Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000508A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: Hey, David, what's that you have in your hand there? 00:23 >>DAVID: This, Ty Gibson, is a guitar. 00:25 >>TY: It is a guitar. 00:27 >>DAVID: This is my travel guitar because I don't like to 00:28 travel with my nice guitar. 00:30 >>TY: You have a nice one. 00:31 >>DAVID: I have a nice guitar that my friend Josh our friend 00:32 Josh made me, so I don't like to travel with that guitar. 00:36 So, this is a fairly inexpensive guitar that I 00:39 bought so I can travel. 00:40 >>JAMES: What are we talking about? 00:41 Let's get to the subject. 00:42 >>DAVID: So, the reason it's at the table, this is not 00:44 gonna be Table Talk, James, I hope you're ready for a song 00:46 service. 00:47 >>JAMES: What? 00:48 >>DAVID: Let's Table Sing. 00:49 We're going Table Sing, and Jeffrey's gonna... 00:51 [Laughter] 00:52 >>JEFFERY: I got the cymbals. 00:53 >>DAVID: So, we're on our second of the five... 00:55 >>TY: Wait a minute, don't tell him what the topic is, 00:57 let's, share the song with us and maybe those who are 01:01 sitting with us can guess what our topic is. 01:06 >>ALL: ♪ Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved ♪ 01:15 ♪ a wretch like me. 01:21 ♪ I once was lost, but now, I'm found, was blind, but now I ♪ 01:33 ♪ see. 01:35 >>TY: So, what's the topic, David? 01:37 >>DAVID: Sola gracia. 01:39 Amazing grace. 01:41 I'm just gonna play, no, I'm just kidding. 01:44 So, we're talking about grace. 01:45 >>TY: Yeah, so we're moving through a series on the 01:49 reformation, this is called the reformation series and 01:53 within the scope of the series, we have 13 discussions 01:57 but 5 of them are devoted specifically to the 5 solas 02:01 that are the key principles and teachings that launch the 02:05 Protestant reformation. 02:07 In our previous session, we did sola scriptura and now, 02:11 sola gracia. 02:13 This is our opportunity to delve into what scripture has 02:17 to say and what the reformers had to say about grace and the 02:21 role that it plays in our salvation because it happens 02:24 to play, David, Jeffrey, James, the role, not a role, 02:30 the role. 02:33 So, maybe we could launch into this with a statement by 02:38 Luther that we will agree with and disagree with. 02:42 Because, as we've said before, these guys were in process 02:43 just like we are and Luther said, quoting from Titus 02:49 chapter 3, verses 5-7, that was his passage, he says, so, 02:54 here, Paul discards all boasted free will, all human 03:02 virtue, righteousness, and good works, end quote. 03:08 Yes and no. 03:09 >>JEFFERY: Or no and yes. 03:10 >>TY: No and yes, go for it, Jeffrey. 03:12 >>JEFFERY: Well, the first clause was he discards all 03:14 free will. 03:15 >>TY: Free will. 03:16 So, why would we push back on that? 03:20 I mean, who are we to even push back on Luther? 03:22 This is the great Dr. Martin Luther, who launched the 03:25 Protestant reformation. 03:26 >>JAMES: Because, as we talked about earlier, we recognize 03:29 that there are two streams that come out of the 03:31 Protestant reformation. 03:32 There's the Calvinist stream and then, there's the 03:34 Arminiest stream. 03:35 And Arminiest believed, he read Calvin, but he believed 03:40 that there was a place for free will, and Calvin did not. 03:45 Calvin was staunch, no way, it's irresistible grace, 03:48 whereas compared to prevenient grace, it's irresistible 03:51 grace, you can't resist it because if you are choosing 03:53 something, that's a work. 03:54 >>TY: Yeah, you used a big word there again that I asked 03:57 you to define previously, prevenient grace. 04:01 What is prevenient? 04:03 >>JAMES: Oh, well, all they need to do is go back to, no. 04:05 [Laughter] 04:07 It means to precede, it precedes. 04:10 >>DAVID: Grace that comes before. 04:11 >>JAMES: Any choice we make, there's grace that actually is 04:14 what is motivating, drawing us to make that choice. 04:17 >>TY: So, for absolutely clarity, we don't believe that 04:19 there is either merit in the exercise of free will, we're 04:26 with Calvin there, right? 04:27 We're with Luther there, there's no merit in the 04:29 exercise of free will. 04:30 >>DAVID: There's not merit in anything. 04:32 >>TY: Yeah, but we would go a step further, they went a step 04:35 further, there's not merit in anything. 04:38 We're saved by grace alone, period, end of subject, then 04:41 you can elaborate from there. 04:43 But it's not grace and anything else. 04:47 Grace is the solitary means by which God saves. 04:51 So, we don't believe there's merit in the exercise of free 04:53 will, but what James is sharing with us, which he's 04:57 drawing from Jacob as Arminius is the idea that even the 05:03 exercise of our will is something that's occurring 05:08 because of a quality of grace that precedes. 05:11 >>JEFFERY: You said he's basing this quote you just 05:13 brought to us from Titus 3:5-8? 05:16 Is that what you said? 05:17 >>TY: Yeah, that's what Luther's commentating on. 05:19 >>JEFFERY: Well, if you go to the passage itself, I would 05:21 find cause to disagree with that first clause against free 05:25 will, just here. 05:28 In verse 8, this is a faithful saying, these things I want 05:30 you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God 05:34 should be careful to maintain good works. 05:37 So, here, there's the act, there's the volitional act of 05:40 believing. 05:41 So, I think that... 05:42 >>TY: And there's an admonishment to do it. 05:45 >>JEFFERY: Meaning you should, meaning it's possible for you 05:49 not to. 05:50 Why would you admonish to do something if it wasn't 05:53 possible not to. 05:55 So, it implies the ability to exercise free will. 05:59 >>TY: But again, even that ability to exercise free will, 06:02 according to Arminius, according to John Wesley, and 06:06 we're kind of in that Protestant strain ourselves, 06:09 even that exercise of free will is something that's 06:14 occurring in the human being because of the grace that 06:17 precedes even the exercise of free will. 06:20 >>JAMES: And that's in the context also, so if you go 06:22 back now, of course, we know chapter divisions came later. 06:24 If you go back to Titus 2:11, for the grace of God that 06:28 brings salvation has appeared unto all men. 06:31 That was the argument of Jacobus Arminius, it is 06:35 appeared to all men, it comes to all men, it's not 06:37 conditional, or we should say, unconditional or irresistible, 06:42 it actually is something that is prevenient and therefore, 06:44 pervades and precedes and goes forth to everyone. 06:48 And then, he goes on in chapter 3 and you look here, 06:51 there's a couple of verses in between, and I'm just gonna 06:54 highlight these two, verse 4, but after the kindness and 06:57 love of our Savior toward man appeared, that's the world in 07:01 general, verse 6, which was shed upon us abundantly 07:05 through our Lord Jesus Christ that being justified by his 07:06 grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of 07:11 eternal life. 07:12 This is a faithful saying. 07:14 Now, the phrase, this is a faithful saying, and these 07:17 things I will that thou are from constantly, that, that 07:20 phrase right there, that word right there, that means so 07:23 that or in order that. 07:25 What is about to be said in verse 8 is based on what's 07:28 already been said in chapter 2, verse 11, all the way to 07:32 chapter 3 and verse 7. 