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[Music]
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>>TY: I think it would
be accurate to say that the
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Protestant reformation is
one of the most significant
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revolutions in human history.
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There's no doubt that
the papal Roman empire is the
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longest lived empire in
human history, especially if you
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take in the pagan
phase, if you just say Rome.
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Wow, this is a long swath
of history where there's a lot,
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yeah, a lot of influence
being exerted and suddenly, the
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pendulum begins to
swing the other direction.
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Suddenly, people are waking
up and saying there's something
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deeply wrong with the way
God is being portrayed, the way
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human beings are being
treated, the way society
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operates, the way the
economy operates, everything was
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terribly, terribly wrong in
that world that Rome, in its
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pagan, and then, in
it's papal phase dominated.
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And then, some courageous
individuals rose up and said
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enough, we're not doing this
anymore, and it wasn't merely
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a rebellion in a political
sense, it was a response in a
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theological sense.
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It was people who were
rising up and saying, listen, a
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different picture of God would
produce a different picture of
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humanity, which would
shape all of humanity's history
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henceforth in a
whole new direction.
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That's the
Protestant reformation.
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It's a revolution.
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It's a complete recalibrating
of human understanding of God
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and of self and of the church
and society in general, not
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just in western Europe, but we
live in a world right now that
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was shaped by the ideas
that came out of the Protestant
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reformation, but that
monolithic system wasn't going
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to tolerate.
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They weren't gonna take that
lying down, and so, we have in
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history something
that is called the counter
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reformation, the reformation
and then we have the counter
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reformation, that is the
response to what Luther and
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Zwingli and Calvin and Arminius.
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>>DAVID: Well, not Arminius.
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>>TY: Yeah, counter reformation.
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>>DAVID: I was thinking
specifically the council of
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Trent, but true enough,
the counter reformation.
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>>TY: So, there's this
thing called the counter
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reformation.
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Now, the counter reformation,
we see it taking place on an
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individual level, I mean,
we have Tetzel responding to
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Luther, we have the pope
responding to Luther, but this
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counter reformation thing
takes on an organized and well
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articulated form, first in
what is called the council of
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Trent.
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>>JEFFERY: So, in that sense,
the reformation is significant
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not only for what it itself
directly sought to change, but
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for how it provoked reactions.
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It set in motion
reactions that had not only
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Ecclesiastical significance,
but also in every other
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aspect, political, social.
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>>TY: And let's be clear about
something, the whole system
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was basically a monetizing
of religion, so there's no way,
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there's no way that the powers
that be are going to allow
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this thing to go
forward because their reasoning
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forward, and they're seeing,
hey, if these ideas take hold,
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if people begin to think
freely, if they begin to think
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that they can determine, in
their own conscience what they
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believe and respond to
God apart from the monetized
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system, well, that spells
the demise of the entire thing
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that we've been
building up for centuries.
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>>JEFFERY: Yeah, the powers
that be have a horse in the
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race.
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>>DAVID: And we should
say, and I know you would agree
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with this, Ty, that because
the church, we're talking
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about the Roman church through
the medieval period, was the
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church.
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I mean, you do have eastern
orthodoxy that sort of emerges
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in the 11th century, but
for our purposes here, western
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Rome, we're talking about
the church, there would've been
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loads, thousands, millions
of people that were sincere in
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that system, some
even in leadership.
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Some that are, hey, Luther
himself was a case in point.
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Luther was preceded by
Haas and Tindale and others who
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were themselves, would've
indentified as Catholic.
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>>JEFFERY: they weren't trying
to start a new thing, they
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were sincerely trying to
reform, 'cause they believed
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the system, they
just wanted to reform it.
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>>DAVID: I just wanna be
careful because it could be
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easy for us, and I know you
weren't saying this, Ty, but
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it could be easy for us to
just homogenize them but there
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were people, even them,
many of the people that would
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become Protestant sympathizers
were themselves formerly
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Catholics.
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These are sincere people.
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And then, there would've been
some in fairness that would've
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been unsympathetic to the
Protestant cause who would've
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remained in Rome who, it
was just too much, too much
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upheaval, too much talking
about people in the lower
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tiers.
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Now, the people in the upper
tiers, they are increasing, as
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the objections and the
attacks, that's what they
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were, against the system are
being raised, there is either,
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I suppose, at some level,
and God only knows this, a
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softening and a hardening.
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Like a yes, yes, sola
scriptura, or, a doubling down
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on the institutionalism,
no, this is, and that's what's
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happening at the
council of Trent.
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So, when the council of Trent
is finally convened and the
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date is late,
think about it, 1545.
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Luther's nailing those theses
in 1517, the protest to the
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princes is 1529?
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When's that?
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1529, so you do the math,
1545, the council of Trent
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convenes just 2-3 months
before Luther dies in 1546,
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February.
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So, it was a fairly
late response considering the
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upheaval.
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>>TY: The system
felt pretty secure.
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The system felt, the people
in the upper echelons of this
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power structure, at fist
just thought that Luther was a
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mosquito on a
wall to be swatted.
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>>DAVID: That's back in 1517,
that's back in 1518, by the
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time we get to 1545, the
divide, the schism between the
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Protestants and the Roman
church, there is no hope of
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reconciliation, they're
not sitting down like this at a
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table.
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So, what's happening at the
council of Trent is, they are
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clarifying what it is that
we believe, because all of these
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attacks coming in, I'm talking
about the church of Rome, the
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leadership in the church
of Rome, there was 20, I don't
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know, 200, when the council of
Trent started, it was smaller,
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there were 3 sessions
that met over 18 years.
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In the first session, I don't
remember exactly, maybe 200
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bishops were there.
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By the time you got to
the end, the council had grown
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significantly, when you
get down to sort of 1460, 1461,
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62, 63, 15, excuse me, it's
a much larger council, and what
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they're doing is, is they're
saying, okay, number one, how
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do we solve the
Protestant problem?
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How do we solve it?
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Because the idea of
reconciliation, hey, you sit
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down at the table, I sit down
at the table, we meet in the
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middle, that ship has sailed,
that ship sailed when Luther
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at the diet at Vern says, no.
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That's number one, number two,
they need to clarify their own
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doctrinal positions
in response to what the
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Protestants have been saying
on the solas that we've been
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talking about.
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And number 3, they met to
try and address the problems
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within the institution,
particularly with regards to
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clerical abuse and corruption.
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>>JEFFERY: So, it's
interesting, can you stop
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right there for a second?
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That it even provided the
occasion for the church of
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Rome to acknowledge some
of its own issues, and even,
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these are issues that
even sympathizers of Rome
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themselves had recognized
before, but now, there was an
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opportunity to actually
deal with it, so even in the
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counter reformation, part
of the counter, part of the
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response, part of the reaction
was to correct some of the
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abuses, that' would've been
one of the ways they could've
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pushed back
against the reformers.
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>>JAMES: That goes all the way
back to Haas because that was
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the same thing with Haas, you
had people who were upset with
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Haas, but you also had
people who were upset with the
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church.
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>>DAVID: So on that, it's
true, what you're saying is
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true, there were people,
going back to my earlier point,
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there were people within the
church who sincerely believed,
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this is the church, the
successor of Peter, we're the
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church, they regarded the
Protestants as heretics, okay,
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I get that, but here's
the problem, at the very upper
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echelon, especially at the
very top, the pope, part of
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the reason the council doesn't
convene until 1545 is that two
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popes refused to meet, I don't
remember their exact names,
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when it finally does convene,
I don't remember that either,
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but there were two popes who
said, no, we're not doing it,
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we're not meeting.
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>>TY: And the reason they
said we're not meeting was
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essentially because they
wanted to occupy a position of
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authority that doesn't
come down to even the level of
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discussion, we're not
gonna talk to you about this.
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>>DAVID: There was a pope and
then there was another one, it
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was in succession.
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And then, the third pope
finally was forced, they said,
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we have to do this.
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>>TY: They essentially
said, we're not talking to you
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because we occupy the position
of power and to even have a
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discussion with you
is to come down somewhat.
00:10:09.00\00:10:13.31
>>DAVID: So you have
to go back even before the
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Protestant reformation, one
of the things that was sort of
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happening in the Roman church
prior to 1517, there was a
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movement called conciliarism
and the root word there is
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council, and there were
movements within the church to
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say, hey, we need to
desensualize the power a
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little bit here, we need, the
pope needs to have, he's still
00:10:33.13\00:10:35.10
the pope, he's still
the successor of Peter, but
00:10:35.10\00:10:38.80
councils need, there
needs to be give and take.
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Well, you can imagine, the
pope is gonna be reluctant to
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convene a council that become
the thing that will take away
00:10:44.61\00:10:48.01
some of his authority.
00:10:48.01\00:10:49.01
So, you're correct.
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There was a reluctance, so
finally, when the Protestant
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thing is just getting out
of hand, it's like a wildfire,
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one pope says, no, we're not
meeting, the second pope sys,
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no, I'm not gonna do that,
because he's afraid of this
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consiliarist revival and
finally, they had to do it,
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they just had to do
it, and so, they sit down.
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>>TY: They had to do it
because the whole thing is
00:11:05.79\00:11:07.76
imploding.
00:11:07.76\00:11:08.96
>>JAMES: The outside problems
are greater than the inside
00:11:08.96\00:11:10.77
issues to be concerned with.
00:11:10.77\00:11:11.77
>>DAVID: You
can't not address this.
00:11:11.77\00:11:13.94
So, when they sit
down, they're gonna solve the
00:11:13.94\00:11:15.94
Protestant problem,
they're gonna clarify their own
00:11:15.94\00:11:17.94
doctrine, in response to
the Protestant critiques and
00:11:17.94\00:11:19.94
they're gonna try to root
out, as Jeffrey was mentioning,
00:11:19.94\00:11:21.94
some of this clerical abuse.
00:11:21.94\00:11:23.14
>>TY: And in clarifying their
own doctrines, no change is
00:11:23.14\00:11:26.48
going to be made.
