[Music]
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[Music]
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>>TY: The Protestant
reformation wasn't a smooth
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ride, these guys were in
process, just like we're in
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process, and they were coming
out of some dark ages and they
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were really, really dark.
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So, I'm under the impression,
see if you guys agree with this
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that Luther and Calvin, for
example, the other reformers
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were involved as well, but
Luther and Calvin basically
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launched a revolution on the
premise of their good theology
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in spite of their bad theology.
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>>DAVID: That's a
good way to say it.
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>>TY: Yeah, so they didn't
have, they didn't have a very
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clearly formulated, hey, this
is the way it is from day one,
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nail the 95 theses, this is
all figured out, as we noted
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earlier, we around this table
at least, we're Protestants
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who are celebrating Luther
this year, he's our guy, and
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yet, we wouldn't agree
with much of the articulation in
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the 95 theses, or
even in his later works.
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I mean, Martin Luther
believed in a determinism, in a
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predestination doctrine
that led him to conclude that
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whatever is must
be the will of God.
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At one point, he just straight
up said, women are wives and
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prostitutes, therefore God
created women to be wives and
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prostitutes.
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Those are the parameters
within which women are to
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function by the
sovereign will of God.
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>>DAVID: And that would've
been, just that comment on
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women would've been just a
function of the time socially,
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culturally in which
he lived as it was...
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>>TY: But he was able to
fit it into his theology.
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He was able to roll with that
kind of thing when it came to
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the anti-baptists who he
regarded as absolute heretics,
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it wasn't very difficult
for Luther, even as he's
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proclaiming justification by
faith, to say they should all
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be executed for their heresy.
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And so, these guys weren't,
they weren't a fully formed
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theology, they weren't fully
formed human beings any more
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than we are.
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We're in process, we're
learning, we need to humble
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ourselves, as Luther
was attempting to do and the
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others were attempting to do.
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We need to humble ourselves
before the word of God and
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before one another and
to enter into dialogue that
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produces greater and greater
understanding and greater and
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greater light.
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So, that's the launching pad
for this discussion, Calvinism
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versus armenianism.
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Calvinism is a doctrinal
perspective that comes to us
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from the Protestant reformation.
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Sometimes, it's just
called reformed theology because
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those who hold it want to,
very clearly identify it as
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this is the thing,
this is reformed theology.
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This perspective
is reformed theology.
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Anything else, like
armenianism is not reformed
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theology.
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And so, with Calvinism,
we have a certain theological
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paradigm on the table that
has come down to us through the
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Protestant reformation that
we ourselves would push back on
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in some regards and yet,
we would honor, we would honor
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Calvin, we would honor Luther
for what we would regard to be
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the incredibly necessary
strides forward that they
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made.
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>>DAVID: Yeah, that's
great, that's a really safe and
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helpful articulation.
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The idea that you would
go incrementally through more
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than a thousand years into
what one writer called such
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thick, anti-Christian
darkness, and then, come out
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in a decade or
even a generation, it's
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inconceivable.
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So, like we all are, Calvin
and Luther and other reformers
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were products of their time,
and for example, Luther, we
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mentioned, was not setting
out to set up Lutheranism or any
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sort of denomination over
and against or separate from the
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Catholic church, just
wasn't on the radar screen.
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But, when that eventually
happens, he finds it, this is
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the way I say it, much easier
to leave, and that was still
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difficult, to leave the Roman
church than it was to leave
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Roman thinking, right?
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So, there was still
vestiges, residual elements and
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artifacts of Roman thinking
that inhabited his mind.
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With Luther, with every
reformer traceable probably
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even us sitting at this table
right now, but the things that
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we don't see, we don't see.
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We're blind to the
things that we're blind to.
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So, as Luther is making his
way out, we celebrate all of
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the positive contributions
that we make, and we cannot,
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in an anachronistic fashion,
look back and hold him in
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contempt for what he didn't
do because he was a product of
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his time.
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>>JEFFERY: Just like if
somebody looked back, should
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time last hundreds of years
into the future to those of us
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here today, they would be
able to do the same, they would
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identify things that,
through the benefit of time,
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development and
knowledge, we weren't there yet.
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Our perspectives.
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>>DAVID: In my sort of
assessment, this is, you guys
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can give me pushback on this,
tell me what you think of it,
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my assessment of the Lutheran
and Calvinistic streams of the
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reform, those streams of
reform is that in some ways,
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maybe not entirely, and I'm
not a Calvinistic scholar or a
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Lutheran scholar, but in some
sense, these are reactions to
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a system that had a very
man-centered, priest-centered,
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sacrament-centered
theological structure.
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So, the priests are doing a lot.
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They're
manipulating the Eucharist.
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They are celebrating the
confession, they're, you know,
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saying, okay,
rosaries, whatever.
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So, you have this theological
system where, as we talked
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about in Daniel 8, the
sanctuary and all of that,
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there's a man at
the center of this now.
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I'm talking about individual
parish, priests, and I see
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Luther and especially Calvin
saying, no, no, no, no, no.
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No, there is a lot less man
in this than has been said, in
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fact, this is all
what God is doing.
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So, I see it as a
pendulous overreaction.
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Again, with the luxury of
history perspective, it's easy
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for me to say overreaction,
but at least it was a reaction
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to a very priestly
man-made religious system.
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>>JAMES: That's especially
true in relation to grace.
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Calvin had a real burden
for grace because he felt that
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grace was at the bottom
of everything, whereas the
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Catholic church, at this
point, was allowing grace to
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be the part of justification
that brought a sinner to a
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right standing with God,
with no merit, but they were not
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satisfied, right, with
sanctification, or with anyone
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who perhaps would apostatize
from justification, then it
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required merit to come
back into that statute of
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limitation, preparation,
as well as sanctification.
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Whereas Calvin, he came to
the conclusion that grace was
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irresistible, that if you
actually even had a choice, if
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you could actually choose
grace, then that was a work.
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And so, he went to that
extreme opposite, you know, of
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Catholicism, of merit
this, merit that, whereas no,
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there's nothing we can do.
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We are totally depraved, so
he believed in the understanding
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of total depravity, which,
you know, he's Augustinian, that
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came down through, tweaked
it a little bit, and therefore,
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because God is sovereign,
because God orchestrates all
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things and because grace is
the bottom of everything, the
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foundation of everything,
then even our choice, it's God.
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God is sovereign, God is
the one, there's no place for
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human works, there's no place
even for choice, which I think
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led to a couple
of other extremes.
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>>JEFFERY: How error just
inspires extremes, you know.
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Like, if the truth is right
here, then whenever it swings
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it this way, people overreact,
and swing it that way.
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So, history's this
long process of this.
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>>JAMES: Well,
it's the overreaction.
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We overreact.
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When you want to balance
somebody else out, when that's
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your goal, you have to swing,
if they're unbalanced, you
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have to swing the other
way to balance them out.
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And so, we've got to, I think,
assume the center of truth
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rather than the extremes or
trying to weigh out, you know,
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balance out the extremes.
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>>DAVID: But in fairness,
and I know we're not critiquing
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here, as such, the Protestants
were onto the way that you
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would balance, and
that was solace scriptura.
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There has to be some standard,
some canon by which we say yes
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or no, up or down, correct or
incorrect, close or not close,
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and at least that was
right, and to the degree that we
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cling to solace scriptura,
the idea that the answers are in
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here somewhere, at least
we agree on the playing field.
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Right, so then, Calvin
will have or Luther will have or
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some other reformer will have
his or her text and we can go
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and say, yeah, yes that text,
but I think this is a better
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way to understand that text.
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But, like, with the
Catholicism, now post counsel
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of Trent, right, in response,
the counter-reformation, which
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we'll deal with later, their
way of dealing with that was
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to say, tradition is actually
the means by which we know
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that we're interpreting
scripture correctly.
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>>TY: And there are those
within the body of Christ,
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within the church, who
are qualified to interpret
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scripture, and there are
those who are not qualified.
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>>DAVID: So, one of the
most significant things that the
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Protestant reformation did
was what you might call the
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democratization of scripture.
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The priesthood of all believers.
00:10:06.20\00:10:08.64
It was the defederalizing,
it's not all just there.
00:10:08.64\00:10:13.01
It's all of us now.
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And there's some ups to that,
yeah, you're right, there's
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some ups to that and there's
some downs to that and one
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down is, well, now, lots of
different people are coming to
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the bible and reading for
themselves, and it's unlikely
00:10:22.82\00:10:25.42
that everybody's
gonna come to all truth.
00:10:25.42\00:10:28.12
So, you end up with these,
you know, Calvin and Jacob is
00:10:28.12\00:10:31.46
armeniast and they're pulling
and you know, is it this?
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Is it this?
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Maybe this is right, maybe
this is right, maybe they're
00:10:35.83\00:10:37.40
both right in elements, and
that's, this incremental, we
00:10:37.40\00:10:41.20
went in incrementally,
and we're coming out
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incrementally.
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>>TY: There's no other way,
without a divine snap of the
00:10:45.17\00:10:47.94
fingers where a miracle's
performed where knowledge is
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just downloaded into
everybody's frontal lobe
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simultaneously, there has
to be a process of education.
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I think that Luther, Calvin,
Zwingli, the reformers gave us
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two extremely important,
there's more than two, but two
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very important points that
constitute a launching pad for
00:11:09.30\00:11:14.84
us, and that is, number
one, salvation by grace alone,
00:11:14.84\00:11:18.51
through faith alone, in Christ
alone, as opposed to through
00:11:18.51\00:11:23.95
the sacraments of the church,
and number two, what they gave
00:11:23.95\00:11:27.85
to us was the
priesthood of all believers.
00:11:27.85\00:11:31.22
You and I have access directly
to God through scripture, by
00:11:31.22\00:11:36.02
the spirit, and not
through the mediation of other
00:11:36.02\00:11:43.20
authority figures in
the church, that's right.
