Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000512A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: I think it would be accurate to say that the 00:23 Protestant reformation is one of the most significant 00:29 revolutions in human history. 00:32 There's no doubt that the papal Roman empire is the 00:37 longest lived empire in human history, especially if you 00:43 take in the pagan phase, if you just say Rome. 00:48 Wow, this is a long swath of history where there's a lot, 00:52 yeah, a lot of influence being exerted and suddenly, the 01:00 pendulum begins to swing the other direction. 01:03 Suddenly, people are waking up and saying there's something 01:06 deeply wrong with the way God is being portrayed, the way 01:12 human beings are being treated, the way society 01:15 operates, the way the economy operates, everything was 01:22 terribly, terribly wrong in that world that Rome, in its 01:27 pagan, and then, in it's papal phase dominated. 01:30 And then, some courageous individuals rose up and said 01:35 enough, we're not doing this anymore, and it wasn't merely 01:40 a rebellion in a political sense, it was a response in a 01:45 theological sense. 01:47 It was people who were rising up and saying, listen, a 01:51 different picture of God would produce a different picture of 01:55 humanity, which would shape all of humanity's history 02:01 henceforth in a whole new direction. 02:04 That's the Protestant reformation. 02:06 It's a revolution. 02:08 It's a complete recalibrating of human understanding of God 02:14 and of self and of the church and society in general, not 02:20 just in western Europe, but we live in a world right now that 02:25 was shaped by the ideas that came out of the Protestant 02:28 reformation, but that monolithic system wasn't going 02:34 to tolerate. 02:35 They weren't gonna take that lying down, and so, we have in 02:38 history something that is called the counter 02:41 reformation, the reformation and then we have the counter 02:46 reformation, that is the response to what Luther and 02:50 Zwingli and Calvin and Arminius. 02:55 >>DAVID: Well, not Arminius. 02:56 >>TY: Yeah, counter reformation. 02:58 >>DAVID: I was thinking specifically the council of 03:00 Trent, but true enough, the counter reformation. 03:02 >>TY: So, there's this thing called the counter 03:05 reformation. 03:06 Now, the counter reformation, we see it taking place on an 03:11 individual level, I mean, we have Tetzel responding to 03:15 Luther, we have the pope responding to Luther, but this 03:19 counter reformation thing takes on an organized and well 03:25 articulated form, first in what is called the council of 03:29 Trent. 03:31 >>JEFFERY: So, in that sense, the reformation is significant 03:33 not only for what it itself directly sought to change, but 03:37 for how it provoked reactions. 03:39 It set in motion reactions that had not only 03:43 Ecclesiastical significance, but also in every other 03:46 aspect, political, social. 03:47 >>TY: And let's be clear about something, the whole system 03:51 was basically a monetizing of religion, so there's no way, 03:58 there's no way that the powers that be are going to allow 04:04 this thing to go forward because their reasoning 04:07 forward, and they're seeing, hey, if these ideas take hold, 04:11 if people begin to think freely, if they begin to think 04:14 that they can determine, in their own conscience what they 04:19 believe and respond to God apart from the monetized 04:22 system, well, that spells the demise of the entire thing 04:27 that we've been building up for centuries. 04:30 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, the powers that be have a horse in the 04:32 race. 04:33 >>DAVID: And we should say, and I know you would agree 04:35 with this, Ty, that because the church, we're talking 04:41 about the Roman church through the medieval period, was the 04:43 church. 04:45 I mean, you do have eastern orthodoxy that sort of emerges 04:47 in the 11th century, but for our purposes here, western 04:49 Rome, we're talking about the church, there would've been 04:53 loads, thousands, millions of people that were sincere in 04:57 that system, some even in leadership. 04:59 Some that are, hey, Luther himself was a case in point. 05:03 Luther was preceded by Haas and Tindale and others who 05:07 were themselves, would've indentified as Catholic. 05:09 >>JEFFERY: they weren't trying to start a new thing, they 05:12 were sincerely trying to reform, 'cause they believed 05:16 the system, they just wanted to reform it. 05:18 >>DAVID: I just wanna be careful because it could be 05:20 easy for us, and I know you weren't saying this, Ty, but 05:22 it could be easy for us to just homogenize them but there 05:26 were people, even them, many of the people that would 05:28 become Protestant sympathizers were themselves formerly 05:33 Catholics. 05:34 These are sincere people. 05:35 And then, there would've been some in fairness that would've 05:37 been unsympathetic to the Protestant cause who would've 05:40 remained in Rome who, it was just too much, too much 05:43 upheaval, too much talking about people in the lower 05:45 tiers. 05:46 Now, the people in the upper tiers, they are increasing, as 05:49 the objections and the attacks, that's what they 05:54 were, against the system are being raised, there is either, 05:58 I suppose, at some level, and God only knows this, a 06:00 softening and a hardening. 06:02 Like a yes, yes, sola scriptura, or, a doubling down 06:07 on the institutionalism, no, this is, and that's what's 06:11 happening at the council of Trent. 06:13 So, when the council of Trent is finally convened and the 06:15 date is late, think about it, 1545. 06:19 Luther's nailing those theses in 1517, the protest to the 06:23 princes is 1529? 06:25 When's that? 06:26 1529, so you do the math, 1545, the council of Trent 06:30 convenes just 2-3 months before Luther dies in 1546, 06:35 February. 06:36 So, it was a fairly late response considering the 06:40 upheaval. 06:41 >>TY: The system felt pretty secure. 06:43 The system felt, the people in the upper echelons of this 06:47 power structure, at fist just thought that Luther was a 06:52 mosquito on a wall to be swatted. 06:54 >>DAVID: That's back in 1517, that's back in 1518, by the 06:58 time we get to 1545, the divide, the schism between the 07:01 Protestants and the Roman church, there is no hope of 07:04 reconciliation, they're not sitting down like this at a 07:07 table. 07:08 So, what's happening at the council of Trent is, they are 07:11 clarifying what it is that we believe, because all of these 07:15 attacks coming in, I'm talking about the church of Rome, the 07:17 leadership in the church of Rome, there was 20, I don't 07:21 know, 200, when the council of Trent started, it was smaller, 07:24 there were 3 sessions that met over 18 years. 07:26 In the first session, I don't remember exactly, maybe 200 07:29 bishops were there. 07:30 By the time you got to the end, the council had grown 07:33 significantly, when you get down to sort of 1460, 1461, 07:37 62, 63, 15, excuse me, it's a much larger council, and what 07:41 they're doing is, is they're saying, okay, number one, how 07:45 do we solve the Protestant problem? 