[Music]
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>>TY: Alright, guys, session
number three in the Protestant
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reformation series.
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We've come from a background
that's vitally necessary.
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A foundation that we've laid.
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We haven't jumped right
into the Protestant reformation
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because reformation implies
that there's something that's
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gone before that's created
a state of affairs that makes
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reformation necessary.
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So, in session one, we looked
at what we called Hebrew roots
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Christianity.
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That's just, we're just
looking for language to wrap
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around a basic idea, and
that is what the New Testament
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refers to repeatedly as the
law and the prophets, the law
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and the prophets.
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Moses and the prophetic
writings of all the other
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prophets besides Moses.
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The Old Testament constitutes
a way of relating to God
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because of the way that
God's relating to human beings.
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It's reciprocal.
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And that defines the character
of God for us, that manner of
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relationship.
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And the key word that we
discovered to describe the
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relationship between God
and human beings is the word
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covenant and that word
just means a commitment made and
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then, hopefully, a
returning commitment.
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God's commitment to human
beings is unbroken and stable
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and faithful.
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The whole point of the story
of scripture, the whole point
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of the narrative is that
God is eliciting a similarly
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positive response from
human beings to reciprocate his
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faithfulness.
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That's what we're
referring to as Hebrew thought.
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But then, we moved on, and
in session two, we began to
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discover in Daniel, chapter 7,
8, 9, and 11, that there would
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be, in history, an attack
on the very thing that defines
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who God is, covenant.
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So, in chapter 7 of Daniel,
we saw that there's a power, a
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kingdom, a system that
would arise in the process of
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unfolding empires that would
begin to align itself against
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the covenant kingdom of God.
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God operates by covenant,
this power is opposed to the
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covenant.
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That's the book of
Daniel in a nutshell.
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Alright?
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Now, in this third
session, we're going to give a
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provocative title to this
discussion that's a biblical
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title, we didn't make
these words up, we're gonna call
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this discussion around the
table, the great falling away,
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and it's based on a passage of
scripture, that we're going to
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spend the majority of our time
just cracking into and finding
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out what this is about,
it's 2 Thessalonians chapter 2,
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verses 1-8.
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verses 1-8.
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This passage is a little
bit complex and so, I think we
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should begin by just reading
it word for word, straight
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through.
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>>JEFFERY: We're also gonna
go to Acts, right, later on?
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>>TY: Yeah, if you want
to, yeah, if you want to.
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But Jeffrey, would you just
read the passage, verses 1-8,
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2 Thessalonians
chapter 2, verses 1-8.
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I think we just need the
whole passage in front of us.
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>>JEFFERY: Now, brethren,
concerning the coming of our
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Lord Jesus Christ and our
gathering together to him, we
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ask you, not to be soon shaken
in mind or troubled, either by
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spirit or by word or by
letter, as if from us, as
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though the day
of Christ had come.
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Let no one deceive you by
any means, for that day will not
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come unless the falling
away comes first, and the man of
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sin is revealed, the son
of perdition, who opposes and
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exalts himself above all
that is called God or that is
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worshiped, so that he sits
as God in the temple of God,
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showing himself that he is God.
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Do you not remember that
when I was still with you I told
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you these things?
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And now you know what is
restraining, that he may be
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revealed in his own time.
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For the mystery of lawlessness
is already at work, only he
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who now restrains will do
so until he is taken out of the
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way.
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And then the lawless one
will be revealed, whom the Lord
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will consume with the breath
of his mouth and destroy with
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the brightness of his coming.
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>>TY: That's quite a passage.
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Some of it's pretty
obvious language that's easy to
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understand, but some of that
language is very strange and
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hard to understand.
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I guess let's just begin
with the obvious parts of the
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passage.
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I mean, in summary, isn't Paul
saying, hey, don't let anyone
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lead you to believe that
the second coming of Jesus has
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already occurred on some
spiritual plane somewhere, you
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know, in some way, the Messiah
hasn't returned, because that
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is a prominent promise
of the New Testament, right?
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Jesus is going to retune.
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And Paul is saying, he
hasn't returned, and in fact, he
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won't return until a
certain development in history
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unfolds.
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>>JEFFERY: So, I think,
right there, that's fascinating
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because it goes very well
with what we were discussing in
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Daniel 7 and 8 where we
were talking about historical
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developments
within Christianity.
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So, here, there's a
falling away, there's obviously
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something we're supposed to
be looking for, something we're
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supposed to be aware that's
happening within Christianity,
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and again, I know I've said
this already, but the emphasis
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in verse 3 is
attention to a man.
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Alright, so, a man enters into
the picture that now begins to
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blur or to distract from God,
and so, just to repeat what I
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said earlier that I think the
bigger picture here has to do
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with man gravitating toward
the position of God within the
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system.
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>>DAVID: That's the
whole point of the passage.
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So, just to set what, for me,
is a, just to try and set for
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what, man, that
does not wanna come out.
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Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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So, there's something in
here that I find fascinating and
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that is that in the sort
of feel of the letters that we
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have of Paul to the
Thessalonians, in the first
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letter to the Thessalonians
in chapter 4, we have that
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beautiful passage there where
Paul says, you know, brethren,
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I don't want you to be
ignorant concerning those that
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have fallen asleep and then,
he goes through that sort of
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linear, so, I think, in its
historical context, it's quite
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interesting, this is clearly
people dying and the seemingly
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delayed return of the
Lord was a point of particular
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sensitivity to the
church in Thessalonica, right?
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They're like, who's coming?
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Where is he?
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What's going on?
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And Paul is
emphatic on this point.
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If somebody writes you a
letter, if somebody says that
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they're speaking on our
behalf, if somebody, trust me
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on this.
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That day, the day of the Lord,
will not come until something
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comes first.
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He's just as emphatic as
can be, and we've seen that in
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Paul's writing, he can be, you
know, if anybody preaches any
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gospel to you other than what
I'm preaching, let them be a
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curse.
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This is that same level of
being emphatic and absolute.
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>>JAMES: I think also there's
something else here, and that
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is
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-- >>DAVID: You just cut me
off when I was gonna make my
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point.
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>>JAMES: Say it,
say it, say it, say it.
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>>DAVID: Which, for me, the
question I wonder is, how does
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Paul know that?
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How can Paul be so
absolutely emphatic?
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That is not, no, no, no,
no, Jesus isn't coming next
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Thursday.
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How do you know that?
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Is it because God gave
him some prophetic insight?
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No, it's based on what we
talked about the last time.
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He was grounded in those
very Danielic passages, 7, 8, 9,
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11, so he can say, no, no,
no, no, just go back and look at
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the timeline.
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We'll get into that
more, but that was my thinking.
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>>JAMES: And I think something
else is here, too, that's
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really interesting, so it's
1 Thessalonians 4, where you
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were building on, he says
here, and I specifically think
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verse 17, then, talking about
the second coming of Christ,
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then we which
are alive and remain.
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Okay.
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It's so significant for
us, when we study the bible, to
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realize that most of
the heresy, most of the
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misunderstanding that people,
that develop religious strains
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and strings comes from
just misreading the bible.
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So, Paul has sent a letter
to the Thessalonians and the
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letter's basically saying,
hey, you know, don't worry
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about these people that
are dying, they're resting,
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they're sleeping in me
and those that are asleep and
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those of us that
remain until Jesus comes.
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And the Thessalonians, if
you look here in verse 2 of 2
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Thessalonians chapter 2,
it says that ye be not soon
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shaken in mind or trouble,
neither by spirit nor by word,
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nor by letter, as from us.
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They misunderstood
what Paul was saying.
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So, Paul's actually writing
them a letter to clarify their
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misunderstanding
of his first letter.
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He's saying to them, now,
don't be shaken about this
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letter, even the one from us,
because, and then, he's added,
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because there's gonna
be a falling away from it.
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I know you thought maybe what
I was saying was that some of
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us were gonna be alive when
Jesus comes, but no, no, no,
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no, that's not gonna happen.
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So, he's adding now, he's
clarifying now what he wrote
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in the first letter because
they misunderstood what he
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said in the first letter.
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This is really good because,
as you go through the bible,
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you see this
happening over and over again.
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This is one of the reasons
why I think God speaks in
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prophetic cycles, why we have
a Daniel 7 added to Daniel 2
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and a Daniel 8 added to Daniel
7 and a Daniel 11 added to
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Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 and
Daniel 2, and a Matthew that
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is followed by a Mark
that's followed by a Luke that's
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followed by a John.
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If you know what I'm saying.
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There are these times in
the bible when you communicate
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something, you know
how communication is.
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It's, it can be complicated,
it can be difficult.
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It can be misunderstood.
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So, Paul is actually writing
to the Thessalonians and he's
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saying, he's saying, listen,
listen, listen, I know you
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might've got this idea from
what I said, and it seems like
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you can get that idea, that
some of us are gonna be alive
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when, but, let me explain
further that there's gonna be
00:10:31.33\00:10:35.63
this, and then, he goes
back and of course, he's basing
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this on the
prophecies of Daniel.
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There's gonna be this apothacy
that's gonna take place before
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Jesus actually comes.
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>>JEFFERY: See, I read that
different, I read verse 2, I
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read it completely
differently, as if from us, is
00:10:45.47\00:10:49.18
the emphasis, so I read,
Paul is warning them that other
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people, they're getting
conflicting messages from
00:10:52.48\00:10:55.45
others, other voices, and he's
saying, don't listen to those
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messages as if they came
from us, but I think what's
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interesting is verse 5, do
you not remember that when I was
00:11:01.49\00:11:04.93
still with you, I
told you these things?
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So, it just seems like this
was a thing that the apostles
00:11:07.96\00:11:10.53
kept
reiterating to the churches.
