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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000509A
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00:10 [Music] 00:20 >>TY: So, we've been working our way through the Protestant 00:23 reformation and we're at a point in our discussion where 00:27 we're dealing with the five solas, which are the key 00:32 teaching points that were brought forth by the reformers 00:36 and launched this revolutionary movement. 00:38 We've looked at sola sciptura, we've looked at sola gracia, 00:42 and now, sola fida, or faith alone. 00:46 So, David, you have a series of questions that have been 00:50 posed by a scholar named Alistair McGrath. 00:53 He is one of the definitive scholars on the subject of 00:58 justification by faith in Christian theology and he's 01:02 pretty much in a very simple way, just distilled down the 01:07 key questions that need to be asked regarding to this 01:08 subject. 01:09 Take us through them. 01:10 >>DAVID: Summarized the big questions in 6 questions. 01:15 The title of the book is a history of the Christian 01:17 doctrine of justification, two volume set and considers as 01:20 you said, the definitive work on the historical development 01:23 of the truth of justification by faith. 01:25 And these are the six questions, he said, this is 01:27 what it boiled down to in the context of the Protestant 01:30 reformation and the Catholic response and then the 01:32 Protestant response, et cetera. 01:34 Number one, is justification only extrinsic, judicial, in 01:39 nature, or is there also an intrinsic, or sanctifying work 01:42 involved? 01:44 Number two, what is the relationship between faith and 01:47 good works? 01:48 Number three, does the human have an active role in 01:52 justification? 01:54 Number four, how are justification and the 01:56 sacraments, such as Eucharist, baptism, and penance related? 02:01 Two more, number five, can the believer know with certainty 02:04 that he or she is justified? 02:05 And then, finally, can humans incline themselves toward 02:09 justification, and if so, is this inclination to be 02:13 understood as meritorious? 02:15 So, there's a lot there, but the question is, what is the 02:20 relationship between what the human does and what God does 02:24 in relationship to our standing before God and the 02:29 way that that's accessed by faith? 02:31 >>TY: I think these questions really get to the heart of all 02:34 the issues and we could jus tone by one go through them, 02:38 beginning with extrinsic or intrinsic or both, maybe, I 02:43 don't know, but language that's been helpful for me, 02:47 and this language is not in the bible, but there's a lot 02:50 of language that we use that is not specifically in the 02:53 bible, but describes biblical concepts or biblical ideas, 02:58 okay, so one thing that's been helpful for me with regards to 03:01 justification by faith and salvation in general is to 03:04 understand that there is the objective dimension and then 03:09 there is the subjective dimension. 03:11 This is what McGrath here is articulating as extrinsic 03:17 versus intrinsic. 03:18 So, Romans chapter 3, if you just look at this passage, 03:24 Romans chapter 3, the apostle Paul makes a statement that, 03:29 to our western ears, to a lot of people, anyway, sounds 03:33 very, very strange. 03:35 He speaks in chapter 23, verse 24 of being justified freely 03:41 by God's grace through the redemption that is, here's the 03:45 language, the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 03:48 language, the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 03:50 So, here Paul locates redemption outside of me 03:56 before it's in me. 03:58 Before I'm experiencing anything with it, he's saying 04:02 redemption is in Christ Jesus. 04:05 It's right over there, in him, in the historic life, death, 04:11 resurrection, ascension of Christ, there's something that 04:15 is accomplished without any contribution for me or any 04:17 other human being. 04:19 He just did it and one way that's been helpful for me to 04:21 understand is to pose a hypothetical question. 04:24 Hypothetical question is, if everybody, hypothetically, 04:29 were to refuse salvation, refuse justification, say no 04:34 to God's salvation, would salvation still be an 04:41 accomplished fact in Christ? 04:45 Even if we all say no to it? 04:47 And then, I follow up by saying, even if we all say no 04:51 to salvation, the fact is, that an actual human, a 04:56 specimen of the human race, a member of the human race, 04:59 right now, occupies the throne of the universe at the right 05:02 hand of the Father. 05:04 And his name is Jesus. 05:06 He's there, right now, even if I say no, even if all of us 05:11 say no. 05:12 So, you can say, with theological accuracy that 05:16 salvation of humanity is an accomplished fact in the 05:23 person of Christ, and that's the language Paul is using 05:25 here. 05:27 The redemption that is in Christ Jesus before I ever say 05:31 yes, no, maybe, anything to it. 05:34 And I'm calling this objective. 05:39 And then, that's the thing that I'm responding to. 05:43 >>JEFFERY: Do that again. 05:44 So, salvation is an, it's already, you said the 05:47 salvation of human kind is already accomplished right 05:51 now. 05:52 >>TY: Right now, in Christ. 05:53 So, look at it like this, did Jesus live a life of perfect 05:57 relational integrity, perfect love? 05:59 That's what the law requires. 06:01 Did Jesus live a perfect life of love? 06:03 The answer is yes. 06:04 Did he do that in human nature? 06:06 Yes. 06:07 >>DAVID: Did he do it in space and time? 06:09 >>TY: Yes. 06:10 And when Jesus died on the cross, did he, in dying on the 06:13 cross, did he go through that death as a human being? 06:19 Yes. 06:21 Was he resurrected as much of a human as when he, yes. 06:23 When he ascended to heaven and took the position of victory 06:27 at the right hand of the Father, does he retain his 06:29 humanity? 06:30 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 06:32 So, Paul comes along and uses this very fascinating language 06:36 where he says that we are, you and I, Jeffrey, we are, I am 06:43 crucified with Christ, so that historic act somehow belongs 06:48 to me, pertains to me, applies to me. 06:50 I'm crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not 06:54 I, but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live, I 06:57 live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and died 07:00 for me, Galatians 2:20. 07:01 So, his death somehow has something to do with me 07:04 corporately. 07:05 Then, Paul comes along in Ephesians and he says that we 07:09 are and we're not, but we are, seated, right now, we are 07:15 seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. 07:18 There's some sense in which I'm there. 07:21 Well, how am I there? 07:23 Well, in a representative sense. 07:25 The same way that if an ambassador for the United 07:28 States has flown over to China and is having discussions, we 07:34 would say we, Americans, are in, political conversations 07:42 with China. 07:43 Well, I'm not there, you're not there, but our 07:44 representative is there, he's our representative for these 07:47 political purposes. 07:49 Yeah, so biblically speaking, the bible thinks in corporate 07:53 language. 