07:47 How do we solve it? 07:48 Because the idea of reconciliation, hey, you sit 07:50 down at the table, I sit down at the table, we meet in the 07:52 middle, that ship has sailed, that ship sailed when Luther 07:56 at the diet at Vern says, no. 07:58 That's number one, number two, they need to clarify their own 08:02 doctrinal positions in response to what the 08:05 Protestants have been saying on the solas that we've been 08:07 talking about. 08:08 And number 3, they met to try and address the problems 08:13 within the institution, particularly with regards to 08:17 clerical abuse and corruption. 08:20 >>JEFFERY: So, it's interesting, can you stop 08:22 right there for a second? 08:23 That it even provided the occasion for the church of 08:28 Rome to acknowledge some of its own issues, and even, 08:32 these are issues that even sympathizers of Rome 08:35 themselves had recognized before, but now, there was an 08:41 opportunity to actually deal with it, so even in the 08:44 counter reformation, part of the counter, part of the 08:48 response, part of the reaction was to correct some of the 08:54 abuses, that' would've been one of the ways they could've 08:57 pushed back against the reformers. 08:58 >>JAMES: That goes all the way back to Haas because that was 09:00 the same thing with Haas, you had people who were upset with 09:02 Haas, but you also had people who were upset with the 09:03 church. 09:04 >>DAVID: So on that, it's true, what you're saying is 09:08 true, there were people, going back to my earlier point, 09:11 there were people within the church who sincerely believed, 09:14 this is the church, the successor of Peter, we're the 09:16 church, they regarded the Protestants as heretics, okay, 09:19 I get that, but here's the problem, at the very upper 09:24 echelon, especially at the very top, the pope, part of 09:28 the reason the council doesn't convene until 1545 is that two 09:32 popes refused to meet, I don't remember their exact names, 09:35 when it finally does convene, I don't remember that either, 09:39 but there were two popes who said, no, we're not doing it, 09:41 we're not meeting. 09:42 >>TY: And the reason they said we're not meeting was 09:44 essentially because they wanted to occupy a position of 09:48 authority that doesn't come down to even the level of 09:52 discussion, we're not gonna talk to you about this. 09:54 >>DAVID: There was a pope and then there was another one, it 09:57 was in succession. 09:58 And then, the third pope finally was forced, they said, 10:01 we have to do this. 10:02 >>TY: They essentially said, we're not talking to you 10:04 because we occupy the position of power and to even have a 10:09 discussion with you is to come down somewhat. 10:13 >>DAVID: So you have to go back even before the 10:16 Protestant reformation, one of the things that was sort of 10:20 happening in the Roman church prior to 1517, there was a 10:23 movement called conciliarism and the root word there is 10:27 council, and there were movements within the church to 10:31 say, hey, we need to desensualize the power a 10:33 little bit here, we need, the pope needs to have, he's still 10:35 the pope, he's still the successor of Peter, but 10:38 councils need, there needs to be give and take. 10:41 Well, you can imagine, the pope is gonna be reluctant to 10:44 convene a council that become the thing that will take away 10:48 some of his authority. 10:49 So, you're correct. 10:50 There was a reluctance, so finally, when the Protestant 10:52 thing is just getting out of hand, it's like a wildfire, 10:54 one pope says, no, we're not meeting, the second pope sys, 10:57 no, I'm not gonna do that, because he's afraid of this 11:01 consiliarist revival and finally, they had to do it, 11:03 they just had to do it, and so, they sit down. 11:05 >>TY: They had to do it because the whole thing is 11:07 imploding. 11:08 >>JAMES: The outside problems are greater than the inside 11:10 issues to be concerned with. 11:11 >>DAVID: You can't not address this. 11:13 So, when they sit down, they're gonna solve the 11:15 Protestant problem, they're gonna clarify their own 11:17 doctrine, in response to the Protestant critiques and 11:19 they're gonna try to root out, as Jeffrey was mentioning, 11:21 some of this clerical abuse. 11:23 >>TY: And in clarifying their own doctrines, no change is 11:26 going to be made. 11:27 >>JEFFERY: I was waiting for somebody to say that, because 11:30 I was going to ask, so they're basically just reiterating 11:35 what the church has always taught. 11:37 >>DAVID: That's true, but with a greater degree of 11:39 theological precision. 11:40 >>TY: They have to talk because they have to have 11:43 reasons. 11:44 You have to have reasons. 11:45 >>DAVID: Of course, and there is no concession. 11:48 >>JEFFERY: Here's where I'm going with this. 11:51 So, to a certain degree, they must have believed that there 11:57 was a significant sector in society that was still, what's 12:02 the word? 12:03 Reachable with the doctrine of Rome. 12:08 So, they must've thought, they must've thought, what the 12:13 church is saying is still compelling, we just need to 12:15 reiterate it with greater force. 12:18 >>TY: It's remarkable, isn't it, that for the first time, 12:22 these powerful individuals, the church of Rome, they're 12:27 not moving, they aren't moving. 12:30 They're gonna reaffirm Catholic doctrine, but Luther, 12:34 Zwingli, the reformers have essentially pushed them to the 12:37 point where they have to talk to the people. 12:41 Before that, we're not talking to the people, we're not 12:44 talking to the people, the bible's in Latin, the priest 12:46 does mass, facing away from the congregation, you 12:50 can't sing, there's no communication, this is not two 12:54 way. 12:55 And suddenly, at least the reformers have now pushed the 12:59 power structure to say, you know what? 13:01 We need to have reasons that we give people, so let's 13:04 explain because now they're having to honor conscience. 13:08 >>JEFFERY: To a certain degree, not completely, I 13:10 understand that not even remotely completely, but to a 13:12 certain degree, they've now had to acknowledge the 13:15 priesthood of all believers, in a sense. 13:17 >>TY: That's what I'm saying, yeah. 13:20 >>JEFFERY: That's interesting. 13:21 >>DAVID: So, the posture that they take was not a 13:24 reconciliatory posture, and we know that because the council 13:28 would release dozens and dozens of statements, I mean, 13:32 volumes of material that the pronouncements, the official 13:38 dogmatic pronouncements were framed in the, if anyone says, 13:44 a, b, c, or d, let them be anathema, or cursed. 13:49 It didn't mean that they were cut off unilaterally 13:52 eternally, but under censorship from the church, and 13:55 you need to change, you need to modify your position to 13:57 come back. 13:58 So, for example, when we started with our solas, we 14:01 started with which one? 14:02 Sola scriptura, right? 14:03 So, what do you think was the very first thing that the 14:08 council of Trent addresses? 14:10 They address the question of sola scriptura. 14:12 So, let me just read you one of the pronouncements on that 14:15 topic from the council of Trent. 