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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000503A
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00:20 >>TY: Alright, guys, session number three in the Protestant 00:23 reformation series. 00:24 We've come from a background that's vitally necessary. 00:28 A foundation that we've laid. 00:30 We haven't jumped right into the Protestant reformation 00:32 because reformation implies that there's something that's 00:35 gone before that's created a state of affairs that makes 00:39 reformation necessary. 00:41 So, in session one, we looked at what we called Hebrew roots 00:47 Christianity. 00:48 That's just, we're just looking for language to wrap 00:51 around a basic idea, and that is what the New Testament 00:55 refers to repeatedly as the law and the prophets, the law 00:58 and the prophets. 00:59 Moses and the prophetic writings of all the other 01:03 prophets besides Moses. 01:04 The Old Testament constitutes a way of relating to God 01:10 because of the way that God's relating to human beings. 01:13 It's reciprocal. 01:14 And that defines the character of God for us, that manner of 01:21 relationship. 01:22 And the key word that we discovered to describe the 01:27 relationship between God and human beings is the word 01:30 covenant and that word just means a commitment made and 01:34 then, hopefully, a returning commitment. 01:36 God's commitment to human beings is unbroken and stable 01:41 and faithful. 01:43 The whole point of the story of scripture, the whole point 01:47 of the narrative is that God is eliciting a similarly 01:52 positive response from human beings to reciprocate his 01:56 faithfulness. 01:57 That's what we're referring to as Hebrew thought. 01:59 But then, we moved on, and in session two, we began to 02:03 discover in Daniel, chapter 7, 8, 9, and 11, that there would 02:10 be, in history, an attack on the very thing that defines 02:13 who God is, covenant. 02:17 So, in chapter 7 of Daniel, we saw that there's a power, a 02:23 kingdom, a system that would arise in the process of 02:28 unfolding empires that would begin to align itself against 02:32 the covenant kingdom of God. 02:35 God operates by covenant, this power is opposed to the 02:38 covenant. 02:39 That's the book of Daniel in a nutshell. 02:41 Alright? 02:42 Now, in this third session, we're going to give a 02:46 provocative title to this discussion that's a biblical 02:50 title, we didn't make these words up, we're gonna call 02:53 this discussion around the table, the great falling away, 02:58 and it's based on a passage of scripture, that we're going to 03:01 spend the majority of our time just cracking into and finding 03:04 out what this is about, it's 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, 03:08 verses 1-8. 03:10 verses 1-8. 03:12 This passage is a little bit complex and so, I think we 03:15 should begin by just reading it word for word, straight 03:16 through. 03:18 >>JEFFERY: We're also gonna go to Acts, right, later on? 03:20 >>TY: Yeah, if you want to, yeah, if you want to. 03:22 But Jeffrey, would you just read the passage, verses 1-8, 03:27 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 1-8. 03:30 I think we just need the whole passage in front of us. 03:33 >>JEFFERY: Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our 03:35 Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, we 03:40 ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by 03:45 spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as 03:50 though the day of Christ had come. 03:53 Let no one deceive you by any means, for that day will not 03:57 come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of 04:02 sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and 04:07 exalts himself above all that is called God or that is 04:11 worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, 04:16 showing himself that he is God. 04:19 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told 04:22 you these things? 04:24 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be 04:27 revealed in his own time. 04:28 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only he 04:32 who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the 04:37 way. 04:38 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord 04:41 will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with 04:44 the brightness of his coming. 04:45 >>TY: That's quite a passage. 04:49 Some of it's pretty obvious language that's easy to 04:52 understand, but some of that language is very strange and 04:56 hard to understand. 04:57 I guess let's just begin with the obvious parts of the 05:01 passage. 05:03 I mean, in summary, isn't Paul saying, hey, don't let anyone 05:08 lead you to believe that the second coming of Jesus has 05:12 already occurred on some spiritual plane somewhere, you 05:16 know, in some way, the Messiah hasn't returned, because that 05:20 is a prominent promise of the New Testament, right? 05:23 Jesus is going to retune. 05:24 And Paul is saying, he hasn't returned, and in fact, he 05:29 won't return until a certain development in history 05:35 unfolds. 05:36 >>JEFFERY: So, I think, right there, that's fascinating 05:39 because it goes very well with what we were discussing in 05:42 Daniel 7 and 8 where we were talking about historical 05:45 developments within Christianity. 05:47 So, here, there's a falling away, there's obviously 05:50 something we're supposed to be looking for, something we're 05:52 supposed to be aware that's happening within Christianity, 05:56 and again, I know I've said this already, but the emphasis 05:59 in verse 3 is attention to a man. 06:03 Alright, so, a man enters into the picture that now begins to 06:06 blur or to distract from God, and so, just to repeat what I 06:10 said earlier that I think the bigger picture here has to do 06:14 with man gravitating toward the position of God within the 06:20 system. 06:21 >>DAVID: That's the whole point of the passage. 06:23 So, just to set what, for me, is a, just to try and set for 06:27 what, man, that does not wanna come out. 06:30 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 06:32 So, there's something in here that I find fascinating and 06:34 that is that in the sort of feel of the letters that we 06:37 have of Paul to the Thessalonians, in the first 06:41 letter to the Thessalonians in chapter 4, we have that 06:43 beautiful passage there where Paul says, you know, brethren, 06:46 I don't want you to be ignorant concerning those that 06:48 have fallen asleep and then, he goes through that sort of 06:50 linear, so, I think, in its historical context, it's quite 06:54 interesting, this is clearly people dying and the seemingly 06:58 delayed return of the Lord was a point of particular 07:03 sensitivity to the church in Thessalonica, right? 07:05 They're like, who's coming? 07:07 Where is he? 07:08 What's going on? 07:09 And Paul is emphatic on this point. 07:11 If somebody writes you a letter, if somebody says that 07:13 they're speaking on our behalf, if somebody, trust me 07:16 on this. 07:18 That day, the day of the Lord, will not come until something 07:22 comes first. 07:23 He's just as emphatic as can be, and we've seen that in 07:26 Paul's writing, he can be, you know, if anybody preaches any 07:28 gospel to you other than what I'm preaching, let them be a 07:30 curse. 07:31 This is that same level of being emphatic and absolute. 07:35 >>JAMES: I think also there's something else here, and that 07:36 is 07:37 -- >>DAVID: You just cut me off when I was gonna make my 07:38 point. 