Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000505A
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00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: The Protestant reformation wasn't a smooth 00:22 ride, these guys were in process, just like we're in 00:27 process, and they were coming out of some dark ages and they 00:31 were really, really dark. 00:33 So, I'm under the impression, see if you guys agree with this 00:37 that Luther and Calvin, for example, the other reformers 00:40 were involved as well, but Luther and Calvin basically 00:43 launched a revolution on the premise of their good theology 00:47 in spite of their bad theology. 00:49 >>DAVID: That's a good way to say it. 00:52 >>TY: Yeah, so they didn't have, they didn't have a very 00:58 clearly formulated, hey, this is the way it is from day one, 01:02 nail the 95 theses, this is all figured out, as we noted 01:06 earlier, we around this table at least, we're Protestants 01:10 who are celebrating Luther this year, he's our guy, and 01:14 yet, we wouldn't agree with much of the articulation in 01:21 the 95 theses, or even in his later works. 01:23 I mean, Martin Luther believed in a determinism, in a 01:31 predestination doctrine that led him to conclude that 01:34 whatever is must be the will of God. 01:37 At one point, he just straight up said, women are wives and 01:41 prostitutes, therefore God created women to be wives and 01:45 prostitutes. 01:46 Those are the parameters within which women are to 01:49 function by the sovereign will of God. 01:52 >>DAVID: And that would've been, just that comment on 01:54 women would've been just a function of the time socially, 01:57 culturally in which he lived as it was... 01:59 >>TY: But he was able to fit it into his theology. 02:02 He was able to roll with that kind of thing when it came to 02:06 the anti-baptists who he regarded as absolute heretics, 02:13 it wasn't very difficult for Luther, even as he's 02:16 proclaiming justification by faith, to say they should all 02:20 be executed for their heresy. 02:23 And so, these guys weren't, they weren't a fully formed 02:28 theology, they weren't fully formed human beings any more 02:31 than we are. 02:33 We're in process, we're learning, we need to humble 02:36 ourselves, as Luther was attempting to do and the 02:39 others were attempting to do. 02:41 We need to humble ourselves before the word of God and 02:42 before one another and to enter into dialogue that 02:46 produces greater and greater understanding and greater and 02:49 greater light. 02:51 So, that's the launching pad for this discussion, Calvinism 02:57 versus armenianism. 02:59 Calvinism is a doctrinal perspective that comes to us 03:04 from the Protestant reformation. 03:06 Sometimes, it's just called reformed theology because 03:09 those who hold it want to, very clearly identify it as 03:13 this is the thing, this is reformed theology. 03:16 This perspective is reformed theology. 03:19 Anything else, like armenianism is not reformed 03:24 theology. 03:25 And so, with Calvinism, we have a certain theological 03:32 paradigm on the table that has come down to us through the 03:37 Protestant reformation that we ourselves would push back on 03:40 in some regards and yet, we would honor, we would honor 03:45 Calvin, we would honor Luther for what we would regard to be 03:50 the incredibly necessary strides forward that they 03:54 made. 03:55 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's great, that's a really safe and 03:59 helpful articulation. 04:01 The idea that you would go incrementally through more 04:04 than a thousand years into what one writer called such 04:07 thick, anti-Christian darkness, and then, come out 04:11 in a decade or even a generation, it's 04:14 inconceivable. 04:15 So, like we all are, Calvin and Luther and other reformers 04:20 were products of their time, and for example, Luther, we 04:24 mentioned, was not setting out to set up Lutheranism or any 04:28 sort of denomination over and against or separate from the 04:31 Catholic church, just wasn't on the radar screen. 04:34 But, when that eventually happens, he finds it, this is 04:38 the way I say it, much easier to leave, and that was still 04:41 difficult, to leave the Roman church than it was to leave 04:44 Roman thinking, right? 04:47 So, there was still vestiges, residual elements and 04:50 artifacts of Roman thinking that inhabited his mind. 04:53 With Luther, with every reformer traceable probably 04:58 even us sitting at this table right now, but the things that 05:01 we don't see, we don't see. 05:02 We're blind to the things that we're blind to. 05:05 So, as Luther is making his way out, we celebrate all of 05:09 the positive contributions that we make, and we cannot, 05:12 in an anachronistic fashion, look back and hold him in 05:14 contempt for what he didn't do because he was a product of 05:18 his time. 05:19 >>JEFFERY: Just like if somebody looked back, should 05:21 time last hundreds of years into the future to those of us 05:23 here today, they would be able to do the same, they would 05:26 identify things that, through the benefit of time, 05:29 development and knowledge, we weren't there yet. 05:32 Our perspectives. 05:33 >>DAVID: In my sort of assessment, this is, you guys 05:36 can give me pushback on this, tell me what you think of it, 05:41 my assessment of the Lutheran and Calvinistic streams of the 05:45 reform, those streams of reform is that in some ways, 05:49 maybe not entirely, and I'm not a Calvinistic scholar or a 05:52 Lutheran scholar, but in some sense, these are reactions to 05:57 a system that had a very man-centered, priest-centered, 06:03 sacrament-centered theological structure. 06:06 So, the priests are doing a lot. 06:08 They're manipulating the Eucharist. 06:10 They are celebrating the confession, they're, you know, 06:14 saying, okay, rosaries, whatever. 06:15 So, you have this theological system where, as we talked 06:19 about in Daniel 8, the sanctuary and all of that, 06:21 there's a man at the center of this now. 06:23 I'm talking about individual parish, priests, and I see 06:27 Luther and especially Calvin saying, no, no, no, no, no. 06:31 No, there is a lot less man in this than has been said, in 06:36 fact, this is all what God is doing. 06:39 So, I see it as a pendulous overreaction. 06:42 Again, with the luxury of history perspective, it's easy 06:45 for me to say overreaction, but at least it was a reaction 06:49 to a very priestly man-made religious system. 06:54 >>JAMES: That's especially true in relation to grace. 06:58 Calvin had a real burden for grace because he felt that 07:01 grace was at the bottom of everything, whereas the 07:03 Catholic church, at this point, was allowing grace to 07:06 be the part of justification that brought a sinner to a 07:10 right standing with God, with no merit, but they were not 07:14 satisfied, right, with sanctification, or with anyone 07:19 who perhaps would apostatize from justification, then it 07:25 required merit to come back into that statute of 07:28 limitation, preparation, as well as sanctification. 