14:17 >>JAMES: All ears. 14:18 >>DAVID: No one should presume to interpret holy scripture, 14:22 contrary to that sense which the holy mother church has 14:26 held and holds, whose right it is to judge concerning the 14:31 true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures or 14:35 contrary to the unanimous consensus of the fathers. 14:39 >>TY: They're essentially saying, do not think for 14:43 yourself within the realm of scripture. 14:45 We will tell you what it means and you're not qualified, 14:51 you're not even qualified to deal with God on that level. 14:54 >>DAVID: And, in fairness to them, they wouldn't have said, 14:57 we will tell you, their real point was, tradition tells us 15:00 all. 15:01 >>JEFFERY: The collective tradition of the church. 15:03 >>TY: But they're creating tradition. 15:05 >>DAVID: The idea is, is that you have, you know, at this 15:10 point, 15 centuries, now, that's not true, we know that, 15:13 but 15 centuries of momentum of developmental, doctrinal 15:19 development and traditional development to say, hey, we 15:21 can't just turn on a dime. 15:22 This is the Titanic. 15:24 So, we're gonna clarify that if you wanna, yeah, if you 15:27 wanna read scripture, you can read it devotionally, at this 15:30 point, actually, they don't say that, but what they are 15:33 saying is, if it comes to interpretation, you are not 15:36 allowed, you don't have the skills, the resources, 15:40 whatever. 15:41 Authority, that's the word. 15:42 >>TY: It's an authority issue. 15:43 >>DAVID: To interpret scripture for yourself. 15:47 What the Protestants were saying, you know, the plowmen, 15:50 the classing plowman quote from Tindale, you know. 15:52 >>TY: I will make a plowboy know more about the holy 15:56 scriptures than you, that is you in that sense is the 15:59 bishops of Rome. 16:00 >>DAVID: So, yeah, you are welcome to read scripture, if 16:04 you have it available to you, you are not allowed to 16:06 interpret scripture different form the sense, notice that 16:10 word came up twice, the sense that the church has held and 16:13 holds. 16:15 Okay, so that's taking a shot at sola scriptura. 16:19 It's basically saying scripture, yes, yes to 16:22 scripture, but scripture as interpreted by the church. 16:27 >>JEFFREY: Yeah exactly 16:28 >>DAVID: Right. 16:30 Somebody's phone is ringing. 16:32 >>TY: Sorry. 16:32 >>DAVID: Turn your phone off, man. 16:34 Okay, so that you've gotta take a shot at sola scriptura 16:37 because that is the ediphus on which the Protestant 16:40 reformation is proceeding, every sola proceeds from that 16:44 basic foundation. 16:46 >>JEFFERY: Because, the reformers would've been, yeah, 16:48 tradition, but what tradition? 16:50 We're looking at the apostolic tradition versus the early 16:52 fathers and medieval theologians and so forth, so, 16:57 there's just two opposing battles for two opposing 17:02 traditions, essentially, right? 17:04 >>DAVID: There were a number of issues that they addressed 17:08 specifically, and I suppose we'll come back to those after 17:10 the break, but the point here to get sort of in your mind 17:15 is, that when it came time for them to formally address, and 17:18 I like your point about how this was kind of a concession, 17:20 hey, we gotta speak to the mob a bit. 17:24 There was not a reconciliatory spirit, it was a hardening and 17:29 a doubling down and a reaffirmation in the strongest 17:33 possible language of what we have historically believed. 17:36 So, Luther's hope, his initial hope back in 1517 of a 17:39 reformation, that dream has died. 17:44 Right, no, that's not happening, that is not gonna 17:48 happen. 17:50 >>TY: We have to take a break, but this is just fascinating 17:52 history that impacts the world that we live in today, so when 17:58 we come back, we'll just keep moving through what the 18:02 counter reformation entailed. 18:05 [Music] 18:15 >>The bible is a big book. 18:17 It's composed of 66 smaller books, written by more than 40 18:22 different authors. 18:23 It's easy to get bogged down in all the genealogies, 18:27 ancient history and intersecting characters with 18:30 unpronounceable names. 18:32 And yet, the bible is full of rich and powerful truths that 18:36 all of us need to understand. 18:39 Wouldn't you love to have an experienced tour guide take 18:43 you on a step-by-step journey through some of the most vital 18:46 and beautiful truths contained in the bible? 18:49 Well, now, it's here. 18:51 It's called Truth Link. 18:53 Truth Link is a groundbreaking new series of easy to 18:57 understand bible study guides that thousands of people 19:01 around the world are raving about. 19:04 Why all the excitement? 19:06 Because Truth Link systematically unfolds 27 life 19:11 transforming biblical topics, but not as a list of dry 19:16 theological facts. 19:18 Rather, Truth Link takes you on an engaging, biblical 19:22 expedition, demonstrating how every truth of scripture 19:27 reveals some facet of God's beautiful character. 19:32 Truth Link isn't just information, it's a spiritual 19:35 journey that will radically impact your life. 19:39 We would really love for you to have these bible study 19:42 guides because we know they will be a blessing to you. 19:47 You can get them by visiting truthlink.org or by calling 19:52 541-988-3333. 19:59 [Music] 20:05 >>TY: So, right now, we're exploring the counter 20:08 reformation. 20:09 Those who are sitting in on this conversation with us out 20:10 there in television land, just wanna just encourage them to 20:17 just lean in, because this discussion we're considering 20:23 some complex historical events that are unfolding and what 20:28 we've said so far is basically that we have this seismic 20:33 shift of understanding, regarding God and human 20:38 beings' relation to God, called the Protestant 20:43 reformation. 20:44 These Protestant reformers are bucking the most powerful 20:47 system the world has ever known. 20:49 As individuals, by the way, which, there's a courage here 20:52 that is astounding, and then, that powerful system is 20:58 responding with counter claims and saying, no, no, no. 21:04 >>JEFFERY: But those counter claims are the same claims 21:07 from the beginning. 21:08 >>TY: That's right, they're not altering anything, they're 21:11 just saying, hey, we were right, we still are, the 21:14 Protestant reformation is completely illegitimate, stop, 21:18 cease and desist immediately or you will suffer the 21:22 repercussions of the church coming upon you with force. 21:29 It's a pretty brutal response. 21:32 >>JAMES: And one of the factors here is by the time 21:35 the council convenes and finishes in the 18 years, a 21:38 good 19-20 of these prominent reformers are dead. 21:44 So, you've got a church that's saying, hey, we have been for 21:46 hundreds of years, we will continue for hundreds of 21:49 years, this little, you know, mosquito, this little fly in 21:53 the air, we're just gonna catch it, we're gonna squish 21:56 it, and we're gonna toss it out. 21:58 These guys are past, they're not gonna survive, they 22:01 themselves weren't even thinking about developing some 22:05 kind of ongoing structural movement, if you will, and so 22:09 I think that part of this is the timing is in relation to the 22:13 fact that they're making a statement now. 22:15 Because I remember, personally, when I made this 22:20 transition, it was not just a religious transition that I 22:25 had to think about, I think a lot of people in the world 22:27 today think this way, in a sense, it was a cultural 22:30 transition. 