07:39 >>JAMES: Say it, say it, say it, say it. 07:41 >>DAVID: Which, for me, the question I wonder is, how does 07:43 Paul know that? 07:45 How can Paul be so absolutely emphatic? 07:48 That is not, no, no, no, no, Jesus isn't coming next 07:50 Thursday. 07:52 How do you know that? 07:53 Is it because God gave him some prophetic insight? 07:56 No, it's based on what we talked about the last time. 07:58 He was grounded in those very Danielic passages, 7, 8, 9, 08:02 11, so he can say, no, no, no, no, just go back and look at 08:05 the timeline. 08:06 We'll get into that more, but that was my thinking. 08:08 >>JAMES: And I think something else is here, too, that's 08:11 really interesting, so it's 1 Thessalonians 4, where you 08:14 were building on, he says here, and I specifically think 08:18 verse 17, then, talking about the second coming of Christ, 08:23 then we which are alive and remain. 08:26 Okay. 08:29 It's so significant for us, when we study the bible, to 08:32 realize that most of the heresy, most of the 08:35 misunderstanding that people, that develop religious strains 08:42 and strings comes from just misreading the bible. 08:45 So, Paul has sent a letter to the Thessalonians and the 08:48 letter's basically saying, hey, you know, don't worry 08:50 about these people that are dying, they're resting, 08:53 they're sleeping in me and those that are asleep and 08:56 those of us that remain until Jesus comes. 08:59 And the Thessalonians, if you look here in verse 2 of 2 09:05 Thessalonians chapter 2, it says that ye be not soon 09:08 shaken in mind or trouble, neither by spirit nor by word, 09:12 nor by letter, as from us. 09:14 They misunderstood what Paul was saying. 09:16 So, Paul's actually writing them a letter to clarify their 09:19 misunderstanding of his first letter. 09:23 He's saying to them, now, don't be shaken about this 09:25 letter, even the one from us, because, and then, he's added, 09:28 because there's gonna be a falling away from it. 09:30 I know you thought maybe what I was saying was that some of 09:32 us were gonna be alive when Jesus comes, but no, no, no, 09:35 no, that's not gonna happen. 09:37 So, he's adding now, he's clarifying now what he wrote 09:41 in the first letter because they misunderstood what he 09:43 said in the first letter. 09:44 This is really good because, as you go through the bible, 09:47 you see this happening over and over again. 09:49 This is one of the reasons why I think God speaks in 09:53 prophetic cycles, why we have a Daniel 7 added to Daniel 2 09:56 and a Daniel 8 added to Daniel 7 and a Daniel 11 added to 09:59 Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 and Daniel 2, and a Matthew that 10:03 is followed by a Mark that's followed by a Luke that's 10:06 followed by a John. 10:07 If you know what I'm saying. 10:08 There are these times in the bible when you communicate 10:11 something, you know how communication is. 10:14 It's, it can be complicated, it can be difficult. 10:17 It can be misunderstood. 10:18 So, Paul is actually writing to the Thessalonians and he's 10:22 saying, he's saying, listen, listen, listen, I know you 10:27 might've got this idea from what I said, and it seems like 10:29 you can get that idea, that some of us are gonna be alive 10:31 when, but, let me explain further that there's gonna be 10:35 this, and then, he goes back and of course, he's basing 10:38 this on the prophecies of Daniel. 10:39 There's gonna be this apothacy that's gonna take place before 10:41 Jesus actually comes. 10:43 >>JEFFERY: See, I read that different, I read verse 2, I 10:45 read it completely differently, as if from us, is 10:49 the emphasis, so I read, Paul is warning them that other 10:52 people, they're getting conflicting messages from 10:55 others, other voices, and he's saying, don't listen to those 10:58 messages as if they came from us, but I think what's 11:01 interesting is verse 5, do you not remember that when I was 11:04 still with you, I told you these things? 11:07 So, it just seems like this was a thing that the apostles 11:10 kept reiterating to the churches. 11:12 There's gonna be a falling away, there's gonna be a 11:15 falling away. 11:16 >>TY: That shows up in Acts chapter 20 as well. 11:19 >>JEFFERY: With tears, he says. 11:20 >>TY: For 3 years, I told you over and over again, let's 11:23 read that passage, since we mentioned it. 11:26 >>DAVID: Acts 20. 11:27 >>TY: Acts 20, yeah. 11:28 >>DAVID: Beginning in, probably 27? 11:31 >>DAVID: Beginning in, probably 27? 11:35 Yeah, I've got it. 11:38 Oh, it actually begins in... 11:39 >>TY: 29, I think. 11:40 >>DAVID: Well, you can start in 27, you can start in 29, so 11:45 I'll just... 11:46 >>JEFFERY: Well, 31 is the text that we were referring 11:48 to, 31 is for 3 years I told you. 11:51 >>DAVID: Okay, true enough, but I just love, go back to 11:55 say, 28, because it tells you who he's speaking to, he's 11:57 speaking to the leaders of the church, the elders of the 11:59 church in Ephesus, right? 12:01 Acts 20:28. 12:02 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the 12:04 flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, 12:07 to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His 12:09 own blood. 12:10 29, for I know this, there's that certainty again. 12:12 That's very similar to what we just saw in 2 Thessalonians 2. 12:16 That will not happen until this happens. 12:18 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will 12:22 come in among you, not sparing the flock. 12:24 Oh, wow, okay, that sounds dangerous. 12:26 Thirty, also from among yourselves men will rise up, 12:29 speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after 12:31 themselves. 12:33 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not 12:36 cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. 12:38 To me, what's so singularly significant about this passage 12:42 is that Paul is speaking to religious leaders and he 12:44 doesn't just say there will be an external, you know, 12:48 persecution, there'll be an external, you know, savagery 12:51 by wolves out there, he says, from among us, from among your 12:55 own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to 12:59 draw away disciples. 13:00 And he uses the analogy of wolves. 13:02 Well, Jesus had already told us that when these wolves come 13:04 in, they don't always look like wolves. 13:07 >>TY: They're in sheep's clothing sometimes. 13:09 >>DAVID: And so, apparently, central to Paul's basic 13:13 framework of what is going to happen after his departure in 13:17 the, you know, not too far distant days is a grievous 13:22 departure. 13:23 Perverse things, perverse words, being spoken that will 13:27 savage the flock, that will, well, where's he getting this 13:30 from? 13:31 Where's this coming from? 13:32 He's getting it from Daniel. 13:33 >>TY: Which was our previous discussion. 13:35 Do you find it interesting that he says that they will 13:38 arise, speaking perverse things. 13:42 The word perverse literally has reference to taking 13:47 something that is good and misrepresenting it or turning 13:54 it, corrupting it, right? 13:55 So, it's not a complete replacement, it's not removing 14:01 something and putting something else there. 14:03 It's this thing is morphing into something else. 14:06 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's a great point. 14:08 You have to have a genuine, beautiful article in order to 14:11 pervert it. 14:12 >>JAMES: Well, that's the point I was making here in 2 14:14 Thessalonians because Jeffrey was saying, I think, 14:16 correctly, that the letter wasn't really from Paul, but 14:19 they were using what Paul had said to teach something that 14:22 was being perverted. 