07:36 >>TY: Make that clearer, thought, what do you mean by 07:37 that? 07:38 >>JAMES: So, basically, the emphasis that Paul is giving 07:40 in Titus is, it's grace, grace, grace, grace, grace. 07:44 And you should affirm that constantly so that you would 07:48 maintain good works. 07:49 Good works are manifest by affirming constantly that 07:52 you're saved by grace, you're saved by grace, you're saved 07:54 by grace. 07:55 >>TY: That is so powerful. 07:57 So, good works don't emerge out of emphasizing good works. 08:00 >>JEFFERY: They're a byproduct of something else. 08:02 >>TY: Good works is a byproduct of grace. 08:05 So, emphasize grace if you want good works. 08:08 >>DAVID: One of the conversations that the 08:10 Christian church has historically wrestled with and 08:13 tried to get its understanding wrapped around is the 08:16 relationship of faith with works. 08:18 But not so much with grace and works because those are 08:23 incommencery, they are mutually exclusive. 08:27 >>TY: And we're not saved by grace and works. 08:28 >>DAVID: That doesn't even make sense, it's like talking 08:30 about a square circle, right? 08:31 That's not a thing. 08:34 If there's a wage, if there's a merit, if there's some 08:36 credit, something that is owed to me, then it can't be by 08:40 grace. 08:41 Yeah, that's right. 08:42 We can talk about, we will talk about the relationship of 08:45 faith with works but we're not saved by faith. 08:49 Right? 08:50 We're saved through faith by grace. 08:54 Now, there is a sense in which we're saved by God's faith and 08:58 his faithfulness, which we'll get to. 09:00 >>JEFFERY: That says faith is the agency through which we 09:03 access the thing, which is grace. 09:05 >>DAVID: The thing is grace. 09:06 >>TY: So, faith is like the hands that are grabbing at, 09:09 laying hold of it, apprehending it. 09:11 >>DAVID: But this has to be an objective reality that already 09:14 exists somewhere, in this case, in the heart of God as 09:19 manifested in Christ's death on Calvary. 09:22 If that is not complete in and of itself, then we got a 09:26 problem. 09:27 How do we access it? 09:28 That's another question. 09:30 That is the thing by which we are made right with God. 09:33 >>JAMES: Romans 11:6. 09:34 If it's of works, it's no more of grace, if it's of grace, 09:38 it's no more of works. 09:39 It's one or the other, right. 09:41 >>TY: One of the reformers, and I don't remember which 09:43 one, maybe one of you will remember, framed it like this, 09:47 essentially that to put forth any works, having anything to 09:53 do with salvation, earning salvation is actually an 09:58 insult to God. 10:02 Similar to me giving you a gift and then you handing me 10:08 cash. 10:10 If I say to you, happy birthday, James, and I give 10:15 you a gift, and you pull out a $100 bill 'cause it's quite a 10:18 significant gift I've given you, you hand me that $100 10:21 bill, I'm gonna feel, how am I gonna feel? 10:24 I'm gonna feel insulted because you're basically 10:28 turning the gift into a transaction. 10:34 >>DAVID: I'll tell you a funny story on that very point. 10:36 So, probably, years ago now, maybe 12 years ago or 10 years 10:40 ago, I was in my home and a pastoral colleague of mine had 10:44 come to visit and he was wanting to borrow a lens to go 10:48 to Africa, he was going on a trip to Africa and I love my 10:50 photography. 10:51 So, he was gonna borrow a lens. 10:52 The problem was that I had this really nice lens that I 10:55 was gonna let him borrow, but the camera that he had, I 10:57 said, man, this camera is not capturing, yeah, it's just 11:00 not, you need a better camera. 11:02 Oh, I can't afford it, the trip and this. 11:04 And then, the Spirit just came upon me and said, 'cause I had 11:07 at that point 3 cameras, right, I had just bought a new 11:09 camera, and I have a backup camera and I had my old camera 11:11 that I was gonna sell. 11:12 And it wasn't, you know, I mean, it would've been worth 11:14 maybe, I dunno $700, $800. 11:15 Not a huge amount of money, but a significant amount of 11:17 money. 11:19 And the Spirit just impresses me and says, David, give Royce 11:23 your camera. 11:25 And so, I'm like, man, that's a great idea. 11:26 So, I'm like, wait right here. 11:29 So, I go to my room, get my box, it's all boxed up 'cause 11:31 I'm gonna sell it. 11:32 And I bring it out and I say, here's your new camera, this 11:36 will take great pictures with this lens. 11:39 And he's like, what is this? 11:40 I said, I was gonna sell this, I've got two other cameras, 11:43 this is my backup, you can have it. 11:46 And you should've just seen him, just instantly, oh, no, 11:48 no, I can't, no, I couldn't accept this, he just goes into 11:50 this whole thing, I can't accept that, this makes me 11:52 uncomfortable, blah, blah, blah, blah. 11:54 So, then, I say to him, the Spirit just gave me wisdom, I 11:58 say to him, you're planning on being saved are you? 12:01 And he's just like, what do you mean? 12:05 What do you mean? 12:06 And I say, listen, if you can't accept a camera that's 12:08 worth a few hundred dollars, how are you gonna accept a 12:11 gift of inestimatable value, incalculable value? 12:15 And you know what he said? 12:16 Next three words? 12:17 Gimme that camera. Gimme the camera. 12:18 [Laughter] 12:20 Give te the camera. And he took it. 12:22 >>JAMES: And hey, that's what Ty said, though, what I really 12:24 wanna emphasize, I mean, not emphasize, but just bring out 12:26 something here that I think is really significant in both 12:28 these stories, what would the appropriate response be after 12:33 you say yes? 12:33 What would be the appropriate response? 12:35 >>DAVID: Take some amazing photos and send me a gift. 12:37 >>JAMES: No, the immediate response. 12:38 >>DAVID: Oh, thankfulness, appreciation. 12:40 >>JAMES: Gratitude, thank you. 12:43 And that whole process that you've gone through, okay, the 12:46 gift is given, thank you, also, puts an image or an 12:54 understanding in the mind toward that person, toward 12:57 that person so that as you move on through life, you have 13:01 this image, this way that you're looking at that person 13:04 that is reflected in the way you relate to that person and 13:06 the way you relate to others in relation to that person, 13:09 you know what I'm saying? 13:10 >>JEFFERY: It would also reflect the way you relate to 13:11 the gift. 13:13 He could relate to the way you relate to the gift. 13:15 You receive this valuable thing that you didn't earn, 13:19 and your sense of gratitude for this gift, you would value 13:22 this gift that you received. 13:25 See what I mean? 13:26 So, it would be the same with grace. 13:28 >>JAMES: I wanna know how that guy relates to you, you see 13:30 what I'm saying? 13:31 Well, so going down the road. 13:33 >>DAVID: Fascinatingly, when he comes back from his trip, 13:36 oh, he's just like, oh, you gotta see these photos and I 13:37 had so much joy in seeing his photographs. 13:43 >>TY: It's interesting, James.... 13:44 >>DAVID: It brought more joy to me than the 500 or 600 or 13:47 $700 that I would've got for that camera. 