07:31 Whereas Calvin, he came to the conclusion that grace was 07:37 irresistible, that if you actually even had a choice, if 07:41 you could actually choose grace, then that was a work. 07:45 And so, he went to that extreme opposite, you know, of 07:48 Catholicism, of merit this, merit that, whereas no, 07:50 there's nothing we can do. 07:52 We are totally depraved, so he believed in the understanding 07:55 of total depravity, which, you know, he's Augustinian, that 07:58 came down through, tweaked it a little bit, and therefore, 08:02 because God is sovereign, because God orchestrates all 08:05 things and because grace is the bottom of everything, the 08:09 foundation of everything, then even our choice, it's God. 08:14 God is sovereign, God is the one, there's no place for 08:16 human works, there's no place even for choice, which I think 08:19 led to a couple of other extremes. 08:21 >>JEFFERY: How error just inspires extremes, you know. 08:25 Like, if the truth is right here, then whenever it swings 08:28 it this way, people overreact, and swing it that way. 08:30 So, history's this long process of this. 08:33 >>JAMES: Well, it's the overreaction. 08:35 We overreact. 08:36 When you want to balance somebody else out, when that's 08:38 your goal, you have to swing, if they're unbalanced, you 08:41 have to swing the other way to balance them out. 08:44 And so, we've got to, I think, assume the center of truth 08:49 rather than the extremes or trying to weigh out, you know, 08:51 balance out the extremes. 08:52 >>DAVID: But in fairness, and I know we're not critiquing 08:55 here, as such, the Protestants were onto the way that you 09:00 would balance, and that was solace scriptura. 09:03 There has to be some standard, some canon by which we say yes 09:09 or no, up or down, correct or incorrect, close or not close, 09:13 and at least that was right, and to the degree that we 09:16 cling to solace scriptura, the idea that the answers are in 09:18 here somewhere, at least we agree on the playing field. 09:22 Right, so then, Calvin will have or Luther will have or 09:25 some other reformer will have his or her text and we can go 09:28 and say, yeah, yes that text, but I think this is a better 09:32 way to understand that text. 09:34 But, like, with the Catholicism, now post counsel 09:38 of Trent, right, in response, the counter-reformation, which 09:40 we'll deal with later, their way of dealing with that was 09:43 to say, tradition is actually the means by which we know 09:48 that we're interpreting scripture correctly. 09:50 >>TY: And there are those within the body of Christ, 09:53 within the church, who are qualified to interpret 09:56 scripture, and there are those who are not qualified. 09:58 >>DAVID: So, one of the most significant things that the 10:00 Protestant reformation did was what you might call the 10:03 democratization of scripture. 10:06 The priesthood of all believers. 10:08 It was the defederalizing, it's not all just there. 10:13 It's all of us now. 10:15 And there's some ups to that, yeah, you're right, there's 10:18 some ups to that and there's some downs to that and one 10:20 down is, well, now, lots of different people are coming to 10:22 the bible and reading for themselves, and it's unlikely 10:25 that everybody's gonna come to all truth. 10:28 So, you end up with these, you know, Calvin and Jacob is 10:31 armeniast and they're pulling and you know, is it this? 10:34 Is it this? 10:35 Maybe this is right, maybe this is right, maybe they're 10:37 both right in elements, and that's, this incremental, we 10:41 went in incrementally, and we're coming out 10:44 incrementally. 10:45 >>TY: There's no other way, without a divine snap of the 10:47 fingers where a miracle's performed where knowledge is 10:51 just downloaded into everybody's frontal lobe 10:53 simultaneously, there has to be a process of education. 10:58 I think that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the reformers gave us 11:06 two extremely important, there's more than two, but two 11:09 very important points that constitute a launching pad for 11:14 us, and that is, number one, salvation by grace alone, 11:18 through faith alone, in Christ alone, as opposed to through 11:23 the sacraments of the church, and number two, what they gave 11:27 to us was the priesthood of all believers. 11:31 You and I have access directly to God through scripture, by 11:36 the spirit, and not through the mediation of other 11:43 authority figures in the church, that's right. 11:45 So, they gave us those two insights, but then, within the 11:48 realm of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, 11:53 there would be differences between Arminius, for example, 11:58 and Calvin. 12:00 But really, there's a sense in which they're on the same page 12:03 at the beginning point, at the starting point. 12:06 They're coming out of the same thing. 12:09 >>JEFFERY: They're both assuming that we can both go 12:12 to the text and decipher and interpret. 12:14 >>DAVID: So, tell me if you like this or if you don't like 12:16 this, the real legacy that we should be rejoicing in, when 12:20 it comes to the reformers, is more about method than 12:23 content. 12:24 >>JAMES: Yes, I like that. 12:27 >>DAVID: They have passed onto us a methodology. 12:29 Content, now, don't get me wrong, they get a lot of 12:31 elements of content right, but our celebration of the 12:34 reformers is not their content, it's there method, 12:36 and their method is solace scriptura, one, number two, 12:40 the priesthood of all believers. 12:42 Universal access not based on, to me, that just helps me to 12:45 understand, to celebrate the reformers is not to set up a 12:48 tent or an ediphus near any one of them, to name ourselves 12:53 that, it's to take their methodology. 12:56 >>JEFFERY: Can I just say, they handed us the right, they 12:59 gave us the right to go to scripture for ourselves. 13:01 And we build from that. 13:03 >>JAMES: Biblically speaking, we've talked about covenant 13:07 and how this is a term that is used in the Old and New 13:10 Testament to describe God and to describe the plan of 13:13 salvation, to describe the relationship that he has 13:17 toward humanity, and I think it's interesting, in Hebrews 13:21 8, and verse 10, it's describing this covenant, this 13:25 new covenant that he's gonna make with us, and one of the 13:27 points he says here in verse 11 under the new covenant is, 13:30 and they shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man 13:33 his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they shall all know 13:37 me from the least to the greatest. 13:39 And then, if you just flip over from Hebrews to 1 John 13:42 chapter 2, verse 20, you have an unction from the Holy One 13:47 and you know all things, and then, you go down here to 13:51 verse 27, but the anointing of which you've received of him 13:54 abides in you and you need not that any man teach you, but 13:58 it's the same anointing that teaches you all things and 14:01 it's the truth and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, 14:05 you shall abide in him. 14:07 These two verses are expanding on this new covenant principle 14:11 that we don't need men to teach us. 14:14 Now, that doesn't exclude the verse you mentioned in an 14:16 earlier program where God has sent some of pastors and 14:19 teachers, but the point is this, this is how they 14:21 coalesce together, the point is this, yes, there are 14:23 pastors and teachers, but anyone watching this program 14:26 right now doesn't have to rely upon what we're saying. 