Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000504A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:20 >>TY: Man, we've covered a lot of territory so far in our 00:23 first three sessions and we've basically spent a lot of time 00:28 laying groundwork. 00:30 We haven't actually gotten into the Protestant 00:32 reformation as of yet, but we're gonna begin creeping in 00:34 that direction right now. 00:36 But, David, when we were talking during the break, we 00:40 were pointing out that we can't just jump from the 00:44 prophecies of Paul and of Daniel about the great falling 00:48 away that was going to occur, and just leap all the way to 00:51 Luther. 00:52 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's a big jump. 00:54 >>TY: Yeah, that's a lot of centuries that have passed. 00:57 So, help us walk through the developmental process by which 01:03 we get the falling away because it didn't happen 01:07 overnight. 01:08 >>JEFFERY: We need about 1,000 years of history in about 30 01:11 seconds. 01:12 >>DAVID: Thirty seconds? 01:14 So, okay, so here's what I would say right out of the 01:16 gate, and I wanna hear from you guys as well. 01:18 What you end up with coming out of post-Contantinian 01:22 Christianity, after the time of Constantine, all the way 01:24 through what's called the medieval period or the dark 01:27 ages until we get to the Protestant reformation. 01:29 There are, I would say, there are a number of factors, but I 01:32 would say the three primary factors that are influencing 01:35 that period of history would be, number one, the 01:37 relationship of the church to this day, which we've 01:40 described, right? 01:41 Because you have Constantine as now the head of the church 01:45 at some level, but also he's the head of the state, 01:49 imperial Rome. 01:49 And that sort of what imbibed, that idea of the 01:53 interconnectedness of church and state, that just goes on, 01:55 that's the cold that Christianity has caught and 01:58 still has, number one. 02:00 Number one is the relationship with the church and the state. 02:02 Number two is what we might call the de-Judaization of the 02:06 Christian faith. 02:08 The de-Judaization is just what it sounds like. 02:10 The un-Jewishing of the Christian faith. 02:14 >>JEFFERY: Or the Greekizing. 02:15 >>DAVID: Well, that's the number third thing. 02:16 So, it's not just the absence of something, the taking away 02:18 of the Jewishness, it's the addition of Helenization. 02:22 So, number one, church-state, number two, de-Judaization, 02:25 number three, Helenization. 02:26 So, as you say, the lessening of the Jewish influence and 02:30 Hebrew thought that we started with and then the increase, 02:32 the turning up the volume on the Greeking of the faith. 02:35 And this is able to be illustrated in a number of 02:39 ways, and Jeffrey, you might know more about this than I 02:41 do, but in the early Christian influencers in the period 2nd, 02:47 3rd, 4th, 5th century, basically none of these guys 02:50 were Jews. 02:52 They were not Hebrews. 02:53 Many of them didn't speak, read, or write Hebrew. 02:56 They were Greeks. 02:58 Right? 02:59 Greek influence, and so, I read this great quotation 03:01 years ago from Jaroslav Pelikan and his, the 03:03 development of Christian doctrine. 03:05 Five volume set. 03:07 In the first volume, he says, look, this is the way to think 03:09 about it. 03:10 The Jews, the apostolic church, they thought of 03:13 Judaism, we're talking about the believers in Christ, they 03:16 thought about the Judaism as their mother, right? 03:21 This is the breast at which they nursed, this is how 03:23 they've received the life that they have. 03:25 But in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th centuries and beyond, the 03:30 early church fathers thought of Judaism as their mother in 03:32 law. 03:35 Right? 03:36 There's a difference. 03:37 Because there wasn't that connection, that familial, 03:39 social, cultural connection with Judaism. 03:41 And so, a number of things are gonna start appearing on the 03:45 sort of theological landscape of the Christian faith, and a 03:48 number of things are gonna start disappearing. 03:50 >>JEFFERY: But I think there's a few things on that, a few 03:53 quick things is the why behind that, alright? 03:56 So, the apostolic church, evangelism, right, the message 04:02 spreads throughout Europe and we have an influx of Gentiles, 04:07 right? 04:08 We have an influx of non-Hebrew people joining the 04:12 church and as that takes place, the final generation of 04:16 the apostles passes away, dies. 04:18 The last of the apostles, and then, slowly, we find a 04:22 situation where the majority of the leadership is now 04:24 non-Jewish, and then, you have a situation where under the 04:29 Roman empire, now, Rome begins to identify the Jews as a 04:35 problem and begins to persecute the Jews and now, 04:38 you have these Gentile believers inside the same 04:41 church with these Jewish believers, but they begin to 04:44 wanna distance, yeah, from the Jews in order to not be lumped 04:49 together with this problematic community that Caesar is after 04:54 and so, as they're incentivized to separate, that 04:58 just adds a thicker line between their Hebrew ancestry. 05:04 >>DAVID: Yes, and not just socially, not just culturally 05:07 there was a separation, for our purposes here, there was a 05:10 theological separation. 05:12 So, that's what we mean by the de-Judaization, you're losing 05:14 the Jewish influence, and with that, you're gonna lose a lot 05:17 of points of theological contact. 05:19 Sanctuary, Sabbath, anthropological monism, the 05:23 idea that when you die, you sleep and awake the 05:25 resurrection. 05:26 But on the scene is gonna come a whole bunch of new ideas. 05:30 So, what we have are these sort of simultaneous, this 05:33 vortex of very interesting factors that are gonna create, 05:38 cumulatively, a church by the time we get into Luther's 05:43 time, even before that, when we get into the middle of the 05:46 medieval period, it is virtually unrecognizable. 05:51 >>JEFFERY: We should also mention that during the 05:52 Constantine period that we've been talking about, now we 05:54 have a political incentive from an emperor now to make 05:59 Christianity palatable to a broader audience, so now you 06:04 have a politician who needs stability throughout the 06:08 empire and everybody knows that the stabilizer is to get 06:14 everybody on the same page, and in order to now 06:16 accommodate all of these different pagans that have 06:20 come into the church, now we have the introduction of all 06:22 these different, you were saying... 06:24 >>TY: So, times haven't changed at all, people are 06:26 inclined to use popular religious movements for 06:33 political ends, just like we see taking place in our 06:35 political world today and for all of our whole lifetimes, 06:39 it's always advantageous for an American presidential 06:45 candidate, going back through all of American history, 06:50 pretty much, to identify with the huge voting block that is 06:55 Christianity. 