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>>TY: So, we've been working
our way through the Protestant
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reformation and we're at a
point in our discussion where
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we're dealing with the
five solas, which are the key
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teaching points that were
brought forth by the reformers
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and launched this
revolutionary movement.
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We've looked at sola sciptura,
we've looked at sola gracia,
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and now, sola
fida, or faith alone.
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So, David, you have a series
of questions that have been
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posed by a scholar
named Alistair McGrath.
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He is one of the definitive
scholars on the subject of
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justification by faith in
Christian theology and he's
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pretty much in a very simple
way, just distilled down the
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key questions that need
to be asked regarding to this
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subject.
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Take us through them.
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>>DAVID: Summarized the
big questions in 6 questions.
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The title of the book is
a history of the Christian
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doctrine of justification,
two volume set and considers as
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you said, the definitive work
on the historical development
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of the truth of
justification by faith.
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And these are the six
questions, he said, this is
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what it boiled down to in
the context of the Protestant
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reformation and the
Catholic response and then the
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Protestant response, et cetera.
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Number one, is justification
only extrinsic, judicial, in
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nature, or is there also an
intrinsic, or sanctifying work
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involved?
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Number two, what is the
relationship between faith and
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good works?
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Number three, does the
human have an active role in
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justification?
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Number four, how are
justification and the
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sacraments, such as Eucharist,
baptism, and penance related?
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Two more, number five, can
the believer know with certainty
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that he or she is justified?
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And then, finally, can
humans incline themselves toward
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justification, and if
so, is this inclination to be
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understood as meritorious?
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So, there's a lot there,
but the question is, what is the
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relationship between what
the human does and what God does
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in relationship to our
standing before God and the
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way that that's
accessed by faith?
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>>TY: I think these questions
really get to the heart of all
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the issues and we could jus
tone by one go through them,
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beginning with extrinsic
or intrinsic or both, maybe, I
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don't know, but language
that's been helpful for me,
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and this language is not in
the bible, but there's a lot
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of language that we use
that is not specifically in the
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bible, but describes biblical
concepts or biblical ideas,
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okay, so one thing that's been
helpful for me with regards to
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justification by faith
and salvation in general is to
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understand that there is
the objective dimension and then
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there is the
subjective dimension.
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This is what McGrath here
is articulating as extrinsic
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versus intrinsic.
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So, Romans chapter 3, if
you just look at this passage,
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Romans chapter 3, the apostle
Paul makes a statement that,
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to our western ears, to a
lot of people, anyway, sounds
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very, very strange.
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He speaks in chapter 23, verse
24 of being justified freely
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by God's grace through the
redemption that is, here's the
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language, the redemption
that is in Christ Jesus.
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language, the redemption
that is in Christ Jesus.
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So, here Paul locates
redemption outside of me
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before it's in me.
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Before I'm experiencing
anything with it, he's saying
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redemption is in Christ Jesus.
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It's right over there, in him,
in the historic life, death,
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resurrection, ascension of
Christ, there's something that
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is accomplished without
any contribution for me or any
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other human being.
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He just did it and one way
that's been helpful for me to
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understand is to pose
a hypothetical question.
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Hypothetical question is,
if everybody, hypothetically,
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were to refuse salvation,
refuse justification, say no
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to God's salvation,
would salvation still be an
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accomplished fact in Christ?
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Even if we all say no to it?
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And then, I follow up by
saying, even if we all say no
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to salvation, the fact
is, that an actual human, a
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specimen of the human race,
a member of the human race,
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right now, occupies the throne
of the universe at the right
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hand of the Father.
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And his name is Jesus.
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He's there, right now, even
if I say no, even if all of us
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say no.
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So, you can say, with
theological accuracy that
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salvation of humanity is
an accomplished fact in the
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person of Christ, and that's
the language Paul is using
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here.
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The redemption that is in
Christ Jesus before I ever say
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yes, no, maybe, anything to it.
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And I'm calling this objective.
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And then, that's the
thing that I'm responding to.
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>>JEFFERY: Do that again.
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So, salvation is an,
it's already, you said the
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salvation of human kind
is already accomplished right
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now.
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>>TY: Right now, in Christ.
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So, look at it like this,
did Jesus live a life of perfect
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relational
integrity, perfect love?
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That's what the law requires.
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Did Jesus live a
perfect life of love?
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The answer is yes.
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Did he do that in human nature?
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Yes.
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>>DAVID: Did he do
it in space and time?
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>>TY: Yes.
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And when Jesus died on the
cross, did he, in dying on the
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cross, did he go through
that death as a human being?
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Yes.
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Was he resurrected as much
of a human as when he, yes.
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When he ascended to heaven
and took the position of victory
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at the right hand of the
Father, does he retain his
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humanity?
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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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So, Paul comes along and uses
this very fascinating language
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where he says that we are,
you and I, Jeffrey, we are, I am
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crucified with Christ, so that
historic act somehow belongs
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to me, pertains
to me, applies to me.
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I'm crucified with Christ,
nevertheless I live, yet not
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I, but Christ lives in me
and the life which I now live, I
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live by the faith of the
Son of God who loved me and died
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for me, Galatians 2:20.
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So, his death somehow
has something to do with me
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corporately.
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Then, Paul comes along in
Ephesians and he says that we
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are and we're not, but we
are, seated, right now, we are
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seated in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus.
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There's some sense
in which I'm there.
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Well, how am I there?
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Well, in a representative sense.
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The same way that if an
ambassador for the United
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States has flown over to China
and is having discussions, we
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would say we, Americans,
are in, political conversations
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with China.
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Well, I'm not there,
you're not there, but our
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representative is there, he's
our representative for these
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political purposes.
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Yeah, so biblically speaking,
the bible thinks in corporate
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language.
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The bible thinks in terms
of the community more than in
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terms of the individual.
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>>DAVID: That's true,
that is absolutely true.
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>>JAMES: Which is
really interesting because we
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naturally tend to think
that way in times of war.
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Like, Iran, or someone's
hurting Americans in a certain
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country and all of America
says, hey, wait a minute,
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that's us.
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But we don't tend to think
of that just on a regular basis.
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And the thing about that, I
think, that's really cool is
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just that the bible informs
us that we're engaged in a war.
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We are engaged in a spiritual
conflict of great controversy
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between good and
evil, right and wrong.
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So, I like that whole idea
as it comes to us, because it
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speaks to us, if we will,
shift to war mentality, war
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thinking, it speaks to us the
way we talk and relate to our
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own country and our own
individuals in life itself.
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>>TY: So, there are ways
we understand corporate life.
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>>JAMES: That's
the way we think.
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>>DAVID: In the English
language, we have just one
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word for you,
plural or singular, you.
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And I can say you and it's
implied, the three of you, or
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you, James, where many
languages, most languages, I
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shouldn't say most, but many
languages have a distinction
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between you
singular and you plural.
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Right?
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Is that true in the Spanish?
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You have you singular and you
plural, or you have just you?
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>>TY: Even in English,
back east, they have you's guys.
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>>DAVID: Or
sometimes, we'll say y'all.
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Down south.
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In Australia, funnily
enough, they say you's.
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True story, they'll
say, are you's coming?
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So, that's like a room of
people, versus are you coming?
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Now, here's why I'm saying that.
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The Greek New Testament,
the writings of Paul are almost
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always in the plural version.
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Right?
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They're not in the singular
you, they're in the plural
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you's.
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So, the idea here is that
there's a community, God is
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saving a community, God is
redeeming a community, God is,
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this whole communal
thing that's happening, but the
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community starts, and I think
this is your point, Ty, it's
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not just that we're a
community and God is God, but
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that Jesus has made community,
sovereignly connected himself,
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not sovereign, that's not the
word I'm looking for, he is in
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solidarity
connected himself to us.
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So that if everybody
were to say no, to use your
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illustration, if the
whole human community down here
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said, no, no.
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Well, the human
representative, Jesus, who is
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verily man, the salvation,
the redemption is in him.
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>>JEFFERY: Is this then
what Paul was talking about in 2
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Corinthians 5, where he says
that if one died for all, then
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all died, that's' verse
14, and then, in verse 19, that
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God was in Christ,
reconciling the word to himself.
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>>TY: Same
concept, different language.
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>>JAMES: It's the same thing,
well, in a sense, it's the
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same thing he's saying in
John 3:16, for God so loved the
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world, that's the objective,
that whosoever believeth in
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him, we haven't gotten to that
yet, probably, but yeah, the
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objective, many times, they're
in the same verse, they follow
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each other, they connect,
and what we do, sometimes, is we
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disconnect them and one of our
greatest dangers, I think, not
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dangers, but one of the things
we've done more than anything
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else is emphasize the
subjective, disconnect it from
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the objective.
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>>TY: And it becomes a form
of legalism, where emotionally,
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even if a person can't
articulate it, they feel that
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the ownness is on me, to
get God's positive response.
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Well, the positive response
is already there in Christ, so
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I'm the responder, not him.
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>>JAMES: And the other extreme
is to separate the objective
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and lean towards universalism
with out that subjective.
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So, God loved the
world, everybody's gonna be.
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>>DAVID: So, unpack
the subjective then.
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So, the objective is the
redemption that is in Christ
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Jesus and the subjective
is the faith by which that's
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accessed, is that
what you're gonna say?
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>>TY: Yeah, and I think
that McGrath's question isn't, I
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mean, it's a good
question, but he's saying, is
00:11:57.75\00:11:59.91
justification extrinsic or
intrinsic and I think that I
00:11:59.91\00:12:08.49
would tend to say that
justification is extrinsic and
00:12:08.49\00:12:18.60
that there's a continuum.
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So, it's just one thing,
just goes straight over into the
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other thing experientially.
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So, objectively, salvation,
justification is accomplished
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fact in Christ, and now, I'm
responding to it, but I don't
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manufacture any new data.
00:12:33.65\00:12:38.39
I don't add anything, and
some people would look at the
00:12:38.39\00:12:42.32
distinction that he's made
and say, well, no it's never
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intrinsic because
that's a different word.
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That's sanctification.
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See, and I think
there's a truth to that as well.
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I think there's a sense in
which what we're saying is,
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lemme say it this way.