00:11:43.20\00:11:45.37
So, they gave us those two
insights, but then, within the
00:11:45.37\00:11:48.90
realm of salvation by grace
through faith in Christ alone,
00:11:48.90\00:11:53.71
there would be differences
between Arminius, for example,
00:11:53.71\00:11:58.88
and Calvin.
00:11:58.88\00:12:00.65
But really, there's a sense in
which they're on the same page
00:12:00.65\00:12:03.59
at the beginning
point, at the starting point.
00:12:03.59\00:12:06.02
They're coming
out of the same thing.
00:12:06.02\00:12:09.32
>>JEFFERY: They're both
assuming that we can both go
00:12:09.32\00:12:12.06
to the text and
decipher and interpret.
00:12:12.06\00:12:14.83
>>DAVID: So, tell me if you
like this or if you don't like
00:12:14.83\00:12:16.80
this, the real legacy that
we should be rejoicing in, when
00:12:16.80\00:12:20.74
it comes to the reformers,
is more about method than
00:12:20.74\00:12:23.77
content.
00:12:23.77\00:12:24.77
>>JAMES: Yes, I like that.
00:12:24.77\00:12:27.64
>>DAVID: They have
passed onto us a methodology.
00:12:27.64\00:12:29.88
Content, now, don't get
me wrong, they get a lot of
00:12:29.88\00:12:31.88
elements of content right,
but our celebration of the
00:12:31.88\00:12:34.35
reformers is not their
content, it's there method,
00:12:34.35\00:12:36.79
and their method is solace
scriptura, one, number two,
00:12:36.79\00:12:40.39
the priesthood of all believers.
00:12:40.39\00:12:42.39
Universal access not based
on, to me, that just helps me to
00:12:42.39\00:12:45.69
understand, to celebrate
the reformers is not to set up a
00:12:45.69\00:12:48.73
tent or an ediphus near any
one of them, to name ourselves
00:12:48.73\00:12:53.80
that, it's to
take their methodology.
00:12:53.80\00:12:56.64
>>JEFFERY: Can I just say,
they handed us the right, they
00:12:56.64\00:12:59.57
gave us the right to go
to scripture for ourselves.
00:12:59.57\00:13:01.84
And we build from that.
00:13:01.84\00:13:03.75
>>JAMES: Biblically speaking,
we've talked about covenant
00:13:03.75\00:13:07.25
and how this is a term
that is used in the Old and New
00:13:07.25\00:13:10.65
Testament to describe God
and to describe the plan of
00:13:10.65\00:13:13.89
salvation, to describe
the relationship that he has
00:13:13.89\00:13:17.86
toward humanity, and I think
it's interesting, in Hebrews
00:13:17.86\00:13:21.46
8, and verse 10, it's
describing this covenant, this
00:13:21.46\00:13:25.23
new covenant that he's gonna
make with us, and one of the
00:13:25.23\00:13:27.24
points he says here in verse
11 under the new covenant is,
00:13:27.24\00:13:30.57
and they shall not teach every
man his neighbor and every man
00:13:30.57\00:13:33.68
his brother, saying, know the
Lord, for they shall all know
00:13:33.68\00:13:37.48
me from the
least to the greatest.
00:13:37.48\00:13:39.78
And then, if you just flip
over from Hebrews to 1 John
00:13:39.78\00:13:42.92
chapter 2, verse 20, you have
an unction from the Holy One
00:13:42.92\00:13:47.96
and you know all things,
and then, you go down here to
00:13:47.96\00:13:51.49
verse 27, but the anointing
of which you've received of him
00:13:51.49\00:13:54.73
abides in you and you need
not that any man teach you, but
00:13:54.73\00:13:58.53
it's the same anointing
that teaches you all things and
00:13:58.53\00:14:01.37
it's the truth and is no lie,
and even as it has taught you,
00:14:01.37\00:14:05.71
you shall abide in him.
00:14:05.71\00:14:07.14
These two verses are expanding
on this new covenant principle
00:14:07.14\00:14:11.68
that we don't
need men to teach us.
00:14:11.68\00:14:14.15
Now, that doesn't exclude
the verse you mentioned in an
00:14:14.15\00:14:16.58
earlier program where God
has sent some of pastors and
00:14:16.58\00:14:19.29
teachers, but the point
is this, this is how they
00:14:19.29\00:14:21.36
coalesce together, the
point is this, yes, there are
00:14:21.36\00:14:23.83
pastors and teachers, but
anyone watching this program
00:14:23.83\00:14:26.49
right now doesn't have to
rely upon what we're saying.
00:14:26.49\00:14:29.56
The Holy Spirit is the teacher
of every individual, we're
00:14:29.56\00:14:32.13
simply stirring up their minds
to get into, like Borians, the
00:14:32.13\00:14:36.07
word of God, and then, as they
get into the word of God and
00:14:36.07\00:14:38.54
they study the word of
God, perhaps they've been doing
00:14:38.54\00:14:40.74
this, let's say, for 10 years,
and then, they watch this and
00:14:40.74\00:14:42.74
they say, oh, yeah, they're
right on, they're right on
00:14:42.74\00:14:44.75
because that's the same
thing the Holy Spirit's been
00:14:44.75\00:14:46.75
teaching me.
00:14:46.75\00:14:47.95
Or let's say, we're off, oh,
wait a minute, I need to write
00:14:47.95\00:14:49.88
them a letter because the Holy
Spirit has taught me something
00:14:49.88\00:14:52.15
that they're not seeing right
here and I need to send that.
00:14:52.15\00:14:55.66
Or, oh, wow, the Holy Spirit
said some things that, I'm off
00:14:55.66\00:14:58.36
on this.
00:14:58.36\00:14:59.53
>>DAVID: Let me just give
you a little pushback on that,
00:14:59.53\00:15:01.33
tell me what you think of this.
00:15:01.33\00:15:02.66
I have always understood
these passages in 1 John to be
00:15:02.66\00:15:05.43
primarily around one idea,
one, not different trues, hey,
00:15:05.43\00:15:10.24
you came, now, the Spirit does
do that, I'm not denying that.
00:15:10.24\00:15:13.01
I've always understood
what he's saying to be the great
00:15:13.01\00:15:15.24
truth that you are the son
of God, you are the daughter of
00:15:15.24\00:15:18.48
God.
00:15:18.48\00:15:19.68
The preacher didn't teach
you that, the evangelist didn't
00:15:19.68\00:15:21.48
teach you that, your
Sunday school or Sabbath school
00:15:21.48\00:15:23.49
teacher didn't teach you that.
00:15:23.49\00:15:24.62
Jesus taught you that by
his spirit and you know that.
00:15:24.62\00:15:26.55
>>JAMES: That's good.
00:15:26.55\00:15:27.52
>>DAVID: That's how
I've understand that to be
00:15:27.52\00:15:29.56
basically that truth.
00:15:29.56\00:15:30.66
>>JAMES: That's the context
of the scripture and text.
00:15:30.66\00:15:32.93
>>DAVID: And
you're making application.
00:15:32.93\00:15:34.13
Gotcha.
00:15:34.13\00:15:35.26
>>JAMES: But, no, that's good.
00:15:35.26\00:15:36.10
>>JEFFERY: So,
principle's the same.
00:15:36.10\00:15:37.30
>>DAVID: But the idea of what
you're describing is exactly
00:15:37.30\00:15:38.30
right.
00:15:38.30\00:15:39.10
It's this
democratization of access.
00:15:39.10\00:15:41.37
>>JAMES: The word is, yeah.
00:15:41.37\00:15:42.97
>>DAVID: You lost me there,
I was too busy trying to be...
00:15:42.97\00:15:44.87
>>JAMES: No, go for yours.
00:15:44.87\00:15:46.14
>>DAVID: Well, I was just
saying, at that point that
00:15:46.14\00:15:47.24
you're highlighting
there is this idea of the
00:15:47.24\00:15:49.24
democratization
of access to God.
00:15:49.24\00:15:51.15
We come, and I mean,
think about, when John says, you
00:15:51.15\00:15:53.98
don't need a man to teach you,
who would be included in that?
00:15:53.98\00:15:56.72
Himself.
00:15:56.72\00:15:59.12
Hey, Jesus can teach you that.
00:15:59.12\00:16:02.92
And this doesn't diminish
the desire to go and get an
00:16:02.92\00:16:04.86
education, but the spirit
of the reformers is to give us
00:16:04.86\00:16:09.63
access.
00:16:09.63\00:16:11.60
>>TY: Just, totally unrelated,
I just remembered this thing
00:16:11.60\00:16:15.20
in Plato's republic where he
says that wherever freedom or
00:16:15.20\00:16:21.81
a governmental structure of
democracy occurs, it creates
00:16:21.81\00:16:25.65
the greatest variety of human
beings because now people can
00:16:25.65\00:16:30.75
think for themselves, they're
going to think for themselves.
00:16:30.75\00:16:34.69
So, part of the pushback
on the Protestant reformation
00:16:34.69\00:16:37.36
that came, part of the counter
reformation was, hey, if we
00:16:37.36\00:16:40.93
just let everybody think
for themselves, there's gonna be
00:16:40.93\00:16:43.83
all this confusion.
00:16:43.83\00:16:45.13
>>DAVID: Who's policing this?
00:16:45.13\00:16:46.33
>>TY: Everybody needs to think
the same way, we can't have
00:16:46.33\00:16:50.07
people having their
own opinions about things.
00:16:50.07\00:16:53.64
But that's the
nature of freedom.
00:16:53.64\00:16:55.78
So, you have to ask yourself,
what is the better world to
00:16:55.78\00:16:58.45
have?
00:16:58.45\00:16:59.58
The world that Luther and
Calvin were coming out of in
00:16:59.58\00:17:02.85
which everything was dictated
to the individual, you believe
00:17:02.85\00:17:06.99
the way you believe because
you're told to believe it, or
00:17:06.99\00:17:09.56
is it better to have a bunch
of play that allows people to
00:17:09.56\00:17:16.20
come to
realizations on their own?