00:11:10.53\00:11:12.93
There's gonna be a
falling away, there's gonna be a
00:11:12.93\00:11:15.07
falling away.
00:11:15.07\00:11:16.37
>>TY: That shows up in
Acts chapter 20 as well.
00:11:16.37\00:11:19.07
>>JEFFERY: With tears, he says.
00:11:19.07\00:11:20.91
>>TY: For 3 years, I told
you over and over again, let's
00:11:20.91\00:11:23.61
read that passage,
since we mentioned it.
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>>DAVID: Acts 20.
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>>TY: Acts 20, yeah.
00:11:27.68\00:11:28.92
>>DAVID:
Beginning in, probably 27?
00:11:28.92\00:11:31.19
>>DAVID:
Beginning in, probably 27?
00:11:31.19\00:11:31.85
Yeah, I've got it.
00:11:35.89\00:11:38.19
Oh, it actually begins in...
00:11:38.19\00:11:39.23
>>TY: 29, I think.
00:11:39.23\00:11:40.80
>>DAVID: Well, you can start
in 27, you can start in 29, so
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I'll just...
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>>JEFFERY: Well, 31 is the
text that we were referring
00:11:46.17\00:11:48.97
to, 31 is for 3
years I told you.
00:11:48.97\00:11:51.54
>>DAVID: Okay, true enough,
but I just love, go back to
00:11:51.54\00:11:55.01
say, 28, because it tells
you who he's speaking to, he's
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speaking to the leaders of
the church, the elders of the
00:11:57.01\00:11:59.58
church in Ephesus, right?
00:11:59.58\00:12:01.38
Acts 20:28.
00:12:01.38\00:12:02.42
Therefore take heed to
yourselves and to all the
00:12:02.42\00:12:04.39
flock, over which the Holy
Spirit has made you overseers,
00:12:04.39\00:12:07.22
to shepherd the church of
God which He purchased with His
00:12:07.22\00:12:09.22
own blood.
00:12:09.22\00:12:10.29
29, for I know this,
there's that certainty again.
00:12:10.29\00:12:12.96
That's very similar to what we
just saw in 2 Thessalonians 2.
00:12:12.96\00:12:16.13
That will not
happen until this happens.
00:12:16.13\00:12:18.97
For I know this, that after
my departure savage wolves will
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come in among you,
not sparing the flock.
00:12:22.27\00:12:24.64
Oh, wow, okay,
that sounds dangerous.
00:12:24.64\00:12:26.64
Thirty, also from among
yourselves men will rise up,
00:12:26.64\00:12:29.44
speaking perverse things, to
draw away the disciples after
00:12:29.44\00:12:31.85
themselves.
00:12:31.85\00:12:33.08
Therefore watch, and remember
that for three years I did not
00:12:33.08\00:12:36.22
cease to warn everyone
night and day with tears.
00:12:36.22\00:12:38.55
To me, what's so singularly
significant about this passage
00:12:38.55\00:12:42.82
is that Paul is speaking
to religious leaders and he
00:12:42.82\00:12:44.83
doesn't just say there
will be an external, you know,
00:12:44.83\00:12:48.23
persecution, there'll be an
external, you know, savagery
00:12:48.23\00:12:51.03
by wolves out there, he says,
from among us, from among your
00:12:51.03\00:12:55.94
own selves, men will rise
up, speaking perverse things to
00:12:55.94\00:12:59.21
draw away disciples.
00:12:59.21\00:13:00.51
And he uses the
analogy of wolves.
00:13:00.51\00:13:02.51
Well, Jesus had already told
us that when these wolves come
00:13:02.51\00:13:04.51
in, they don't
always look like wolves.
00:13:04.51\00:13:07.12
>>TY: They're in
sheep's clothing sometimes.
00:13:07.12\00:13:09.12
>>DAVID: And so, apparently,
central to Paul's basic
00:13:09.12\00:13:13.05
framework of what is going
to happen after his departure in
00:13:13.05\00:13:17.66
the, you know, not too
far distant days is a grievous
00:13:17.66\00:13:22.00
departure.
00:13:22.00\00:13:23.16
Perverse things, perverse
words, being spoken that will
00:13:23.16\00:13:27.67
savage the flock, that will,
well, where's he getting this
00:13:27.67\00:13:30.47
from?
00:13:30.47\00:13:31.47
Where's this coming from?
00:13:31.47\00:13:32.47
He's getting it from Daniel.
00:13:32.47\00:13:33.48
>>TY: Which was our
previous discussion.
00:13:33.48\00:13:35.48
Do you find it interesting
that he says that they will
00:13:35.48\00:13:38.95
arise, speaking perverse things.
00:13:38.95\00:13:42.02
The word perverse literally
has reference to taking
00:13:42.02\00:13:47.66
something that is good and
misrepresenting it or turning
00:13:47.66\00:13:54.46
it, corrupting it, right?
00:13:54.46\00:13:55.56
So, it's not a complete
replacement, it's not removing
00:13:55.56\00:14:01.00
something and
putting something else there.
00:14:01.00\00:14:03.00
It's this thing is
morphing into something else.
00:14:03.00\00:14:06.17
>>DAVID: Yeah,
that's a great point.
00:14:06.17\00:14:08.18
You have to have a genuine,
beautiful article in order to
00:14:08.18\00:14:11.08
pervert it.
00:14:11.08\00:14:12.21
>>JAMES: Well, that's the
point I was making here in 2
00:14:12.21\00:14:14.18
Thessalonians because
Jeffrey was saying, I think,
00:14:14.18\00:14:16.52
correctly, that the letter
wasn't really from Paul, but
00:14:16.52\00:14:19.32
they were using what Paul
had said to teach something that
00:14:19.32\00:14:22.36
was being perverted.
00:14:22.36\00:14:23.56
Well, Paul said that some of
us were gonna be alive when he
00:14:23.56\00:14:25.86
comes.
00:14:25.86\00:14:27.03
And so, they're building on
that, and they're perverting
00:14:27.03\00:14:28.83
what Paul has already stated.
00:14:28.83\00:14:30.97
>>TY: And maybe there were
those, it seems like what Paul
00:14:30.97\00:14:35.17
was saying is that there
were those who were saying that
00:14:35.17\00:14:38.01
Jesus had already come.
00:14:38.01\00:14:40.34
So, I think there was, at that
time, a form of mysticism or
00:14:40.34\00:14:46.72
Gnosticism in which some
people were saying that the
00:14:46.72\00:14:51.22
second coming of Jesus
has occurred in our hearts for
00:14:51.22\00:14:55.12
some of us and if you don't
have it, it's a personalized
00:14:55.12\00:14:58.43
second coming rather than a
historical event, a universal
00:14:58.43\00:15:02.50
historical event.
00:15:02.50\00:15:05.67
>>DAVID: Jesus had,
while we're just adding other
00:15:05.67\00:15:07.24
passages to bear here, you
know, Jesus had in passages
00:15:07.24\00:15:11.34
like Matthew 24, Luke 21, John
16, Jesus had alluded to the
00:15:11.34\00:15:14.98
fact that a difficult time
was yet future for the church.
00:15:14.98\00:15:18.65
Of course, that is going to
be the centerpiece for that in
00:15:18.65\00:15:22.05
Jesus' time, or shortly after,
it's gonna be the destruction
00:15:22.05\00:15:24.32
of Jerusalem.
00:15:24.32\00:15:25.32
By the fourth beast, right?
00:15:25.32\00:15:27.39
By Rome.
00:15:27.39\00:15:28.56
So, Jesus is saying things
like, there's gonna be a time
00:15:28.56\00:15:32.03
of trouble and it's gonna
be difficult and if those days
00:15:32.03\00:15:35.00
weren't shortened, then the
elect wouldn't be saved, and
00:15:35.00\00:15:37.00
there's gonna be you know,
the love of many will wax cold,
00:15:37.00\00:15:39.00
and in another place, he says,
people are gonna kill you and
00:15:39.00\00:15:41.70
think they're
doing God a service.
00:15:41.70\00:15:44.17
So, it would be safe to
say that neither Paul nor Jesus
00:15:44.17\00:15:48.08
nor John in Revelation as
we saw in our last Table Talk
00:15:48.08\00:15:50.45
series, had a particularly
rosy or optimistic view about
00:15:50.45\00:15:54.62
the coming centuries.
00:15:54.62\00:15:55.78
Which, we don't have to ask
Jesus where he got that idea
00:15:55.78\00:16:00.16
from.
00:16:00.16\00:16:01.12
He says it, in Matthew
chapter 24 and verse 15.
00:16:01.12\00:16:03.53
When you see the abomination
of desolation, that language
00:16:03.53\00:16:06.16
is straight out of
Daniel, spoken of by Daniel the
00:16:06.16\00:16:08.53
prophet, stand in the
holy place, you know, let those
00:16:08.53\00:16:11.03
that are in Judea
flee to the mount.
00:16:11.03\00:16:13.03
So, Jesus, we don't have to
say, him, where did Jesus get
00:16:13.03\00:16:15.24
this from?
00:16:15.24\00:16:16.24
He's telling us.
00:16:16.24\00:16:17.24
I got this from Daniel.
00:16:17.24\00:16:18.27
And we don't have to,
even with the text here in 2
00:16:18.27\00:16:21.11
Thessalonians that we'll get
back to in a second, there are
00:16:21.11\00:16:23.11
internal indicators,
Paul, where are you getting this
00:16:23.11\00:16:25.75
from?
00:16:25.75\00:16:26.75
It's right there.
00:16:26.75\00:16:27.75
From Daniel.