06:57 So, Constantine is just doing the same thing, at his time. 07:00 He's seeing all of these people and Christianity is 07:05 taking over the empire, so, he identifies with the thing 07:08 that's overtaking and then, he himself redefines the thing by 07:12 infusing into it principles that are foreign to it. 07:16 >>DAVID: That's exactly right, and there are a number of 07:19 factors that are swirling together here, one of which is 07:21 the Constantine reality, the other is the de-Judaization, 07:26 now, we have the Greeking of the faith. 07:28 And here's another big one, prior to Constantine, there 07:31 were some fairly significant persecutions, historically, of 07:34 the Christian church, and when those people were persecuted, 07:37 this created almost a strengthening or a resolve the 07:42 in the church. 07:43 Where, in the post-Constantinian world, 07:46 you're now like, okay, well, who are the new heroes of the 07:48 faith? 07:49 Who are the martyrs, who are those that are willing to lay 07:51 down their lives? 07:52 And in subsequent centuries, you actually have the rise or 07:54 the birth of what would come to be known as monasticism. 07:58 People that would take very specific and self-limiting 08:01 vows, aesthetic vows, things like I will not have sex, 08:06 celibacy, I will take a vow of poverty, in some extreme 08:10 cases, I will take a vow of silence, I will take a vow of 08:13 obedience to the rule of the order. 08:15 So, what you have now are these sort of newly emerging 08:20 ways to be super Christian, because nobody's being burned 08:22 at the stake. 08:23 >>TY: That are super Greek and not Hebrew at all. 08:25 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's exactly right. 08:27 >>TY: Because the Hebrew way of processing God and theology 08:30 and life is very social, very much grounded in fellowship, 08:35 God is a fellowshipping God, and for Hebrew ways of 08:38 thinking, food is a part of the sacred, daily interaction 08:44 with God's creation. 08:46 In the Jewish way of thinking, the creation itself, including 08:49 the human body and its sexuality isn't evil in and of 08:54 itself. 08:55 It can be misused, but it's actually to be celebrated, and 08:58 so, you start having this movement take place away from 09:04 biblical Christianity and a holistic view of the world and 09:08 mankind. 09:09 >>JEFFERY: And also, what I do to my, what I do to my person 09:12 as an expression of my vow to God. 09:18 Like we were saying, you know, depreciating your body, right? 09:22 That would later lead to other things. 09:25 Yeah. 09:28 The physical is a shell, what matters is the spiritual 09:30 inside. 09:31 >>TY: The body's bad, the soul is good, and at least for 09:35 Plato, the soul existed in some form prior to its present 09:41 inhabiting of a physical body. 09:44 >>JEFFERY: And the goal is to shed the shell. 09:47 >>TY: The goal is to shed it and get back, and that's why, 09:49 according to Plato, that's why we have notions of virtue and 09:53 justice and beauty. 09:55 According to him, we have these faint memories of being 10:00 a part of something prior to inhabiting this body and the 10:04 goal has gotta be to bring the body into subjection, to 10:07 separate from the physical part of creation in order to 10:12 be holy, in order to ascend. 10:14 >>DAVID: So, if you take celibacy as a case in point, 10:16 celibacy emerges, the idea of celibacy comes into the 10:23 Christian world, both for Christian reasons, not 10:27 actually Christian reasons, but theological reasons. 10:30 Hey, I will show God my devotion, but also for Greek 10:34 reasons. 10:35 Right? 10:36 A distancing form the body, a distancing from bodily 10:38 pleasures, and so, what you have now, even today, in many 10:43 cultures, sort of, cultures is the wrong word. 10:46 In many church situations, celibacy or virginity is 10:51 celebrated. 10:52 Now, just a point on that. 10:54 The reason that celibacy and virginity are celebrated, and 10:57 they'll trace that back to like the Virgin Mary. 10:59 This is key, biblically speaking. 11:02 It's not because celibacy was virtuous, and it's not because 11:06 virginity was virtuous in and of itself, it's because you 11:08 were waiting to be with the one. 11:12 You follow? 11:14 >>JEFFERY: You're saying this is the original reason. 11:15 >>DAVID: I'm saying this is textual. 11:17 So, that virginal characteristic is beautiful, 11:20 it's virtuous, it's wonderful, because you are saving 11:23 yourself for the one with whom you are... 11:26 >>JEFFERY: It's participatory, yeah. 11:28 >>DAVID: But as a number of instancing, fasting, 11:31 obedience, poverty, all of these things that in and of 11:33 themselves, situationally could be virtuous, became ends 11:37 in themselves. 11:38 Means by which a sort of... 11:40 >>TY: Merit is gained. 11:41 >>DAVID: Merit is gained and a super Christian is emerging, 11:45 because you don't have martyrs anymore. 11:47 So, you have this whole, you know, down through the ages, 11:49 incrementally, it's impossible to talk about the emergence of 11:53 medieval Christianity in a fell swoop. 11:56 It's taking place very slowly, incrementally, on at least two 12:00 tracks, you have the theological track. 12:02 >>TY: It would've happened faster if they had had the 12:04 internet. 12:06 It had to take place very slowly because they were all 12:10 separated by space and yeah. 12:12 >>DAVID: Fair enough, so you have the theological track and 12:14 you have these incremental departures. 12:17 You wrote some of those down, Ty, these incremental 12:19 departures. 12:20 But then you also have the political track. 12:22 So, on these two tracks, the church, to take my 12:26 illustration to its conclusion here, went off the rails. 12:29 Right? 12:30 So, incremental, in the same way that you become obese, it 12:32 doesn't happen, you don't just wake up one day and say, man, 12:35 you know, I'm 50 pounds overweight. 12:37 That happened a pound at a time. 12:40 So, by the time we get down to Luther, and Luther's got, he's 12:43 gonna look at the text of scripture, he's gonna look at 12:45 the church, he's gonna... 12:47 >>TY: Yeah, where did all this come from? 12:49 >>DAVID: It happened incrementally over centuries 12:52 and centuries. 12:53 >>TY: Where did it come from? 12:55 Where did it come from? 12:56 >>DAVID: And to trace, you know, many of the things that 12:58 we end up with through medieval Christianity 13:00 we've just mentioned celibacy and a few other 13:03 things, you would have to go back and look whether you're 13:04 talking about, you know, prayers to Mary, or you know, 13:07 the idea of the Eucharist or you can trace all of those 13:10 back to specific events and situations in history that 13:14 gave birth to kind of what is called legendary 13:17 embellishment. 13:18 It just got a little more and then a little more and then a 13:20 little more, until eventually, you kind of hit the bottom of 13:26 church history here and what you have that's Christianity 13:30 bears virtually no resemblance to the church that Jesus 13:33 established. 13:34 And then, there's this call, you know, Luther's call for 13:39 reformation. 