00:17:16.20\00:17:19.13
Is it better, in other words
to be wrong about 5 things and
00:17:19.13\00:17:24.21
right about let's say, 5
things, or is it better for us
00:17:24.21\00:17:29.58
to be right about 9
things because we were told to
00:17:29.58\00:17:34.75
believe those things?
00:17:34.75\00:17:36.22
In other words, is there
something inherently valuable
00:17:36.22\00:17:40.26
about freedom itself?
00:17:40.26\00:17:42.29
Even if it produces a little
bit of chaos in the process of
00:17:42.29\00:17:45.69
people coming to conclusions
and you have all these
00:17:45.69\00:17:48.33
different strains of the
Protestant reformation that
00:17:48.33\00:17:50.97
even Luther and
Calvin couldn't handle.
00:17:50.97\00:17:52.97
They said, no.
00:17:52.97\00:17:54.17
>>JEFFERY: Without freedom,
you would misuse the truth you
00:17:54.17\00:17:56.24
were fed.
00:17:56.24\00:17:57.37
>>TY: Yeah, and Plato
says, wherever you have freedom,
00:17:57.37\00:17:59.54
you're gonna get the greatest
variety of human beings, which
00:17:59.54\00:18:02.91
isn't natural.
00:18:02.91\00:18:03.91
[Laughter]
00:18:03.91\00:18:05.08
>>JAMES: Which is interesting
'cause we've already noted
00:18:05.08\00:18:07.88
that the reformers were,
did bring with them a little bit
00:18:07.88\00:18:11.75
of that spirit of persecution.
00:18:11.75\00:18:13.46
Calvin fled from France and
it was funny because he went to
00:18:13.46\00:18:22.20
Geneva, but he
didn't stay there.
00:18:22.20\00:18:24.20
They kind of kicked him
out, him and Pharaoh out.
00:18:24.20\00:18:26.20
But Pharaoh and Calvin
were invited back, but Calvin
00:18:26.20\00:18:28.37
didn't wanna stay there.
00:18:28.37\00:18:29.60
Now, Pharaoh tries to convince
him, we really need you here.
00:18:29.60\00:18:32.77
And he can't convince him,
theologically, he's just like,
00:18:32.77\00:18:36.95
no, I need to be off in
a retired place, writing,
00:18:36.95\00:18:40.25
whatever, and so Pharaoh
actually starts cursing him
00:18:40.25\00:18:43.45
and telling him that
he's gonna be cursed.
00:18:43.45\00:18:46.25
You're gonna be cursed,
God's gonna curse you and his
00:18:46.25\00:18:48.96
conscience, Calvin's
conscience can't bear that,
00:18:48.96\00:18:50.96
and so, he stays.
00:18:50.96\00:18:52.16
And they set up, in Geneva,
what comes to be known as the
00:18:52.16\00:18:55.76
Protestant papacy.
00:18:55.76\00:18:56.93
[Laughter]
00:18:56.93\00:18:58.03
>>TY: That's where we got
the Protestant work ethic.
00:18:58.03\00:19:01.37
>>JAMES: A guy comes there
that doesn't believe that, I
00:19:01.37\00:19:03.37
think it's the trinity or
something, and they actually
00:19:03.37\00:19:05.37
oversee him being burned at
the stake, and they kick out
00:19:05.37\00:19:08.41
Roman Catholics, they kick
them out and they make Geneva
00:19:08.41\00:19:11.08
a hub of Protestantism, but
in the same sense, they're not
00:19:11.08\00:19:14.98
given the freedom,
you know what I'm saying?
00:19:14.98\00:19:17.12
>>DAVID: It was easy,
comparatively, to come out of
00:19:17.12\00:19:19.52
a Roman church, it was a
different thing to come out of
00:19:19.52\00:19:22.72
Roman thinking.
00:19:22.72\00:19:23.96
>>TY: We have to take a break,
but we'll come right back and
00:19:23.96\00:19:26.63
continue this discussion.
00:19:26.63\00:19:29.66
[Music]
00:19:29.66\00:19:42.41
>>This is the story of
Niyima, who took a bus to the
00:19:42.41\00:19:45.95
doctor and found a piece of
paper with words of hope about
00:19:45.95\00:19:50.45
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00:19:50.45\00:19:55.12
box that came from a
truck which drove in from Durban
00:19:55.12\00:19:58.96
where a ship was docked
that sailed from Seattle, loaded
00:19:58.96\00:20:03.60
with containers stacked
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00:20:03.60\00:20:07.44
trucked in from the
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00:20:07.44\00:20:10.64
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00:20:10.64\00:20:14.58
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00:20:26.19\00:20:31.59
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00:20:52.08\00:20:57.59
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00:20:57.59\00:21:01.79
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00:21:01.79\00:21:06.70
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00:21:09.86\00:21:12.67
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[Music]
00:21:54.88\00:22:01.92
>>TY: Okay, I wanna begin
this segment by just reading a
00:22:01.92\00:22:03.95
quotation from Martin Luther,
where he's putting forth a
00:22:03.95\00:22:07.69
valiant effort to give
God all the glory, okay?
00:22:07.69\00:22:12.29
And here's how he's going to
do it, and Calvin did this as
00:22:12.29\00:22:14.36
well.
00:22:14.36\00:22:15.33
Quote, unquote, this is Luther.
00:22:15.33\00:22:16.90
With regards to God, and in
all that bears upon salvation
00:22:16.90\00:22:21.87
and damnation, man has no
free will, but is a captive, a
00:22:21.87\00:22:26.84
prisoner, a bond slave, either
to the will of God or to the
00:22:26.84\00:22:31.25
will of Satan.
00:22:31.25\00:22:32.48
We do everything of necessity
and nothing by free will, for
00:22:32.48\00:22:38.25
the power of free will is nil.
00:22:38.25\00:22:41.56
This is Luther, who's
essentially saying, we've
00:22:41.56\00:22:45.53
gotta protect the sovereignty
of God and we've gotta protect
00:22:45.53\00:22:48.60
the grace of God by making
sure we drive the point home
00:22:48.60\00:22:52.63
that free will plays
absolutely no part whatsoever
00:22:52.63\00:22:56.81
in a person's experience
with God in salvation.
00:22:56.81\00:23:00.78
Now, we're of the opinion,
I think we're of the opinion,
00:23:00.78\00:23:04.21
correct me if I'm wrong, that
human free will does not play
00:23:04.21\00:23:08.85
a meritorious role in
salvation, so we would agree,
00:23:08.85\00:23:13.05
in principle with what Calvin
and Luther are aiming for, we
00:23:13.05\00:23:18.89
would say, there's no merit
in the exercise of free will
00:23:18.89\00:23:21.96
because we believe that
Arminius came up with an
00:23:21.96\00:23:27.64
innovation that didn't occur
to Luther or Calvin and that
00:23:27.64\00:23:33.14
is that he said to Calvin
and to Luther, it's true that
00:23:33.14\00:23:38.15
human beings are totally
depraved, it's true that the
00:23:38.15\00:23:40.92
exercise of free will
would be meritorious if it was
00:23:40.92\00:23:44.69
occurring without a divine
work of grace prior to the
00:23:44.69\00:23:50.36
exercise of free will
that ignites and motivates the
00:23:50.36\00:23:54.23
exercise of that free will.
00:23:54.23\00:23:55.73
>>JAMES: Now, when you say he
said that to them, you mean he
00:23:55.73\00:23:57.63
said that to their
theology, yeah, to their works.
00:23:57.63\00:23:59.63
He was for when Calvin died,
but he read Calvin, and as he
00:23:59.63\00:24:04.84
was reading it, he
wasn't reading it like, he was
00:24:04.84\00:24:07.24
reading it like, yes, this
is Calvin, this is great stuff,
00:24:07.24\00:24:09.38
but then he just couldn't
wrap his mind around it.
00:24:09.38\00:24:12.25
>>TY: Yeah.
00:24:12.25\00:24:13.45
So, there was developed, and
everybody who's familiar with
00:24:13.45\00:24:17.19
these subjects is familiar
with tulip as a word that was
00:24:17.19\00:24:23.83
used to allow Calvinism to
be broken down as a doctrinal
00:24:23.83\00:24:28.80
system.
00:24:28.80\00:24:29.96
So, I think it'd be good to
just bring that to the table
00:24:29.96\00:24:33.17
and discuss each of the
points, the five points of
00:24:33.17\00:24:36.47
Calvinism.
00:24:36.47\00:24:37.54
So, what about the
T in tulip, Jeffrey?
00:24:37.54\00:24:41.51
>>JEFFERY: Total depravity,
and I think, as you mentioned,
00:24:41.51\00:24:45.91
Luther would be 100% on
that as well, they would share
00:24:45.91\00:24:49.52
that, so that's not...
00:24:49.52\00:24:50.59
>>TY: How would they
define total depravity, though?
00:24:50.59\00:24:53.52
Because we believe, don't we,
believe that human beings are
00:24:53.52\00:24:57.53
fallen sinners,
carnal, totally depraved.
00:24:57.53\00:25:01.80
>>DAVID: All have
sinned and fallen short.
00:25:01.80\00:25:03.87
>>JEFFERY: The
wage of sin is death.
00:25:03.87\00:25:05.87
They would say that the
human is completely incapable of
00:25:05.87\00:25:09.87
anything.
00:25:09.87\00:25:11.01
>>TY: So, total depravity
means no will, no free will.
00:25:11.01\00:25:15.14
>>JEFFERY: Your will itself
is in bondage, depraved, and
00:25:15.14\00:25:20.68
chained.
00:25:20.68\00:25:22.62
>>JAMES: So, yeah.
00:25:22.62\00:25:25.49
>>TY: Okay, so, then,
how would, later on, Arminius
00:25:25.49\00:25:30.03
respond to that?
00:25:30.03\00:25:32.69
Would he say, would he agree?
00:25:32.69\00:25:35.03
>>JAMES: Total depravity, also
called radical corruption or
00:25:35.03\00:25:37.00
pervasive depravity is a
theological doctrine derived
00:25:37.00\00:25:40.24
from Augustinian
concept of original sin.