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That sanctification in a
sense, I don't know if you'll
00:13:01.21\00:13:05.21
agree with this,
this might not be good.
00:13:05.21\00:13:07.52
Sanctification may be
justification experienced.
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A continuation of justification.
00:13:15.69\00:13:18.19
>>DAVID: I
completely agree with that.
00:13:18.19\00:13:19.76
>>JEFFERY: But I don't
know about the justification.
00:13:19.76\00:13:21.63
I always viewed, with
the categories that we're
00:13:21.63\00:13:24.60
discussing, I would've been
inclined to say justification
00:13:24.60\00:13:27.84
is not objective, but
the subjective reality of
00:13:27.84\00:13:33.54
salvation.
00:13:33.54\00:13:36.41
So, justification.
00:13:36.41\00:13:37.98
So, you said, the question was
is justification objective or
00:13:37.98\00:13:41.92
subjective?
00:13:41.92\00:13:42.85
>>DAVID: No, is it
intrinsic or extrinsic.
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>>JEFFERY: So, those two
categories are different from
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objective, subjective?
00:13:45.72\00:13:47.06
I thought you were
using those parallels.
00:13:47.06\00:13:51.19
>>TY: I think they're the same.
00:13:51.19\00:13:52.46
>>JEFFERY: You do
think they're the same.
00:13:52.46\00:13:53.43
So, then would we
say justification is both
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objective and subjective?
00:13:56.50\00:13:57.87
>>TY: I would with explanation.
00:13:57.87\00:13:59.73
>>JEFFERY: So, then tell
me if this sounds wrong to say
00:13:59.73\00:14:04.27
justification is the
subjective part of salvation.
00:14:04.27\00:14:11.28
>>TY: I don't like that.
00:14:11.28\00:14:13.35
>>JEFFERY: Well, subjective,
objective, the fact that is a
00:14:13.35\00:14:17.45
fact in Christ, before...
00:14:17.45\00:14:20.89
>>TY: So, you're essentially
saying, you're saying is
00:14:20.89\00:14:23.46
justification always and
only experiential, never ever
00:14:23.46\00:14:27.93
objective and legal?
00:14:27.93\00:14:29.53
>>JEFFERY: No,
that's not what I'm saying.
00:14:29.53\00:14:31.80
>>TY: That's
what you were saying.
00:14:31.80\00:14:33.80
>>JEFFERY:
That's not what I meant.
00:14:33.80\00:14:35.80
>>TY: Yeah, so
take that off the table.
00:14:35.80\00:14:37.81
>>JEFFERY: Take that off the
table, I was just drawing the
00:14:37.81\00:14:40.01
distinction.
00:14:40.01\00:14:41.01
>>TY: So, McGrath
is thinking legal.
00:14:41.01\00:14:43.48
He's actually asking, is
there a legal dimension that has
00:14:43.48\00:14:46.95
nothing to do with
anything any human being does?
00:14:46.95\00:14:52.15
A legal pronouncement,
an imputed righteousness?
00:14:52.15\00:14:55.22
Of course, there is.
00:14:55.22\00:14:56.66
>>DAVID: And the key thing
here, the reason that we or
00:14:56.66\00:15:00.63
you or we all might've
been getting tripped up there is
00:15:00.63\00:15:04.57
that justification is a
part of the whole salvation
00:15:04.57\00:15:07.80
reality, but it is a
distinguishable part.
00:15:07.80\00:15:10.47
Justification is the means by
which we are declared right in
00:15:10.47\00:15:13.21
the sight of God.
00:15:13.21\00:15:14.51
There cannot be any
contribution that I am making
00:15:14.51\00:15:18.65
here.
00:15:18.65\00:15:19.65
>>JEFFERY:
Distinguish that from grace.
00:15:19.65\00:15:21.65
>>DAVID: What do you mean
distinguish it from grace?
00:15:21.65\00:15:23.65
It's by grace.
00:15:23.65\00:15:25.35
Right, the only way that I can
have a standing before God is
00:15:25.35\00:15:28.42
his gracious
disposition toward me.
00:15:28.42\00:15:30.53
And that is accessed by faith,
but as Ty said, it's already
00:15:30.53\00:15:35.03
there.
00:15:35.03\00:15:36.20
>>JEFFERY: So, we have grace,
we have faith, and we have
00:15:36.20\00:15:38.03
justification.
00:15:38.03\00:15:39.03
So, there's three
different categories.
00:15:39.03\00:15:41.07
>>DAVID: So, justification
is the declaration that I am
00:15:41.07\00:15:44.71
right before God, that I
have a standing of innocence, a
00:15:44.71\00:15:48.31
standing of
righteousness before him, right?
00:15:48.31\00:15:51.88
That's justification.
00:15:51.88\00:15:53.38
Just as if I'd never sinned.
00:15:53.38\00:15:55.22
>>JEFFERY: And that takes
place, that becomes a reality
00:15:55.22\00:15:57.49
when grace has
access through faith.
00:15:57.49\00:16:00.52
>>DAVID: Well, now, I don't
know what Ty and James would
00:16:00.52\00:16:03.36
say to that.
00:16:03.36\00:16:04.43
>>JEFFERY: How does that
become a reality without the
00:16:04.43\00:16:06.36
exercise of faith?
00:16:06.36\00:16:07.40
>>DAVID: Well, it
already is a reality.
00:16:07.40\00:16:09.36
This is getting back to
what we were talking about...
00:16:09.36\00:16:11.37
>>JEFFERY: Now, that's what
I was poking around at earlier.
00:16:11.37\00:16:13.37
>>JAMES: Well, we gotta
talk about the faith of Jesus in
00:16:13.37\00:16:15.37
that.
00:16:15.37\00:16:16.60
>>TY: Can I show you something
that might help in Isaiah 53?
00:16:16.60\00:16:19.74
Okay, so, you have to see
these words because they're
00:16:19.74\00:16:25.31
gonna throw us for a loop
because we don't notice this
00:16:25.31\00:16:28.72
usually.
00:16:28.72\00:16:29.82
Maybe you have noticed
this, I didn't for a long time.
00:16:29.82\00:16:32.19
And then, suddenly, it dawned
on me, okay, look at verse 6,
00:16:32.19\00:16:36.26
Isaiah 53, verse 6, all we,
like sheep, have gone astray,
00:16:36.26\00:16:39.89
universal or not?
00:16:39.89\00:16:41.43
>>JAMES: Yep.
00:16:41.43\00:16:42.70
>>TY: We have turned
everyone to his own way, still
00:16:42.70\00:16:45.77
universal, and the Lord has
laid on him the iniquity of us
00:16:45.77\00:16:50.37
all.
00:16:50.37\00:16:51.01
>>DAVID: Yes.
00:16:51.01\00:16:51.77
>>TY: Jesus is
bearing whose sin?
00:16:51.77\00:16:53.51
All sin.
00:16:53.51\00:16:55.68
Now, go down to verse 11.
00:16:55.68\00:16:57.65
He shall see the travail of
his soul, that is, the Father
00:16:57.65\00:17:01.15
shall see the travail or the
labor of the soul of Jesus and
00:17:01.15\00:17:05.72
be satisfied by his knowledge,
my righteous servant shall
00:17:05.72\00:17:10.56
justify the many, which is
a term, I'll defend this, for
00:17:10.56\00:17:16.56
all.
00:17:16.56\00:17:17.57
He shall justify the many.
00:17:17.57\00:17:18.97
Now, watch this, for he
shall bear their iniquities.
00:17:18.97\00:17:21.94
Here's my question.
00:17:21.94\00:17:23.71
In verse 11, in verse 11,
those who are justified are
00:17:23.71\00:17:32.11
those whose sins or
iniquities he bears.
00:17:32.11\00:17:35.78
And in verse 6, those whose
iniquities he bears are all.
00:17:35.78\00:17:42.52
Do I need to
repeat that or does that.
00:17:42.52\00:17:44.39
>>DAVID: I got it,
I'm just ruminating on it.
00:17:44.39\00:17:47.76
>>TY: Okay, so
there's a progression.
00:17:47.76\00:17:49.96
So, we tend to think so much
in terms of ourselves and our
00:17:49.96\00:17:55.27
experience that we lose fact
of the narrative of scripture
00:17:55.27\00:17:58.87
and the narrative that is
an accomplished storyline in
00:17:58.87\00:18:01.68
Christ.
00:18:01.68\00:18:02.88
And what this is saying to
us, Isaiah 53, it's saying that
00:18:02.88\00:18:06.18
the Messiah, the Messiah is
going to go through the awful
00:18:06.18\00:18:10.25
ordeal of bearing human
sin, universally, and in doing
00:18:10.25\00:18:16.02
that, he's going to give a
new standing to the human race
00:18:16.02\00:18:18.46
that they can live out of.
00:18:18.46\00:18:19.63
He's basically saying, I'm
gonna forge a new identity for
00:18:19.63\00:18:24.07
you.
00:18:24.07\00:18:25.17
And you can relate to the
first Adam if you want to.
00:18:25.17\00:18:27.87
You can keep viewing yourself
as a sinner who is guilty and
00:18:27.87\00:18:34.74
unrighteous, or you can
identify by faith with a new
00:18:34.74\00:18:38.65
narrative that I'm casting
for you and in so doing, in so
00:18:38.65\00:18:43.62
doing, my experience can
become yours subjectively.
00:18:43.62\00:18:47.26
But before it's ever
yours subjectively, it's in me,
00:18:47.26\00:18:50.49
before it's ever
yours subjectively, i.e.
00:18:50.49\00:18:55.06
experientially, it belongs
to me objectively as a series of
00:18:55.06\00:18:59.50
facts that I worked out.
00:18:59.50\00:19:01.54
facts that I worked out.
00:19:01.54\00:19:02.74
I wrote a story
do you believe it?
00:19:03.04\00:19:05.87
>>DAVID: Which is why, when
you quote Galatians 2:20, you
00:19:05.87\00:19:09.91
see there the objective
reality, historical reality
00:19:09.91\00:19:13.18
has happened, he was crucified
in historical event, Paul
00:19:13.18\00:19:16.22
says, I'm now entering
in, experientially to that, I
00:19:16.22\00:19:20.06
believe that story.