00:16:27.75\00:16:28.85
So, to me, going back to
something that we ended on our
00:16:28.85\00:16:30.85
last session, the shape
of the trajectory of the
00:16:30.85\00:16:36.66
post-apostolic Christian world
is what we see, having as we
00:16:36.66\00:16:40.56
do now the luxury of living
years and years, centuries
00:16:40.56\00:16:43.67
after the events described.
00:16:43.67\00:16:46.43
It's just amazing that
what was foretold is what has
00:16:46.43\00:16:49.34
happened.
00:16:49.34\00:16:50.34
And we can see it.
00:16:50.34\00:16:51.41
>>JEFFERY: I had a
question, but were you gonna say
00:16:51.41\00:16:53.34
something?
00:16:53.34\00:16:54.34
>>TY: No.
00:16:54.34\00:16:55.41
>>JEFFERY: I was gonna
ask, what is at stake in not
00:16:55.41\00:16:57.35
understanding that
process of falling away?
00:16:57.35\00:17:01.38
Like, I'm thinking, so
what, Paul's concerned that they
00:17:01.38\00:17:04.19
don't understand, that they're
not aware that this process,
00:17:04.19\00:17:07.09
and I'm thinking now, down
to our day, what is at stake?
00:17:07.09\00:17:10.26
What's the danger?
00:17:10.26\00:17:11.33
What's the problem with
not having this framework in
00:17:11.33\00:17:16.67
through the
career of Christianity?
00:17:16.67\00:17:18.67
>>DAVID: There would be many.
00:17:18.67\00:17:19.87
>>JEFFERY: Well, I think, I
wonder if one of those dangers
00:17:19.87\00:17:23.37
would be that now, we would
attribute the things that have
00:17:23.37\00:17:28.74
happened to Christianity to
Jesus or to what Christianity
00:17:28.74\00:17:33.62
actually is like.
00:17:33.62\00:17:34.62
You get what I'm saying?
00:17:34.62\00:17:36.42
Of course, I'm saying, this
enables us to distinguish and
00:17:36.42\00:17:42.16
to distance ourselves
from things Christian but not
00:17:42.16\00:17:46.86
Christian, right?
00:17:46.86\00:17:49.03
>>DAVID: Part of Christiandom.
00:17:49.03\00:17:50.20
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, from the
abuse of, because without this
00:17:50.20\00:17:53.80
concept, then we and anybody
in the world would look and
00:17:53.80\00:17:57.91
say, Christianity is a joke,
Christianity has some serious
00:17:57.91\00:18:03.01
dirty laundry.
00:18:03.01\00:18:04.15
>>DAVID: It's violent,
it's political, it's coercive.
00:18:04.15\00:18:06.01
>>JEFFERY: Right, and so,
this framework, I think is
00:18:06.01\00:18:08.12
extremely important
because it allows us to say, not
00:18:08.12\00:18:12.05
everything that has taken
place in the name of Christ is
00:18:12.05\00:18:16.62
actually Christian.
00:18:16.62\00:18:19.63
actually Christian.
00:18:19.63\00:18:20.46
So, this has huge contemporary
significance is my point.
00:18:20.83\00:18:25.83
>>TY: And in fact, that's
what's happened in history is
00:18:25.83\00:18:29.77
people have looked at the
unfolding of history and the
00:18:29.77\00:18:35.14
thing that is generally
identified as the Christian
00:18:35.14\00:18:39.61
church is the very thing
that this prophecy and Daniel's
00:18:39.61\00:18:44.02
prophecy is
saying actually isn't.
00:18:44.02\00:18:46.76
The thing that everybody
identifies as the thing is not
00:18:46.76\00:18:51.13
really the thing.
00:18:51.13\00:18:52.29
>>JEFFERY: So, when people
say, how could you believe in
00:18:52.29\00:18:56.36
that religion?
00:18:56.36\00:18:57.93
Look at the record of the
wars, of the inquisition, of
00:18:57.93\00:19:01.67
the crusades, we simply
basically say, I don't, and
00:19:01.67\00:19:05.91
better yet, neither does Jesus.
00:19:05.91\00:19:08.01
>>JAMES: There's
an explanation for it.
00:19:08.01\00:19:10.01
>>DAVID: And that was the
foretold, that was foretold.
00:19:10.01\00:19:13.35
>>JEFFERY: I'm not surprised
because we were told that
00:19:13.35\00:19:15.78
would be the case.
00:19:15.78\00:19:16.92
>>DAVID: Another point
about what you're saying there,
00:19:16.92\00:19:18.89
Jeffrey, another why does
it matter is this gives us a
00:19:18.89\00:19:22.02
sense of where we are, this
gives us a sense of location
00:19:22.02\00:19:25.83
in history in
the stream of time.
00:19:25.83\00:19:27.83
Where are we?
00:19:27.83\00:19:28.80
Right?
00:19:28.80\00:19:29.80
We are here, we're
in that falling away.
00:19:29.80\00:19:31.80
Well, now, we're post, maybe
we'll get into that later, but
00:19:31.80\00:19:34.17
we're, that has happened, or
is happening, is a better way
00:19:34.17\00:19:37.21
of saying it.
00:19:37.21\00:19:38.21
>>JEFFERY: Can I
say one last thing?
00:19:38.21\00:19:40.21
I was watching a debate
between a Christian, Dinesh
00:19:40.21\00:19:42.21
D'Souza and Christopher
Hitchens, the atheist, and in
00:19:42.21\00:19:45.98
this debate, the atheist is
explaining why Christianity is
00:19:45.98\00:19:51.02
bad for the world and he
says, he references, look at the
00:19:51.02\00:19:56.46
record of the inquisition,
the Salem witch trials, and he
00:19:56.46\00:19:59.83
lists all of his atrocities,
to which the Christian, to my
00:19:59.83\00:20:03.57
horror, the rebuttal was,
well, there weren't really
00:20:03.57\00:20:07.30
that many.
00:20:07.30\00:20:08.30
>>TY: But they had hospitals.
00:20:08.30\00:20:10.34
>>JEFFERY: So, to me, as
I'm viewing this, I'm thinking,
00:20:10.34\00:20:13.14
no, the thing to say to the
atheist would be amen, I fully
00:20:13.14\00:20:16.98
agree with you.
00:20:16.98\00:20:18.18
And I have biblical precedent
to agree with you in regards
00:20:18.18\00:20:24.15
to that.
00:20:24.15\00:20:25.49
I think that's important.
00:20:25.49\00:20:28.12
>>TY: James, what was
on the tip of your tongue?
00:20:28.12\00:20:30.13
>>JAMES: I was just gonna say,
that's what makes this history
00:20:30.13\00:20:32.66
vital for us in
the post-modern world.
00:20:32.66\00:20:35.10
We need to have this history.
00:20:35.10\00:20:37.17
In other words, sometimes,
we wanna be apologetic and even
00:20:37.17\00:20:40.60
excuse or just like, let's
not offend anyone and talk about
00:20:40.60\00:20:44.51
our closet.
00:20:44.51\00:20:45.71
No, let's open up the closet
so that we can at least expose
00:20:45.71\00:20:50.01
what it shouldn't look
like in our present day, because
00:20:50.01\00:20:52.91
that'll give us
hope for going forward.
00:20:52.91\00:20:54.95
>>TY: Absolutely.
00:20:54.95\00:20:56.42
Well, we have to take a
break, although, you're all very
00:20:56.42\00:20:58.59
excited about this, but we
just have to push the pause
00:20:58.59\00:21:01.19
button for a minute
and we'll be right back.
00:21:01.19\00:21:03.36
[Music]
00:21:03.36\00:21:08.36
[Music]
00:21:08.36\00:21:09.63
>>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson,
welcome to digma.com.
00:21:17.11\00:21:19.81
I am so excited about this
website because you're about
00:21:19.81\00:21:23.28
to discover a powerful new
way to share life transforming
00:21:23.28\00:21:27.25
messages and videos with your
family, friends, and anybody
00:21:27.25\00:21:30.92
else on the planet who
has access to a computer.
00:21:30.92\00:21:34.72
Digma is a Greek word.
00:21:34.72\00:21:36.16
It basically means, to show
or to reveal something by means
00:21:36.16\00:21:40.43
of a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:21:40.43\00:21:43.03
It's the second half of the
word paradigma, from which we
00:21:43.03\00:21:46.67
get the English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:21:46.67\00:21:51.51
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:21:51.51\00:21:54.48
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:21:54.48\00:21:58.01
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:21:58.01\00:22:01.18
What's the meaning of life?
00:22:01.18\00:22:02.28
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:22:02.28\00:22:06.96
What happens when we die?
00:22:06.96\00:22:09.26
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:22:09.26\00:22:13.66
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:22:13.66\00:22:17.70
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:22:17.70\00:22:22.57
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email,
00:22:22.57\00:22:26.54
and more than 400 million
people are active on Facebook,
00:22:26.54\00:22:31.01
and 5 million new users
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00:22:31.01\00:22:36.02
We are literally in the midst
of a communications revolution
00:22:36.02\00:22:40.39
of massive proportion.
00:22:40.39\00:22:42.79
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:22:42.79\00:22:47.40
millions upon millions of
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00:22:47.40\00:22:52.63
what digma.com is all about.
00:22:52.63\00:22:54.90
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:22:54.90\00:22:59.41
exciting paradigm shift by
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00:22:59.41\00:23:03.28
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:23:03.28\00:23:07.42
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about
00:23:07.42\00:23:13.52
who God is.
00:23:13.52\00:23:14.96
who God is.