00:25:40.24\00:25:42.60
It is the teaching out of
the consequence of the fall of
00:25:42.60\00:25:44.67
man.
00:25:44.67\00:25:45.71
Every person born into
the world is enslaved to the
00:25:45.71\00:25:48.94
service of sin, and as a
result of their fallen nature,
00:25:48.94\00:25:52.11
apart from the efficacious
or prevenient grace of God.
00:25:52.11\00:25:57.05
That's how Arminius would
respond, is utterly unable to
00:25:57.05\00:26:00.06
choose to follow God, refrain
from evil, or accept the gift
00:26:00.06\00:26:03.26
of salvation.
00:26:03.26\00:26:04.29
>>TY: Could you pause
and define that big word?
00:26:04.29\00:26:05.93
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:26:05.93\00:26:07.13
So, prevenient grace, in other
words, there is, in Calvin's
00:26:07.13\00:26:11.07
thinking, no way that we can
choose because that's a work.
00:26:11.07\00:26:14.80
So, Arminius is reading
that and he's saying, well,
00:26:14.80\00:26:17.04
actually, I think God's grace
precedes, that's what it means
00:26:17.04\00:26:20.08
by prevenient, precedes our
choosing and actually makes us
00:26:20.08\00:26:23.81
able to choose.
00:26:23.81\00:26:24.81
So, it's no longer a work.
00:26:24.81\00:26:26.21
It is the grace of God that
is drawing us to make a choice
00:26:26.21\00:26:29.75
for God and that grace is
actually drawing every single
00:26:29.75\00:26:33.39
person on planet earth.
00:26:33.39\00:26:34.56
So, every single person on
planet earth is free to choose
00:26:34.56\00:26:37.56
or not choose to
be saved or lost.
00:26:37.56\00:26:39.56
>>TY: Not because it's in
them, but because God is...
00:26:39.56\00:26:42.10
>>JAMES: Because of the
prevenient grace of God.
00:26:42.10\00:26:44.87
>>JEFFERY: So, it's probably
semantics, but maybe pushback
00:26:44.87\00:26:47.20
would be regardless, whether
it's before or after the grace
00:26:47.20\00:26:49.67
of God, the
individual is still...
00:26:49.67\00:26:53.04
>>JAMES: Totally depraved.
00:26:53.04\00:26:54.24
>>JEFFERY: But the individual
still chooses to receive or
00:26:54.24\00:26:57.15
reject that grace of God
that allows him, he or she.
00:26:57.15\00:27:00.78
>>JAMES: Nope, the grace of
God is what's drawing you to
00:27:00.78\00:27:04.02
choose or reject, not
the grace of God, because the
00:27:04.02\00:27:06.55
grace of God is preceding
any choice you're making.
00:27:06.55\00:27:09.26
>>JEFFERY: It's
already active in your life.
00:27:09.26\00:27:11.59
And it's bringing you to
the point where you can now, by
00:27:11.59\00:27:16.10
virtue of that grace decide to
choose, to exercise your will,
00:27:16.10\00:27:20.94
to exercise faith.
00:27:20.94\00:27:22.07
>>JAMES: Right,
it's the grace of God.
00:27:22.07\00:27:24.61
>>TY: What's the
distinction you're making?
00:27:24.61\00:27:27.11
>>JEFFERY: I'm just exploring,
where the hair splits there,
00:27:27.11\00:27:33.18
because at that point, there's
a decision that's made, an act
00:27:33.18\00:27:37.05
of will and that's
where the problem is.
00:27:37.05\00:27:41.26
>>JAMES: Let me read on.
00:27:41.26\00:27:43.93
The key to staying between
the total depravity, embraced by
00:27:43.93\00:27:45.93
Calvin and the total depravity
taught by Arminius is the
00:27:45.93\00:27:49.23
distinction between
irresistible grace and
00:27:49.23\00:27:51.97
prevenient grace.
00:27:51.97\00:27:52.97
So, here's Calvin.
00:27:52.97\00:27:55.14
The grace of God can't
be resisted, it can't be
00:27:55.14\00:27:58.91
resisted.
00:27:58.91\00:28:00.71
>>TY: Because you
don't have free will.
00:28:00.71\00:28:01.51
>>JAMES: You
don't have free will.
00:28:01.51\00:28:02.71
So, if God's grace is coming
to you, it can't be resisted,
00:28:02.71\00:28:04.05
you're saved.
00:28:04.05\00:28:05.28
Therefore, if you're not
saved, it's because sovereign
00:28:05.28\00:28:07.68
will has chosen for
you not to be saved.
00:28:07.68\00:28:09.68
Arminius is saying, the grace
of God comes to all, to make
00:28:09.68\00:28:13.69
us capable of
choosing or not choosing.
00:28:13.69\00:28:16.39
Calvin is saying, no, the
grace of God is irresistible,
00:28:16.39\00:28:19.49
it's irresistible grace
versus prevenient grace.
00:28:19.49\00:28:22.03
>>DAVID: Jeffrey?
00:28:22.03\00:28:23.57
Happy with that?
00:28:23.57\00:28:24.80
>>TY: Okay, so, the T in tulip
is total depravity, which for
00:28:24.80\00:28:29.04
Calvin, for Calvinism, is
a complete negation of free
00:28:29.04\00:28:34.21
will.
00:28:34.21\00:28:35.08
The U is unconditional election.
00:28:35.08\00:28:38.71
>>DAVID: Which, one of the
things you'll appreciate about
00:28:38.71\00:28:42.48
tulip and the five points
of Calvinism is their logical
00:28:42.48\00:28:45.22
consistency.
00:28:45.22\00:28:46.55
If this, then this,
and if this, then that.
00:28:46.55\00:28:50.96
Fiercely logical.
00:28:50.96\00:28:52.53
Now, whether or not they
are robustly biblical in every
00:28:52.53\00:28:56.20
sort of permutation of it,
that's another question, but
00:28:56.20\00:28:59.13
they're logical.
00:28:59.13\00:29:00.44
>>TY: You begin with a premise
and as follows, as follows, as
00:29:00.44\00:29:02.80
follows.
00:29:02.80\00:29:04.01
>>DAVID: So, if you have total
depravity, not the Arminius
00:29:04.01\00:29:05.97
version where you have
prevenient grace, but you have
00:29:05.97\00:29:07.94
total depravity, you can't
even muster the ability, if
00:29:07.94\00:29:11.11
that's the case, well,
if you're going to be elect,
00:29:11.11\00:29:14.02
saved, it would
have to be unconditional.
00:29:14.02\00:29:16.89
In other words, it couldn't
be conditioned on anything you
00:29:16.89\00:29:19.05
did.
00:29:19.05\00:29:20.06
It would be something God did.
00:29:20.06\00:29:21.52
So, unconditional
election follows naturally, even
00:29:21.52\00:29:25.16
inevitably from the
idea of total depravity.
00:29:25.16\00:29:28.53
It's logical.
00:29:28.53\00:29:29.73
>>TY: And to Calvin's credit,
to Luther's credit as well,
00:29:29.73\00:29:34.64
they're trying to protect the
grace of God as the only means
00:29:34.64\00:29:38.27
of salvation and to completely
decimate any human merit.
00:29:38.27\00:29:42.68
Which, Arminius would
agree with, which we would agree
00:29:42.68\00:29:47.78
with, that it is by grace
alone, a hard, radical, alone.
00:29:47.78\00:29:54.02
Grace through faith alone.
00:29:54.02\00:29:56.42
>>DAVID: And I would even
say that God's election, okay,
00:29:56.42\00:29:59.96
just as an example, as a case
in point, if you ask me if I
00:29:59.96\00:30:02.70
believe in total depravity,
the answer is yes, as long as
00:30:02.70\00:30:05.80
you allow me to qualify
biblically what I mean by
00:30:05.80\00:30:08.07
that.
00:30:08.07\00:30:09.24
If you ask me if I believe
in unconditional election, my
00:30:09.24\00:30:11.61
answer is, yes, right?
00:30:11.61\00:30:14.41
'Cause God elects all
to salvation based on his
00:30:14.41\00:30:19.18
goodness, his initiative, his
plan of salvation to which we
00:30:19.18\00:30:22.72
respond.
00:30:22.72\00:30:23.89
So, if you allow me or us
to define these terms, we could
00:30:23.89\00:30:29.16
say yes to most of them, not
the next one, so L is limited
00:30:29.16\00:30:37.40
atonement.
00:30:37.40\00:30:38.40
Limited atonement.
00:30:38.40\00:30:39.40
>>TY: Well, L and I.
00:30:39.40\00:30:40.67
>>DAVID: Limited atonement's
this idea, to follow the
00:30:40.67\00:30:44.31
logical stream,
it makes good sense.
00:30:44.31\00:30:47.11
If God knows in advance who
are going to be saved, elect
00:30:47.11\00:30:50.68
by virtue of his sovereignly
choosing them, then it doesn't
00:30:50.68\00:30:54.65
make sense to say that Jesus
died for everyone, including
00:30:54.65\00:30:58.12
those who he knew would be lost.
00:30:58.12\00:31:00.56
If he had died for them, they
would be saved because grace
00:31:00.56\00:31:03.02
is irresistible.
00:31:03.02\00:31:04.49
So, there are those that were
created for whom the atonement
00:31:04.49\00:31:08.93
was not executed.
00:31:08.93\00:31:10.80
Therefore, the atonement
is limited to the elect.
00:31:10.80\00:31:13.64
Now, this is the point where
I can say yes to total depravity
00:31:13.64\00:31:16.27
as long as I am allowed to
wrap my language around that,
00:31:16.27\00:31:18.71
yes to unconditional
election, limited atonement, no.
00:31:18.71\00:31:24.21
>>TY: And why not?
00:31:24.21\00:31:25.98
>>DAVID: Well,
because I just think...
00:31:25.98\00:31:28.85
>>TY: Is there
scripture explicitly...?
00:31:28.85\00:31:30.85
>>DAVID: Okay, here's
the question I have, is there
00:31:30.85\00:31:34.02
scripture the other way?