14:23 Well, Paul said that some of us were gonna be alive when he 14:25 comes. 14:27 And so, they're building on that, and they're perverting 14:28 what Paul has already stated. 14:30 >>TY: And maybe there were those, it seems like what Paul 14:35 was saying is that there were those who were saying that 14:38 Jesus had already come. 14:40 So, I think there was, at that time, a form of mysticism or 14:46 Gnosticism in which some people were saying that the 14:51 second coming of Jesus has occurred in our hearts for 14:55 some of us and if you don't have it, it's a personalized 14:58 second coming rather than a historical event, a universal 15:02 historical event. 15:05 >>DAVID: Jesus had, while we're just adding other 15:07 passages to bear here, you know, Jesus had in passages 15:11 like Matthew 24, Luke 21, John 16, Jesus had alluded to the 15:14 fact that a difficult time was yet future for the church. 15:18 Of course, that is going to be the centerpiece for that in 15:22 Jesus' time, or shortly after, it's gonna be the destruction 15:24 of Jerusalem. 15:25 By the fourth beast, right? 15:27 By Rome. 15:28 So, Jesus is saying things like, there's gonna be a time 15:32 of trouble and it's gonna be difficult and if those days 15:35 weren't shortened, then the elect wouldn't be saved, and 15:37 there's gonna be you know, the love of many will wax cold, 15:39 and in another place, he says, people are gonna kill you and 15:41 think they're doing God a service. 15:44 So, it would be safe to say that neither Paul nor Jesus 15:48 nor John in Revelation as we saw in our last Table Talk 15:50 series, had a particularly rosy or optimistic view about 15:54 the coming centuries. 15:55 Which, we don't have to ask Jesus where he got that idea 16:00 from. 16:01 He says it, in Matthew chapter 24 and verse 15. 16:03 When you see the abomination of desolation, that language 16:06 is straight out of Daniel, spoken of by Daniel the 16:08 prophet, stand in the holy place, you know, let those 16:11 that are in Judea flee to the mount. 16:13 So, Jesus, we don't have to say, him, where did Jesus get 16:15 this from? 16:16 He's telling us. 16:17 I got this from Daniel. 16:18 And we don't have to, even with the text here in 2 16:21 Thessalonians that we'll get back to in a second, there are 16:23 internal indicators, Paul, where are you getting this 16:25 from? 16:26 It's right there. 16:27 From Daniel. 16:28 So, to me, going back to something that we ended on our 16:30 last session, the shape of the trajectory of the 16:36 post-apostolic Christian world is what we see, having as we 16:40 do now the luxury of living years and years, centuries 16:43 after the events described. 16:46 It's just amazing that what was foretold is what has 16:49 happened. 16:50 And we can see it. 16:51 >>JEFFERY: I had a question, but were you gonna say 16:53 something? 16:54 >>TY: No. 16:55 >>JEFFERY: I was gonna ask, what is at stake in not 16:57 understanding that process of falling away? 17:01 Like, I'm thinking, so what, Paul's concerned that they 17:04 don't understand, that they're not aware that this process, 17:07 and I'm thinking now, down to our day, what is at stake? 17:10 What's the danger? 17:11 What's the problem with not having this framework in 17:16 through the career of Christianity? 17:18 >>DAVID: There would be many. 17:19 >>JEFFERY: Well, I think, I wonder if one of those dangers 17:23 would be that now, we would attribute the things that have 17:28 happened to Christianity to Jesus or to what Christianity 17:33 actually is like. 17:34 You get what I'm saying? 17:36 Of course, I'm saying, this enables us to distinguish and 17:42 to distance ourselves from things Christian but not 17:46 Christian, right? 17:49 >>DAVID: Part of Christiandom. 17:50 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, from the abuse of, because without this 17:53 concept, then we and anybody in the world would look and 17:57 say, Christianity is a joke, Christianity has some serious 18:03 dirty laundry. 18:04 >>DAVID: It's violent, it's political, it's coercive. 18:06 >>JEFFERY: Right, and so, this framework, I think is 18:08 extremely important because it allows us to say, not 18:12 everything that has taken place in the name of Christ is 18:16 actually Christian. 18:19 actually Christian. 18:20 So, this has huge contemporary significance is my point. 18:25 >>TY: And in fact, that's what's happened in history is 18:29 people have looked at the unfolding of history and the 18:35 thing that is generally identified as the Christian 18:39 church is the very thing that this prophecy and Daniel's 18:44 prophecy is saying actually isn't. 18:46 The thing that everybody identifies as the thing is not 18:51 really the thing. 18:52 >>JEFFERY: So, when people say, how could you believe in 18:56 that religion? 18:57 Look at the record of the wars, of the inquisition, of 19:01 the crusades, we simply basically say, I don't, and 19:05 better yet, neither does Jesus. 19:08 >>JAMES: There's an explanation for it. 19:10 >>DAVID: And that was the foretold, that was foretold. 19:13 >>JEFFERY: I'm not surprised because we were told that 19:15 would be the case. 19:16 >>DAVID: Another point about what you're saying there, 19:18 Jeffrey, another why does it matter is this gives us a 19:22 sense of where we are, this gives us a sense of location 19:25 in history in the stream of time. 19:27 Where are we? 19:28 Right? 19:29 We are here, we're in that falling away. 19:31 Well, now, we're post, maybe we'll get into that later, but 19:34 we're, that has happened, or is happening, is a better way 19:37 of saying it. 19:38 >>JEFFERY: Can I say one last thing? 19:40 I was watching a debate between a Christian, Dinesh 19:42 D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist, and in 19:45 this debate, the atheist is explaining why Christianity is 19:51 bad for the world and he says, he references, look at the 19:56 record of the inquisition, the Salem witch trials, and he 19:59 lists all of his atrocities, to which the Christian, to my 20:03 horror, the rebuttal was, well, there weren't really 20:07 that many. 20:08 >>TY: But they had hospitals. 20:10 >>JEFFERY: So, to me, as I'm viewing this, I'm thinking, 20:13 no, the thing to say to the atheist would be amen, I fully 20:16 agree with you. 20:18 And I have biblical precedent to agree with you in regards 20:24 to that. 20:25 I think that's important. 20:28 >>TY: James, what was on the tip of your tongue? 20:30 >>JAMES: I was just gonna say, that's what makes this history 20:32 vital for us in the post-modern world. 20:35 We need to have this history. 20:37 In other words, sometimes, we wanna be apologetic and even 20:40 excuse or just like, let's not offend anyone and talk about 20:44 our closet. 20:45 No, let's open up the closet so that we can at least expose 20:50 what it shouldn't look like in our present day, because 20:52 that'll give us hope for going forward. 20:54 >>TY: Absolutely. 20:56 Well, we have to take a break, although, you're all very 20:58 excited about this, but we just have to push the pause 21:01 button for a minute and we'll be right back. 21:03 [Music] 21:08 [Music] 21:17 >>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson, welcome to digma.com. 21:19 I am so excited about this website because you're about 21:23 to discover a powerful new way to share life transforming 21:27 messages and videos with your family, friends, and anybody 21:30 else on the planet who has access to a computer. 