14:29 The Holy Spirit is the teacher of every individual, we're 14:32 simply stirring up their minds to get into, like Borians, the 14:36 word of God, and then, as they get into the word of God and 14:38 they study the word of God, perhaps they've been doing 14:40 this, let's say, for 10 years, and then, they watch this and 14:42 they say, oh, yeah, they're right on, they're right on 14:44 because that's the same thing the Holy Spirit's been 14:46 teaching me. 14:47 Or let's say, we're off, oh, wait a minute, I need to write 14:49 them a letter because the Holy Spirit has taught me something 14:52 that they're not seeing right here and I need to send that. 14:55 Or, oh, wow, the Holy Spirit said some things that, I'm off 14:58 on this. 14:59 >>DAVID: Let me just give you a little pushback on that, 15:01 tell me what you think of this. 15:02 I have always understood these passages in 1 John to be 15:05 primarily around one idea, one, not different trues, hey, 15:10 you came, now, the Spirit does do that, I'm not denying that. 15:13 I've always understood what he's saying to be the great 15:15 truth that you are the son of God, you are the daughter of 15:18 God. 15:19 The preacher didn't teach you that, the evangelist didn't 15:21 teach you that, your Sunday school or Sabbath school 15:23 teacher didn't teach you that. 15:24 Jesus taught you that by his spirit and you know that. 15:26 >>JAMES: That's good. 15:27 >>DAVID: That's how I've understand that to be 15:29 basically that truth. 15:30 >>JAMES: That's the context of the scripture and text. 15:32 >>DAVID: And you're making application. 15:34 Gotcha. 15:35 >>JAMES: But, no, that's good. 15:36 >>JEFFERY: So, principle's the same. 15:37 >>DAVID: But the idea of what you're describing is exactly 15:38 right. 15:39 It's this democratization of access. 15:41 >>JAMES: The word is, yeah. 15:42 >>DAVID: You lost me there, I was too busy trying to be... 15:44 >>JAMES: No, go for yours. 15:46 >>DAVID: Well, I was just saying, at that point that 15:47 you're highlighting there is this idea of the 15:49 democratization of access to God. 15:51 We come, and I mean, think about, when John says, you 15:53 don't need a man to teach you, who would be included in that? 15:56 Himself. 15:59 Hey, Jesus can teach you that. 16:02 And this doesn't diminish the desire to go and get an 16:04 education, but the spirit of the reformers is to give us 16:09 access. 16:11 >>TY: Just, totally unrelated, I just remembered this thing 16:15 in Plato's republic where he says that wherever freedom or 16:21 a governmental structure of democracy occurs, it creates 16:25 the greatest variety of human beings because now people can 16:30 think for themselves, they're going to think for themselves. 16:34 So, part of the pushback on the Protestant reformation 16:37 that came, part of the counter reformation was, hey, if we 16:40 just let everybody think for themselves, there's gonna be 16:43 all this confusion. 16:45 >>DAVID: Who's policing this? 16:46 >>TY: Everybody needs to think the same way, we can't have 16:50 people having their own opinions about things. 16:53 But that's the nature of freedom. 16:55 So, you have to ask yourself, what is the better world to 16:58 have? 16:59 The world that Luther and Calvin were coming out of in 17:02 which everything was dictated to the individual, you believe 17:06 the way you believe because you're told to believe it, or 17:09 is it better to have a bunch of play that allows people to 17:16 come to realizations on their own? 17:19 Is it better, in other words to be wrong about 5 things and 17:24 right about let's say, 5 things, or is it better for us 17:29 to be right about 9 things because we were told to 17:34 believe those things? 17:36 In other words, is there something inherently valuable 17:40 about freedom itself? 17:42 Even if it produces a little bit of chaos in the process of 17:45 people coming to conclusions and you have all these 17:48 different strains of the Protestant reformation that 17:50 even Luther and Calvin couldn't handle. 17:52 They said, no. 17:54 >>JEFFERY: Without freedom, you would misuse the truth you 17:56 were fed. 17:57 >>TY: Yeah, and Plato says, wherever you have freedom, 17:59 you're gonna get the greatest variety of human beings, which 18:02 isn't natural. 18:03 [Laughter] 18:05 >>JAMES: Which is interesting 'cause we've already noted 18:07 that the reformers were, did bring with them a little bit 18:11 of that spirit of persecution. 18:13 Calvin fled from France and it was funny because he went to 18:22 Geneva, but he didn't stay there. 18:24 They kind of kicked him out, him and Pharaoh out. 18:26 But Pharaoh and Calvin were invited back, but Calvin 18:28 didn't wanna stay there. 18:29 Now, Pharaoh tries to convince him, we really need you here. 18:32 And he can't convince him, theologically, he's just like, 18:36 no, I need to be off in a retired place, writing, 18:40 whatever, and so Pharaoh actually starts cursing him 18:43 and telling him that he's gonna be cursed. 18:46 You're gonna be cursed, God's gonna curse you and his 18:48 conscience, Calvin's conscience can't bear that, 18:50 and so, he stays. 18:52 And they set up, in Geneva, what comes to be known as the 18:55 Protestant papacy. 18:56 [Laughter] 18:58 >>TY: That's where we got the Protestant work ethic. 19:01 >>JAMES: A guy comes there that doesn't believe that, I 19:03 think it's the trinity or something, and they actually 19:05 oversee him being burned at the stake, and they kick out 19:08 Roman Catholics, they kick them out and they make Geneva 19:11 a hub of Protestantism, but in the same sense, they're not 19:14 given the freedom, you know what I'm saying? 19:17 >>DAVID: It was easy, comparatively, to come out of 19:19 a Roman church, it was a different thing to come out of 19:22 Roman thinking. 19:23 >>TY: We have to take a break, but we'll come right back and 19:26 continue this discussion. 19:29 [Music] 19:42 >>This is the story of Niyima, who took a bus to the 19:45 doctor and found a piece of paper with words of hope about 19:50 Jesus, which was left by a church member who unpacked a 19:55 box that came from a truck which drove in from Durban 19:58 where a ship was docked that sailed from Seattle, loaded 20:03 with containers stacked high with millions of tracts, 20:07 trucked in from the Light Bearers Publishing House, 20:10 where 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21:27 Fifty dollars sends out 12,000, and $100 a month sends 21:31 out 24,000 messages of hope every year, all over the 21:37 world. 21:38 Empower Light Bearers to continue the story. 21:42 Send your gift through lightbearers.org, or by 21:46 calling 877-585-1111. 