00:31:34.02\00:31:36.02
I mean, I'm asking out
of ignorance here, I confess
00:31:36.02\00:31:40.96
that, but like, John 3:16.
00:31:40.96\00:31:43.57
Yes or no?
00:31:43.57\00:31:44.57
>>TY: For God so
loved the world...
00:31:44.57\00:31:46.57
>>DAVID: That he gave his
only begotten Son that who, and
00:31:46.57\00:31:48.57
then, you know,
Jesus in, what is it?
00:31:48.57\00:31:50.57
In Matthew 25, depart from me,
ye cursed to everlasting fire
00:31:50.57\00:31:53.34
prepared for the
devil and his angels.
00:31:53.34\00:31:55.34
God is not willing that
any should perish, but that all
00:31:55.34\00:31:57.35
should come to repentance.
00:31:57.35\00:31:58.35
>>JAMES: 2 Peter 3:9.
00:31:58.35\00:32:00.42
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, but, God
is not willing that any should
00:32:00.42\00:32:03.35
perish, but that all should
come to repentance, that's
00:32:03.35\00:32:05.59
describing the desire of God.
00:32:05.59\00:32:08.92
God would rather it be the
case that everyone were saved,
00:32:08.92\00:32:14.60
that doesn't necessarily say.
00:32:14.60\00:32:17.20
>>JAMES: The verse is God
so loved the world that he gave
00:32:17.20\00:32:19.17
his only begotten
Son, that's the part.
00:32:19.17\00:32:22.07
>>TY: What's your point?
00:32:22.07\00:32:24.57
>>JEFFERY: I was just
making the point that there's a
00:32:24.57\00:32:28.78
distinction between what
God would like to be the case,
00:32:28.78\00:32:31.31
somebody could say, well, that's
not the same thing as whom God
00:32:31.31\00:32:35.62
elected to be saved.
00:32:35.62\00:32:36.92
>>DAVID: I agree with
that, I'm still not, is that a
00:32:36.92\00:32:40.76
pushback against what...?
00:32:40.76\00:32:41.76
>>JEFFERY: Never mind,
never mind, never mind.
00:32:41.76\00:32:43.76
>>DAVID: Okay.
00:32:43.76\00:32:44.99
>>TY: You're saying maybe God
does desire all to be saved, 2
00:32:44.99\00:32:49.86
Peter, but that he's only
elected, which is different
00:32:49.86\00:32:54.77
than his desire.
00:32:54.77\00:32:55.70
>>DAVID: Why would
he elect something...?
00:32:55.70\00:32:57.77
>>JEFFERY: I don't know,
I'm simply limiting the language
00:32:57.77\00:33:00.74
for the text.
00:33:00.74\00:33:02.38
It probably doesn't
follow, I'm just, I'm basically
00:33:02.38\00:33:04.65
asking, is it possible...
00:33:04.65\00:33:05.58
>>DAVID: You're
being careful, I get that.
00:33:05.58\00:33:07.65
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, just being
careful, is it possible for
00:33:07.65\00:33:10.12
those two things to be
not mutually exclusive?
00:33:10.12\00:33:15.29
>>DAVID: I think the
passages that are used...
00:33:15.29\00:33:17.56
>>JEFFERY: The answer could
be no, I'm just asking, is it
00:33:17.56\00:33:19.69
possible?
00:33:19.69\00:33:20.90
>>DAVID: I think the passages,
you know, we're using texts
00:33:20.90\00:33:22.70
that are clearly
universal in scope, right?
00:33:22.70\00:33:26.20
For God so loved the world.
00:33:26.20\00:33:27.57
I think the passages that
are used by our Calvinistic
00:33:27.57\00:33:30.64
friends or those that incline
themselves that way would be
00:33:30.64\00:33:33.17
passages like Romans chapter
9 and the idea that you know,
00:33:33.17\00:33:37.41
Jacob I have loved
and Esau I have hated.
00:33:37.41\00:33:39.48
And you know, some are made
as vessels of wrath and some are
00:33:39.48\00:33:42.52
made of, you know, there are,
I'm not suggesting that they
00:33:42.52\00:33:44.32
don't have any scriptural
basis, I just saying that, on
00:33:44.32\00:33:46.39
the whole, it's hard for me to
get my, it's impossible for me
00:33:46.39\00:33:52.39
to get my mind around the idea
that God elected for certain
00:33:52.39\00:33:58.67
people to be saved to
the exclusion of others.
00:33:58.67\00:34:04.71
>>TY: That says something
about the character of God.
00:34:04.71\00:34:06.64
>>DAVID: How can it not?
00:34:06.64\00:34:07.68
That's Arminius's point.
00:34:07.68\00:34:09.41
Arminius's point, his
critique of Calvinism was wait a
00:34:09.41\00:34:11.98
minute, how, in some sense,
is God not responsible for sin
00:34:11.98\00:34:15.48
and for damnation?
00:34:15.48\00:34:17.89
He couldn't trace that,
he said, wait a minute, I'm
00:34:17.89\00:34:19.89
confused, isn't it some level.
00:34:19.89\00:34:21.19
>>JAMES: Well, John
Wesley takes it even further.
00:34:21.19\00:34:23.59
>>JEFFERY: Let me just
bring up John 3:16, 'cause you
00:34:23.59\00:34:25.63
quoted it, to ask the
same question I asked before.
00:34:25.63\00:34:28.10
Again, shoot it down, I'm not
stating this is the case, I'm
00:34:28.10\00:34:30.73
posing a question.
00:34:30.73\00:34:31.87
John 3:16, for God so
loved the world that he gave his
00:34:31.87\00:34:35.07
only begotten Son that
whosoever, we're saying
00:34:35.07\00:34:37.24
whosoever, the world,
that's pretty, that's everybody.
00:34:37.24\00:34:40.81
So, is it possible that
whosoever, is it referring to
00:34:40.81\00:34:46.35
those that have been elected?
00:34:46.35\00:34:47.92
>>DAVID: That is the answer.
00:34:47.92\00:34:49.02
>>JEFFERY: So, then, they
might say, well, John 3:16
00:34:49.02\00:34:52.22
doesn't really contradict
limited atonement, limited
00:34:52.22\00:34:56.29
atonement is just
stating a fact, but God may...
00:34:56.29\00:35:00.36
>>DAVID: No,
you're exactly correct.
00:35:00.36\00:35:02.33
That is the response.
00:35:02.33\00:35:03.30
I have held evangelistic
meetings, two, in Grand
00:35:03.30\00:35:06.94
Rapids, Michigan, which
Grand Rapids, Michigan, is the,
00:35:06.94\00:35:09.87
Calvin College is there,
the headquarters of the Reformed
00:35:09.87\00:35:13.51
Church of America is there,
I have sat, well, Chad Cruiser,
00:35:13.51\00:35:17.01
a mutual friend of ours,
like, that is the answer.
00:35:17.01\00:35:19.41
I've asked numerous people
from a Calvinistic perspective
00:35:19.41\00:35:22.08
on this point, John 3:16, they
say, when you see world, I see
00:35:22.08\00:35:26.39
whoever believes and
whoever believes is the elects.
00:35:26.39\00:35:29.96
But to me, okay, just take the
theology, just set it here for
00:35:29.96\00:35:34.56
a second.
00:35:34.56\00:35:35.63
My big question is, is
Arminius's question and mine's
00:35:35.63\00:35:37.97
even a little broader still,
I think, and that is, what does
00:35:37.97\00:35:40.87
it say about God?
00:35:40.87\00:35:42.14
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, exactly.
00:35:42.14\00:35:43.30
>>JAMES: So, going back two
verses in John chapter 3:14,
00:35:43.30\00:35:45.94
as Moses lifted up the serpent
in the wilderness, even so
00:35:45.94\00:35:47.81
must the Son of man be lifted
up that whosoever, no world
00:35:47.81\00:35:50.85
here, believes in him
shall not perish but have
00:35:50.85\00:35:53.05
everlasting life.
00:35:53.05\00:35:54.62
Now, you take that verse
and compare it with 2 Peter 3,
00:35:54.62\00:35:57.82
verse 9, God's not suffering
toward us, he's not willing
00:35:57.82\00:36:01.09
that any would perish,
but that all would come to
00:36:01.09\00:36:03.39
repentance.
00:36:03.39\00:36:04.63
Perish and perish are the key
words here that are connected.
00:36:04.63\00:36:06.86
You see what I'm saying?
00:36:06.86\00:36:08.36
So, when you look at scripture
with a preconceived thought,
00:36:08.36\00:36:14.24
you are gonna read
the verse a certain way.
00:36:14.24\00:36:15.80
>>DAVID: This is
true for all of us.
00:36:15.80\00:36:17.11
>>JAMES: It is,
it's true for all of us.
00:36:17.11\00:36:18.31
When you look at it and you
just let it lay out the way it
00:36:18.31\00:36:20.34
is, then it becomes
much bigger, and that's what
00:36:20.34\00:36:23.55
Arminius did.
00:36:23.55\00:36:24.71
He started looking and he
started saying, wait a minute,
00:36:24.71\00:36:26.35
and this really helped him
and John Wesley to answer the
00:36:26.35\00:36:29.55
question of free will in
relation to maintaining that
00:36:29.55\00:36:32.39
God...
00:36:32.39\00:36:33.49
>>DAVID: The sovereignty of God.
00:36:33.49\00:36:34.69
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:36:34.69\00:36:35.72
>>DAVID: So, that's the
U, that's the L, limited
00:36:35.72\00:36:37.36
atonement.
00:36:37.36\00:36:38.56
>>TY: Right.
00:36:38.56\00:36:39.76
And then is I, which
is irresistible grace.
00:36:39.76\00:36:42.83
>>JAMES: Which,
we've talked about that.
00:36:42.83\00:36:44.17
>>DAVID: The idea that those
that are elect will be drawn
00:36:44.17\00:36:47.27
to God, they will, it is
irresistibly the case because
00:36:47.27\00:36:50.24
God is sovereignly
elected them to salvation.