21:34 Digma is a Greek word. 21:36 It basically means, to show or to reveal something by means 21:40 of a pattern or an example of some kind. 21:43 It's the second half of the word paradigma, from which we 21:46 get the English word paradigm, as in paradigm shift. 21:51 And so, what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 21:54 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 21:58 paradigms and fundamental questions. 22:01 What's the meaning of life? 22:02 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 22:06 What happens when we die? 22:09 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 22:13 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 22:17 An estimated 70% of Americans have a computer right in their 22:22 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email, 22:26 and more than 400 million people are active on Facebook, 22:31 and 5 million new users are signing up every week. 22:36 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution 22:40 of massive proportion. 22:42 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 22:47 millions upon millions of homes and hearts, and that's 22:52 what digma.com is all about. 22:54 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 22:59 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 23:03 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 23:07 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about 23:13 who God is. 23:14 who God is. 23:25 [Music] 23:32 >>TY: Jeffrey, you were making such a powerful point, 23:34 and it's basically that, oftentimes, the unbeliever, 23:40 the atheist, the agnostic is occupying the rational and 23:44 moral high ground and we feel this obligation to defend 23:50 institutional Christianity down through history, we don't 23:53 need to feel that obligation to justify or to defend 23:58 institutional Christianity down through the ages. 24:01 As James said, we just need to open the closet and say, 24:03 there's some ugly stuff in that closet, so the 24:06 unbeliever's pushback on historical Christiandom is a 24:11 legitimate pushback. 24:14 We need to be saying amen to the atheist's pushback. 24:18 When they call attention to the inquisition, when they 24:20 call attention to the crusades, when they call 24:22 attention to all the atrocities down through the 24:25 middle ages, we don't need to say, but there was a lot of 24:30 good hospital work going on at the time and there was great 24:34 art that Christianity was contributing, and what about 24:37 the literature while we were slaughtering people? 24:40 No, we just need to say, that was wrong, wrong, wrong, and 24:46 here's the incredible thing. 24:48 Bible prophecy foretold that it would exist so that it 24:52 allows us to occupy the rational and moral high ground 24:56 with unbelievers against the very system that we're 25:00 associated with. 25:02 I mean, it's just amazing. 25:04 >>JAMES: Yeah, if we don't understand this, Paul says, at 25:06 the end of this, he says, if we don't understand this, we 25:08 will be deceived with strong delusion of what Christianity 25:11 looks like and doesn't look like and we will not love the 25:14 truth because we'll align Christianity with that which 25:17 is exposed in the dark ages rather than with that which is 25:21 covenant truth. 25:22 And so, the way that he closes this out is, there's gonna be 25:25 strong delusion, there's gonna be people who don't want the 25:27 truth because they're just gonna think in their minds, 25:29 oh, Christianity, oh, I know what that looks like. 25:31 That looks like this. 25:32 And so, these verses are vital, absolutely vital. 25:36 >>JEFFERY: Can we go back to verse 3? 25:40 >>TY: We need to define all the language. 25:45 >>JEFFERY: 'Cause I think... 25:46 >>TY: Let's go through it in order. 25:50 Okay, falling away. 25:52 >>JAMES: Falling away, apostacia is the word, 25:56 defection is the Greek, so it is definitely a turning away 26:00 from the truth, which is described in connection with 26:04 the son of perdition, which is a phrase that is used in 26:08 describing Judas. 26:09 Judas was the son of perdition. 26:11 >>TY: And he was a part of Jesus' crew. 26:13 >>JAMES: He was one of the 12, he cast out devils, he did 26:16 many wonderful works, he followed Christ for 3 and a 26:19 half years, he was in the inner circle, he had his hands 26:21 laid on him, and at the end, he betrayed him for money, he 26:25 betrayed him for... 26:27 >>TY: Indulgences. 26:28 >>JAMES: Yes. 26:29 For advantage. 26:31 For monetary advantage. 26:34 >>JEFFERY: You just made the connection son of perdition to 26:35 Judas? 26:36 >>JAMES: Yes. 26:37 >>JEFFERY: That was really fast, so I wanted to... 26:38 >>TY: It's the only other time in the bible that language is 26:43 used. 26:43 >>DAVID: It's found in John 17:12. 26:45 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, emphasize that, 'cause that's... 26:47 >>TY: So, wait a minute, apostasy, which, falling away, 26:53 in my version, in the Greek, apostasy. 26:56 So, the implication, and we need to make this point, I 26:59 think, to fall away. 27:00 >>DAVID: No, no, no, you said it means, you had a word. 27:04 >>JAMES: It means defection. 27:05 >>TY: Yeah, to defect means that you were once a part of. 27:10 >>JAMES: It can mean divorce as well. 27:13 >>TY: So, there's something going on here where to fall 27:16 away means you were up and now you're coming down. 27:20 To apostatize means that you were connected and now you're 27:22 disconnecting, right? 27:24 So, this is clearly the same kind of language that Daniel 27:29 was using to indicate that this is a transition in 27:33 history that's taking place where Christianity is 27:36 undergoing an apostasy, a falling away. 27:39 >>JAMES: But here's the scary part. 27:41 Verse 4, he exalts himself above all that is called God, 27:45 or is worshipped so that he, as God, sits in the temple of 27:48 God, showing himself that he is God, so, you know, okay, we 27:52 defined all those words. 27:54 Oh, looks like he's leaving, he's not leaving. 27:57 >>TY: He's hanging out. 27:58 >>JAMES: He's replacing. 27:59 He's replacing. 28:01 He's sitting in the place of, and that's where we get the 28:04 idea of antichrist. 28:05 Antichrist is not just against, antichrist is in the 28:08 place of. 28:09 Let me just share this thought with you, this is really 28:11 interesting, okay, we're in John's time right now. 28:13 John, the aide to disciple, right, he's on the Isle of 28:15 Patmos for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, 28:18 he writes these little epistles, 1 John, 2 John, and 28:22 3 John. 28:23 Let me just read this verse in 3 John. 28:25 This guy is the last of the disciples of Christ. 28:27 This guy is like, if you were alive in his time, this is the 28:31 guy you wanna meet. 28:32 Oh, if I could just meet John. 28:34 Okay, so, here he is, okay? 28:37 I wrote unto the church, this is 3 John, verse 9, but 28:42 Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, 28:47 receiveth us not. 28:49 >>TY: So, there's a guy. 28:50 >>JAMES: Just wrap your mind around that for a second. 28:52 There's a guy in the church, he writes a letter to the 28:55 church, there's a guy in the church and what do you want, 28:57 what does he want? 28:58 He wants preeminence. 28:59 So, who is he unwilling to receive? 29:01 >>TY: Paul. 29:02 >>JAMES: No, John. 29:03 >>TY: Oh, John, John, John, John, yes. 29:06 >>JAMES: John, John. 29:07 >>TY: Daniel, Moses. 29:08 >>JAMES: I mean, think about this, think about this, this 29:11 is amazing because when you look at that phrase, the 29:14 wicked one, just go back now to 1 John chapter 2, and look 29:18 at verse 14, John is writing again, he's writing to the 29:22 faithful in the church, not Diotrephes, not the one that's 29:24 rejecting him, but the faithful, and he says, I've 29:27 written unto you, fathers, because you have known him 29:29 that is from the beginning. 