21:51 Who knew 5 little pennies could do so much? 21:54 [Music] 22:01 >>TY: Okay, I wanna begin this segment by just reading a 22:03 quotation from Martin Luther, where he's putting forth a 22:07 valiant effort to give God all the glory, okay? 22:12 And here's how he's going to do it, and Calvin did this as 22:14 well. 22:15 Quote, unquote, this is Luther. 22:16 With regards to God, and in all that bears upon salvation 22:21 and damnation, man has no free will, but is a captive, a 22:26 prisoner, a bond slave, either to the will of God or to the 22:31 will of Satan. 22:32 We do everything of necessity and nothing by free will, for 22:38 the power of free will is nil. 22:41 This is Luther, who's essentially saying, we've 22:45 gotta protect the sovereignty of God and we've gotta protect 22:48 the grace of God by making sure we drive the point home 22:52 that free will plays absolutely no part whatsoever 22:56 in a person's experience with God in salvation. 23:00 Now, we're of the opinion, I think we're of the opinion, 23:04 correct me if I'm wrong, that human free will does not play 23:08 a meritorious role in salvation, so we would agree, 23:13 in principle with what Calvin and Luther are aiming for, we 23:18 would say, there's no merit in the exercise of free will 23:21 because we believe that Arminius came up with an 23:27 innovation that didn't occur to Luther or Calvin and that 23:33 is that he said to Calvin and to Luther, it's true that 23:38 human beings are totally depraved, it's true that the 23:40 exercise of free will would be meritorious if it was 23:44 occurring without a divine work of grace prior to the 23:50 exercise of free will that ignites and motivates the 23:54 exercise of that free will. 23:55 >>JAMES: Now, when you say he said that to them, you mean he 23:57 said that to their theology, yeah, to their works. 23:59 He was for when Calvin died, but he read Calvin, and as he 24:04 was reading it, he wasn't reading it like, he was 24:07 reading it like, yes, this is Calvin, this is great stuff, 24:09 but then he just couldn't wrap his mind around it. 24:12 >>TY: Yeah. 24:13 So, there was developed, and everybody who's familiar with 24:17 these subjects is familiar with tulip as a word that was 24:23 used to allow Calvinism to be broken down as a doctrinal 24:28 system. 24:29 So, I think it'd be good to just bring that to the table 24:33 and discuss each of the points, the five points of 24:36 Calvinism. 24:37 So, what about the T in tulip, Jeffrey? 24:41 >>JEFFERY: Total depravity, and I think, as you mentioned, 24:45 Luther would be 100% on that as well, they would share 24:49 that, so that's not... 24:50 >>TY: How would they define total depravity, though? 24:53 Because we believe, don't we, believe that human beings are 24:57 fallen sinners, carnal, totally depraved. 25:01 >>DAVID: All have sinned and fallen short. 25:03 >>JEFFERY: The wage of sin is death. 25:05 They would say that the human is completely incapable of 25:09 anything. 25:11 >>TY: So, total depravity means no will, no free will. 25:15 >>JEFFERY: Your will itself is in bondage, depraved, and 25:20 chained. 25:22 >>JAMES: So, yeah. 25:25 >>TY: Okay, so, then, how would, later on, Arminius 25:30 respond to that? 25:32 Would he say, would he agree? 25:35 >>JAMES: Total depravity, also called radical corruption or 25:37 pervasive depravity is a theological doctrine derived 25:40 from Augustinian concept of original sin. 25:42 It is the teaching out of the consequence of the fall of 25:44 man. 25:45 Every person born into the world is enslaved to the 25:48 service of sin, and as a result of their fallen nature, 25:52 apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God. 25:57 That's how Arminius would respond, is utterly unable to 26:00 choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift 26:03 of salvation. 26:04 >>TY: Could you pause and define that big word? 26:05 >>JAMES: Yes. 26:07 So, prevenient grace, in other words, there is, in Calvin's 26:11 thinking, no way that we can choose because that's a work. 26:14 So, Arminius is reading that and he's saying, well, 26:17 actually, I think God's grace precedes, that's what it means 26:20 by prevenient, precedes our choosing and actually makes us 26:23 able to choose. 26:24 So, it's no longer a work. 26:26 It is the grace of God that is drawing us to make a choice 26:29 for God and that grace is actually drawing every single 26:33 person on planet earth. 26:34 So, every single person on planet earth is free to choose 26:37 or not choose to be saved or lost. 26:39 >>TY: Not because it's in them, but because God is... 26:42 >>JAMES: Because of the prevenient grace of God. 26:44 >>JEFFERY: So, it's probably semantics, but maybe pushback 26:47 would be regardless, whether it's before or after the grace 26:49 of God, the individual is still... 26:53 >>JAMES: Totally depraved. 26:54 >>JEFFERY: But the individual still chooses to receive or 26:57 reject that grace of God that allows him, he or she. 27:00 >>JAMES: Nope, the grace of God is what's drawing you to 27:04 choose or reject, not the grace of God, because the 27:06 grace of God is preceding any choice you're making. 27:09 >>JEFFERY: It's already active in your life. 27:11 And it's bringing you to the point where you can now, by 27:16 virtue of that grace decide to choose, to exercise your will, 27:20 to exercise faith. 27:22 >>JAMES: Right, it's the grace of God. 27:24 >>TY: What's the distinction you're making? 27:27 >>JEFFERY: I'm just exploring, where the hair splits there, 27:33 because at that point, there's a decision that's made, an act 27:37 of will and that's where the problem is. 27:41 >>JAMES: Let me read on. 27:43 The key to staying between the total depravity, embraced by 27:45 Calvin and the total depravity taught by Arminius is the 27:49 distinction between irresistible grace and 27:51 prevenient grace. 27:52 So, here's Calvin. 27:55 The grace of God can't be resisted, it can't be 27:58 resisted. 28:00 >>TY: Because you don't have free will. 28:01 >>JAMES: You don't have free will. 28:02 So, if God's grace is coming to you, it can't be resisted, 28:04 you're saved. 28:05 Therefore, if you're not saved, it's because sovereign 28:07 will has chosen for you not to be saved. 28:09 Arminius is saying, the grace of God comes to all, to make 28:13 us capable of choosing or not choosing. 28:16 Calvin is saying, no, the grace of God is irresistible, 28:19 it's irresistible grace versus prevenient grace. 28:22 >>DAVID: Jeffrey? 28:23 Happy with that? 28:24 >>TY: Okay, so, the T in tulip is total depravity, which for 28:29 Calvin, for Calvinism, is a complete negation of free 28:34 will. 28:35 The U is unconditional election. 28:38 >>DAVID: Which, one of the things you'll appreciate about 28:42 tulip and the five points of Calvinism is their logical 28:45 consistency. 28:46 If this, then this, and if this, then that. 28:50 Fiercely logical. 28:52 Now, whether or not they are robustly biblical in every 28:56 sort of permutation of it, that's another question, but 28:59 they're logical. 29:00 >>TY: You begin with a premise and as follows, as follows, as 29:02 follows. 29:04 >>DAVID: So, if you have total depravity, not the Arminius 29:05 version where you have prevenient grace, but you have 29:07 total depravity, you can't even muster the ability, if 29:11 that's the case, well, if you're going to be elect, 29:14 saved, it would have to be unconditional. 