00:36:50.24\00:36:53.34
This is, yeah, this is
logical, again, you have to
00:36:53.34\00:36:56.31
admire the
logical consistency here.
00:36:56.31\00:36:58.51
And then, finally, the P,
the perseverance of the saints.
00:36:58.51\00:37:01.92
Those that are elect
unconditionally and are
00:37:01.92\00:37:06.22
irresistibly drawn to God,
will persevere and be saved.
00:37:06.22\00:37:10.49
>>TY: Once saved, always saved.
00:37:10.49\00:37:11.86
>>DAVID: We would say, that's
the colloquial way of saying
00:37:11.86\00:37:13.86
it, once saved, always saved.
00:37:13.86\00:37:14.86
So, if you follow that
through, total depravity,
00:37:14.86\00:37:17.07
unconditional
election, unlimited atonement,
00:37:17.07\00:37:19.07
irresistible grace, and then,
finally, perseverance of the
00:37:19.07\00:37:21.07
saints, it's logical.
00:37:21.07\00:37:24.14
The question is, is it
biblical, and then, for me,
00:37:24.14\00:37:29.48
the big question is, is it
biblical what does it say about
00:37:29.48\00:37:31.95
God's character?
00:37:31.95\00:37:33.85
And I can just
speak very briefly here,
00:37:33.85\00:37:35.28
autobiographically, the
first person that, like overtly
00:37:35.28\00:37:38.19
witnessed to me,
as a non-believer.
00:37:38.19\00:37:41.16
I was a purple haired, punk
rocker working at Rapid City,
00:37:41.16\00:37:43.06
South Dakota's premier
snowboarding/mountain bike
00:37:43.06\00:37:46.39
shop, PJ's Adventure Sport,
and my friend from high school
00:37:46.39\00:37:50.03
came in, Tim Schu, starts
talking to me about climbing
00:37:50.03\00:37:52.87
and backpacking and
all of that, and then, he
00:37:52.87\00:37:55.14
transitioned, he was a
well-known Christian, and he
00:37:55.14\00:37:56.67
was a friend that lived just
down the hill from me and he
00:37:56.67\00:37:58.24
starts talking.
00:37:58.24\00:37:59.37
I'm 19, maybe 20, he's the
same age, we graduated from
00:37:59.37\00:38:01.11
high school the same year,
and he starts witnessing to me,
00:38:01.11\00:38:03.35
and as he's witnessing to
me and as he's talking to me, I
00:38:03.35\00:38:06.45
ask him, I just had two
questions for this whole
00:38:06.45\00:38:08.95
Christian thing.
00:38:08.95\00:38:10.12
Number one, what about the
Muslims, the Hindus, the Jews,
00:38:10.12\00:38:13.22
all the people who don't
know what you know, and then,
00:38:13.22\00:38:15.96
number two, what about
eternal conscious torment?
00:38:15.96\00:38:18.59
If you can clear that up for
me, and his answers were, you
00:38:18.59\00:38:21.70
know, God bless him, he
was emphatic, he was non, he
00:38:21.70\00:38:25.70
wasn't ambiguous, he was
non-negotiable, he said, those
00:38:25.70\00:38:29.90
people will, they will be
unsaved if they don't say that
00:38:29.90\00:38:33.38
Jesus is their personal savior.
00:38:33.38\00:38:34.74
They are not God's elect.
00:38:34.74\00:38:36.61
God is elected, so that was,
he was emphatic on that, and
00:38:36.61\00:38:39.41
then, the eternal conscious
torment, just gotta suck it
00:38:39.41\00:38:41.82
up, this redowns
to the glory of God.
00:38:41.82\00:38:44.32
And in a moment, I was not
a theologian, I couldn't have
00:38:44.32\00:38:46.35
told you who John Calvin was,
I didn't know anything about
00:38:46.35\00:38:48.32
tulip, but emotionally,
psychologically, and
00:38:48.32\00:38:51.93
intellectually, shut down.
00:38:51.93\00:38:54.73
Thank you very much, Jesus
saves, God bless you, I'll see
00:38:54.73\00:38:56.70
you out climbing, but I'm
not, I am not, I'm telling you,
00:38:56.70\00:39:01.60
experientially, that is
exactly what happened to me, I
00:39:01.60\00:39:04.67
am not responding to that God.
00:39:04.67\00:39:06.94
And I'm still, to this
day, not responding to that God.
00:39:06.94\00:39:09.21
And you know, props to him,
props to Tim for coming in and
00:39:09.21\00:39:12.95
trying to witness to the
purple haired punk rocker,
00:39:12.95\00:39:14.92
good for him, but his answers,
absolutely unmoving, did not
00:39:14.92\00:39:19.22
move me emotionally,
psychologically, until, no.
00:39:19.22\00:39:22.06
>>TY: When we come back after
the break, I'll share with you
00:39:22.06\00:39:25.53
a quotation from a very
prominent figure in American
00:39:25.53\00:39:29.03
history who had the same
exact response that you had, so
00:39:29.03\00:39:35.67
let's just take a break
and we'll come right back.
00:39:35.67\00:39:37.94
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00:40:36.36\00:40:39.50
[Music]
00:40:39.50\00:40:47.24
>>TY: David, your experience
is the same experience that
00:40:47.24\00:40:50.11
many people have had in
response to the combination of
00:40:50.11\00:40:54.28
two ideas.
00:40:54.28\00:40:55.82
One, that God unilaterally
predetermines who's going to
00:40:55.82\00:41:00.52
heaven and who's going to
hell, who's saved, who's lost,
00:41:00.52\00:41:02.86
and to be lost means
eternal conscious torment.
00:41:02.86\00:41:07.93
It's difficult to conceive
of anything more emotionally
00:41:07.93\00:41:14.07
unpalatable than to say that
the God of the universe is the
00:41:14.07\00:41:17.91
kind of God who doesn't just
predetermine who's saved and
00:41:17.91\00:41:21.94
lost, but he actually has
created some people in order
00:41:21.94\00:41:27.22
for them to be tortured for
all eternity, and this, we're
00:41:27.22\00:41:32.52
told, is for his glory.
00:41:32.52\00:41:35.26
But his glory, and it's
good news, but his glory is
00:41:35.26\00:41:38.13
inscrutable, meaning don't
try to figure it out, God's
00:41:38.13\00:41:41.86
sovereign, sit
down and believe it.
00:41:41.86\00:41:44.93
>>DAVID: You're the pot.
00:41:44.93\00:41:46.07
>>TY: you're the pot, you
don't have questions for the
00:41:46.07\00:41:48.17
potter, okay?
00:41:48.17\00:41:49.40
Thomas Jefferson, in a
correspondence with John Adams
00:41:49.40\00:41:53.78
had this to say, and it's
just a very insightful statement
00:41:53.78\00:41:58.51
that he had in this letter.
00:41:58.51\00:42:00.15
He says, I can never join
Calvin in addressing his god.
00:42:00.15\00:42:04.65
He puts lower case g there.
00:42:04.65\00:42:06.62
I can never join
Calvin in addressing his god.
00:42:06.62\00:42:10.03
He was indeed an
atheist, which I can never be.
00:42:10.03\00:42:16.13
He calls John Calvin an atheist.
00:42:16.13\00:42:21.44
Now, he's not ignorant, he
hasn't missed the boat, he's
00:42:21.44\00:42:25.04
not lacking information,
listen, he says, I can never
00:42:25.04\00:42:28.24
join Calvin in addressing his
god, he was an atheist, which
00:42:28.24\00:42:30.98
I can never be, or rather, now
he's going to explain what he
00:42:30.98\00:42:33.62
meant, or rather, his religion
was daemonism, what we would
00:42:33.62\00:42:37.92
call demonism,
wow, that's strong.
00:42:37.92\00:42:40.59
This is Thomas
Jefferson, this isn't me.
00:42:40.59\00:42:42.39
If ever a man worshipped
a false god, Calvin did.
00:42:42.39\00:42:48.03
The being, the being described
in his five points, that's
00:42:48.03\00:42:52.53
what we've just gone through,
tulip, the being described in
00:42:52.53\00:42:55.07
his five points is not the
God you and I, you and I, you,
00:42:55.07\00:43:00.98
John Adams, and I, Thomas
Jefferson, acknowledge and
00:43:00.98\00:43:03.88
adore.
00:43:03.88\00:43:05.31
We worship...
00:43:05.31\00:43:07.48
>>DAVID: Adore is a great word.
00:43:07.48\00:43:08.62
>>TY: Yeah, the creator
and benevolent governor of the
00:43:08.62\00:43:11.95
world, but rather, yeah,
benevolent governor of the
00:43:11.95\00:43:15.52
world, but rather Calvin's
God is a daemon or a malignant
00:43:15.52\00:43:20.20
spirit.
00:43:20.20\00:43:21.40
It would be more pardonable
to believe in no god at all than
00:43:21.40\00:43:26.10
to blaspheme him in
the atrocious attributes of
00:43:26.10\00:43:30.01
Calvin.
00:43:30.01\00:43:31.14
The value of deism, that
is the existence of God, the
00:43:31.14\00:43:36.08
acknowledgement of a god
who exists, but is detached and
00:43:36.08\00:43:39.45
has nothing to do with us, the
value of deism in its last in
00:43:39.45\00:43:43.62
American ambit, was that
it prevented confessional
00:43:43.62\00:43:48.26
religion from driving
human beings into atheism as its
00:43:48.26\00:43:52.63
only alternative.
00:43:52.63\00:43:53.63
Do you hear what
he's saying here?
00:43:53.63\00:43:56.93
>>JAMES: He was the champion
of choice, of freedom of will.
00:43:56.93\00:44:01.20
>>DAVID: Thomas Jefferson?
00:44:01.20\00:44:02.20
>>JAMES: Yeah.
00:44:02.20\00:44:03.17
>>DAVID: Oh, he was the
primary author of the...
00:44:03.17\00:44:05.57
>>TY: He inscribed the gospel
in those founding documents.