13:40 >>TY: Not only the point that you're making, but a lot of 13:43 these embellishments become tools of control and also 13:51 monetary gain for those who are in charge and so, it's 13:54 advantageous to have a religious system for those who 13:58 are leading the religious system in which they prescribe 14:02 and people subscribe to what they're prescribing and 14:07 there's an exchange of money involved and there is prestige 14:11 because those who are engaged in the super spiritual 14:15 activities occupy a position in people's imaginations in 14:21 their minds. 14:22 >>DAVID: Hey, that's what Christianity looks like, 14:23 that's super spiritual. 14:24 >>TY: I need to ascend to that, too. 14:26 I mean, I'm not. 14:27 They're low, I'm high, I'm low, they're high, but I could 14:32 occasionally engage in these disciplines, or I could pay 14:36 hard cold cash in order to be a part of the super spiritual 14:42 elite. 14:44 So, all of this is developing over a long period of time 14:49 because the principle of self-exaltation or the 14:55 principle of preeminence that James called our attention to 14:58 in 3 John is gradually just taking hold, taking hold, 15:03 taking hold. 15:04 And the picture of God that is communicated through the law 15:07 and the prophets of a covenantal God of self-giving, 15:10 self-sacrificing love is giving way to a picture of God 15:15 or theology in which God now is occupying the position of 15:20 requiring, exacting, demanding. 15:23 >>DAVID: It's duty, responsibility, have to, must, 15:27 not get to, joy, delight. 15:29 In 1 Timothy chapter 4, that's a case in point, another 15:34 passage that speaks about the coming apostasy, it actually 15:38 says now, the spirit, 1 Timothy chapter 4, verse 1, 15:40 now the spirit expressly says that in the latter times, some 15:44 will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving 15:46 spirits and doctrines of demons. 15:48 >>TY: That's heavy. 15:50 >>DAVID: Doctrines that are at odds with the faith that had 15:53 been committed to the apostles and prophets, and then, it's 15:55 fascinating, verse 2, speaking lies and hypocrisy, having 15:59 their own conscience seared with a hot iron, and the first 16:01 thing that's mentioned there in the list is forbidding to 16:05 marry. 16:06 Forbidding to marry. 16:08 Now, when you go back to Genesis 1 and 2, and God says 16:11 it was good, man, that was good, it was good, it was 16:13 good, it was good, it was good, it was good, the only 16:15 thing in Genesis 1 and 2 that the God of scripture says was 16:18 not good was that man should be alone because there's this 16:23 sexual, social... 16:24 >>TY: Which, he did translate, the only thing that's not good 16:26 is celibacy. 16:27 >>DAVID: Yeah, and now, we have, think of that total 16:30 reversal of fortune. 16:32 Now, we have in, you know, in the monastic period in this 16:35 sort of, heading into the medieval period, celibacy is 16:39 regarded as, oh, that's a pinnacle of Christian 16:43 devotion, look at that. 16:45 And God's like, no, I didn't ask you to do that. 16:48 That's not on the... 16:50 >>JAMES: Didn't even hint at it. 16:52 I mean, Paul might a little bit, but. 16:54 >>DAVID: Right, like Jesus himself. 16:56 >>JAMES: He's the same one that said this. 16:58 >>DAVID: And Jesus said, look, there are some that are 17:00 eunuchs for various reasons, but on the whole, clearly, the 17:04 ideal plan of God is a man with a woman, coming together 17:08 in selfless love and mutuality and connectivity, that's the 17:10 plan. 17:11 But now we have a reversal of that. 17:14 >>JEFFERY: It's interesting what you just said because the 17:16 monastic movement would invoke passages like 1 Corinthians 7 17:20 to Paul to be celibate. 17:23 >>DAVID: That's cherry picking. 17:24 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, because here you have Paul saying, that's 17:27 not a thing. 17:29 not a thing. 17:31 That's not a normative, no, no. 17:34 >>JAMES: Specially if you get on in time, it's gonna be 17:35 dangerous. 17:36 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, so that's really interesting. 17:38 >>JAMES: Well, I think, here's the key point, here. 17:39 This is a doctrine now. 17:42 What Jesus is talking about, it's not a doctrine when 17:44 Jesus, well, there's some people. 17:45 Yeah, but this is a doctrine. 17:49 They're forbidding. 17:51 >>DAVID: That's different. 17:52 If somebody opts out, like, I've got a good friend who 17:54 just said, you know, I just gave my life to mission work 17:56 in Nepal. 17:57 There's this amazing woman, her name is Helen, she's given 17:59 her entire work to mission work in Nepal, 37 years, and 18:03 she said, I just never had time. 18:05 She's, the stories, she was just in our church recently, 18:07 the stories that this woman is telling, like, the life she 18:10 has lived, you just throw your hands up and say, thank you 18:13 Jesus, and you ask her, she says, look, that was never 18:15 really an option for the life that God carved out for me. 18:18 But it wasn't somebody saying to her, you can't. 18:21 It was a choice she made. 18:22 >>TY: Yeah. 18:23 Well, let's take a break on that note and come back and 18:26 maybe talk about some of the other layers of ideas and 18:33 practices that got brought in to build into this monolithic 18:39 power that Luther stood up to. 18:42 [Music] 18:53 >>The bible is a big book. 18:55 It's composed of 66 smaller books, written by more than 40 19:00 different authors. 19:02 It's easy to get bogged down in all the genealogies, 19:05 ancient history and intersecting characters with 19:08 unpronounceable names. 19:10 And yet, the bible is full of rich and powerful truths that 19:15 all of us need to understand. 19:18 Wouldn't you love to have an experienced tour guide take 19:21 you on a step-by-step journey through some of the most 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what we're saying is that the 20:45 papacy didn't manifest overnight. 20:47 This thing was built over centuries of compromise, the 20:52 de-Judaizing of Christianity, the Helenization of 20:57 Christianity, and all kinds of things began to come up 21:01 missing gradually and other things put into place. 21:05 So, here's a basic outline, see what you guys think of 21:08 this, of some of the times where certain things were 21:12 introduced into the picture. 21:14 Around 600, Latin prayer in worship was introduced. 21:19 Now, why Latin prayer? 21:21 Why not the language of the people that are listening? 21:24 But this sounded more holy, more elevated. 21:29 Why would the common people understand? 21:31 This, again, is a mechanism of control. 21:34 There are few people who understand, there are a bunch 21:36 of people who do not. 21:37 Also, in 600, we have the development of prayer to Mary 21:41 and to the saints and to the angels. 21:43 We have that nowhere in scripture. 21:45 >>DAVID: Just a quick pause on that, I'll give the one minute 21:47 version of how some of that came about. 21:49 Prior to the conversion of Constantine, there were a 21:52 series of very significant persecutions, and in these 21:57 persecutions, there were some of the Christian believers 21:59 that gave up their faith. 