13:49 Was way better for him to walk out, he was going, look what I 13:52 got. 13:54 This was given to me. 13:56 It's amazing. 13:57 >>TY: Beautiful. 13:58 It's interesting that you would say it changes the way 14:02 the receiver of the gift sees the giver because the reason 14:07 that's interesting to me is because the word grace in the 14:10 New Testament is the Greek word charas from which we get 14:15 words like charismatic and charisma. 14:19 So, literally, when the bible says, we're saved by God's 14:23 grace, it's saying, we're saved by God's charisma in the 14:29 sense of God's character. 14:32 God is who he is and because God is who he is, he relates 14:35 to us according to his character, according to his 14:41 identity. 14:42 And it's the exertion of God's good character upon us 14:48 undeserving that causes us to form a new image of him in our 14:52 minds where we begin responding to him. 14:55 >>JEFFERY: Isn't that what Romans is, the goodness of God 14:57 leads us to repentance. 15:00 >>TY: Yeah, Romans 2. 15:01 Yeah. 15:02 >>DAVID: When I think about this, I think, the first verse 15:05 that comes to my mind when we talk about sola gracia is 15:07 Ephesians 2. 15:09 Ephesians 2, and I'm sure there are many other verses 15:12 that, you know, I know there are hundreds of other verses 15:14 that you could go to. 15:15 Titus, great, Titus 2. 15:18 I love Ephesians 2, for by grace, you have been saved, I 15:24 love the conclusive nature of that. 15:28 You might make it, you could. 15:31 It's possible, there's some potential here. 15:34 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of 15:39 yourselves. 15:41 Not of works, lest any man should boast, it's a gift of 15:43 God, not of works. 15:44 >>TY: My version says have been. 15:46 >>DAVID: Have been, exactly, you have been. 15:48 >>JAMES: I like Ephesians 2 also, but I like a previous 15:51 verse as much or better than that one, because I know that 15:55 one says, for by grace you've been saved and that not of 15:57 yourselves, it, the faith is the gift of God, whereas in 16:01 verse 5, it says, and the reason that I love it, the 16:05 whole chapter, but the reason I love this is because, 16:07 Ephesians 2 starts with how absolutely, totally depraved 16:12 and wretched and lost we are, we're absolutely lost and 16:14 depraved, while you were this way. 16:17 While you were, yes. 16:19 Even when we were dead in sin, he quickened us together. 16:22 That's prevenient grace, in my understanding. 16:25 He quickened us together, with Christ, by grace you are 16:28 saved. 16:29 And there's more to it than that, much more to it than 16:30 that, because you have this objective, you know, picture 16:34 of what God has done for us in Christ, and then, he goes on 16:38 to break that down in, you know, the rest of the verses. 16:41 So, same with Titus. 16:42 I love the fact that Titus is not just one verse. 16:45 There's a score of verses there that contrast God's 16:49 grace, it just doesn't come out of thin air, because 16:51 that's sometimes what we do. 16:53 Oh, oh, no, grace has the worst, it is accompanied with 16:59 the worst images of humanity that you can find in 17:03 scripture, the worst images, and there's grace. 17:05 Find the most wretched and there's grace. 17:08 That's where grace companies, that's where you find grace, 17:10 in the bible, that's where you find it. 17:11 I love that. 17:12 >>DAVID: Look at who grace is hanging out with. 17:14 >>JAMES: Yes. 17:15 Christ exemplifies that. 17:16 Christ exemplified that. 17:18 >>TY: We have to take a break, but... 17:20 >>DAVID: I hate these breaks. 17:23 >>TY: Well, we have to take the breaks, I don't know why. 17:25 Something goes on during the breaks. 17:27 >>DAVID: No, I like that. 17:28 >>TY: Something happen during the breaks, I don't know what 17:30 it is. 17:31 Alright, take a break, we'll come right back. 17:33 [Music] 17:44 >>The bible is a big book. 17:46 It's composed of 66 smaller books, written by more than 40 17:51 different authors. 17:53 It's easy to get bogged down in all the genealogies, 17:56 ancient history and intersecting characters with 17:59 unpronounceable names. 18:01 And yet, the bible is full of rich and powerful truths that 18:06 all of us need to understand. 18:08 Wouldn't you love to have an experienced tour guide take 18:12 you on a step-by-step journey through some of the most vital 18:16 and beautiful truths contained in the bible? 18:18 Well, now, it's here. 18:20 It's called Truth Link. 18:22 Truth Link is a groundbreaking new series of easy to 18:26 understand bible study guides that thousands of people 18:31 around the world are raving about. 18:33 Why all the excitement? 18:35 Because Truth Link systematically unfolds 27 life 18:40 transforming biblical topics, but not as a list of dry 18:46 theological facts. 18:47 Rather, Truth Link takes you on an engaging, biblical 18:52 expedition, demonstrating how every truth of scripture 18:56 reveals some facet of God's beautiful character. 19:01 Truth Link isn't just information, it's a spiritual 19:05 journey that will radically impact your life. 19:08 We would really love for you to have these bible study 19:12 guides because we know they will be a blessing to you. 19:16 You can get them by visiting truthlink.org or by calling 19:21 541-988-3333. 19:27 [Music] 19:34 >>TY: So, the reformers said that salvation is by grace 19:38 alone, and in saying that, they left no wiggle room for 19:43 merit whatsoever. 19:46 This merit idea, this idea that a human being, by his or 19:51 her actions somehow earns something with God, standing 19:56 position, has a claim, what Paul calls wages, actually, 20:01 says, don't call that grace, that's wages, that's a job, 20:04 and you're not qualified for that job, so don't even apply. 20:08 But this idea of merit has a horrible defect on our 20:16 perception of God's character. 20:18 And it produces, in human beings, a constant sense of 20:21 anxiety to earn God's favor, to do something to get right 20:27 with God in order to be in a position that God isn't 20:32 himself willing to confer upon us simply because of the 20:35 goodness of his heart. 20:37 And the entire Protestant reformation was based upon the 20:41 reformers pushing back on this idea of merit. 20:44 With Luther, it was indulgences that you could 20:46 actually pay money to the church, ultimately the idea 20:50 was to God through the church, and God is going to lessen 20:55 your time in purgatory or the time of your relatives or 20:58 loved ones in purgatory. 21:00 This is the most diabolical picture of God imaginable and 21:06 it's not just the Roman church that was teaching it or 21:11 promoting it. 21:12 The only reason the Roman church could teach and promote 21:15 it is because it's in us, it's in us, and I don't know what 21:20 you guys think of this, but I have a hunch that one of the 21:24 reasons it's in us is because grace necessarily requires 21:31 humility. 21:33 To receive salvation purely as a gift puts gratitude in my 21:39 heart for the giver, but there's a sense in which it 21:42 puts my head down in humility, because I am in utter need. 21:49 It's an admission. 21:50 >>JEFFERY: Somebody put it to me, they said, it's going on 21:54 record against yourself. 21:56 It's against yourself, it's recognizing, I have nothing. 