29:16 In other words, it couldn't be conditioned on anything you 29:19 did. 29:20 It would be something God did. 29:21 So, unconditional election follows naturally, even 29:25 inevitably from the idea of total depravity. 29:28 It's logical. 29:29 >>TY: And to Calvin's credit, to Luther's credit as well, 29:34 they're trying to protect the grace of God as the only means 29:38 of salvation and to completely decimate any human merit. 29:42 Which, Arminius would agree with, which we would agree 29:47 with, that it is by grace alone, a hard, radical, alone. 29:54 Grace through faith alone. 29:56 >>DAVID: And I would even say that God's election, okay, 29:59 just as an example, as a case in point, if you ask me if I 30:02 believe in total depravity, the answer is yes, as long as 30:05 you allow me to qualify biblically what I mean by 30:08 that. 30:09 If you ask me if I believe in unconditional election, my 30:11 answer is, yes, right? 30:14 'Cause God elects all to salvation based on his 30:19 goodness, his initiative, his plan of salvation to which we 30:22 respond. 30:23 So, if you allow me or us to define these terms, we could 30:29 say yes to most of them, not the next one, so L is limited 30:37 atonement. 30:38 Limited atonement. 30:39 >>TY: Well, L and I. 30:40 >>DAVID: Limited atonement's this idea, to follow the 30:44 logical stream, it makes good sense. 30:47 If God knows in advance who are going to be saved, elect 30:50 by virtue of his sovereignly choosing them, then it doesn't 30:54 make sense to say that Jesus died for everyone, including 30:58 those who he knew would be lost. 31:00 If he had died for them, they would be saved because grace 31:03 is irresistible. 31:04 So, there are those that were created for whom the atonement 31:08 was not executed. 31:10 Therefore, the atonement is limited to the elect. 31:13 Now, this is the point where I can say yes to total depravity 31:16 as long as I am allowed to wrap my language around that, 31:18 yes to unconditional election, limited atonement, no. 31:24 >>TY: And why not? 31:25 >>DAVID: Well, because I just think... 31:28 >>TY: Is there scripture explicitly...? 31:30 >>DAVID: Okay, here's the question I have, is there 31:34 scripture the other way? 31:36 I mean, I'm asking out of ignorance here, I confess 31:40 that, but like, John 3:16. 31:43 Yes or no? 31:44 >>TY: For God so loved the world... 31:46 >>DAVID: That he gave his only begotten Son that who, and 31:48 then, you know, Jesus in, what is it? 31:50 In Matthew 25, depart from me, ye cursed to everlasting fire 31:53 prepared for the devil and his angels. 31:55 God is not willing that any should perish, but that all 31:57 should come to repentance. 31:58 >>JAMES: 2 Peter 3:9. 32:00 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, but, God is not willing that any should 32:03 perish, but that all should come to repentance, that's 32:05 describing the desire of God. 32:08 God would rather it be the case that everyone were saved, 32:14 that doesn't necessarily say. 32:17 >>JAMES: The verse is God so loved the world that he gave 32:19 his only begotten Son, that's the part. 32:22 >>TY: What's your point? 32:24 >>JEFFERY: I was just making the point that there's a 32:28 distinction between what God would like to be the case, 32:31 somebody could say, well, that's not the same thing as whom God 32:35 elected to be saved. 32:36 >>DAVID: I agree with that, I'm still not, is that a 32:40 pushback against what...? 32:41 >>JEFFERY: Never mind, never mind, never mind. 32:43 >>DAVID: Okay. 32:44 >>TY: You're saying maybe God does desire all to be saved, 2 32:49 Peter, but that he's only elected, which is different 32:54 than his desire. 32:55 >>DAVID: Why would he elect something...? 32:57 >>JEFFERY: I don't know, I'm simply limiting the language 33:00 for the text. 33:02 It probably doesn't follow, I'm just, I'm basically 33:04 asking, is it possible... 33:05 >>DAVID: You're being careful, I get that. 33:07 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, just being careful, is it possible for 33:10 those two things to be not mutually exclusive? 33:15 >>DAVID: I think the passages that are used... 33:17 >>JEFFERY: The answer could be no, I'm just asking, is it 33:19 possible? 33:20 >>DAVID: I think the passages, you know, we're using texts 33:22 that are clearly universal in scope, right? 33:26 For God so loved the world. 33:27 I think the passages that are used by our Calvinistic 33:30 friends or those that incline themselves that way would be 33:33 passages like Romans chapter 9 and the idea that you know, 33:37 Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated. 33:39 And you know, some are made as vessels of wrath and some are 33:42 made of, you know, there are, I'm not suggesting that they 33:44 don't have any scriptural basis, I just saying that, on 33:46 the whole, it's hard for me to get my, it's impossible for me 33:52 to get my mind around the idea that God elected for certain 33:58 people to be saved to the exclusion of others. 34:04 >>TY: That says something about the character of God. 34:06 >>DAVID: How can it not? 34:07 That's Arminius's point. 34:09 Arminius's point, his critique of Calvinism was wait a 34:11 minute, how, in some sense, is God not responsible for sin 34:15 and for damnation? 34:17 He couldn't trace that, he said, wait a minute, I'm 34:19 confused, isn't it some level. 34:21 >>JAMES: Well, John Wesley takes it even further. 34:23 >>JEFFERY: Let me just bring up John 3:16, 'cause you 34:25 quoted it, to ask the same question I asked before. 34:28 Again, shoot it down, I'm not stating this is the case, I'm 34:30 posing a question. 34:31 John 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his 34:35 only begotten Son that whosoever, we're saying 34:37 whosoever, the world, that's pretty, that's everybody. 34:40 So, is it possible that whosoever, is it referring to 34:46 those that have been elected? 34:47 >>DAVID: That is the answer. 34:49 >>JEFFERY: So, then, they might say, well, John 3:16 34:52 doesn't really contradict limited atonement, limited 34:56 atonement is just stating a fact, but God may... 35:00 >>DAVID: No, you're exactly correct. 35:02 That is the response. 35:03 I have held evangelistic meetings, two, in Grand 35:06 Rapids, Michigan, which Grand Rapids, Michigan, is the, 35:09 Calvin College is there, the headquarters of the Reformed 35:13 Church of America is there, I have sat, well, Chad Cruiser, 35:17 a mutual friend of ours, like, that is the answer. 35:19 I've asked numerous people from a Calvinistic perspective 35:22 on this point, John 3:16, they say, when you see world, I see 35:26 whoever believes and whoever believes is the elects. 35:29 But to me, okay, just take the theology, just set it here for 35:34 a second. 35:35 My big question is, is Arminius's question and mine's 35:37 even a little broader still, I think, and that is, what does 35:40 it say about God? 35:42 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, exactly. 