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>>TY: Man, we've covered a
lot of territory so far in our
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first three sessions and we've
basically spent a lot of time
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laying groundwork.
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We haven't actually
gotten into the Protestant
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reformation as of yet, but
we're gonna begin creeping in
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that direction right now.
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But, David, when we were
talking during the break, we
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were pointing out that
we can't just jump from the
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prophecies of Paul and of
Daniel about the great falling
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away that was going to occur,
and just leap all the way to
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Luther.
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>>DAVID: Yeah,
that's a big jump.
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>>TY: Yeah, that's a lot
of centuries that have passed.
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So, help us walk through the
developmental process by which
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we get the falling away
because it didn't happen
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overnight.
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>>JEFFERY: We need about 1,000
years of history in about 30
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seconds.
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>>DAVID: Thirty seconds?
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So, okay, so here's what
I would say right out of the
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gate, and I wanna
hear from you guys as well.
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What you end up with
coming out of post-Contantinian
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Christianity, after the
time of Constantine, all the way
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through what's called the
medieval period or the dark
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ages until we get to
the Protestant reformation.
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There are, I would say, there
are a number of factors, but I
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would say the three primary
factors that are influencing
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that period of history
would be, number one, the
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relationship of the
church to this day, which we've
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described, right?
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Because you have Constantine
as now the head of the church
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at some level, but also
he's the head of the state,
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imperial Rome.
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And that sort of what
imbibed, that idea of the
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interconnectedness of church
and state, that just goes on,
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that's the cold that
Christianity has caught and
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still has, number one.
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Number one is the relationship
with the church and the state.
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Number two is what we might
call the de-Judaization of the
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Christian faith.
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The de-Judaization is
just what it sounds like.
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The un-Jewishing of
the Christian faith.
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>>JEFFERY: Or the Greekizing.
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>>DAVID: Well, that's
the number third thing.
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So, it's not just the absence
of something, the taking away
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of the Jewishness, it's
the addition of Helenization.
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So, number one, church-state,
number two, de-Judaization,
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number three, Helenization.
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So, as you say, the lessening
of the Jewish influence and
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Hebrew thought that we started
with and then the increase,
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the turning up the volume
on the Greeking of the faith.
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And this is able to be
illustrated in a number of
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ways, and Jeffrey, you might
know more about this than I
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do, but in the early Christian
influencers in the period 2nd,
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3rd, 4th, 5th century,
basically none of these guys
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were Jews.
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They were not Hebrews.
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Many of them didn't
speak, read, or write Hebrew.
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They were Greeks.
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Right?
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Greek influence, and so,
I read this great quotation
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years ago from
Jaroslav Pelikan and his, the
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development of
Christian doctrine.
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Five volume set.
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In the first volume, he says,
look, this is the way to think
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about it.
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The Jews, the apostolic
church, they thought of
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Judaism, we're talking about
the believers in Christ, they
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thought about the
Judaism as their mother, right?
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This is the breast at
which they nursed, this is how
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they've received
the life that they have.
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But in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th,
5th centuries and beyond, the
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early church fathers thought
of Judaism as their mother in
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law.
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Right?
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There's a difference.
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Because there wasn't that
connection, that familial,
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social, cultural
connection with Judaism.
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And so, a number of things
are gonna start appearing on the
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sort of theological landscape
of the Christian faith, and a
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number of things are
gonna start disappearing.
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>>JEFFERY: But I think there's
a few things on that, a few
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quick things is the
why behind that, alright?
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So, the apostolic church,
evangelism, right, the message
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spreads throughout Europe and
we have an influx of Gentiles,
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right?
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We have an influx of
non-Hebrew people joining the
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church and as that takes
place, the final generation of
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the apostles passes away, dies.
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The last of the apostles,
and then, slowly, we find a
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situation where the majority
of the leadership is now
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non-Jewish, and then, you
have a situation where under the
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Roman empire, now, Rome
begins to identify the Jews as a
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problem and begins to
persecute the Jews and now,
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you have these Gentile
believers inside the same
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church with these Jewish
believers, but they begin to
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wanna distance, yeah, from the
Jews in order to not be lumped
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together with this problematic
community that Caesar is after
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and so, as they're
incentivized to separate, that
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just adds a thicker line
between their Hebrew ancestry.
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>>DAVID: Yes, and not just
socially, not just culturally
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there was a separation, for
our purposes here, there was a
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theological separation.
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So, that's what we mean by the
de-Judaization, you're losing
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the Jewish influence, and with
that, you're gonna lose a lot
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of points of
theological contact.
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Sanctuary, Sabbath,
anthropological monism, the
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idea that when you
die, you sleep and awake the
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resurrection.
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But on the scene is gonna
come a whole bunch of new ideas.
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So, what we have are
these sort of simultaneous, this
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vortex of very interesting
factors that are gonna create,
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cumulatively, a church by
the time we get into Luther's
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time, even before that, when
we get into the middle of the
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medieval period, it is
virtually unrecognizable.
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>>JEFFERY: We should
also mention that during the
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Constantine period that
we've been talking about, now we
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have a political incentive
from an emperor now to make
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Christianity palatable to a
broader audience, so now you
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have a politician who
needs stability throughout the
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empire and everybody knows
that the stabilizer is to get
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everybody on the same
page, and in order to now
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accommodate all of these
different pagans that have
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come into the church, now
we have the introduction of all
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these different,
you were saying...
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>>TY: So, times haven't
changed at all, people are
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inclined to use
popular religious movements for
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political ends, just like
we see taking place in our
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political world today and
for all of our whole lifetimes,
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it's always advantageous
for an American presidential
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candidate, going back
through all of American history,
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pretty much, to identify with
the huge voting block that is
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Christianity.
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So, Constantine is just doing
the same thing, at his time.
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He's seeing all of these
people and Christianity is
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taking over the empire, so,
he identifies with the thing
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that's overtaking and then, he
himself redefines the thing by
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infusing into it principles
that are foreign to it.
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>>DAVID: That's exactly
right, and there are a number of
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factors that are swirling
together here, one of which is
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the Constantine reality,
the other is the de-Judaization,
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now, we have the
Greeking of the faith.
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And here's another big
one, prior to Constantine, there
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were some fairly significant
persecutions, historically, of
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the Christian church, and when
those people were persecuted,
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this created almost a
strengthening or a resolve the
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in the church.
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Where, in the
post-Constantinian world,
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you're now like, okay, well,
who are the new heroes of the
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faith?
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Who are the martyrs, who are
those that are willing to lay
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down their lives?
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And in subsequent centuries,
you actually have the rise or
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the birth of what would
come to be known as monasticism.
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People that would take
very specific and self-limiting
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vows, aesthetic vows,
things like I will not have sex,
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celibacy, I will take a
vow of poverty, in some extreme
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cases, I will take a vow of
silence, I will take a vow of
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obedience to the
rule of the order.
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So, what you have now are
these sort of newly emerging
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ways to be super Christian,
because nobody's being burned
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at the stake.
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>>TY: That are super
Greek and not Hebrew at all.
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>>DAVID: Yeah,
that's exactly right.
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>>TY: Because the Hebrew way
of processing God and theology
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and life is very social, very
much grounded in fellowship,
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God is a fellowshipping
God, and for Hebrew ways of
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thinking, food is a part of
the sacred, daily interaction
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with God's creation.
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In the Jewish way of thinking,
the creation itself, including
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the human body and its
sexuality isn't evil in and of
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itself.
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It can be misused, but it's
actually to be celebrated, and
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so, you start having this
movement take place away from
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biblical Christianity and a
holistic view of the world and
00:09:04.34\00:09:08.11
mankind.
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>>JEFFERY: And also, what I
do to my, what I do to my person
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as an expression
of my vow to God.
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Like we were saying, you know,
depreciating your body, right?
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That would later
lead to other things.
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Yeah.
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The physical is a shell,
what matters is the spiritual
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inside.
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>>TY: The body's bad, the
soul is good, and at least for
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Plato, the soul existed in
some form prior to its present
00:09:35.77\00:09:41.51
inhabiting of a physical body.
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>>JEFFERY: And the
goal is to shed the shell.
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>>TY: The goal is to shed it
and get back, and that's why,
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according to Plato, that's why
we have notions of virtue and
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justice and beauty.
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According to him, we have
these faint memories of being
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a part of something prior
to inhabiting this body and the
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goal has gotta be to bring
the body into subjection, to
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separate from the physical
part of creation in order to
00:10:07.87\00:10:12.41
be holy, in order to ascend.
00:10:12.41\00:10:14.24
>>DAVID: So, if you take
celibacy as a case in point,
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celibacy emerges, the
idea of celibacy comes into the
00:10:16.88\00:10:23.05
Christian world, both
for Christian reasons, not
00:10:23.05\00:10:27.89
actually Christian reasons,
but theological reasons.
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Hey, I will show God my
devotion, but also for Greek
00:10:30.46\00:10:34.83
reasons.
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Right?
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A distancing form the
body, a distancing from bodily
00:10:36.90\00:10:38.67
pleasures, and so, what you
have now, even today, in many
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cultures, sort of,
cultures is the wrong word.
00:10:43.44\00:10:46.51
In many church situations,
celibacy or virginity is
00:10:46.51\00:10:51.18
celebrated.
00:10:51.18\00:10:52.51
Now, just a point on that.
00:10:52.51\00:10:54.38
The reason that celibacy and
virginity are celebrated, and
00:10:54.38\00:10:57.52
they'll trace that back
to like the Virgin Mary.
00:10:57.52\00:10:59.69
This is key,
biblically speaking.
00:10:59.69\00:11:02.99
It's not because celibacy was
virtuous, and it's not because
00:11:02.99\00:11:06.36
virginity was virtuous in
and of itself, it's because you
00:11:06.36\00:11:08.96
were waiting to be with the one.
00:11:08.96\00:11:12.97
You follow?
00:11:12.97\00:11:14.07
>>JEFFERY: You're saying
this is the original reason.
00:11:14.07\00:11:15.87
>>DAVID: I'm
saying this is textual.