00:23:14.96\00:23:16.36
[Music]
00:23:25.83\00:23:32.11
>>TY: Jeffrey, you were
making such a powerful point,
00:23:32.11\00:23:34.61
and it's basically that,
oftentimes, the unbeliever,
00:23:34.61\00:23:40.05
the atheist, the agnostic
is occupying the rational and
00:23:40.05\00:23:44.45
moral high ground and we
feel this obligation to defend
00:23:44.45\00:23:50.76
institutional Christianity
down through history, we don't
00:23:50.76\00:23:53.16
need to feel that obligation
to justify or to defend
00:23:53.16\00:23:58.67
institutional Christianity
down through the ages.
00:23:58.67\00:24:01.44
As James said, we just
need to open the closet and say,
00:24:01.44\00:24:03.74
there's some ugly
stuff in that closet, so the
00:24:03.74\00:24:06.98
unbeliever's pushback on
historical Christiandom is a
00:24:06.98\00:24:11.85
legitimate pushback.
00:24:11.85\00:24:14.22
We need to be saying amen
to the atheist's pushback.
00:24:14.22\00:24:18.12
When they call attention
to the inquisition, when they
00:24:18.12\00:24:20.06
call attention to the
crusades, when they call
00:24:20.06\00:24:22.56
attention to all the
atrocities down through the
00:24:22.56\00:24:25.23
middle ages, we don't need
to say, but there was a lot of
00:24:25.23\00:24:30.30
good hospital work going on
at the time and there was great
00:24:30.30\00:24:34.54
art that Christianity was
contributing, and what about
00:24:34.54\00:24:37.67
the literature while we
were slaughtering people?
00:24:37.67\00:24:40.88
No, we just need to say, that
was wrong, wrong, wrong, and
00:24:40.88\00:24:46.05
here's the incredible thing.
00:24:46.05\00:24:48.38
Bible prophecy foretold
that it would exist so that it
00:24:48.38\00:24:52.69
allows us to occupy the
rational and moral high ground
00:24:52.69\00:24:56.12
with unbelievers against
the very system that we're
00:24:56.12\00:25:00.46
associated with.
00:25:00.46\00:25:02.20
I mean, it's just amazing.
00:25:02.20\00:25:04.03
>>JAMES: Yeah, if we don't
understand this, Paul says, at
00:25:04.03\00:25:06.50
the end of this, he says,
if we don't understand this, we
00:25:06.50\00:25:08.50
will be deceived with strong
delusion of what Christianity
00:25:08.50\00:25:11.64
looks like and doesn't look
like and we will not love the
00:25:11.64\00:25:14.04
truth because we'll align
Christianity with that which
00:25:14.04\00:25:17.75
is exposed in the dark ages
rather than with that which is
00:25:17.75\00:25:21.08
covenant truth.
00:25:21.08\00:25:22.32
And so, the way that he closes
this out is, there's gonna be
00:25:22.32\00:25:25.59
strong delusion, there's gonna
be people who don't want the
00:25:25.59\00:25:27.59
truth because they're just
gonna think in their minds,
00:25:27.59\00:25:29.59
oh, Christianity, oh, I
know what that looks like.
00:25:29.59\00:25:31.59
That looks like this.
00:25:31.59\00:25:32.56
And so, these verses
are vital, absolutely vital.
00:25:32.56\00:25:36.06
>>JEFFERY: Can we
go back to verse 3?
00:25:36.06\00:25:40.30
>>TY: We need to
define all the language.
00:25:40.30\00:25:45.11
>>JEFFERY: 'Cause I think...
00:25:45.11\00:25:46.68
>>TY: Let's go
through it in order.
00:25:46.68\00:25:50.41
Okay, falling away.
00:25:50.41\00:25:52.01
>>JAMES: Falling
away, apostacia is the word,
00:25:52.01\00:25:56.05
defection is the Greek, so
it is definitely a turning away
00:25:56.05\00:26:00.82
from the truth, which is
described in connection with
00:26:00.82\00:26:04.46
the son of perdition, which
is a phrase that is used in
00:26:04.46\00:26:08.20
describing Judas.
00:26:08.20\00:26:09.90
Judas was the son of perdition.
00:26:09.90\00:26:11.37
>>TY: And he was a
part of Jesus' crew.
00:26:11.37\00:26:13.37
>>JAMES: He was one of the
12, he cast out devils, he did
00:26:13.37\00:26:16.64
many wonderful works, he
followed Christ for 3 and a
00:26:16.64\00:26:19.44
half years, he was in the
inner circle, he had his hands
00:26:19.44\00:26:21.71
laid on him, and at the end,
he betrayed him for money, he
00:26:21.71\00:26:25.55
betrayed him for...
00:26:25.55\00:26:27.22
>>TY: Indulgences.
00:26:27.22\00:26:28.62
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:26:28.62\00:26:29.18
For advantage.
00:26:29.18\00:26:31.69
For monetary advantage.
00:26:31.69\00:26:34.02
>>JEFFERY: You just made the
connection son of perdition to
00:26:34.02\00:26:35.79
Judas?
00:26:35.79\00:26:36.52
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:26:36.52\00:26:37.56
>>JEFFERY: That was
really fast, so I wanted to...
00:26:37.56\00:26:38.99
>>TY: It's the only other time
in the bible that language is
00:26:38.99\00:26:43.06
used.
00:26:43.06\00:26:43.87
>>DAVID: It's
found in John 17:12.
00:26:43.87\00:26:45.37
>>JEFFERY: Yeah,
emphasize that, 'cause that's...
00:26:45.37\00:26:47.87
>>TY: So, wait a minute,
apostasy, which, falling away,
00:26:47.87\00:26:53.44
in my version, in
the Greek, apostasy.
00:26:53.44\00:26:56.61
So, the implication, and
we need to make this point, I
00:26:56.61\00:26:59.28
think, to fall away.
00:26:59.28\00:27:00.98
>>DAVID: No, no, no, you
said it means, you had a word.
00:27:00.98\00:27:04.25
>>JAMES: It means defection.
00:27:04.25\00:27:05.85
>>TY: Yeah, to defect means
that you were once a part of.
00:27:05.85\00:27:10.86
>>JAMES: It can
mean divorce as well.
00:27:10.86\00:27:13.29
>>TY: So, there's something
going on here where to fall
00:27:13.29\00:27:16.83
away means you were up
and now you're coming down.
00:27:16.83\00:27:20.47
To apostatize means that you
were connected and now you're
00:27:20.47\00:27:22.84
disconnecting, right?
00:27:22.84\00:27:24.17
So, this is clearly the same
kind of language that Daniel
00:27:24.17\00:27:29.11
was using to indicate
that this is a transition in
00:27:29.11\00:27:33.38
history that's taking
place where Christianity is
00:27:33.38\00:27:36.38
undergoing an
apostasy, a falling away.
00:27:36.38\00:27:39.45
>>JAMES: But
here's the scary part.
00:27:39.45\00:27:41.46
Verse 4, he exalts himself
above all that is called God,
00:27:41.46\00:27:45.79
or is worshipped so that he,
as God, sits in the temple of
00:27:45.79\00:27:48.90
God, showing himself that he
is God, so, you know, okay, we
00:27:48.90\00:27:52.60
defined all those words.
00:27:52.60\00:27:54.14
Oh, looks like he's
leaving, he's not leaving.
00:27:54.14\00:27:57.57
>>TY: He's hanging out.
00:27:57.57\00:27:58.71
>>JAMES: He's replacing.
00:27:58.71\00:27:59.87
He's replacing.
00:27:59.87\00:28:01.14
He's sitting in the place
of, and that's where we get the
00:28:01.14\00:28:04.11
idea of antichrist.
00:28:04.11\00:28:05.68
Antichrist is not just
against, antichrist is in the
00:28:05.68\00:28:08.05
place of.
00:28:08.05\00:28:09.15
Let me just share this
thought with you, this is really
00:28:09.15\00:28:11.05
interesting, okay, we're
in John's time right now.
00:28:11.05\00:28:13.05
John, the aide to disciple,
right, he's on the Isle of
00:28:13.05\00:28:15.66
Patmos for the word of God and
the testimony of Jesus Christ,
00:28:15.66\00:28:18.76
he writes these little
epistles, 1 John, 2 John, and
00:28:18.76\00:28:22.50
3 John.
00:28:22.50\00:28:23.50
Let me just read
this verse in 3 John.
00:28:23.50\00:28:25.50
This guy is the last of
the disciples of Christ.
00:28:25.50\00:28:27.50
This guy is like, if you were
alive in his time, this is the
00:28:27.50\00:28:31.37
guy you wanna meet.
00:28:31.37\00:28:32.74
Oh, if I could just meet John.
00:28:32.74\00:28:34.78
Okay, so, here he is, okay?
00:28:34.78\00:28:37.11
I wrote unto the church,
this is 3 John, verse 9, but
00:28:37.11\00:28:42.52
Diotrephes, who loves to
have the preeminence among them,
00:28:42.52\00:28:47.36
receiveth us not.
00:28:47.36\00:28:49.26
>>TY: So, there's a guy.
00:28:49.26\00:28:50.63
>>JAMES: Just wrap your
mind around that for a second.
00:28:50.63\00:28:52.99
There's a guy in the church,
he writes a letter to the
00:28:52.99\00:28:55.26
church, there's a guy in
the church and what do you want,
00:28:55.26\00:28:57.67
what does he want?
00:28:57.67\00:28:58.67
He wants preeminence.
00:28:58.67\00:28:59.73
So, who is he
unwilling to receive?
00:28:59.73\00:29:01.97
>>TY: Paul.
00:29:01.97\00:29:02.97
>>JAMES: No, John.
00:29:02.97\00:29:03.97
>>TY: Oh, John,
John, John, John, yes.
00:29:03.97\00:29:06.04
>>JAMES: John, John.
00:29:06.04\00:29:07.04
>>TY: Daniel, Moses.