07:55 The bible thinks in terms of the community more than in 07:59 terms of the individual. 08:00 >>DAVID: That's true, that is absolutely true. 08:02 >>JAMES: Which is really interesting because we 08:04 naturally tend to think that way in times of war. 08:06 Like, Iran, or someone's hurting Americans in a certain 08:09 country and all of America says, hey, wait a minute, 08:12 that's us. 08:14 But we don't tend to think of that just on a regular basis. 08:18 And the thing about that, I think, that's really cool is 08:20 just that the bible informs us that we're engaged in a war. 08:24 We are engaged in a spiritual conflict of great controversy 08:28 between good and evil, right and wrong. 08:30 So, I like that whole idea as it comes to us, because it 08:34 speaks to us, if we will, shift to war mentality, war 08:37 thinking, it speaks to us the way we talk and relate to our 08:41 own country and our own individuals in life itself. 08:44 >>TY: So, there are ways we understand corporate life. 08:47 >>JAMES: That's the way we think. 08:49 >>DAVID: In the English language, we have just one 08:53 word for you, plural or singular, you. 08:58 And I can say you and it's implied, the three of you, or 09:01 you, James, where many languages, most languages, I 09:05 shouldn't say most, but many languages have a distinction 09:08 between you singular and you plural. 09:10 Right? 09:11 Is that true in the Spanish? 09:12 You have you singular and you plural, or you have just you? 09:15 >>TY: Even in English, back east, they have you's guys. 09:17 >>DAVID: Or sometimes, we'll say y'all. 09:19 Down south. 09:20 In Australia, funnily enough, they say you's. 09:24 True story, they'll say, are you's coming? 09:26 So, that's like a room of people, versus are you coming? 09:30 Now, here's why I'm saying that. 09:32 The Greek New Testament, the writings of Paul are almost 09:34 always in the plural version. 09:38 Right? 09:39 They're not in the singular you, they're in the plural 09:41 you's. 09:42 So, the idea here is that there's a community, God is 09:46 saving a community, God is redeeming a community, God is, 09:49 this whole communal thing that's happening, but the 09:52 community starts, and I think this is your point, Ty, it's 09:54 not just that we're a community and God is God, but 09:57 that Jesus has made community, sovereignly connected himself, 10:03 not sovereign, that's not the word I'm looking for, he is in 10:05 solidarity connected himself to us. 10:09 So that if everybody were to say no, to use your 10:10 illustration, if the whole human community down here 10:13 said, no, no. 10:15 Well, the human representative, Jesus, who is 10:17 verily man, the salvation, the redemption is in him. 10:23 >>JEFFERY: Is this then what Paul was talking about in 2 10:26 Corinthians 5, where he says that if one died for all, then 10:32 all died, that's' verse 14, and then, in verse 19, that 10:37 God was in Christ, reconciling the word to himself. 10:40 >>TY: Same concept, different language. 10:43 >>JAMES: It's the same thing, well, in a sense, it's the 10:46 same thing he's saying in John 3:16, for God so loved the 10:51 world, that's the objective, that whosoever believeth in 10:55 him, we haven't gotten to that yet, probably, but yeah, the 10:58 objective, many times, they're in the same verse, they follow 11:01 each other, they connect, and what we do, sometimes, is we 11:03 disconnect them and one of our greatest dangers, I think, not 11:07 dangers, but one of the things we've done more than anything 11:08 else is emphasize the subjective, disconnect it from 11:13 the objective. 11:14 >>TY: And it becomes a form of legalism, where emotionally, 11:16 even if a person can't articulate it, they feel that 11:20 the ownness is on me, to get God's positive response. 11:26 Well, the positive response is already there in Christ, so 11:30 I'm the responder, not him. 11:33 >>JAMES: And the other extreme is to separate the objective 11:37 and lean towards universalism with out that subjective. 11:41 So, God loved the world, everybody's gonna be. 11:43 >>DAVID: So, unpack the subjective then. 11:47 So, the objective is the redemption that is in Christ 11:49 Jesus and the subjective is the faith by which that's 11:51 accessed, is that what you're gonna say? 11:53 >>TY: Yeah, and I think that McGrath's question isn't, I 11:57 mean, it's a good question, but he's saying, is 11:59 justification extrinsic or intrinsic and I think that I 12:08 would tend to say that justification is extrinsic and 12:18 that there's a continuum. 12:20 So, it's just one thing, just goes straight over into the 12:26 other thing experientially. 12:28 So, objectively, salvation, justification is accomplished 12:31 fact in Christ, and now, I'm responding to it, but I don't 12:33 manufacture any new data. 12:38 I don't add anything, and some people would look at the 12:42 distinction that he's made and say, well, no it's never 12:46 intrinsic because that's a different word. 12:50 That's sanctification. 12:52 See, and I think there's a truth to that as well. 12:53 I think there's a sense in which what we're saying is, 12:58 lemme say it this way. 13:01 That sanctification in a sense, I don't know if you'll 13:05 agree with this, this might not be good. 13:07 Sanctification may be justification experienced. 13:15 A continuation of justification. 13:18 >>DAVID: I completely agree with that. 13:19 >>JEFFERY: But I don't know about the justification. 13:21 I always viewed, with the categories that we're 13:24 discussing, I would've been inclined to say justification 13:27 is not objective, but the subjective reality of 13:33 salvation. 13:36 So, justification. 13:37 So, you said, the question was is justification objective or 13:41 subjective? 13:42 >>DAVID: No, is it intrinsic or extrinsic. 13:44 >>JEFFERY: So, those two categories are different from 13:45 objective, subjective? 13:47 I thought you were using those parallels. 13:51 >>TY: I think they're the same. 13:52 >>JEFFERY: You do think they're the same. 13:53 So, then would we say justification is both 13:56 objective and subjective? 13:57 >>TY: I would with explanation. 13:59 >>JEFFERY: So, then tell me if this sounds wrong to say 14:04 justification is the subjective part of salvation. 14:11 >>TY: I don't like that. 14:13 >>JEFFERY: Well, subjective, objective, the fact that is a 14:17 fact in Christ, before... 14:20 >>TY: So, you're essentially saying, you're saying is 14:23 justification always and only experiential, never ever 14:27 objective and legal? 14:29 >>JEFFERY: No, that's not what I'm saying. 14:31 >>TY: That's what you were saying. 14:33 >>JEFFERY: That's not what I meant. 14:35 >>TY: Yeah, so take that off the table. 14:37 >>JEFFERY: Take that off the table, I was just drawing the 14:40 distinction. 14:41 >>TY: So, McGrath is thinking legal. 14:43 He's actually asking, is there a legal dimension that has 14:46 nothing to do with anything any human being does? 14:52 A legal pronouncement, an imputed righteousness? 