00:11:26.48\00:11:27.68
>>JEFFERY: I was waiting for
somebody to say that, because
00:11:27.68\00:11:30.12
I was going to ask, so they're
basically just reiterating
00:11:30.12\00:11:35.16
what the church
has always taught.
00:11:35.16\00:11:37.16
>>DAVID: That's true,
but with a greater degree of
00:11:37.16\00:11:39.39
theological precision.
00:11:39.39\00:11:40.86
>>TY: They have to talk
because they have to have
00:11:40.86\00:11:43.40
reasons.
00:11:43.40\00:11:44.40
You have to have reasons.
00:11:44.40\00:11:45.43
>>DAVID: Of course,
and there is no concession.
00:11:45.43\00:11:48.84
>>JEFFERY: Here's
where I'm going with this.
00:11:48.84\00:11:51.97
So, to a certain degree, they
must have believed that there
00:11:51.97\00:11:57.45
was a significant sector in
society that was still, what's
00:11:57.45\00:12:02.88
the word?
00:12:02.88\00:12:03.89
Reachable with
the doctrine of Rome.
00:12:03.89\00:12:08.06
So, they must've thought,
they must've thought, what the
00:12:08.06\00:12:13.36
church is saying is still
compelling, we just need to
00:12:13.36\00:12:15.76
reiterate it with greater force.
00:12:15.76\00:12:18.27
>>TY: It's remarkable, isn't
it, that for the first time,
00:12:18.27\00:12:22.67
these powerful individuals,
the church of Rome, they're
00:12:22.67\00:12:27.44
not moving, they aren't moving.
00:12:27.44\00:12:30.35
They're gonna reaffirm
Catholic doctrine, but Luther,
00:12:30.35\00:12:34.38
Zwingli, the reformers have
essentially pushed them to the
00:12:34.38\00:12:37.82
point where they have
to talk to the people.
00:12:37.82\00:12:41.39
Before that, we're not
talking to the people, we're not
00:12:41.39\00:12:44.19
talking to the people, the
bible's in Latin, the priest
00:12:44.19\00:12:46.86
does mass, facing away
from the congregation, you
00:12:46.86\00:12:50.30
can't sing, there's no
communication, this is not two
00:12:50.30\00:12:54.57
way.
00:12:54.57\00:12:55.74
And suddenly, at least the
reformers have now pushed the
00:12:55.74\00:12:59.47
power structure to
say, you know what?
00:12:59.47\00:13:01.48
We need to have reasons
that we give people, so let's
00:13:01.48\00:13:04.31
explain because now they're
having to honor conscience.
00:13:04.31\00:13:08.25
>>JEFFERY: To a certain
degree, not completely, I
00:13:08.25\00:13:10.39
understand that not even
remotely completely, but to a
00:13:10.39\00:13:12.89
certain degree, they've
now had to acknowledge the
00:13:12.89\00:13:15.59
priesthood of all
believers, in a sense.
00:13:15.59\00:13:17.63
>>TY: That's
what I'm saying, yeah.
00:13:17.63\00:13:20.03
>>JEFFERY: That's interesting.
00:13:20.03\00:13:21.06
>>DAVID: So, the
posture that they take was not a
00:13:21.06\00:13:24.37
reconciliatory posture, and
we know that because the council
00:13:24.37\00:13:28.77
would release dozens and
dozens of statements, I mean,
00:13:28.77\00:13:32.21
volumes of material that
the pronouncements, the official
00:13:32.21\00:13:38.91
dogmatic pronouncements were
framed in the, if anyone says,
00:13:38.91\00:13:44.49
a, b, c, or d, let
them be anathema, or cursed.
00:13:44.49\00:13:49.72
It didn't mean that they
were cut off unilaterally
00:13:49.72\00:13:52.33
eternally, but under
censorship from the church, and
00:13:52.33\00:13:55.10
you need to change, you
need to modify your position to
00:13:55.10\00:13:57.40
come back.
00:13:57.40\00:13:58.43
So, for example, when we
started with our solas, we
00:13:58.43\00:14:01.24
started with which one?
00:14:01.24\00:14:02.24
Sola scriptura, right?
00:14:02.24\00:14:03.41
So, what do you think was
the very first thing that the
00:14:03.41\00:14:08.41
council of Trent addresses?
00:14:08.41\00:14:10.18
They address the
question of sola scriptura.
00:14:10.18\00:14:12.18
So, let me just read you one
of the pronouncements on that
00:14:12.18\00:14:15.72
topic from the council of Trent.
00:14:15.72\00:14:17.72
>>JAMES: All ears.
00:14:17.72\00:14:18.92
>>DAVID: No one should presume
to interpret holy scripture,
00:14:18.92\00:14:22.66
contrary to that sense
which the holy mother church has
00:14:22.66\00:14:26.86
held and holds, whose right
it is to judge concerning the
00:14:26.86\00:14:31.33
true sense and interpretation
of the holy scriptures or
00:14:31.33\00:14:35.80
contrary to the unanimous
consensus of the fathers.
00:14:35.80\00:14:39.74
>>TY: They're essentially
saying, do not think for
00:14:39.74\00:14:43.01
yourself within
the realm of scripture.
00:14:43.01\00:14:45.31
We will tell you what it
means and you're not qualified,
00:14:45.31\00:14:51.19
you're not even qualified
to deal with God on that level.
00:14:51.19\00:14:54.86
>>DAVID: And, in fairness to
them, they wouldn't have said,
00:14:54.86\00:14:57.06
we will tell you, their real
point was, tradition tells us
00:14:57.06\00:15:00.70
all.
00:15:00.70\00:15:01.70
>>JEFFERY: The collective
tradition of the church.
00:15:01.70\00:15:03.67
>>TY: But they're
creating tradition.
00:15:03.67\00:15:05.67
>>DAVID: The idea is, is
that you have, you know, at this
00:15:05.67\00:15:10.01
point, 15 centuries, now,
that's not true, we know that,
00:15:10.01\00:15:13.21
but 15 centuries of momentum
of developmental, doctrinal
00:15:13.21\00:15:19.65
development and traditional
development to say, hey, we
00:15:19.65\00:15:21.65
can't just turn on a dime.
00:15:21.65\00:15:22.65
This is the Titanic.
00:15:22.65\00:15:24.09
So, we're gonna clarify
that if you wanna, yeah, if you
00:15:24.09\00:15:27.52
wanna read scripture, you can
read it devotionally, at this
00:15:27.52\00:15:30.99
point, actually, they don't
say that, but what they are
00:15:30.99\00:15:33.36
saying is, if it comes to
interpretation, you are not
00:15:33.36\00:15:36.36
allowed, you don't have
the skills, the resources,
00:15:36.36\00:15:40.14
whatever.
00:15:40.14\00:15:41.14
Authority, that's the word.
00:15:41.14\00:15:42.94
>>TY: It's an authority issue.
00:15:42.94\00:15:43.91
>>DAVID: To interpret
scripture for yourself.
00:15:43.91\00:15:47.78
What the Protestants were
saying, you know, the plowmen,
00:15:47.78\00:15:50.05
the classing plowman
quote from Tindale, you know.
00:15:50.05\00:15:52.61
>>TY: I will make a
plowboy know more about the holy
00:15:52.61\00:15:56.05
scriptures than you, that
is you in that sense is the
00:15:56.05\00:15:59.45
bishops of Rome.
00:15:59.45\00:16:00.82
>>DAVID: So, yeah, you are
welcome to read scripture, if
00:16:00.82\00:16:04.63
you have it available to
you, you are not allowed to
00:16:04.63\00:16:06.63
interpret scripture different
form the sense, notice that
00:16:06.63\00:16:10.27
word came up twice, the sense
that the church has held and
00:16:10.27\00:16:13.67
holds.
00:16:13.67\00:16:15.10
Okay, so that's taking
a shot at sola scriptura.
00:16:15.10\00:16:19.14
It's basically saying
scripture, yes, yes to
00:16:19.14\00:16:22.38
scripture, but scripture
as interpreted by the church.
00:16:22.38\00:16:25.71
>>JEFFREY: Yeah exactly
00:16:27.62\00:16:28.72
>>DAVID: Right.
00:16:28.72\00:16:30.49
Somebody's phone is ringing.
00:16:30.75\00:16:32.02
>>TY: Sorry.
00:16:32.02\00:16:32.82
>>DAVID: Turn
your phone off, man.
00:16:32.82\00:16:34.52
Okay, so that you've gotta
take a shot at sola scriptura
00:16:34.52\00:16:37.16
because that is the
ediphus on which the Protestant
00:16:37.16\00:16:40.96
reformation is proceeding,
every sola proceeds from that
00:16:40.96\00:16:44.90
basic foundation.
00:16:44.90\00:16:46.13
>>JEFFERY: Because, the
reformers would've been, yeah,
00:16:46.13\00:16:48.14
tradition, but what tradition?
00:16:48.14\00:16:50.24
We're looking at the apostolic
tradition versus the early
00:16:50.24\00:16:52.57
fathers and medieval
theologians and so forth, so,
00:16:52.57\00:16:57.15
there's just two opposing
battles for two opposing
00:16:57.15\00:17:02.05
traditions, essentially, right?
00:17:02.05\00:17:04.55
>>DAVID: There were a number
of issues that they addressed
00:17:04.55\00:17:08.46
specifically, and I suppose
we'll come back to those after
00:17:08.46\00:17:10.49
the break, but the point
here to get sort of in your mind
00:17:10.49\00:17:15.00
is, that when it came time for
them to formally address, and
00:17:15.00\00:17:18.37
I like your point about how
this was kind of a concession,
00:17:18.37\00:17:20.87
hey, we gotta
speak to the mob a bit.
00:17:20.87\00:17:24.74
There was not a reconciliatory
spirit, it was a hardening and
00:17:24.74\00:17:29.34
a doubling down and a
reaffirmation in the strongest
00:17:29.34\00:17:33.15
possible language of what
we have historically believed.
00:17:33.15\00:17:36.92
So, Luther's hope, his
initial hope back in 1517 of a
00:17:36.92\00:17:39.92
reformation,
that dream has died.