00:29:07.04\00:29:08.21
>>JAMES: I mean, think about
this, think about this, this
00:29:08.21\00:29:11.11
is amazing because when
you look at that phrase, the
00:29:11.11\00:29:14.52
wicked one, just go back now
to 1 John chapter 2, and look
00:29:14.52\00:29:18.65
at verse 14, John is writing
again, he's writing to the
00:29:18.65\00:29:22.12
faithful in the church, not
Diotrephes, not the one that's
00:29:22.12\00:29:24.69
rejecting him, but the
faithful, and he says, I've
00:29:24.69\00:29:27.03
written unto you, fathers,
because you have known him
00:29:27.03\00:29:29.23
that is from the beginning.
00:29:29.23\00:29:30.97
I've written unto you, young
men, because you are strong
00:29:30.97\00:29:33.60
and the word of God abideth
in you and you have overcome the
00:29:33.60\00:29:36.94
wicked one.
00:29:36.94\00:29:38.04
That's the same phrase
that's used in 2 Thessalonians.
00:29:38.04\00:29:41.71
It's talking here in 2
Thessalonians, let me just get
00:29:41.71\00:29:44.38
down to it about the
wicked one, where is it?
00:29:44.38\00:29:47.15
Verse 8, and then,
shall the wicked be revealed.
00:29:47.15\00:29:50.65
In other words, John is
speaking about those who have
00:29:50.65\00:29:53.25
known Jesus, the principles
of the covenant, the principles
00:29:53.25\00:29:56.49
of God's kingdom.
00:29:56.49\00:29:57.66
And then, he's talking about
other people who don't know
00:29:57.66\00:29:59.89
those principles, and
they're in the church.
00:29:59.89\00:30:01.96
The two groups
are in the church.
00:30:01.96\00:30:03.97
How are they distinguished?
00:30:03.97\00:30:05.67
Well, if you go to Isaiah 14,
you have this whole, the whole
00:30:05.67\00:30:08.74
idea of the wicked one,
because the wicked one is
00:30:08.74\00:30:11.17
inspired by Satan.
00:30:11.17\00:30:13.48
Satan, it says...
00:30:13.48\00:30:15.14
>>TY: Is the
original wicked one.
00:30:15.14\00:30:17.15
>>JAMES: Right, and in 2
Thessalonians, it says, he's
00:30:17.15\00:30:19.15
the one behind the system, and
he's the one that wants exalt
00:30:19.15\00:30:21.62
himself above the throne of
God, sitting the size of the
00:30:21.62\00:30:24.19
north, in the place of God.
00:30:24.19\00:30:25.45
That's what this
guy's doing right here.
00:30:25.45\00:30:27.46
>>JEFFERY: James, I don't
remember the last time I ever
00:30:27.46\00:30:31.03
went to 3 John.
00:30:31.03\00:30:32.46
[Laughter]
00:30:32.46\00:30:33.46
I forgot 3 John
was in the bible.
00:30:33.46\00:30:36.53
>>TY: Just don't go to 4th John.
00:30:36.53\00:30:39.73
>>JAMES: 'Cause you'll be lost.
00:30:39.73\00:30:42.04
[Laughter]
00:30:42.04\00:30:43.20
So, the principle is already
at work, remember, Acts 20.
00:30:43.20\00:30:46.24
The principle
is already at work.
00:30:46.24\00:30:48.24
Well, what is the principle?
00:30:48.24\00:30:49.44
Well, we talked about it
in a sense, doctrinally and
00:30:49.44\00:30:52.05
theologically, but it's deeper
than that, it's simply the
00:30:52.05\00:30:55.05
exaltation of self.
00:30:55.05\00:30:56.28
>>TY: Loving preeminence.
00:30:56.28\00:30:57.49
>>JAMES: Loving preeminence,
putting yourself in the place
00:30:57.49\00:30:59.65
of God.
00:30:59.65\00:31:00.76
Selfless love, when
you're putting yourself in that
00:31:00.76\00:31:02.86
place.
00:31:02.86\00:31:03.86
And how does it manifest it?
00:31:03.86\00:31:05.56
In the way that we treat our
brothers and our sisters, and
00:31:05.56\00:31:07.96
the way that we relate to
those around us, that's how
00:31:07.96\00:31:09.93
it's manifested.
00:31:09.93\00:31:10.93
What does it lead to?
00:31:10.93\00:31:12.10
It leads to putting yourself
in the place of God so that
00:31:12.10\00:31:15.20
now, everything around you
is shaped around you being the
00:31:15.20\00:31:18.74
center rather than
God being the center.
00:31:18.74\00:31:20.74
>>DAVID: You know what's so
fascinating about that, love
00:31:20.74\00:31:23.01
all of that, you know,
chapter 4 here, we've already
00:31:23.01\00:31:25.28
mentioned several times,
this is steeped in Danielic
00:31:25.28\00:31:28.52
language.
00:31:28.52\00:31:29.52
>>JEFFERY: You're
in chapter 2, verse 4.
00:31:29.52\00:31:31.92
>>DAVID: I'm in 2
Thessalonians chapter 2, verse
00:31:31.92\00:31:33.52
4, who opposes and
exalts himself above all that is
00:31:33.52\00:31:34.72
called God that is worshipped,
so that he, as God, sits in
00:31:34.72\00:31:37.19
the temple of God
showing himself that he is God.
00:31:37.19\00:31:38.93
So, that's Daniel 8,
that's exalts, that's Daniel 7,
00:31:38.93\00:31:41.83
blasphemous words,
that's prince of the hosts.
00:31:41.83\00:31:43.67
>>JAMES: Daniel 11:36, too.
00:31:43.67\00:31:45.83
>>DAVID: It's all
of them, isn't it?
00:31:45.83\00:31:46.90
It's Daniel 7, it's
Daniel 8, it's Daniel 11.
00:31:46.90\00:31:49.34
>>JEFFERY: It's Daniel.
00:31:49.34\00:31:50.57
>>DAVID: And here's the thing,
if you look at, okay, so those
00:31:50.57\00:31:52.57
are the prophecies of Daniel.
00:31:52.57\00:31:55.04
You have these two like,
driving narratives in the book
00:31:55.04\00:31:58.38
of Daniel.
00:31:58.38\00:31:59.41
You have Daniel chapter
3, which some of us might
00:31:59.41\00:32:01.02
remember, which is the
where Nebuchadnezzar sets up a
00:32:01.02\00:32:03.65
statue, a statue on the plane
of Dura, and he says, okay,
00:32:03.65\00:32:07.39
here's the deal, we're
gonna play music and everybody's
00:32:07.39\00:32:09.39
gonna bow down to this statue,
and if you don't, you will be
00:32:09.39\00:32:13.23
killed, you'll be
thrown into the fiery furnace.
00:32:13.23\00:32:15.20
Okay, that is exactly
where Christianity is gonna go.
00:32:15.20\00:32:17.93
That is a defining narrative.
00:32:17.93\00:32:21.67
So, you have the prophecies of
Daniel, which are anticipating
00:32:21.67\00:32:23.61
this spirit, this anti-hesed
spirit, this anti-covenantal
00:32:23.61\00:32:28.28
spirit that's gonna come in,
and here's the story, this is
00:32:28.28\00:32:30.58
what that will look like.
00:32:30.58\00:32:31.88
People are gonna be told,
you worship this image in a
00:32:31.88\00:32:33.62
certain way and if you
don't, you'll be killed.
00:32:33.62\00:32:35.18
Okay, then you have Daniel
6, Daniel's praying, praying,
00:32:35.18\00:32:38.12
praying, praying, a decree
comes from above, hey, we're
00:32:38.12\00:32:40.36
the ones who decide when
you pray, to whom you pray, how
00:32:40.36\00:32:42.56
you pray, so, it's not just
the prophecies of Daniel and
00:32:42.56\00:32:47.23
the stories are
absent from the drive.
00:32:47.23\00:32:49.90
>>JEFFERY: They illustrate.
00:32:49.90\00:32:51.07
>>DAVID: They're driving
in the same direction, saying,
00:32:51.07\00:32:53.57
people are gonna come to
the position of such prominence
00:32:53.57\00:32:55.57
that they're gonna say, this
is how you worship, and if you
00:32:55.57\00:32:58.27
don't worship like this,
you'll be killed, and this is
00:32:58.27\00:33:00.31
how you pray, and if you don't
pray like this, it will be on
00:33:00.31\00:33:02.94
pain of death
or of imprisonment.
00:33:02.94\00:33:05.41
This is what's
being described here.
00:33:05.41\00:33:08.22
>>JEFFERY: The prophecies
frame, the stories add the
00:33:08.22\00:33:11.52
details.
00:33:11.52\00:33:12.72
>>JAMES: In fact, in Daniel
11:36, Paul's almost quoting,
00:33:12.72\00:33:14.86
listen to this, and the
king shall do according to his
00:33:14.86\00:33:17.33
will, he will exalt himself,
he will magnify himself above
00:33:17.33\00:33:20.73
every God, he will speak
marvelous things against the
00:33:20.73\00:33:22.70
God of gods and he'll
prosper and practice 'til the
00:33:22.70\00:33:24.87
indignation be accomplished
for that is determined shall
00:33:24.87\00:33:27.14
be done.
00:33:27.14\00:33:28.50
It's almost like he's
quoting Daniel 11 verse 36 in
00:33:28.50\00:33:30.91
2 Thessalonians.
00:33:30.91\00:33:32.21
>>TY: Almost?
00:33:32.21\00:33:32.87
>>JAMES: Yeah.
00:33:32.87\00:33:33.51
>>TY: He is.
00:33:33.51\00:33:34.61
He is referring to Daniel.
00:33:34.61\00:33:37.91
>>JAMES: He's referring to
Daniel, but I'm specifically
00:33:37.91\00:33:39.25
thinking of Daniel
11:36, because that's covenant
00:33:39.25\00:33:41.85
language chapter right there.