00:19:20.06\00:19:21.06
I accept that narrative.
00:19:21.06\00:19:22.16
So, it's no longer I who
live but Christ that's in me.
00:19:22.16\00:19:25.03
>>JEFFERY: And then,
therefore, you're justified.
00:19:25.03\00:19:27.03
At that moment, in that
experiential reality, you are
00:19:27.03\00:19:29.43
now justified.
00:19:29.43\00:19:30.57
>>TY: That's true, but the
justification existed before
00:19:30.57\00:19:34.37
you did that.
00:19:34.37\00:19:35.37
>>JAMES:
Objectively, you're justified.
00:19:35.37\00:19:37.37
>>DAVID: Yeah,
we're onto it there.
00:19:37.37\00:19:39.37
>>JEFFERY: You
get what I'm saying?
00:19:39.37\00:19:41.38
You understand where I'm poking?
00:19:41.38\00:19:43.38
>>DAVID: I see your
scalpel and it's good.
00:19:43.38\00:19:46.05
I like that very precise...
00:19:46.05\00:19:47.95
>>TY: It's a difficult subject
because the moment you use the
00:19:47.95\00:19:52.19
word justification, people
think that word only applies
00:19:52.19\00:19:55.42
to me and my experience,
subjectively, and if that's
00:19:55.42\00:19:59.63
the case, to suggest, as
Isaiah 53 plainly says, that
00:19:59.63\00:20:05.43
he bore sin and thereby
justified the many, to say
00:20:05.43\00:20:09.00
that, some people are
gonna hear that as universalism.
00:20:09.00\00:20:12.37
They're gonna say, okay, then
you're saying that everybody's
00:20:12.37\00:20:15.74
saved, but that's
not what it's saying.
00:20:15.74\00:20:18.45
There is no such thing as an
experiential universalism, but
00:20:18.45\00:20:23.28
there is such a thing as
an objective universalism.
00:20:23.28\00:20:25.92
>>DAVID: So, when we come
back, can we take a look at
00:20:25.92\00:20:28.46
Romans 5, then?
00:20:28.46\00:20:29.56
In light of this?
00:20:29.56\00:20:30.56
Romans 5 sort of
12 and beyond there?
00:20:30.56\00:20:32.86
>>TY: Take a
break, come on back.
00:20:32.86\00:20:34.83
[Music]
00:20:34.83\00:20:48.14
>>This is the story of
Niyima, who took a bus to the
00:20:48.14\00:20:51.85
doctor and found a piece of
paper with words of hope about
00:20:51.85\00:20:56.65
Jesus, which was left by a
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00:20:56.65\00:21:00.99
box that came from a
truck which drove in from Durban
00:21:00.99\00:21:04.86
where a ship was docked
that sailed from Seattle, loaded
00:21:04.86\00:21:09.40
with containers stacked
high with millions of tracts,
00:21:09.40\00:21:13.60
trucked in from the
Light Bearers Publishing House,
00:21:13.60\00:21:16.67
where more than 600 million
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00:21:16.67\00:21:20.34
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00:21:20.34\00:21:23.98
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00:22:07.56\00:22:12.53
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[Music]
00:23:01.38\00:23:07.62
>>TY: So, we were looking
at Isaiah 53 and James, right
00:23:07.62\00:23:10.65
when we took that break, he
drove us back to verse 4, and
00:23:10.65\00:23:13.92
I think you
should bring that, James.
00:23:13.92\00:23:15.92
>>JAMES: Well, this is another
key verse in the dialogue that
00:23:15.92\00:23:19.19
you were bringing forth
from this scripture and that is
00:23:19.19\00:23:22.30
that this is universal in
objective sense, so verse 4
00:23:22.30\00:23:25.70
says, and I wanna read it
in the context of verse 3, he's
00:23:25.70\00:23:28.14
despised and rejected by
man and a man of sorrows and
00:23:28.14\00:23:30.14
acquainted with grief, we hid,
as it were, faces from him, he
00:23:30.14\00:23:33.41
was despised, and
we esteemed him not.
00:23:33.41\00:23:35.68
Surely he hath born
our grief's and carried our
00:23:35.68\00:23:38.55
sorrows.
00:23:38.55\00:23:39.78
That word born there is nasa,
and that is used, N-A-S-A, and
00:23:39.78\00:23:42.92
that word is used consistently
in the Old Testament, and even
00:23:42.92\00:23:47.06
connects in the New Testament,
and it is consistently used in
00:23:47.06\00:23:52.53
the form of forgive, he
has forgiven, David talks about
00:23:52.53\00:23:56.67
it, and so, in an objective
sense, of course, we all know
00:23:56.67\00:24:01.34
this, he's forgiven
all the sins and all the
00:24:01.34\00:24:03.51
transgressions of every single
human being on planet earth.
00:24:03.51\00:24:05.67
>>DAVID: Not
imputing their trespasses.
00:24:05.67\00:24:07.68
>>JAMES: We do not go to God
and ask for forgiveness today
00:24:07.68\00:24:10.55
and then, God says, okay,
son, go down to earth, get
00:24:10.55\00:24:13.95
sacrificed, no, he dips into
the already accomplished, and
00:24:13.95\00:24:20.26
for all, 7 times Paul
emphasized that in Hebrews
00:24:20.26\00:24:22.82
7-10, once and for all, once
and for all, once and of all,
00:24:22.82\00:24:25.96
once and for all.
00:24:25.96\00:24:26.90
>>DAVID: That's a
good way to say it.
00:24:26.90\00:24:28.03
When a sinner comes, when
you and I come and we ask for
00:24:28.03\00:24:30.90
forgiveness, he doesn't have
to go create a new thing, he
00:24:30.90\00:24:35.20
dips into the reservoir of
grace and of salvational reality
00:24:35.20\00:24:39.91
that's already
existed in Christ.
00:24:39.91\00:24:41.81
>>JAMES: And this is a
vital reformation truth.
00:24:41.81\00:24:44.38
When it comes to the mass,
when it comes to understanding
00:24:44.38\00:24:46.01
what's taking place.
00:24:46.01\00:24:47.22
Well, because, in the mass,
transubstantiation is the idea
00:24:47.22\00:24:56.32
that we are now taking
Christ and breaking his body and
00:24:56.32\00:24:59.43
spilling his blood
again as a sacrifice.
00:24:59.43\00:25:02.46
>>DAVID: When that goes
into the mouth, it changes
00:25:02.46\00:25:04.57
substance.
00:25:04.57\00:25:06.47
It becomes the literal
substantive flesh and the
00:25:06.47\00:25:09.57
literal
substantive blood of Jesus.
00:25:09.57\00:25:12.27
And that's a sacrament.
00:25:12.27\00:25:14.21
>>JAMES: So, when I went back
to England as a young man and
00:25:14.21\00:25:16.64
I was confronted with my
priest, and he said to me, how
00:25:16.64\00:25:19.31
are you gonna get
forgiveness if you don't come to
00:25:19.31\00:25:21.32
confession and you
don't come to the mass?
00:25:21.32\00:25:23.32
>>DAVID: Because, now, this
goes back to something I said
00:25:23.32\00:25:25.32
in a previous session, and
that is, is the role of the
00:25:25.32\00:25:27.72
church primarily proclamational?
00:25:27.72\00:25:29.72
We have something to say
and someone to make famous?
00:25:29.72\00:25:32.26
Or is it salvation, mediatorial?
00:25:32.26\00:25:34.73
We, hey, how are you,
James, how are you gonna get
00:25:34.73\00:25:38.00
forgiveness?
00:25:38.00\00:25:39.20
You have to come here to the
dispensary and you have to get
00:25:39.20\00:25:42.37
it because Jesus is being
mass sacrificed again and again,
00:25:42.37\00:25:47.28
and again and again, versus
an accomplished, accomplished,
00:25:47.28\00:25:51.28
that's the operative
word, done, period, full stop,
00:25:51.28\00:25:54.95
accomplished reality into
which we dip to pull out of
00:25:54.95\00:25:59.72
the infinite
reservoir of availability.
00:25:59.72\00:26:02.22
>>TY: I love all that and
that just opens my heart to the
00:26:02.22\00:26:06.53
Lord.
00:26:06.53\00:26:07.66
>>JAMES: That's why I think
it's so important for us to
00:26:07.66\00:26:09.60
recognize how
everything's connected together.
00:26:09.60\00:26:11.40
As we get back into this now,
just to note that what we're
00:26:11.40\00:26:15.47
talking about in this program
is an extension of what we
00:26:15.47\00:26:17.94
talked about in
the last program.
00:26:17.94\00:26:19.94
We talked in the last program
about, what was the subject
00:26:19.94\00:26:21.94
matter again?
00:26:21.94\00:26:22.94
Yeah, sola gracia.
00:26:22.94\00:26:23.98
In Ephesians, grace is
connected to faith, right?
00:26:23.98\00:26:30.39
We're talking about faith now.
00:26:30.39\00:26:31.69
In Romans, faith is connected
to the scripture, right?
00:26:31.69\00:26:35.29
Romans 10:17 says, faith comes
by hearing and hearing by the
00:26:35.29\00:26:38.16
word of God.
00:26:38.16\00:26:39.16
You see what I'm saying?
00:26:39.16\00:26:40.16
So, all of these
are connected together.
00:26:40.16\00:26:42.13
Everything, what we're
doing is we're just allowing the
00:26:42.13\00:26:44.60
bible to show us how it's
all interconnected together.
00:26:44.60\00:26:47.30
My wife is an RDN,
she's a registered dietary
00:26:47.30\00:26:50.51
nutritionist.
00:26:50.51\00:26:51.71
And her big thing right now
is that health, physical health
00:26:51.71\00:26:56.81
is not compartmentalized.
00:26:56.81\00:26:58.48
You don't have, you know, your
kidneys are one thing and your
00:26:58.48\00:27:01.15
blood's another thing and
your, no, it's all, you're all
00:27:01.15\00:27:03.69
one, and
everything's interconnected.
00:27:03.69\00:27:05.69
Everything in your
body interacts and affects
00:27:05.69\00:27:09.29
everything else.