00:17:39.92\00:17:44.83
Right, no, that's not
happening, that is not gonna
00:17:44.83\00:17:48.26
happen.
00:17:48.26\00:17:50.03
>>TY: We have to take a break,
but this is just fascinating
00:17:50.10\00:17:52.13
history that impacts the world
that we live in today, so when
00:17:52.13\00:17:58.21
we come back, we'll just
keep moving through what the
00:17:58.21\00:18:02.14
counter reformation entailed.
00:18:02.14\00:18:04.98
[Music]
00:18:05.18\00:18:15.62
>>The bible is a big book.
00:18:15.62\00:18:17.56
It's composed of 66 smaller
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00:18:17.56\00:18:22.10
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00:18:22.10\00:18:23.97
It's easy to get bogged
down in all the genealogies,
00:18:23.97\00:18:27.34
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00:18:27.34\00:18:30.41
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00:18:30.41\00:18:32.54
And yet, the bible is full
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00:18:32.54\00:18:36.91
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00:18:36.91\00:18:39.85
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[Music]
00:19:59.16\00:20:05.43
>>TY: So, right now,
we're exploring the counter
00:20:05.43\00:20:08.17
reformation.
00:20:08.17\00:20:09.37
Those who are sitting in on
this conversation with us out
00:20:09.37\00:20:10.57
there in television land, just
wanna just encourage them to
00:20:10.57\00:20:17.11
just lean in, because this
discussion we're considering
00:20:17.11\00:20:23.42
some complex historical events
that are unfolding and what
00:20:23.42\00:20:28.09
we've said so far is basically
that we have this seismic
00:20:28.09\00:20:33.46
shift of understanding,
regarding God and human
00:20:33.46\00:20:38.87
beings' relation to
God, called the Protestant
00:20:38.87\00:20:43.24
reformation.
00:20:43.24\00:20:44.41
These Protestant reformers
are bucking the most powerful
00:20:44.41\00:20:47.88
system the world has ever known.
00:20:47.88\00:20:49.88
As individuals, by the way,
which, there's a courage here
00:20:49.88\00:20:52.71
that is astounding, and
then, that powerful system is
00:20:52.71\00:20:58.19
responding with counter
claims and saying, no, no, no.
00:20:58.19\00:21:04.93
>>JEFFERY: But those counter
claims are the same claims
00:21:04.93\00:21:07.76
from the beginning.
00:21:07.76\00:21:08.93
>>TY: That's right, they're
not altering anything, they're
00:21:08.93\00:21:11.17
just saying, hey, we
were right, we still are, the
00:21:11.17\00:21:14.40
Protestant reformation is
completely illegitimate, stop,
00:21:14.40\00:21:18.57
cease and desist immediately
or you will suffer the
00:21:18.57\00:21:22.24
repercussions of the church
coming upon you with force.
00:21:22.24\00:21:29.48
It's a pretty brutal response.
00:21:29.48\00:21:32.79
>>JAMES: And one of the
factors here is by the time
00:21:32.79\00:21:35.12
the council convenes and
finishes in the 18 years, a
00:21:35.12\00:21:38.69
good 19-20 of these
prominent reformers are dead.
00:21:38.69\00:21:44.03
So, you've got a church that's
saying, hey, we have been for
00:21:44.03\00:21:46.97
hundreds of years, we
will continue for hundreds of
00:21:46.97\00:21:49.60
years, this little, you know,
mosquito, this little fly in
00:21:49.60\00:21:53.74
the air, we're just gonna
catch it, we're gonna squish
00:21:53.74\00:21:56.81
it, and we're gonna toss it out.
00:21:56.81\00:21:58.81
These guys are past,
they're not gonna survive, they
00:21:58.81\00:22:01.82
themselves weren't even
thinking about developing some
00:22:01.82\00:22:05.12
kind of ongoing structural
movement, if you will, and so
00:22:05.12\00:22:09.76
I think that part of this is
the timing is in relation to the
00:22:09.76\00:22:13.66
fact that they're
making a statement now.
00:22:13.66\00:22:15.63
Because I remember,
personally, when I made this
00:22:15.63\00:22:20.34
transition, it was not just
a religious transition that I
00:22:20.34\00:22:25.14
had to think about, I think
a lot of people in the world
00:22:25.14\00:22:27.58
today think this way, in
a sense, it was a cultural
00:22:27.58\00:22:30.11
transition.
00:22:30.11\00:22:31.98
My family is Catholic from an
Irish perspective, and there's
00:22:31.98\00:22:37.09
the Italian perspective,
there's the South American
00:22:37.09\00:22:41.89
perspective.
00:22:41.89\00:22:43.02
If you understand what I'm
saying and that is, it's not
00:22:43.02\00:22:44.46
just what you believe,
it's the cultural connection.
00:22:44.46\00:22:50.50
>>TY: I don't necessarily
believe Catholicism, I may or
00:22:50.50\00:22:52.73
may not, I am a Catholic.
00:22:52.73\00:22:54.87
>>JAMES: I'm a Catholic,
I can't even imagine being a
00:22:54.87\00:22:57.27
Protestant because that aligns
me with a location, with a
00:22:57.27\00:23:02.04
culture that's totally
different than the culture I
00:23:02.04\00:23:04.38
was raised in.
00:23:04.38\00:23:05.38
And there's a
discomfort with that.
00:23:05.38\00:23:07.62
So, the church now can assert
itself in a powerful way that
00:23:07.62\00:23:13.46
threatens people not just
theologically, but threatens
00:23:13.46\00:23:17.33
them in who you are, yes, and
then, it just reaffirms and it
00:23:17.33\00:23:20.33
says, yes, these men, that
are now, most of them are now
00:23:20.33\00:23:24.67
dead, had said a few things
and of course, it's had its
00:23:24.67\00:23:29.14
impact, but let's just clarify.
00:23:29.14\00:23:32.17
This is actually, and you
know, if you're gonna believe
00:23:32.17\00:23:34.61
those things, you're
gonna kind of be like them.
00:23:34.61\00:23:37.45
You know, they passed format
he scene and you're gonna be
00:23:37.45\00:23:38.85
like them.
00:23:38.85\00:23:40.02
>>JEFFERY: That sheds light
on your whole emphasis on the
00:23:40.02\00:23:41.22
cultural dynamic, sheds light
on why it was such a threat,
00:23:41.22\00:23:48.36
banishment, right, exile,
to say if you're gonna keep
00:23:48.36\00:23:52.23
believing these things, you
know, to us, it's like, okay,
00:23:52.23\00:23:57.17
I'll just get a ticket to
Seattle, Washington, you know,
00:23:57.17\00:24:00.97
Orbitz, peace out, I'm going
to Seattle, but that would've
00:24:00.97\00:24:04.34
been like.
00:24:04.34\00:24:05.54
>>JAMES: Check this out, go
back to the apostolic age, the
00:24:05.54\00:24:08.08
same thing happened.
00:24:08.08\00:24:10.58
>>TY: In the transition
from Judaism to, yeah.
00:24:10.58\00:24:12.91
>>JAMES: The
same thing happened.
00:24:12.91\00:24:14.18
That's why you had those
deacons appointed, that's why
00:24:14.18\00:24:16.52
you had all the people
that needed to be taken care of.
00:24:16.52\00:24:18.65
Now, fast forward, you're
talking about our world right
00:24:18.65\00:24:22.06
now, well, fast forward
to what God has predicted our
00:24:22.06\00:24:25.13
world's gonna look like
in Revelation chapter 13.
00:24:25.13\00:24:27.96
If you don't go along with
the worship that is imposed upon
00:24:27.96\00:24:31.87
the world, guess what, you're
not gonna be, you're out of
00:24:31.87\00:24:34.50
the system.
00:24:34.50\00:24:36.37
Revelation 18 talks about the
fall of the system and it's an
00:24:36.37\00:24:39.27
economic system.
00:24:39.27\00:24:40.51
It's a culture, it's a system
that people, yes, absolutely,
00:24:40.51\00:24:46.05
so this is big.
00:24:46.05\00:24:47.15
>>DAVID: One of the,
what were you gonna say?
00:24:47.15\00:24:49.85
>>TY: I was just gonna say
that even though many of their
00:24:49.85\00:24:52.22
farmers, by the time council
of Trent is taking place, and
00:24:52.22\00:24:55.12
actually it's an 18 year
event, so reformers were dying
00:24:55.12\00:24:58.56
off, you said like 18, 19,
okay, they're dying off, but
00:24:58.56\00:25:02.26
the thing I wanted to
say is, the church of Romans
00:25:02.26\00:25:06.33
underestimating
the power of the ideas.
00:25:06.33\00:25:09.10
It's the ideas, it's the
ideas that have set in motion a
00:25:09.10\00:25:14.14
revolution, you can't put the
toothpaste back inside of the
00:25:14.14\00:25:19.78
tube.
00:25:19.78\00:25:21.12
It's impossible.
00:25:21.12\00:25:22.55
>>JAMES: And what you're
saying is really cool because
00:25:22.55\00:25:24.19
this movement is not
based on big name people.
00:25:24.19\00:25:26.19
>>TY: It's not.
00:25:26.19\00:25:27.32
>>JAMES: No, the people
are just out of the, it's the
00:25:27.32\00:25:31.06
principle.
00:25:31.06\00:25:32.23
>>DAVID: That was a faulty
assumption early on, so, when
00:25:32.23\00:25:35.83
Pope Leo the Tenth hears
about Luther and his theses of
00:25:35.83\00:25:39.23
protest or his theses of
reform, he calls it a monkish
00:25:39.23\00:25:43.24
squabble, he gives it
very little attention.
00:25:43.24\00:25:45.34
Clearly, he's saying, ugh,
who has, I'm the pope, who had
00:25:45.34\00:25:49.34
time to deal with some little
monk in some little city in
00:25:49.34\00:25:53.05
you know, northern Germany?