00:11:15.87\00:11:17.64
So, that virginal
characteristic is beautiful,
00:11:17.64\00:11:20.01
it's virtuous, it's wonderful,
because you are saving
00:11:20.01\00:11:23.18
yourself for the
one with whom you are...
00:11:23.18\00:11:26.72
>>JEFFERY: It's
participatory, yeah.
00:11:26.72\00:11:28.72
>>DAVID: But as a
number of instancing, fasting,
00:11:28.72\00:11:31.22
obedience, poverty, all of
these things that in and of
00:11:31.22\00:11:33.69
themselves, situationally
could be virtuous, became ends
00:11:33.69\00:11:37.29
in themselves.
00:11:37.29\00:11:38.39
Means by which a sort of...
00:11:38.39\00:11:40.73
>>TY: Merit is gained.
00:11:40.73\00:11:41.90
>>DAVID: Merit is gained and
a super Christian is emerging,
00:11:41.90\00:11:45.10
because you don't
have martyrs anymore.
00:11:45.10\00:11:47.14
So, you have this whole,
you know, down through the ages,
00:11:47.14\00:11:49.84
incrementally, it's impossible
to talk about the emergence of
00:11:49.84\00:11:53.51
medieval
Christianity in a fell swoop.
00:11:53.51\00:11:56.61
It's taking place very slowly,
incrementally, on at least two
00:11:56.61\00:12:00.95
tracks, you have
the theological track.
00:12:00.95\00:12:02.95
>>TY: It would've happened
faster if they had had the
00:12:02.95\00:12:04.95
internet.
00:12:04.95\00:12:06.52
It had to take place very
slowly because they were all
00:12:06.52\00:12:10.16
separated by space and yeah.
00:12:10.16\00:12:12.19
>>DAVID: Fair enough, so you
have the theological track and
00:12:12.19\00:12:14.96
you have these
incremental departures.
00:12:14.96\00:12:17.07
You wrote some of those
down, Ty, these incremental
00:12:17.07\00:12:19.13
departures.
00:12:19.13\00:12:20.14
But then you also
have the political track.
00:12:20.14\00:12:22.77
So, on these two
tracks, the church, to take my
00:12:22.77\00:12:26.14
illustration to its conclusion
here, went off the rails.
00:12:26.14\00:12:29.71
Right?
00:12:29.71\00:12:30.91
So, incremental, in the same
way that you become obese, it
00:12:30.91\00:12:32.81
doesn't happen, you don't just
wake up one day and say, man,
00:12:32.81\00:12:35.02
you know, I'm 50
pounds overweight.
00:12:35.02\00:12:37.19
That happened a pound at a time.
00:12:37.19\00:12:40.42
So, by the time we get down to
Luther, and Luther's got, he's
00:12:40.42\00:12:43.56
gonna look at the text of
scripture, he's gonna look at
00:12:43.56\00:12:45.56
the church, he's gonna...
00:12:45.56\00:12:47.36
>>TY: Yeah, where
did all this come from?
00:12:47.36\00:12:49.53
>>DAVID: It happened
incrementally over centuries
00:12:49.53\00:12:52.93
and centuries.
00:12:52.93\00:12:53.94
>>TY: Where did it come from?
00:12:53.94\00:12:55.30
Where did it come from?
00:12:55.30\00:12:56.47
>>DAVID: And to trace, you
know, many of the things that
00:12:56.47\00:12:58.41
we end up with
through medieval Christianity
00:12:58.41\00:13:00.84
we've just mentioned
celibacy and a few other
00:13:00.84\00:13:03.08
things, you would have to
go back and look whether you're
00:13:03.08\00:13:04.81
talking about, you know,
prayers to Mary, or you know,
00:13:04.81\00:13:07.45
the idea of the Eucharist
or you can trace all of those
00:13:07.45\00:13:10.95
back to specific events
and situations in history that
00:13:10.95\00:13:14.86
gave birth to kind of
what is called legendary
00:13:14.86\00:13:17.63
embellishment.
00:13:17.63\00:13:18.86
It just got a little more and
then a little more and then a
00:13:18.86\00:13:20.93
little more, until eventually,
you kind of hit the bottom of
00:13:20.93\00:13:26.13
church history here and what
you have that's Christianity
00:13:26.13\00:13:30.44
bears virtually no resemblance
to the church that Jesus
00:13:30.44\00:13:33.71
established.
00:13:33.71\00:13:34.88
And then, there's this call,
you know, Luther's call for
00:13:34.88\00:13:39.18
reformation.
00:13:39.18\00:13:40.38
>>TY: Not only the point
that you're making, but a lot of
00:13:40.38\00:13:43.95
these embellishments
become tools of control and also
00:13:43.95\00:13:51.69
monetary gain for those
who are in charge and so, it's
00:13:51.69\00:13:54.93
advantageous to have a
religious system for those who
00:13:54.93\00:13:58.23
are leading the religious
system in which they prescribe
00:13:58.23\00:14:02.10
and people subscribe to
what they're prescribing and
00:14:02.10\00:14:07.24
there's an exchange of money
involved and there is prestige
00:14:07.24\00:14:11.55
because those who are
engaged in the super spiritual
00:14:11.55\00:14:15.85
activities occupy a position
in people's imaginations in
00:14:15.85\00:14:21.26
their minds.
00:14:21.26\00:14:22.42
>>DAVID: Hey, that's
what Christianity looks like,
00:14:22.42\00:14:23.79
that's super spiritual.
00:14:23.79\00:14:24.96
>>TY: I need to
ascend to that, too.
00:14:24.96\00:14:26.23
I mean, I'm not.
00:14:26.23\00:14:27.86
They're low, I'm high, I'm
low, they're high, but I could
00:14:27.86\00:14:32.07
occasionally engage in these
disciplines, or I could pay
00:14:32.07\00:14:36.24
hard cold cash in order to
be a part of the super spiritual
00:14:36.24\00:14:42.58
elite.
00:14:42.58\00:14:44.35
So, all of this is developing
over a long period of time
00:14:44.35\00:14:49.62
because the principle
of self-exaltation or the
00:14:49.62\00:14:55.42
principle of preeminence that
James called our attention to
00:14:55.42\00:14:58.33
in 3 John is gradually
just taking hold, taking hold,
00:14:58.33\00:15:03.06
taking hold.
00:15:03.06\00:15:04.27
And the picture of God that
is communicated through the law
00:15:04.27\00:15:07.27
and the prophets of a
covenantal God of self-giving,
00:15:07.27\00:15:10.87
self-sacrificing love is
giving way to a picture of God
00:15:10.87\00:15:15.84
or theology in which God
now is occupying the position of
00:15:15.84\00:15:20.08
requiring, exacting, demanding.
00:15:20.08\00:15:23.62
>>DAVID: It's duty,
responsibility, have to, must,
00:15:23.62\00:15:27.62
not get to, joy, delight.
00:15:27.62\00:15:29.82
In 1 Timothy chapter 4,
that's a case in point, another
00:15:29.82\00:15:34.66
passage that speaks about
the coming apostasy, it actually
00:15:34.66\00:15:38.53
says now, the spirit, 1
Timothy chapter 4, verse 1,
00:15:38.53\00:15:40.74
now the spirit expressly says
that in the latter times, some
00:15:40.74\00:15:44.54
will depart from the
faith, giving heed to deceiving
00:15:44.54\00:15:46.54
spirits and doctrines of demons.
00:15:46.54\00:15:48.94
>>TY: That's heavy.
00:15:48.94\00:15:50.15
>>DAVID: Doctrines that are
at odds with the faith that had
00:15:50.15\00:15:53.35
been committed to the apostles
and prophets, and then, it's
00:15:53.35\00:15:55.88
fascinating, verse 2, speaking
lies and hypocrisy, having
00:15:55.88\00:15:59.29
their own conscience seared
with a hot iron, and the first
00:15:59.29\00:16:01.56
thing that's mentioned there
in the list is forbidding to
00:16:01.56\00:16:05.26
marry.
00:16:05.26\00:16:06.80
Forbidding to marry.
00:16:06.80\00:16:08.06
Now, when you go back to
Genesis 1 and 2, and God says
00:16:08.06\00:16:11.50
it was good, man, that
was good, it was good, it was
00:16:11.50\00:16:13.67
good, it was good, it was
good, it was good, the only
00:16:13.67\00:16:15.67
thing in Genesis 1 and 2 that
the God of scripture says was
00:16:15.67\00:16:18.61
not good was that man should
be alone because there's this
00:16:18.61\00:16:23.08
sexual, social...
00:16:23.08\00:16:24.31
>>TY: Which, he did translate,
the only thing that's not good
00:16:24.31\00:16:26.38
is celibacy.
00:16:26.38\00:16:27.48
>>DAVID: Yeah, and now,
we have, think of that total
00:16:27.48\00:16:30.79
reversal of fortune.
00:16:30.79\00:16:32.25
Now, we have in, you know,
in the monastic period in this
00:16:32.25\00:16:35.96
sort of, heading into the
medieval period, celibacy is
00:16:35.96\00:16:39.59
regarded as, oh,
that's a pinnacle of Christian
00:16:39.59\00:16:43.30
devotion, look at that.
00:16:43.30\00:16:45.00
And God's like, no, I
didn't ask you to do that.
00:16:45.00\00:16:48.20
That's not on the...
00:16:48.20\00:16:50.07
>>JAMES: Didn't even hint at it.
00:16:50.07\00:16:52.74
I mean, Paul
might a little bit, but.
00:16:52.74\00:16:54.74
>>DAVID: Right,
like Jesus himself.
00:16:54.74\00:16:56.75
>>JAMES: He's the
same one that said this.
00:16:56.75\00:16:58.75
>>DAVID: And Jesus said,
look, there are some that are
00:16:58.75\00:17:00.75
eunuchs for various reasons,
but on the whole, clearly, the
00:17:00.75\00:17:04.89
ideal plan of God is a man
with a woman, coming together
00:17:04.89\00:17:08.09
in selfless love and mutuality
and connectivity, that's the
00:17:08.09\00:17:10.99
plan.