00:27:09.29\00:27:10.46
Yes, mind, body, the whole
thing, and it's the same with
00:27:10.46\00:27:13.26
the bible.
00:27:13.26\00:27:14.36
>>DAVID: You probably know
this, but the word health is
00:27:14.36\00:27:16.23
basically just a sort of
modernized sloppy version of
00:27:16.23\00:27:18.67
whole, or wholth.
00:27:18.67\00:27:20.97
The whole, we say
holistic nowadays.
00:27:20.97\00:27:24.24
So, lemme read this.
00:27:24.24\00:27:25.64
In response to the Protestant
reformation, we'll deal with
00:27:25.64\00:27:27.81
this in greater detail in
the future, and I do want to get
00:27:27.81\00:27:30.21
to Romans 5, by the way.
00:27:30.21\00:27:31.38
The Catholic church convened
in sort of 1545, the council
00:27:31.38\00:27:37.99
of Trent.
00:27:37.99\00:27:39.09
It would last 18 years
and we'll go into this in more
00:27:39.09\00:27:40.99
detail, I think, in a future
lesson, but one of the things
00:27:40.99\00:27:43.49
that they addressed
specifically was a response,
00:27:43.49\00:27:46.36
and they had a series of
responses, pronouncements
00:27:46.36\00:27:48.43
against the Protestant
understanding of faith.
00:27:48.43\00:27:52.50
We're talking here about
sola fida, so listen to this,
00:27:52.50\00:27:54.50
here's one of them.
00:27:54.50\00:27:56.97
If anyone says that the sinner
is justified by faith alone,
00:27:56.97\00:28:01.38
meaning that nothing else is
required to cooperate in order
00:28:01.38\00:28:04.85
to obtain the grace of
justification and that it is
00:28:04.85\00:28:09.68
not necessary in any way that
he be prepared and disposed by
00:28:09.68\00:28:13.89
the action of his own
will, let him be anathema, or
00:28:13.89\00:28:17.73
cursed.
00:28:17.73\00:28:18.69
>>TY: They're
basically quoting the Protestant
00:28:18.69\00:28:20.76
reformer.
00:28:20.76\00:28:21.73
If anyone says,
they're quoting it.
00:28:21.73\00:28:23.73
>>DAVID: If anyone says
what they're saying, and so you
00:28:23.73\00:28:25.73
have this whole thing
about predisposition, are we
00:28:25.73\00:28:28.24
predisposed, and the answer
is, yes, we are predisposed by
00:28:28.24\00:28:31.74
prevenient grace,
but check this out.
00:28:31.74\00:28:33.94
>>JAMES: But Calvin
didn't believe that.
00:28:33.94\00:28:35.94
>>DAVID: Yes, of course,
I'm speaking as we as Armenians.
00:28:35.94\00:28:38.15
This is my point.
00:28:38.15\00:28:39.71
We are predisposed in the
sense that by the spirit, by
00:28:39.71\00:28:42.25
grace, that's true, but
that all happened prior to our
00:28:42.25\00:28:46.55
predisposition.
00:28:46.55\00:28:48.52
We're not, our predisposition
doesn't create something.
00:28:48.52\00:28:51.46
Our desire for, that's an
accomplished reality in Jesus.
00:28:51.46\00:28:55.53
So, we can say, so I guess
we're anathema by the council
00:28:55.53\00:28:59.10
of Trent's standards.
00:28:59.10\00:29:00.57
We can say that that is
accessed by faith alone,
00:29:00.57\00:29:05.34
because if there's any
other way, if it's faith plus 50
00:29:05.34\00:29:08.31
push ups, right?
00:29:08.31\00:29:10.78
Then, okay, now I'm
making some contribution.
00:29:10.78\00:29:15.25
Now, I'm, remember that last
lesson we had there, or that
00:29:15.25\00:29:19.09
last session we
had, I'm making a claim.
00:29:19.09\00:29:23.06
>>JAMES: I do think, though,
it's important to understand
00:29:23.06\00:29:25.66
this point because Arminius
is not alive at this time.
00:29:25.66\00:29:30.83
His doctrine is
not being taught.
00:29:30.83\00:29:33.17
In other words, he's coming,
he's 4 years old when Calvin
00:29:33.17\00:29:36.74
is, Calvin's contemporary
with, yeah, with Luther and
00:29:36.74\00:29:41.14
with the council of Trent.
00:29:41.14\00:29:42.78
>>DAVID: No, no, no, he is
alive, this is 15, so, Luther
00:29:42.78\00:29:45.31
dies 2 months after the
council of Trent is convened,
00:29:45.31\00:29:47.98
1545, he dies in 1546.
00:29:47.98\00:29:50.12
So, he is alive.
00:29:50.12\00:29:51.32
>>JAMES: Okay, but I'm
talking about Arminius.
00:29:51.32\00:29:53.36
>>DAVID: Yeah, he's alive.
00:29:53.36\00:29:54.69
>>JAMES: He is born
in, what year is he born?
00:29:54.69\00:29:57.93
>>DAVID: I don't know, I wrote
down the dates earlier, but
00:29:57.93\00:29:59.89
it's, he's born in 1560.
00:29:59.89\00:30:03.60
And that's the last 18 years,
beginning in 1545, so he's
00:30:03.60\00:30:06.90
alive.
00:30:06.90\00:30:07.97
>>JAMES: He's born in 1560.
00:30:07.97\00:30:10.07
Okay, so what I'm saying
is, is that when they say this,
00:30:10.07\00:30:14.04
he's not teaching doctrine.
00:30:14.04\00:30:15.54
Arminius is not
teaching doctrine.
00:30:15.54\00:30:16.88
They haven't heard him yet.
00:30:16.88\00:30:18.11
What they're hearing is Calvin
and what Calvin is saying is,
00:30:18.11\00:30:20.48
there's no prevenient grace,
and they're dealing with that,
00:30:20.48\00:30:24.79
because actually, in one
of their council of Trent
00:30:24.79\00:30:27.69
doctrines, they do say there
is a prevenient grace, they're
00:30:27.69\00:30:30.46
leaning toward that.
00:30:30.46\00:30:31.43
>>TY: But it's
meritorious in their framing.
00:30:31.43\00:30:33.46
>>JAMES: In their framing,
it's meritorious, but it's
00:30:33.46\00:30:35.43
prevenient, if you know what
I'm saying, whereas Calvin was
00:30:35.43\00:30:37.43
not in, so, they're dealing
with Calvin and Arminius comes
00:30:37.43\00:30:39.90
along and so, this is
what's so amazing about the
00:30:39.90\00:30:41.90
reformation is you've got this
back and forth thing going on
00:30:41.90\00:30:45.74
even within Catholicism,
'cause a lot of, you know,
00:30:45.74\00:30:48.41
these reformers
are all Catholic.
00:30:48.41\00:30:50.71
I mean, but they're Catholic
to begin with, so, as they
00:30:50.71\00:30:54.35
begin, they're trying to sort
through, what's going on with
00:30:54.35\00:30:57.12
our church?
00:30:57.12\00:30:57.92
How is this all working out?
00:30:57.92\00:30:59.19
And they're not seeing
perfection 'cause sometimes,
00:30:59.19\00:31:00.42
they respond, you know, in
a very strong way and then we
00:31:00.42\00:31:03.79
kinda bring it around a little
bit, and so, I guess the point
00:31:03.79\00:31:07.13
I'm trying to make is this.
00:31:07.13\00:31:09.83
I had a friend, and you
know the story, Catholics aren't
00:31:09.83\00:31:12.33
wrong on
everything, and it's true.
00:31:12.33\00:31:14.34
There are some aspects of
total depravity, there are
00:31:14.34\00:31:17.17
some aspects of prevenient
grace, there are some areas
00:31:17.17\00:31:19.47
here where what they're saying
is true and yet, the whole
00:31:19.47\00:31:24.88
thing isn't there, if
you know what I'm saying.
00:31:24.88\00:31:26.88
So, if you read the statement
again, it talks about, what
00:31:26.88\00:31:30.52
does it say, it
says something about.
00:31:30.52\00:31:32.52
>>DAVID: If anyone says
that the sinner is justified by
00:31:32.52\00:31:34.52
faith alone, meaning that
nothing else is required to
00:31:34.52\00:31:36.52
cooperate in order to obtain
the grace of justification and
00:31:36.52\00:31:39.26
that it is not necessary
in any way that he be prepared
00:31:39.26\00:31:41.70
and disposed by the action
of his own will, let him be
00:31:41.70\00:31:44.10
anathema.
00:31:44.10\00:31:45.07
>>JAMES: Okay, yeah,
no, I was wrong on that.
00:31:45.07\00:31:47.10
You've got, right on,
okay, your thoughts on that.
00:31:47.10\00:31:49.97
But all I'm saying is in
a couple other statements,
00:31:49.97\00:31:52.41
Catholics do
affirm prevenient grace.
00:31:52.41\00:31:55.08
>>DAVID: But, and you are
raising kind of an interesting
00:31:55.08\00:31:58.85
point here, that is actually
helpful to me and that is that
00:31:58.85\00:32:02.42
there was push.
00:32:02.42\00:32:03.42
Here's what's happening.
00:32:03.42\00:32:05.99
In response to the Protestant
reformation, when the council
00:32:05.99\00:32:08.16
of Trent convenes, beginning
in 1545, they're like, I mean,
00:32:08.16\00:32:11.16
they're circling wagons, right?
00:32:11.16\00:32:13.09
I mean, they're like, hey,
we gotta clarify because here
00:32:13.09\00:32:16.03
come all of these critiques
and pamphlets are being
00:32:16.03\00:32:18.13
circulated and we need to
solidify what it is that we
00:32:18.13\00:32:22.64
believe, and rather than
saying, as some of the earlier
00:32:22.64\00:32:25.47
reformers had hoped,
hey, maybe we'll get together,
00:32:25.47\00:32:28.94
maybe we'll talk this out,
maybe we'll have a Table Talk,
00:32:28.94\00:32:31.15
and we'll all have a
meeting of the minds.
00:32:31.15\00:32:33.21
The problem is, is
that ship has sailed, right?