00:25:53.05\00:25:54.08
>>JEFFERY: But eventually,
they're like, burn their
00:25:54.08\00:25:56.92
books, they're like, wait a
second, there's something more
00:25:56.92\00:26:01.62
to this than just charismatic's.
00:26:01.62\00:26:04.16
>>TY: And you know what
the something more to it was,
00:26:04.16\00:26:05.39
Jeffrey?
00:26:05.39\00:26:06.56
The money, they're just
doing the math back in Rome, and
00:26:06.56\00:26:11.67
they've got a lot of flow,
and suddenly, Luther begins to
00:26:11.67\00:26:15.27
preach, and the
flow's not there anymore.
00:26:15.27\00:26:19.04
Oh, we better do something
here because the money is not
00:26:19.04\00:26:22.44
coming in the way it used to.
00:26:22.44\00:26:24.41
>>DAVID: So, one of the things
we've talked about in Table
00:26:24.41\00:26:27.82
Talk and it's really
quite relevant to the council of
00:26:27.82\00:26:30.65
Trent is the notion of
what is the role of the church?
00:26:30.65\00:26:34.52
And the Protestant answer
to that would be, maybe not
00:26:34.52\00:26:38.59
initially, but came to be, now
is, the church's primary role
00:26:38.59\00:26:43.53
is proclamational
and we're a community.
00:26:43.53\00:26:48.44
We're here, we have something
to say, we have a place to
00:26:48.44\00:26:50.94
belong.
00:26:50.94\00:26:52.14
Okay, that is a very different
conception of church than in
00:26:52.14\00:26:55.71
the Roman Catholic theological
construct where the church
00:26:55.71\00:26:59.28
dispenses
sacraments, 7 sacraments.
00:26:59.28\00:27:03.35
Now, here's a really, just
a cool thought experiment to
00:27:03.35\00:27:05.69
think about.
00:27:05.69\00:27:06.89
Let's say you are a Baptist,
or in our case, a seventh day
00:27:06.89\00:27:09.52
Adventist, or a
Presbyterian, whatever.
00:27:09.52\00:27:12.33
Let's say you're a
Protestant, assemblies of God.
00:27:12.33\00:27:15.43
Imagine in any of those faith
communities, every person that
00:27:15.43\00:27:18.87
you call a pastor, right, so
I'm a pastor, all of us here,
00:27:18.87\00:27:22.54
you're a pastor, pastor,
pastor, you're not a pastor
00:27:22.54\00:27:25.21
right now.
00:27:25.21\00:27:27.24
If, take the Baptist
church, if every single pastor
00:27:27.24\00:27:31.51
disappears, just disappears
from the face of the earth,
00:27:31.51\00:27:35.55
what happens to
the Baptist church?
00:27:35.55\00:27:37.55
Question, does the
Baptist church cease to exist?
00:27:37.55\00:27:40.36
>>TY: Nope.
00:27:40.36\00:27:41.56
>>DAVID: Does the assemblies
of God church cease to exist?
00:27:41.56\00:27:42.99
Does the seventh day
Adventist church cease to exist?
00:27:42.99\00:27:44.46
No.
00:27:44.46\00:27:45.39
>>TY: May even thrive.
00:27:45.39\00:27:46.66
[Laughter]
00:27:46.66\00:27:47.73
Once we're out of the way.
00:27:47.73\00:27:49.00
>>DAVID: But now, switch
that to Catholicism, if every
00:27:49.00\00:27:53.20
priest, every cardinal and
the pope ceases to exist, what
00:27:53.20\00:27:58.77
happens?
00:27:58.77\00:28:00.08
Can the church be sustained in
the absence of its leadership?
00:28:00.08\00:28:02.78
The answer is no.
00:28:02.78\00:28:03.88
And the reason is that
the primary role is not
00:28:03.88\00:28:06.28
proclamational, it's mediatoral.
00:28:06.28\00:28:08.65
It's mediation.
00:28:08.65\00:28:10.52
We are in between God and so,
the sacraments, and there were
00:28:10.52\00:28:13.96
7 of the sacraments, right?
00:28:13.96\00:28:15.29
So, you have baptism,
Eucharist, confirmation,
00:28:15.29\00:28:19.03
reconciliation, anointing of
the sick, marriage, and then,
00:28:19.03\00:28:23.63
the holy orders.
00:28:23.63\00:28:25.00
That's dispensed
through the church.
00:28:25.00\00:28:26.77
The reformers say, let me just
get this, the reformers say,
00:28:26.77\00:28:28.70
no, no, no, no, no, there
are not seven sacraments, there
00:28:28.70\00:28:32.14
are two.
00:28:32.14\00:28:33.51
Baptism and communion.
00:28:33.51\00:28:35.84
>>TY: And they're
both only symbolic.
00:28:35.84\00:28:37.58
>>JAMES: This reminds me
of what Jeff said yesterday.
00:28:37.58\00:28:40.22
Remember when Jeff was talking
about that the ladies that
00:28:40.22\00:28:42.65
were waiting for you outside.
00:28:42.65\00:28:44.65
You took away my, so,
what am I gonna do now?
00:28:44.65\00:28:46.76
What do I do now?
00:28:46.76\00:28:48.69
>>DAVID: It's a
psychological shift.
00:28:48.69\00:28:51.26
It's a psychological shift.
00:28:51.26\00:28:52.39
And let's be honest, ritual
has a psychological power.
00:28:52.39\00:28:55.43
It's, there's a
comfort in ritual, right?
00:28:55.43\00:28:58.43
Because it doesn't, and I
don't wanna be dismissive of
00:28:58.43\00:29:01.44
people here that have a more
high liturgy, or a strong, you
00:29:01.44\00:29:04.57
know, ceremonial faith but
you can easily get involved in
00:29:04.57\00:29:09.54
those rituals and
those ceremonies, in those
00:29:09.54\00:29:11.55
sacraments and be
detached from them.
00:29:11.55\00:29:14.55
Right?
00:29:14.55\00:29:15.75
So, we, like, we would say,
no, no, no, no, you have to be
00:29:15.75\00:29:18.62
invested in the thing for it
to have meaning, whether it's
00:29:18.62\00:29:21.62
baptism or community.
00:29:21.62\00:29:22.69
If you're not invested,
the thing only has meaning
00:29:22.69\00:29:24.96
symbolically.
00:29:24.96\00:29:26.43
Right?
00:29:26.43\00:29:27.66
The Catholic response to that
would be no, there is, in the
00:29:27.66\00:29:30.63
mass, in the sacraments, the
infusion or the presence, take
00:29:30.63\00:29:35.20
for example, the Eucharist,
the substance, the actual
00:29:35.20\00:29:38.07
bodily and bloody substance
of Jesus, where we would say,
00:29:38.07\00:29:41.64
hey, look, you can go, you
can partake of communion, but if
00:29:41.64\00:29:45.35
you're thinking about the
Green Bay Packers or whatever,
00:29:45.35\00:29:48.42
you're thinking about
something that is not this
00:29:48.42\00:29:50.99
thing, if you're not receiving
the symbolism, you're not
00:29:50.99\00:29:53.72
getting it.
00:29:53.72\00:29:54.96
Right, so this is built around
the believer, my ascent to the
00:29:54.96\00:29:59.59
truthfulness of what's
happening, versus, no, you're
00:29:59.59\00:30:01.73
getting something.
00:30:01.73\00:30:02.90
And didn't your priest say
to you, how are you gonna be
00:30:02.90\00:30:05.67
forgiven?
00:30:05.67\00:30:07.14
How, how, how
will you be forgiven?
00:30:07.14\00:30:09.14
You gotta come here.
00:30:09.14\00:30:10.24
>>JEFFERY: We do believe
that, without the priest, your
00:30:10.24\00:30:12.41
religion falls apart, it's
just that Jesus is the priest,
00:30:12.41\00:30:15.18
right, that's the
point, it is true.
00:30:15.18\00:30:18.01
>>DAVID: But that's
why I'm not a priest.
00:30:18.01\00:30:20.02
I'm a pastor, right, we're
pastors, we, so that's a very
00:30:20.02\00:30:25.35
important...
00:30:25.35\00:30:26.52
>>TY: Because in the Roman
system, it's not just that the
00:30:26.52\00:30:29.32
priest presides over the
dispensing of the sacraments,
00:30:29.32\00:30:34.00
only the priest can preside
over the dispensing of the
00:30:34.00\00:30:37.73
sacraments because there
is some kind of authority or
00:30:37.73\00:30:41.77
power in him that causes
transubstantiation to occur
00:30:41.77\00:30:47.64
whereas, in our
particular denomination, in our
00:30:47.64\00:30:51.81
particular situation, if the
pastor is sick or doesn't show
00:30:51.81\00:30:56.12
up or whatever, he's just not
there, our natural response is
00:30:56.12\00:31:00.32
hey, Dave, hey,
Julie, can you preach?
00:31:00.32\00:31:03.16
We're fine with hearing the
word from Dave, whoever Dave
00:31:03.16\00:31:09.43
is, he's a guy in the
congregation who studies the
00:31:09.43\00:31:12.47
bible for himself and might
have something to edify the
00:31:12.47\00:31:15.57
body.
00:31:15.57\00:31:16.57
It's powerful.
00:31:16.57\00:31:17.67
>>DAVID: So, what it
does, when you talked about the
00:31:17.67\00:31:20.68
monetization of faith that's
a significant part of what's
00:31:20.68\00:31:23.61
going on here, because you
go to the church to get these
00:31:23.61\00:31:28.35
emblems of salvation, right?
00:31:28.35\00:31:30.25
So, you have the sacraments
of healing and of initiation and
00:31:30.25\00:31:32.55
of service, you
gotta go to the church.
00:31:32.55\00:31:35.49
That's where those things
are located, where we would say
00:31:35.49\00:31:38.79
the church is, and we can talk
about ecclesiology here, but
00:31:38.79\00:31:42.86
we would say the church
is a community of likeminded
00:31:42.86\00:31:45.10
believers, that what makes the
church the church is just the
00:31:45.10\00:31:48.07
presence of people there
and the presence of the spirit.