35:43 >>JAMES: So, going back two verses in John chapter 3:14, 35:45 as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so 35:47 must the Son of man be lifted up that whosoever, no world 35:50 here, believes in him shall not perish but have 35:53 everlasting life. 35:54 Now, you take that verse and compare it with 2 Peter 3, 35:57 verse 9, God's not suffering toward us, he's not willing 36:01 that any would perish, but that all would come to 36:03 repentance. 36:04 Perish and perish are the key words here that are connected. 36:06 You see what I'm saying? 36:08 So, when you look at scripture with a preconceived thought, 36:14 you are gonna read the verse a certain way. 36:15 >>DAVID: This is true for all of us. 36:17 >>JAMES: It is, it's true for all of us. 36:18 When you look at it and you just let it lay out the way it 36:20 is, then it becomes much bigger, and that's what 36:23 Arminius did. 36:24 He started looking and he started saying, wait a minute, 36:26 and this really helped him and John Wesley to answer the 36:29 question of free will in relation to maintaining that 36:32 God... 36:33 >>DAVID: The sovereignty of God. 36:34 >>JAMES: Yes. 36:35 >>DAVID: So, that's the U, that's the L, limited 36:37 atonement. 36:38 >>TY: Right. 36:39 And then is I, which is irresistible grace. 36:42 >>JAMES: Which, we've talked about that. 36:44 >>DAVID: The idea that those that are elect will be drawn 36:47 to God, they will, it is irresistibly the case because 36:50 God is sovereignly elected them to salvation. 36:53 This is, yeah, this is logical, again, you have to 36:56 admire the logical consistency here. 36:58 And then, finally, the P, the perseverance of the saints. 37:01 Those that are elect unconditionally and are 37:06 irresistibly drawn to God, will persevere and be saved. 37:10 >>TY: Once saved, always saved. 37:11 >>DAVID: We would say, that's the colloquial way of saying 37:13 it, once saved, always saved. 37:14 So, if you follow that through, total depravity, 37:17 unconditional election, unlimited atonement, 37:19 irresistible grace, and then, finally, perseverance of the 37:21 saints, it's logical. 37:24 The question is, is it biblical, and then, for me, 37:29 the big question is, is it biblical what does it say about 37:31 God's character? 37:33 And I can just speak very briefly here, 37:35 autobiographically, the first person that, like overtly 37:38 witnessed to me, as a non-believer. 37:41 I was a purple haired, punk rocker working at Rapid City, 37:43 South Dakota's premier snowboarding/mountain bike 37:46 shop, PJ's Adventure Sport, and my friend from high school 37:50 came in, Tim Schu, starts talking to me about climbing 37:52 and backpacking and all of that, and then, he 37:55 transitioned, he was a well-known Christian, and he 37:56 was a friend that lived just down the hill from me and he 37:58 starts talking. 37:59 I'm 19, maybe 20, he's the same age, we graduated from 38:01 high school the same year, and he starts witnessing to me, 38:03 and as he's witnessing to me and as he's talking to me, I 38:06 ask him, I just had two questions for this whole 38:08 Christian thing. 38:10 Number one, what about the Muslims, the Hindus, the Jews, 38:13 all the people who don't know what you know, and then, 38:15 number two, what about eternal conscious torment? 38:18 If you can clear that up for me, and his answers were, you 38:21 know, God bless him, he was emphatic, he was non, he 38:25 wasn't ambiguous, he was non-negotiable, he said, those 38:29 people will, they will be unsaved if they don't say that 38:33 Jesus is their personal savior. 38:34 They are not God's elect. 38:36 God is elected, so that was, he was emphatic on that, and 38:39 then, the eternal conscious torment, just gotta suck it 38:41 up, this redowns to the glory of God. 38:44 And in a moment, I was not a theologian, I couldn't have 38:46 told you who John Calvin was, I didn't know anything about 38:48 tulip, but emotionally, psychologically, and 38:51 intellectually, shut down. 38:54 Thank you very much, Jesus saves, God bless you, I'll see 38:56 you out climbing, but I'm not, I am not, I'm telling you, 39:01 experientially, that is exactly what happened to me, I 39:04 am not responding to that God. 39:06 And I'm still, to this day, not responding to that God. 39:09 And you know, props to him, props to Tim for coming in and 39:12 trying to witness to the purple haired punk rocker, 39:14 good for him, but his answers, absolutely unmoving, did not 39:19 move me emotionally, psychologically, until, no. 39:22 >>TY: When we come back after the break, I'll share with you 39:25 a quotation from a very prominent figure in American 39:29 history who had the same exact response that you had, so 39:35 let's just take a break and we'll come right back. 39:37 [Music] 39:50 Announcer: The Light Bearers Story is a short award-winning 39:52 video that gives an inside look at one of the boldest and 39:55 most effective missionary ventures of our time. 39:58 You will see how multiple millions of gospel 40:00 publications are flooding the nations free of charge by 40:04 surprisingly simple means. 40:06 For your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, call 40:09 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 40:14 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:21 Once again, for your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, 40:24 call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers 40:29 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:36 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 40:39 [Music] 40:47 >>TY: David, your experience is the same experience that 40:50 many people have had in response to the combination of 40:54 two ideas. 40:55 One, that God unilaterally predetermines who's going to 41:00 heaven and who's going to hell, who's saved, who's lost, 41:02 and to be lost means eternal conscious torment. 41:07 It's difficult to conceive of anything more emotionally 41:14 unpalatable than to say that the God of the universe is the 41:17 kind of God who doesn't just predetermine who's saved and 41:21 lost, but he actually has created some people in order 41:27 for them to be tortured for all eternity, and this, we're 41:32 told, is for his glory. 41:35 But his glory, and it's good news, but his glory is 41:38 inscrutable, meaning don't try to figure it out, God's 41:41 sovereign, sit down and believe it. 41:44 >>DAVID: You're the pot. 41:46 >>TY: you're the pot, you don't have questions for the 41:48 potter, okay? 41:49 Thomas Jefferson, in a correspondence with John Adams 41:53 had this to say, and it's just a very insightful statement 41:58 that he had in this letter. 42:00 He says, I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. 42:04 He puts lower case g there. 42:06 I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. 42:10 He was indeed an atheist, which I can never be. 42:16 He calls John Calvin an atheist. 42:21 Now, he's not ignorant, he hasn't missed the boat, he's 42:25 not lacking information, listen, he says, I can never 42:28 join Calvin in addressing his god, he was an atheist, which 42:30 I can never be, or rather, now he's going to explain what he 42:33 meant, or rather, his religion was daemonism, what we would 42:37 call demonism, wow, that's strong. 