00:32:33.21\00:32:35.92
Because now, the Protestants
are so far, they're so
00:32:35.92\00:32:39.42
galvanized in what they
believe that when the council
00:32:39.42\00:32:42.89
of Trent meets, they
don't, there's not this like
00:32:42.89\00:32:45.56
reformatory spirit in the
sense of conciliation with the
00:32:45.56\00:32:48.26
Protestants.
00:32:48.26\00:32:49.46
They're' doubling down on
what they have historically, and
00:32:49.46\00:32:52.70
that means they're cursed.
00:32:52.70\00:32:54.24
They say, no, no, no, no,
if you believe what they're
00:32:54.24\00:32:57.27
saying, and they're being very
precise, I mean, the precision
00:32:57.27\00:32:59.87
is phenomenal in
the council of Trent.
00:32:59.87\00:33:01.94
If you believe
what they're saying.
00:33:01.94\00:33:05.65
Now, somebody did make the
point, and it's important to
00:33:05.65\00:33:08.55
recognize that when the
word anathema was said, this was
00:33:08.55\00:33:11.35
not an absolute, you
know, excommunication, you know,
00:33:11.35\00:33:13.76
irrevocable, what they
were saying was, you need to get
00:33:13.76\00:33:16.26
right.
00:33:16.26\00:33:17.86
You're under censor,
you need to figure that out.
00:33:17.86\00:33:21.83
But the Protestant response,
you're right, the Protestant
00:33:21.83\00:33:23.70
response is, okay, so the
council of Trent says, now, we
00:33:23.70\00:33:26.03
say, and then,
that divide just gets...
00:33:26.03\00:33:29.77
Because, in fairness, because
of the structure and the way
00:33:29.77\00:33:33.78
that the medieval church
worked, and the whole idea of
00:33:33.78\00:33:37.18
that God was speaking
infallibly and definitively
00:33:37.18\00:33:41.52
through the church and its
various dogmas, the Catholic
00:33:41.52\00:33:45.12
church doesn't have a lot
of wiggle room to go back on
00:33:45.12\00:33:48.06
things, because you have
all of these decrees and all of
00:33:48.06\00:33:49.92
these, how do you go,
you know, we were wrong.
00:33:49.92\00:33:52.19
>>TY: The doctrine of
infallibility doesn't allow
00:33:52.19\00:33:53.93
for it.
00:33:53.93\00:33:55.13
>>DAVID: But that doesn't yet
exist, papal infallibility is
00:33:55.13\00:33:56.10
yet future.
00:33:56.10\00:33:57.10
>>JEFFERY: You would
still lose credibility by
00:33:57.10\00:33:58.53
backtracking.
00:33:58.53\00:33:59.70
>>DAVID: Exactly, you still
have authoritative councils,
00:33:59.70\00:34:02.20
authoritative traditions
and so, it's not like they can
00:34:02.20\00:34:05.54
extend the hand, the olive
branch and say, okay, we'll
00:34:05.54\00:34:08.14
meet you halfway.
00:34:08.14\00:34:09.24
Now, the Protestants
wouldn't have done that anyway.
00:34:09.24\00:34:10.48
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, but the very
thing at stake is the church's
00:34:10.48\00:34:11.78
authority, so any
concession would just...
00:34:11.78\00:34:16.82
>>DAVID: Which is why they
had to double down, they had to
00:34:16.82\00:34:19.65
say, cursed, cursed, cursed.
00:34:19.65\00:34:22.76
It's not gonna work.
00:34:22.76\00:34:23.93
>>TY: That pretty much
brings us logically to McGrath's
00:34:23.93\00:34:28.26
second question, is
justification by faith and
00:34:28.26\00:34:31.90
works?
00:34:31.90\00:34:32.63
Is that the question?
00:34:32.63\00:34:33.74
What is the relationship
between faith and, okay, what
00:34:33.74\00:34:35.94
is the relationship
between faith and good works?
00:34:35.94\00:34:39.64
>>JEFFERY: Whenever we
started reading the scriptures,
00:34:39.64\00:34:41.98
somebody shared an
illustration with me that I
00:34:41.98\00:34:44.85
wonder how you
guys feel about it.
00:34:44.85\00:34:47.15
They said, think of being
in a boat and you have two, you
00:34:47.15\00:34:52.59
know, two hands to row,
one hand is faith, one hand is
00:34:52.59\00:34:57.19
works.
00:34:57.19\00:34:58.83
>>TY: Yeah, that's heresy.
00:34:58.83\00:35:00.16
Let that be anathema.
00:35:00.16\00:35:01.30
[Laughter]
00:35:01.30\00:35:03.16
>>DAVID: I was just thinking,
I'm gonna disagree with what
00:35:03.16\00:35:06.17
he's saying.
00:35:06.17\00:35:08.70
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, go
ahead, Jeffrey, I'm sorry.
00:35:08.70\00:35:11.71
>>JEFFERY: Now, I'm
offended, forget it.
00:35:11.71\00:35:14.54
>>DAVID: No, no, no, no.
00:35:14.54\00:35:16.28
>>JEFFERY: This is not
what I believe, but I wanna say
00:35:16.28\00:35:19.85
something that'll
get you guys upset.
00:35:19.85\00:35:21.55
>>TY: It depends on where
this boat is going and what it's
00:35:21.55\00:35:23.79
doing.
00:35:23.79\00:35:24.82
If you're saying that
this boat is rowing toward
00:35:24.82\00:35:29.39
damnation, the
illustration works.
00:35:29.39\00:35:31.19
If this boat is rowing
toward salvation, you would
00:35:31.19\00:35:34.93
essentially be saying
salvation is by faith and
00:35:34.93\00:35:38.43
works.
00:35:38.43\00:35:39.50
No, it's not a
good illustration.
00:35:39.50\00:35:41.14
>>JEFFERY: But, if you
only row one side, you're just
00:35:41.14\00:35:44.71
gonna go is circles.
00:35:44.71\00:35:47.34
>>DAVID: You're trying
to defend this illustration.
00:35:47.34\00:35:49.31
>>TY: The
illustration doesn't work.
00:35:49.31\00:35:51.21
>>DAVID: Have you ever
actually been in a boat?
00:35:51.21\00:35:54.08
Have you ever
actually rowed a boat.
00:35:54.08\00:35:55.68
>>JEFFERY: I did
actually, recently.
00:35:55.68\00:35:58.32
>>DAVID: You see how that works?
00:35:58.32\00:36:03.56
This side, then this
side, and you go straight.
00:36:03.56\00:36:05.66
One paddle.
00:36:05.66\00:36:06.83
>>TY: Here's one for you,
how's the relationship between
00:36:06.83\00:36:10.33
faith and works/ It's not
a row boat, it's a speedboat,
00:36:10.33\00:36:15.17
it's a motorboat and I'll
tell you why, because Galatians
00:36:15.17\00:36:17.87
chapter 5, verses 5 and 6
says, we eagerly wait for the
00:36:17.87\00:36:22.34
hope of righteousness by
faith, and then, he says, in
00:36:22.34\00:36:25.98
verse 6, faith
that works by love.
00:36:25.98\00:36:30.45
And the word works there is
energeo, energy in the Greek.
00:36:30.45\00:36:35.09
So, he literally says,
righteousness is by faith and
00:36:35.09\00:36:37.09
faith is energized or
propelled or powered or
00:36:37.09\00:36:41.10
speedboat illustration,
just fits right there perfectly.
00:36:41.10\00:36:44.70
So, the point is that we
can't say with accuracy that
00:36:44.70\00:36:50.97
salvation is by faith
and works, we can say that
00:36:50.97\00:36:54.38
salvation is by
faith that works.
00:36:54.38\00:36:58.01
That would.
00:36:58.01\00:36:59.08
>>DAVID: Yeah,
I'm cool with that.
00:36:59.08\00:37:00.28
>>JEFFERY: That's what I
was trying to lead you to say.
00:37:00.28\00:37:02.85
>>DAVID: Well
done, Jeffrey, well done.
00:37:02.85\00:37:05.92
>>JEFFERY: I was trying to
set you up to arrive to that
00:37:05.92\00:37:07.86
conclusion.
00:37:07.86\00:37:09.02
>>DAVID: So, here's how I've
said this in the past, faith
00:37:09.02\00:37:11.79
and works are not incompatible.
00:37:11.79\00:37:14.83
But grace and works are.
00:37:14.83\00:37:15.86
So, grace and works, we
discussed that last time,
00:37:15.86\00:37:20.00
right, you with me?
00:37:20.00\00:37:21.00
>>JEFFERY: I got
something, keep going.
00:37:21.00\00:37:23.00
>>DAVID: Okay.
00:37:23.00\00:37:24.01
>>TY: You gonna
lead us somewhere again?
00:37:24.01\00:37:26.01
>>JEFFERY: Keep
going, keep going.
00:37:26.01\00:37:28.01
>>DAVID: So, grace and
works, incompatible, mutually
00:37:28.01\00:37:30.01
exclusive, square circle,
they're different things.
00:37:30.01\00:37:32.01
Faith and works, not
incompatible, but when it
00:37:32.01\00:37:34.02
comes to salvation, like,
for example, if you just get rid
00:37:34.02\00:37:36.65
of the salvation part, we
could say, my wife and I, we
00:37:36.65\00:37:39.85
have a relationship of
love for one another, we have a
00:37:39.85\00:37:41.86
relationship of trust
with one another, we have a
00:37:41.86\00:37:43.86
relationship of faith in
one another and that then causes
00:37:43.86\00:37:46.96
us to behave in ways that
are mutually beneficial, right?
00:37:46.96\00:37:49.90
So, there's no antipathy,
there's no hatred between
00:37:49.90\00:37:52.63
faith and works and any faith
based relationship, certainly
00:37:52.63\00:37:58.24
not with God.
00:37:58.24\00:37:59.37
But the line that we cannot
cross is to say that those
00:37:59.37\00:38:03.68
works of faith that we are
doing, whether spirit inspired
00:38:03.68\00:38:06.85
or not, in any way contribute
to the data, to the fact, the
00:38:06.85\00:38:13.99
redemption that is in Jesus.