29:30 I've written unto you, young men, because you are strong 29:33 and the word of God abideth in you and you have overcome the 29:36 wicked one. 29:38 That's the same phrase that's used in 2 Thessalonians. 29:41 It's talking here in 2 Thessalonians, let me just get 29:44 down to it about the wicked one, where is it? 29:47 Verse 8, and then, shall the wicked be revealed. 29:50 In other words, John is speaking about those who have 29:53 known Jesus, the principles of the covenant, the principles 29:56 of God's kingdom. 29:57 And then, he's talking about other people who don't know 29:59 those principles, and they're in the church. 30:01 The two groups are in the church. 30:03 How are they distinguished? 30:05 Well, if you go to Isaiah 14, you have this whole, the whole 30:08 idea of the wicked one, because the wicked one is 30:11 inspired by Satan. 30:13 Satan, it says... 30:15 >>TY: Is the original wicked one. 30:17 >>JAMES: Right, and in 2 Thessalonians, it says, he's 30:19 the one behind the system, and he's the one that wants exalt 30:21 himself above the throne of God, sitting the size of the 30:24 north, in the place of God. 30:25 That's what this guy's doing right here. 30:27 >>JEFFERY: James, I don't remember the last time I ever 30:31 went to 3 John. 30:32 [Laughter] 30:33 I forgot 3 John was in the bible. 30:36 >>TY: Just don't go to 4th John. 30:39 >>JAMES: 'Cause you'll be lost. 30:42 [Laughter] 30:43 So, the principle is already at work, remember, Acts 20. 30:46 The principle is already at work. 30:48 Well, what is the principle? 30:49 Well, we talked about it in a sense, doctrinally and 30:52 theologically, but it's deeper than that, it's simply the 30:55 exaltation of self. 30:56 >>TY: Loving preeminence. 30:57 >>JAMES: Loving preeminence, putting yourself in the place 30:59 of God. 31:00 Selfless love, when you're putting yourself in that 31:02 place. 31:03 And how does it manifest it? 31:05 In the way that we treat our brothers and our sisters, and 31:07 the way that we relate to those around us, that's how 31:09 it's manifested. 31:10 What does it lead to? 31:12 It leads to putting yourself in the place of God so that 31:15 now, everything around you is shaped around you being the 31:18 center rather than God being the center. 31:20 >>DAVID: You know what's so fascinating about that, love 31:23 all of that, you know, chapter 4 here, we've already 31:25 mentioned several times, this is steeped in Danielic 31:28 language. 31:29 >>JEFFERY: You're in chapter 2, verse 4. 31:31 >>DAVID: I'm in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, verse 31:33 4, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is 31:34 called God that is worshipped, so that he, as God, sits in 31:37 the temple of God showing himself that he is God. 31:38 So, that's Daniel 8, that's exalts, that's Daniel 7, 31:41 blasphemous words, that's prince of the hosts. 31:43 >>JAMES: Daniel 11:36, too. 31:45 >>DAVID: It's all of them, isn't it? 31:46 It's Daniel 7, it's Daniel 8, it's Daniel 11. 31:49 >>JEFFERY: It's Daniel. 31:50 >>DAVID: And here's the thing, if you look at, okay, so those 31:52 are the prophecies of Daniel. 31:55 You have these two like, driving narratives in the book 31:58 of Daniel. 31:59 You have Daniel chapter 3, which some of us might 32:01 remember, which is the where Nebuchadnezzar sets up a 32:03 statue, a statue on the plane of Dura, and he says, okay, 32:07 here's the deal, we're gonna play music and everybody's 32:09 gonna bow down to this statue, and if you don't, you will be 32:13 killed, you'll be thrown into the fiery furnace. 32:15 Okay, that is exactly where Christianity is gonna go. 32:17 That is a defining narrative. 32:21 So, you have the prophecies of Daniel, which are anticipating 32:23 this spirit, this anti-hesed spirit, this anti-covenantal 32:28 spirit that's gonna come in, and here's the story, this is 32:30 what that will look like. 32:31 People are gonna be told, you worship this image in a 32:33 certain way and if you don't, you'll be killed. 32:35 Okay, then you have Daniel 6, Daniel's praying, praying, 32:38 praying, praying, a decree comes from above, hey, we're 32:40 the ones who decide when you pray, to whom you pray, how 32:42 you pray, so, it's not just the prophecies of Daniel and 32:47 the stories are absent from the drive. 32:49 >>JEFFERY: They illustrate. 32:51 >>DAVID: They're driving in the same direction, saying, 32:53 people are gonna come to the position of such prominence 32:55 that they're gonna say, this is how you worship, and if you 32:58 don't worship like this, you'll be killed, and this is 33:00 how you pray, and if you don't pray like this, it will be on 33:02 pain of death or of imprisonment. 33:05 This is what's being described here. 33:08 >>JEFFERY: The prophecies frame, the stories add the 33:11 details. 33:12 >>JAMES: In fact, in Daniel 11:36, Paul's almost quoting, 33:14 listen to this, and the king shall do according to his 33:17 will, he will exalt himself, he will magnify himself above 33:20 every God, he will speak marvelous things against the 33:22 God of gods and he'll prosper and practice 'til the 33:24 indignation be accomplished for that is determined shall 33:27 be done. 33:28 It's almost like he's quoting Daniel 11 verse 36 in 33:30 2 Thessalonians. 33:32 >>TY: Almost? 33:32 >>JAMES: Yeah. 33:33 >>TY: He is. 33:34 He is referring to Daniel. 33:37 >>JAMES: He's referring to Daniel, but I'm specifically 33:39 thinking of Daniel 11:36, because that's covenant 33:41 language chapter right there. 33:43 Covenant, covenant, covenant, covenant, covenant. 33:45 >>DAVID: So, then, verse 5. 33:46 >>TY: You're back in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. 33:48 >>DAVID: This is the passage we're working through. 33:50 >>TY: Can I add one thing before you read it? 33:51 >>DAVID: Please, please, by all means. 33:52 >>TY: I heard somebody say this one time, I don't know 33:54 who said it, so I wrote it down while you guys were 33:55 talking, the point that James was making reminded me of 33:58 this. 33:59 There is many a man who would be God, but only one God who 34:03 would be man. 34:04 The idea that James was just calling attention to is that 34:10 you have this power that is described, or characterized by 34:15 human beings desiring preeminence, but then you have 34:19 the God that these people are trying to emulate, who's 34:25 actually of the exact opposite kind of character. 34:28 We're trying to go up, and the whole time, he's voluntarily 34:31 coming down. 34:33 >>DAVID: This is the washing of the disciple's feet. 34:35 >>JAMES: We've gotta talk about this just a little bit, 34:37 because the light bulb went on just recently. 34:39 You know how it is, you read the bible forever and you have 34:42 all these thoughts and all of a sudden, something clicks, 34:44 and I've read the text in Isaiah 14 over and over again 34:47 for years. 34:48 We've all read that text, right? 34:50 Isaiah 14:12-14, it talks about, you know, Lucifer, 34:53 basically, it's identifying what his goal is, to sit in 34:56 the sides of the north, in God's place, is that Isaiah 34:59 12? 35:00 Yeah, Isaiah 12. 35:01 >>TY: No, it's 14, verse 12. 