22:31 My family is Catholic from an Irish perspective, and there's 22:37 the Italian perspective, there's the South American 22:41 perspective. 22:43 If you understand what I'm saying and that is, it's not 22:44 just what you believe, it's the cultural connection. 22:50 >>TY: I don't necessarily believe Catholicism, I may or 22:52 may not, I am a Catholic. 22:54 >>JAMES: I'm a Catholic, I can't even imagine being a 22:57 Protestant because that aligns me with a location, with a 23:02 culture that's totally different than the culture I 23:04 was raised in. 23:05 And there's a discomfort with that. 23:07 So, the church now can assert itself in a powerful way that 23:13 threatens people not just theologically, but threatens 23:17 them in who you are, yes, and then, it just reaffirms and it 23:20 says, yes, these men, that are now, most of them are now 23:24 dead, had said a few things and of course, it's had its 23:29 impact, but let's just clarify. 23:32 This is actually, and you know, if you're gonna believe 23:34 those things, you're gonna kind of be like them. 23:37 You know, they passed format he scene and you're gonna be 23:38 like them. 23:40 >>JEFFERY: That sheds light on your whole emphasis on the 23:41 cultural dynamic, sheds light on why it was such a threat, 23:48 banishment, right, exile, to say if you're gonna keep 23:52 believing these things, you know, to us, it's like, okay, 23:57 I'll just get a ticket to Seattle, Washington, you know, 24:00 Orbitz, peace out, I'm going to Seattle, but that would've 24:04 been like. 24:05 >>JAMES: Check this out, go back to the apostolic age, the 24:08 same thing happened. 24:10 >>TY: In the transition from Judaism to, yeah. 24:12 >>JAMES: The same thing happened. 24:14 That's why you had those deacons appointed, that's why 24:16 you had all the people that needed to be taken care of. 24:18 Now, fast forward, you're talking about our world right 24:22 now, well, fast forward to what God has predicted our 24:25 world's gonna look like in Revelation chapter 13. 24:27 If you don't go along with the worship that is imposed upon 24:31 the world, guess what, you're not gonna be, you're out of 24:34 the system. 24:36 Revelation 18 talks about the fall of the system and it's an 24:39 economic system. 24:40 It's a culture, it's a system that people, yes, absolutely, 24:46 so this is big. 24:47 >>DAVID: One of the, what were you gonna say? 24:49 >>TY: I was just gonna say that even though many of their 24:52 farmers, by the time council of Trent is taking place, and 24:55 actually it's an 18 year event, so reformers were dying 24:58 off, you said like 18, 19, okay, they're dying off, but 25:02 the thing I wanted to say is, the church of Romans 25:06 underestimating the power of the ideas. 25:09 It's the ideas, it's the ideas that have set in motion a 25:14 revolution, you can't put the toothpaste back inside of the 25:19 tube. 25:21 It's impossible. 25:22 >>JAMES: And what you're saying is really cool because 25:24 this movement is not based on big name people. 25:26 >>TY: It's not. 25:27 >>JAMES: No, the people are just out of the, it's the 25:31 principle. 25:32 >>DAVID: That was a faulty assumption early on, so, when 25:35 Pope Leo the Tenth hears about Luther and his theses of 25:39 protest or his theses of reform, he calls it a monkish 25:43 squabble, he gives it very little attention. 25:45 Clearly, he's saying, ugh, who has, I'm the pope, who had 25:49 time to deal with some little monk in some little city in 25:53 you know, northern Germany? 25:54 >>JEFFERY: But eventually, they're like, burn their 25:56 books, they're like, wait a second, there's something more 26:01 to this than just charismatic's. 26:04 >>TY: And you know what the something more to it was, 26:05 Jeffrey? 26:06 The money, they're just doing the math back in Rome, and 26:11 they've got a lot of flow, and suddenly, Luther begins to 26:15 preach, and the flow's not there anymore. 26:19 Oh, we better do something here because the money is not 26:22 coming in the way it used to. 26:24 >>DAVID: So, one of the things we've talked about in Table 26:27 Talk and it's really quite relevant to the council of 26:30 Trent is the notion of what is the role of the church? 26:34 And the Protestant answer to that would be, maybe not 26:38 initially, but came to be, now is, the church's primary role 26:43 is proclamational and we're a community. 26:48 We're here, we have something to say, we have a place to 26:50 belong. 26:52 Okay, that is a very different conception of church than in 26:55 the Roman Catholic theological construct where the church 26:59 dispenses sacraments, 7 sacraments. 27:03 Now, here's a really, just a cool thought experiment to 27:05 think about. 27:06 Let's say you are a Baptist, or in our case, a seventh day 27:09 Adventist, or a Presbyterian, whatever. 27:12 Let's say you're a Protestant, assemblies of God. 27:15 Imagine in any of those faith communities, every person that 27:18 you call a pastor, right, so I'm a pastor, all of us here, 27:22 you're a pastor, pastor, pastor, you're not a pastor 27:25 right now. 27:27 If, take the Baptist church, if every single pastor 27:31 disappears, just disappears from the face of the earth, 27:35 what happens to the Baptist church? 27:37 Question, does the Baptist church cease to exist? 27:40 >>TY: Nope. 27:41 >>DAVID: Does the assemblies of God church cease to exist? 27:42 Does the seventh day Adventist church cease to exist? 27:44 No. 27:45 >>TY: May even thrive. 27:46 [Laughter] 27:47 Once we're out of the way. 27:49 >>DAVID: But now, switch that to Catholicism, if every 27:53 priest, every cardinal and the pope ceases to exist, what 27:58 happens? 28:00 Can the church be sustained in the absence of its leadership? 28:02 The answer is no. 28:03 And the reason is that the primary role is not 28:06 proclamational, it's mediatoral. 28:08 It's mediation. 28:10 We are in between God and so, the sacraments, and there were 28:13 7 of the sacraments, right? 28:15 So, you have baptism, Eucharist, confirmation, 28:19 reconciliation, anointing of the sick, marriage, and then, 28:23 the holy orders. 28:25 That's dispensed through the church. 28:26 The reformers say, let me just get this, the reformers say, 28:28 no, no, no, no, no, there are not seven sacraments, there 28:32 are two. 28:33 Baptism and communion. 28:35 >>TY: And they're both only symbolic. 28:37 >>JAMES: This reminds me of what Jeff said yesterday. 28:40 Remember when Jeff was talking about that the ladies that 28:42 were waiting for you outside. 28:44 You took away my, so, what am I gonna do now? 28:46 What do I do now? 28:48 >>DAVID: It's a psychological shift. 28:51 It's a psychological shift. 28:52 And let's be honest, ritual has a psychological power. 28:55 It's, there's a comfort in ritual, right? 