14:55 Of course, there is. 14:56 >>DAVID: And the key thing here, the reason that we or 15:00 you or we all might've been getting tripped up there is 15:04 that justification is a part of the whole salvation 15:07 reality, but it is a distinguishable part. 15:10 Justification is the means by which we are declared right in 15:13 the sight of God. 15:14 There cannot be any contribution that I am making 15:18 here. 15:19 >>JEFFERY: Distinguish that from grace. 15:21 >>DAVID: What do you mean distinguish it from grace? 15:23 It's by grace. 15:25 Right, the only way that I can have a standing before God is 15:28 his gracious disposition toward me. 15:30 And that is accessed by faith, but as Ty said, it's already 15:35 there. 15:36 >>JEFFERY: So, we have grace, we have faith, and we have 15:38 justification. 15:39 So, there's three different categories. 15:41 >>DAVID: So, justification is the declaration that I am 15:44 right before God, that I have a standing of innocence, a 15:48 standing of righteousness before him, right? 15:51 That's justification. 15:53 Just as if I'd never sinned. 15:55 >>JEFFERY: And that takes place, that becomes a reality 15:57 when grace has access through faith. 16:00 >>DAVID: Well, now, I don't know what Ty and James would 16:03 say to that. 16:04 >>JEFFERY: How does that become a reality without the 16:06 exercise of faith? 16:07 >>DAVID: Well, it already is a reality. 16:09 This is getting back to what we were talking about... 16:11 >>JEFFERY: Now, that's what I was poking around at earlier. 16:13 >>JAMES: Well, we gotta talk about the faith of Jesus in 16:15 that. 16:16 >>TY: Can I show you something that might help in Isaiah 53? 16:19 Okay, so, you have to see these words because they're 16:25 gonna throw us for a loop because we don't notice this 16:28 usually. 16:29 Maybe you have noticed this, I didn't for a long time. 16:32 And then, suddenly, it dawned on me, okay, look at verse 6, 16:36 Isaiah 53, verse 6, all we, like sheep, have gone astray, 16:39 universal or not? 16:41 >>JAMES: Yep. 16:42 >>TY: We have turned everyone to his own way, still 16:45 universal, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us 16:50 all. 16:51 >>DAVID: Yes. 16:51 >>TY: Jesus is bearing whose sin? 16:53 All sin. 16:55 Now, go down to verse 11. 16:57 He shall see the travail of his soul, that is, the Father 17:01 shall see the travail or the labor of the soul of Jesus and 17:05 be satisfied by his knowledge, my righteous servant shall 17:10 justify the many, which is a term, I'll defend this, for 17:16 all. 17:17 He shall justify the many. 17:18 Now, watch this, for he shall bear their iniquities. 17:21 Here's my question. 17:23 In verse 11, in verse 11, those who are justified are 17:32 those whose sins or iniquities he bears. 17:35 And in verse 6, those whose iniquities he bears are all. 17:42 Do I need to repeat that or does that. 17:44 >>DAVID: I got it, I'm just ruminating on it. 17:47 >>TY: Okay, so there's a progression. 17:49 So, we tend to think so much in terms of ourselves and our 17:55 experience that we lose fact of the narrative of scripture 17:58 and the narrative that is an accomplished storyline in 18:01 Christ. 18:02 And what this is saying to us, Isaiah 53, it's saying that 18:06 the Messiah, the Messiah is going to go through the awful 18:10 ordeal of bearing human sin, universally, and in doing 18:16 that, he's going to give a new standing to the human race 18:18 that they can live out of. 18:19 He's basically saying, I'm gonna forge a new identity for 18:24 you. 18:25 And you can relate to the first Adam if you want to. 18:27 You can keep viewing yourself as a sinner who is guilty and 18:34 unrighteous, or you can identify by faith with a new 18:38 narrative that I'm casting for you and in so doing, in so 18:43 doing, my experience can become yours subjectively. 18:47 But before it's ever yours subjectively, it's in me, 18:50 before it's ever yours subjectively, i.e. 18:55 experientially, it belongs to me objectively as a series of 18:59 facts that I worked out. 19:01 facts that I worked out. 19:03 I wrote a story do you believe it? 19:05 >>DAVID: Which is why, when you quote Galatians 2:20, you 19:09 see there the objective reality, historical reality 19:13 has happened, he was crucified in historical event, Paul 19:16 says, I'm now entering in, experientially to that, I 19:20 believe that story. 19:21 I accept that narrative. 19:22 So, it's no longer I who live but Christ that's in me. 19:25 >>JEFFERY: And then, therefore, you're justified. 19:27 At that moment, in that experiential reality, you are 19:29 now justified. 19:30 >>TY: That's true, but the justification existed before 19:34 you did that. 19:35 >>JAMES: Objectively, you're justified. 19:37 >>DAVID: Yeah, we're onto it there. 19:39 >>JEFFERY: You get what I'm saying? 19:41 You understand where I'm poking? 19:43 >>DAVID: I see your scalpel and it's good. 19:46 I like that very precise... 19:47 >>TY: It's a difficult subject because the moment you use the 19:52 word justification, people think that word only applies 19:55 to me and my experience, subjectively, and if that's 19:59 the case, to suggest, as Isaiah 53 plainly says, that 20:05 he bore sin and thereby justified the many, to say 20:09 that, some people are gonna hear that as universalism. 20:12 They're gonna say, okay, then you're saying that everybody's 20:15 saved, but that's not what it's saying. 20:18 There is no such thing as an experiential universalism, but 20:23 there is such a thing as an objective universalism. 20:25 >>DAVID: So, when we come back, can we take a look at 20:28 Romans 5, then? 20:29 In light of this? 20:30 Romans 5 sort of 12 and beyond there? 20:32 >>TY: Take a break, come on back. 20:34 [Music] 20:48 >>This is the story of Niyima, who took a bus to the 20:51 doctor and found a piece of paper with words of hope about 20:56 Jesus, which was left by a church member who unpacked a 21:00 box that came from a truck which drove in from Durban 21:04 where a ship was docked that sailed from Seattle, loaded 21:09 with containers stacked high with millions of tracts, 21:13 trucked in from the Light Bearers Publishing House, 21:16 where more than 600 million pieces of gospel literature 21:20 have been printed in 42 languages. 21:23 Here's the amazing thing, Light Bearers distributes this 21:27 literature free of charge all over the world, and each piece 21:32 costs only 5 pennies to print, transport, and deliver. 21:37 Every day, millions of people buy a $5 cup of coffee, $5 a 21:43 cup, 5 days a week. 21:46 It adds up fast. 21:48 But at just 5 cents apiece, that same $25 can also ship 21:53 500 pieces of literature and give hope to people like 21:57 Niyima, who shared that paper with a classmate, who gave it 22:03 to her cousin, who shared it with his boss, who passed it 22:07 to her grandmother, who left it on another bus, where it 22:12 will be found by someone else. 22:15 And the story continues. 22:17 Five cents doesn't buy a lot these days, but in other parts 22:22 of the world, your nickel could change someone's life. 22:26 Your gift of $25 a month sends out 6,000 pieces of gospel 22:31 literature each year. 22:33 Fifty dollars sends out 12,000, and $100 a month sends 22:38 out 24,000 messages of hope every year, all over the 22:42 world. 22:44 Empower Light Bearers to continue the story. 22:48 Send your gift through lightbearers.org, or by 22:52 calling 877-585-1111. 