42:40 This is Thomas Jefferson, this isn't me. 42:42 If ever a man worshipped a false god, Calvin did. 42:48 The being, the being described in his five points, that's 42:52 what we've just gone through, tulip, the being described in 42:55 his five points is not the God you and I, you and I, you, 43:00 John Adams, and I, Thomas Jefferson, acknowledge and 43:03 adore. 43:05 We worship... 43:07 >>DAVID: Adore is a great word. 43:08 >>TY: Yeah, the creator and benevolent governor of the 43:11 world, but rather, yeah, benevolent governor of the 43:15 world, but rather Calvin's God is a daemon or a malignant 43:20 spirit. 43:21 It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all than 43:26 to blaspheme him in the atrocious attributes of 43:30 Calvin. 43:31 The value of deism, that is the existence of God, the 43:36 acknowledgement of a god who exists, but is detached and 43:39 has nothing to do with us, the value of deism in its last in 43:43 American ambit, was that it prevented confessional 43:48 religion from driving human beings into atheism as its 43:52 only alternative. 43:53 Do you hear what he's saying here? 43:56 >>JAMES: He was the champion of choice, of freedom of will. 44:01 >>DAVID: Thomas Jefferson? 44:02 >>JAMES: Yeah. 44:03 >>DAVID: Oh, he was the primary author of the... 44:05 >>TY: He inscribed the gospel in those founding documents. 44:09 But what he's saying, even though it's very strong, 44:12 because I don't think any of us around this table believe 44:14 that our Calvinist friends, and we have Calvinist friends, 44:18 that they're worshipping demons. 44:21 No, they're worshipping the same God that we're 44:24 worshipping and we honor their convictions on these points. 44:31 But that doesn't detract from the point that you made in 44:34 your little testimony there about what happened with you 44:35 when you encountered Calvinism in those two points, and it 44:40 doesn't detract from the fact that someone like Thomas 44:43 Jefferson was having a visceral, emotional reaction 44:47 against the idea that God predetermines who's going to 44:51 heaven and who's going to hell, and you have no choice 44:54 in the matter and hell is eternal torment. 44:56 You put those two things together and it's pretty 44:58 scary. 45:00 And then, he's making the point, because deism is kind 45:02 of a new thing on the market of religion. 45:06 And he's saying, well, deism does have its value, at least 45:09 it prevented all of us from becoming atheists. 45:11 That's what he's saying. 45:13 >>JAMES: And that's coming out of the French revolution. 45:17 >>TY: He's saying, I'd rather believe that God is distant 45:21 and uninvolved, but still keep God in existence than 45:24 completely rule him out of existence. 45:26 >>DAVID: For a champion of freedom such as Thomas 45:28 Jefferson was, the idea that freedom is nonexistent, or at 45:32 best, illusory, it's just unattainable, it's 45:35 unacceptable. 45:36 And you know, it's funny because you read sentence 45:38 number one, Jeffrey's like, that's strong. 45:40 You read sentence number two, Jeffrey's like, that's strong. 45:42 You read sentence number three, he's like, that's 45:44 strong. 45:45 I mean, it was strong. 45:46 >>JEFFERY: I was thinking that even Voltaire, because you 45:49 remember the Lisbon earthquake? 45:50 >>TY: I mean, I wasn't there, but I remember the historical 45:52 record. 45:53 >>JEFFERY: He wrote this poem in response to that, mocking 45:56 the concept that this is of God, because everything is of 45:59 God. 46:01 And then he wrote this book, Condide, really famous little 46:03 novel, and the whole thing is a polemic against a world... 46:07 >>TY: In which God calls all the shots. 46:09 >>JEFFERY: So, you have, you know, this giant representing, 46:14 you know, secular philosophy, and he's having an allergic 46:18 reaction, as described by Jefferson, that's kind of 46:24 heavy. 46:25 >>JAMES: I think it'd be good just to look at a little bit 46:27 more of the history here as it relates to Wesley, because 46:29 something really interesting took place as this developed. 46:33 Wesley, of course, became the champion of Armenism, yeah, 46:37 and his brother Charles, but he was connected with another 46:41 fellow by the name of George Whitefield, they became 46:43 Methodists because they had this method of bible study and 46:48 devotion in the mornings. 46:49 >>DAVID: It was actually a term of derision. 46:50 >>JAMES: It was. 46:51 And they turned into a positive attribute, yeah. 46:53 And George Whitefield and John Wesley worked together, they 46:59 went to America together, they worked together, they became, 47:01 both became Methodists, but they separated over this 47:06 issue, George Whitefield, yep, George Whitefield was a strong 47:10 Calvinist and Charles Wesley was a strong Armenist and when 47:14 they went to America, John Wesley preached a sermon 47:17 against Calvinism and in that sermon, he said that those who 47:22 believe, this is the way he said it, he said, attacking 47:26 the Calvinistic understanding of predestination as 47:28 blasphemous, as it represented God as worse than the devil. 47:36 That was John, and George is listening, and George asked 47:41 him not to repeat it, not to publish it, yeah, they were 47:47 friends, as he did not want a dispute, but Wesley published 47:50 it anyway. 47:51 So, they separated. 47:53 And then, because they were good friends, they got back 47:57 together again. 47:58 They continued their friendship, and then, here's 48:01 what happens, it says that in time, their friendship's 48:06 together, their theology is separate, but they're friends, 48:09 in time, someone comes to George Whitefield and he says, 48:13 hey, George, he says, do you think that you will see Wesley 48:20 in heaven? 48:21 Do you think you'll see him in heaven? 48:23 'Cause you know, this is... 48:24 >>DAVID: They're divided doctrinally. 48:26 >>JAMES: Wesley said the God you serve is the devil. 48:28 Do you think you'll see him? 48:30 And Whitefield responds and he says, I fear not. 48:34 I fear not. 48:35 For he will be so near the eternal throne and we will be 48:42 at such a distance that we shall hardly get sight of him. 48:46 >>DAVID: What a response. 48:47 >>TY: You know what would've been really, really beautiful? 48:49 If Wesley had said that about Whitefield. 48:51 [Laughter] 48:52 Maybe he would have, I don't know. 48:54 >>JAMES: I would've hoped, since they were friends, that 48:57 attitude and spirit that Wesley had actually, not just 49:02 reciprocal, but actually nurtured this attitude. 49:05 In other words, we've just talked about some pretty 49:08 serious stuff, some pretty heavy stuff. 49:10 People listening, they're probably strong Calvinists, 49:14 and we are Armenist. 49:15 Armenians. 49:19 This is the spirit that we need to carry. 49:21 This is... 49:23 >>TY: Even more than a spirit, he actually believed that 49:25 Wesley would be saved. 