28:58 Because it doesn't, and I don't wanna be dismissive of 29:01 people here that have a more high liturgy, or a strong, you 29:04 know, ceremonial faith but you can easily get involved in 29:09 those rituals and those ceremonies, in those 29:11 sacraments and be detached from them. 29:14 Right? 29:15 So, we, like, we would say, no, no, no, no, you have to be 29:18 invested in the thing for it to have meaning, whether it's 29:21 baptism or community. 29:22 If you're not invested, the thing only has meaning 29:24 symbolically. 29:26 Right? 29:27 The Catholic response to that would be no, there is, in the 29:30 mass, in the sacraments, the infusion or the presence, take 29:35 for example, the Eucharist, the substance, the actual 29:38 bodily and bloody substance of Jesus, where we would say, 29:41 hey, look, you can go, you can partake of communion, but if 29:45 you're thinking about the Green Bay Packers or whatever, 29:48 you're thinking about something that is not this 29:50 thing, if you're not receiving the symbolism, you're not 29:53 getting it. 29:54 Right, so this is built around the believer, my ascent to the 29:59 truthfulness of what's happening, versus, no, you're 30:01 getting something. 30:02 And didn't your priest say to you, how are you gonna be 30:05 forgiven? 30:07 How, how, how will you be forgiven? 30:09 You gotta come here. 30:10 >>JEFFERY: We do believe that, without the priest, your 30:12 religion falls apart, it's just that Jesus is the priest, 30:15 right, that's the point, it is true. 30:18 >>DAVID: But that's why I'm not a priest. 30:20 I'm a pastor, right, we're pastors, we, so that's a very 30:25 important... 30:26 >>TY: Because in the Roman system, it's not just that the 30:29 priest presides over the dispensing of the sacraments, 30:34 only the priest can preside over the dispensing of the 30:37 sacraments because there is some kind of authority or 30:41 power in him that causes transubstantiation to occur 30:47 whereas, in our particular denomination, in our 30:51 particular situation, if the pastor is sick or doesn't show 30:56 up or whatever, he's just not there, our natural response is 31:00 hey, Dave, hey, Julie, can you preach? 31:03 We're fine with hearing the word from Dave, whoever Dave 31:09 is, he's a guy in the congregation who studies the 31:12 bible for himself and might have something to edify the 31:15 body. 31:16 It's powerful. 31:17 >>DAVID: So, what it does, when you talked about the 31:20 monetization of faith that's a significant part of what's 31:23 going on here, because you go to the church to get these 31:28 emblems of salvation, right? 31:30 So, you have the sacraments of healing and of initiation and 31:32 of service, you gotta go to the church. 31:35 That's where those things are located, where we would say 31:38 the church is, and we can talk about ecclesiology here, but 31:42 we would say the church is a community of likeminded 31:45 believers, that what makes the church the church is just the 31:48 presence of people there and the presence of the spirit. 31:51 We're not an institution as such. 31:53 >>TY: And the spirit shows up wherever two or three are 31:55 gathered together, whether it's under a religious leader 31:59 or not. 32:01 >>JAMES: Our authority is the bible, getting back to the 32:05 issue at hand. 32:06 >>DAVID: The pope that many regard as the first medieval 32:08 pope, Pope Leo the First, was the first one that I know of, 32:13 this was back, now, fifth century, to use Matthew 32:17 chapter 16 in reference to Peter received from Jesus some 32:23 key, some authoritative key, on you, Peter, I will build my 32:27 church and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom. 32:29 Well, you can understand now, just let that psychologically 32:31 settle in. 32:33 If you take that apostolic succession to its logical 32:35 conclusion, and say, hey, if you leave the church, then you 32:38 don't have the keys anymore. 32:40 We're the ones with the keys which is why that passage in 32:44 Matthew 16 is so pivotal. 32:46 >>TY: More than we're the ones with the keys, I'm the one 32:49 with the keys because apostolic succession is really 32:54 the succession of an individual, an individual, an 32:57 individual, an individual, so that we come down to Francis 33:01 and then before Francis and it goes back all the way to Peter 33:05 in a straight line of passing the keys on, so then you have 33:09 something called papal supremacy, which, in a sense, 33:13 is the supremacy of the pope. 33:16 >>DAVID: And the word pope just means father. 33:18 >>JEFFERY: Did you say Pope Leo? 33:20 >>DAVID: Pope Leo the First, I think. 33:22 >>JEFFERY: Somebody will have to fact check this, but I 33:25 think, if I remember correctly, that that same 33:27 scenario with Pope Leo, drawing from Matthew 16, what 33:31 happened was that the Huns were coming to sack Rome and 33:35 as the Huns approached, Rome was, that was it. 33:38 And Leo met him at the gate, so to speak, Attila the Hun, 33:44 and for some reason, nobody knows what happened in that, 33:47 you know, exchange, but succeeds in getting Attila to 33:52 turn around and leave Rome. 33:54 >>DAVID: Wasn't exactly turn around, he said please don't 33:56 destroy the city. 33:58 You can sack it, but don't destroy it. 33:59 >>JEFFERY: And I think that what's significant about that 34:02 is at the same, exactly, at the same time that the pope 34:07 latches onto Matthew 16, that biblical precedent to exalt 34:12 the bishop of Rome, at the same time, there's a political 34:15 dynamic there where now he's a political hero, he's assumed 34:20 political power and so, there's a simultaneous 34:23 grasping of political power with ecclesiastical supremacy. 34:28 >>TY: Yeah, I'm Peter, look what I just did. 34:30 >>DAVID: And you know what's wild about that, that happened 34:32 twice. 34:33 It wasn't just Attila the Hun came in sort of 1450, 34:36 somewhere in there, two years earlier or later, Gathseric 34:39 the Vandal comes. 34:40 So, and same thing, same situation, goes out, please 34:43 spare the city. 34:45 So, this guy, man. 34:46 >>JEFFERY: Slowly, he becomes the civil and religious 34:48 powerhouse. 34:50 >>DAVID: If you're a Roman Catholic, you believe that 34:52 that papal succession, apostolic succession goes all 34:55 the way back to peter and then to Jesus, you believe that, 34:57 but most historians, right, say, secular historians, or 35:02 certainly Protestant historians, they look at that 35:05 apostolic succession, or I should say, papal succession, 35:08 did I say suppression? 35:10 Succession. 35:11 They would say, the first person that you could really 35:14 regard as a pope in the sense that we think of a pope is 35:18 Pope Leo the First, that's 5th century. 35:20 >>TY: Hundreds of years. 35:21 >>DAVID: You've got 400 years, and even if you go and look at 35:24 the actual, the alleged succession, it gets, it's 35:27 messy in here, right? 35:29 And we would say, our response to that would be, there isn't 35:33 anything like. 35:34 >>JEFFERY: There's actually a list, if you go to the 35:36 Vatican, I went to the Vatican and Saint Peter's Basilica and 35:38 back there, there is a big old list on the wall, literally 35:42 tracing back the succession back to Peter. 