00:38:13.99\00:38:16.29
>>JEFFERY: Okay, okay, true
or false, this statement, faith
00:38:16.29\00:38:21.13
is not opposed to effort,
it is opposed to earning.
00:38:21.13\00:38:27.14
is not opposed to effort,
it is opposed to earning.
00:38:27.14\00:38:28.90
True or false?
00:38:28.90\00:38:30.07
>>DAVID: That is by far the
longest silence we have ever
00:38:30.07\00:38:30.81
had at this table.
00:38:30.81\00:38:32.14
>>JEFFERY: That is literally
in an introduction to a book,
00:38:32.14\00:38:35.34
faith is not opposed
to effort but to earning.
00:38:35.34\00:38:40.12
>>TY: Why would
faith be opposed to effort?
00:38:40.12\00:38:41.32
It couldn't possible
by opposed to effort.
00:38:41.32\00:38:42.85
>>DAVID: As long as you
say faith, I'm happy there.
00:38:42.85\00:38:44.29
But if you say
grace, I get nervous.
00:38:44.29\00:38:45.72
>>JEFFERY: So, if I said
grace, instead grace, grace is
00:38:45.72\00:38:50.29
opposed to earning, not effort.
00:38:50.29\00:38:54.76
>>DAVID: I disagree.
00:38:54.76\00:38:55.93
>>JEFFERY: You
would disagree with that.
00:38:55.93\00:38:57.03
>>DAVID: Because they're
incompatible, they're mutually
00:38:57.03\00:38:58.27
exclusive.
00:38:58.27\00:38:59.37
>>JEFFERY: But if the word
was faith, you would agree.
00:38:59.37\00:39:00.87
>>DAVID: Totally happy.
00:39:00.87\00:39:02.00
>>TY: I think that makes sense.
00:39:02.00\00:39:04.57
We could say it like
this, maybe that faith and works
00:39:04.57\00:39:10.01
describe a relational
dynamic, not a balance.
00:39:10.01\00:39:13.68
So, I'm not gonna say to you,
hey, Jeffrey, okay, faith is
00:39:13.68\00:39:18.42
important and you're saved
by faith, but you also need to
00:39:18.42\00:39:23.49
balance that out, Jeffrey, you
need to balance that out with
00:39:23.49\00:39:26.53
some works, bro.
00:39:26.53\00:39:27.73
You need those works
to balance out your faith.
00:39:27.73\00:39:29.40
No, it's, faith itself
is a certain quality, it's a
00:39:29.40\00:39:32.40
certain thing and it is
an active principle that
00:39:32.40\00:39:36.40
inevitably produces works.
00:39:36.40\00:39:38.57
>>DAVID: It's a verb.
00:39:38.57\00:39:39.57
>>TY: It's a verb.
00:39:39.57\00:39:40.58
It does things.
00:39:40.58\00:39:41.74
>>DAVID: It's not just a
noun, we can faith things.
00:39:41.74\00:39:45.35
Right?
00:39:45.35\00:39:46.35
So, check this out.
00:39:46.35\00:39:47.55
>>TY: Can we check this out
after the break, because we're
00:39:47.55\00:39:49.35
already two minutes over,
so, let's take a break and we'll
00:39:49.35\00:39:51.35
come right back.
00:39:51.35\00:39:52.35
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[Music]
00:40:54.85\00:41:01.29
>>TY: David, you were
about to take us to a verse.
00:41:01.29\00:41:02.99
>>DAVID: I don't even
remember, we were on such a
00:41:02.99\00:41:05.03
good, oh, you're right, so,
Ephesians 2, classic, you were
00:41:05.03\00:41:09.36
saved, by grace, you have been
saved through faith and that
00:41:09.36\00:41:12.63
not of yourselves, it is
the gift of God, not of works,
00:41:12.63\00:41:15.74
lest anyone should boast, for
we are his workmanship created
00:41:15.74\00:41:18.44
in Christ Jesus for good
works, which God prepared
00:41:18.44\00:41:22.28
beforehand that we
should walk in him.
00:41:22.28\00:41:24.28
No problem.
00:41:24.28\00:41:25.41
Here is faith creating
good works, no problem, sweet.
00:41:25.41\00:41:30.89
>>TY: So, literally, that says
that we're not saved by, but
00:41:30.89\00:41:35.66
we are saved for good
works, not by but for.
00:41:35.66\00:41:38.39
>>DAVID: That
preposition is key.
00:41:38.39\00:41:40.40
You're not saved through,
you're not saved by, you're
00:41:40.40\00:41:43.43
saved for good works.
00:41:43.43\00:41:45.13
>>TY: yeah, because
faith believes facts.
00:41:45.13\00:41:47.44
>>DAVID: I got a thought.
00:41:47.44\00:41:48.54
You say what you're gonna
say, then I'm gonna say it.
00:41:48.54\00:41:50.44
>>TY: Faith believes
facts, it doesn't create facts.
00:41:50.44\00:41:53.94
The facts are all accomplished
in Christ and faith is
00:41:53.94\00:41:56.61
latching onto and believing
what's going on over there
00:41:56.61\00:41:58.98
outside of myself, which
brings it inside of myself.
00:41:58.98\00:42:00.98
>>JEFFERY: It makes
those facts operative in life.
00:42:00.98\00:42:03.25
>>DAVID: How about this?
00:42:03.25\00:42:04.35
I just had a total breakthrough.
00:42:04.35\00:42:06.65
We are saved by good works.
00:42:06.65\00:42:12.69
>>JEFFERY: Of course.
00:42:12.69\00:42:14.76
>>DAVID: [Laughter]
00:42:14.76\00:42:17.83
I was hoping you would bite.
00:42:17.83\00:42:22.37
>>TY: Anathema.
00:42:22.37\00:42:24.51
>>DAVID: We are saved by goosd
works, by the good works of
00:42:24.51\00:42:25.81
Jesus.
00:42:25.81\00:42:26.91
>>JAMES: There's something
else here that I think is
00:42:26.91\00:42:28.08
really significant because
when we talk about salvation,
00:42:28.08\00:42:30.25
a lot of times, we put it in
the context of the things that
00:42:30.25\00:42:34.65
we do.
00:42:34.65\00:42:36.32
The works that we perform,
the actions, the outward
00:42:36.32\00:42:41.16
observation of rules, and we
don't always bring it back to
00:42:41.16\00:42:44.63
the heart because really what
God is all about is saving our
00:42:44.63\00:42:47.30
hearts for heaven.
00:42:47.30\00:42:49.40
He wants to transform us
so that we start thinking
00:42:49.40\00:42:51.97
differently and I just
wanted to go back to this in
00:42:51.97\00:42:53.97
Revelation to the whole idea
of anathema, because this was
00:42:53.97\00:42:57.01
the bottom line, because
yesterday, we talked about
00:42:57.01\00:42:59.07
this, or in a previous
program, we talked about
00:42:59.07\00:43:01.08
George Whitefield and
John Wesley and how they were
00:43:01.08\00:43:03.78
friends, but they disagreed
strongly on the whole idea
00:43:03.78\00:43:07.45
of...
00:43:07.45\00:43:08.45
>>DAVID: Predestination.
00:43:08.45\00:43:09.75
>>JAMES: Yeah, and John
said some pretty intense things
00:43:09.75\00:43:14.26
about the doctrine
that Whitefield held onto.
00:43:14.26\00:43:17.53
He held dear, and it really
upset Whitefield to such a
00:43:17.53\00:43:20.60
degree that they separated
for a while, and then they came
00:43:20.60\00:43:23.30
back together
and they continued.
00:43:23.30\00:43:25.87
And you remember the
story that we talked about?
00:43:25.87\00:43:27.17
>>JEFFERY: yeah,
we're not gonna see him.
00:43:27.17\00:43:28.77
>>JAMES: There was something
about the gospel that affirms
00:43:28.77\00:43:33.24
its genuineness when
it reaches the heart and
00:43:33.24\00:43:36.75
transforms the way that
we relate to our enemies.
00:43:36.75\00:43:40.25
Ty brought this up earlier in
relation to Matthew chapter 5.
00:43:40.25\00:43:43.52
So, here's the
point I wanna make.
00:43:43.52\00:43:47.29
Paul was willing to be
anathema on behalf of others,
00:43:47.29\00:43:53.90
who did not
believe his doctrine.
00:43:53.90\00:43:57.27
The church organization
pronounced, Romans 9:3,
00:43:57.27\00:44:05.04
pronounced anathema against
others who didn't agree with
00:44:05.04\00:44:08.34
their doctrine.
00:44:08.34\00:44:09.34
You see the difference?
00:44:09.34\00:44:10.35
>>DAVID: Totally.
00:44:10.35\00:44:11.45
I myself were cursed.
00:44:11.45\00:44:13.05
>>JAMES: You don't
believe my doctrine?
00:44:13.05\00:44:15.05
You're anathema.
00:44:15.05\00:44:16.15
Paul said, these brothers
and sisters, I wish I were
00:44:16.15\00:44:18.69
anathema.
00:44:18.69\00:44:19.69
>>DAVID: So that
they could be saved.
00:44:19.69\00:44:21.69
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:44:21.69\00:44:22.69
>>TY: And is that the
Greek word in Romans 9?
00:44:22.69\00:44:24.69
Anathema?
00:44:24.69\00:44:25.89
>>JAMES: It's the Greek word,
cursed from Christ, anathema
00:44:25.89\00:44:27.66
is the Greek word right there.
00:44:27.66\00:44:29.30
>>TY: He's essentially
saying I wish that I could be
00:44:29.30\00:44:31.60
eternally lost if
they could be saved?
00:44:31.60\00:44:33.60
>>JAMES: But let me say...
00:44:33.60\00:44:34.80
>>DAVID: I know a poem, you
gave a beautiful poem, I got a
00:44:34.80\00:44:36.60
beautiful poem.
00:44:36.60\00:44:37.74
>>JAMES: Lemme just finish
this real quick and then get
00:44:37.74\00:44:39.81
to that poem, but
here's the point I wanna make.