22:56 Who knew 5 little pennies could do so much? 23:01 [Music] 23:07 >>TY: So, we were looking at Isaiah 53 and James, right 23:10 when we took that break, he drove us back to verse 4, and 23:13 I think you should bring that, James. 23:15 >>JAMES: Well, this is another key verse in the dialogue that 23:19 you were bringing forth from this scripture and that is 23:22 that this is universal in objective sense, so verse 4 23:25 says, and I wanna read it in the context of verse 3, he's 23:28 despised and rejected by man and a man of sorrows and 23:30 acquainted with grief, we hid, as it were, faces from him, he 23:33 was despised, and we esteemed him not. 23:35 Surely he hath born our grief's and carried our 23:38 sorrows. 23:39 That word born there is nasa, and that is used, N-A-S-A, and 23:42 that word is used consistently in the Old Testament, and even 23:47 connects in the New Testament, and it is consistently used in 23:52 the form of forgive, he has forgiven, David talks about 23:56 it, and so, in an objective sense, of course, we all know 24:01 this, he's forgiven all the sins and all the 24:03 transgressions of every single human being on planet earth. 24:05 >>DAVID: Not imputing their trespasses. 24:07 >>JAMES: We do not go to God and ask for forgiveness today 24:10 and then, God says, okay, son, go down to earth, get 24:13 sacrificed, no, he dips into the already accomplished, and 24:20 for all, 7 times Paul emphasized that in Hebrews 24:22 7-10, once and for all, once and for all, once and of all, 24:25 once and for all. 24:26 >>DAVID: That's a good way to say it. 24:28 When a sinner comes, when you and I come and we ask for 24:30 forgiveness, he doesn't have to go create a new thing, he 24:35 dips into the reservoir of grace and of salvational reality 24:39 that's already existed in Christ. 24:41 >>JAMES: And this is a vital reformation truth. 24:44 When it comes to the mass, when it comes to understanding 24:46 what's taking place. 24:47 Well, because, in the mass, transubstantiation is the idea 24:56 that we are now taking Christ and breaking his body and 24:59 spilling his blood again as a sacrifice. 25:02 >>DAVID: When that goes into the mouth, it changes 25:04 substance. 25:06 It becomes the literal substantive flesh and the 25:09 literal substantive blood of Jesus. 25:12 And that's a sacrament. 25:14 >>JAMES: So, when I went back to England as a young man and 25:16 I was confronted with my priest, and he said to me, how 25:19 are you gonna get forgiveness if you don't come to 25:21 confession and you don't come to the mass? 25:23 >>DAVID: Because, now, this goes back to something I said 25:25 in a previous session, and that is, is the role of the 25:27 church primarily proclamational? 25:29 We have something to say and someone to make famous? 25:32 Or is it salvation, mediatorial? 25:34 We, hey, how are you, James, how are you gonna get 25:38 forgiveness? 25:39 You have to come here to the dispensary and you have to get 25:42 it because Jesus is being mass sacrificed again and again, 25:47 and again and again, versus an accomplished, accomplished, 25:51 that's the operative word, done, period, full stop, 25:54 accomplished reality into which we dip to pull out of 25:59 the infinite reservoir of availability. 26:02 >>TY: I love all that and that just opens my heart to the 26:06 Lord. 26:07 >>JAMES: That's why I think it's so important for us to 26:09 recognize how everything's connected together. 26:11 As we get back into this now, just to note that what we're 26:15 talking about in this program is an extension of what we 26:17 talked about in the last program. 26:19 We talked in the last program about, what was the subject 26:21 matter again? 26:22 Yeah, sola gracia. 26:23 In Ephesians, grace is connected to faith, right? 26:30 We're talking about faith now. 26:31 In Romans, faith is connected to the scripture, right? 26:35 Romans 10:17 says, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the 26:38 word of God. 26:39 You see what I'm saying? 26:40 So, all of these are connected together. 26:42 Everything, what we're doing is we're just allowing the 26:44 bible to show us how it's all interconnected together. 26:47 My wife is an RDN, she's a registered dietary 26:50 nutritionist. 26:51 And her big thing right now is that health, physical health 26:56 is not compartmentalized. 26:58 You don't have, you know, your kidneys are one thing and your 27:01 blood's another thing and your, no, it's all, you're all 27:03 one, and everything's interconnected. 27:05 Everything in your body interacts and affects 27:09 everything else. 27:10 Yes, mind, body, the whole thing, and it's the same with 27:13 the bible. 27:14 >>DAVID: You probably know this, but the word health is 27:16 basically just a sort of modernized sloppy version of 27:18 whole, or wholth. 27:20 The whole, we say holistic nowadays. 27:24 So, lemme read this. 27:25 In response to the Protestant reformation, we'll deal with 27:27 this in greater detail in the future, and I do want to get 27:30 to Romans 5, by the way. 27:31 The Catholic church convened in sort of 1545, the council 27:37 of Trent. 27:39 It would last 18 years and we'll go into this in more 27:40 detail, I think, in a future lesson, but one of the things 27:43 that they addressed specifically was a response, 27:46 and they had a series of responses, pronouncements 27:48 against the Protestant understanding of faith. 27:52 We're talking here about sola fida, so listen to this, 27:54 here's one of them. 27:56 If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, 28:01 meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order 28:04 to obtain the grace of justification and that it is 28:09 not necessary in any way that he be prepared and disposed by 28:13 the action of his own will, let him be anathema, or 28:17 cursed. 28:18 >>TY: They're basically quoting the Protestant 28:20 reformer. 28:21 If anyone says, they're quoting it. 28:23 >>DAVID: If anyone says what they're saying, and so you 28:25 have this whole thing about predisposition, are we 28:28 predisposed, and the answer is, yes, we are predisposed by 28:31 prevenient grace, but check this out. 28:33 >>JAMES: But Calvin didn't believe that. 28:35 >>DAVID: Yes, of course, I'm speaking as we as Armenians. 28:38 This is my point. 28:39 We are predisposed in the sense that by the spirit, by 28:42 grace, that's true, but that all happened prior to our 28:46 predisposition. 28:48 We're not, our predisposition doesn't create something. 28:51 Our desire for, that's an accomplished reality in Jesus. 28:55 So, we can say, so I guess we're anathema by the council 28:59 of Trent's standards. 29:00 We can say that that is accessed by faith alone, 29:05 because if there's any other way, if it's faith plus 50 29:08 push ups, right? 29:10 Then, okay, now I'm making some contribution. 29:15 Now, I'm, remember that last lesson we had there, or that 29:19 last session we had, I'm making a claim. 29:23 >>JAMES: I do think, though, it's important to understand 29:25 this point because Arminius is not alive at this time. 29:30 His doctrine is not being taught. 29:33 In other words, he's coming, he's 4 years old when Calvin 29:36 is, Calvin's contemporary with, yeah, with Luther and 29:41 with the council of Trent. 