christianity and
00:50:25.99\00:50:31.13
established that God's entire
system is based on covenantal
00:50:31.13\00:50:35.50
love and faithfulness.
00:50:35.50\00:50:37.27
We moved on and we saw that in
the next 2 parts that there is
00:50:37.27\00:50:42.24
a movement in history that was
prophesied of that would come
00:50:42.24\00:50:44.57
against that basic principle.
00:50:44.57\00:50:47.14
And then, the entire
reformation is built on the
00:50:47.14\00:50:49.88
premise that God is in
the process of restoring
00:50:49.88\00:50:53.82
covenantal faithfulness or
relational integrity between
00:50:53.82\00:50:56.85
himself and people and
between people and people.
00:50:56.85\00:50:59.39
And now, we've applied the
reformation to our own hearts
00:50:59.39\00:51:04.53
in this final discussion.
00:51:04.53\00:51:07.03
It's just been quite a journey
and we need to let people know
00:51:07.03\00:51:13.60
out there that we, we're
the ones sitting around this
00:51:13.60\00:51:17.14
table, but man, we just wanna
give a word of gratitude and
00:51:17.14\00:51:21.58
thanks to the crew behind
the scenes who are just making
00:51:21.58\00:51:25.48
this happen.
00:51:25.48\00:51:26.51
We're just sitting here
yapping, but there are all
00:51:26.51\00:51:29.42
these people that we have,
Jim Huenergardt, who is our
00:51:29.42\00:51:33.29
producer for this series
and the brains behind the
00:51:33.29\00:51:36.62
technical operation of things.
00:51:36.62\00:51:38.39
We've got Stephan Vidano
behind the scenes, who is just
00:51:38.39\00:51:40.93
an artist extraordinaire when
it comes to video production,
00:51:40.93\00:51:45.47
that is working with Jim.
00:51:45.47\00:51:47.30
We've got on the
cameras Brandon and we've got on
00:51:47.30\00:51:49.64
audio, we've got Richard,
other cameras, we've got Josh
00:51:49.64\00:51:53.78
and Blake and Brian and wow,
thank you to all of these guys
00:51:53.78\00:51:59.95
who are able to
make this happen.
00:51:59.95\00:52:02.95
We are super grateful for the
part that you're playing even
00:52:02.95\00:52:05.85
though you're behind the
scenes, and then, finally, we
00:52:05.85\00:52:08.39
just wanna say thank you
to all the Table Talkers out
00:52:08.39\00:52:11.16
there who are viewing,
who are sitting in with us, on
00:52:11.16\00:52:16.03
whatever television network
you happen to be watching this
00:52:16.03\00:52:19.17
on.
00:52:19.17\00:52:20.37
Thank you for joining us and
thank you for setting up your
00:52:20.37\00:52:23.77
own environment in which Jesus
can be glorified in friendly
00:52:23.77\00:52:29.54
conversation around tables
and the reformation can continue
00:52:29.54\00:52:34.62
to its final and ultimate
end in which God is glorified
00:52:34.62\00:52:38.39
above all.
00:52:38.39\00:52:39.45
>>JAMES: Yeah, thank you, Jesus.
00:52:39.45\00:52:40.62
>>DAVID: Hallelujah.
00:52:40.62\00:52:42.16
[Music]
00:52:42.16\00:52:49.63
?usic]
00:52:52.70\00:52:52.73