00:31:48.07\00:31:51.27
We're not an
institution as such.
00:31:51.27\00:31:53.44
>>TY: And the spirit shows
up wherever two or three are
00:31:53.44\00:31:55.81
gathered together, whether
it's under a religious leader
00:31:55.81\00:31:59.85
or not.
00:31:59.85\00:32:01.08
>>JAMES: Our authority is
the bible, getting back to the
00:32:01.08\00:32:05.25
issue at hand.
00:32:05.25\00:32:06.42
>>DAVID: The pope that many
regard as the first medieval
00:32:06.42\00:32:08.72
pope, Pope Leo the First, was
the first one that I know of,
00:32:08.72\00:32:13.50
this was back, now,
fifth century, to use Matthew
00:32:13.50\00:32:17.27
chapter 16 in reference to
Peter received from Jesus some
00:32:17.27\00:32:23.41
key, some authoritative key,
on you, Peter, I will build my
00:32:23.41\00:32:27.21
church and I will give to
you the keys of the kingdom.
00:32:27.21\00:32:29.94
Well, you can understand now,
just let that psychologically
00:32:29.94\00:32:31.78
settle in.
00:32:31.78\00:32:33.78
If you take that apostolic
succession to its logical
00:32:33.78\00:32:35.18
conclusion, and say, hey, if
you leave the church, then you
00:32:35.18\00:32:38.25
don't have the keys anymore.
00:32:38.25\00:32:40.09
We're the ones with the keys
which is why that passage in
00:32:40.09\00:32:44.06
Matthew 16 is so pivotal.
00:32:44.06\00:32:46.36
>>TY: More than we're the
ones with the keys, I'm the one
00:32:46.36\00:32:49.50
with the keys because
apostolic succession is really
00:32:49.50\00:32:54.70
the succession of an
individual, an individual, an
00:32:54.70\00:32:57.97
individual, an individual,
so that we come down to Francis
00:32:57.97\00:33:01.94
and then before Francis and it
goes back all the way to Peter
00:33:01.94\00:33:05.41
in a straight line of passing
the keys on, so then you have
00:33:05.41\00:33:09.98
something called papal
supremacy, which, in a sense,
00:33:09.98\00:33:13.25
is the supremacy of the pope.
00:33:13.25\00:33:16.52
>>DAVID: And the word
pope just means father.
00:33:16.52\00:33:18.93
>>JEFFERY: Did you say Pope Leo?
00:33:18.93\00:33:20.13
>>DAVID: Pope Leo
the First, I think.
00:33:20.13\00:33:22.40
>>JEFFERY: Somebody will
have to fact check this, but I
00:33:22.40\00:33:25.20
think, if I remember
correctly, that that same
00:33:25.20\00:33:27.60
scenario with Pope Leo,
drawing from Matthew 16, what
00:33:27.60\00:33:31.21
happened was that the Huns
were coming to sack Rome and
00:33:31.21\00:33:35.04
as the Huns approached,
Rome was, that was it.
00:33:35.04\00:33:38.75
And Leo met him at the gate,
so to speak, Attila the Hun,
00:33:38.75\00:33:44.45
and for some reason, nobody
knows what happened in that,
00:33:44.45\00:33:47.62
you know, exchange, but
succeeds in getting Attila to
00:33:47.62\00:33:52.83
turn around and leave Rome.
00:33:52.83\00:33:54.76
>>DAVID: Wasn't exactly turn
around, he said please don't
00:33:54.76\00:33:56.97
destroy the city.
00:33:56.97\00:33:58.03
You can sack it,
but don't destroy it.
00:33:58.03\00:33:59.70
>>JEFFERY: And I think that
what's significant about that
00:33:59.70\00:34:02.04
is at the same, exactly,
at the same time that the pope
00:34:02.04\00:34:07.18
latches onto Matthew 16,
that biblical precedent to exalt
00:34:07.18\00:34:12.45
the bishop of Rome, at the
same time, there's a political
00:34:12.45\00:34:15.65
dynamic there where now he's
a political hero, he's assumed
00:34:15.65\00:34:20.12
political power and
so, there's a simultaneous
00:34:20.12\00:34:23.86
grasping of political power
with ecclesiastical supremacy.
00:34:23.86\00:34:28.20
>>TY: Yeah, I'm
Peter, look what I just did.
00:34:28.20\00:34:30.20
>>DAVID: And you know what's
wild about that, that happened
00:34:30.20\00:34:32.20
twice.
00:34:32.20\00:34:33.30
It wasn't just Attila
the Hun came in sort of 1450,
00:34:33.30\00:34:36.14
somewhere in there, two years
earlier or later, Gathseric
00:34:36.14\00:34:39.47
the Vandal comes.
00:34:39.47\00:34:40.54
So, and same thing, same
situation, goes out, please
00:34:40.54\00:34:43.98
spare the city.
00:34:43.98\00:34:45.05
So, this guy, man.
00:34:45.05\00:34:46.15
>>JEFFERY: Slowly, he
becomes the civil and religious
00:34:46.15\00:34:48.95
powerhouse.
00:34:48.95\00:34:50.05
>>DAVID: If you're a
Roman Catholic, you believe that
00:34:50.05\00:34:52.72
that papal succession,
apostolic succession goes all
00:34:52.72\00:34:55.62
the way back to peter and
then to Jesus, you believe that,
00:34:55.62\00:34:57.93
but most historians, right,
say, secular historians, or
00:34:57.93\00:35:02.33
certainly Protestant
historians, they look at that
00:35:02.33\00:35:05.23
apostolic succession, or I
should say, papal succession,
00:35:05.23\00:35:08.80
did I say suppression?
00:35:08.80\00:35:10.67
Succession.
00:35:10.67\00:35:11.81
They would say, the first
person that you could really
00:35:11.81\00:35:14.38
regard as a pope in the
sense that we think of a pope is
00:35:14.38\00:35:18.05
Pope Leo the
First, that's 5th century.
00:35:18.05\00:35:20.05
>>TY: Hundreds of years.
00:35:20.05\00:35:21.28
>>DAVID: You've got 400 years,
and even if you go and look at
00:35:21.28\00:35:24.32
the actual, the alleged
succession, it gets, it's
00:35:24.32\00:35:27.72
messy in here, right?
00:35:27.72\00:35:29.16
And we would say, our response
to that would be, there isn't
00:35:29.16\00:35:33.50
anything like.
00:35:33.50\00:35:34.56
>>JEFFERY: There's actually
a list, if you go to the
00:35:34.56\00:35:36.46
Vatican, I went to the Vatican
and Saint Peter's Basilica and
00:35:36.46\00:35:38.77
back there, there is a big
old list on the wall, literally
00:35:38.77\00:35:42.80
tracing back the
succession back to Peter.
00:35:42.80\00:35:45.94
>>DAVID: Okay, so this
is fascinating, watch this.
00:35:45.94\00:35:47.94
One of the responses that I'm
almost certain that everybody
00:35:47.94\00:35:51.88
at this table has heard,
I've heard it repeatedly.
00:35:51.88\00:35:54.78
When we talk about scripture,
sola scriptura, teaching,
00:35:54.78\00:35:59.12
preaching, wherever we are,
you will have a really common
00:35:59.12\00:36:02.39
Catholic response.
00:36:02.39\00:36:03.49
A modern day, a 2017
Catholic response, lay Catholic
00:36:03.49\00:36:07.10
response will be, well, how
can you deny the church when
00:36:07.10\00:36:10.77
the church gave you the bible?
00:36:10.77\00:36:12.70
>>JAMES: My mom said that to me.
00:36:12.70\00:36:14.70
>>DAVID: You've heard that?
00:36:14.70\00:36:15.70
You've heard that?
00:36:15.70\00:36:16.94
Okay, here's the problem, the
canonization of scripture, how
00:36:16.94\00:36:21.08
we arrived at scripture,
the 66, first of all, the Old
00:36:21.08\00:36:24.58
Testament canon was
established in the days of
00:36:24.58\00:36:27.25
Jesus, right, so that's,
what they mean is the New
00:36:27.25\00:36:29.35
Testament.
00:36:29.35\00:36:31.65
Yeah, they put their empermada
on it and say, here's this
00:36:31.65\00:36:35.32
thing.
00:36:35.32\00:36:36.49
Here's the problem, that's
happening in the 4th century,
00:36:36.49\00:36:38.69
3rd and 4th centuries.
00:36:38.69\00:36:40.36
Yeah, Jeffrey?
00:36:40.36\00:36:42.06
You don't have what we regard
as the first medieval pope,
00:36:42.06\00:36:45.53
and even then, you have a long
way to go to get to something
00:36:45.53\00:36:47.80
that's equating to the late
medieval popes until the 5th
00:36:47.80\00:36:50.81
century.
00:36:50.81\00:36:52.37
So, the idea that the
church gave you the bible is
00:36:52.37\00:36:54.38
anachronistic, I mean, no,
sorry, that's two centuries
00:36:54.38\00:36:58.15
too late.
00:36:58.15\00:36:59.28
You follow the point?
00:36:59.28\00:37:00.88
And, but if you say that to
your Catholic friends, their
00:37:00.88\00:37:04.12
response will be, no,
succession right through.
00:37:04.12\00:37:06.65
But most would look and say,
now, the first person that you
00:37:06.65\00:37:10.23
could fairly regard as a pope,
Pope Leo the First, middle of
00:37:10.23\00:37:16.03
the fifth century.
00:37:16.03\00:37:17.20
>>TY: So, there's this
big, big blank where you get the
00:37:17.20\00:37:21.50
impression that this idea of
Peter's successor, the pope is
00:37:21.50\00:37:27.08
a late invention.
00:37:27.08\00:37:29.71
It's not, people
aren't thinking that way.
00:37:29.71\00:37:33.05
>>JEFFERY: They would say
the bishop of Rome was slowly
00:37:33.05\00:37:37.32
approaching
supremacy in Christendom.
00:37:37.32\00:37:41.89
>>TY: Okay, we have
to take a break, guys.