35:03 >>JAMES: Okay, so notice this, how art thou fallen from 35:06 heaven, oh, Lucifer, son of the morning, how art thou cut 35:08 down in the ground which weakened the nations, for thou 35:10 has said in thine heart, I will descend into heave, I 35:13 will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit also 35:15 upon the mount of the congregation in the sights of 35:17 the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I 35:19 will be like the most high. 35:22 And from these verses, I think we get the impression that 35:28 because Satan is trying to be like the most high in sitting 35:33 in sides of the north, in the mount of the congregation, 35:36 that that's what the most high is like. 35:38 In other words, Satan has actually programmed us to 35:41 think that that's what God is like. 35:43 >>TY: To think hat God is self-exalting. 35:46 >>JAMES: And he completely, completely misunderstood what 35:50 God is like. 35:51 >>JEFFERY: So, that statement, really, I wanna be like the 35:53 most high is actually an incorrect statement. 35:56 If Lucifer really want to be like the most high, what is 36:00 the most high like? 36:03 >>TY: The progression of the passage is, I will exalt 36:07 myself, I will exalt myself, I will exalt myself, I'll be 36:10 like the God. 36:11 The devil himself is assuming that God operates on the 36:16 principle of self-exaltation and preeminence over others. 36:19 So, I want that position and God does the most amazing 36:23 thing imaginable. 36:24 He vacates it. 36:27 He comes down. 36:30 >>DAVID: He made himself of no reputation, taking the form of 36:32 a bond servant, he came in the likeness of men, being found 36:34 in the appearances of men, he humbled himself and became 36:36 obedient to the point of death, even the death of the 36:38 cross. 36:39 2 Thessalonians, or excuse me, Philippians 2. 36:42 So, he vacates the space and says, okay, you wanna be...? 36:48 >>TY: You're excited right now, Jeffrey. 36:51 >>JEFFERY: It's a great story. 36:53 You know what I mean? 36:56 It's just an incredible... 36:57 >>TY: It bears witness to the fact that it's true in that it 37:00 is completely contrary to every other narrative in 37:05 history and it's true to what we know ought to be true. 37:09 >>JAMES: In our own heart of hearts, we sense, we are drawn 37:12 to this. 37:14 Everything around us pushes us away, but we are drawn to this 37:15 in our own heart of hearts. 37:17 >>DAVID: Alistair McGrath, the you know, one of the best 37:20 known philosophers of Christianity, analytical... 37:22 >>JAMES: David, before you finish, give that to me, give 37:25 that to me. 37:26 >>DAVID: [Laughter] 37:27 He says, and I love quoting him on this, he says, 37:31 Christianity, he says this story, the biblical story, he 37:34 says, it's not only the most beautiful story ever told, he 37:37 says, it's the most beautiful story that could be told. 37:39 You can't imagine a better story. 37:41 You can't imagine a better reality than there is a God, 37:46 number one, number two, he's like Jesus, okay, that's it. 37:50 Come up with a better story, knock yourself out. 37:52 Tolstoy, Dusdiefski, go, right? 37:55 You're not gonna write a better story than that. 37:59 >>TY: No. 38:00 We have to take a break. 38:01 We don't want to, but we're going to. 38:03 [Music] 38:12 [Music] 38:14 Announcer: Digma videos are short, engaging messages 38:17 designed for opening up discussion with individuals 38:20 and groups regarding the character of God as well as 38:23 for your own personal spiritual growth. 38:26 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos, 38:29 call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 38:34 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 38:40 Once again, for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 38:43 videos, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 38:50 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 38:56 Simply ask for Digma DVD 1. 38:59 Simply ask for Digma DVD 1. 39:00 [Music] 39:05 >>TY: Man, we just ended that last segment on such a high 39:08 note, I can feel the excitement around the table 39:11 because we're all realizing, wait a minute, are we saying, 39:15 is the bible saying that the most powerful person in the 39:18 universe, God almighty has a character of humble, 39:24 self-sacrificing love and that's really what God looks 39:28 like in the final analysis? 39:31 And the thing in history that claims to be representing him, 39:36 the language that I haven't seen for a long time, in 39:39 3 John, I think it was, where John is describing what 39:43 Christianity looks like when it begins to go wrong, where 39:47 local people in churches desire preeminence. 39:51 That's just a micro chasm of the big system that desires 39:55 preeminence. 39:57 >>JEFFERY: And the big system is a micro chasm of the 39:59 controversy, the bigger controversy. 40:01 >>TY: We've got the truth and we'll tell you how it is and 40:03 if you don't comply, we're kill you. 40:05 That whole process of thought. 40:08 >>JAMES: I also think it's a micro chasm of the forces they 40:12 were up against. 40:14 Put yourself in Diotrephes place and try to understand 40:20 how he could do that. 40:21 Like... 40:22 >>JEFFERY: Remind us who that is. 40:24 >>JAMES: And therefore, wouldn't even receive John 40:28 himself, the only living disciple of Christ, you know, 40:31 on planet earth at that time, I mean, put yourself in that 40:34 place and just think about that, what kind of, these are 40:38 the facts that he's going against. 40:40 John, disciple, long-term, faithful, boiling pot of oil, 40:45 on the Isle of Patmos, whatever, 'cause he gets off 40:48 there toward the end of his life, I'm thinking this is the 40:50 end of his life. 40:51 Think of the kind of, I think, inward deception that we take 40:57 a hold of that would cause us to actually reject that kind 41:01 of person, that kind of Revelation, that kind of 41:04 witness. 41:05 In other words, this isn't just papacy, this isn't just, 41:08 it's us. 41:09 >>TY: James and I got that out of that passage. 41:12 I've never seen that, this is a local church member. 41:15 >>JAMES: Yeah, this is a local guy. 41:16 >>TY: A local church member. 41:18 >>JAMES: You don't have to be sitting as the pope, you don't 41:19 have to be sitting, you can just be the local guy. 41:23 >>TY: The head elder or not. 41:25 >>JAMES: And Christ says it this way, as you've treated 41:26 one of the least of these disciples, you've done it unto 41:27 me. 41:29 The way that we interact with just people, we can have that 41:31 same, because you've gotta understand, at this point, 41:34 John is actually, probably like an old guy that's walking 41:37 around with a cane and really needs help with everything he 41:39 does, you know what I'm saying? 41:41 >>JEFFERY: Can I piggyback on what you just said? 41:43 When we go back to 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 7, it 41:47 says, for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. 41:53 So, what you're saying is, we've been describing this 41:55 institution, this system, right? 41:58 That's gonna arise and here, it hasn't come yet. 42:02 But yet, Paul says, the spirit of it is here now. 42:05 >>TY: And people like this local guy who desires 42:08 preeminence. 42:09 People like any one of us or any local church situation. 42:13 >>JEFFERY: Which tells us that when we talk like this about 42:17 historical institutions and when we name them by name and 42:22 we call them out, we're not talking about the thing 42:26 itself, individuals, we're talking about a system that 42:29 was at work before the institution existed, which 42:34 tells us, it's a principle, not wrapped up in an 42:37 individual. 42:38 >>TY: I'm just overwhelmed with this insight. 42:40 A local guy wanting preeminence and that is the 42:43 beginning of the formation of the system, because what is a 42:46 system if it's not a bunch of individual, local people who 42:51 come together to create a system? 