35:45 >>DAVID: Okay, so this is fascinating, watch this. 35:47 One of the responses that I'm almost certain that everybody 35:51 at this table has heard, I've heard it repeatedly. 35:54 When we talk about scripture, sola scriptura, teaching, 35:59 preaching, wherever we are, you will have a really common 36:02 Catholic response. 36:03 A modern day, a 2017 Catholic response, lay Catholic 36:07 response will be, well, how can you deny the church when 36:10 the church gave you the bible? 36:12 >>JAMES: My mom said that to me. 36:14 >>DAVID: You've heard that? 36:15 You've heard that? 36:16 Okay, here's the problem, the canonization of scripture, how 36:21 we arrived at scripture, the 66, first of all, the Old 36:24 Testament canon was established in the days of 36:27 Jesus, right, so that's, what they mean is the New 36:29 Testament. 36:31 Yeah, they put their empermada on it and say, here's this 36:35 thing. 36:36 Here's the problem, that's happening in the 4th century, 36:38 3rd and 4th centuries. 36:40 Yeah, Jeffrey? 36:42 You don't have what we regard as the first medieval pope, 36:45 and even then, you have a long way to go to get to something 36:47 that's equating to the late medieval popes until the 5th 36:50 century. 36:52 So, the idea that the church gave you the bible is 36:54 anachronistic, I mean, no, sorry, that's two centuries 36:58 too late. 36:59 You follow the point? 37:00 And, but if you say that to your Catholic friends, their 37:04 response will be, no, succession right through. 37:06 But most would look and say, now, the first person that you 37:10 could fairly regard as a pope, Pope Leo the First, middle of 37:16 the fifth century. 37:17 >>TY: So, there's this big, big blank where you get the 37:21 impression that this idea of Peter's successor, the pope is 37:27 a late invention. 37:29 It's not, people aren't thinking that way. 37:33 >>JEFFERY: They would say the bishop of Rome was slowly 37:37 approaching supremacy in Christendom. 37:41 >>TY: Okay, we have to take a break, guys. 37:43 >>DAVID: This is good, this is helpful, 37:44 >>TY: This is really helpful. 37:46 So, we'll come right back and continue moving 37:48 forward. 37:51 [Music] 38:01 Announcer: Truth is not merely a list of theological 38:04 facts, but rather the revelation of God's beautiful 38:06 love in Jesus Christ. 38:09 Truth Link is a series of bible study guides that 38:11 magnify God's love as the center of every bible 38:14 doctrine. 38:16 To receive your free copy of lesson one, call 877-585-1111 38:22 or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, 38:27 Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 38:30 Once again, to receive your free copy of Truth Link lesson 38:33 one, call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers, 38:40 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 38:44 [Music] 38:53 >>TY: So, what we've been talking about is the counter 38:56 reformation and what we're discovering is the powers that 39:01 then were found that it was impossible to concede to what 39:05 the reformers were saying because they saw in any such 39:10 concessions the demise of the system. 39:13 So, what they had to do is they had to basically reaffirm 39:19 that the church, the Roman church is right, is right, is 39:24 right, and is the church and you need to submit, whoever 39:27 you are, the world needs to submit to papal supremacy. 39:32 And we're talking about the council of Trent and we've 39:35 mentioned some of the features of that council. 39:37 Now, the counter reformation, the counter reformation 39:41 extends beyond the council of Trent, into the establishment 39:45 of certain orders, such as the Jesuit order, which was 39:49 specifically found in order to respond, and then, we come all 39:53 the way forward to Vatican II council, so let's back up, 39:55 continue where we left off with the council of Trent, and 40:00 let's see, in this final segment if we can get all the 40:02 way to Vatican II council. 40:03 On your mark, get set, go. 40:05 >>DAVID: Okay, so, we did the first reading there, one of 40:07 the readings that we did from the council of Trent was sola 40:09 scriptura. 40:10 The other major factor of course is sola fida, sola 40:13 gracia, by grace, by faith, alone, alone. 40:16 >>JAMES: Dealing with justification. 40:17 >>TY: And what was the council of Trent's response? 40:20 >>DAVID: So, here's one, they had a number of responses, but 40:22 here's one that any Protestant would take significant umbrage 40:24 in. 40:25 If anyone says that the good works of the justified man, 40:29 are gifts of God in such a way that they are not also the 40:33 good merits of the justified himself, or that the justified 40:37 person, by the good works he performs through the grace of 40:41 God in the merit of Jesus Christ whose living member he 40:43 is, does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal 40:48 life, the attainment of eternal life itself, if he 40:51 dies in grace, and even an increase in glory, let him be 40:55 anathema. 40:57 >>TY: Okay, somebody summarize that in a sentence, summarize 40:58 that in a sentence. 40:59 What is that saying? 41:00 >>JAMES: Basically, that is exactly counter to what the 41:02 reformers were saying. 41:03 The reformers were basically saying grace could be 41:06 irresistible, grace is prevenient because there's no 41:09 way we can merit anything. 41:10 That was their whole idea. 41:12 So, this is completely undermining that. 41:15 This is saying, no, no, no, it's okay if you say that in 41:17 relation to the initial act of justification, but anything 41:22 beyond that, anything at all that is beyond that initial 41:26 contact that God makes with us, now becomes meritorious, 41:29 it must be meritorious. 41:30 >>DAVID: And even the initial thing, one of the big things 41:33 there was that they believed that the soul was prepared for 41:38 justification. 41:40 So, that there's even a preemptive work in the soul 41:43 that is a preparation for justification, and then, after 41:46 justification, hey, now, we should say, in fairness, not 41:51 just prevenient grace, but that there is a preparation, 41:54 it gets a little technical, but they would argue for 41:56 what's called congruity, that justification is consistent 42:00 with what was happening, right? 42:02 >>TY: And they would say it's meritorious, whereas 42:04 prevenient grace, the concept later introduced by Arminius 42:08 was saying there is a grace that precedes... 42:12 >>DAVID: There's an availability. 42:13 >>TY: Yeah, but it's not, what's happening in you 42:16 because of that grace doesn't merit anything. 42:18 >>DAVID: So, you're exactly right, James, when you say 42:20 that what's happening here, I mean, here's the bottom line. 42:23 They're reading the works of the reformers, they're 42:25 listening to the sermons of the reformers and then, 42:26 they're just saying, okay, this guy says this a lot, he 42:28 says this a lot, okay, so if you say this, if you agree 42:31 with this, you're anathema. 42:33 That's, they're pushing back on the very specific doctrines 42:37 of the reformation. 