00:44:05.57\00:44:09.88
But what he's saying,
even though it's very strong,
00:44:09.88\00:44:12.41
because I don't think any
of us around this table believe
00:44:12.41\00:44:14.55
that our Calvinist friends,
and we have Calvinist friends,
00:44:14.55\00:44:18.29
that they're worshipping demons.
00:44:18.29\00:44:21.96
No, they're worshipping
the same God that we're
00:44:21.96\00:44:24.19
worshipping and we honor their
convictions on these points.
00:44:24.19\00:44:31.20
But that doesn't detract
from the point that you made in
00:44:31.20\00:44:34.00
your little testimony there
about what happened with you
00:44:34.00\00:44:35.94
when you encountered Calvinism
in those two points, and it
00:44:35.94\00:44:40.94
doesn't detract from the
fact that someone like Thomas
00:44:40.94\00:44:43.38
Jefferson was having a
visceral, emotional reaction
00:44:43.38\00:44:47.05
against the idea that God
predetermines who's going to
00:44:47.05\00:44:51.55
heaven and who's going to
hell, and you have no choice
00:44:51.55\00:44:54.02
in the matter and
hell is eternal torment.
00:44:54.02\00:44:56.39
You put those two
things together and it's pretty
00:44:56.39\00:44:58.93
scary.
00:44:58.93\00:45:00.13
And then, he's making the
point, because deism is kind
00:45:00.13\00:45:02.83
of a new thing on
the market of religion.
00:45:02.83\00:45:06.74
And he's saying, well, deism
does have its value, at least
00:45:06.74\00:45:09.47
it prevented all of us
from becoming atheists.
00:45:09.47\00:45:11.47
That's what he's saying.
00:45:11.47\00:45:13.17
>>JAMES: And that's coming
out of the French revolution.
00:45:13.17\00:45:17.08
>>TY: He's saying, I'd rather
believe that God is distant
00:45:17.08\00:45:21.42
and uninvolved, but still
keep God in existence than
00:45:21.42\00:45:24.65
completely rule
him out of existence.
00:45:24.65\00:45:26.72
>>DAVID: For a champion
of freedom such as Thomas
00:45:26.72\00:45:28.72
Jefferson was, the idea that
freedom is nonexistent, or at
00:45:28.72\00:45:32.06
best, illusory, it's
just unattainable, it's
00:45:32.06\00:45:35.00
unacceptable.
00:45:35.00\00:45:36.03
And you know, it's funny
because you read sentence
00:45:36.03\00:45:38.17
number one,
Jeffrey's like, that's strong.
00:45:38.17\00:45:40.17
You read sentence number two,
Jeffrey's like, that's strong.
00:45:40.17\00:45:42.17
You read sentence
number three, he's like, that's
00:45:42.17\00:45:44.47
strong.
00:45:44.47\00:45:45.47
I mean, it was strong.
00:45:45.47\00:45:46.78
>>JEFFERY: I was thinking
that even Voltaire, because you
00:45:46.78\00:45:49.04
remember the Lisbon earthquake?
00:45:49.04\00:45:50.28
>>TY: I mean, I wasn't there,
but I remember the historical
00:45:50.28\00:45:52.48
record.
00:45:52.48\00:45:53.68
>>JEFFERY: He wrote this poem
in response to that, mocking
00:45:53.68\00:45:56.85
the concept that this is of
God, because everything is of
00:45:56.85\00:45:59.89
God.
00:45:59.89\00:46:01.16
And then he wrote this book,
Condide, really famous little
00:46:01.16\00:46:03.66
novel, and the whole thing
is a polemic against a world...
00:46:03.66\00:46:07.86
>>TY: In which God
calls all the shots.
00:46:07.86\00:46:09.86
>>JEFFERY: So, you have, you
know, this giant representing,
00:46:09.86\00:46:14.54
you know, secular philosophy,
and he's having an allergic
00:46:14.54\00:46:18.97
reaction, as described
by Jefferson, that's kind of
00:46:18.97\00:46:24.25
heavy.
00:46:24.25\00:46:25.45
>>JAMES: I think it'd be good
just to look at a little bit
00:46:25.45\00:46:27.35
more of the history here as
it relates to Wesley, because
00:46:27.35\00:46:29.78
something really interesting
took place as this developed.
00:46:29.78\00:46:33.82
Wesley, of course, became
the champion of Armenism, yeah,
00:46:33.82\00:46:37.69
and his brother Charles, but
he was connected with another
00:46:37.69\00:46:41.36
fellow by the name of
George Whitefield, they became
00:46:41.36\00:46:43.37
Methodists because they had
this method of bible study and
00:46:43.37\00:46:48.24
devotion in the mornings.
00:46:48.24\00:46:49.20
>>DAVID: It was
actually a term of derision.
00:46:49.20\00:46:50.14
>>JAMES: It was.
00:46:50.14\00:46:51.17
And they turned into a
positive attribute, yeah.
00:46:51.17\00:46:53.98
And George Whitefield and John
Wesley worked together, they
00:46:53.98\00:46:59.18
went to America together, they
worked together, they became,
00:46:59.18\00:47:01.38
both became Methodists,
but they separated over this
00:47:01.38\00:47:06.39
issue, George Whitefield, yep,
George Whitefield was a strong
00:47:06.39\00:47:10.26
Calvinist and Charles Wesley
was a strong Armenist and when
00:47:10.26\00:47:14.46
they went to America,
John Wesley preached a sermon
00:47:14.46\00:47:17.73
against Calvinism and in that
sermon, he said that those who
00:47:17.73\00:47:22.64
believe, this is the way
he said it, he said, attacking
00:47:22.64\00:47:26.84
the Calvinistic understanding
of predestination as
00:47:26.84\00:47:28.91
blasphemous, as it represented
God as worse than the devil.
00:47:28.91\00:47:36.05
That was John, and George
is listening, and George asked
00:47:36.05\00:47:41.06
him not to repeat it, not
to publish it, yeah, they were
00:47:41.06\00:47:47.20
friends, as he did not want
a dispute, but Wesley published
00:47:47.20\00:47:50.37
it anyway.
00:47:50.37\00:47:51.47
So, they separated.
00:47:51.47\00:47:53.50
And then, because they
were good friends, they got back
00:47:53.50\00:47:57.11
together again.
00:47:57.11\00:47:58.74
They continued their
friendship, and then, here's
00:47:58.74\00:48:01.08
what happens, it says that
in time, their friendship's
00:48:01.08\00:48:06.45
together, their theology is
separate, but they're friends,
00:48:06.45\00:48:09.32
in time, someone comes to
George Whitefield and he says,
00:48:09.32\00:48:13.72
hey, George, he says, do you
think that you will see Wesley
00:48:13.72\00:48:20.03
in heaven?
00:48:20.03\00:48:21.00
Do you think
you'll see him in heaven?
00:48:21.00\00:48:23.00
'Cause you know, this is...
00:48:23.00\00:48:24.00
>>DAVID: They're
divided doctrinally.
00:48:24.00\00:48:26.00
>>JAMES: Wesley said the
God you serve is the devil.
00:48:26.00\00:48:28.00
Do you think you'll see him?
00:48:28.00\00:48:30.94
And Whitefield responds
and he says, I fear not.
00:48:30.94\00:48:34.18
I fear not.
00:48:34.18\00:48:35.34
For he will be so near the
eternal throne and we will be
00:48:35.34\00:48:42.05
at such a distance that we
shall hardly get sight of him.
00:48:42.05\00:48:46.09
>>DAVID: What a response.
00:48:46.09\00:48:47.29
>>TY: You know what would've
been really, really beautiful?
00:48:47.29\00:48:49.29
If Wesley had said
that about Whitefield.
00:48:49.29\00:48:51.46
[Laughter]
00:48:51.46\00:48:52.46
Maybe he would
have, I don't know.
00:48:52.46\00:48:54.46
>>JAMES: I would've hoped,
since they were friends, that
00:48:54.46\00:48:57.57
attitude and spirit that
Wesley had actually, not just
00:48:57.57\00:49:02.44
reciprocal, but
actually nurtured this attitude.
00:49:02.44\00:49:05.84
In other words, we've
just talked about some pretty
00:49:05.84\00:49:08.61
serious stuff,
some pretty heavy stuff.
00:49:08.61\00:49:10.78
People listening, they're
probably strong Calvinists,
00:49:10.78\00:49:14.52
and we are Armenist.
00:49:14.52\00:49:15.88
Armenians.
00:49:15.88\00:49:19.79
This is the spirit
that we need to carry.
00:49:19.79\00:49:21.89
This is...
00:49:21.89\00:49:23.06
>>TY: Even more than a spirit,
he actually believed that
00:49:23.06\00:49:25.76
Wesley would be saved.
00:49:25.76\00:49:26.93
>>JAMES: Yeah, this is the
attitude that we need to have,
00:49:26.93\00:49:29.00
this is the way that we
need to look at each other, not
00:49:29.00\00:49:31.10
just Calvinists and Armenians,
but Catholics and Buddhists
00:49:31.10\00:49:35.54
and Hindus and atheists,
assuming the best, and hoping,
00:49:35.54\00:49:39.51
it reminds me of this poem,
and the theology here may be a
00:49:39.51\00:49:43.81
little different than we're used
to, but it goes like this, I
00:49:43.81\00:49:45.35
dreamed death came the other
night and heaven's gates swung
00:49:45.35\00:49:48.48
wide, and with kindly grace,
an angel ushered me inside.
00:49:48.48\00:49:52.39
That's the only way
we're getting in, by the way.
00:49:52.39\00:49:54.16
But there, to my astonishment
stood folks I'd known on
00:49:54.16\00:49:58.76
earth.
00:49:58.76\00:49:59.86
Some I judged and labeled
unfit or of little worth.
00:49:59.86\00:50:02.40
Indignant words came to my
lips, but never were set free.
00:50:02.40\00:50:08.24
Every face showed stunned
surprise, no one expected me.