00:44:39.81\00:44:43.21
Paul couches that statement
with two verses before, and
00:44:43.21\00:44:45.95
this is what he says, he says,
I say the truth in Christ, I
00:44:45.95\00:44:49.92
lie not, my conscience
also bear me witness in the Holy
00:44:49.92\00:44:54.29
Ghost, that I have great
heaviness and continually
00:44:54.29\00:44:57.76
sorrow in my heart.
00:44:57.76\00:44:59.06
See, it's like, you're
not gonna believe this.
00:44:59.06\00:45:01.50
>>DAVID: That's
right. Yeah that's right.
00:45:01.50\00:45:03.83
>>JAMES: When we go through the
New Testament and we identify
00:45:03.83\00:45:06.43
the fruit of the spirit, a lot
of times, we identify it in the
00:45:06.43\00:45:10.97
outward obedience.
00:45:10.97\00:45:12.77
But the reformers were getting
us back to the heart of the
00:45:12.77\00:45:16.04
matter and that's where it was.
00:45:16.04\00:45:17.48
>>DAVID: So, you have
Paul saying, I wish that I were
00:45:17.48\00:45:21.92
cursed for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the
00:45:21.92\00:45:24.19
flesh, and then, you
have remember, on Mount Sinai,
00:45:24.19\00:45:26.12
God's like, I'm done.
00:45:26.12\00:45:27.49
I'm done with these people
and we're gonna start over with
00:45:27.49\00:45:29.59
you a new nation, right?
00:45:29.59\00:45:30.93
And he's like, no, blot me out.
00:45:30.93\00:45:33.03
Same idea.
00:45:33.03\00:45:34.00
So, there's this beautiful poem.
00:45:34.00\00:45:35.33
I don't even know who wrote
it, but I memorized it years
00:45:35.33\00:45:37.43
ago, the fear of heaven,
the fear of hell or aiming to be
00:45:37.43\00:45:41.64
blessed savors too
much of private interest.
00:45:41.64\00:45:44.77
This moved not Moses nor
zealous Paul, who for others
00:45:44.77\00:45:49.64
sacrificed life and all.
00:45:49.64\00:45:52.65
I love that.
00:45:52.65\00:45:54.58
It's not the fear of hell,
it's not aiming to be blessed,
00:45:54.58\00:45:56.58
it's this other thing.
00:45:56.58\00:45:58.29
It's a godly thing.
00:45:58.29\00:46:01.46
>>TY: So, salvation suddenly
isn't the ultimate objective,
00:46:01.46\00:46:04.86
my personal
salvation isn't the issue.
00:46:04.86\00:46:07.40
>>DAVID: Bringing God glory,
which is gonna be the last
00:46:07.40\00:46:08.63
sola that we'll be at.
00:46:08.63\00:46:09.83
All the glory goes to God.
00:46:09.83\00:46:11.27
When we write the script in
such a way that we become the
00:46:11.27\00:46:14.27
hero of the play,
we're doing it wrong.
00:46:14.27\00:46:17.97
Jesus is the hero of the
story, and in the words of one
00:46:17.97\00:46:20.28
of my favorite theologians,
he says, we are the seventh
00:46:20.28\00:46:23.01
footmen and the fifth
foot soldier that come in for a
00:46:23.01\00:46:25.18
moment, make our appearance
on the stage, and step off.
00:46:25.18\00:46:27.58
Jesus is the hero in this story.
00:46:27.58\00:46:30.72
We come in, we stand there
with our funny outfits on and
00:46:30.72\00:46:32.75
then we leave.
00:46:32.75\00:46:34.26
This is a story
about Jesus, not about me.
00:46:34.26\00:46:38.03
>>TY: That's right, and since
it's a story about Jesus, back
00:46:38.03\00:46:42.30
to the Ephesians 2 text, I
don't know if you guys, did we
00:46:42.30\00:46:47.64
read verse 10?
00:46:47.64\00:46:49.37
>>DAVID: Yeah, I just read it.
00:46:49.37\00:46:50.24
For and by and we are created...
00:46:50.24\00:46:52.24
>>TY: So, what is this
language, for we are his
00:46:52.24\00:46:54.24
workmanship created in Christ
Jesus, there it is again, the
00:46:54.24\00:46:58.11
thing we were talking about
earlier, that universal sense
00:46:58.11\00:47:00.32
in which Jesus is the
universal man, the universal
00:47:00.32\00:47:03.49
human that represents
all of us, that we are his
00:47:03.49\00:47:07.22
workmanship created in Christ
Jesus for good works, which
00:47:07.22\00:47:10.69
God has prepared the good works.
00:47:10.69\00:47:13.56
Prepared beforehand
that we should walk in them.
00:47:13.56\00:47:16.40
So, Paul's language
again, he's very consistent with
00:47:16.40\00:47:20.00
this.
00:47:20.00\00:47:21.07
The good works had been
prepared before we do them.
00:47:21.07\00:47:24.77
Before I walk in them.
00:47:24.77\00:47:26.01
They're over there.
00:47:26.01\00:47:27.61
In Christ.
00:47:27.61\00:47:28.88
They exist.
00:47:28.88\00:47:29.84
There's a story that's
already been lived out.
00:47:29.84\00:47:32.18
Jesus is the new
narrative of humanity.
00:47:32.18\00:47:35.58
>>JEFFERY: The word
workmanship there is poema.
00:47:35.58\00:47:37.92
>>TY: Poema.
00:47:37.92\00:47:38.92
So, it's actually,
he is in fact, poema.
00:47:38.92\00:47:42.02
>>JEFFERY:
You're living that poem.
00:47:42.02\00:47:44.03
>>DAVID: There is at
least one translation that says,
00:47:44.03\00:47:46.33
masterpiece.
00:47:46.33\00:47:47.30
>>TY: Yeah,
isn't that incredible?
00:47:47.30\00:47:49.30
>>DAVID: We are his
masterpiece, what a story.
00:47:49.30\00:47:53.23
I love that because it brings
in the artisan component, it
00:47:53.23\00:47:55.64
brings in the...
00:47:55.64\00:47:57.41
>>JEFFERY: Creative expression.
00:47:57.41\00:47:58.47
>>DAVID: Because so
much of the way we talk about
00:47:58.47\00:48:00.41
salvation, and there is an
element of this, but so much
00:48:00.41\00:48:02.41
of it is legal, and for most
of us, the legal thing, like,
00:48:02.41\00:48:05.95
it moves you.
00:48:05.95\00:48:06.95
But a poem moves
you in another way.
00:48:06.95\00:48:09.88
A masterpiece
moves you in another way.
00:48:09.88\00:48:12.79
Love moves you in another way.
00:48:12.79\00:48:14.39
A song moves you in another way.
00:48:14.39\00:48:16.73
So, there is the legal,
but there's the artistic.
00:48:16.73\00:48:19.56
There's the creative.
00:48:19.56\00:48:20.60
>>TY: My favorite book
on preaching ever is Walter
00:48:20.60\00:48:22.73
Brueggemann, the title alone
will speak to you, The title
00:48:22.73\00:48:26.63
of the book is Finally, comma,
Comes the Poet, exclamation
00:48:26.63\00:48:30.37
point.
00:48:30.37\00:48:31.61
And what this book is about
is he is essentially saying that
00:48:31.61\00:48:34.34
all of the prophets and
apostles, the writings of
00:48:34.34\00:48:38.18
scripture are artistic
renderings of the heart of
00:48:38.18\00:48:42.02
God.
00:48:42.02\00:48:43.22
And that if the gospels' going
to finally be preached with
00:48:43.22\00:48:45.85
power, it's going to have
to be preached as a beautiful
00:48:45.85\00:48:49.66
depiction, not just as
a series of propositional
00:48:49.66\00:48:53.60
doctrines.
00:48:53.60\00:48:54.56
>>DAVID: Look at Jesus.
00:48:54.56\00:48:55.66
>>TY: So, it's kind of
like a sigh, you know, we're
00:48:55.66\00:48:58.60
listening to all this
preaching, ours included,
00:48:58.60\00:49:01.60
we're listening to all this
lawyer preaching, all of our
00:49:01.60\00:49:04.24
propositional statements and
then the title of the book is
00:49:04.24\00:49:07.94
Finally, Comes the Poet.
00:49:07.94\00:49:09.54
We've been waiting for beauty,
we've been waiting for art,
00:49:09.54\00:49:12.75
we've been waiting
for Isaiah's Savior songs.
00:49:12.75\00:49:15.55
>>JEFFERY: Without a
parable, he did nothing.
00:49:15.55\00:49:21.39
>>DAVID: He was
telling stories, he was telling
00:49:21.39\00:49:23.39
illustrations.
00:49:23.39\00:49:24.39
>>JEFFERY: He was a
poet, he was a storyteller.
00:49:24.39\00:49:26.39
>>DAVID: And he told
some amazing stories.
00:49:26.39\00:49:28.43
Stories that people
laid hold of and, yes.
00:49:28.43\00:49:32.30
But, I'll say this, and
this is slightly controversial,
00:49:32.30\00:49:37.07
but, the reason, one of
the reasons that we have such a
00:49:37.07\00:49:41.51
legal framework for our
understanding of salvation,
00:49:41.51\00:49:45.71
there are textual elements
of law court, we see it in
00:49:45.71\00:49:48.02
Daniel, we see it in the
writings of Paul, but the
00:49:48.02\00:49:50.65
reason that we are skewed that
way, or overemphasizing that
00:49:50.65\00:49:54.76
is that that is the context
of the Protestant reformation.
00:49:54.76\00:49:59.73
That's our heritage.
00:49:59.73\00:50:01.20
Well, basically, you are
having very precise, very
00:50:01.20\00:50:04.53
theological, very legal
debates between exactly what
00:50:04.53\00:50:07.70
do you mean by that?
00:50:07.70\00:50:09.94
What do you mean by that?
00:50:09.94\00:50:11.17
Let them, so, because you have
this legal framework, I mean,
00:50:11.17\00:50:14.91
what did Luther study
before he became a monk?
00:50:14.91\00:50:17.91
He was studying law.
00:50:17.91\00:50:19.15
Calvin, exactly, so we inherit
a legal way of thinking about
00:50:19.15\00:50:23.59
salvation, thinking about
life, the narrative, and there
00:50:23.59\00:50:26.19
is an element of that, you
read it in Paul, you read it,
00:50:26.19\00:50:28.86
you can find, but there
are other elements as well,
00:50:28.86\00:50:31.86
elements that we
tend not to emphasize.