22:01 >>DAVID: This is Peter in the boat when it's filling with 22:05 fish, depart from me, Lord, I am a sinful man. 22:08 It's, why are you still sticking around? 22:12 I am, you know what I am, what's going on there? 22:16 Why are you still here? 22:18 Woman, where are your accusers? 22:20 Right? 22:24 Sorry, James, I was talking there, what did you say? 22:26 >>JAMES: And yet, he's clinging to his feet, isn't 22:27 he? 22:28 I mean, that's just an incredible picture. 22:30 >>DAVID: And then, Jesus tells the parable, the one who says, 22:33 I'm glad I'm not like this fellow, you know, and then, 22:36 the publican who won't even, smiting his breast. 22:40 >>TY: It's like, depart from me, but I hope you don't. 22:43 >>JAMES: Jacob, wrestling. 22:44 I'm not letting you go 'til you bless me. 22:46 >>DAVID: Because he knew that was the only way. 22:48 >>TY: So, legalism as opposed to grace. 22:51 Legalism, in a sense, is really, a kind of 22:56 self-deceiving way by which we retain self as the center, 23:01 masquerading as reverence for God. 23:04 >>DAVID: Okay, you've gotta unpack that, because that's 23:05 huge. 23:06 >>TY: Yeah, so, if there's any purchasing power in my deeds 23:12 for salvation, there's a sense in which, at least on a 23:14 subconscious level, that God owes me. 23:17 God owes me something and you need to pay up because I've 23:22 done what I was supposed to do, now you need to give me 23:25 what is due to me, there's pride in that. 23:29 Self is retained as the center in that system. 23:34 >>DAVID: You've got something, James, and then, I'm gonna 23:36 read a quotation from an article I read recently. 23:39 >>JAMES: Alright, Matthew chapter 7, just, you may not 23:41 have read this verse this way before, but I just wanna read 23:44 it to you again and see if you're seeing it in the way 23:47 that Ty just explained it. 23:49 Not everyone, Matthew 7:21, not everyone that says unto 23:52 me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven 23:55 that he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 23:58 So, these are people that believed in God, they called 24:00 him Lord. 24:01 Many will say unto me in that day, many will say unto me, 24:04 Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, in thy 24:08 name cast out devils, in my name done many, what's the 24:12 next word? 24:13 Works. 24:15 Then, I will profess unto them, I never knew you, which 24:18 means they never knew him. 24:20 If he never, they didn't know him, depart from me. 24:23 >>DAVID: There's not an intimacy there. 24:24 >>JAMES: There's not an understanding of the 24:26 character, but there's works. 24:28 There's works, and they're saying these works, you owe 24:30 me, how come, you owe me, just the same point you're making 24:34 there. 24:35 You owe me. 24:36 So, there's, and Jesus here is speaking to the religious 24:38 people of his time, the religious leaders of his time. 24:40 >>DAVID: Now, that's a great way to see that text. 24:41 Clearly, if you just read that to someone, and they didn't 24:45 even know about scripture as such, you would say, what's 24:48 going on here relationally, and they would say, well, 24:50 these people feel like they're entitled to something. 24:53 I was gonna read this quotation, but you go. 24:55 'Cause it's on that very point, so if you're gonna stay 24:57 on that point, do it. 24:59 >>JEFFERY: It's actually a low view of God. 25:02 It's a low view of God's law. 25:05 Because those who are convinced that it is 25:09 impossible for them to bring any merit to the table or to 25:15 deserve any favor are those who have a low view of God, 25:20 right? 25:21 Those who think it's impossible have a high view of 25:24 God, and that's why there's not even an attempt, but the 25:27 fact that we would even attempt to be justified by 25:29 works implies that we have a low view of God, a low view of 25:34 his law that we would even think that we could, yeah, of 25:36 his holiness. 25:38 >>DAVID: And a higher than is appropriate view of our own, 25:42 our own moral standing. 25:44 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, 'cause I always thought legalism to be 25:46 a fixation on righteousness. 25:48 I always thought legalism to be, it's an overemphasis on 25:52 righteousness. 25:53 Now, I think it's an underemphasis, it's an 25:55 underemphasis. 25:57 Because if it was a high view of righteousness, legalism 26:01 would never show it's face. 26:03 It would never even... 26:05 >>TY: You'd have to modify the standard so that you can 26:06 imagine you can meet it. 26:08 >>JAMES: Yes, yes, and that's why Jesus came and said, but I 26:11 tell you, you've heard, but I tell you. 26:13 You've heard by I tell you. 26:14 >>JEFFERY: You're thinking it's out here, but it's up 26:15 here. 26:16 >>DAVID: So, this is an article that I read titled, 26:18 Justification, the Catholic Protestant Argument Over 26:21 Justification by a bunch of fellows, Guisler, McKenzie, 26:24 and Miller, and just listen to this, much criticism of the 26:27 Catholic view of justification revolves around the concept of 26:29 merit that was elevated by the counsel of Trent to the status 26:33 of infallible dogma. 26:35 While Catholics wish to remind us that the whole doctrine of 26:39 merit should be viewed in the context of grace, they 26:42 overlook the fact that scripture teaches that grace 26:44 and meritorious works are mutually exclusive, then 26:48 quotes Romans 11:6, which you quoted earlier. 26:50 The New Testament clearly speaks against obtaining 26:53 salvation as a reward or a wage for work done. 26:57 For the scriptures insist that gifts cannot be worked for, 27:00 only wages can, Romans 4:4-5. 27:03 Grace means unmerited favor and reward based on works is 27:08 merited, hence grace and works are no more coherent than is 27:13 unmerited merit. 27:15 Last one here. 27:17 Trent made it dogma that by his good works, the justified 27:21 man really acquires a claim. 27:24 Trent makes this dogma, counsel of Trent, in response 27:27 to the Protestant reformation. 27:29 By his good works, the justified man really acquires 27:32 a claim to supernatural reward from God and it is precisely 27:37 here, the article says, that the Catholics and Evangelicals 27:40 disagree. 27:41 That's the point of disagreement. 27:42 If you're gonna try to start, okay, similar, 'cause there's 27:44 a lot of agreement. 27:45 >>JAMES: There's a lot of agreement. 27:46 >>DAVID: Let's be honest. 27:47 You have agreement that all of humanity's in need of 27:49 salvation. 27:49 Point of agreement. 27:50 you have that there's depravity, agreement. 27:52 You have that salvation is a moral and a spiritual work, 27:56 agreement. 27:57 You have the fact that salvation is going somewhere, 27:58 escitologically, agreement. 28:00 You even have the idea that grace is the major point, 28:04 agreement, but the point of disagreement revolves around 28:08 this idea of merit. 28:09 Do we, in any sense, does the sinner, in any sense, acquire 28:14 a claim? 28:15 Even if it's a miniscule claim, an infinitesimal claim? 28:20 And the answer is, no. 28:22 The Protestants said, sola gracia, only grace. 28:26 Not mostly, not largely, not almost entirely, but only. 28:32 >>TY: And that sets the God of scripture apart from all other 28:34 gods, belief systems, religions in all of history, 28:39 because every other system of thought is based on merit. 