22:01 You know, they're being tortured, they're having the 22:02 bottoms of their feet being burned with hot irons or 22:04 they're being, you know, stretched, and they say, okay, 22:07 okay, I give up my faith. 22:08 And so, these people were then released, but they were 22:10 regarded by some in the Christian church as what were 22:13 called lapsed. 22:14 That was the term, they were lapsed. 22:16 They denied Christ, they denied the faith. 22:18 There were some, though, even under the duress of torture 22:21 and pain that did not lapse and they were called 22:25 confessors. 22:27 So, when the persecutions finally died out, there was a 22:30 debate and controversy about, like, hey, what do we do with 22:33 these lapsed people? 22:35 Do we just let them back into church? 22:36 After all, they denied God and they denied Jesus. 22:37 And there was a movement that said, we can't let these 22:39 people back into church, and that was called novationism, 22:42 the pure. 22:43 Keep these people out. 22:44 The church is just for the pure. 22:45 And fascinatingly, the way that they got around that, how 22:49 do we let these people back in, is they said that those 22:52 that were the confessors that did not deny their faith, they 22:55 must have had a surplus of grace. 22:58 They must've had a reservoir that was not exhausted, they 23:00 must have had extra, so we'll take some of that extra and 23:04 apply it to the lapsed. 23:06 And then, it was the bishops or the clerics that decided 23:08 who received this reservoir of merit. 23:12 So, this idea... 23:13 >>TY: You can see the beginnings of purgatory. 23:15 >>DAVID: You got it. 23:16 All of these things that became doctrines have a 23:18 historical mooring. 23:20 >>JAMES: Matthew 25 wouldn't have allowed that. 23:21 the ten virgins? 23:23 >>DAVID: You lost me there. 23:24 >>JAMES: Give us of your oil. 23:25 We can't, you gotta go. 23:26 >>DAVID: Yeah, exactly, you can't transfer that. 23:28 Yeah, gotcha. 23:30 It's not like they just sat around a table like we are and 23:32 said, hey, let's come up with some kooky stuff. 23:34 No, these were historical realities that created 23:38 something. 23:39 >>JAMES: Church experiences that led to these development 23:42 of these... 23:43 >>DAVID: Anyway, you were going down a list. 23:44 >>TY: Around 700, we have the development of venerating the 23:50 pope in a very strange way, kissing his feet, again, 23:53 bringing the church member down and elevating the man 23:57 above. 23:59 Okay, around 786, the veneration of the cross and 24:03 images and relics is introduced. 24:06 927, the college of cardinals is developed. 24:10 995, the canonization of dead individuals as saints, you 24:17 know. 24:18 So, let's now, this person who died is in a super spiritual 24:22 category. 24:23 >>DAVID: Somebody to whom you can pray. 24:25 >>TY: And they're gonna mediate on your behalf. 24:26 Around 1000, mass becomes mandatory, this isn't 24:34 optional. 24:35 >>DAVID: Hey, what are we doing on Sunday morning? 24:37 I'll tell you. 24:38 >>TY: I'll tell you exactly what you're doing, you're 24:40 taking mass. 24:42 1079, celibacy of the priesthood. 24:45 Now, we've talked about celibacy being introduced in 24:47 individual cases and in developing monasticism, but 24:52 now, it's become an order. 24:55 >>DAVID: Forbidding to marry. 24:56 >>TY: Yeah, an actual system where the super spiritual 24:59 commit themselves to celibacy. 25:03 1090, the rosary and repetitious prayer introduced. 25:07 1190, the sale of indulgences. 25:11 >>DAVID: This is the thing that's really gonna be in 25:12 Luther's bonnet, 1190. 25:15 >>TY: Reducing time in purgatory by the purchasing of 25:18 indulgences, which indicates that somewhere along the way, 25:23 Christians are beginning to think in a more Hellenized way 25:27 and a less Jewish way by believing that when people 25:31 die, that they're somewhere, in some conscious form, 25:34 because if some of them are in purgatory, then, you know, you 25:39 can buy indulgences to get time off for them of their 25:41 suffering, so that's taking place somewhere along the way, 25:43 and in 1215, transubstantiation. 25:48 >>DAVID: We'll have to spend time at some point talking 25:49 about that. 25:50 >>TY: Also in 1215, confession to the priest rather than me 25:58 confessing my sins directly to God through Christ, now, 26:02 through a human priesthood. 26:04 >>DAVID: That's the sacrament of reconciliation, one of the 26:07 7 sacraments. 26:08 >>JEFFERY: I'm surprised it's that late in history. 26:11 >>TY: So, yeah, those are some of the things that are 26:13 developing along the way, and indulgences, as you said, you 26:17 know, becomes a bee in the bonnet of Luther, I mean, at 26:23 first, he's actually sold out to all of this. 26:25 >>DAVID: Of course. 26:27 >>TY: He's an Augustinian monk. 26:30 So, Luther isn't a Protestant by any stretch of the 26:34 imagination, until later on and other individuals are 26:39 categorizing him as a Protestant. 26:42 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, he had no desire to even break. 26:45 He was thinking, I'm just contributing, I'm helping out 26:49 here, I'll bring a few things up because we need a little 26:52 reform within. 26:54 And of course, it didn't really go that route. 26:56 >>TY: Yeah, he wanted reform and it wasn't until the 27:00 protest of the princes that the word protest was 27:03 introduced, we're actually protesting some serious, 27:08 serious violations of scripture, namely, the 27:10 violation of individual conscience, and the church 27:13 encroaching upon the state and saying, you know, the church 27:16 is going to dictate to the state what's going to be, and 27:19 the state, the princes, the political leaders, pushed back 27:23 on that and said, no, you're not. 27:25 We're protesting your power, dictating to us as states 27:30 what's going to be in our realms and our territories. 27:33 And so, that's where we get the Protestant reformation. 27:35 Luther is reforming and then the protest follows Luther and 27:41 he gets on board with it, for sure. 27:43 He finally comes to the conclusion that, in fact the 27:47 papacy is the antichrist, you know, his famous statement, if 27:50 there is a hell, Rome is built over it. 27:53 He comes to the conclusion that the papacy is, in fact, 27:55 the man of sin that was foretold in scripture by the 28:00 apostle Paul. 28:01 >>DAVID: I just recently read a book, a newly published 28:04 book, 2016, by a Catholic historian, Catholic historian 28:08 at Yale, Carlos Eire. 28:10 The book is titled Reformations, I think it's 28:12 1450-1650. 28:14 And in that period, he makes a fascinating parallel. 28:17 He says that, when Luther first went to Rome, I believe 28:21 that was in 1517, no, that was in 1510. 28:24 When Luther goes to Rome in 1510 on a pilgrimage, it's at 28:29 this time that Pope Julius the Second is saying, hey, we need 28:32 to build a bigger building, Saint Peter's basilica. 