29:42 >>DAVID: No, no, no, he is alive, this is 15, so, Luther 29:45 dies 2 months after the council of Trent is convened, 29:47 1545, he dies in 1546. 29:50 So, he is alive. 29:51 >>JAMES: Okay, but I'm talking about Arminius. 29:53 >>DAVID: Yeah, he's alive. 29:54 >>JAMES: He is born in, what year is he born? 29:57 >>DAVID: I don't know, I wrote down the dates earlier, but 29:59 it's, he's born in 1560. 30:03 And that's the last 18 years, beginning in 1545, so he's 30:06 alive. 30:07 >>JAMES: He's born in 1560. 30:10 Okay, so what I'm saying is, is that when they say this, 30:14 he's not teaching doctrine. 30:15 Arminius is not teaching doctrine. 30:16 They haven't heard him yet. 30:18 What they're hearing is Calvin and what Calvin is saying is, 30:20 there's no prevenient grace, and they're dealing with that, 30:24 because actually, in one of their council of Trent 30:27 doctrines, they do say there is a prevenient grace, they're 30:30 leaning toward that. 30:31 >>TY: But it's meritorious in their framing. 30:33 >>JAMES: In their framing, it's meritorious, but it's 30:35 prevenient, if you know what I'm saying, whereas Calvin was 30:37 not in, so, they're dealing with Calvin and Arminius comes 30:39 along and so, this is what's so amazing about the 30:41 reformation is you've got this back and forth thing going on 30:45 even within Catholicism, 'cause a lot of, you know, 30:48 these reformers are all Catholic. 30:50 I mean, but they're Catholic to begin with, so, as they 30:54 begin, they're trying to sort through, what's going on with 30:57 our church? 30:57 How is this all working out? 30:59 And they're not seeing perfection 'cause sometimes, 31:00 they respond, you know, in a very strong way and then we 31:03 kinda bring it around a little bit, and so, I guess the point 31:07 I'm trying to make is this. 31:09 I had a friend, and you know the story, Catholics aren't 31:12 wrong on everything, and it's true. 31:14 There are some aspects of total depravity, there are 31:17 some aspects of prevenient grace, there are some areas 31:19 here where what they're saying is true and yet, the whole 31:24 thing isn't there, if you know what I'm saying. 31:26 So, if you read the statement again, it talks about, what 31:30 does it say, it says something about. 31:32 >>DAVID: If anyone says that the sinner is justified by 31:34 faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to 31:36 cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and 31:39 that it is not necessary in any way that he be prepared 31:41 and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be 31:44 anathema. 31:45 >>JAMES: Okay, yeah, no, I was wrong on that. 31:47 You've got, right on, okay, your thoughts on that. 31:49 But all I'm saying is in a couple other statements, 31:52 Catholics do affirm prevenient grace. 31:55 >>DAVID: But, and you are raising kind of an interesting 31:58 point here, that is actually helpful to me and that is that 32:02 there was push. 32:03 Here's what's happening. 32:05 In response to the Protestant reformation, when the council 32:08 of Trent convenes, beginning in 1545, they're like, I mean, 32:11 they're circling wagons, right? 32:13 I mean, they're like, hey, we gotta clarify because here 32:16 come all of these critiques and pamphlets are being 32:18 circulated and we need to solidify what it is that we 32:22 believe, and rather than saying, as some of the earlier 32:25 reformers had hoped, hey, maybe we'll get together, 32:28 maybe we'll talk this out, maybe we'll have a Table Talk, 32:31 and we'll all have a meeting of the minds. 32:33 The problem is, is that ship has sailed, right? 32:35 Because now, the Protestants are so far, they're so 32:39 galvanized in what they believe that when the council 32:42 of Trent meets, they don't, there's not this like 32:45 reformatory spirit in the sense of conciliation with the 32:48 Protestants. 32:49 They're' doubling down on what they have historically, and 32:52 that means they're cursed. 32:54 They say, no, no, no, no, if you believe what they're 32:57 saying, and they're being very precise, I mean, the precision 32:59 is phenomenal in the council of Trent. 33:01 If you believe what they're saying. 33:05 Now, somebody did make the point, and it's important to 33:08 recognize that when the word anathema was said, this was 33:11 not an absolute, you know, excommunication, you know, 33:13 irrevocable, what they were saying was, you need to get 33:16 right. 33:17 You're under censor, you need to figure that out. 33:21 But the Protestant response, you're right, the Protestant 33:23 response is, okay, so the council of Trent says, now, we 33:26 say, and then, that divide just gets... 33:29 Because, in fairness, because of the structure and the way 33:33 that the medieval church worked, and the whole idea of 33:37 that God was speaking infallibly and definitively 33:41 through the church and its various dogmas, the Catholic 33:45 church doesn't have a lot of wiggle room to go back on 33:48 things, because you have all of these decrees and all of 33:49 these, how do you go, you know, we were wrong. 33:52 >>TY: The doctrine of infallibility doesn't allow 33:53 for it. 33:55 >>DAVID: But that doesn't yet exist, papal infallibility is 33:56 yet future. 33:57 >>JEFFERY: You would still lose credibility by 33:58 backtracking. 33:59 >>DAVID: Exactly, you still have authoritative councils, 34:02 authoritative traditions and so, it's not like they can 34:05 extend the hand, the olive branch and say, okay, we'll 34:08 meet you halfway. 34:09 Now, the Protestants wouldn't have done that anyway. 34:10 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, but the very thing at stake is the church's 34:11 authority, so any concession would just... 34:16 >>DAVID: Which is why they had to double down, they had to 34:19 say, cursed, cursed, cursed. 34:22 It's not gonna work. 34:23 >>TY: That pretty much brings us logically to McGrath's 34:28 second question, is justification by faith and 34:31 works? 34:32 Is that the question? 34:33 What is the relationship between faith and, okay, what 34:35 is the relationship between faith and good works? 34:39 >>JEFFERY: Whenever we started reading the scriptures, 34:41 somebody shared an illustration with me that I 34:44 wonder how you guys feel about it. 34:47 They said, think of being in a boat and you have two, you 34:52 know, two hands to row, one hand is faith, one hand is 34:57 works. 34:58 >>TY: Yeah, that's heresy. 35:00 Let that be anathema. 35:01 [Laughter] 35:03 >>DAVID: I was just thinking, I'm gonna disagree with what 35:06 he's saying. 35:08 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead, Jeffrey, I'm sorry. 35:11 >>JEFFERY: Now, I'm offended, forget it. 35:14 >>DAVID: No, no, no, no. 35:16 >>JEFFERY: This is not what I believe, but I wanna say 35:19 something that'll get you guys upset. 35:21 >>TY: It depends on where this boat is going and what it's 35:23 doing. 35:24 If you're saying that this boat is rowing toward 35:29 damnation, the illustration works. 35:31 If this boat is rowing toward salvation, you would 35:34 essentially be saying salvation is by faith and 35:38 works. 35:39 No, it's not a good illustration. 35:41 >>JEFFERY: But, if you only row one side, you're just 35:44 gonna go is circles. 35:47 >>DAVID: You're trying to defend this illustration. 