28:44 God is genie in the bottle, god is a vending machine, you 28:48 put in the appropriate coinage, you get something in 28:52 return, it's all economics, it's all transaction. 28:57 Even in very popular versions of quote, unquote, the gospel, 29:02 I put it in quote marks because it's not the gospel, 29:04 in which the bible is reduced to a successful living manual, 29:12 where God wants you to have wealth and what this is all 29:18 about is getting you blessings, so position 29:22 yourself for the blessings that God wants to pour upon 29:25 you and if you're not blessed, well, there's a lack of faith 29:29 in your life and it all... 29:32 >>JAMES: And lack of giving, and trusting in God and you 29:34 can get blessed if you will do these specific things. 29:37 >>TY: You do this, and you will get that nicer car, 29:39 you'll get that nicer house, you'll get that better 29:41 paycheck. 29:42 If you'll put in, you'll get out, and a lot of what's being 29:46 called the gospel, the bible's been reduced to that, it's 29:49 been reduced to a pagan manual for successful living. 29:55 So, there's no story that's unfolding here. 29:58 >>DAVID: It's so funny when you say that. 29:59 Go ahead, finish your thought. 30:00 >>TY: There's no story unfolding here. 30:02 It's a bunch of verses where you just grab scriptures here 30:06 and there that say, blessing, blessing, blessing, blessing, 30:09 get, get, get, get. 30:11 >>DAVID: Apply them indiscriminately. 30:12 It's funny because people come to Jesus and they're like, 30:16 Jesus, we're gonna follow you, and Jesus' response is, I 30:19 don't have a home. 30:20 I don't have a place to lay my head. 30:22 Even, like, birds have nests and foxes have little holes 30:25 they crawl in. 30:26 You wanna see my possessions, you're looking at it. 30:29 And that's the Jesus that's gonna say, yeah, but my 30:31 followers, two Mercedes, two BMWs, bigger, really? 30:38 Is that the story? 30:40 >>TY: It's such an insulting view of God and salvation. 30:46 >>JEFFERY: There's nothing wrong with wealth or 30:49 with abundance. 30:50 >>TY: That's not what the story's about the point, 30:53 salvation isn't temporal, material 30:56 salvation, although there are material blessings to be had. 30:59 Honest labor, and you do put in and you get out. 31:03 >>DAVID: Not grace, though. 31:05 >>TY: Salvation's in a completely different category. 31:10 Everything in our culture, the educational system, the 31:12 professional system is merit based. 31:15 The educational system, it's about grades. 31:18 >>DAVID: It's a meritocracy. 31:19 >>TY: That's right. 31:20 You got to get a job, you have a resume, and your resume's 31:24 telling why you deserve the position, and then, when you 31:27 come to God, when you come to Jesus, the whole system is 31:31 upended and actually, the fact that we're fallen and unworthy 31:36 is what recommends, so, what's on the resume? 31:40 What's on the resume? 31:41 Total depravity. 31:42 >>JEFFERY: The fact that you're not qualified is the 31:44 thing that qualifies you. 31:45 >>TY: I'm not qualified for the job and Jesus says, you're 31:47 the one. 31:49 >>JAMES: And he exemplifies that again in his life. 31:51 He comes to this earth, he picks out his disciples, who 31:53 are they? 31:54 The Pharisees, the Sagisees, the scribes, the religious 31:57 leaders? 31:57 No, they're not qualified. 31:58 They're disqualified. 31:59 Who's qualified? 32:00 They're disqualified by their qualifications. 32:02 Who's qualified? 32:04 >>TY: I have a passage from scripture on grace that 32:09 doesn't use the word grace, but it's Jesus describing 32:12 grace in action and it's in the sermon on the Mount in 32:15 Matthew 5, where Jesus, I think, is describing a feature 32:20 of what James has been calling previnient grace, right? 32:24 And that is where Jesus says, okay, God's the kind of person 32:29 who makes the sun shine on the righteous and the wicked, the 32:32 rain comes on the righteous and the wicked. 32:34 Yeah, so, there's a sense in which we could say that the 32:41 whole world, whether you're a believer or unbeliever, 32:44 atheist, agnostic, every single person in this world is 32:48 surrounded by an atmosphere of grace as real as the air we 32:53 breathe. 32:54 Every time you take in a breath of oxygen that breath, 32:57 that breath of air is a gift of grace, on a temporal level. 33:02 Every time you take your, you eat a blueberry, every time 33:07 you eat a loaf of bread, it is stamped with the cross of 33:11 Christ in the sense that it's been purchased for you. 33:13 Now, scripture actually says that there is a sense in which 33:18 Jesus has saved all men, comma, especially those who 33:23 believe. 33:25 >>JAMES: 1 Timothy 4:10. 33:26 >>DAVID: I've always wrestled with that text. 33:27 >>JAMES: Wrestle no longer. 33:29 [Laughter] 33:31 >>DAVID: Deliver me from my wrestling. 33:33 >>JAMES: Acts chapter 17, verse 28 is my favorite, for 33:35 in him, we live and move and have our being. 33:40 Paul is talking to unbelievers right now. 33:42 And he's saying in him, you live and move and have your 33:45 beings. 33:45 Now, here's the issue. 33:46 This temporal life that we have right now that he's 33:49 talking about, he's not talking about eternal life, 33:51 he's talking about temporal life. 33:53 This temporal life that he's talking about comes to those 33:55 unbelievers by grace, by the cross. 33:59 The temporal life does. 34:00 In him, we live and move and have our being. 34:03 We would be dead now if it wasn't for Christ. 34:06 >>TY: We'd already be extinguished. 34:09 >>JAMES: We'd be dead. 34:10 >>DAVID: I get that, I get that, but you're saying that 34:14 that is the meaning of the text that God is the Savior of 34:17 all men, comma, especially those that believe. 34:20 >>JAMES: So, let's make that connection now. 34:22 >>DAVID: Remind me of where that text is. 34:23 >>JAMES: 1 Timothy 4:10. 34:25 Let's make that connection now. 34:26 So, Savior from what? 34:29 Savior from what? 34:31 Well, when we think of salvation, the first thing we 34:33 think about, in relation to salvation, the first thing we 34:35 think about is going to heaven, right? 34:39 But Jesus says the kingdom of God is right here, it's within 34:41 you. 34:43 The kingdom of God is not in meat and drink, et cetera, the 34:45 kingdom of God is in joy and love. 34:46 There are people on planet earth, every single person on 34:49 planet earth that has to some degree tasted the salvational 34:53 kingdom of God, the salvific kingdom of God, even if they 34:56 don't know it, because of Christ, because Christ has put 35:00 them in him. 35:02 And this is the powerful part, the sacrifice that it took to 35:06 give us temporal life is the same sacrifice it takes to 35:10 give eternal life. 35:11 It's the same sacrifice. 35:12 And what God is saying was, he's saying, you know this 35:14 temporal life that you have, as miserable as it may seem, 35:16 remember those little tastes of joy and peace, I would like 35:20 that to continue on for all eternity. 35:23 I would like for you to continue. 35:24 >>JEFFERY: So, especially those who believe, your point 35:28 is, there's this general experience that we are all 35:36 tasting. 35:37 We are all breathing the air of grace, but then there's the 35:41 especially, those who actually receive it actively. 