28:36 And that's gonna cost a huge amount of money, it's gonna 28:38 take a long time to do. 28:40 That will become the thing, that enterprise of building 28:43 this large building is gonna create a need for massive 28:45 amounts of money to come in to support this building project. 28:48 And so, he makes this point, Carlos Eire does that in, he 28:53 had no idea, right, it's just like one of those things where 28:55 you know, here comes Luther and the decisions being made 28:58 at this very time in 1510 about the building of the 29:00 basilica, that will become the thing that Luther will say, 29:03 no. 29:04 And so, fascinatingly, the desire to build a bigger 29:08 ediphus, the construction of a building becomes 29:11 paradoxically, ironically, the very thing that would bring 29:14 about the deconstruction of Roman Catholicism in Europe. 29:20 Hey, we're gonna build a bigger building, that's gonna 29:23 not set right, the way, the means that they'll raise money 29:25 for that, and that will eventually compromise 29:28 significantly in the church. 29:30 >>TY: By the way, we should point out for those sitting in 29:31 on the conversation with us that Carlos Eire, I don't know 29:34 if you mentioned this, is a Catholic himself. 29:37 And so, he's not giving a Protestant critique, he's 29:40 simply reporting the facts of history as they unfolded and 29:44 he's incriminating his own church in the process because 29:48 he's trying to be true to what actually unfolded in history, 29:52 yeah, that's right. 29:53 >>DAVID: So, do we wanna talk at all about Luther's 29:55 conversion? 29:57 >>TY: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. 29:59 Well, we're all familiar with the 1510 trip to Rome, the 30:06 pilgrimage to Rome. 30:07 But prior to that, we need to go earlier than that in 30:11 Luther's experience and realize that he was raised in 30:13 a home, a you know, lower, middle class home where at 30:19 least education would be something that could be done, 30:22 and his father wanted him to pursue law and he was actually 30:27 in law school for a period of time, and the story is told 30:30 that Luther was on his way back to the university, back 30:34 to law school, found himself in a thunderstorm where he 30:38 feared for his life, and this is very fascinating to me. 30:42 When a human being is confronted with their 30:45 mortality, their theology, their picture of God comes to 30:49 the surface, it just bubbles right up to the surface. 30:53 So, he is in fear for his life because of the lightning 30:57 that's striking all around him as he's making this journey 31:00 back to law school and his theology comes to the surface 31:04 and his theology comes to the surface something like, 31:08 oftentimes our theology comes to the surface. 31:11 His theology comes to the surface by him saying, God, if 31:16 you spare my life and get me through this storm, I strike a 31:20 bargain with you, I vow to you that I will quit law school 31:26 and I will become a monk. 31:28 I will commit myself to the holy order. 31:31 I will give myself to you, God, entirely. 31:33 Just spare my life. 31:36 His life is spared and conscientious fellow that he 31:41 is, he follows through with his commitment and Luther, to 31:45 his father's utter dismay, quits law school and enters 31:49 into the monastery and becomes an Augustinian monk. 31:54 So, right there at the beginning, he's devoted to 31:58 Catholicism, he's devoted at that point and his theology is 32:02 completely, completely distorted and through the 32:07 process of entering into the monastic order that he enters 32:12 into becoming an Augustinian monk, one of his professors 32:17 notices that he is just tormented with a haunting 32:23 sense of God's judgment. 32:25 Luther himself describes that his religious experience was 32:29 basically defined by fear of God's wrath and anything he 32:33 could do in order to mitigate or divert that wrath from 32:36 himself. 32:38 I mean, this is a kind of guy who is sleeping while there 32:41 is, you know, some kind of medieval makeshift mattress 32:44 filled with straw, at least it's cushy, and it's right 32:47 there and it's, you know, comfortable for the times, but 32:50 he's deliberately moving off the cushy thing to lay 32:54 straight on the floor and to basically impose pain on 32:58 himself in order to say to God, through those actions, 33:03 God, accept me on the premise of the pain that I'm 33:07 inflicting on myself. 33:10 This is a serious guy. 33:12 He is completely, completely devoted to the misconception 33:16 of God's character that he has. 33:17 >>DAVID: I wanna say just one brief thing there. 33:19 What Luther did was not anomalous. 33:22 It was in keeping with the theological perspective of his 33:24 time. 33:26 Right? 33:27 Like, oh, no, something really bad is happening, I will. 33:28 In other words, Luther is not, he doesn't stand out in that 33:31 respect. 33:33 That was the kind of thing that any number of hundreds of 33:34 other, thousands of other German young men could've 33:38 said. 33:39 That was the thing to do, it was just ubiquitous. 33:42 God, I'll do this for him and then everything will be 33:45 alright. 33:46 But he couldn't assuage the torment, the sense of guilt, 33:52 he just couldn't do it. 33:53 Scrubbing floors, sleeping on the floor. 33:56 I mean, all of that just wouldn't go away. 33:59 >>TY: Okay, so, now, fast-forward to 1510, when he 34:03 makes his pilgrimage to Rome and the fact is, again, they 34:06 didn't have the internet, there weren't pictures of what 34:09 was going on there, there weren't people blog posting 34:11 about what's going on. 34:13 He thinks it's holy place and people are just serving the 34:17 Lord. 34:18 And he gets to Rome and he encounters the abuse and 34:25 misuse of power, the abuse of people for power. 34:30 He witnesses that the priesthood is utterly 34:33 corrupted. 34:34 >>DAVID: The selling of all kinds of ridiculous relics. 34:36 >>TY: But, here's the thing, even though his picture of God 34:38 was completely distorted, one of his professors back at 34:43 school said, Luther, you need to read the book of Romans. 34:47 So, he had been reading the book of Romans, he'd been 34:50 reading the book of Romans, so when he comes to Rome... 34:53 >>JEFFERY: On his way to Rome, I didn't know that. 34:55 >>TY: Yeah, he comes to Rome and he determines to go up 34:58 Pilate's staircase on his knees 'til they're bloody, 35:01 hopefully, in order to earn God's favor and words that he 35:05 had written now have a context. 35:08 That he had read in Romans, words that he had read in 35:12 Romans now have a context as he is inflicting on himself 35:16 this pain in order to appease the wrath of God, he hears the 35:19 words, the just shall live by faith, and he stands up, gets 35:26 off of his knees, and there is just a small liberation that 35:30 is occurring right there where you realize, no, there's 35:33 something fundamentally wrong with approaching God in this 35:38 manner, and he stands up and he begins to be free from that 35:45 horrible sense of a guilty conscience that cannot at all 35:50 be satisfied before God. 35:54 >>DAVID: By something that we would do. 35:56 >>TY: By anything. 35:57 >>JEFFERY: you mentioned that he was on, it was through, via 35:59 Romans. 