35:49 >>TY: The illustration doesn't work. 35:51 >>DAVID: Have you ever actually been in a boat? 35:54 Have you ever actually rowed a boat. 35:55 >>JEFFERY: I did actually, recently. 35:58 >>DAVID: You see how that works? 36:03 This side, then this side, and you go straight. 36:05 One paddle. 36:06 >>TY: Here's one for you, how's the relationship between 36:10 faith and works/ It's not a row boat, it's a speedboat, 36:15 it's a motorboat and I'll tell you why, because Galatians 36:17 chapter 5, verses 5 and 6 says, we eagerly wait for the 36:22 hope of righteousness by faith, and then, he says, in 36:25 verse 6, faith that works by love. 36:30 And the word works there is energeo, energy in the Greek. 36:35 So, he literally says, righteousness is by faith and 36:37 faith is energized or propelled or powered or 36:41 speedboat illustration, just fits right there perfectly. 36:44 So, the point is that we can't say with accuracy that 36:50 salvation is by faith and works, we can say that 36:54 salvation is by faith that works. 36:58 That would. 36:59 >>DAVID: Yeah, I'm cool with that. 37:00 >>JEFFERY: That's what I was trying to lead you to say. 37:02 >>DAVID: Well done, Jeffrey, well done. 37:05 >>JEFFERY: I was trying to set you up to arrive to that 37:07 conclusion. 37:09 >>DAVID: So, here's how I've said this in the past, faith 37:11 and works are not incompatible. 37:14 But grace and works are. 37:15 So, grace and works, we discussed that last time, 37:20 right, you with me? 37:21 >>JEFFERY: I got something, keep going. 37:23 >>DAVID: Okay. 37:24 >>TY: You gonna lead us somewhere again? 37:26 >>JEFFERY: Keep going, keep going. 37:28 >>DAVID: So, grace and works, incompatible, mutually 37:30 exclusive, square circle, they're different things. 37:32 Faith and works, not incompatible, but when it 37:34 comes to salvation, like, for example, if you just get rid 37:36 of the salvation part, we could say, my wife and I, we 37:39 have a relationship of love for one another, we have a 37:41 relationship of trust with one another, we have a 37:43 relationship of faith in one another and that then causes 37:46 us to behave in ways that are mutually beneficial, right? 37:49 So, there's no antipathy, there's no hatred between 37:52 faith and works and any faith based relationship, certainly 37:58 not with God. 37:59 But the line that we cannot cross is to say that those 38:03 works of faith that we are doing, whether spirit inspired 38:06 or not, in any way contribute to the data, to the fact, the 38:13 redemption that is in Jesus. 38:16 >>JEFFERY: Okay, okay, true or false, this statement, faith 38:21 is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning. 38:27 is not opposed to effort, it is opposed to earning. 38:28 True or false? 38:30 >>DAVID: That is by far the longest silence we have ever 38:30 had at this table. 38:32 >>JEFFERY: That is literally in an introduction to a book, 38:35 faith is not opposed to effort but to earning. 38:40 >>TY: Why would faith be opposed to effort? 38:41 It couldn't possible by opposed to effort. 38:42 >>DAVID: As long as you say faith, I'm happy there. 38:44 But if you say grace, I get nervous. 38:45 >>JEFFERY: So, if I said grace, instead grace, grace is 38:50 opposed to earning, not effort. 38:54 >>DAVID: I disagree. 38:55 >>JEFFERY: You would disagree with that. 38:57 >>DAVID: Because they're incompatible, they're mutually 38:58 exclusive. 38:59 >>JEFFERY: But if the word was faith, you would agree. 39:00 >>DAVID: Totally happy. 39:02 >>TY: I think that makes sense. 39:04 We could say it like this, maybe that faith and works 39:10 describe a relational dynamic, not a balance. 39:13 So, I'm not gonna say to you, hey, Jeffrey, okay, faith is 39:18 important and you're saved by faith, but you also need to 39:23 balance that out, Jeffrey, you need to balance that out with 39:26 some works, bro. 39:27 You need those works to balance out your faith. 39:29 No, it's, faith itself is a certain quality, it's a 39:32 certain thing and it is an active principle that 39:36 inevitably produces works. 39:38 >>DAVID: It's a verb. 39:39 >>TY: It's a verb. 39:40 It does things. 39:41 >>DAVID: It's not just a noun, we can faith things. 39:45 Right? 39:46 So, check this out. 39:47 >>TY: Can we check this out after the break, because we're 39:49 already two minutes over, so, let's take a break and we'll 39:51 come right back. 39:52 [Music] 40:03 Announcer: The Light Bearers Story is a short award-winning 40:06 video that gives an inside look at one of the boldest and 40:09 most effective missionary ventures of our time. 40:12 You will see how multiple millions of gospel 40:14 publications are flooding the nations free of charge by 40:17 surprisingly simple means. 40:20 For your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, call 40:22 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 40:28 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:34 Once again, for your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, 40:37 call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers 40:43 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:50 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 40:52 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 40:54 [Music] 41:01 >>TY: David, you were about to take us to a verse. 41:02 >>DAVID: I don't even remember, we were on such a 41:05 good, oh, you're right, so, Ephesians 2, classic, you were 41:09 saved, by grace, you have been saved through faith and that 41:12 not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, 41:15 lest anyone should boast, for we are his workmanship created 41:18 in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared 41:22 beforehand that we should walk in him. 41:24 No problem. 41:25 Here is faith creating good works, no problem, sweet. 41:30 >>TY: So, literally, that says that we're not saved by, but 41:35 we are saved for good works, not by but for. 41:38 >>DAVID: That preposition is key. 41:40 You're not saved through, you're not saved by, you're 41:43 saved for good works. 41:45 >>TY: yeah, because faith believes facts. 41:47 >>DAVID: I got a thought. 41:48 You say what you're gonna say, then I'm gonna say it. 41:50 >>TY: Faith believes facts, it doesn't create facts. 41:53 The facts are all accomplished in Christ and faith is 41:56 latching onto and believing what's going on over there 41:58 outside of myself, which brings it inside of myself. 42:00 >>JEFFERY: It makes those facts operative in life. 42:03 >>DAVID: How about this? 42:04 I just had a total breakthrough. 42:06 We are saved by good works. 42:12 >>JEFFERY: Of course. 42:14 >>DAVID: [Laughter] 42:17 I was hoping you would bite. 42:22 >>TY: Anathema. 42:24 >>DAVID: We are saved by goosd works, by the good works of 42:25 Jesus. 42:26 >>JAMES: There's something else here that I think is 42:28 really significant because when we talk about salvation, 42:30 a lot of times, we put it in the context of the things that 42:34 we do. 42:36 The works that we perform, the actions, the outward 42:41 observation of rules, and we don't always bring it back to 42:44 the heart because really what God is all about is saving our 42:47 hearts for heaven. 