00:37:41.89\00:37:43.22
>>DAVID: This is
good, this is helpful,
00:37:43.22\00:37:44.83
>>TY: This is really helpful.
00:37:44.83\00:37:46.39
So, we'll come right
back and continue moving
00:37:46.39\00:37:48.86
forward.
00:37:48.86\00:37:50.97
[Music]
00:37:51.40\00:38:01.81
Announcer: Truth is not
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00:38:01.81\00:38:04.15
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00:38:04.15\00:38:06.92
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00:38:06.92\00:38:09.05
Truth Link is a series
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00:38:09.05\00:38:11.92
magnify God's love as
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00:38:11.92\00:38:14.92
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00:38:14.92\00:38:16.22
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00:38:40.25\00:38:44.85
[Music]
00:38:44.85\00:38:50.63
>>TY: So, what we've been
talking about is the counter
00:38:53.43\00:38:56.06
reformation and what we're
discovering is the powers that
00:38:56.06\00:39:01.14
then were found that it was
impossible to concede to what
00:39:01.14\00:39:05.81
the reformers were saying
because they saw in any such
00:39:05.81\00:39:10.71
concessions the
demise of the system.
00:39:10.71\00:39:13.72
So, what they had to do is
they had to basically reaffirm
00:39:13.72\00:39:19.69
that the church, the Roman
church is right, is right, is
00:39:19.69\00:39:24.06
right, and is the church
and you need to submit, whoever
00:39:24.06\00:39:27.66
you are, the world needs
to submit to papal supremacy.
00:39:27.66\00:39:32.63
And we're talking about
the council of Trent and we've
00:39:32.63\00:39:35.77
mentioned some of the
features of that council.
00:39:35.77\00:39:37.84
Now, the counter reformation,
the counter reformation
00:39:37.84\00:39:41.24
extends beyond the council
of Trent, into the establishment
00:39:41.24\00:39:45.85
of certain orders, such as
the Jesuit order, which was
00:39:45.85\00:39:49.88
specifically found in order to
respond, and then, we come all
00:39:49.88\00:39:53.49
the way forward to Vatican
II council, so let's back up,
00:39:53.49\00:39:55.86
continue where we left off
with the council of Trent, and
00:39:55.86\00:40:00.36
let's see, in this final
segment if we can get all the
00:40:00.36\00:40:02.26
way to Vatican II council.
00:40:02.26\00:40:03.90
On your mark, get set, go.
00:40:03.90\00:40:05.10
>>DAVID: Okay, so, we did
the first reading there, one of
00:40:05.10\00:40:07.87
the readings that we did from
the council of Trent was sola
00:40:07.87\00:40:09.67
scriptura.
00:40:09.67\00:40:10.77
The other major factor
of course is sola fida, sola
00:40:10.77\00:40:13.74
gracia, by grace,
by faith, alone, alone.
00:40:13.74\00:40:16.14
>>JAMES: Dealing
with justification.
00:40:16.14\00:40:17.68
>>TY: And what was the
council of Trent's response?
00:40:17.68\00:40:20.02
>>DAVID: So, here's one, they
had a number of responses, but
00:40:20.02\00:40:22.02
here's one that any Protestant
would take significant umbrage
00:40:22.02\00:40:24.69
in.
00:40:24.69\00:40:25.85
If anyone says that the
good works of the justified man,
00:40:25.85\00:40:29.29
are gifts of God in such a
way that they are not also the
00:40:29.29\00:40:33.86
good merits of the justified
himself, or that the justified
00:40:33.86\00:40:37.93
person, by the good works he
performs through the grace of
00:40:37.93\00:40:41.14
God in the merit of Jesus
Christ whose living member he
00:40:41.14\00:40:43.67
is, does not truly merit
an increase in grace, eternal
00:40:43.67\00:40:48.98
life, the attainment of
eternal life itself, if he
00:40:48.98\00:40:51.78
dies in grace, and even an
increase in glory, let him be
00:40:51.78\00:40:55.98
anathema.
00:40:55.98\00:40:57.22
>>TY: Okay, somebody summarize
that in a sentence, summarize
00:40:57.22\00:40:58.75
that in a sentence.
00:40:58.75\00:40:59.62
What is that saying?
00:40:59.62\00:41:00.86
>>JAMES: Basically, that
is exactly counter to what the
00:41:00.86\00:41:02.79
reformers were saying.
00:41:02.79\00:41:03.86
The reformers were
basically saying grace could be
00:41:03.86\00:41:06.13
irresistible, grace is
prevenient because there's no
00:41:06.13\00:41:09.26
way we can merit anything.
00:41:09.26\00:41:10.97
That was their whole idea.
00:41:10.97\00:41:12.70
So, this is
completely undermining that.
00:41:12.70\00:41:15.20
This is saying, no, no, no,
it's okay if you say that in
00:41:15.20\00:41:17.61
relation to the initial act
of justification, but anything
00:41:17.61\00:41:22.14
beyond that, anything at
all that is beyond that initial
00:41:22.14\00:41:26.08
contact that God makes with
us, now becomes meritorious,
00:41:26.08\00:41:29.65
it must be meritorious.
00:41:29.65\00:41:30.99
>>DAVID: And even the initial
thing, one of the big things
00:41:30.99\00:41:33.59
there was that they believed
that the soul was prepared for
00:41:33.59\00:41:38.73
justification.
00:41:38.73\00:41:40.06
So, that there's even a
preemptive work in the soul
00:41:40.06\00:41:43.00
that is a preparation for
justification, and then, after
00:41:43.00\00:41:46.40
justification, hey, now, we
should say, in fairness, not
00:41:46.40\00:41:51.17
just prevenient grace, but
that there is a preparation,
00:41:51.17\00:41:54.14
it gets a little technical,
but they would argue for
00:41:54.14\00:41:56.34
what's called congruity,
that justification is consistent
00:41:56.34\00:42:00.22
with what was happening, right?
00:42:00.22\00:42:02.18
>>TY: And they would say
it's meritorious, whereas
00:42:02.18\00:42:04.05
prevenient grace, the concept
later introduced by Arminius
00:42:04.05\00:42:08.19
was saying there is a
grace that precedes...
00:42:08.19\00:42:12.49
>>DAVID:
There's an availability.
00:42:12.49\00:42:13.53
>>TY: Yeah, but it's
not, what's happening in you
00:42:13.53\00:42:16.33
because of that grace
doesn't merit anything.
00:42:16.33\00:42:18.23
>>DAVID: So, you're exactly
right, James, when you say
00:42:18.23\00:42:20.27
that what's happening here,
I mean, here's the bottom line.
00:42:20.27\00:42:23.10
They're reading the
works of the reformers, they're
00:42:23.10\00:42:25.24
listening to the sermons
of the reformers and then,
00:42:25.24\00:42:26.94
they're just saying, okay,
this guy says this a lot, he
00:42:26.94\00:42:28.74
says this a lot, okay, so
if you say this, if you agree
00:42:28.74\00:42:31.85
with this, you're anathema.
00:42:31.85\00:42:33.88
That's, they're pushing back
on the very specific doctrines
00:42:33.88\00:42:37.22
of the reformation.
00:42:37.22\00:42:38.85
So, we can, you can go
down the list, you can go on
00:42:38.85\00:42:41.39
celibacy, that was
another point, that was a touchy
00:42:41.39\00:42:43.39
point, a reaffirmation
of clerical celibacy, a
00:42:43.39\00:42:45.43
reaffirmation of
transubstantiation, a
00:42:45.43\00:42:47.73
reaffirmation of the supremacy
of Rome, apostolic succession.
00:42:47.73\00:42:51.37
Everything that the
Protestants were saying,
00:42:51.37\00:42:53.10
here's the counter point,
or the counter reformation.
00:42:53.10\00:42:56.07
And that was basically, it was
a very precise, very careful,
00:42:56.07\00:43:03.48
almost difficult to
read, articulation of Catholic
00:43:03.48\00:43:06.61
doctrine.
00:43:06.61\00:43:07.75
In fact, up to this point,
while these things were all
00:43:07.75\00:43:09.95
believed, they had not
been elucidated and articulated
00:43:09.95\00:43:13.36
like this.
00:43:13.36\00:43:14.56
'Cause these are articulated
in apologetic, these are, if I
00:43:14.56\00:43:17.99
says, Jeffrey, you
dadadadadada, you might have
00:43:17.99\00:43:21.40
to formulate a response,
but your response is now
00:43:21.40\00:43:23.40
defensive, it's apologetic.
00:43:23.40\00:43:25.33
That's what's happening here.
00:43:25.33\00:43:27.34
And the church elevated
these statements to the level of
00:43:27.34\00:43:30.54
dogma.
00:43:30.54\00:43:31.61
So, there's no going back.
00:43:31.61\00:43:32.94
But Ty mentioned Vatican
II, when we fast forward to
00:43:32.94\00:43:35.98
Vatican II, which is 1962, the
first council of, it was 2800
00:43:35.98\00:43:41.48
bishops, it was a
global, I mean, it was huge.
00:43:41.48\00:43:43.62
The idea that was Pope,
help me out here, Pope John the
00:43:43.62\00:43:49.22
23rd, convenes Vatican II
and the language that he used on
00:43:49.22\00:43:52.86
several occasions was it was
time to let some fresh air in.
00:43:52.86\00:43:57.00
But in his opening
address, you can go read it, the
00:43:57.00\00:44:00.37
opening address at Vatican II,
he convenes 2800 bishops over
00:44:00.37\00:44:03.47
a period of several
years, he says, let's be clear.
00:44:03.47\00:44:07.44
We wanna let some fresh air
in but nothing we're gonna say
00:44:07.44\00:44:10.58
and do here, which was
primarily pastoral, not
00:44:10.58\00:44:13.11
theological, nothing that
we're gonna say and do here in
00:44:13.11\00:44:15.12
the modernization of the
Catholic church, undoes or
00:44:15.12\00:44:20.02
intention with the very
precise articulation that took
00:44:20.02\00:44:24.73
place at Trent.