42:53 >>JAMES: Now, going back all the way to Eden and even to 42:55 heaven, it's the same principle. 42:57 So, in Eden, you have Adam and Eve. 42:59 They've got all this evidence of God, that's more than what 43:01 this guy has of John. 43:03 It's just like, awesome, and Satan comes and promises them 43:06 preeminence. 43:08 It's the same principle. 43:09 >>TY: Okay, we better trek through this passage. 43:11 >>DAVID: I was just about to say. 43:13 Chapter 2, verse 5, chapter 2, verse 5, 2 Thessalonians, do 43:17 you not remember when I was still with you, I told you 43:20 these things? 43:21 Now, one of the things that's interesting here and students 43:24 of scripture and scholars have noted that Paul seems to 43:28 become purposefully opaque here, sort of, hey, don't you 43:32 remember, I was with you, we talked about this, because 43:35 what's gonna happen next is a section of scripture in verses 43:39 6, 7, and 8, that are kind of like, what? 43:41 Because he's gonna start using pronouns really before he's 43:44 given us the antecedent to those pronouns, which is 43:47 unusual. 43:48 Normally, I'll say something like, oh, I saw Ty, he was at 43:51 the grocery store. 43:53 He, yeah, so, I'm gonna say, he, and you'd be saying, who 43:56 are we talking about here? 43:58 So, let's look at that. 43:59 Don't you remember when I was with you, I told you these 44:01 things? 44:02 The bit of, you know, there's something there, a little 44:04 opaque, verse 6, and now you know what is restraining, that 44:09 he may be revealed in his own time. 44:12 Something is restraining this from happening. 44:16 Remember, let's just go back and remember the trajectory of 44:18 thought. 44:19 Hey, you think the day of the Lord is coming, it's not 44:21 coming yet because a falling away has to come first ,and 44:24 then, this power's gonna come, exalt, we've been on that, and 44:27 then he says, but now you know, something is 44:29 restraining, something is preventing. 44:31 >>TY: Restraining and preventing what? 44:33 The falling away. 44:34 >>JEFFERY: Now, can you stop right there? 44:36 Open question, why does he say now you know what is 44:38 restraining? 44:39 What is he saying? 44:40 The community understands... 44:42 >>DAVID: No, I think he's saying in verse 5, don't you 44:44 remember when I was with you, we talked about these things 44:46 and now, you know. 44:48 >>TY: He may be deliberately being enigmatic because he's 44:49 writing this stuff out and he's saying, hey, remember in 44:52 our conversations, wink, nod, you know what we're talking 44:55 about here, right? 44:56 >>DAVID: That's what I mean by opaque. 44:58 He's purposefully because, as we're gonna see here, the 45:01 power that he's fingering is wrong. 45:03 He can't just come right out and say, hey, this is what's 45:06 gonna happen. 45:06 >>JAMES: The one under whom he's now living. 45:09 >>DAVID: Yeah, you can't put that in writing and send it to 45:11 these churches. 45:12 >>TY: So, he says, hey, remember that conversation 45:14 that we had, wink, nod. 45:15 Yeah, he's speaking in riddles on paper so that he's not 45:18 exposed. 45:20 >>DAVID: And endangering those to whom he's writing or 45:21 himself. 45:23 So, verse 6, that something is restraining that he may be 45:26 revealed in his own time. 45:28 Something is preventing this power, this man of sin, this 45:32 exalting power, preeminent power, verse 7, for the 45:37 mystery of lawlessness is already at work. 45:40 Do we wanna say? 45:41 I mean, the mystery of lawlessness, this is what you 45:43 were getting at, Jeffrey, it's what we're talking about with 45:45 Dystrophies, this spirit that's gonna lead to this 45:49 ediphus, this grand ediphus, that's already in the air. 45:51 >>JAMES: Just to connect it quickly, and that is 45:54 lawlessness, the law is a transcript of God's character. 45:57 This mystery, this thing that's working against the 46:00 character of God, the love of God, the selfless giving. 46:03 I mean, that's the direction we're going. 46:05 >>TY: Well, that would parallel with Daniel saying of 46:09 this same power that he will think to change the times and 46:12 laws of the most high, and throughout the Old Testament, 46:16 we didn't call attention to this, but I think we should 46:18 now, the word covenant repeatedly in the Old 46:21 Testament is equivalent to the law. 46:23 >>JAMES: And speaking against the most high, words against 46:28 the most high, in other words, misrepresenting the character 46:30 of the most high. 46:31 Because that's basically what the principle is that Satan is 46:33 doing, in Isaiah 14, he's like, totally misrepresented 46:36 God. 46:37 We get a false picture of God because we just assume, I'm 46:40 just gonna throw this out, oh, Satan wants to sit in the 46:42 place of God. 46:43 He can't sit in the place of God, only God can sit in that 46:44 place. 46:45 God's the one that needs that, but what we've missed, 46:48 perhaps, is the idea that sitting in the place of God, 46:50 being in the center is not really a representation or a 46:53 picture of God. 46:55 >>TY: Yeah, God doesn't even, he's not even jealous, he 46:57 doesn't consider it robbery to be, he's not holding onto the 47:02 position. 47:03 >>DAVID: When nobody's gonna wash the feet, nobody's 47:06 willing to do it, it's the lowest, most servile task, 47:09 Jesus is like, oh, I'll do that. 47:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm happy to. 47:13 >>TY: The first sign that you're not God is that you're 47:16 not God is that you wanna be. 47:18 [Laughter] 47:20 >>DAVID: So, the rest of our 7 there, and this is where it 47:22 gets kind of interesting, I'm reading New King James, I 47:24 think most of us here today have either King James or New 47:25 King James. 47:26 My translation says, only he who now restrains will do so 47:29 until he is taken out of the way. 47:31 Now, this is where we have an antecedent, this is where we 47:34 have a pronoun with no antecedent, right? 47:36 He who restrains will do so until he is taken out of the 47:39 way. 47:40 There's been no mention of the restrainer up 'til this point. 47:43 Now, in my translation, New King James, it says capital 47:47 He, only He, capital H, who now restrains will do so 47:51 until, capital H, He is taken out of the way. 47:54 Now, you can look in the marginal reference and it 47:56 says, or, lowercase he. 47:59 And the reason for that is, is that there has been debate, 48:02 who is this? 48:03 Who is the restrainer? 48:04 And one of the sort of prevailing ideas, so prevalent 48:06 that the translators were like, maybe it's the Holy 48:08 Spirit? 48:10 God is restraining, God is not allowing this anti-Christian 48:13 power to come forward. 48:14 Now, there's nothing in the Greek text that suggests that 48:17 this is capital H He. 48:19 They're just guessing, they don't know. 48:21 So, this is interesting because now we have that 48:23 opacity that we were talking about that where Paul's like 48:25 hey, wink, wink, nod, nod, the restrainer will restrain until 48:28 he's no longer restraining and then this power will come and 48:31 the falling away will take place. 48:33 And commentators historically have looked at this and said, 48:35 what? 48:38 And everything from the Holy Spirit as the He to God as the 48:42 He that's restraining, but I'm gonna put forward the idea 48:46 here, it's actually the very thing that was depicted in 48:50 Daniel 2, 7, 11, it's the thing that restrains, it 48:56 doesn't allow the little horn to emerge, is the existence of 49:00 the fourth kingdom, it's pagan Rome. 49:03 Unless and until imperial Rome is moved off the scene, you 49:07 cannot have the power vacuum into which the little horn 49:10 emerges. 