42:49 He wants to transform us so that we start thinking 42:51 differently and I just wanted to go back to this in 42:53 Revelation to the whole idea of anathema, because this was 42:57 the bottom line, because yesterday, we talked about 42:59 this, or in a previous program, we talked about 43:01 George Whitefield and John Wesley and how they were 43:03 friends, but they disagreed strongly on the whole idea 43:07 of... 43:08 >>DAVID: Predestination. 43:09 >>JAMES: Yeah, and John said some pretty intense things 43:14 about the doctrine that Whitefield held onto. 43:17 He held dear, and it really upset Whitefield to such a 43:20 degree that they separated for a while, and then they came 43:23 back together and they continued. 43:25 And you remember the story that we talked about? 43:27 >>JEFFERY: yeah, we're not gonna see him. 43:28 >>JAMES: There was something about the gospel that affirms 43:33 its genuineness when it reaches the heart and 43:36 transforms the way that we relate to our enemies. 43:40 Ty brought this up earlier in relation to Matthew chapter 5. 43:43 So, here's the point I wanna make. 43:47 Paul was willing to be anathema on behalf of others, 43:53 who did not believe his doctrine. 43:57 The church organization pronounced, Romans 9:3, 44:05 pronounced anathema against others who didn't agree with 44:08 their doctrine. 44:09 You see the difference? 44:10 >>DAVID: Totally. 44:11 I myself were cursed. 44:13 >>JAMES: You don't believe my doctrine? 44:15 You're anathema. 44:16 Paul said, these brothers and sisters, I wish I were 44:18 anathema. 44:19 >>DAVID: So that they could be saved. 44:21 >>JAMES: Yes. 44:22 >>TY: And is that the Greek word in Romans 9? 44:24 Anathema? 44:25 >>JAMES: It's the Greek word, cursed from Christ, anathema 44:27 is the Greek word right there. 44:29 >>TY: He's essentially saying I wish that I could be 44:31 eternally lost if they could be saved? 44:33 >>JAMES: But let me say... 44:34 >>DAVID: I know a poem, you gave a beautiful poem, I got a 44:36 beautiful poem. 44:37 >>JAMES: Lemme just finish this real quick and then get 44:39 to that poem, but here's the point I wanna make. 44:43 Paul couches that statement with two verses before, and 44:45 this is what he says, he says, I say the truth in Christ, I 44:49 lie not, my conscience also bear me witness in the Holy 44:54 Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continually 44:57 sorrow in my heart. 44:59 See, it's like, you're not gonna believe this. 45:01 >>DAVID: That's right. Yeah that's right. 45:03 >>JAMES: When we go through the New Testament and we identify 45:06 the fruit of the spirit, a lot of times, we identify it in the 45:10 outward obedience. 45:12 But the reformers were getting us back to the heart of the 45:16 matter and that's where it was. 45:17 >>DAVID: So, you have Paul saying, I wish that I were 45:21 cursed for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the 45:24 flesh, and then, you have remember, on Mount Sinai, 45:26 God's like, I'm done. 45:27 I'm done with these people and we're gonna start over with 45:29 you a new nation, right? 45:30 And he's like, no, blot me out. 45:33 Same idea. 45:34 So, there's this beautiful poem. 45:35 I don't even know who wrote it, but I memorized it years 45:37 ago, the fear of heaven, the fear of hell or aiming to be 45:41 blessed savors too much of private interest. 45:44 This moved not Moses nor zealous Paul, who for others 45:49 sacrificed life and all. 45:52 I love that. 45:54 It's not the fear of hell, it's not aiming to be blessed, 45:56 it's this other thing. 45:58 It's a godly thing. 46:01 >>TY: So, salvation suddenly isn't the ultimate objective, 46:04 my personal salvation isn't the issue. 46:07 >>DAVID: Bringing God glory, which is gonna be the last 46:08 sola that we'll be at. 46:09 All the glory goes to God. 46:11 When we write the script in such a way that we become the 46:14 hero of the play, we're doing it wrong. 46:17 Jesus is the hero of the story, and in the words of one 46:20 of my favorite theologians, he says, we are the seventh 46:23 footmen and the fifth foot soldier that come in for a 46:25 moment, make our appearance on the stage, and step off. 46:27 Jesus is the hero in this story. 46:30 We come in, we stand there with our funny outfits on and 46:32 then we leave. 46:34 This is a story about Jesus, not about me. 46:38 >>TY: That's right, and since it's a story about Jesus, back 46:42 to the Ephesians 2 text, I don't know if you guys, did we 46:47 read verse 10? 46:49 >>DAVID: Yeah, I just read it. 46:50 For and by and we are created... 46:52 >>TY: So, what is this language, for we are his 46:54 workmanship created in Christ Jesus, there it is again, the 46:58 thing we were talking about earlier, that universal sense 47:00 in which Jesus is the universal man, the universal 47:03 human that represents all of us, that we are his 47:07 workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which 47:10 God has prepared the good works. 47:13 Prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 47:16 So, Paul's language again, he's very consistent with 47:20 this. 47:21 The good works had been prepared before we do them. 47:24 Before I walk in them. 47:26 They're over there. 47:27 In Christ. 47:28 They exist. 47:29 There's a story that's already been lived out. 47:32 Jesus is the new narrative of humanity. 47:35 >>JEFFERY: The word workmanship there is poema. 47:37 >>TY: Poema. 47:38 So, it's actually, he is in fact, poema. 47:42 >>JEFFERY: You're living that poem. 47:44 >>DAVID: There is at least one translation that says, 47:46 masterpiece. 47:47 >>TY: Yeah, isn't that incredible? 47:49 >>DAVID: We are his masterpiece, what a story. 47:53 I love that because it brings in the artisan component, it 47:55 brings in the... 47:57 >>JEFFERY: Creative expression. 47:58 >>DAVID: Because so much of the way we talk about 48:00 salvation, and there is an element of this, but so much 48:02 of it is legal, and for most of us, the legal thing, like, 48:05 it moves you. 48:06 But a poem moves you in another way. 48:09 A masterpiece moves you in another way. 48:12 Love moves you in another way. 48:14 A song moves you in another way. 48:16 So, there is the legal, but there's the artistic. 48:19 There's the creative. 48:20 >>TY: My favorite book on preaching ever is Walter 48:22 Brueggemann, the title alone will speak to you, The title 48:26 of the book is Finally, comma, Comes the Poet, exclamation 48:30 point. 48:31 And what this book is about is he is essentially saying that 48:34 all of the prophets and apostles, the writings of 48:38 scripture are artistic renderings of the heart of 48:42 God. 48:43 And that if the gospels' going to finally be preached with 48:45 power, it's going to have to be preached as a beautiful 48:49 depiction, not just as a series of propositional 48:53 doctrines. 48:54 >>DAVID: Look at Jesus. 48:55 >>TY: So, it's kind of like a sigh, you know, we're 48:58 listening to all this preaching, ours included, 49:01 we're listening to all this lawyer preaching, all of our 49:04 propositional statements and then the title of the book is 49:07 Finally, Comes the Poet. 49:09 We've been waiting for beauty, we've been waiting for art, 49:12 we've been waiting for Isaiah's Savior songs. 49:15 >>JEFFERY: Without a parable, he did nothing. 49:21 >>DAVID: He was telling stories, he was telling 49:23 illustrations. 