00:17:10.99\00:17:11.99
But now we have
a reversal of that.
00:17:11.99\00:17:14.00
>>JEFFERY: It's interesting
what you just said because the
00:17:14.00\00:17:16.90
monastic movement would invoke
passages like 1 Corinthians 7
00:17:16.90\00:17:20.20
to Paul to be celibate.
00:17:20.20\00:17:23.41
>>DAVID: That's cherry picking.
00:17:23.41\00:17:24.61
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, because here
you have Paul saying, that's
00:17:24.61\00:17:27.78
not a thing.
00:17:27.78\00:17:29.24
not a thing.
00:17:29.24\00:17:30.31
That's not a normative, no, no.
00:17:31.08\00:17:34.38
>>JAMES: Specially if you
get on in time, it's gonna be
00:17:34.38\00:17:35.98
dangerous.
00:17:35.98\00:17:36.99
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, so
that's really interesting.
00:17:36.99\00:17:38.35
>>JAMES: Well, I think,
here's the key point, here.
00:17:38.35\00:17:39.85
This is a doctrine now.
00:17:39.85\00:17:42.89
What Jesus is talking
about, it's not a doctrine when
00:17:42.89\00:17:44.59
Jesus, well,
there's some people.
00:17:44.59\00:17:45.89
Yeah, but this is a doctrine.
00:17:45.89\00:17:49.46
They're forbidding.
00:17:49.46\00:17:51.23
>>DAVID: That's different.
00:17:51.23\00:17:52.67
If somebody opts out,
like, I've got a good friend who
00:17:52.67\00:17:54.37
just said, you know, I just
gave my life to mission work
00:17:54.37\00:17:56.77
in Nepal.
00:17:56.77\00:17:57.97
There's this amazing woman,
her name is Helen, she's given
00:17:57.97\00:17:59.84
her entire work to mission
work in Nepal, 37 years, and
00:17:59.84\00:18:03.41
she said, I just never had time.
00:18:03.41\00:18:05.48
She's, the stories, she was
just in our church recently,
00:18:05.48\00:18:07.18
the stories that this woman
is telling, like, the life she
00:18:07.18\00:18:10.49
has lived, you just throw
your hands up and say, thank you
00:18:10.49\00:18:13.39
Jesus, and you ask her,
she says, look, that was never
00:18:13.39\00:18:15.19
really an option for the
life that God carved out for me.
00:18:15.19\00:18:18.76
But it wasn't somebody
saying to her, you can't.
00:18:18.76\00:18:21.10
It was a choice she made.
00:18:21.10\00:18:22.56
>>TY: Yeah.
00:18:22.56\00:18:23.73
Well, let's take a break
on that note and come back and
00:18:23.73\00:18:26.07
maybe talk about some of
the other layers of ideas and
00:18:26.07\00:18:33.88
practices that got brought
in to build into this monolithic
00:18:33.88\00:18:39.68
power that Luther stood up to.
00:18:39.68\00:18:42.88
[Music]
00:18:42.88\00:18:53.90
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00:18:53.90\00:18:55.73
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00:18:55.73\00:19:00.44
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00:19:00.44\00:19:02.37
It's easy to get bogged
down in all the genealogies,
00:19:02.37\00:19:05.67
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00:19:05.67\00:19:08.61
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00:19:08.61\00:19:10.85
And yet, the bible is full
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[Music]
00:20:37.33\00:20:43.74
>>TY: So, essentially
what we're saying is that the
00:20:43.74\00:20:45.31
papacy didn't
manifest overnight.
00:20:45.31\00:20:47.74
This thing was built over
centuries of compromise, the
00:20:47.74\00:20:52.81
de-Judaizing of Christianity,
the Helenization of
00:20:52.81\00:20:57.72
Christianity, and all
kinds of things began to come up
00:20:57.72\00:21:01.99
missing gradually and
other things put into place.
00:21:01.99\00:21:05.56
So, here's a basic outline,
see what you guys think of
00:21:05.56\00:21:08.13
this, of some of the
times where certain things were
00:21:08.13\00:21:12.70
introduced into the picture.
00:21:12.70\00:21:14.14
Around 600, Latin prayer
in worship was introduced.
00:21:14.14\00:21:19.27
Now, why Latin prayer?
00:21:19.27\00:21:21.71
Why not the language of
the people that are listening?
00:21:21.71\00:21:24.31
But this sounded
more holy, more elevated.
00:21:24.31\00:21:29.82
Why would the
common people understand?
00:21:29.82\00:21:31.82
This, again, is a
mechanism of control.
00:21:31.82\00:21:34.26
There are few people who
understand, there are a bunch
00:21:34.26\00:21:36.36
of people who do not.
00:21:36.36\00:21:37.53
Also, in 600, we have the
development of prayer to Mary
00:21:37.53\00:21:41.16
and to the saints
and to the angels.
00:21:41.16\00:21:43.37
We have that
nowhere in scripture.
00:21:43.37\00:21:45.50
>>DAVID: Just a quick pause on
that, I'll give the one minute
00:21:45.50\00:21:47.04
version of how
some of that came about.
00:21:47.04\00:21:49.04
Prior to the conversion
of Constantine, there were a
00:21:49.04\00:21:52.91
series of very significant
persecutions, and in these
00:21:52.91\00:21:57.31
persecutions, there were
some of the Christian believers
00:21:57.31\00:21:59.81
that gave up their faith.
00:21:59.81\00:22:01.25
You know, they're being
tortured, they're having the
00:22:01.25\00:22:02.82
bottoms of their feet
being burned with hot irons or
00:22:02.82\00:22:04.62
they're being, you know,
stretched, and they say, okay,
00:22:04.62\00:22:07.06
okay, I give up my faith.
00:22:07.06\00:22:08.99
And so, these people were
then released, but they were
00:22:08.99\00:22:10.89
regarded by some in the
Christian church as what were
00:22:10.89\00:22:13.26
called lapsed.
00:22:13.26\00:22:14.66
That was the
term, they were lapsed.
00:22:14.66\00:22:16.36
They denied Christ,
they denied the faith.
00:22:16.36\00:22:18.10
There were some, though,
even under the duress of torture
00:22:18.10\00:22:21.37
and pain that did not
lapse and they were called
00:22:21.37\00:22:25.41
confessors.
00:22:25.41\00:22:27.48
So, when the persecutions
finally died out, there was a
00:22:27.48\00:22:30.48
debate and controversy about,
like, hey, what do we do with
00:22:30.48\00:22:33.72
these lapsed people?
00:22:33.72\00:22:35.08
Do we just let
them back into church?
00:22:35.08\00:22:36.12
After all, they denied
God and they denied Jesus.
00:22:36.12\00:22:37.99
And there was a movement
that said, we can't let these
00:22:37.99\00:22:39.95
people back into church,
and that was called novationism,
00:22:39.95\00:22:42.66
the pure.
00:22:42.66\00:22:43.43
Keep these people out.
00:22:43.43\00:22:44.29
The church is just for the pure.
00:22:44.29\00:22:45.76
And fascinatingly, the way
that they got around that, how
00:22:45.76\00:22:49.73
do we let these people
back in, is they said that those
00:22:49.73\00:22:52.57
that were the confessors that
did not deny their faith, they
00:22:52.57\00:22:55.10
must have had a
surplus of grace.
00:22:55.10\00:22:58.61
They must've had a reservoir
that was not exhausted, they
00:22:58.61\00:23:00.81
must have had extra, so we'll
take some of that extra and
00:23:00.81\00:23:04.08
apply it to the lapsed.
00:23:04.08\00:23:06.21
And then, it was the bishops
or the clerics that decided
00:23:06.21\00:23:08.55
who received this
reservoir of merit.
00:23:08.55\00:23:12.42
So, this idea...
00:23:12.42\00:23:13.52
>>TY: You can see the
beginnings of purgatory.
00:23:13.52\00:23:15.42
>>DAVID: You got it.
00:23:15.42\00:23:16.39
All of these things
that became doctrines have a
00:23:16.39\00:23:18.16
historical mooring.
00:23:18.16\00:23:20.10
>>JAMES: Matthew 25
wouldn't have allowed that.
00:23:20.10\00:23:21.93
the ten virgins?
00:23:21.93\00:23:23.47
>>DAVID: You lost me there.
00:23:23.47\00:23:24.47
>>JAMES: Give us of your oil.
00:23:24.47\00:23:25.53
We can't, you gotta go.
00:23:25.53\00:23:26.57
>>DAVID: Yeah, exactly,
you can't transfer that.
00:23:26.57\00:23:28.84
Yeah, gotcha.
00:23:28.84\00:23:30.04
It's not like they just sat
around a table like we are and
00:23:30.04\00:23:32.01
said, hey, let's come
up with some kooky stuff.
00:23:32.01\00:23:34.28
No, these were historical
realities that created
00:23:34.28\00:23:38.21
something.
00:23:38.21\00:23:39.41
>>JAMES: Church experiences
that led to these development
00:23:39.41\00:23:42.08
of these...
00:23:42.08\00:23:43.05
>>DAVID: Anyway, you
were going down a list.
00:23:43.05\00:23:44.29
>>TY: Around 700, we have the
development of venerating the
00:23:44.29\00:23:50.13
pope in a very strange
way, kissing his feet, again,
00:23:50.13\00:23:53.26
bringing the church member
down and elevating the man
00:23:53.26\00:23:57.87
above.
00:23:57.87\00:23:59.30
Okay, around 786, the
veneration of the cross and
00:23:59.30\00:24:03.07
images and relics is introduced.
00:24:03.07\00:24:06.24
927, the college of
cardinals is developed.
00:24:06.24\00:24:10.88
995, the canonization of
dead individuals as saints, you
00:24:10.88\00:24:17.22
know.
00:24:17.22\00:24:18.42
So, let's now, this person
who died is in a super spiritual
00:24:18.42\00:24:22.82
category.
00:24:22.82\00:24:23.83
>>DAVID: Somebody
to whom you can pray.
00:24:23.83\00:24:25.33
>>TY: And they're
gonna mediate on your behalf.