00:33:41.85\00:33:43.25
Covenant, covenant,
covenant, covenant, covenant.
00:33:43.25\00:33:45.25
>>DAVID: So, then, verse 5.
00:33:45.25\00:33:46.22
>>TY: You're back in 2
Thessalonians chapter 2.
00:33:46.22\00:33:48.62
>>DAVID: This is the
passage we're working through.
00:33:48.62\00:33:50.83
>>TY: Can I add one
thing before you read it?
00:33:50.83\00:33:51.83
>>DAVID: Please,
please, by all means.
00:33:51.83\00:33:52.96
>>TY: I heard somebody say
this one time, I don't know
00:33:52.96\00:33:54.30
who said it, so I wrote
it down while you guys were
00:33:54.30\00:33:55.76
talking, the point that
James was making reminded me of
00:33:55.76\00:33:58.70
this.
00:33:58.70\00:33:59.90
There is many a man who would
be God, but only one God who
00:33:59.90\00:34:03.74
would be man.
00:34:03.74\00:34:04.91
The idea that James was just
calling attention to is that
00:34:04.91\00:34:10.48
you have this power that is
described, or characterized by
00:34:10.48\00:34:15.25
human beings desiring
preeminence, but then you have
00:34:15.25\00:34:19.45
the God that these people
are trying to emulate, who's
00:34:19.45\00:34:25.06
actually of the exact
opposite kind of character.
00:34:25.06\00:34:28.23
We're trying to go up, and
the whole time, he's voluntarily
00:34:28.23\00:34:31.63
coming down.
00:34:31.63\00:34:33.10
>>DAVID: This is the
washing of the disciple's feet.
00:34:33.10\00:34:35.60
>>JAMES: We've gotta talk
about this just a little bit,
00:34:35.60\00:34:37.67
because the light
bulb went on just recently.
00:34:37.67\00:34:39.94
You know how it is, you read
the bible forever and you have
00:34:39.94\00:34:42.01
all these thoughts and all
of a sudden, something clicks,
00:34:42.01\00:34:44.15
and I've read the text in
Isaiah 14 over and over again
00:34:44.15\00:34:47.62
for years.
00:34:47.62\00:34:48.62
We've all read that text, right?
00:34:48.62\00:34:50.62
Isaiah 14:12-14, it
talks about, you know, Lucifer,
00:34:50.62\00:34:53.05
basically, it's identifying
what his goal is, to sit in
00:34:53.05\00:34:56.32
the sides of the north, in
God's place, is that Isaiah
00:34:56.32\00:34:59.36
12?
00:34:59.36\00:35:00.36
Yeah, Isaiah 12.
00:35:00.36\00:35:01.33
>>TY: No, it's 14, verse 12.
00:35:01.33\00:35:03.00
>>JAMES: Okay, so notice
this, how art thou fallen from
00:35:03.00\00:35:06.40
heaven, oh, Lucifer, son of
the morning, how art thou cut
00:35:06.40\00:35:08.67
down in the ground which
weakened the nations, for thou
00:35:08.67\00:35:10.54
has said in thine heart,
I will descend into heave, I
00:35:10.54\00:35:13.04
will exalt my throne above the
stars of God, I will sit also
00:35:13.04\00:35:15.68
upon the mount of the
congregation in the sights of
00:35:15.68\00:35:17.71
the north, I will ascend above
the heights of the clouds, I
00:35:17.71\00:35:19.91
will be like the most high.
00:35:19.91\00:35:22.42
And from these verses, I
think we get the impression that
00:35:22.42\00:35:28.76
because Satan is trying to
be like the most high in sitting
00:35:28.76\00:35:33.53
in sides of the north, in
the mount of the congregation,
00:35:33.53\00:35:36.26
that that's what
the most high is like.
00:35:36.26\00:35:38.63
In other words, Satan
has actually programmed us to
00:35:38.63\00:35:41.07
think that
that's what God is like.
00:35:41.07\00:35:43.71
>>TY: To think hat
God is self-exalting.
00:35:43.71\00:35:46.11
>>JAMES: And he completely,
completely misunderstood what
00:35:46.11\00:35:50.31
God is like.
00:35:50.31\00:35:51.51
>>JEFFERY: So, that statement,
really, I wanna be like the
00:35:51.51\00:35:53.08
most high is actually
an incorrect statement.
00:35:53.08\00:35:56.18
If Lucifer really want to
be like the most high, what is
00:35:56.18\00:36:00.72
the most high like?
00:36:00.72\00:36:03.43
>>TY: The progression of
the passage is, I will exalt
00:36:03.43\00:36:07.03
myself, I will exalt myself,
I will exalt myself, I'll be
00:36:07.03\00:36:10.13
like the God.
00:36:10.13\00:36:11.83
The devil himself is assuming
that God operates on the
00:36:11.83\00:36:16.44
principle of self-exaltation
and preeminence over others.
00:36:16.44\00:36:19.91
So, I want that position
and God does the most amazing
00:36:19.91\00:36:23.38
thing imaginable.
00:36:23.38\00:36:24.58
He vacates it.
00:36:24.58\00:36:27.72
He comes down.
00:36:27.72\00:36:30.32
>>DAVID: He made himself of no
reputation, taking the form of
00:36:30.32\00:36:32.52
a bond servant, he came in
the likeness of men, being found
00:36:32.52\00:36:34.82
in the appearances of men,
he humbled himself and became
00:36:34.82\00:36:36.83
obedient to the point of
death, even the death of the
00:36:36.83\00:36:38.79
cross.
00:36:38.79\00:36:39.76
2 Thessalonians, or
excuse me, Philippians 2.
00:36:39.76\00:36:42.20
So, he vacates the space
and says, okay, you wanna be...?
00:36:42.20\00:36:48.14
>>TY: You're
excited right now, Jeffrey.
00:36:48.14\00:36:51.44
>>JEFFERY: It's a great story.
00:36:51.44\00:36:53.01
You know what I mean?
00:36:53.01\00:36:56.01
It's just an incredible...
00:36:56.01\00:36:57.25
>>TY: It bears witness to the
fact that it's true in that it
00:36:57.25\00:37:00.95
is completely contrary
to every other narrative in
00:37:00.95\00:37:05.02
history and it's true to
what we know ought to be true.
00:37:05.02\00:37:09.22
>>JAMES: In our own heart of
hearts, we sense, we are drawn
00:37:09.22\00:37:12.86
to this.
00:37:12.86\00:37:14.10
Everything around us pushes us
away, but we are drawn to this
00:37:14.10\00:37:15.83
in our own heart of hearts.
00:37:15.83\00:37:17.83
>>DAVID: Alistair McGrath,
the you know, one of the best
00:37:17.83\00:37:20.54
known philosophers of
Christianity, analytical...
00:37:20.54\00:37:22.94
>>JAMES: David, before you
finish, give that to me, give
00:37:22.94\00:37:25.17
that to me.
00:37:25.17\00:37:26.17
>>DAVID: [Laughter]
00:37:26.17\00:37:27.78
He says, and I love
quoting him on this, he says,
00:37:27.78\00:37:31.21
Christianity, he says this
story, the biblical story, he
00:37:31.21\00:37:34.08
says, it's not only the most
beautiful story ever told, he
00:37:34.08\00:37:37.52
says, it's the most beautiful
story that could be told.
00:37:37.52\00:37:39.69
You can't
imagine a better story.
00:37:39.69\00:37:41.69
You can't imagine a better
reality than there is a God,
00:37:41.69\00:37:46.03
number one, number two, he's
like Jesus, okay, that's it.
00:37:46.03\00:37:50.27
Come up with a better
story, knock yourself out.
00:37:50.27\00:37:52.70
Tolstoy, Dusdiefski, go, right?
00:37:52.70\00:37:55.24
You're not gonna write
a better story than that.
00:37:55.24\00:37:59.47
>>TY: No.
00:37:59.47\00:38:00.48
We have to take a break.
00:38:00.48\00:38:01.48
We don't want to,
but we're going to.
00:38:01.48\00:38:03.48
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00:38:20.10\00:38:23.30
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00:39:00.04\00:39:05.87
>>TY: Man, we just ended
that last segment on such a high
00:39:05.87\00:39:08.74
note, I can feel the
excitement around the table
00:39:08.74\00:39:11.75
because we're all realizing,
wait a minute, are we saying,
00:39:11.75\00:39:15.78
is the bible saying that
the most powerful person in the
00:39:15.78\00:39:18.89
universe, God almighty
has a character of humble,
00:39:18.89\00:39:24.69
self-sacrificing love and
that's really what God looks
00:39:24.69\00:39:28.70
like in the final analysis?
00:39:28.70\00:39:31.17
And the thing in history that
claims to be representing him,
00:39:31.17\00:39:36.47
the language that I
haven't seen for a long time, in
00:39:36.47\00:39:39.11
3 John, I think it was,
where John is describing what
00:39:39.11\00:39:43.41
Christianity looks like when
it begins to go wrong, where
00:39:43.41\00:39:47.02
local people in
churches desire preeminence.
00:39:47.02\00:39:51.82
That's just a micro chasm
of the big system that desires
00:39:51.82\00:39:55.99
preeminence.
00:39:55.99\00:39:57.09
>>JEFFERY: And the big
system is a micro chasm of the
00:39:57.09\00:39:59.69
controversy, the
bigger controversy.
00:39:59.69\00:40:01.73
>>TY: We've got the truth
and we'll tell you how it is and
00:40:01.73\00:40:03.80
if you don't
comply, we're kill you.
00:40:03.80\00:40:05.80
That whole process of thought.