36:00 And I just remembered the awesome story of several 36:03 centuries later, John Wesley's in a chapel in London and he's 36:08 sitting in the back and somebody gets up and reads, 36:11 yeah, the preface, the introduction to Luther's 36:14 words. 36:15 And just by listening to the introduction of that book 36:18 right there. 36:20 >>JAMES: He had also been through a storm, he had also 36:21 come through this ship and come through this moment of 36:27 realization that he was petrified, there's the 36:30 connection. 36:31 >>JEFFERY: The preface of this book leads to the conversion 36:35 of John Wesley. 36:36 >>JAMES: In fact, it was the same thunderstorm just came 36:38 later. 36:38 Same rain and it's coming again. 36:40 >>TY: Actually, the preface to Luther's commentary in Romans, 36:44 Jeffrey, is the best part of the whole book. 36:46 He summarizes so much so fast here, he says in the first 36:50 paragraph that Romans is the purest gospel of all, and 36:53 then, he goes down and he says, what Paul is about to 36:57 break down for us are words like lost, sin, grace, faith, 37:01 righteousness, flesh, spirit, and then he says that little 37:04 word law began to be magnified, and he had to 37:08 pursue it. 37:09 He pursues it and then, Luther repeatedly begins to work 37:13 through this idea of the contrast between what Paul 37:18 calls the works of the law versus the fulfillment of the 37:20 law. 37:22 And he realizes the language, the works of the law means 37:24 compliance with the law externally in order to earn 37:29 God's favor out of fear of punishment or hope of reward. 37:33 That's how he characterizes it. 37:34 Then, he says, and I love this language, then he says, but 37:39 there's a different kind of obedience to the law, the 37:42 fulfillment of the law. 37:44 And he says, it is characterized by coming, his 37:47 words, not mine, from the bottom of the heart. 37:50 There's no fear of punishment. 37:53 There's no hope of reward that is a driving force here, it's 37:57 just from the bottom of the heart in the light of the 37:59 grace of God, and these are the kinds of concepts that 38:03 begin to set Luther free and cause him to reach out to God 38:08 in a whole new way that he's never known before. 38:12 So, we need to take a break, again, and we'll come right 38:17 back and pursue Luther a little bit further. 38:20 [Music] 38:31 Announcer: Truth is not merely a list of theological 38:34 facts, but rather the revelation of God's beautiful 38:37 love in Jesus Christ. 38:38 Truth Link is a series of bible study guides that 38:41 magnify God's love as the center of every bible 38:45 doctrine. 38:46 To receive your free copy of lesson one, call 877-585-1111 38:52 or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, 38:57 Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 39:00 Once again, to receive your free copy of Truth Link lesson 39:04 one, call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers, 39:10 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 39:17 [Music] 39:23 >>TY: So, Romans, the book of Romans was the catalyst for 39:26 Luther's transformation. 39:28 He began with a picture of God that was very dark and ugly 39:31 and foreboding and his whole experience with God was driven 39:35 by fear and a desire to merit or earn God's favor. 39:41 Well, he begins to realize, wait a minute, I can't earn 39:44 God's favor because I already have it. 39:47 He begins to realize, obedience to the law in order 39:52 to gain heaven or evade hell, fear of punishment, hope of 39:56 reward, has nothing to do with Jesus, my focus is still on 40:00 myself, I just wanna save my hide. 40:02 He begins to realize, and I love his language, that the 40:05 only kind of obedience that can be meaningful at all and 40:08 doesn't merit anything is obedience from the bottom of 40:11 the heart, from the bottom of the heart that is actuated by 40:16 love for the Savior because his love that is first 40:19 extended. 40:20 So, Jeffrey, you had something about Romans. 40:22 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, well, this idea of the law and his 40:25 understanding of Romans, I was reading the preface to Romans 40:29 and there's this powerful point where he's, at some 40:33 point in his career, he begins to get attacked as someone who 40:36 is downing the law, right? 40:38 >>JAMES: Paul or Luther? 40:40 >>JEFFERY: Luther, because his message is salvation by faith 40:42 alone, not by obedience of the law, which is also Paul, of 40:45 course. 40:46 And he turns the tables and he says, no, I, me, the one who 40:51 is emphasizing faith over the law, actually have a higher 40:56 view of the law than those of you who believe we're 40:59 justified by the law. 41:01 And can I read something? 41:02 This is straight from his word, this is powerful. 41:05 He says, you do everything without free desire and love 41:09 of the law, you act out of force. 41:13 You would rather act otherwise if the law didn't exist. 41:18 So, process that, process that. 41:20 Your framework says, you're justified by keeping the law. 41:23 But that's an internal battle. 41:25 Therefore, if it didn't exist, you would love to do 41:27 otherwise, but you can't just because the law exists, and 41:30 then, he says, it follows, then, that you in the depth of 41:35 your heart are an enemy of the law. 41:39 >>TY: Yeah, in the bottom of your heart again. 41:41 >>JEFFERY: Whereas he's saying, me, on the other hand, 41:44 I believe that the law makes demands on the heart. 41:47 We're justified by faith, right? 41:50 But a justified by works of the law framework actually has 41:55 a low view of the law. 41:57 So, there's this, he's just on a whole different level with 42:02 his understanding of justification. 42:04 >>TY: I had a similar conversation with a guy a 42:05 number of years ago, I had preached a sermon that was 42:08 very much focused on salvation by grace through faith in Christ 42:11 alone, and the discussion that we had was one in which he said, 42:16 I need to challenge your theology because you are 42:20 minimizing obedience to the law. 42:23 He said, I believe in, I believe that obedience to the 42:28 law of God is necessary and you don't. 42:32 And I said, you're exactly right. 42:34 You believe that obedience to the law of God is necessary 42:36 and I don't. 42:38 I said, I actually believe that the gospel dictates a 42:40 higher standard. 42:42 You believe that obedience to the law is necessary. 42:45 I believe that obedience to the law is inevitable. 42:49 You're hoping it's going to happen, I know it's going to 42:53 happen, because the gospel produces obedience of the 42:59 right character and quality from the heart, which isn't 43:03 under threat of hell or under bribe with heaven. 43:09 >>DAVID: Ty, you said something a few days ago, you 43:13 actually wrote it, and it just so registered with me, and you 43:15 might remember it exactly, but it was something like, if you 43:17 are doing what you're doing in order to escape punishment or 43:21 to gain a reward, then it's not really God you're 43:25 interested in. 43:26 There's something else going on there. 