35:45 >>DAVID: Those who know its source, is that the point? 35:46 >>JAMES: Those who will experience it eternally. 35:49 >>TY: In all of our best moments in life. 35:52 The laughter of our children. 35:54 >>DAVID: Yes. A beautiful symphony. 35:56 >>TY: Yeah, eating a tasty meal, listening to a beautiful 35:59 song, experiencing forgiveness from somebody in an 36:03 unbelieving home, where Jesus isn't even named, but you were 36:09 just forgiven. 36:10 All of those best moments of life are, in a sense, typical 36:14 or shadowing forth, the bigger reality of the 36:19 salvation that could pervade every aspect of our lives 36:22 through connection with Christ. 36:25 And the bible is full of this comparison, Savior of all men, 36:30 especially of those who believe is articulated by Paul 36:32 in another place as that you have been reconciled, we've 36:36 all been reconciled by God not counting men's sins against 36:41 them. 36:42 2 Corinthians 5, not imputing their sins unto them 36:46 universally. 36:49 Now, you be reconciled to God. 36:51 You be reconciled to me. 36:55 >>JAMES: In John 3:16, and God so loved the world that he 36:58 gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in 37:00 him, that's the especially part. 37:02 >>DAVID: Okay, so, I just wanna read this verse, just so 37:06 I'm sure I'm getting what you're saying. 37:08 Now, I get the concepts, but I wanna see it in this text. 37:11 So, 1 Timothy chapter 4, verse 9, this is a faithful 37:15 saying in worthy of all acceptance, for this end, we 37:19 both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living 37:22 God, hallelujah, who is the Savior of all men, especially 37:27 of those who believe. 37:28 Okay. 37:30 Just explain that phrase to me. 37:32 The Savior of all men, you're saying, everybody is 37:34 receiving, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. 37:38 Explain that to me, because I've always wondered about 37:40 that, it sounded weird to me. 37:43 >>JEFFERY: Everyone is experiencing the benefits of 37:44 grace, the fact that we're breathing, but especially 37:48 those who believe, those who are actually going to receive 37:54 the actual gift of salvation, that they will be 37:57 able to experience salvation through eternity. 38:01 That's what you keep reiterating. 38:03 >>TY: We have to take a break, we don't want to, but we have 38:06 to. 38:08 I'm watching the clock. 38:09 We'll take a break, we'll come back and then I'm gonna share 38:12 another scripture that I think answers that. 38:13 >>DAVID: Okay, great. 38:16 [Music] 38:26 Announcer: Truth is not merely a list of theological 38:29 facts, but rather the revelation of God's beautiful 38:32 love in Jesus Christ. 38:33 Truth Link is a series of bible study guides that 38:36 magnify God's love as the center of every bible 38:39 doctrine. 38:41 To receive your free copy of lesson one, call 877-585-1111 38:47 or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, 38:52 Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 38:55 Once again, to receive your free copy of Truth Link lesson 38:59 one, call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers, 39:04 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 39:12 [Music] 39:18 >>TY: Alright, so, right before the break, we were 39:20 looking at the Timothy text chapter, 1 Timothy, chapter 4, 39:23 verse 10, where Paul uses this language that admittedly, is a 39:27 little strange sounding to our ears, that Jesus is the Savior 39:30 of all men, that's a universal statement. 39:33 That alone sounds strange to our ears, if you just stop 39:36 right there, the Savior of all men. 39:38 That's not true. 39:39 Isn't it all, but he says, especially of those who 39:43 believe. 39:45 So, then, later on, in 2 Timothy, just to draw the 39:48 distinction here, in 2 Timothy chapter 1 and starting with 39:54 verse 9, speaking of Jesus and the gospel previously in verse 39:57 8, verse 9, who has saved us, has saved us, past tense, and 40:00 called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, 40:04 but according to his own purpose of grace, which was 40:08 given, was given, past tense, to us, where in Christ Jesus, 40:12 before time began, so it's an envelope, it's a portfolio, 40:16 it's just all there, in him, verse 10, but has now been 40:21 revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who 40:25 has abolished death and brought life and immortality 40:31 to light through the gospel. 40:33 So, I'm drawing a distinction here that's comparable to 40:36 Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 40:40 Savior of all men in a temporal sense, especially of 40:44 those who believe in an eternal sense, and now, I'm 40:47 suggesting that that's parallel to this, where he's 40:50 saying, he's brought two things to light, life, right 40:54 here and right now, temperately, and immortality. 40:56 He's holding these in contrast, David. 40:58 Life and immortality. 41:00 Life is something that we all enjoy, whether we believe in 41:03 Jesus or not ever. 41:05 And immortality is something that is only conferred upon 41:08 those who... 41:10 >>DAVID: Receive it, believe it. 41:11 >>JEFFERY: Because immortality is the same thing as life. 41:14 >>TY: It's super fun to believe this. 41:16 >>JEFFERY: It's the same thing as life, but it's only... 41:18 >>TY: It's the same thing. 41:20 >>DAVID: I don't think so. 41:22 >>JEFFERY: It is. 41:23 Life and immortality. 41:23 >>DAVID: I'm gonna push back on that. 41:25 >>JEFFERY: Life is the opposite of death. 41:26 >>DAVID: I get that, but just tell me if you like this or if 41:28 you hate this. 41:29 >>JEFFERY: I hate it. 41:30 >>DAVID: [Laughs] 41:30 >>TY: You don't even know... 41:32 >>DAVID: Just follow this, tell me if you like this. 41:34 Jesus is speaking in John chapter 5, verse 28-29, 41:37 somewhere around there, and he says, the hour is coming and 41:39 now is when all that are in the graves will hear the 41:42 voice. 41:43 And now is. 41:45 We are dead, Paul says in Ephesians 2, we are dead in 41:48 trespasses and sins. 41:50 Now, right now, people are living, they're dead. 41:52 So, we sometimes think of eternal life, this is my idea, 41:55 let me throw one more on there. 41:57 John 10:10, and this is, not life, the thief comes but to 42:01 kill and to steal, but I'm come that they might have life 42:03 and have it more abundantly. 42:04 So, I take that to mean that some people how are living, 42:06 biologically living, phisiologically living, 42:09 neurologically living, are actually not living the life 42:13 that God intended. 42:15 They're dead. 42:16 >>TY: They have biological life, but they don't have 42:17 zoe life. 42:18 >>DAVID: So, life, eternal life is not just a quantity of 42:25 years, it's a qualify of existence, and I know you 42:27 weren't thinking against that. 42:29 >>TY: And that's how it can start now. 42:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I love that. 42:32 And you might remember that Jesus on one occasion said, 42:34 hey, God is not the God of, God is the God of Abraham, 42:37 Isaac, and Jacob, he's not the God of the dead, but of the 42:39 living, and you're like, wait a minute, those are dead 42:41 people. 42:41 Yeah, those people are all dead. 42:43 Btu in the larger narrative of the way God sees the world, 42:47 they're sleeping. 