42:38 So, we can, you can go down the list, you can go on 42:41 celibacy, that was another point, that was a touchy 42:43 point, a reaffirmation of clerical celibacy, a 42:45 reaffirmation of transubstantiation, a 42:47 reaffirmation of the supremacy of Rome, apostolic succession. 42:51 Everything that the Protestants were saying, 42:53 here's the counter point, or the counter reformation. 42:56 And that was basically, it was a very precise, very careful, 43:03 almost difficult to read, articulation of Catholic 43:06 doctrine. 43:07 In fact, up to this point, while these things were all 43:09 believed, they had not been elucidated and articulated 43:13 like this. 43:14 'Cause these are articulated in apologetic, these are, if I 43:17 says, Jeffrey, you dadadadadada, you might have 43:21 to formulate a response, but your response is now 43:23 defensive, it's apologetic. 43:25 That's what's happening here. 43:27 And the church elevated these statements to the level of 43:30 dogma. 43:31 So, there's no going back. 43:32 But Ty mentioned Vatican II, when we fast forward to 43:35 Vatican II, which is 1962, the first council of, it was 2800 43:41 bishops, it was a global, I mean, it was huge. 43:43 The idea that was Pope, help me out here, Pope John the 43:49 23rd, convenes Vatican II and the language that he used on 43:52 several occasions was it was time to let some fresh air in. 43:57 But in his opening address, you can go read it, the 44:00 opening address at Vatican II, he convenes 2800 bishops over 44:03 a period of several years, he says, let's be clear. 44:07 We wanna let some fresh air in but nothing we're gonna say 44:10 and do here, which was primarily pastoral, not 44:13 theological, nothing that we're gonna say and do here in 44:15 the modernization of the Catholic church, undoes or 44:20 intention with the very precise articulation that took 44:24 place at Trent. 44:25 >>TY: In other words, what Vatican II was essentially 44:28 saying, David, was there will be no change in substance, but 44:36 we will posture ourselves differently so that there is, 44:41 there is a, you know, we're gonna modernize, we're gonna 44:45 say some things, but theologically, no actual 44:50 theological change in belief has ever occurred with Vatican 44:56 II council, with the council of Trent, with any of the 44:58 counter reformation. 45:00 >>DAVID: I think I might actually have that statement 45:01 here, just keep talking, I'll see if I can find it. 45:03 >>JAMES: I think Vatican II was an ecumenical. 45:06 >>DAVID: It was actually called the second ecumenical 45:08 council. 45:09 >>TY: And by ecumenical we mean what? 45:12 >>JAMES: We are gonna try our best to open the door for 45:16 connection with all of these different disenfranchised 45:19 denominations. 45:21 >>DAVID: Okay, I do have it, sorry I didn't mean to interrupt 45:23 there. 45:24 So, this is the opening address from Pope John the 45:26 23rd at Vatican II. 45:28 He says, what is needed at the present time is a new 45:30 enthusiasm, a new joy and a serenity of mind in the 45:34 unreserved acceptance by all of the entire Christian faith, 45:39 now listen, without forfeiting that accuracy and precision in 45:43 its presentation, which characterize the preceding at 45:45 the council of Trent and the first Vatican council. 45:48 What is needed is that this certain and immutable 45:51 doctrine, certain and immutable doctrine, to which 45:55 the faithful owe obedience, be studied afresh and 45:59 reformulated in contemporary terms. 46:03 >>TY: So, no change of substance, just a change of 46:05 face, and it wasn't even really a significant change of 46:09 face. 46:10 >>DAVID: Well, to us, looking out, but to people inside, 46:13 there are many today in the Catholic faithful that regard 46:16 what happened at Vatican II as an absolute, a U-turn from 46:21 what they should be doing. 46:23 In fact, go ahead. 46:24 >>JAMES: The use of anecular language, as opposed to Latin. 46:29 >>TY: Doesn't have to be in Latin, could be in the 46:30 language of the people. 46:31 >>JAMES: My mom, and we know famous people, Gibson, Mel 46:34 Gibson, my mom, who felt that was a complete compromise, but 46:38 it wasn't a dogmatic thing, it wasn't theological, it was for 46:42 practice. 46:43 For some it is. 46:44 >>JEFFERY: But there was also the whole bit about 46:46 democracies and political revolutions and freedom of 46:50 conscious and these things that the earlier councils, 46:55 yeah, and so, now there's a reposturing, like you said, 46:59 and an openness to maybe scientific progress and these 47:02 sorts of modernizing things. 47:05 >>TY: Is it true that prior to 1962, which isn't that long 47:09 ago, prior to 1962, Vatican II council, that the mass was 47:14 conducted with the priest with his back to the congregation. 47:18 >>JEFFERY: That is a fact. 47:20 >>TY: That's a fact, and Vatican II council said the 47:23 priest can now turn around and face the congregation and 47:28 speak in the vernacular and the congregation can sing. 47:32 >>DAVID: I don't know about the singing thing. 47:34 >>JAMES: I was raised in that, so, I was raised with the 47:36 mass, not in Latin, though they had a Latin mass, when I 47:39 went to church, there was a Latin mass, but it was in 47:41 English, the priest did face the congregation, and we did 47:43 sing. 47:44 >>DAVID: Okay. 47:45 >>TY: Was that prior to 1962? 47:47 >>JAMES: I don't know about that, 'cause I was born in 47:48 1962. 47:50 >>TY: [Laughter] 47:51 So, no, you're a Vatican II council, or you were. 47:55 >>JEFFERY: Remember we were talking about those are 47:58 characteristics that trace back to the ripple effect of 48:01 the priesthood of all believers and the Protestant 48:02 churches. 48:04 Remember, one of the distinguishing quantities was 48:06 that there's congregational singing, there's liturgy in 48:10 the language of the people. 48:12 So, centuries later, there's a reposturing to take on the 48:18 characteristics of what distinguished Protestantism. 48:21 >>TY: But not a single solitary, theological change. 48:24 >>DAVID: And it's important, if you look at the concessions 48:28 if we wanna call it that, or the accommodations or the 48:30 modernizing that takes place at Vatican II, they all 48:33 involve a coming down to this level. 48:37 Okay, so for example, turning around and facing, okay, now 48:40 there's mutuality here, it's not just me, okay, that's one, 48:44 number two, in your language, you can now understand what's 48:48 being said, it sort of takes out some of the mystery and 48:50 you're right, some resist it. 48:51 Number three, they made the investments much less ornate. 48:55 They're more, they're not so ornamental, so all of these 49:01 things, all of these accommodations are coming down 49:04 to appeal to a modern and now, a post-modern world. 49:09 There is a group, a significant group within 49:12 Catholicism, you mentioned Mel Gibson, but there are some 49:15 that go to an extreme and they say that the popes that have 49:18 occupied the seat of Saint Peter, since Vatican II, are 49:23 illegitimate. 49:25 That unless and until the church repents of this 49:28 concession. 