43:29 It's a subtle form of selfishness is what it is. 43:31 It's legalism exalts the self. 43:35 'Cause it's me, I. 43:37 >>JEFFERY: And from the beginning of the series, 43:39 that's what we've been talking about, right? 43:41 From the beginning, from Daniel, the issue is placing 43:44 ourselves, or man where God belongs. 43:48 >>TY: So, quickly, let's go to the 95 thesis. 43:49 What are those things all about? 43:50 Why does he do that? 43:52 What's the basic content of these things? 43:54 Do you even agree with all 95 of them. 43:56 >>DAVID: No. 43:58 Because Luther's writing from inside of the church as a 44:02 desired reformer of the church. 44:06 Not a Protestant reformer, but just a reformer, internal 44:08 reformer, of course. 44:09 Papal supremacy, and other things that we would push back 44:14 on. 44:15 It's important to recognize that what's happening there is that 44:18 as Luther in the sort of between 1510 and 1517, so he's gonna 44:22 nail the thesis to the door in 1517, right? 44:25 October of that year. 44:27 So, in that 7 year intervening period that you described, where 44:30 he stands up, the just shall live by faith, there's a whole 44:32 lot of bible study going on in there. 44:34 And now, there's so many factors that are emerging 44:37 here, but one of them is a growing sense of nationalism. 44:41 We're in the 16th century now, and the new emerging reality, 44:47 outside of the church, outside of Luther is that Germans are 44:50 becoming more, hey, we're German, and the French are 44:54 becoming, hey, we're French, where before, it had been the 44:56 holy Roman empire and it was what the pope was doing. 44:59 If what Luther tried to do, if what Luther did, he tried to 45:03 do 200 years before, it doesn't get off the ground. 45:06 It gets off the ground here because when Luther begins to 45:08 say the things that he says in the thesis, and Pope Leo the 45:12 Tenth says, hey, we got a problem, we're gonna take care 45:16 of this guy, Fredrick of Saxony who was one of the 45:20 electors, was the elector from Luther's area says, no, no, 45:23 no, no, I like my monk. 45:25 I like the prestige he brings, I like, we're keeping him. 45:27 So, there's all of these fascinating little 45:30 contingencies that if they don't line up historically, 45:33 providentially, we don't get this story. 45:36 >>TY: Right, right, the papacy's overextending its 45:38 power and people and individuals, princes, kings, 45:46 are beginning to back up from that power and say, listen, 45:49 this far, no further, and Luther gives voice to what 45:53 they're feeling. 45:54 >>JEFFERY: You know, what really strikes me about the 95 45:56 thesis, when you read down, I mean, when I got to the 80s 45:59 and there's like a simplicity and a sincerity in some of 46:05 those, yeah, when I read this, it doesn't sound profound, but 46:10 if you imagine yourself in this world, where that system 46:14 was the norm, he says, for example, in thesis 82, he 46:20 basically says, okay, wait, so there are thousands of souls 46:24 in purgatory and the pope has the power to get them out, and 46:29 then, he says this, so, why not just do it for free? 46:33 >>TY: [Laughter] 46:36 Yeah, why not do it for free? 46:37 If he likes people, he likes people. 46:40 >>JEFFERY: That's such a simple thought, and yet, it's 46:42 so profound. 46:43 So, wait, wait, wait, you have the power, so why don't you 46:47 just do it for free? 46:49 Why are you charging us? 46:51 So, to me, you can imagine how that would fire up an entire 46:57 generation. 46:59 >>DAVID: The event, probably more than any other single 47:00 event that really catalyzed Luther's desire to nail the 47:04 thesis and to push back on the church was a fellow by the 47:10 name of Johan Teslow came to his area, what you got? 47:12 >>JEFFERY: Who was a Dominican. 47:15 >>DAVID: He was a Dominican, okay. 47:17 And so, he comes to the area and he's raising money for the 47:21 basilica in Rome. 47:24 Now, there's an interesting little story that Carlos Eire 47:25 tells in the book Reformations that I won't go into here in 47:28 too detail, but I will say this, too much detail, there 47:32 was an archbishop, I think his last name was Albrecht. 47:34 Archbishop Albrecht, and he had incurred a significant 47:37 debt because, back in those days, you could purchase 47:39 dieses, you could like, purchase this dieses, and 47:42 purchase, and he went into debt to these people. 47:45 So, he himself had this big debt that he wanted to pay 47:47 off, Rome is trying to do, so what they do is they work this 47:51 little, hey, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, we got 47:53 just the guy to come and raise a bunch of money. 47:55 This guy can preach a fiery sermon. 47:57 So, they bring him in, and so, Albrecht, the archbishop, is 48:01 gonna be, you know, to pay his own personal debt, he's gonna 48:03 be taking some of this money and he'll be sending a lot of 48:06 it on to Rome as well, so, this whole monetization of the 48:10 Christian faith, and when he shows up, he was not allowed 48:14 into Luther's territory for reasons I don't fully 48:16 understand, but Fredrick of Saxon, he did not let him in 48:20 his territory, so he's on the periphery of where Luther's 48:22 at. 48:24 But a lot of Luther's chruch members are going out, they're 48:27 putting their coin, you know, what was the thing that he 48:29 said, you know, the... 48:30 >>JAMES: When the coin drops... 48:32 >>DAVID: The soul flings. 48:33 When it rings or something like that. 48:36 The soul springs. 48:37 >>TY: The coin clings, the soul springs. 48:39 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's it. 48:41 So, he's preaching his little sermon and Luther's coming 48:42 back with these notes for plenary indulgence, which was 48:45 like an indulgence on steroids, like you kinda do 48:48 what you wanna do, and Luther says, those are meaningless, 48:52 and his members are like, what? 48:55 No, I just purchased. 48:56 It means nothing. 48:57 So, he's pushing back, and Teslow's, like, what, you've 49:01 got this monk over there, so this, it escalates, did you 49:04 like that? 49:05 And that was an even that catalyzed Luther saying, okay, 49:09 alright, get me a piece of paper, we're gonna... 49:11 >>JEFFERY: Can I read number 36? 49:13 Can I read thesis 36? 49:15 Just to commentary on what you said, he says basically that 49:16 every, quote, every truly repentant Christian has a 49:23 right to full remission of penalty and guilt. 49:26 Even without letters of pardon. 49:29 Again, it's so, that's a simple statement, but that 49:33 statement is basically sticking it to the great 49:36 powers of the time. 49:37 >>TY: But in sticking it to eh powers that be, there's 49:40 another interesting, very humble approach that he's 49:44 taking, and you know, he wasn't very humble afterwards, 49:47 but at this point, he's actually, a number of times, 49:50 speaking for the pope. 49:51 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, he's saying, I'm trying to protect you. 49:53 >>TY: I'm trying to help the pope out here, now, I want you 49:55 all to know that the pope is a great guy and he wouldn't want 49:58 this, he wouldn't want this. 50:00 So, I'm telling you how it is on behalf of the pope because 50:03 I'm a religious leader, I'm a monk, I'm Dr. Martin Luther 50:06 and I know how this all works. 