42:48 They were living the quality of life that God intended for 42:51 us to live. 42:52 But there are people, oppressive, unkind, 42:55 unforgiving, hateful, you know, we have those lists of 42:58 scripture, you might be breathing, but you are 43:00 borrowing the air of grace to live a life of death. 43:05 >>TY: Jesus even said, David, to his disciples, at that time 43:09 right there in those moments, if you believe in me, you will 43:13 never die, and they all died. 43:15 You will never die and they all died. 43:17 So, Jesus had to be talking about the thing that you're 43:21 articulating right now. 43:23 >>JEFFERY: Did you guys quote Ephesians 2:1, and you he made 43:25 alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. 43:28 >>DAVID: We referenced it. 43:30 >>JEFFERY: They're alive, yet they're dead. 43:32 So, then, you're saying that the two categories of life and 43:36 immortality. 43:37 Life and immortality's the other thing. 43:41 So, life is just what, physical breathing 43:43 immortality, is this spiritual reality? 43:45 >>TY: And all the blessings that it entails. 43:46 >>DAVID: I might wreck this, but you could say something 43:49 like that life is given to all, comma, especially those 43:54 who are living. 43:56 I'm trying to do a little play on words there, 1 Timothy 43:58 4:10, so you have this whole like, everybody gets 44:00 salvation, but only the ones who receive it get it. 44:01 Everybody's living. 44:04 >>TY: I don't think that slaughters it at all, I think 44:06 that's helpful for me. 44:07 >>DAVID: That's cool, right? 44:08 This is like a dawning for me on... 44:09 >>JEFFERY: So, those who eventually, those who are lost 44:12 who don't participate in salvation through eternity, 44:16 they are what? 44:18 They are dead in the same sense that Jesus Christ... 44:21 >>DAVID: yeah, that's right, if they're alive right now, 44:23 they are from the biblical perspective, they are living a 44:26 life that's not a life. 44:27 Because life is not just a biological function. 44:29 Life is about, like you said, all those beautiful moments. 44:32 Forgiving and being forgiven. 44:34 Giving a $600 camera to somebody, seeing the birth of 44:37 your birth child and smelling them and not that time, not 44:41 when they're doing that thing, but just the smell of a baby, 44:43 their skin, their, the eating a mango, playing guitar with 44:47 your friends, you know what I'm saying? 44:49 Like, that's life as it was meant to be lived and enjoyed. 44:52 >>TY: Yeah, that's why, in the Greek language, David, there 44:56 were two words for life, not one. 44:58 There was biolife and zoe life. 45:00 Biolife is just biological existence. 45:03 >>JEFFERY: Breathing. 45:04 >>TY: Yeah, so, when Paul says in Ephesians 2, you are dead 45:08 in trespasses and sins, he's addressing people who are 45:11 biologically alive who can read the words and who can 45:13 hear what he's saying. 45:14 He's saying, you're dead living people. 45:18 You're biologically taking in oxygen, you're going, you're 45:22 waking up, you're going to work, you're coming home, but 45:25 you're not alive. 45:26 you're not alive with zoe life, with spiritual life. 45:29 You're not alive, you're not alive on a relational level 45:34 because you actions deal death in the way that you're doing 45:39 relationships, it's killing emotion, it's killing 45:42 affection, it's killing the capacity for love, and that's 45:47 the sense in which, ultimately Jesus is getting at this, when 45:52 he says in John 17:3, I'm come that you may have life, this 45:56 is eternal life, that they might know you the only true 46:01 God in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 46:04 Jesus defines eternal life in that text as knowing God, as a 46:07 psychological process. 46:09 >>DAVID: And that doesn't start at some time in the 46:11 future. 46:12 That could start right now. 46:13 >>TY: You have eternal life right now, while you're in the 46:16 process of biologically dying. 46:18 I'll die biologically in possession of eternal life, 46:22 then be resurrected and pick up right where I left off. 46:24 >>JAMES: So, just to add to this, going back to our text 46:29 in 2 Timothy, verse, 2 Timothy 1, verse 10, but now's made 46:33 manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ who 46:38 has abolished death and hath brought life and immortality 46:41 into light through the gospel. 46:42 So, he's brought this to light through the gospel. 46:45 This light on life and immortality has come through 46:48 the gospel. 46:49 Where unto, verse 11, I am appointed a preacher, an 46:52 apostle, and a teacher of who? 46:54 The Gentiles. 46:56 So, then, in Acts 17, he starts out here and he says, 46:58 you know that thing that you have, that unknown God? 47:01 Remember that? 47:02 Well, I wanna tell you, I wanna tell you about that guy. 47:05 That unknown God, what he's like. 47:07 God is, he made the world and all the things that are in it. 47:09 Everything he made, and he's not worshipped with men's 47:12 hands because he gives life and breath and all things. 47:15 See what he's doing right there? 47:17 He's disclosing, he's unfolding, he's unveiling God, 47:20 the character of God. 47:22 This is what God is really like, and in him, you live and 47:24 move and have your being. 47:26 You see that? 47:27 >>DAVID: This really is amazing grace. 47:29 >>TY: And he goes a step further in that passage, 47:30 James, he says, not only in him do you live and move and 47:33 have your being, but he goes on to say something to the 47:35 effect of God has for every person established 47:39 preappointed times. 47:41 You're born here, and I was born there and in other words, 47:44 providentially, God is orchestrating things in 47:47 people's temporal life, and then, it says, so that, 47:50 perchance, they might seek him. 47:52 Even though, even though, he's not far from any one of them. 47:55 >>JAMES: That's just this full picture. 47:58 >>DAVID: When you said that phrase earlier that we are 48:00 living in an atmosphere of grace as real as the air we 48:04 breathe. 48:06 So, then, the difference between the biolife and the 48:09 zoe life is an awareness. 48:12 Really, that's what we're talking about, we're talking 48:15 about waking up. 48:16 Seeing what's actually going on. 48:19 Right? 48:21 >>JEFFERY: I love the language, Timothy uses the 48:25 language, this idea of the awareness. 48:28 He says, come to your senses. 48:30 People who have been taken captive now come to their 48:32 senses. 48:34 That's in 2 Timothy 2:26, and also, the prodigal son, yeah, 48:40 remember, the story Christ, Jesus tells, it says, when he 48:42 came to his, some says came to himself or came to his senses. 48:48 He realized he was dead. 48:50 it says it numerous times in the passage. 48:52 He was dead, he was dead. 48:54 Now, he's alive. 48:56 >>TY: He woke up to the reality of the situation. 48:58 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, he woke up to the reality that, I'm not 49:00 really living, even though I'm breathing. 49:02 This is not really living. 49:04 >>DAVID: The passage says he was dead? 49:07 >>TY: My son who was dead, is alive. 49:09 >>DAVID: He was alive. 49:12 That's good stuff. 49:13 Okay, so, in the context of the reformation, then, this 49:16 sort of discovery that we're having right now, that's 49:18 what's happening. 