49:24 >>JEFFERY: He was a poet, he was a storyteller. 49:26 >>DAVID: And he told some amazing stories. 49:28 Stories that people laid hold of and, yes. 49:32 But, I'll say this, and this is slightly controversial, 49:37 but, the reason, one of the reasons that we have such a 49:41 legal framework for our understanding of salvation, 49:45 there are textual elements of law court, we see it in 49:48 Daniel, we see it in the writings of Paul, but the 49:50 reason that we are skewed that way, or overemphasizing that 49:54 is that that is the context of the Protestant reformation. 49:59 That's our heritage. 50:01 Well, basically, you are having very precise, very 50:04 theological, very legal debates between exactly what 50:07 do you mean by that? 50:09 What do you mean by that? 50:11 Let them, so, because you have this legal framework, I mean, 50:14 what did Luther study before he became a monk? 50:17 He was studying law. 50:19 Calvin, exactly, so we inherit a legal way of thinking about 50:23 salvation, thinking about life, the narrative, and there 50:26 is an element of that, you read it in Paul, you read it, 50:28 you can find, but there are other elements as well, 50:31 elements that we tend not to emphasize. 50:33 Relational, psychological, artistic. 50:38 We don't wanna deny, we don't need less of something, we 50:40 need more of something. 50:42 Not less of the legal, but more of the other. 50:44 >>TY: Praise God, praise God. 50:46 I'm thinking of an experience that I had as a teenage boy 50:51 with my mom. 50:53 And she, at this point, was not a follower of Jesus, I 50:57 wasn't, definitely, but I had an experience with her that 51:01 I've looked back on over and over again that illustrated to 51:04 me what James was sharing earlier in Isaiah 53 about 51:07 nasa, forgiveness, this idea that forgiveness, the word 51:12 nasa means basically to lift off, to take a burden off. 51:16 I bore it for you type of thing. 51:19 When I was a teenager, I worked up the courage, and if 51:23 you knew my mom, you'd know that it took courage to, you 51:26 had to work up courage, okay, I worked up the courage to lie 51:31 to my mom as a teenager. 51:33 And I hadn't ever. 51:35 >>JAMES: I had a mom like that. 51:36 >>TY: Yeah, and I lied to her about, I told her I was gonna 51:40 be out of our apartment door, you know, down about 10 51:44 apartment doors at Stan and Harold's house. 51:46 These were older guys who were friends of mine that used to 51:49 beat me up and then I became friends with them and they 51:52 stopped beating me up. 51:53 They were older and I said, that's where I'm going. 51:57 And we lived in a part of LA that was just very, very, very 52:02 rough. 52:03 I mean, we went to sleep listening to shootings going 52:05 on, there were drug deals being done out front, 52:08 prostitution, it was all happening out in front of our 52:12 apartment complex. 52:13 And I said, I'm going to Stan and Harold's house. 52:16 And she said, you're not going out to the front, and I said, 52:21 no. 52:23 And that's exactly where I was going, and I just looked at my 52:25 mom right in the eyes and I lied to her, I told her that I 52:27 was not going precisely where I was going, and a few hours 52:32 later, I came back, I walked in the door, and she said, so, 52:36 where were you? 52:38 And I said, I told you where I was, I was at Stan and 52:39 Harold's house. 52:41 And she said, that's interesting because I called 52:47 Stan and Harold's mom and you never showed up. 52:51 Boom, she reared back, she punched me square in the 52:54 middle of the face, you can call this child abuse, 52:56 whatever, don't judge my mom. 52:57 I was a teenager, I was taller than her at this point. 53:00 She wasn't gonna put me over her knee and spank me. 53:02 >>DAVID: So, she's gonna punch you in the head. 53:03 >>TY: Bam, she punched me in the middle of the face. 53:05 I hit the ground, she jumped on top of me, sitting on my 53:08 chest with both fists like this and said, don't you ever 53:12 lie to me again, and I vowed never to again, and I said, 53:17 mom, I'm sorry, I was crying, please, mom, forgive me, 53:22 forgive me, forgive me. 53:23 Forgive me. 53:25 I'm crying and she says, she's angry, you don't have to ask 53:30 me to forgive you, I forgave you before you ever walked in 53:34 the door. 53:36 She had already done it. 53:39 In her heart... 53:40 >>DAVID: Why did she punch you then? 53:41 [Laughter] 53:43 >>TY: Because she was pretty upset, she wanted to make an 53:46 impression on my young mind, never lie to me. 53:49 impression on my young mind, never lie to me. 53:51 >>JEFFERY: Why did God kick Adam and Eve out of the 53:55 Garden? 53:55 >>JAMES: Why does he chasten us? 53:57 >>TY: Now, I'm just saying that my mom's heart was 54:02 already there. 54:04 Okay, God's heart is already there. 54:06 Where's there? 54:08 In this place called forgiveness, this place called 54:10 grace, this place of unconditional love that is 54:15 foreign to our perception of God's character until we 54:19 encounter it in Christ. 54:21 When we see in Jesus, you know, Father, forgive them, 54:24 they don't know what they're doing. 54:27 It has a powerful, powerful impact on our response to God. 54:32 >>JAMES: I wanna tell you something interesting, too, go 54:33 ahead. 54:34 >>DAVID: I'll just be very quick. 54:35 We're low on time, so you go. 54:37 >>JAMES: I was just gonna say, I mentioned that comment that 54:41 because she loved him, and that's what my mom did, too. 54:44 My mom told me later she was afraid, being a single parent, 54:47 she was afraid that if she held back the physical, oh, 54:53 she'd slap me across the face without a second hesitation. 54:57 I was so afraid of her. 54:59 She told me that she was afraid that if she would've 55:01 held back, that I would grow up as a sissy or I would grow 55:03 up as a mama's boy or whatever. 55:05 Then, we moved to Hawaii when I was 11 and we lived with my 55:07 dad for 6 months. 55:09 And when my dad would go to get physical with me, she 55:11 would defend it, she would defend me. 55:13 Don't touch him, don't you lay a hand on him. 55:15 What I'm saying is... 55:17 >>TY: I can punch him, you can't. 55:18 >>JAMES: No, it wasn't that, it was that her mother's heart 55:21 was not wanting to physically touch me, you see what I'm 55:24 saying? 55:25 But she knew, she, in her mind, but I've gotta do this, 55:28 I love him and I gotta do this. 55:29 I can't let him, you know what I'm saying? 55:30 So, this, I think this is a picture of how God interacts 55:35 with us. 55:36 He's gotta figure out the best way to relate to us because of 55:40 his love, and sometimes, we don't get that. 55:44 >>TY: I just think my mom was low on emotional resources. 55:46 She didn't know how to deal with me. 55:48 [Laughter] 55:49 So, she punched me. 55:50 I think she could've come up with a different method, but 55:52 it worked anyway. 55:54 >>DAVID: You turned out alright. 55:55 >>TY: I just think it's incredible that forgiveness 55:58 precedes forgiveness, in a sense. 56:01 It's amazing that God is already there and then, it's 56:07 the very thing that draws us there with him. 56:10 That's what I think's going on. 56:13 [Music] 56:21 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-18