00:44:24.73\00:44:25.83
>>TY: In other words,
what Vatican II was essentially
00:44:25.83\00:44:28.56
saying, David, was there will
be no change in substance, but
00:44:28.56\00:44:36.14
we will posture ourselves
differently so that there is,
00:44:36.14\00:44:41.68
there is a, you know, we're
gonna modernize, we're gonna
00:44:41.68\00:44:45.28
say some things, but
theologically, no actual
00:44:45.28\00:44:50.42
theological change in belief
has ever occurred with Vatican
00:44:50.42\00:44:56.69
II council, with the council
of Trent, with any of the
00:44:56.69\00:44:58.89
counter reformation.
00:44:58.89\00:45:00.16
>>DAVID: I think I might
actually have that statement
00:45:00.16\00:45:01.36
here, just keep talking,
I'll see if I can find it.
00:45:01.36\00:45:03.37
>>JAMES: I think
Vatican II was an ecumenical.
00:45:03.37\00:45:06.70
>>DAVID: It was actually
called the second ecumenical
00:45:06.70\00:45:08.80
council.
00:45:08.80\00:45:09.87
>>TY: And by
ecumenical we mean what?
00:45:09.87\00:45:12.01
>>JAMES: We are gonna try
our best to open the door for
00:45:12.01\00:45:16.14
connection with all of
these different disenfranchised
00:45:16.14\00:45:19.71
denominations.
00:45:19.71\00:45:21.35
>>DAVID: Okay, I do have it,
sorry I didn't mean to interrupt
00:45:21.35\00:45:23.49
there.
00:45:23.49\00:45:24.52
So, this is the opening
address from Pope John the
00:45:24.52\00:45:26.59
23rd at Vatican II.
00:45:26.59\00:45:28.22
He says, what is needed
at the present time is a new
00:45:28.22\00:45:30.33
enthusiasm, a new joy
and a serenity of mind in the
00:45:30.33\00:45:34.20
unreserved acceptance by all
of the entire Christian faith,
00:45:34.20\00:45:39.20
now listen, without forfeiting
that accuracy and precision in
00:45:39.20\00:45:43.07
its presentation, which
characterize the preceding at
00:45:43.07\00:45:45.41
the council of Trent and
the first Vatican council.
00:45:45.41\00:45:48.74
What is needed is that
this certain and immutable
00:45:48.74\00:45:51.95
doctrine, certain and
immutable doctrine, to which
00:45:51.95\00:45:55.98
the faithful owe
obedience, be studied afresh and
00:45:55.98\00:45:59.95
reformulated in
contemporary terms.
00:45:59.95\00:46:03.09
>>TY: So, no change of
substance, just a change of
00:46:03.09\00:46:05.13
face, and it wasn't even
really a significant change of
00:46:05.13\00:46:09.00
face.
00:46:09.00\00:46:10.17
>>DAVID: Well, to us, looking
out, but to people inside,
00:46:10.17\00:46:13.20
there are many today in the
Catholic faithful that regard
00:46:13.20\00:46:16.27
what happened at Vatican II
as an absolute, a U-turn from
00:46:16.27\00:46:21.94
what they should be doing.
00:46:21.94\00:46:23.18
In fact, go ahead.
00:46:23.18\00:46:24.78
>>JAMES: The use of anecular
language, as opposed to Latin.
00:46:24.78\00:46:29.02
>>TY: Doesn't have to be
in Latin, could be in the
00:46:29.02\00:46:30.55
language of the people.
00:46:30.55\00:46:31.69
>>JAMES: My mom, and we
know famous people, Gibson, Mel
00:46:31.69\00:46:34.62
Gibson, my mom, who felt that
was a complete compromise, but
00:46:34.62\00:46:38.69
it wasn't a dogmatic thing, it
wasn't theological, it was for
00:46:38.69\00:46:42.00
practice.
00:46:42.00\00:46:43.20
For some it is.
00:46:43.20\00:46:44.27
>>JEFFERY: But there
was also the whole bit about
00:46:44.27\00:46:46.13
democracies and political
revolutions and freedom of
00:46:46.13\00:46:50.77
conscious and these things
that the earlier councils,
00:46:50.77\00:46:55.34
yeah, and so, now there's
a reposturing, like you said,
00:46:55.34\00:46:59.58
and an openness to maybe
scientific progress and these
00:46:59.58\00:47:02.65
sorts of modernizing things.
00:47:02.65\00:47:05.05
>>TY: Is it true that prior
to 1962, which isn't that long
00:47:05.05\00:47:09.32
ago, prior to 1962, Vatican
II council, that the mass was
00:47:09.32\00:47:14.96
conducted with the priest with
his back to the congregation.
00:47:14.96\00:47:18.80
>>JEFFERY: That is a fact.
00:47:18.80\00:47:20.00
>>TY: That's a fact, and
Vatican II council said the
00:47:20.00\00:47:23.24
priest can now turn around
and face the congregation and
00:47:23.24\00:47:28.01
speak in the vernacular
and the congregation can sing.
00:47:28.01\00:47:32.01
>>DAVID: I don't know
about the singing thing.
00:47:32.01\00:47:34.18
>>JAMES: I was raised in
that, so, I was raised with the
00:47:34.18\00:47:36.82
mass, not in Latin, though
they had a Latin mass, when I
00:47:36.82\00:47:39.22
went to church, there was
a Latin mass, but it was in
00:47:39.22\00:47:41.16
English, the priest did face
the congregation, and we did
00:47:41.16\00:47:43.59
sing.
00:47:43.59\00:47:44.53
>>DAVID: Okay.
00:47:44.53\00:47:45.19
>>TY: Was that prior to 1962?
00:47:45.19\00:47:47.76
>>JAMES: I don't know
about that, 'cause I was born in
00:47:47.76\00:47:48.96
1962.
00:47:48.96\00:47:50.27
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:47:50.27\00:47:51.33
So, no, you're a
Vatican II council, or you were.
00:47:51.33\00:47:55.94
>>JEFFERY: Remember we
were talking about those are
00:47:55.94\00:47:58.77
characteristics that trace
back to the ripple effect of
00:47:58.77\00:48:01.71
the priesthood of all
believers and the Protestant
00:48:01.71\00:48:02.98
churches.
00:48:02.98\00:48:04.05
Remember, one of the
distinguishing quantities was
00:48:04.05\00:48:06.65
that there's congregational
singing, there's liturgy in
00:48:06.65\00:48:10.72
the language of the people.
00:48:10.72\00:48:12.99
So, centuries later, there's
a reposturing to take on the
00:48:12.99\00:48:18.99
characteristics of what
distinguished Protestantism.
00:48:18.99\00:48:21.30
>>TY: But not a single
solitary, theological change.
00:48:21.30\00:48:24.00
>>DAVID: And it's important,
if you look at the concessions
00:48:24.00\00:48:28.24
if we wanna call it that,
or the accommodations or the
00:48:28.24\00:48:30.31
modernizing that takes
place at Vatican II, they all
00:48:30.31\00:48:33.61
involve a coming
down to this level.
00:48:33.61\00:48:37.25
Okay, so for example, turning
around and facing, okay, now
00:48:37.25\00:48:40.15
there's mutuality here, it's
not just me, okay, that's one,
00:48:40.15\00:48:44.15
number two, in your language,
you can now understand what's
00:48:44.15\00:48:48.46
being said, it sort of takes
out some of the mystery and
00:48:48.46\00:48:50.29
you're right, some resist it.
00:48:50.29\00:48:51.86
Number three, they made the
investments much less ornate.
00:48:51.86\00:48:55.30
They're more, they're not
so ornamental, so all of these
00:48:55.30\00:49:01.70
things, all of these
accommodations are coming down
00:49:01.70\00:49:04.34
to appeal to a modern
and now, a post-modern world.
00:49:04.34\00:49:09.48
There is a group, a
significant group within
00:49:09.48\00:49:12.65
Catholicism, you mentioned
Mel Gibson, but there are some
00:49:12.65\00:49:15.05
that go to an extreme and they
say that the popes that have
00:49:15.05\00:49:18.75
occupied the seat of Saint
Peter, since Vatican II, are
00:49:18.75\00:49:23.59
illegitimate.
00:49:23.59\00:49:25.76
That unless and until
the church repents of this
00:49:25.76\00:49:28.33
concession.
00:49:28.33\00:49:29.40
So, the reason I bring
that out is that that gives
00:49:29.40\00:49:31.03
you a sense, so we say,
okay, now the guy's gonna face,
00:49:31.03\00:49:34.44
we're gonna turn down the
investments a little bit and
00:49:34.44\00:49:36.07
they can speak in a language
that people can understand and
00:49:36.07\00:49:37.67
people are like, we've
gone back on the truth.
00:49:37.67\00:49:44.45
So, there's no concession.
00:49:44.45\00:49:47.02
No, no, no, no.
00:49:47.02\00:49:47.98
>>JAMES: Which is
really interesting because in
00:49:47.98\00:49:49.12
Catholic thinking, tradition
and truth are on the same
00:49:49.12\00:49:52.25
level.
00:49:52.25\00:49:53.39
>>TY: And in human thinking,
because I remember, in our
00:49:53.39\00:49:55.16
beloved denomination, a
time not too long ago, maybe 20
00:49:55.16\00:49:59.86
years ago, when some local
churches, this is gonna sound
00:49:59.86\00:50:04.07
crazy, began putting the
songs on the screen rather than
00:50:04.07\00:50:11.14
singing out of the hymnal,
and people began to freak out.
00:50:11.14\00:50:16.28
>>JEFFERY: You
remember that transition?
00:50:16.28\00:50:17.81
>>TY: I
remember that transition.
00:50:17.81\00:50:19.15
>>JEFFERY: You guys
are really old, then.
00:50:19.15\00:50:20.62
>>TY: You're just a youngster.
00:50:20.62\00:50:22.75
>>DAVID: I can give
you another transition.
00:50:22.75\00:50:25.15
These are seemingly innocuous,
but it's human to find comfort
00:50:25.15\00:50:29.49
in the same stability.