00:50:08.24\00:50:12.74
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:50:12.74\00:50:14.74
I love that.
00:50:14.74\00:50:15.88
>>JAMES: I wanna
go back to your story.
00:50:15.88\00:50:19.25
I wanna go back to the story
about how you recoiled from
00:50:19.25\00:50:24.22
Calvinism and yet,
somehow, here you are.
00:50:24.22\00:50:28.42
>>DAVID: Well, okay, so three
years later, because I was a
00:50:28.42\00:50:32.36
vegetarian, vegan kid, 23
years old, purple hair punk
00:50:32.36\00:50:37.80
rocker, and a vegetarian
restaurant opens up in my
00:50:37.80\00:50:40.07
town, and it was run by
Tom and Mary Burnt and they had
00:50:40.07\00:50:44.27
somebody that worked there
occasionally and regularly was
00:50:44.27\00:50:47.18
there, his name was
Joshua Marco, he was studying
00:50:47.18\00:50:49.24
electrical engineering at
the local university in Rapid
00:50:49.24\00:50:53.72
City, South Dakota.
00:50:53.72\00:50:55.25
And I would just go in and
ask questions, just you know me,
00:50:55.25\00:50:57.99
I'm a talker, so I'm talking
to them about things, and at
00:50:57.99\00:51:00.29
one point, I'm
asking questions about their
00:51:00.29\00:51:02.36
religion, about God, etcetera,
and Mary says to me, would you
00:51:02.36\00:51:06.76
like to take bible studies?
00:51:06.76\00:51:09.76
So, I say, sure, I'm up
for anything, I'll take bible
00:51:09.76\00:51:12.17
studies.
00:51:12.17\00:51:13.37
And so, a week or so later,
she sets up bible studies, not
00:51:13.37\00:51:16.67
with me and her.
00:51:16.67\00:51:17.81
I think I actually thought
they were gonna be with her,
00:51:17.81\00:51:19.57
but she set them up with
this fellow Josh that had come
00:51:19.57\00:51:22.91
around, and interestingly
enough, like Tim that
00:51:22.91\00:51:25.11
witnessed to me, Josh was
also a rock climber, 'cause that
00:51:25.11\00:51:27.68
was my life at the time, I
was just a rock climbing maniac
00:51:27.68\00:51:29.68
and skateboarding, but mainly
rock climbing at that point.
00:51:29.68\00:51:32.12
So, I sit down in this bible
study with Josh, and I just
00:51:32.12\00:51:35.56
had the same two questions
for him that I had for Tim.
00:51:35.56\00:51:39.63
And I fully expected
the identical answers.
00:51:39.63\00:51:42.83
I'm there, it's like,
okay, look, I'll come in, I love
00:51:42.83\00:51:45.10
your food, I'm happy to
sort of, you know, yeah, I'll do
00:51:45.10\00:51:48.94
you a favor, take this little
bible study, and so, I say to
00:51:48.94\00:51:51.14
him, basically the same thing,
I don't remember the exact
00:51:51.14\00:51:53.31
articulation, but it
was the same two questions.
00:51:53.31\00:51:55.54
Number one, what about
all these people, these
00:51:55.54\00:51:58.31
non-Christian people, whether
Hindus or Muslims or Jews or
00:51:58.31\00:52:01.95
atheists or whatever,
Sikhs, what about them?
00:52:01.95\00:52:05.55
Number one, and number tow,
what about this whole eternal
00:52:05.55\00:52:07.22
conscience torment thing?
00:52:07.22\00:52:09.82
So, to my astonishment, in
answer to the first question,
00:52:09.82\00:52:12.83
he's like, well, let
me show you in scripture.
00:52:12.83\00:52:14.73
So, he's got a bible
there, and he takes me to Romans
00:52:14.73\00:52:16.23
chapter 2, when the Gentiles,
who do not have a law-abiding
00:52:16.23\00:52:18.67
nature, the things
contained in the law...
00:52:18.67\00:52:20.70
>>JAMES: Love those verses.
00:52:20.70\00:52:21.70
nature, the things
contained in the law...
00:52:21.80\00:52:23.84
>>JAMES: Love those verses.
00:52:23.84\00:52:24.84
>>DAVID: That's in the bible?
00:52:26.84\00:52:28.31
And then he takes me to James,
what is it, 4:17, for him who
00:52:28.31\00:52:30.18
knows good and does it
not, to him, it is sin.
00:52:30.18\00:52:31.61
Okay, well, what
about the hell thing?
00:52:31.61\00:52:36.25
And then, he just gives me
this like 4 or 5, 6 text bible
00:52:36.25\00:52:38.99
study, starting with John
3:16, for God so loved the
00:52:38.99\00:52:41.52
world that he gave his
only begotten Son that whosoever
00:52:41.52\00:52:43.53
believes in him
should not perish.
00:52:43.53\00:52:45.53
He starts there, then he does
Romans 6:23, the wages of sin
00:52:45.53\00:52:48.83
is death, gives me this
5, 6, 7 text bible study.
00:52:48.83\00:52:53.54
Scales like fall from
my eyes, not literally, but
00:52:53.54\00:52:55.94
figuratively, and in that
moment, in that second, that
00:52:55.94\00:52:58.84
was probably about a 30 minute
interaction, instantaneously,
00:52:58.84\00:53:02.28
the God of scripture that I
was totally sealed off to, is
00:53:02.28\00:53:06.35
now credible, viable, and
it would be 6 months and I was
00:53:06.35\00:53:13.22
baptized as a follower of Jesus.
00:53:13.22\00:53:16.69
So, speaking autobiographically,
I can resonate
00:53:16.69\00:53:19.79
with, maybe, no, I wouldn't
use Wesley's exact language,
00:53:19.79\00:53:23.26
but I resonate with Wesley,
I resonate with Jefferson.
00:53:23.26\00:53:27.27
I just don't see it biblically.
00:53:27.27\00:53:30.01
And now, 20 years on, 20
years on, having read scripture
00:53:30.01\00:53:34.31
through again and again
and again and again, I can see
00:53:34.31\00:53:36.38
that the point of the five
points of Calvinism, I get it,
00:53:36.38\00:53:40.02
to protect the grace of
God, I get it, but I think the
00:53:40.02\00:53:43.28
doctrinal
system is insufficient.
00:53:43.28\00:53:47.56
I think it's inadequate,
and it still raises such
00:53:47.56\00:53:49.86
unanswerable questions
about God's essential nature and
00:53:49.86\00:53:54.50
character.
00:53:54.50\00:53:55.53
>>TY: And that's a
primary issue, isn't it?
00:53:55.53\00:53:57.23
What kind of God is portrayed
in the theological system?
00:53:57.23\00:54:01.40
And the response, generally,
not always, but the response
00:54:01.40\00:54:05.57
generally from Calvin, from
Luther was, this is God we're
00:54:05.57\00:54:09.84
talking about, how dare you ask.
00:54:09.84\00:54:13.05
So, God's sovereignty even
blocks off the potential for
00:54:13.05\00:54:17.32
probing the questions.
00:54:17.32\00:54:18.95
God chooses to do what
he's going to do, his wisdom is
00:54:18.95\00:54:21.92
inscrutable, you'll never
comprehend it, this is what
00:54:21.92\00:54:25.26
God is doing and you're a mere
creature, you don't question
00:54:25.26\00:54:30.27
God.
00:54:30.27\00:54:31.43
>>JEFFERY: We should connect
this to the train of thought
00:54:31.43\00:54:32.80
that we've been
building on, right?
00:54:32.80\00:54:34.40
We began with the Hebrew
conception of reality and the
00:54:34.40\00:54:37.91
Hebrew worldview, and
we've basically described the
00:54:37.91\00:54:42.11
transition from that to
a Greek view, how does this
00:54:42.11\00:54:45.98
conversation play into
that narrative that we've been
00:54:45.98\00:54:50.19
building?
00:54:50.19\00:54:51.39
Because this is just basically
an illustration, this is one
00:54:51.39\00:54:56.09
manifestation, yeah, an
instance, a manifestation of
00:54:56.09\00:54:59.93
this bigger issue that
we've been talking about of this
00:54:59.93\00:55:03.23
biblical, Hebrew way
of looking at reality.
00:55:03.23\00:55:06.97
And losing that.
00:55:06.97\00:55:09.60
>>TY: Well, we only have one
minute left to answer that big
00:55:09.60\00:55:11.51
question, so we're gonna have
to take it up next time, but
00:55:11.51\00:55:14.11
go for it, David.
00:55:14.11\00:55:15.41
>>DAVID: My view is this,
both Luther and Calvin read Paul
00:55:15.41\00:55:20.85
and the other biblical
writers, but especially Paul
00:55:20.85\00:55:23.22
through the lens of their
own times, assuming, quite
00:55:23.22\00:55:27.36
incorrectly that Paul's
enemies were as their own.
00:55:27.36\00:55:30.39
So, they are reading a first
century text, in the case of
00:55:30.39\00:55:33.40
the New Testament,
through 16th century eyes.
00:55:33.40\00:55:35.90
The call for us today is to
read a first century text, in
00:55:35.90\00:55:39.43
so far as its possible for
us, through first century eyes.
00:55:39.43\00:55:42.90
>>TY: And I'll go a step
further and say that Luther
00:55:42.90\00:55:46.04
and Calvin, both of whom
were ardent devoted students of
00:55:46.04\00:55:50.51
Augustine, were reading Romans
and Paul through Augustinian
00:55:50.51\00:55:56.52
eyes, and Augustine himself
was a devoted student of the
00:55:56.52\00:56:02.62
writings of Plato, and so,
there's a lineage of thought
00:56:02.62\00:56:05.76
there, but we're gonna have
to explore that in a lot greater
00:56:05.76\00:56:08.70
detail next time.
00:56:08.70\00:56:10.13
This has been a really
fun discussion, thanks guys.
00:56:10.13\00:56:13.07
>>JAMES: Good way to finish up.
00:56:13.07\00:56:15.50
[Music]
00:56:15.50\00:56:22.54
?usic]
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