00:50:31.86\00:50:33.63
Relational,
psychological, artistic.
00:50:33.63\00:50:38.07
We don't wanna deny, we
don't need less of something, we
00:50:38.07\00:50:40.87
need more of something.
00:50:40.87\00:50:42.44
Not less of the
legal, but more of the other.
00:50:42.44\00:50:44.37
>>TY: Praise God, praise God.
00:50:44.37\00:50:46.14
I'm thinking of an experience
that I had as a teenage boy
00:50:46.14\00:50:51.15
with my mom.
00:50:51.15\00:50:53.25
And she, at this point,
was not a follower of Jesus, I
00:50:53.25\00:50:57.69
wasn't, definitely, but I
had an experience with her that
00:50:57.69\00:51:01.62
I've looked back on over and
over again that illustrated to
00:51:01.62\00:51:04.66
me what James was sharing
earlier in Isaiah 53 about
00:51:04.66\00:51:07.50
nasa, forgiveness, this
idea that forgiveness, the word
00:51:07.50\00:51:12.53
nasa means basically to
lift off, to take a burden off.
00:51:12.53\00:51:16.97
I bore it for you type of thing.
00:51:16.97\00:51:19.44
When I was a teenager, I
worked up the courage, and if
00:51:19.44\00:51:23.48
you knew my mom, you'd know
that it took courage to, you
00:51:23.48\00:51:26.41
had to work up courage, okay,
I worked up the courage to lie
00:51:26.41\00:51:31.69
to my mom as a teenager.
00:51:31.69\00:51:33.39
And I hadn't ever.
00:51:33.39\00:51:35.22
>>JAMES: I had a mom like that.
00:51:35.22\00:51:36.62
>>TY: Yeah, and I lied to her
about, I told her I was gonna
00:51:36.62\00:51:40.26
be out of our apartment
door, you know, down about 10
00:51:40.26\00:51:44.50
apartment doors at
Stan and Harold's house.
00:51:44.50\00:51:46.77
These were older guys who were
friends of mine that used to
00:51:46.77\00:51:49.50
beat me up and then I became
friends with them and they
00:51:49.50\00:51:52.21
stopped beating me up.
00:51:52.21\00:51:53.54
They were older and I
said, that's where I'm going.
00:51:53.54\00:51:57.38
And we lived in a part of LA
that was just very, very, very
00:51:57.38\00:52:02.48
rough.
00:52:02.48\00:52:03.55
I mean, we went to sleep
listening to shootings going
00:52:03.55\00:52:05.92
on, there were drug
deals being done out front,
00:52:05.92\00:52:08.36
prostitution, it was all
happening out in front of our
00:52:08.36\00:52:12.03
apartment complex.
00:52:12.03\00:52:13.60
And I said, I'm going
to Stan and Harold's house.
00:52:13.60\00:52:16.20
And she said, you're not going
out to the front, and I said,
00:52:16.20\00:52:21.84
no.
00:52:21.84\00:52:23.07
And that's exactly where I was
going, and I just looked at my
00:52:23.07\00:52:25.21
mom right in the eyes and I
lied to her, I told her that I
00:52:25.21\00:52:27.24
was not going precisely where
I was going, and a few hours
00:52:27.24\00:52:32.51
later, I came back, I walked
in the door, and she said, so,
00:52:32.51\00:52:36.35
where were you?
00:52:36.35\00:52:38.09
And I said, I told you
where I was, I was at Stan and
00:52:38.09\00:52:39.55
Harold's house.
00:52:39.55\00:52:41.32
And she said, that's
interesting because I called
00:52:41.32\00:52:47.76
Stan and Harold's mom
and you never showed up.
00:52:47.76\00:52:51.87
Boom, she reared back,
she punched me square in the
00:52:51.87\00:52:54.20
middle of the face, you
can call this child abuse,
00:52:54.20\00:52:56.27
whatever, don't judge my mom.
00:52:56.27\00:52:57.54
I was a teenager, I was
taller than her at this point.
00:52:57.54\00:53:00.14
She wasn't gonna put me
over her knee and spank me.
00:53:00.14\00:53:02.11
>>DAVID: So, she's
gonna punch you in the head.
00:53:02.11\00:53:03.95
>>TY: Bam, she punched me
in the middle of the face.
00:53:03.95\00:53:05.65
I hit the ground, she jumped
on top of me, sitting on my
00:53:05.65\00:53:08.88
chest with both fists like
this and said, don't you ever
00:53:08.88\00:53:12.92
lie to me again, and I vowed
never to again, and I said,
00:53:12.92\00:53:17.09
mom, I'm sorry, I was
crying, please, mom, forgive me,
00:53:17.09\00:53:22.33
forgive me, forgive me.
00:53:22.33\00:53:23.70
Forgive me.
00:53:23.70\00:53:25.13
I'm crying and she says, she's
angry, you don't have to ask
00:53:25.13\00:53:30.47
me to forgive you, I forgave
you before you ever walked in
00:53:30.47\00:53:34.14
the door.
00:53:34.14\00:53:36.08
She had already done it.
00:53:36.08\00:53:39.41
In her heart...
00:53:39.41\00:53:40.62
>>DAVID: Why did
she punch you then?
00:53:40.62\00:53:41.78
[Laughter]
00:53:41.78\00:53:43.65
>>TY: Because she was pretty
upset, she wanted to make an
00:53:43.65\00:53:46.65
impression on my
young mind, never lie to me.
00:53:46.65\00:53:49.99
impression on my
young mind, never lie to me.
00:53:49.99\00:53:51.66
>>JEFFERY: Why did God
kick Adam and Eve out of the
00:53:51.66\00:53:55.10
Garden?
00:53:55.10\00:53:55.86
>>JAMES: Why does he chasten us?
00:53:55.86\00:53:57.80
>>TY: Now, I'm just
saying that my mom's heart was
00:53:57.80\00:54:02.07
already there.
00:54:02.07\00:54:04.27
Okay, God's
heart is already there.
00:54:04.27\00:54:06.74
Where's there?
00:54:06.74\00:54:08.24
In this place called
forgiveness, this place called
00:54:08.24\00:54:10.25
grace, this place of
unconditional love that is
00:54:10.25\00:54:15.12
foreign to our perception
of God's character until we
00:54:15.12\00:54:19.79
encounter it in Christ.
00:54:19.79\00:54:21.29
When we see in Jesus, you
know, Father, forgive them,
00:54:21.29\00:54:24.93
they don't know
what they're doing.
00:54:24.93\00:54:27.66
It has a powerful, powerful
impact on our response to God.
00:54:27.66\00:54:32.50
>>JAMES: I wanna tell you
something interesting, too, go
00:54:32.50\00:54:33.70
ahead.
00:54:33.70\00:54:34.47
>>DAVID: I'll
just be very quick.
00:54:34.47\00:54:35.80
We're low on time, so you go.
00:54:35.80\00:54:37.04
>>JAMES: I was just gonna say,
I mentioned that comment that
00:54:37.04\00:54:41.44
because she loved him, and
that's what my mom did, too.
00:54:41.44\00:54:44.55
My mom told me later she was
afraid, being a single parent,
00:54:44.55\00:54:47.05
she was afraid that if she
held back the physical, oh,
00:54:47.05\00:54:53.79
she'd slap me across the face
without a second hesitation.
00:54:53.79\00:54:57.23
I was so afraid of her.
00:54:57.23\00:54:59.13
She told me that she was
afraid that if she would've
00:54:59.13\00:55:01.30
held back, that I would grow
up as a sissy or I would grow
00:55:01.30\00:55:03.50
up as a mama's boy or whatever.
00:55:03.50\00:55:05.27
Then, we moved to Hawaii when
I was 11 and we lived with my
00:55:05.27\00:55:07.74
dad for 6 months.
00:55:07.74\00:55:09.67
And when my dad would go
to get physical with me, she
00:55:09.67\00:55:11.67
would defend it,
she would defend me.
00:55:11.67\00:55:13.38
Don't touch him,
don't you lay a hand on him.
00:55:13.38\00:55:15.58
What I'm saying is...
00:55:15.58\00:55:17.08
>>TY: I can
punch him, you can't.
00:55:17.08\00:55:18.45
>>JAMES: No, it wasn't that,
it was that her mother's heart
00:55:18.45\00:55:21.15
was not wanting to physically
touch me, you see what I'm
00:55:21.15\00:55:24.02
saying?
00:55:24.02\00:55:25.19
But she knew, she, in her
mind, but I've gotta do this,
00:55:25.19\00:55:28.22
I love him and I gotta do this.
00:55:28.22\00:55:29.29
I can't let him, you
know what I'm saying?
00:55:29.29\00:55:30.76
So, this, I think this is a
picture of how God interacts
00:55:30.76\00:55:35.06
with us.
00:55:35.06\00:55:36.30
He's gotta figure out the best
way to relate to us because of
00:55:36.30\00:55:40.70
his love, and
sometimes, we don't get that.
00:55:40.70\00:55:44.21
>>TY: I just think my mom
was low on emotional resources.
00:55:44.21\00:55:46.81
She didn't know
how to deal with me.
00:55:46.81\00:55:48.28
[Laughter]
00:55:48.28\00:55:49.41
So, she punched me.
00:55:49.41\00:55:50.58
I think she could've come
up with a different method, but
00:55:50.58\00:55:52.51
it worked anyway.
00:55:52.51\00:55:54.32
>>DAVID: You turned out alright.
00:55:54.32\00:55:55.52
>>TY: I just think it's
incredible that forgiveness
00:55:55.52\00:55:58.02
precedes
forgiveness, in a sense.
00:55:58.02\00:56:01.29
It's amazing that God is
already there and then, it's
00:56:01.29\00:56:07.20
the very thing that
draws us there with him.
00:56:07.20\00:56:10.93
That's what I think's going on.
00:56:10.93\00:56:13.00
[Music]
00:56:13.00\00:56:21.48
[Music]
00:56:21.48\00:56:24.88