00:50:29.49\00:50:32.39
one of them is, I pastored
a church and we needed to get
00:50:32.39\00:50:35.73
new seats, we had these old
pews, they were falling apart
00:50:35.73\00:50:38.33
and it was like, let's put
some new seats in and there
00:50:38.33\00:50:41.77
were some of us that were
like, let's do, like, theatre
00:50:41.77\00:50:45.11
style seating, you know, where
you, chairs that can be moved
00:50:45.11\00:50:47.64
around.
00:50:47.64\00:50:48.74
This is a church.
00:50:48.74\00:50:51.05
>>TY: This isn't a theatre.
00:50:51.05\00:50:52.21
>>DAVID: We're putting pews
in here, and so, I tell them,
00:50:52.21\00:50:56.52
well, the story behind
pews is they were actually made
00:50:56.52\00:51:00.66
purposefully to be
uncomfortable or not
00:51:00.66\00:51:03.93
comfortable so that
you had to stay awake.
00:51:03.93\00:51:08.03
It was like a penance thing.
00:51:08.03\00:51:09.46
And I said you're
padding them, you're padding the
00:51:09.46\00:51:12.43
things that were designed
to be wooden and, this is a
00:51:12.43\00:51:15.34
church, we're
not putting chairs.
00:51:15.34\00:51:19.41
>>TY: So, this isn't a problem
with Catholicism, this is a
00:51:19.41\00:51:21.81
human nature problem.
00:51:21.81\00:51:23.14
What about the 11:00 service?
00:51:23.14\00:51:24.91
We're Protestants and
generally, in Protestantism,
00:51:24.91\00:51:27.18
the 11:00 service on
Saturday or Sunday, depending on
00:51:27.18\00:51:31.22
whether you're Sabbath keepers
or Sunday keepers, the 11:00
00:51:31.22\00:51:34.62
service is often
called the sacred hour.
00:51:34.62\00:51:38.19
That's when you have to
have church, the divine service,
00:51:38.19\00:51:41.20
and if you suggest having
it at maybe a different time on
00:51:41.20\00:51:44.87
that day, maybe 12:00 or
10:00, let's do it a little
00:51:44.87\00:51:48.87
bit earlier, not realizing
that there's nothing sacred
00:51:48.87\00:51:51.91
about that hour whatsoever,
we got the 11:00 service because
00:51:51.91\00:51:56.04
of Martin Luther's drinking
problem, because the mass was
00:51:56.04\00:52:00.95
early in the morning, 6 or 7 AM.
00:52:00.95\00:52:02.92
Dr. Luther could not get there
so they change it to 8, then
00:52:02.92\00:52:06.76
to 9, then they settled on
11 so that Dr. Luther could get
00:52:06.76\00:52:11.23
there to preach.
00:52:11.23\00:52:13.23
So, there's
nothing sacred about the...
00:52:13.23\00:52:14.86
>>DAVID: I've heard
you say this before.
00:52:14.86\00:52:16.10
Is that true?
00:52:16.10\00:52:17.07
>>JEFFERY: He says it's true.
00:52:17.07\00:52:19.20
>>DAVID: Well, we have a
friend, we have a brother who
00:52:19.20\00:52:22.14
we know who teaches with us,
Brendan Pratt, Brendan Pratt,
00:52:22.14\00:52:27.21
Brendan Pratt has done the
research for one of his thesis
00:52:27.21\00:52:32.71
papers to trace the history.
00:52:32.71\00:52:35.02
>>JEFFERY: All I have to
say is I hope it's true because
00:52:35.02\00:52:36.72
that's really cool.
00:52:36.72\00:52:38.15
I just like it.
00:52:38.15\00:52:40.66
>>TY: Jeffrey, it is true.
00:52:40.66\00:52:42.12
>>JEFFERY: Good,
I'm happy to hear that.
00:52:42.12\00:52:43.63
>>TY: But we could give
example after example, but
00:52:43.63\00:52:45.46
let's just distill this.
00:52:45.46\00:52:47.00
We have 3 minutes left,
basically, the Protestant
00:52:47.00\00:52:49.30
reformation was emphasizing
the gospel and freedom and
00:52:49.30\00:52:55.00
basically, the counter
reformation and the church of
00:52:55.00\00:52:57.64
Rome throughout its history
has emphasized rather the
00:52:57.64\00:53:01.61
church and control.
00:53:01.61\00:53:03.75
Gospel,
freedom, church, control.
00:53:03.75\00:53:06.61
These are two different ways
of processing what it means to
00:53:06.61\00:53:11.25
be a human being related to God.
00:53:11.25\00:53:13.05
>>DAVID: And when we talk
about control, we're not just
00:53:13.05\00:53:15.06
speaking control in some
figurative, no, in the sort of
00:53:15.06\00:53:20.76
motto that flowed out of
the council of Trent was worship
00:53:20.76\00:53:25.13
uniformly, instruct
thoroughly, police intensely.
00:53:25.13\00:53:29.34
>>TY: Say it one more time.
00:53:29.34\00:53:30.81
>>DAVID: Okay, worship
uniformly, we all worship the
00:53:30.81\00:53:33.04
same way.
00:53:33.04\00:53:34.14
Instruct thoroughly,
okay, no problem there, police
00:53:34.14\00:53:37.55
intensely.
00:53:37.55\00:53:39.35
And part of that policing was
the ramping up, the reramping
00:53:39.35\00:53:42.82
up of an older Catholic
institution called the Office
00:53:42.82\00:53:47.06
of the Inquisitor.
00:53:47.06\00:53:48.59
What we know as the
Inquisition, so they
00:53:48.59\00:53:50.73
established the Inquisition,
hey, are you reading, they had
00:53:50.73\00:53:53.56
a list of books, what was
called the index of forbidden
00:53:53.56\00:53:55.80
books.
00:53:55.80\00:53:57.00
Some 550+ authors
that were forbidden.
00:53:57.00\00:54:01.97
So,  hey, do you
have, do you have, do you
00:54:01.97\00:54:03.37
have, now the Inquisition
was primarily in the south of
00:54:03.37\00:54:05.67
Europe, Spain primarily,
but the idea was not only are we
00:54:05.67\00:54:11.08
telling you what the truth
is, but if we find that there's
00:54:11.08\00:54:13.45
any deviation, we will come
and you know, the Inquisition
00:54:13.45\00:54:17.22
has this menacing
character in the minds.
00:54:17.22\00:54:20.12
It was an agent of control.
00:54:20.12\00:54:21.96
>>JEFFERY: It wasn't just
the reformers that were on the
00:54:21.96\00:54:23.66
index of forbidden books,
Erasmus himself was in there,
00:54:23.66\00:54:25.99
who was loyal to the church.
00:54:25.99\00:54:27.96
>>DAVID: There were Catholics
that were considered on the
00:54:27.96\00:54:29.70
fringe.
00:54:29.70\00:54:30.87
>>TY: Well, today, we don't
have the Inquisition, in the
00:54:30.87\00:54:34.50
physical persecution sense,
but human nature tends that
00:54:34.50\00:54:39.84
way, so we still have
emotional inquisition and
00:54:39.84\00:54:42.61
social inquisition where
if somebody within the body of
00:54:42.61\00:54:46.45
Christ is studying or
thinking differently, there is
00:54:46.45\00:54:50.35
sometimes a movement to just
shut you down and to push you
00:54:50.35\00:54:55.99
out to the edges and to
make you feel like you're not a
00:54:55.99\00:54:58.43
part of this
thing unless you agree.
00:54:58.43\00:55:01.20
In principle,
it's the same thing.
00:55:01.20\00:55:03.06
>>JEFFERY: It's the
spirit of the inquisition.
00:55:03.06\00:55:04.13
>>TY: It's the spirit of
the Inquisition without the
00:55:04.13\00:55:05.80
implements of torture.
00:55:05.80\00:55:07.17
>>JEFFERY: With
different implements of torture.
00:55:07.17\00:55:10.44
>>TY: Mental
torture, social torture.
00:55:10.44\00:55:13.27
>>DAVID: But not physical.
00:55:13.27\00:55:14.41
So, maybe we could summarize
by saying that the counter
00:55:14.41\00:55:17.95
reformation involved a number
of things, beginning with the
00:55:17.95\00:55:21.65
council of Trent, extending
right down through Vatican II
00:55:21.65\00:55:25.75
to the modern time and
this has been a response on the
00:55:25.75\00:55:29.66
part of the Roman church
to the objections and the
00:55:29.66\00:55:33.23
concerns that were
raised by protestants.
00:55:33.23\00:55:35.20
What we can say today
is that there is certainly
00:55:35.20\00:55:39.53
disagreement.
00:55:39.53\00:55:41.57
Theological disagreement,
ecclesiastical disagreement,
00:55:41.57\00:55:44.67
now, that is shifting, there
are people that, no, no, no,
00:55:44.67\00:55:47.38
no, no, that's a
gap that we can bridge.
00:55:47.38\00:55:49.71
We can all get back together.
00:55:49.71\00:55:51.18
The problem is, is if you
do that, you will do that as a
00:55:51.18\00:55:54.22
veneer or as a facade of
agreement, because underneath,
00:55:54.22\00:55:57.62
substance, we are singing
from two different end books.
00:55:57.62\00:56:03.06
>>JAMES: We gotta look at that
in the next program for sure.
00:56:03.06\00:56:04.89
>>TY: Yeah, yeah, so,
there's not going to be any
00:56:04.89\00:56:08.80
substantial change on the
one side of the disagreement,
00:56:08.80\00:56:13.13
because if there's going to
be concession, it's going to be
00:56:13.13\00:56:15.14
on the other side.
00:56:15.14\00:56:16.44
>>DAVID: On the Protestant side.
00:56:16.44\00:56:17.57
>>TY: Yeah.
00:56:17.57\00:56:18.74
Great discussion, guys.
00:56:18.74\00:56:19.84
>>DAVID: Loved it.
00:56:19.84\00:56:21.34
[Music]
00:56:21.34\00:56:28.82