00:24:25.33\00:24:26.70
Around 1000, mass
becomes mandatory, this isn't
00:24:26.70\00:24:34.24
optional.
00:24:34.24\00:24:35.47
>>DAVID: Hey, what are
we doing on Sunday morning?
00:24:35.47\00:24:37.21
I'll tell you.
00:24:37.21\00:24:38.34
>>TY: I'll tell you exactly
what you're doing, you're
00:24:38.34\00:24:40.71
taking mass.
00:24:40.71\00:24:42.21
1079, celibacy
of the priesthood.
00:24:42.21\00:24:45.11
Now, we've talked about
celibacy being introduced in
00:24:45.11\00:24:47.98
individual cases and in
developing monasticism, but
00:24:47.98\00:24:52.05
now, it's become an order.
00:24:52.05\00:24:55.56
>>DAVID: Forbidding to marry.
00:24:55.56\00:24:56.79
>>TY: Yeah, an actual
system where the super spiritual
00:24:56.79\00:24:59.79
commit themselves to celibacy.
00:24:59.79\00:25:03.33
1090, the rosary and
repetitious prayer introduced.
00:25:03.33\00:25:07.34
1190, the sale of indulgences.
00:25:07.34\00:25:11.77
>>DAVID: This is the
thing that's really gonna be in
00:25:11.77\00:25:12.97
Luther's bonnet, 1190.
00:25:12.97\00:25:15.28
>>TY: Reducing time in
purgatory by the purchasing of
00:25:15.28\00:25:18.41
indulgences, which indicates
that somewhere along the way,
00:25:18.41\00:25:23.49
Christians are beginning to
think in a more Hellenized way
00:25:23.49\00:25:27.12
and a less Jewish way by
believing that when people
00:25:27.12\00:25:31.43
die, that they're somewhere,
in some conscious form,
00:25:31.43\00:25:34.93
because if some of them are in
purgatory, then, you know, you
00:25:34.93\00:25:39.40
can buy indulgences to
get time off for them of their
00:25:39.40\00:25:41.74
suffering, so that's taking
place somewhere along the way,
00:25:41.74\00:25:43.67
and in 1215, transubstantiation.
00:25:43.67\00:25:48.08
>>DAVID: We'll have to
spend time at some point talking
00:25:48.08\00:25:49.48
about that.
00:25:49.48\00:25:50.88
>>TY: Also in 1215, confession
to the priest rather than me
00:25:50.88\00:25:58.15
confessing my sins directly
to God through Christ, now,
00:25:58.15\00:26:02.26
through a human priesthood.
00:26:02.26\00:26:04.99
>>DAVID: That's the sacrament
of reconciliation, one of the
00:26:04.99\00:26:07.50
7 sacraments.
00:26:07.50\00:26:08.76
>>JEFFERY: I'm surprised
it's that late in history.
00:26:08.76\00:26:11.17
>>TY: So, yeah, those are
some of the things that are
00:26:11.17\00:26:13.47
developing along the way, and
indulgences, as you said, you
00:26:13.47\00:26:17.61
know, becomes a bee in the
bonnet of Luther, I mean, at
00:26:17.61\00:26:23.38
first, he's actually
sold out to all of this.
00:26:23.38\00:26:25.88
>>DAVID: Of course.
00:26:25.88\00:26:27.68
>>TY: He's an Augustinian monk.
00:26:27.68\00:26:30.15
So, Luther isn't a
Protestant by any stretch of the
00:26:30.15\00:26:34.06
imagination, until later
on and other individuals are
00:26:34.06\00:26:39.36
categorizing
him as a Protestant.
00:26:39.36\00:26:42.83
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, he had
no desire to even break.
00:26:42.83\00:26:45.53
He was thinking, I'm just
contributing, I'm helping out
00:26:45.53\00:26:49.07
here, I'll bring a few things
up because we need a little
00:26:49.07\00:26:52.14
reform within.
00:26:52.14\00:26:54.01
And of course, it
didn't really go that route.
00:26:54.01\00:26:56.61
>>TY: Yeah, he wanted
reform and it wasn't until the
00:26:56.61\00:27:00.68
protest of the princes
that the word protest was
00:27:00.68\00:27:03.82
introduced, we're actually
protesting some serious,
00:27:03.82\00:27:08.09
serious violations of
scripture, namely, the
00:27:08.09\00:27:10.66
violation of individual
conscience, and the church
00:27:10.66\00:27:13.96
encroaching upon the state
and saying, you know, the church
00:27:13.96\00:27:16.77
is going to dictate to the
state what's going to be, and
00:27:16.77\00:27:19.83
the state, the princes, the
political leaders, pushed back
00:27:19.83\00:27:23.74
on that and
said, no, you're not.
00:27:23.74\00:27:25.37
We're protesting your
power, dictating to us as states
00:27:25.37\00:27:30.28
what's going to be in our
realms and our territories.
00:27:30.28\00:27:33.28
And so, that's where we
get the Protestant reformation.
00:27:33.28\00:27:35.88
Luther is reforming and then
the protest follows Luther and
00:27:35.88\00:27:41.32
he gets on board
with it, for sure.
00:27:41.32\00:27:43.73
He finally comes to the
conclusion that, in fact the
00:27:43.73\00:27:47.13
papacy is the antichrist, you
know, his famous statement, if
00:27:47.13\00:27:50.60
there is a hell,
Rome is built over it.
00:27:50.60\00:27:53.00
He comes to the conclusion
that the papacy is, in fact,
00:27:53.00\00:27:55.74
the man of sin that was
foretold in scripture by the
00:27:55.74\00:28:00.21
apostle Paul.
00:28:00.21\00:28:01.71
>>DAVID: I just recently
read a book, a newly published
00:28:01.71\00:28:04.28
book, 2016, by a Catholic
historian, Catholic historian
00:28:04.28\00:28:08.35
at Yale, Carlos Eire.
00:28:08.35\00:28:10.05
The book is titled
Reformations, I think it's
00:28:10.05\00:28:12.42
1450-1650.
00:28:12.42\00:28:14.16
And in that period, he
makes a fascinating parallel.
00:28:14.16\00:28:17.43
He says that, when Luther
first went to Rome, I believe
00:28:17.43\00:28:21.40
that was in 1517,
no, that was in 1510.
00:28:21.40\00:28:24.77
When Luther goes to Rome in
1510 on a pilgrimage, it's at
00:28:24.77\00:28:29.67
this time that Pope Julius the
Second is saying, hey, we need
00:28:29.67\00:28:32.87
to build a bigger building,
Saint Peter's basilica.
00:28:32.87\00:28:36.41
And that's gonna cost a
huge amount of money, it's gonna
00:28:36.41\00:28:38.48
take a long time to do.
00:28:38.48\00:28:40.22
That will become the thing,
that enterprise of building
00:28:40.22\00:28:43.02
this large building is
gonna create a need for massive
00:28:43.02\00:28:45.59
amounts of money to come in to
support this building project.
00:28:45.59\00:28:48.02
And so, he makes this point,
Carlos Eire does that in, he
00:28:48.02\00:28:53.43
had no idea, right, it's just
like one of those things where
00:28:53.43\00:28:55.76
you know, here comes Luther
and the decisions being made
00:28:55.76\00:28:58.13
at this very time in
1510 about the building of the
00:28:58.13\00:29:00.77
basilica, that will become
the thing that Luther will say,
00:29:00.77\00:29:03.54
no.
00:29:03.54\00:29:04.74
And so, fascinatingly,
the desire to build a bigger
00:29:04.74\00:29:08.18
ediphus, the construction
of a building becomes
00:29:08.18\00:29:11.31
paradoxically, ironically,
the very thing that would bring
00:29:11.31\00:29:14.65
about the deconstruction of
Roman Catholicism in Europe.
00:29:14.65\00:29:20.72
Hey, we're gonna build a
bigger building, that's gonna
00:29:20.72\00:29:23.06
not set right, the way, the
means that they'll raise money
00:29:23.06\00:29:25.13
for that, and that
will eventually compromise
00:29:25.13\00:29:28.26
significantly in the church.
00:29:28.26\00:29:30.33
>>TY: By the way, we should
point out for those sitting in
00:29:30.33\00:29:31.80
on the conversation with us
that Carlos Eire, I don't know
00:29:31.80\00:29:34.47
if you mentioned
this, is a Catholic himself.
00:29:34.47\00:29:37.31
And so, he's not giving
a Protestant critique, he's
00:29:37.31\00:29:40.01
simply reporting the facts
of history as they unfolded and
00:29:40.01\00:29:44.55
he's incriminating his own
church in the process because
00:29:44.55\00:29:48.38
he's trying to be true to what
actually unfolded in history,
00:29:48.38\00:29:52.12
yeah, that's right.
00:29:52.12\00:29:53.52
>>DAVID: So, do we wanna
talk at all about Luther's
00:29:53.52\00:29:55.82
conversion?
00:29:55.82\00:29:57.96
>>TY: Yes,
absolutely, absolutely.
00:29:57.96\00:29:59.36
Well, we're all familiar
with the 1510 trip to Rome, the
00:29:59.36\00:30:06.10
pilgrimage to Rome.
00:30:06.10\00:30:07.54
But prior to that, we
need to go earlier than that in
00:30:07.54\00:30:11.24
Luther's experience and
realize that he was raised in
00:30:11.24\00:30:13.58
a home, a you know, lower,
middle class home where at
00:30:13.58\00:30:19.61
least education would be
something that could be done,
00:30:19.61\00:30:22.88
and his father wanted him to
pursue law and he was actually
00:30:22.88\00:30:27.09
in law school for a period
of time, and the story is told
00:30:27.09\00:30:30.96
that Luther was on his way
back to the university, back
00:30:30.96\00:30:34.56
to law school, found himself
in a thunderstorm where he
00:30:34.56\00:30:38.23
feared for his life, and
this is very fascinating to me.
00:30:38.23\00:30:42.07
When a human being
is confronted with their
00:30:42.07\00:30:45.91
mortality, their theology,
their picture of God comes to
00:30:45.91\00:30:49.68
the surface, it just
bubbles right up to the surface.