00:40:05.80\00:40:08.87
>>JAMES: I also think it's a
micro chasm of the forces they
00:40:08.87\00:40:12.94
were up against.
00:40:12.94\00:40:14.24
Put yourself in Diotrephes
place and try to understand
00:40:14.24\00:40:20.58
how he could do that.
00:40:20.58\00:40:21.58
Like...
00:40:21.58\00:40:22.58
>>JEFFERY:
Remind us who that is.
00:40:22.58\00:40:24.62
>>JAMES: And therefore,
wouldn't even receive John
00:40:24.62\00:40:28.72
himself, the only living
disciple of Christ, you know,
00:40:28.72\00:40:31.46
on planet earth at that time,
I mean, put yourself in that
00:40:31.46\00:40:34.40
place and just think about
that, what kind of, these are
00:40:34.40\00:40:38.70
the facts that
he's going against.
00:40:38.70\00:40:40.84
John, disciple, long-term,
faithful, boiling pot of oil,
00:40:40.84\00:40:45.71
on the Isle of Patmos,
whatever, 'cause he gets off
00:40:45.71\00:40:48.18
there toward the end of his
life, I'm thinking this is the
00:40:48.18\00:40:50.18
end of his life.
00:40:50.18\00:40:51.41
Think of the kind of, I think,
inward deception that we take
00:40:51.41\00:40:57.05
a hold of that would cause
us to actually reject that kind
00:40:57.05\00:41:01.26
of person, that kind of
Revelation, that kind of
00:41:01.26\00:41:04.16
witness.
00:41:04.16\00:41:05.33
In other words, this isn't
just papacy, this isn't just,
00:41:05.33\00:41:08.56
it's us.
00:41:08.56\00:41:09.53
>>TY: James and I got
that out of that passage.
00:41:09.53\00:41:12.27
I've never seen that,
this is a local church member.
00:41:12.27\00:41:15.67
>>JAMES: Yeah,
this is a local guy.
00:41:15.67\00:41:16.97
>>TY: A local church member.
00:41:16.97\00:41:18.21
>>JAMES: You don't have to be
sitting as the pope, you don't
00:41:18.21\00:41:19.27
have to be sitting, you
can just be the local guy.
00:41:19.27\00:41:23.24
>>TY: The head elder or not.
00:41:23.24\00:41:25.05
>>JAMES: And Christ says
it this way, as you've treated
00:41:25.05\00:41:26.41
one of the least of these
disciples, you've done it unto
00:41:26.41\00:41:27.98
me.
00:41:27.98\00:41:29.22
The way that we interact with
just people, we can have that
00:41:29.22\00:41:31.82
same, because you've
gotta understand, at this point,
00:41:31.82\00:41:34.26
John is actually, probably
like an old guy that's walking
00:41:34.26\00:41:37.49
around with a cane and really
needs help with everything he
00:41:37.49\00:41:39.96
does, you know what I'm saying?
00:41:39.96\00:41:41.30
>>JEFFERY: Can I
piggyback on what you just said?
00:41:41.30\00:41:43.83
When we go back to 2
Thessalonians 2 verse 7, it
00:41:43.83\00:41:47.97
says, for the mystery of
lawlessness is already at work.
00:41:47.97\00:41:53.14
So, what you're saying
is, we've been describing this
00:41:53.14\00:41:55.91
institution, this system, right?
00:41:55.91\00:41:58.38
That's gonna arise and
here, it hasn't come yet.
00:41:58.38\00:42:02.22
But yet, Paul says, the
spirit of it is here now.
00:42:02.22\00:42:05.15
>>TY: And people like
this local guy who desires
00:42:05.15\00:42:08.32
preeminence.
00:42:08.32\00:42:09.49
People like any one of us
or any local church situation.
00:42:09.49\00:42:13.83
>>JEFFERY: Which tells us that
when we talk like this about
00:42:13.83\00:42:17.93
historical institutions and
when we name them by name and
00:42:17.93\00:42:22.44
we call them out, we're
not talking about the thing
00:42:22.44\00:42:26.04
itself, individuals, we're
talking about a system that
00:42:26.04\00:42:29.98
was at work before the
institution existed, which
00:42:29.98\00:42:34.78
tells us, it's a
principle, not wrapped up in an
00:42:34.78\00:42:37.65
individual.
00:42:37.65\00:42:38.95
>>TY: I'm just
overwhelmed with this insight.
00:42:38.95\00:42:40.96
A local guy wanting
preeminence and that is the
00:42:40.96\00:42:43.83
beginning of the formation
of the system, because what is a
00:42:43.83\00:42:46.80
system if it's not a bunch
of individual, local people who
00:42:46.80\00:42:51.57
come together
to create a system?
00:42:51.57\00:42:53.57
>>JAMES: Now, going back
all the way to Eden and even to
00:42:53.57\00:42:55.74
heaven, it's the same principle.
00:42:55.74\00:42:57.84
So, in Eden, you
have Adam and Eve.
00:42:57.84\00:42:59.84
They've got all this evidence
of God, that's more than what
00:42:59.84\00:43:01.84
this guy has of John.
00:43:01.84\00:43:03.04
It's just like, awesome, and
Satan comes and promises them
00:43:03.04\00:43:06.98
preeminence.
00:43:06.98\00:43:08.35
It's the same principle.
00:43:08.35\00:43:09.38
>>TY: Okay, we better
trek through this passage.
00:43:09.38\00:43:11.99
>>DAVID: I was
just about to say.
00:43:11.99\00:43:13.99
Chapter 2, verse 5, chapter
2, verse 5, 2 Thessalonians, do
00:43:13.99\00:43:17.59
you not remember when I
was still with you, I told you
00:43:17.59\00:43:20.20
these things?
00:43:20.20\00:43:21.40
Now, one of the things that's
interesting here and students
00:43:21.40\00:43:24.63
of scripture and scholars
have noted that Paul seems to
00:43:24.63\00:43:28.54
become purposefully opaque
here, sort of, hey, don't you
00:43:28.54\00:43:32.84
remember, I was with you,
we talked about this, because
00:43:32.84\00:43:35.18
what's gonna happen next is a
section of scripture in verses
00:43:35.18\00:43:39.41
6, 7, and 8, that
are kind of like, what?
00:43:39.41\00:43:41.52
Because he's gonna start using
pronouns really before he's
00:43:41.52\00:43:44.82
given us the antecedent
to those pronouns, which is
00:43:44.82\00:43:47.02
unusual.
00:43:47.02\00:43:48.22
Normally, I'll say something
like, oh, I saw Ty, he was at
00:43:48.22\00:43:51.23
the grocery store.
00:43:51.23\00:43:53.23
He, yeah, so, I'm gonna say,
he, and you'd be saying, who
00:43:53.23\00:43:56.83
are we talking about here?
00:43:56.83\00:43:58.70
So, let's look at that.
00:43:58.70\00:43:59.87
Don't you remember when I
was with you, I told you these
00:43:59.87\00:44:01.70
things?
00:44:01.70\00:44:02.87
The bit of, you know, there's
something there, a little
00:44:02.87\00:44:04.71
opaque, verse 6, and now you
know what is restraining, that
00:44:04.71\00:44:09.18
he may be
revealed in his own time.
00:44:09.18\00:44:12.25
Something is
restraining this from happening.
00:44:12.25\00:44:16.02
Remember, let's just go back
and remember the trajectory of
00:44:16.02\00:44:18.02
thought.
00:44:18.02\00:44:19.12
Hey, you think the day of
the Lord is coming, it's not
00:44:19.12\00:44:21.09
coming yet because a falling
away has to come first ,and
00:44:21.09\00:44:24.56
then, this power's gonna come,
exalt, we've been on that, and
00:44:24.56\00:44:27.50
then he says, but now
you know, something is
00:44:27.50\00:44:29.46
restraining,
something is preventing.
00:44:29.46\00:44:31.47
>>TY: Restraining
and preventing what?
00:44:31.47\00:44:33.47
The falling away.
00:44:33.47\00:44:34.47
>>JEFFERY: Now, can
you stop right there?
00:44:34.47\00:44:36.47
Open question, why does
he say now you know what is
00:44:36.47\00:44:38.47
restraining?
00:44:38.47\00:44:39.47
What is he saying?
00:44:39.47\00:44:40.48
The community understands...
00:44:40.48\00:44:42.38
>>DAVID: No, I think he's
saying in verse 5, don't you
00:44:42.38\00:44:44.75
remember when I was with you,
we talked about these things
00:44:44.75\00:44:46.85
and now, you know.
00:44:46.85\00:44:48.02
>>TY: He may be deliberately
being enigmatic because he's
00:44:48.02\00:44:49.92
writing this stuff out and
he's saying, hey, remember in
00:44:49.92\00:44:52.95
our conversations, wink,
nod, you know what we're talking
00:44:52.95\00:44:55.82
about here, right?
00:44:55.82\00:44:56.83
>>DAVID: That's
what I mean by opaque.
00:44:56.83\00:44:58.83
He's purposefully because,
as we're gonna see here, the
00:44:58.83\00:45:01.30
power that he's
fingering is wrong.
00:45:01.30\00:45:03.30
He can't just come right
out and say, hey, this is what's
00:45:03.30\00:45:06.00
gonna happen.
00:45:06.00\00:45:06.94
>>JAMES: The one
under whom he's now living.
00:45:06.94\00:45:09.00
>>DAVID: Yeah, you can't put
that in writing and send it to
00:45:09.00\00:45:11.01
these churches.
00:45:11.01\00:45:12.04
>>TY: So, he says, hey,
remember that conversation
00:45:12.04\00:45:14.01
that we had, wink, nod.
00:45:14.01\00:45:15.18
Yeah, he's speaking in riddles
on paper so that he's not
00:45:15.18\00:45:18.98
exposed.