49:11 He's restraining, he's preventing. 49:14 But when he's taken off the scene, which we described AD 49:16 476, end of the fifth century, right, now, okay, 49:20 well, what's the power? 49:21 Well, the power that steps into that gap is the bishop of 49:26 Rome at the head of the imperial capital and in just a 49:29 century or two, you're gonna have the holy Roman empire. 49:33 So, the restraining power is actually the political 49:37 strength and the political homogeneity of pagan Rome. 49:41 Once that's gone, there's no more restraint on this thing 49:44 coming forward. 49:45 But here's the thing, if you're not rooted in Daniel, 49:48 if you're not rooted in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, you will say, oh, 49:53 capital He? 49:54 Is this the Holy Spirit, who is this? 49:56 But if you're in Daniel, this is, I'm gonna go out on a limb 49:59 and say, it's not even difficult. 50:01 It's not hard to understand at all. 50:04 >>TY: He's essentially saying, there is a succession of 50:09 powers in Daniel and when you come to Paul, Paul is ignoring 50:13 Babylon, ignoring Medo-Persia, ignoring Greece, and he's just 50:18 dealing with the final two powers. 50:22 >>JEFFERY: Because he's writing where he's at. 50:24 Daniel writes Babylon because that's where he's at. 50:26 Paul writes Rome, that's where he's at. 50:29 >>TY: So, Paul is essentially saying, we are going to 50:33 witness a transition from Roman empire to Roman church. 50:40 >>DAVID: To holy Roman empire or Roman church. 50:43 >>TY: Pagan Roman empire, papal Roman empire, and it's 50:46 the pagan Roman empire that is occupying the position and 50:50 thereby restraining the papacy from forming, and as soon as 50:55 Rome winds down through political implosion, there's 51:02 gonna be a power vacuum and the papacy's going to occupy 51:06 that position and it will be, at that point that the grand 51:10 masquerade of history takes place where a Christian power 51:17 is not actual Christianity. 51:20 >>JAMES: Now, one of the best evidences of this is in the 51:23 text. 51:24 I know people are probably thinking, well, how do you 51:26 know that for sure? 51:27 Well, just look at this, we're talking about fifth century 51:31 right now, right? 51:32 That transition. 51:33 But look at the text in verse 8, and then shall the wicked 51:36 be revealed whom the Lord shall consume from the spirit 51:40 of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his 51:43 coming. 51:44 Do you see the evidence for it right here? 51:47 >>TY: Tell us. 51:47 >>DAVID: I'm waiting. 51:49 >>JAMES: Okay, if this power that we're talking about, this 51:50 transition that we're talking about now took place in the 51:53 fifth century, verse 8 tells us that it will continue all 51:58 the way down until the second coming of Christ. 52:01 So, whatever power it is that's transitioned out of 52:04 pagan Rome is going to continue century after century 52:08 after century after century. 52:10 >>DAVID: Which is what you see in Daniel 2, the iron goes 52:12 right to the end, Daniel 7, the horn goes right to the 52:14 end. 52:15 >>JEFFERY: That's the best thing you've said all day. 52:17 >>TY: [Laughter] 52:19 >>JAMES: I don't know whether to say thanks or... 52:20 >>DAVID: [Laughter] 52:22 Everything you said up to that point didn't make any 52:23 sense, but that's a great point. 52:25 >>JAMES: Which also allows 2 Thessalonians to connect right 52:29 up with Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11. 52:31 >>TY: By the way, we're not alone in this interpretation. 52:35 >>JAMES: No, there's four of us. 52:36 >>TY: [Laughter] 52:38 No, the four of us are not alone in this interpretation, 52:40 this is a school of prophetic interpretation that people 52:46 like Martin Luther and John Calvin and Paul, yeah. 52:50 Well, it's usually referred to as the historicist train of 52:57 biblical, prophetic interpretation as opposed to 53:00 the pretorist or the futurist. 53:03 >>JEFFERY: Which used to be the norm, right? 53:06 Used to be the norm. 53:08 >>TY: Luther and Calvin believed, I mean, the whole 53:10 Protestant reformation was premised on the ah-hah moment, 53:15 that wait a minute, the church is not the church. 53:19 >>DAVID: The church is the great apostasy according to 53:22 Daniel and by Paul. 53:23 >>TY: Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, all these guys. 53:26 >>DAVID: You don't get, okay, so, we're not gonna get to the 53:29 reformation 'til the time of Wycliffe and Luther and later, 53:32 Calvin, 'til the 13th, 14th, 15th centuries. 53:35 So, we got a ways to go. 53:36 How do we get to where we are here in the 3rd, 4th, 5th 53:41 century, that's 1,000 years of intervening period, and here's 53:45 a very important point. 53:47 We talked about those sort of emerging centers of Christian 53:50 influence. 53:51 You had the Jerusalem center and then the Roman center, 53:53 Constantinople and Alexandria. 53:55 Well, one of the most interesting things that 53:57 happens in the period of the fourth century, early fourth 54:00 century is when Constantine moves the seat of his empire 54:03 to Constantinople, the City of Constantine. 54:06 Which, if you look at a map of the spread of Christianity, 54:09 Christianity spread from Jerusalem to the north and the 54:12 west, right, not primarily east, even today, we talk 54:15 about Christian Europe. 54:17 Right, so the spread was like this. 54:18 Now you just took the seat of the empire, Rome, right in the 54:20 middle of the spread of Christianity from Jerusalem to 54:23 the north and the west and you just moved it 1,000 miles to 54:26 the east. 54:27 Now, you have a single power left. 54:29 After 476, dissolution of western Rome. 54:32 Now, you have a single power left. 54:33 After 476, dissolution of western Rome. 54:34 Of those sort of competing centers of Christian 54:38 influence, Rome, for a variety of reasons, will take, they 54:43 will fill the vacuum and have the ascendency over the 54:46 Alexandrian interpretation of Christianity, over the 54:48 Jerusalem flavor of Christianity. 54:51 Rome will emerge. 54:52 But it happens incrementally. 54:54 It's not like you just blinked, it's not like you 54:56 just closed your eyes and there's a pope, no. 54:58 Incrementally moving into the period of the dark ages, which 55:02 I guess we'll get into, you open your eyes, Luther, 55:08 Wycliffe, others, oh. 55:09 Oh, okay, here we are then. 55:15 But until they have that almost 1,000 years of 55:17 historical perspective to look back and they had, as you 55:20 called it, the ah-hah moment. 55:21 >>TY: Realizing that there is what I referred to a moment 55:27 ago as a grand masquerade taking place. 55:29 >>DAVID: The way that you said that, I love it, the thing 55:31 that says it is the thing is not the thing, it's some other 55:34 thing. 55:35 I love that. 55:36 >>TY: That's right. 55:37 And when we say all of these things that we're saying right 55:41 now, we wanna be reminded of the fact that human beings, 55:44 through this whole process, are navigating through this 55:49 history and there are just godly, wonderful people all 55:53 along in the process, from start to finish, and we're 55:56 dealing here with what the bible is fingering as an 55:59 institution that occupies a position in which the kingdom 56:05 of God is under threat while claiming to represent the 56:09 kingdom of God. 56:10 I can't wait until the next session. 56:12 [Music] 56:17 蛂usic] |
Revised 2018-01-17