00:30:49.68\00:30:53.45
So, he is in fear for his
life because of the lightning
00:30:53.45\00:30:57.52
that's striking all around
him as he's making this journey
00:30:57.52\00:31:00.12
back to law school and his
theology comes to the surface
00:31:00.12\00:31:04.89
and his theology comes to
the surface something like,
00:31:04.89\00:31:08.36
oftentimes our
theology comes to the surface.
00:31:08.36\00:31:11.17
His theology comes to the
surface by him saying, God, if
00:31:11.17\00:31:16.14
you spare my life and get me
through this storm, I strike a
00:31:16.14\00:31:20.98
bargain with you, I vow to
you that I will quit law school
00:31:20.98\00:31:26.18
and I will become a monk.
00:31:26.18\00:31:28.68
I will commit
myself to the holy order.
00:31:28.68\00:31:31.15
I will give myself
to you, God, entirely.
00:31:31.15\00:31:33.92
Just spare my life.
00:31:33.92\00:31:36.93
His life is spared and
conscientious fellow that he
00:31:36.93\00:31:41.00
is, he follows through with
his commitment and Luther, to
00:31:41.00\00:31:45.27
his father's utter dismay,
quits law school and enters
00:31:45.27\00:31:49.60
into the monastery and
becomes an Augustinian monk.
00:31:49.60\00:31:54.44
So, right there at the
beginning, he's devoted to
00:31:54.44\00:31:58.21
Catholicism, he's devoted at
that point and his theology is
00:31:58.21\00:32:02.75
completely, completely
distorted and through the
00:32:02.75\00:32:07.09
process of entering into the
monastic order that he enters
00:32:07.09\00:32:12.29
into becoming an Augustinian
monk, one of his professors
00:32:12.29\00:32:17.10
notices that he is just
tormented with a haunting
00:32:17.10\00:32:23.51
sense of God's judgment.
00:32:23.51\00:32:25.57
Luther himself describes that
his religious experience was
00:32:25.57\00:32:29.21
basically defined by fear
of God's wrath and anything he
00:32:29.21\00:32:33.15
could do in order to mitigate
or divert that wrath from
00:32:33.15\00:32:36.92
himself.
00:32:36.92\00:32:38.12
I mean, this is a kind of
guy who is sleeping while there
00:32:38.12\00:32:41.49
is, you know, some kind of
medieval makeshift mattress
00:32:41.49\00:32:44.53
filled with straw, at
least it's cushy, and it's right
00:32:44.53\00:32:47.36
there and it's, you know,
comfortable for the times, but
00:32:47.36\00:32:50.97
he's deliberately moving
off the cushy thing to lay
00:32:50.97\00:32:54.34
straight on the floor and
to basically impose pain on
00:32:54.34\00:32:58.61
himself in order to say to
God, through those actions,
00:32:58.61\00:33:03.14
God, accept me on the
premise of the pain that I'm
00:33:03.14\00:33:07.15
inflicting on myself.
00:33:07.15\00:33:10.39
This is a serious guy.
00:33:10.39\00:33:12.02
He is completely, completely
devoted to the misconception
00:33:12.02\00:33:16.19
of God's character that he has.
00:33:16.19\00:33:17.96
>>DAVID: I wanna say
just one brief thing there.
00:33:17.96\00:33:19.53
What Luther did
was not anomalous.
00:33:19.53\00:33:22.03
It was in keeping with the
theological perspective of his
00:33:22.03\00:33:24.97
time.
00:33:24.97\00:33:26.13
Right?
00:33:26.13\00:33:27.30
Like, oh, no, something
really bad is happening, I will.
00:33:27.30\00:33:28.50
In other words, Luther is not,
he doesn't stand out in that
00:33:28.50\00:33:31.94
respect.
00:33:31.94\00:33:33.11
That was the kind of thing
that any number of hundreds of
00:33:33.11\00:33:34.81
other, thousands of
other German young men could've
00:33:34.81\00:33:38.68
said.
00:33:38.68\00:33:39.71
That was the thing to
do, it was just ubiquitous.
00:33:39.71\00:33:42.22
God, I'll do this for him
and then everything will be
00:33:42.22\00:33:45.35
alright.
00:33:45.35\00:33:46.52
But he couldn't assuage the
torment, the sense of guilt,
00:33:46.52\00:33:52.36
he just couldn't do it.
00:33:52.36\00:33:53.53
Scrubbing floors,
sleeping on the floor.
00:33:53.53\00:33:56.36
I mean, all of that
just wouldn't go away.
00:33:56.36\00:33:59.20
>>TY: Okay, so, now,
fast-forward to 1510, when he
00:33:59.20\00:34:03.27
makes his pilgrimage to Rome
and the fact is, again, they
00:34:03.27\00:34:06.71
didn't have the internet,
there weren't pictures of what
00:34:06.71\00:34:09.38
was going on there, there
weren't people blog posting
00:34:09.38\00:34:11.81
about what's going on.
00:34:11.81\00:34:13.28
He thinks it's holy place
and people are just serving the
00:34:13.28\00:34:17.42
Lord.
00:34:17.42\00:34:18.59
And he gets to Rome and
he encounters the abuse and
00:34:18.59\00:34:25.63
misuse of power, the
abuse of people for power.
00:34:25.63\00:34:30.57
He witnesses that
the priesthood is utterly
00:34:30.57\00:34:33.03
corrupted.
00:34:33.03\00:34:34.44
>>DAVID: The selling of
all kinds of ridiculous relics.
00:34:34.44\00:34:36.44
>>TY: But, here's the thing,
even though his picture of God
00:34:36.44\00:34:38.94
was completely distorted,
one of his professors back at
00:34:38.94\00:34:43.85
school said, Luther, you
need to read the book of Romans.
00:34:43.85\00:34:47.72
So, he had been reading
the book of Romans, he'd been
00:34:47.72\00:34:50.49
reading the book of Romans,
so when he comes to Rome...
00:34:50.49\00:34:53.92
>>JEFFERY: On his way to
Rome, I didn't know that.
00:34:53.92\00:34:55.82
>>TY: Yeah, he comes to
Rome and he determines to go up
00:34:55.82\00:34:58.79
Pilate's staircase on his
knees 'til they're bloody,
00:34:58.79\00:35:01.96
hopefully, in order to earn
God's favor and words that he
00:35:01.96\00:35:05.67
had written now have a context.
00:35:05.67\00:35:08.30
That he had read in Romans,
words that he had read in
00:35:08.30\00:35:12.37
Romans now have a context
as he is inflicting on himself
00:35:12.37\00:35:16.41
this pain in order to appease
the wrath of God, he hears the
00:35:16.41\00:35:19.61
words, the just shall live
by faith, and he stands up, gets
00:35:19.61\00:35:26.12
off of his knees, and there
is just a small liberation that
00:35:26.12\00:35:30.29
is occurring right there
where you realize, no, there's
00:35:30.29\00:35:33.63
something fundamentally wrong
with approaching God in this
00:35:33.63\00:35:38.60
manner, and he stands up and
he begins to be free from that
00:35:38.60\00:35:45.94
horrible sense of a guilty
conscience that cannot at all
00:35:45.94\00:35:50.78
be satisfied before God.
00:35:50.78\00:35:54.22
>>DAVID: By
something that we would do.
00:35:54.22\00:35:56.32
>>TY: By anything.
00:35:56.32\00:35:57.55
>>JEFFERY: you mentioned that
he was on, it was through, via
00:35:57.55\00:35:59.55
Romans.
00:35:59.55\00:36:00.99
And I just remembered
the awesome story of several
00:36:00.99\00:36:03.69
centuries later, John Wesley's
in a chapel in London and he's
00:36:03.69\00:36:08.23
sitting in the back and
somebody gets up and reads,
00:36:08.23\00:36:11.67
yeah, the preface, the
introduction to Luther's
00:36:11.67\00:36:14.54
words.
00:36:14.54\00:36:15.67
And just by listening to
the introduction of that book
00:36:15.67\00:36:18.91
right there.
00:36:18.91\00:36:20.04
>>JAMES: He had also been
through a storm, he had also
00:36:20.04\00:36:21.88
come through this ship and
come through this moment of
00:36:21.88\00:36:27.02
realization that he
was petrified, there's the
00:36:27.02\00:36:30.45
connection.
00:36:30.45\00:36:31.65
>>JEFFERY: The preface of this
book leads to the conversion
00:36:31.65\00:36:35.36
of John Wesley.
00:36:35.36\00:36:36.52
>>JAMES: In fact, it was
the same thunderstorm just came
00:36:36.52\00:36:38.06
later.
00:36:38.06\00:36:38.83
Same rain and it's coming again.
00:36:38.83\00:36:40.53
>>TY: Actually, the preface to
Luther's commentary in Romans,
00:36:40.53\00:36:44.77
Jeffrey, is the best
part of the whole book.
00:36:44.77\00:36:46.70
He summarizes so much so
fast here, he says in the first
00:36:46.70\00:36:50.61
paragraph that Romans is
the purest gospel of all, and
00:36:50.61\00:36:53.44
then, he goes down and he
says, what Paul is about to
00:36:53.44\00:36:57.01
break down for us are words
like lost, sin, grace, faith,
00:36:57.01\00:37:01.12
righteousness, flesh, spirit,
and then he says that little
00:37:01.12\00:37:04.32
word law began to be
magnified, and he had to
00:37:04.32\00:37:08.49
pursue it.
00:37:08.49\00:37:09.66
He pursues it and then,
Luther repeatedly begins to work
00:37:09.66\00:37:13.40
through this idea of the
contrast between what Paul
00:37:13.40\00:37:18.77
calls the works of the law
versus the fulfillment of the
00:37:18.77\00:37:20.90
law.
00:37:20.90\00:37:22.07
And he realizes the language,
the works of the law means
00:37:22.07\00:37:24.54
compliance with the law
externally in order to earn
00:37:24.54\00:37:29.61
God's favor out of fear of
punishment or hope of reward.