49:26 >>JAMES: Yeah, this is the attitude that we need to have, 49:29 this is the way that we need to look at each other, not 49:31 just Calvinists and Armenians, but Catholics and Buddhists 49:35 and Hindus and atheists, assuming the best, and hoping, 49:39 it reminds me of this poem, and the theology here may be a 49:43 little different than we're used to, but it goes like this, I 49:45 dreamed death came the other night and heaven's gates swung 49:48 wide, and with kindly grace, an angel ushered me inside. 49:52 That's the only way we're getting in, by the way. 49:54 But there, to my astonishment stood folks I'd known on 49:58 earth. 49:59 Some I judged and labeled unfit or of little worth. 50:02 Indignant words came to my lips, but never were set free. 50:08 Every face showed stunned surprise, no one expected me. 50:12 >>TY: [Laughter] 50:14 I love that. 50:15 >>JAMES: I wanna go back to your story. 50:19 I wanna go back to the story about how you recoiled from 50:24 Calvinism and yet, somehow, here you are. 50:28 >>DAVID: Well, okay, so three years later, because I was a 50:32 vegetarian, vegan kid, 23 years old, purple hair punk 50:37 rocker, and a vegetarian restaurant opens up in my 50:40 town, and it was run by Tom and Mary Burnt and they had 50:44 somebody that worked there occasionally and regularly was 50:47 there, his name was Joshua Marco, he was studying 50:49 electrical engineering at the local university in Rapid 50:53 City, South Dakota. 50:55 And I would just go in and ask questions, just you know me, 50:57 I'm a talker, so I'm talking to them about things, and at 51:00 one point, I'm asking questions about their 51:02 religion, about God, etcetera, and Mary says to me, would you 51:06 like to take bible studies? 51:09 So, I say, sure, I'm up for anything, I'll take bible 51:12 studies. 51:13 And so, a week or so later, she sets up bible studies, not 51:16 with me and her. 51:17 I think I actually thought they were gonna be with her, 51:19 but she set them up with this fellow Josh that had come 51:22 around, and interestingly enough, like Tim that 51:25 witnessed to me, Josh was also a rock climber, 'cause that 51:27 was my life at the time, I was just a rock climbing maniac 51:29 and skateboarding, but mainly rock climbing at that point. 51:32 So, I sit down in this bible study with Josh, and I just 51:35 had the same two questions for him that I had for Tim. 51:39 And I fully expected the identical answers. 51:42 I'm there, it's like, okay, look, I'll come in, I love 51:45 your food, I'm happy to sort of, you know, yeah, I'll do 51:48 you a favor, take this little bible study, and so, I say to 51:51 him, basically the same thing, I don't remember the exact 51:53 articulation, but it was the same two questions. 51:55 Number one, what about all these people, these 51:58 non-Christian people, whether Hindus or Muslims or Jews or 52:01 atheists or whatever, Sikhs, what about them? 52:05 Number one, and number tow, what about this whole eternal 52:07 conscience torment thing? 52:09 So, to my astonishment, in answer to the first question, 52:12 he's like, well, let me show you in scripture. 52:14 So, he's got a bible there, and he takes me to Romans 52:16 chapter 2, when the Gentiles, who do not have a law-abiding 52:18 nature, the things contained in the law... 52:20 >>JAMES: Love those verses. 52:21 nature, the things contained in the law... 52:23 >>JAMES: Love those verses. 52:26 >>DAVID: That's in the bible? 52:28 And then he takes me to James, what is it, 4:17, for him who 52:30 knows good and does it not, to him, it is sin. 52:31 Okay, well, what about the hell thing? 52:36 And then, he just gives me this like 4 or 5, 6 text bible 52:38 study, starting with John 3:16, for God so loved the 52:41 world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever 52:43 believes in him should not perish. 52:45 He starts there, then he does Romans 6:23, the wages of sin 52:48 is death, gives me this 5, 6, 7 text bible study. 52:53 Scales like fall from my eyes, not literally, but 52:55 figuratively, and in that moment, in that second, that 52:58 was probably about a 30 minute interaction, instantaneously, 53:02 the God of scripture that I was totally sealed off to, is 53:06 now credible, viable, and it would be 6 months and I was 53:13 baptized as a follower of Jesus. 53:16 So, speaking autobiographically, I can resonate 53:19 with, maybe, no, I wouldn't use Wesley's exact language, 53:23 but I resonate with Wesley, I resonate with Jefferson. 53:27 I just don't see it biblically. 53:30 And now, 20 years on, 20 years on, having read scripture 53:34 through again and again and again and again, I can see 53:36 that the point of the five points of Calvinism, I get it, 53:40 to protect the grace of God, I get it, but I think the 53:43 doctrinal system is insufficient. 53:47 I think it's inadequate, and it still raises such 53:49 unanswerable questions about God's essential nature and 53:54 character. 53:55 >>TY: And that's a primary issue, isn't it? 53:57 What kind of God is portrayed in the theological system? 54:01 And the response, generally, not always, but the response 54:05 generally from Calvin, from Luther was, this is God we're 54:09 talking about, how dare you ask. 54:13 So, God's sovereignty even blocks off the potential for 54:17 probing the questions. 54:18 God chooses to do what he's going to do, his wisdom is 54:21 inscrutable, you'll never comprehend it, this is what 54:25 God is doing and you're a mere creature, you don't question 54:30 God. 54:31 >>JEFFERY: We should connect this to the train of thought 54:32 that we've been building on, right? 54:34 We began with the Hebrew conception of reality and the 54:37 Hebrew worldview, and we've basically described the 54:42 transition from that to a Greek view, how does this 54:45 conversation play into that narrative that we've been 54:50 building? 54:51 Because this is just basically an illustration, this is one 54:56 manifestation, yeah, an instance, a manifestation of 54:59 this bigger issue that we've been talking about of this 55:03 biblical, Hebrew way of looking at reality. 55:06 And losing that. 55:09 >>TY: Well, we only have one minute left to answer that big 55:11 question, so we're gonna have to take it up next time, but 55:14 go for it, David. 55:15 >>DAVID: My view is this, both Luther and Calvin read Paul 55:20 and the other biblical writers, but especially Paul 55:23 through the lens of their own times, assuming, quite 55:27 incorrectly that Paul's enemies were as their own. 55:30 So, they are reading a first century text, in the case of 55:33 the New Testament, through 16th century eyes. 55:35 The call for us today is to read a first century text, in 55:39 so far as its possible for us, through first century eyes. 55:42 >>TY: And I'll go a step further and say that Luther 55:46 and Calvin, both of whom were ardent devoted students of 55:50 Augustine, were reading Romans and Paul through Augustinian 55:56 eyes, and Augustine himself was a devoted student of the 56:02 writings of Plato, and so, there's a lineage of thought 56:05 there, but we're gonna have to explore that in a lot greater 56:08 detail next time. 56:10 This has been a really fun discussion, thanks guys. 56:13 >>JAMES: Good way to finish up. 56:15 [Music] 56:25 蛂usic] |
Revised 2018-01-17