50:08 So, he's assuming the best. 50:10 >>DAVID: So, when this gets back to Pope Leo the Tenth, 50:16 again, these are pre-internet days, so it takes a little 50:18 time. 50:20 When Pope Leo the Tenth first hears about this, he regards 50:23 it, I think the exact quote is, as some monkish squabble. 50:27 >>TY: He wants to ignore it. 50:29 >>DAVID: He's just like, ah, whatever, it's not a thing. 50:30 But here's the thing, this guy named Gutenberg, just invented 50:33 the internet of the medieval period, and all of a sudden is 50:39 because, you said something that was so true, Ty, what 50:43 Luther was doing was, he was tapping into and giving voice 50:48 to this simmering consciousness of nationalism, 50:51 of oppression, of rising literacy and emergence of a 50:54 middle class, and they're like, yeah, that's right, and 50:57 the thing is just, before, when Pope Leo the Tenth 51:01 realizes what's going on, Luther's a celebrity. 51:05 In fact, I think I said recently that Luther was, 51:07 maybe, he was arguably the first ever celebrity in the 51:11 world. 51:11 He had rock star status. 51:13 People from different towns knowing who this guy is. 51:16 >>TY: Gutenberg's press was not just producing the 95 51:17 thesis, it was producing full on posters of Luther himself 51:24 that were being pinned on walls all over the place. 51:28 I mean, this was going viral. 51:31 You mentioned a moment ago that a number of events had to 51:35 line up, well, one of them was just a communication tool and 51:39 that was the printing press. 51:40 >>DAVID: Which, I was actually just recently in Strasbourg, 51:43 France, and that's where Gutenberg did a lot of his 51:46 work on the moveable type printing press. 51:48 That sort of 1430s, 1440s, 1450s, Luther comes along 51:53 1517, like, if you don't have this, you don't have Luther. 51:57 I've said it this way, that in order for the church to be 52:00 reformed, you need 4 essential ingredients. 52:03 You needed a message, which we're gonna get to, solace 52:05 scriptura. 52:06 You need a mess, and the church was a mess. 52:09 It was a mess on many levels. 52:11 You need a man, you got that now with Luther, and you need 52:15 a means, and that's the printing press. 52:18 If all four of those things do not line up, you do not get 52:21 the Protestant reformation. 52:23 Now, there were people, we should say, even before 52:25 Luther, there were people that were beginning to raise some 52:29 of these concerns. 52:30 >>TY: Significantly. 52:31 >>DAVID: Yeah, John Hass, and prior to him, John Wycliffe. 52:33 So, there were people that were raising, but Luther, he 52:39 galvanized, he captured the spirit of the age, and he put 52:43 it into words and then Gutenberg spread it and you're 52:46 off to the races. 52:48 This is not just a monkish squabble. 52:51 This is the incremental deconstruction of the medieval 52:54 church. 52:55 >>JEFFERY: Somebody pointed out that the difference 52:57 between Luther and the former, Wycliffe and so forth, is that 53:01 Wycliffe and some of the early reformers, they were calling 53:05 out to the abuses of what the church was doing, but Luther, 53:10 from there and shortly after, begins to challenge 53:12 theologically. 53:14 >>DAVID: Okay. 53:16 >>JEFFERY: And that's a huge difference, right? 53:18 The abuse of power versus it's theologically messed up. 53:21 >>DAVID: It's not just an instance. 53:24 >>JEFFERY: So, I think that later on, as he starts 53:26 writing, I think that's where he separates himself in a 53:30 sense. 53:31 >>DAVID: And he writes a bunch of, Jeffrey, when is it that 53:33 he writes those three, that's not until Warburg? 53:36 When does he write those like three pamphlets, the 53:38 letters... 53:39 >>JEFFERY: 1520. 53:41 >>JAMES: Another thing, too, is Luther is speaking from an 53:46 experience. 53:47 So, he's not just talking about theology. 53:49 He's not sitting, like, sometimes, we can sit here and 53:51 we can do the research and get the history together and say, 53:53 you know, really, that doesn't work for me because that 53:55 really looks like, that makes God look a lot better. 53:58 But Luther's speaking from his experience. 54:00 He's gone through years and years of this oppression, this 54:04 spiritual oppression, this guilt, yeah, he has gone up 54:07 and down staircases, and laying on cold floors, and he 54:12 has struggled and wrestled with this. 54:13 He's ready to die. 54:15 And so, finally, when this light dawns on him, he is not 54:18 gonna bite, he is not gonna give this up for anything. 54:20 He's holding onto this for all he's got, and he's thinking, 54:24 obviously, he's a conscientious person, like Ty 54:26 said, he was thinking about even the pope and apologetics 54:28 to the pope, he's thinking about other people, whoever 54:32 they are, he just wants to defend them, protect them, he 54:34 wants them to experience what he's experiencing. 54:37 >>DAVID: That you for pointing that out, this was not 54:39 academic for Luther. 54:41 There were academics involved, but this is his experience. 54:44 This is a liberation of his soul from, I love the way you 54:48 said it earlier, a dark, foreboding picture of God into 54:50 the light of the gospel. 54:52 Now, Luther's not there yet, as we'll continue to see in 54:54 this series, he's not there yet, but you can't have a 17th 54:58 step or a 27th step or a 103rd step until you have a first 55:02 step. 55:03 >>JAMES: He was just showing us how dark it was. 55:04 >>DAVID: It was dark. 55:05 >>JEFFERY: I don't know how much time we have, but I just 55:06 wanted to make... 55:07 >>TY: One minute. 55:08 Go, go. 55:09 >>JEFFERY: That Luther, when he was protesting against the 55:13 indulgences, it wasn't an expression, it wasn't doing 55:16 away with Christians living their life, in other words, he 55:20 was worried that the indulgences were replacing 55:23 true good works. 55:25 That's what he was worried about. 55:28 >>TY: Yeah, 'cause if you could purchase an indulgence 55:30 that would get you time off in purgatory, certainly you could 55:34 purchase a super indulgence that would pay for future sins 55:37 you plan to commit. 55:39 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, so I just think that's an important 55:41 point. 55:42 He was worried that this would take away from true good 55:43 works, and that was a motivation as well. 55:47 He's not altogether theologic. 55:49 He's not thinking, oh, righteousness by faith, he's 55:51 thinking, wait a second, they're presenting this slip 55:53 and true Christian charity is not blossoming in their lives. 56:00 There's something wrong here. 56:02 >>TY: So, Luther, at this point in history is stepping 56:05 forward with a tremendous amount of courage to say some 56:09 things that vitally need to be said, and he's got the guts to 56:14 say what needs to be said. 56:16 [Music] 56:28 蛂usic] |
Revised 2018-01-17