00:37:29.61\00:37:33.28
That's how he characterizes it.
00:37:33.28\00:37:34.68
Then, he says, and I love
this language, then he says, but
00:37:34.68\00:37:39.32
there's a different kind
of obedience to the law, the
00:37:39.32\00:37:42.59
fulfillment of the law.
00:37:42.59\00:37:44.36
And he says, it is
characterized by coming, his
00:37:44.36\00:37:47.50
words, not mine, from
the bottom of the heart.
00:37:47.50\00:37:50.60
There's no fear of punishment.
00:37:50.60\00:37:53.50
There's no hope of reward that
is a driving force here, it's
00:37:53.50\00:37:57.14
just from the bottom of
the heart in the light of the
00:37:57.14\00:37:59.91
grace of God, and these
are the kinds of concepts that
00:37:59.91\00:38:03.11
begin to set Luther free and
cause him to reach out to God
00:38:03.11\00:38:08.18
in a whole new way that
he's never known before.
00:38:08.18\00:38:12.42
So, we need to take a break,
again, and we'll come right
00:38:12.42\00:38:17.06
back and pursue
Luther a little bit further.
00:38:17.06\00:38:20.96
[Music]
00:38:20.96\00:38:31.94
Announcer: Truth is not
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00:38:31.94\00:38:34.21
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00:38:34.21\00:38:37.01
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00:38:37.01\00:38:38.78
Truth Link is a series
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00:38:38.78\00:38:41.78
magnify God's love as
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00:38:41.78\00:38:45.65
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00:38:45.65\00:38:46.86
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00:39:00.74\00:39:04.44
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00:39:10.05\00:39:17.05
[Music]
00:39:17.05\00:39:23.69
>>TY: So, Romans, the book
of Romans was the catalyst for
00:39:23.69\00:39:26.33
Luther's transformation.
00:39:26.33\00:39:28.66
He began with a picture of
God that was very dark and ugly
00:39:28.66\00:39:31.93
and foreboding and his whole
experience with God was driven
00:39:31.93\00:39:35.90
by fear and a desire to
merit or earn God's favor.
00:39:35.90\00:39:41.04
Well, he begins to realize,
wait a minute, I can't earn
00:39:41.04\00:39:44.35
God's favor
because I already have it.
00:39:44.35\00:39:47.62
He begins to realize,
obedience to the law in order
00:39:47.62\00:39:52.95
to gain heaven or evade hell,
fear of punishment, hope of
00:39:52.95\00:39:56.79
reward, has nothing to do
with Jesus, my focus is still on
00:39:56.79\00:40:00.86
myself, I just
wanna save my hide.
00:40:00.86\00:40:02.93
He begins to realize, and
I love his language, that the
00:40:02.93\00:40:05.77
only kind of obedience that
can be meaningful at all and
00:40:05.77\00:40:08.34
doesn't merit anything is
obedience from the bottom of
00:40:08.34\00:40:11.74
the heart, from the bottom
of the heart that is actuated by
00:40:11.74\00:40:16.31
love for the Savior
because his love that is first
00:40:16.31\00:40:19.55
extended.
00:40:19.55\00:40:20.98
So, Jeffrey, you had
something about Romans.
00:40:20.98\00:40:22.92
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, well,
this idea of the law and his
00:40:22.92\00:40:25.59
understanding of Romans, I was
reading the preface to Romans
00:40:25.59\00:40:29.46
and there's this powerful
point where he's, at some
00:40:29.46\00:40:33.16
point in his career, he begins
to get attacked as someone who
00:40:33.16\00:40:36.87
is downing the law, right?
00:40:36.87\00:40:38.90
>>JAMES: Paul or Luther?
00:40:38.90\00:40:40.80
>>JEFFERY: Luther, because his
message is salvation by faith
00:40:40.80\00:40:42.97
alone, not by obedience of
the law, which is also Paul, of
00:40:42.97\00:40:45.67
course.
00:40:45.67\00:40:46.88
And he turns the tables and
he says, no, I, me, the one who
00:40:46.88\00:40:51.88
is emphasizing faith over
the law, actually have a higher
00:40:51.88\00:40:56.15
view of the law than
those of you who believe we're
00:40:56.15\00:40:59.59
justified by the law.
00:40:59.59\00:41:01.32
And can I read something?
00:41:01.32\00:41:02.76
This is straight from
his word, this is powerful.
00:41:02.76\00:41:05.69
He says, you do everything
without free desire and love
00:41:05.69\00:41:09.93
of the law, you
act out of force.
00:41:09.93\00:41:13.40
You would rather act otherwise
if the law didn't exist.
00:41:13.40\00:41:18.41
So, process that, process that.
00:41:18.41\00:41:20.58
Your framework says, you're
justified by keeping the law.
00:41:20.58\00:41:23.21
But that's an internal battle.
00:41:23.21\00:41:25.55
Therefore, if it didn't
exist, you would love to do
00:41:25.55\00:41:27.08
otherwise, but you can't
just because the law exists, and
00:41:27.08\00:41:30.35
then, he says, it follows,
then, that you in the depth of
00:41:30.35\00:41:35.56
your heart are
an enemy of the law.
00:41:35.56\00:41:39.33
>>TY: Yeah, in the
bottom of your heart again.
00:41:39.33\00:41:41.13
>>JEFFERY: Whereas he's
saying, me, on the other hand,
00:41:41.13\00:41:44.03
I believe that the law
makes demands on the heart.
00:41:44.03\00:41:47.60
We're justified by faith, right?
00:41:47.60\00:41:50.64
But a justified by works of
the law framework actually has
00:41:50.64\00:41:55.84
a low view of the law.
00:41:55.84\00:41:57.45
So, there's this, he's just
on a whole different level with
00:41:57.45\00:42:02.22
his
understanding of justification.
00:42:02.22\00:42:04.12
>>TY: I had a similar
conversation with a guy a
00:42:04.12\00:42:05.85
number of years ago, I
had preached a sermon that was
00:42:05.85\00:42:08.09
very much focused on salvation
by grace through faith in Christ
00:42:08.09\00:42:11.56
alone, and the discussion that
we had was one in which he said,
00:42:11.56\00:42:16.60
I need to challenge
your theology because you are
00:42:16.60\00:42:20.50
minimizing obedience to the law.
00:42:20.50\00:42:23.07
He said, I believe in, I
believe that obedience to the
00:42:23.07\00:42:28.18
law of God is
necessary and you don't.
00:42:28.18\00:42:32.01
And I said,
you're exactly right.
00:42:32.01\00:42:34.15
You believe that obedience
to the law of God is necessary
00:42:34.15\00:42:36.99
and I don't.
00:42:36.99\00:42:38.09
I said, I actually believe
that the gospel dictates a
00:42:38.09\00:42:40.86
higher standard.
00:42:40.86\00:42:42.49
You believe that obedience
to the law is necessary.
00:42:42.49\00:42:45.46
I believe that obedience
to the law is inevitable.
00:42:45.46\00:42:49.36
You're hoping it's going to
happen, I know it's going to
00:42:49.36\00:42:53.70
happen, because the
gospel produces obedience of the
00:42:53.70\00:42:59.87
right character and quality
from the heart, which isn't
00:42:59.87\00:43:03.71
under threat of hell or
under bribe with heaven.
00:43:03.71\00:43:09.35
>>DAVID: Ty, you said
something a few days ago, you
00:43:09.35\00:43:13.12
actually wrote it, and it just
so registered with me, and you
00:43:13.12\00:43:15.56
might remember it exactly, but
it was something like, if you
00:43:15.56\00:43:17.96
are doing what you're doing
in order to escape punishment or
00:43:17.96\00:43:21.96
to gain a reward, then
it's not really God you're
00:43:21.96\00:43:25.60
interested in.
00:43:25.60\00:43:26.67
There's something
else going on there.
00:43:26.67\00:43:29.27
It's a subtle form of
selfishness is what it is.
00:43:29.27\00:43:31.37
It's legalism exalts the self.
00:43:31.37\00:43:35.78
'Cause it's me, I.
00:43:35.78\00:43:37.21
>>JEFFERY: And from the
beginning of the series,
00:43:37.21\00:43:39.38
that's what we've
been talking about, right?
00:43:39.38\00:43:41.08
From the beginning, from
Daniel, the issue is placing
00:43:41.08\00:43:44.65
ourselves, or man
where God belongs.
00:43:44.65\00:43:48.06
>>TY: So, quickly,
let's go to the 95 thesis.
00:43:48.06\00:43:49.56
What are those things all about?
00:43:49.56\00:43:50.73
Why does he do that?
00:43:50.73\00:43:52.13
What's the basic
content of these things?
00:43:52.13\00:43:54.50
Do you even agree
with all 95 of them.
00:43:54.50\00:43:56.97
>>DAVID: No.
00:43:56.97\00:43:58.70
Because Luther's writing
from inside of the church as a
00:43:58.70\00:44:02.94
desired reformer of the church.
00:44:02.94\00:44:06.24
Not a Protestant reformer,
but just a reformer, internal
00:44:06.24\00:44:08.74
reformer, of course.
00:44:08.74\00:44:09.91
Papal supremacy, and other
things that we would push back
00:44:09.91\00:44:14.58
on.
00:44:14.58\00:44:15.82
It's important to recognize that
what's happening there is that
00:44:15.82\00:44:18.25
as Luther in the sort of between
1510 and 1517, so he's gonna
00:44:18.25\00:44:22.82
nail the thesis to
the door in 1517, right?
00:44:22.82\00:44:25.83
October of that year.
00:44:25.83\00:44:27.36
So, in that 7 year intervening
period that you described, where
00:44:27.36\00:44:30.10
he stands up, the just shall
live by faith, there's a whole
00:44:30.10\00:44:32.23
lot of bible
study going on in there.
00:44:32.23\00:44:34.04
And now, there's so many
factors that are emerging
00:44:34.04\00:44:37.97
here, but one of them is a
growing sense of nationalism.