49:20 These guys are just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, and then 49:22 they're looking at this whole hierarchical, manmade 49:25 tradition-based system, and they're coming alive to the 49:30 gospel and they are, sometimes, less than politely, 49:33 kicking against a system that has obviscated this great 49:39 truth of sola gracia from the view, their view and others' 49:42 view. 49:43 And they acted, understandingly, with vitriol, 49:46 and they were angry. 49:47 >>TY: We've been duped, we've been huly-scwagged and we just 49:51 realized the whole system has taken us. 49:55 >>JAMES: That's my story for sure. 49:56 Over and over again. 49:58 >>TY: Can I add one thing to this temporal life, spiritual 50:00 life thing coming alive? 50:02 Luther, in discovering the grace of God, okay, began to 50:08 say to people and to himself, well, if all of that's true, 50:13 then the common blessings of life should be enjoyed because 50:19 they're all gifts of grace. 50:20 So, he began to say things to the effect of, you know, once 50:24 I discovered the gospel, I began to enjoy food. 50:28 Whereas, before, food, was something... 50:29 >>DAVID: I'll tell you what else you'll begin to enjoy. 50:31 >>TY: Well, a woman named Katherina Venbora, that's 50:34 right. 50:35 >>DAVID: It's true, right? 50:37 >>TY: It's true. 50:38 So, I was gonna go there, you know, slowly, but the point is 50:44 that food was a threat prior to grace. 50:49 >>DAVID: Why? 50:50 >>TY: Because food has the potential to corrupt me by the 50:54 indulgence of my, it tastes so good. 50:56 We've gotta deny this, we've gotta turn away from it, 51:00 matrimonial relation, he was a celibate, he was committed to 51:05 a monk's life, but then, once grace enters the picture, 51:08 suddenly, your eyes are open, you're like, what, oxygen, 51:11 mountains, rivers, streams, a really well prepared meal that 51:17 just makes your taste buds scream? 51:20 The kiss of your little girl upon your cheek? 51:23 All of this stuff took on a whole new appearance. 51:26 This is all the gift of God. 51:29 I don't deserve any of it, but I'm gonna enjoy it now in 51:33 light of the fact that God has given it to me. 51:35 >>JAMES: Yes, and I love the perspective you're coming 51:37 from. 51:38 Not the perspective of well, I'm saved by grace, so I might 51:40 as well indulge my appetite, I'm saved by grace, so I might 51:42 as well. 51:43 No, but rather the perspective of, this is a gift and God 51:46 wants me to enjoy it. 51:47 I love that, because that also puts a little bit of a bound 51:50 on it, like, enjoy it like I'm not enjoying it anymore, I'm 51:52 getting too full, I'm not enjoying it anymore, I'm 51:54 indulging too much, you know what I'm saying? 51:55 It's on the level of this beautiful gift that we wanna 51:58 enjoy. 51:59 >>DAVID: When we receive the gift that God has intended us 52:03 to receive, life is awesome. 52:07 One of the critiques that the reformers would have as the 52:11 Protestant reformation would continue, with regards to 52:13 celibacy, they would say, it's, their critique was it's 52:18 unnatural and it's not the best state of man. 52:22 They were awakening to, hey, wait a minute, you know, 52:25 babies are not being delivered by storks. 52:27 Something is, this is a gift from God. 52:31 Human sexuality, human intimacy, human connection, 52:33 and even the family relations themselves. 52:35 But this is regarded as, virginity, celibacy, that's 52:39 the thing, but as we've mentioned, virginity is only 52:42 virtuous in the sense that it's preparation for the thing 52:45 that God made that's a good gift. 52:47 >>JAMES: Marriage is honorable. 52:49 >>DAVID: Marriage is honorable. 52:50 And so, as they're waking up to this, you couldn't, if you 52:54 have been kept from a strong sense of God's grace and his 53:00 goodness and the gifts that he has lavished upon us, and 53:03 then, you are running in like a child in a toy store, right, 53:07 you just, you're gonna be annoyed with the system, 53:10 right? 53:12 >>JAMES: And it's like we said earlier, I really love this, 53:14 someone said earlier, they said, everything God made in 53:16 the beginning was good except for one thing. 53:19 Everything was good, good, good, even very good, but what 53:22 was the one thing that wasn't good? 53:23 >>DAVID: It's not good that man should be alone. 53:25 >>JAMES: Yeah, I love that. 53:26 I just love that picture that God is giving us, because he's 53:29 restoring us. 53:30 You know, the word reformation, you know what 53:31 that means, what does the word reformation mean? 53:34 One of the definitions for reformation is renewal, 53:37 renewal. 53:38 God is renewing, he's restoring and renewing his 53:40 original purpose for man. 53:42 >>DAVID: Okay, so, check this out, when I baptize somebody, 53:44 we have a lot of baptisms in our local church and when we 53:46 baptize somebody, I say to them, look, there's a cool 53:48 thing that's happening here in baptism. 53:50 It's a birth and a death. 53:52 You have this whole death thing, you hold your breath, 53:53 you go under the water, it's like a sign of the, you know, 53:56 sensation of breath, you're buried, you come up. 53:57 But then, you also have this whole birth thing going on 54:00 where a child is in its mother's womb and it's in 54:03 water and then it comes out and it takes the first breath. 54:06 I say, we're gonna put you under the water and you're 54:08 gonna come up and when you take that breath, that first 54:11 gospel breath, you now live the rest of your life, you're 54:15 born again. 54:17 You're seeing through new eyes, you're breathing through 54:18 new lungs, you're speaking through a new mouth, you're 54:20 hearing with new ears. 54:21 you're the same person, but you are now seeing with new 54:25 eyes, hey, that'd be a great title for a book. 54:28 Oh, wait, you already wrote that book. 54:31 When did you write that book? 54:32 >>TY: That would've been in the year 1999 and it was 54:37 published in 2000. 54:38 >>DAVID: I love it. 54:39 Seeing With New Eyes. 54:42 Taking in God's amazing grace. 54:46 >>TY: So, grace is the sole means by which God saves. 54:51 That's where the Protestant reformers were landing. 54:55 Oh, got the guitar out. 54:57 >>DAVID: I got a little something, something for you. 54:59 >>TY: A little bit of background music while we're 55:00 making the final point. 55:02 >>DAVID: The appeal song. 55:03 >>JEFFERY: The altar call. 55:04 >>TY: There is no question at all in my mind that there are 55:07 people sitting in on this conversation with us who 55:11 desperately hunger and thirst to see that Gods' love and 55:18 grace and mercy cannot be earned, precisely because you 55:23 already have it. 55:24 God already loves you, God already has done something 55:29 monumental for you, for us, in Christ, there's nothing we can 55:34 do to earn it. 55:35 Nothing we can do to earn it. 55:37 >>DAVID: So... 55:39 [Strums guitar] 55:41 >>TY: Go David. 55:42 >>ALL: ♪ When we've been there ten thousand years, bright ♪ 55:50 ♪ shining as the sun. 55:57 ♪ We've no less days to sing God's praise then when we ♪ 56:08 ♪ first begun. 56:13 >>TY: Praise God, sola gracia. 56:16 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-18