49:29 So, the reason I bring that out is that that gives 49:31 you a sense, so we say, okay, now the guy's gonna face, 49:34 we're gonna turn down the investments a little bit and 49:36 they can speak in a language that people can understand and 49:37 people are like, we've gone back on the truth. 49:44 So, there's no concession. 49:47 No, no, no, no. 49:47 >>JAMES: Which is really interesting because in 49:49 Catholic thinking, tradition and truth are on the same 49:52 level. 49:53 >>TY: And in human thinking, because I remember, in our 49:55 beloved denomination, a time not too long ago, maybe 20 49:59 years ago, when some local churches, this is gonna sound 50:04 crazy, began putting the songs on the screen rather than 50:11 singing out of the hymnal, and people began to freak out. 50:16 >>JEFFERY: You remember that transition? 50:17 >>TY: I remember that transition. 50:19 >>JEFFERY: You guys are really old, then. 50:20 >>TY: You're just a youngster. 50:22 >>DAVID: I can give you another transition. 50:25 These are seemingly innocuous, but it's human to find comfort 50:29 in the same stability. 50:32 one of them is, I pastored a church and we needed to get 50:35 new seats, we had these old pews, they were falling apart 50:38 and it was like, let's put some new seats in and there 50:41 were some of us that were like, let's do, like, theatre 50:45 style seating, you know, where you, chairs that can be moved 50:47 around. 50:48 This is a church. 50:51 >>TY: This isn't a theatre. 50:52 >>DAVID: We're putting pews in here, and so, I tell them, 50:56 well, the story behind pews is they were actually made 51:00 purposefully to be uncomfortable or not 51:03 comfortable so that you had to stay awake. 51:08 It was like a penance thing. 51:09 And I said you're padding them, you're padding the 51:12 things that were designed to be wooden and, this is a 51:15 church, we're not putting chairs. 51:19 >>TY: So, this isn't a problem with Catholicism, this is a 51:21 human nature problem. 51:23 What about the 11:00 service? 51:24 We're Protestants and generally, in Protestantism, 51:27 the 11:00 service on Saturday or Sunday, depending on 51:31 whether you're Sabbath keepers or Sunday keepers, the 11:00 51:34 service is often called the sacred hour. 51:38 That's when you have to have church, the divine service, 51:41 and if you suggest having it at maybe a different time on 51:44 that day, maybe 12:00 or 10:00, let's do it a little 51:48 bit earlier, not realizing that there's nothing sacred 51:51 about that hour whatsoever, we got the 11:00 service because 51:56 of Martin Luther's drinking problem, because the mass was 52:00 early in the morning, 6 or 7 AM. 52:02 Dr. Luther could not get there so they change it to 8, then 52:06 to 9, then they settled on 11 so that Dr. Luther could get 52:11 there to preach. 52:13 So, there's nothing sacred about the... 52:14 >>DAVID: I've heard you say this before. 52:16 Is that true? 52:17 >>JEFFERY: He says it's true. 52:19 >>DAVID: Well, we have a friend, we have a brother who 52:22 we know who teaches with us, Brendan Pratt, Brendan Pratt, 52:27 Brendan Pratt has done the research for one of his thesis 52:32 papers to trace the history. 52:35 >>JEFFERY: All I have to say is I hope it's true because 52:36 that's really cool. 52:38 I just like it. 52:40 >>TY: Jeffrey, it is true. 52:42 >>JEFFERY: Good, I'm happy to hear that. 52:43 >>TY: But we could give example after example, but 52:45 let's just distill this. 52:47 We have 3 minutes left, basically, the Protestant 52:49 reformation was emphasizing the gospel and freedom and 52:55 basically, the counter reformation and the church of 52:57 Rome throughout its history has emphasized rather the 53:01 church and control. 53:03 Gospel, freedom, church, control. 53:06 These are two different ways of processing what it means to 53:11 be a human being related to God. 53:13 >>DAVID: And when we talk about control, we're not just 53:15 speaking control in some figurative, no, in the sort of 53:20 motto that flowed out of the council of Trent was worship 53:25 uniformly, instruct thoroughly, police intensely. 53:29 >>TY: Say it one more time. 53:30 >>DAVID: Okay, worship uniformly, we all worship the 53:33 same way. 53:34 Instruct thoroughly, okay, no problem there, police 53:37 intensely. 53:39 And part of that policing was the ramping up, the reramping 53:42 up of an older Catholic institution called the Office 53:47 of the Inquisitor. 53:48 What we know as the Inquisition, so they 53:50 established the Inquisition, hey, are you reading, they had 53:53 a list of books, what was called the index of forbidden 53:55 books. 53:57 Some 550+ authors that were forbidden. 54:01 So, hey, do you have, do you have, do you 54:03 have, now the Inquisition was primarily in the south of 54:05 Europe, Spain primarily, but the idea was not only are we 54:11 telling you what the truth is, but if we find that there's 54:13 any deviation, we will come and you know, the Inquisition 54:17 has this menacing character in the minds. 54:20 It was an agent of control. 54:21 >>JEFFERY: It wasn't just the reformers that were on the 54:23 index of forbidden books, Erasmus himself was in there, 54:25 who was loyal to the church. 54:27 >>DAVID: There were Catholics that were considered on the 54:29 fringe. 54:30 >>TY: Well, today, we don't have the Inquisition, in the 54:34 physical persecution sense, but human nature tends that 54:39 way, so we still have emotional inquisition and 54:42 social inquisition where if somebody within the body of 54:46 Christ is studying or thinking differently, there is 54:50 sometimes a movement to just shut you down and to push you 54:55 out to the edges and to make you feel like you're not a 54:58 part of this thing unless you agree. 55:01 In principle, it's the same thing. 55:03 >>JEFFERY: It's the spirit of the inquisition. 55:04 >>TY: It's the spirit of the Inquisition without the 55:05 implements of torture. 55:07 >>JEFFERY: With different implements of torture. 55:10 >>TY: Mental torture, social torture. 55:13 >>DAVID: But not physical. 55:14 So, maybe we could summarize by saying that the counter 55:17 reformation involved a number of things, beginning with the 55:21 council of Trent, extending right down through Vatican II 55:25 to the modern time and this has been a response on the 55:29 part of the Roman church to the objections and the 55:33 concerns that were raised by protestants. 55:35 What we can say today is that there is certainly 55:39 disagreement. 55:41 Theological disagreement, ecclesiastical disagreement, 55:44 now, that is shifting, there are people that, no, no, no, 55:47 no, no, that's a gap that we can bridge. 55:49 We can all get back together. 55:51 The problem is, is if you do that, you will do that as a 55:54 veneer or as a facade of agreement, because underneath, 55:57 substance, we are singing from two different end books. 56:03 >>JAMES: We gotta look at that in the next program for sure. 56:04 >>TY: Yeah, yeah, so, there's not going to be any 56:08 substantial change on the one side of the disagreement, 56:13 because if there's going to be concession, it's going to be 56:15 on the other side. 56:16 >>DAVID: On the Protestant side. 56:17 >>TY: Yeah. 56:18 Great discussion, guys. 56:19 >>DAVID: Loved it. 56:21 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-18