00:44:37.97\00:44:41.98
We're in the 16th century now,
and the new emerging reality,
00:44:41.98\00:44:47.78
outside of the church, outside
of Luther is that Germans are
00:44:47.78\00:44:50.99
becoming more, hey, we're
German, and the French are
00:44:50.99\00:44:54.19
becoming, hey, we're French,
where before, it had been the
00:44:54.19\00:44:56.26
holy Roman empire and it
was what the pope was doing.
00:44:56.26\00:44:59.23
If what Luther tried to do,
if what Luther did, he tried to
00:44:59.23\00:45:03.57
do 200 years before, it
doesn't get off the ground.
00:45:03.57\00:45:06.07
It gets off the ground here
because when Luther begins to
00:45:06.07\00:45:08.54
say the things that he says
in the thesis, and Pope Leo the
00:45:08.54\00:45:12.74
Tenth says, hey, we got a
problem, we're gonna take care
00:45:12.74\00:45:16.58
of this guy, Fredrick of
Saxony who was one of the
00:45:16.58\00:45:20.42
electors, was the elector
from Luther's area says, no, no,
00:45:20.42\00:45:23.45
no, no, I like my monk.
00:45:23.45\00:45:25.22
I like the prestige he brings,
I like, we're keeping him.
00:45:25.22\00:45:27.92
So, there's all of
these fascinating little
00:45:27.92\00:45:30.96
contingencies that if they
don't line up historically,
00:45:30.96\00:45:33.80
providentially, we
don't get this story.
00:45:33.80\00:45:36.03
>>TY: Right, right, the
papacy's overextending its
00:45:36.03\00:45:38.23
power and people and
individuals, princes, kings,
00:45:38.23\00:45:46.91
are beginning to back up
from that power and say, listen,
00:45:46.91\00:45:49.34
this far, no further, and
Luther gives voice to what
00:45:49.34\00:45:53.45
they're feeling.
00:45:53.45\00:45:54.62
>>JEFFERY: You know, what
really strikes me about the 95
00:45:54.62\00:45:56.32
thesis, when you read down,
I mean, when I got to the 80s
00:45:56.32\00:45:59.25
and there's like a simplicity
and a sincerity in some of
00:45:59.25\00:46:05.53
those, yeah, when I read this,
it doesn't sound profound, but
00:46:05.53\00:46:10.47
if you imagine yourself in
this world, where that system
00:46:10.47\00:46:14.90
was the norm, he says,
for example, in thesis 82, he
00:46:14.90\00:46:20.21
basically says, okay, wait,
so there are thousands of souls
00:46:20.21\00:46:24.61
in purgatory and the pope has
the power to get them out, and
00:46:24.61\00:46:29.82
then, he says this, so,
why not just do it for free?
00:46:29.82\00:46:33.86
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:46:33.86\00:46:36.52
Yeah, why not do it for free?
00:46:36.52\00:46:37.33
If he likes
people, he likes people.
00:46:37.33\00:46:40.53
>>JEFFERY: That's such a
simple thought, and yet, it's
00:46:40.53\00:46:42.76
so profound.
00:46:42.76\00:46:43.97
So, wait, wait, wait, you
have the power, so why don't you
00:46:43.97\00:46:47.00
just do it for free?
00:46:47.00\00:46:49.20
Why are you charging us?
00:46:49.20\00:46:51.87
So, to me, you can imagine
how that would fire up an entire
00:46:51.87\00:46:57.88
generation.
00:46:57.88\00:46:59.01
>>DAVID: The event, probably
more than any other single
00:46:59.01\00:47:00.65
event that really catalyzed
Luther's desire to nail the
00:47:00.65\00:47:04.79
thesis and to push back on
the church was a fellow by the
00:47:04.79\00:47:10.06
name of Johan Teslow came
to his area, what you got?
00:47:10.06\00:47:12.93
>>JEFFERY: Who was a Dominican.
00:47:12.93\00:47:15.03
>>DAVID: He was
a Dominican, okay.
00:47:15.03\00:47:17.20
And so, he comes to the area
and he's raising money for the
00:47:17.20\00:47:21.80
basilica in Rome.
00:47:21.80\00:47:24.07
Now, there's an interesting
little story that Carlos Eire
00:47:24.07\00:47:25.94
tells in the book Reformations
that I won't go into here in
00:47:25.94\00:47:28.78
too detail, but I will say
this, too much detail, there
00:47:28.78\00:47:32.11
was an archbishop, I think
his last name was Albrecht.
00:47:32.11\00:47:34.45
Archbishop Albrecht, and
he had incurred a significant
00:47:34.45\00:47:37.65
debt because, back in
those days, you could purchase
00:47:37.65\00:47:39.72
dieses, you could like,
purchase this dieses, and
00:47:39.72\00:47:42.82
purchase, and he went
into debt to these people.
00:47:42.82\00:47:45.39
So, he himself had this
big debt that he wanted to pay
00:47:45.39\00:47:47.76
off, Rome is trying to do, so
what they do is they work this
00:47:47.76\00:47:51.23
little, hey, I scratch your
back, you scratch mine, we got
00:47:51.23\00:47:53.20
just the guy to come
and raise a bunch of money.
00:47:53.20\00:47:55.90
This guy can
preach a fiery sermon.
00:47:55.90\00:47:57.74
So, they bring him in, and
so, Albrecht, the archbishop, is
00:47:57.74\00:48:01.01
gonna be, you know, to pay his
own personal debt, he's gonna
00:48:01.01\00:48:03.61
be taking some of this money
and he'll be sending a lot of
00:48:03.61\00:48:06.25
it on to Rome as well, so,
this whole monetization of the
00:48:06.25\00:48:10.79
Christian faith, and when
he shows up, he was not allowed
00:48:10.79\00:48:14.12
into Luther's territory
for reasons I don't fully
00:48:14.12\00:48:16.96
understand, but Fredrick of
Saxon, he did not let him in
00:48:16.96\00:48:20.30
his territory, so he's on
the periphery of where Luther's
00:48:20.30\00:48:22.83
at.
00:48:22.83\00:48:24.03
But a lot of Luther's chruch
members are going out, they're
00:48:24.03\00:48:27.67
putting their coin, you
know, what was the thing that he
00:48:27.67\00:48:29.54
said, you know, the...
00:48:29.54\00:48:30.81
>>JAMES: When the coin drops...
00:48:30.81\00:48:32.37
>>DAVID: The soul flings.
00:48:32.37\00:48:33.71
When it rings or
something like that.
00:48:33.71\00:48:36.61
The soul springs.
00:48:36.61\00:48:37.51
>>TY: The coin
clings, the soul springs.
00:48:37.51\00:48:39.55
>>DAVID: Yeah, that's it.
00:48:39.55\00:48:41.05
So, he's preaching his little
sermon and Luther's coming
00:48:41.05\00:48:42.35
back with these notes for
plenary indulgence, which was
00:48:42.35\00:48:45.09
like an indulgence on
steroids, like you kinda do
00:48:45.09\00:48:48.39
what you wanna do, and Luther
says, those are meaningless,
00:48:48.39\00:48:52.19
and his members are like, what?
00:48:52.19\00:48:55.03
No, I just purchased.
00:48:55.03\00:48:56.13
It means nothing.
00:48:56.13\00:48:57.27
So, he's pushing back, and
Teslow's, like, what, you've
00:48:57.27\00:49:01.40
got this monk over there,
so this, it escalates, did you
00:49:01.40\00:49:04.67
like that?
00:49:04.67\00:49:05.84
And that was an even that
catalyzed Luther saying, okay,
00:49:05.84\00:49:09.54
alright, get me a piece
of paper, we're gonna...
00:49:09.54\00:49:11.61
>>JEFFERY: Can I read number 36?
00:49:11.61\00:49:13.11
Can I read thesis 36?
00:49:13.11\00:49:15.15
Just to commentary on what
you said, he says basically that
00:49:15.15\00:49:16.79
every, quote, every
truly repentant Christian has a
00:49:16.79\00:49:23.29
right to full
remission of penalty and guilt.
00:49:23.29\00:49:26.53
Even without letters of pardon.
00:49:26.53\00:49:29.33
Again, it's so, that's a
simple statement, but that
00:49:29.33\00:49:33.74
statement is basically
sticking it to the great
00:49:33.74\00:49:36.50
powers of the time.
00:49:36.50\00:49:37.84
>>TY: But in sticking it
to eh powers that be, there's
00:49:37.84\00:49:40.84
another interesting,
very humble approach that he's
00:49:40.84\00:49:44.68
taking, and you know, he
wasn't very humble afterwards,
00:49:44.68\00:49:47.72
but at this point, he's
actually, a number of times,
00:49:47.72\00:49:50.29
speaking for the pope.
00:49:50.29\00:49:51.65
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, he's saying,
I'm trying to protect you.
00:49:51.65\00:49:53.49
>>TY: I'm trying to help the
pope out here, now, I want you
00:49:53.49\00:49:55.26
all to know that the pope is
a great guy and he wouldn't want
00:49:55.26\00:49:58.66
this, he wouldn't want this.
00:49:58.66\00:50:00.96
So, I'm telling you how it
is on behalf of the pope because
00:50:00.96\00:50:03.16
I'm a religious leader, I'm
a monk, I'm Dr. Martin Luther
00:50:03.16\00:50:06.53
and I know how this all works.
00:50:06.53\00:50:08.00
So, he's assuming the best.
00:50:08.00\00:50:10.21
>>DAVID: So, when this
gets back to Pope Leo the Tenth,
00:50:10.21\00:50:16.91
again, these are pre-internet
days, so it takes a little
00:50:16.91\00:50:18.98
time.
00:50:18.98\00:50:20.18
When Pope Leo the Tenth first
hears about this, he regards
00:50:20.18\00:50:23.65
it, I think the exact quote
is, as some monkish squabble.
00:50:23.65\00:50:27.62
>>TY: He wants to ignore it.
00:50:27.62\00:50:29.06
>>DAVID: He's just like,
ah, whatever, it's not a thing.
00:50:29.06\00:50:30.83
But here's the thing, this guy
named Gutenberg, just invented
00:50:30.83\00:50:33.93
the internet of the medieval
period, and all of a sudden is
00:50:33.93\00:50:39.87
because, you said something
that was so true, Ty, what
00:50:39.87\00:50:43.00
Luther was doing was, he was
tapping into and giving voice
00:50:43.00\00:50:48.41
to this simmering
consciousness of nationalism,
00:50:48.41\00:50:51.55
of oppression, of rising
literacy and emergence of a
00:50:51.55\00:50:54.95
middle class, and they're
like, yeah, that's right, and
00:50:54.95\00:50:57.79
the thing is just,
before, when Pope Leo the Tenth
00:50:57.79\00:51:01.19
realizes what's going
on, Luther's a celebrity.
00:51:01.19\00:51:05.53
In fact, I think I said
recently that Luther was,
00:51:05.53\00:51:07.10
maybe, he was arguably the
first ever celebrity in the
00:51:07.10\00:51:11.03
world.
00:51:11.03\00:51:11.87
He had rock star status.
00:51:11.87\00:51:13.20
People from different
towns knowing who this guy is.
00:51:13.20\00:51:16.10
>>TY: Gutenberg's press
was not just producing the 95
00:51:16.10\00:51:17.81
thesis, it was producing full
on posters of Luther himself
00:51:17.81\00:51:24.98
that were being pinned
on walls all over the place.
00:51:24.98\00:51:28.45
I mean, this was going viral.
00:51:28.45\00:51:31.65
You mentioned a moment ago
that a number of events had to
00:51:31.65\00:51:35.56
line up, well, one of them was
just a communication tool and
00:51:35.56\00:51:39.26
that was the printing press.
00:51:39.26\00:51:40.80
>>DAVID: Which, I was actually
just recently in Strasbourg,
00:51:40.80\00:51:43.80
France, and that's where
Gutenberg did a lot of his
00:51:43.80\00:51:46.43
work on the
moveable type printing press.
00:51:46.43\00:51:48.77
That sort of 1430s,
1440s, 1450s, Luther comes along
00:51:48.77\00:51:53.11
1517, like, if you don't have
this, you don't have Luther.
00:51:53.11\00:51:57.15
I've said it this way, that
in order for the church to be
00:51:57.15\00:52:00.98
reformed, you need 4
essential ingredients.
00:52:00.98\00:52:03.12
You needed a message,
which we're gonna get to, solace
00:52:03.12\00:52:05.65
scriptura.
00:52:05.65\00:52:06.86
You need a mess, and
the church was a mess.
00:52:06.86\00:52:09.19
It was a mess on many levels.
00:52:09.19\00:52:11.03
You need a man, you got that
now with Luther, and you need
00:52:11.03\00:52:15.13
a means, and
that's the printing press.
00:52:15.13\00:52:18.43
If all four of those things
do not line up, you do not get
00:52:18.43\00:52:21.27
the Protestant reformation.
00:52:21.27\00:52:23.04
Now, there were people,
we should say, even before
00:52:23.04\00:52:25.84
Luther, there were people that
were beginning to raise some
00:52:25.84\00:52:29.01
of these concerns.
00:52:29.01\00:52:30.35
>>TY: Significantly.
00:52:30.35\00:52:31.55
>>DAVID: Yeah, John Hass,
and prior to him, John Wycliffe.
00:52:31.55\00:52:33.98
So, there were people that
were raising, but Luther, he
00:52:33.98\00:52:39.09
galvanized, he captured the
spirit of the age, and he put
00:52:39.09\00:52:43.66
it into words and then
Gutenberg spread it and you're
00:52:43.66\00:52:46.70
off to the races.
00:52:46.70\00:52:48.93
This is not just
a monkish squabble.
00:52:48.93\00:52:51.00
This is the incremental
deconstruction of the medieval
00:52:51.00\00:52:54.67
church.
00:52:54.67\00:52:55.74
>>JEFFERY: Somebody
pointed out that the difference
00:52:55.74\00:52:57.34
between Luther and the former,
Wycliffe and so forth, is that
00:52:57.34\00:53:01.28
Wycliffe and some of the early
reformers, they were calling
00:53:01.28\00:53:05.75
out to the abuses of what the
church was doing, but Luther,
00:53:05.75\00:53:10.45
from there and shortly
after, begins to challenge
00:53:10.45\00:53:12.72
theologically.
00:53:12.72\00:53:14.82
>>DAVID: Okay.
00:53:14.82\00:53:16.09
>>JEFFERY: And that's
a huge difference, right?
00:53:16.09\00:53:18.23
The abuse of power versus
it's theologically messed up.
00:53:18.23\00:53:21.96
>>DAVID: It's
not just an instance.
00:53:21.96\00:53:24.00
>>JEFFERY: So, I think
that later on, as he starts
00:53:24.00\00:53:26.07
writing, I think that's
where he separates himself in a
00:53:26.07\00:53:30.07
sense.
00:53:30.07\00:53:31.27
>>DAVID: And he writes a bunch
of, Jeffrey, when is it that
00:53:31.27\00:53:33.54
he writes those three,
that's not until Warburg?
00:53:33.54\00:53:36.88
When does he write those
like three pamphlets, the
00:53:36.88\00:53:38.68
letters...
00:53:38.68\00:53:39.55
>>JEFFERY: 1520.
00:53:39.55\00:53:41.62
>>JAMES: Another thing, too,
is Luther is speaking from an
00:53:41.62\00:53:46.99
experience.
00:53:46.99\00:53:47.99
So, he's not just
talking about theology.
00:53:47.99\00:53:49.46
He's not sitting, like,
sometimes, we can sit here and
00:53:49.46\00:53:51.23
we can do the research and get
the history together and say,
00:53:51.23\00:53:53.63
you know, really, that
doesn't work for me because that
00:53:53.63\00:53:55.66
really looks like, that
makes God look a lot better.
00:53:55.66\00:53:58.13
But Luther's
speaking from his experience.
00:53:58.13\00:54:00.67
He's gone through years and
years of this oppression, this
00:54:00.67\00:54:04.37
spiritual oppression, this
guilt, yeah, he has gone up
00:54:04.37\00:54:07.88
and down staircases, and
laying on cold floors, and he
00:54:07.88\00:54:12.11
has struggled and
wrestled with this.
00:54:12.11\00:54:13.88
He's ready to die.
00:54:13.88\00:54:15.05
And so, finally, when this
light dawns on him, he is not
00:54:15.05\00:54:18.49
gonna bite, he is not
gonna give this up for anything.
00:54:18.49\00:54:20.99
He's holding onto this for
all he's got, and he's thinking,
00:54:20.99\00:54:24.09
obviously, he's a
conscientious person, like Ty
00:54:24.09\00:54:26.63
said, he was thinking about
even the pope and apologetics
00:54:26.63\00:54:28.96
to the pope, he's thinking
about other people, whoever
00:54:28.96\00:54:32.07
they are, he just wants to
defend them, protect them, he
00:54:32.07\00:54:34.27
wants them to experience
what he's experiencing.
00:54:34.27\00:54:37.17
>>DAVID: That you for
pointing that out, this was not
00:54:37.17\00:54:39.71
academic for Luther.
00:54:39.71\00:54:41.21
There were academics involved,
but this is his experience.
00:54:41.21\00:54:44.78
This is a liberation of his
soul from, I love the way you
00:54:44.78\00:54:48.28
said it earlier, a dark,
foreboding picture of God into
00:54:48.28\00:54:50.62
the light of the gospel.
00:54:50.62\00:54:52.19
Now, Luther's not there
yet, as we'll continue to see in
00:54:52.19\00:54:54.69
this series, he's not there
yet, but you can't have a 17th
00:54:54.69\00:54:58.06
step or a 27th step or a 103rd
step until you have a first
00:54:58.06\00:55:02.23
step.
00:55:02.23\00:55:03.26
>>JAMES: He was just
showing us how dark it was.
00:55:03.26\00:55:04.73
>>DAVID: It was dark.
00:55:04.73\00:55:05.93
>>JEFFERY: I don't know how
much time we have, but I just
00:55:05.93\00:55:06.74
wanted to make...
00:55:06.74\00:55:07.77
>>TY: One minute.
00:55:07.77\00:55:08.77
Go, go.
00:55:08.77\00:55:09.97
>>JEFFERY: That Luther, when
he was protesting against the
00:55:09.97\00:55:13.27
indulgences, it wasn't an
expression, it wasn't doing
00:55:13.27\00:55:16.01
away with Christians living
their life, in other words, he
00:55:16.01\00:55:20.72
was worried that the
indulgences were replacing
00:55:20.72\00:55:23.49
true good works.
00:55:23.49\00:55:25.29
That's what he
was worried about.
00:55:25.29\00:55:28.26
>>TY: Yeah, 'cause if you
could purchase an indulgence
00:55:28.26\00:55:30.39
that would get you time off in
purgatory, certainly you could
00:55:30.39\00:55:34.20
purchase a super indulgence
that would pay for future sins
00:55:34.20\00:55:37.80
you plan to commit.
00:55:37.80\00:55:39.00
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, so I
just think that's an important
00:55:39.00\00:55:41.00
point.
00:55:41.00\00:55:42.10
He was worried that this
would take away from true good
00:55:42.10\00:55:43.74
works, and that was
a motivation as well.
00:55:43.74\00:55:47.64
He's not altogether theologic.
00:55:47.64\00:55:49.14
He's not thinking, oh,
righteousness by faith, he's
00:55:49.14\00:55:51.08
thinking, wait a second,
they're presenting this slip
00:55:51.08\00:55:53.42
and true Christian charity is
not blossoming in their lives.
00:55:53.42\00:56:00.69
There's something wrong here.
00:56:00.69\00:56:02.06
>>TY: So, Luther, at this
point in history is stepping
00:56:02.06\00:56:05.63
forward with a tremendous
amount of courage to say some
00:56:05.63\00:56:09.10
things that vitally need to be
said, and he's got the guts to
00:56:09.10\00:56:14.70
say what needs to be said.
00:56:14.70\00:56:16.37
[Music]
00:56:16.37\00:56:25.61
?usic]
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