00:45:18.98\00:45:20.08
>>DAVID: And endangering
those to whom he's writing or
00:45:20.08\00:45:21.98
himself.
00:45:21.98\00:45:23.15
So, verse 6, that something
is restraining that he may be
00:45:23.15\00:45:26.49
revealed in his own time.
00:45:26.49\00:45:28.32
Something is preventing this
power, this man of sin, this
00:45:28.32\00:45:32.36
exalting power, preeminent
power, verse 7, for the
00:45:32.36\00:45:37.23
mystery of
lawlessness is already at work.
00:45:37.23\00:45:40.67
Do we wanna say?
00:45:40.67\00:45:41.77
I mean, the mystery of
lawlessness, this is what you
00:45:41.77\00:45:43.67
were getting at, Jeffrey, it's
what we're talking about with
00:45:43.67\00:45:45.67
Dystrophies, this spirit
that's gonna lead to this
00:45:45.67\00:45:49.01
ediphus, this grand ediphus,
that's already in the air.
00:45:49.01\00:45:51.98
>>JAMES: Just to
connect it quickly, and that is
00:45:51.98\00:45:54.88
lawlessness, the law is a
transcript of God's character.
00:45:54.88\00:45:57.79
This mystery, this thing
that's working against the
00:45:57.79\00:46:00.39
character of God, the love
of God, the selfless giving.
00:46:00.39\00:46:03.63
I mean, that's the
direction we're going.
00:46:03.63\00:46:05.86
>>TY: Well, that would
parallel with Daniel saying of
00:46:05.86\00:46:09.03
this same power that he will
think to change the times and
00:46:09.03\00:46:12.63
laws of the most high, and
throughout the Old Testament,
00:46:12.63\00:46:16.14
we didn't call attention
to this, but I think we should
00:46:16.14\00:46:18.14
now, the word
covenant repeatedly in the Old
00:46:18.14\00:46:21.11
Testament is
equivalent to the law.
00:46:21.11\00:46:23.98
>>JAMES: And speaking against
the most high, words against
00:46:23.98\00:46:28.15
the most high, in other words,
misrepresenting the character
00:46:28.15\00:46:30.19
of the most high.
00:46:30.19\00:46:31.42
Because that's basically what
the principle is that Satan is
00:46:31.42\00:46:33.36
doing, in Isaiah 14, he's
like, totally misrepresented
00:46:33.36\00:46:36.59
God.
00:46:36.59\00:46:37.79
We get a false picture of
God because we just assume, I'm
00:46:37.79\00:46:40.96
just gonna throw this out,
oh, Satan wants to sit in the
00:46:40.96\00:46:42.60
place of God.
00:46:42.60\00:46:43.80
He can't sit in the place of
God, only God can sit in that
00:46:43.80\00:46:44.83
place.
00:46:44.83\00:46:45.93
God's the one that needs
that, but what we've missed,
00:46:45.93\00:46:48.14
perhaps, is the idea that
sitting in the place of God,
00:46:48.14\00:46:50.87
being in the center is not
really a representation or a
00:46:50.87\00:46:53.98
picture of God.
00:46:53.98\00:46:55.14
>>TY: Yeah, God doesn't
even, he's not even jealous, he
00:46:55.14\00:46:57.68
doesn't consider it robbery
to be, he's not holding onto the
00:46:57.68\00:47:02.15
position.
00:47:02.15\00:47:03.42
>>DAVID: When nobody's
gonna wash the feet, nobody's
00:47:03.42\00:47:06.99
willing to do it, it's
the lowest, most servile task,
00:47:06.99\00:47:09.32
Jesus is like, oh, I'll do that.
00:47:09.32\00:47:11.96
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm happy to.
00:47:11.96\00:47:13.23
>>TY: The first sign that
you're not God is that you're
00:47:13.23\00:47:16.50
not God is that you wanna be.
00:47:16.50\00:47:18.47
[Laughter]
00:47:18.47\00:47:20.60
>>DAVID: So, the rest of our
7 there, and this is where it
00:47:20.60\00:47:22.30
gets kind of interesting,
I'm reading New King James, I
00:47:22.30\00:47:24.24
think most of us here today
have either King James or New
00:47:24.24\00:47:25.74
King James.
00:47:25.74\00:47:26.91
My translation says, only
he who now restrains will do so
00:47:26.91\00:47:29.24
until he is
taken out of the way.
00:47:29.24\00:47:31.65
Now, this is where we have
an antecedent, this is where we
00:47:31.65\00:47:34.12
have a pronoun with
no antecedent, right?
00:47:34.12\00:47:36.38
He who restrains will do so
until he is taken out of the
00:47:36.38\00:47:39.59
way.
00:47:39.59\00:47:40.82
There's been no mention of the
restrainer up 'til this point.
00:47:40.82\00:47:43.96
Now, in my translation,
New King James, it says capital
00:47:43.96\00:47:47.46
He, only He, capital H,
who now restrains will do so
00:47:47.46\00:47:51.87
until, capital H, He
is taken out of the way.
00:47:51.87\00:47:54.60
Now, you can look in the
marginal reference and it
00:47:54.60\00:47:56.00
says, or, lowercase he.
00:47:56.00\00:47:59.17
And the reason for that is,
is that there has been debate,
00:47:59.17\00:48:02.11
who is this?
00:48:02.11\00:48:03.11
Who is the restrainer?
00:48:03.11\00:48:04.21
And one of the sort of
prevailing ideas, so prevalent
00:48:04.21\00:48:06.61
that the translators
were like, maybe it's the Holy
00:48:06.61\00:48:08.62
Spirit?
00:48:08.62\00:48:10.19
God is restraining, God is
not allowing this anti-Christian
00:48:10.19\00:48:13.25
power to come forward.
00:48:13.25\00:48:14.46
Now, there's nothing in the
Greek text that suggests that
00:48:14.46\00:48:17.33
this is capital H He.
00:48:17.33\00:48:19.39
They're just
guessing, they don't know.
00:48:19.39\00:48:21.36
So, this is interesting
because now we have that
00:48:21.36\00:48:23.37
opacity that we were talking
about that where Paul's like
00:48:23.37\00:48:25.57
hey, wink, wink, nod, nod, the
restrainer will restrain until
00:48:25.57\00:48:28.84
he's no longer restraining and
then this power will come and
00:48:28.84\00:48:31.64
the falling
away will take place.
00:48:31.64\00:48:33.81
And commentators historically
have looked at this and said,
00:48:33.81\00:48:35.81
what?
00:48:35.81\00:48:38.01
And everything from the Holy
Spirit as the He to God as the
00:48:38.01\00:48:42.38
He that's restraining, but
I'm gonna put forward the idea
00:48:42.38\00:48:46.96
here, it's actually the
very thing that was depicted in
00:48:46.96\00:48:50.46
Daniel 2, 7, 11, it's
the thing that restrains, it
00:48:50.46\00:48:56.30
doesn't allow the little horn
to emerge, is the existence of
00:48:56.30\00:49:00.80
the fourth
kingdom, it's pagan Rome.
00:49:00.80\00:49:03.34
Unless and until imperial
Rome is moved off the scene, you
00:49:03.34\00:49:07.84
cannot have the power vacuum
into which the little horn
00:49:07.84\00:49:10.78
emerges.
00:49:10.78\00:49:11.78
He's
restraining, he's preventing.
00:49:11.78\00:49:14.52
But when he's taken off the
scene, which we described AD
00:49:14.52\00:49:16.89
476, end of the fifth
century, right, now, okay,
00:49:16.89\00:49:20.72
well, what's the power?
00:49:20.72\00:49:21.89
Well, the power that steps
into that gap is the bishop of
00:49:21.89\00:49:26.26
Rome at the head of the
imperial capital and in just a
00:49:26.26\00:49:29.93
century or two, you're gonna
have the holy Roman empire.
00:49:29.93\00:49:33.34
So, the restraining
power is actually the political
00:49:33.34\00:49:37.27
strength and the political
homogeneity of pagan Rome.
00:49:37.27\00:49:41.01
Once that's gone, there's
no more restraint on this thing
00:49:41.01\00:49:44.55
coming forward.
00:49:44.55\00:49:45.88
But here's the thing, if
you're not rooted in Daniel,
00:49:45.88\00:49:48.48
if you're not rooted in Daniel
7, 8, 9, 11, you will say, oh,
00:49:48.48\00:49:53.09
capital He?
00:49:53.09\00:49:54.09
Is this the Holy
Spirit, who is this?
00:49:54.09\00:49:56.09
But if you're in Daniel, this
is, I'm gonna go out on a limb
00:49:56.09\00:49:59.36
and say, it's
not even difficult.
00:49:59.36\00:50:01.46
It's not hard to
understand at all.
00:50:01.46\00:50:04.87
>>TY: He's essentially
saying, there is a succession of
00:50:04.87\00:50:09.17
powers in Daniel and when you
come to Paul, Paul is ignoring
00:50:09.17\00:50:13.34
Babylon, ignoring Medo-Persia,
ignoring Greece, and he's just
00:50:13.34\00:50:18.61
dealing with the
final two powers.
00:50:18.61\00:50:22.02
>>JEFFERY: Because
he's writing where he's at.
00:50:22.02\00:50:24.02
Daniel writes Babylon
because that's where he's at.
00:50:24.02\00:50:26.55
Paul writes Rome,
that's where he's at.
00:50:26.55\00:50:29.06
>>TY: So, Paul is essentially
saying, we are going to
00:50:29.06\00:50:33.46
witness a transition from
Roman empire to Roman church.
00:50:33.46\00:50:40.74
>>DAVID: To holy Roman
empire or Roman church.
00:50:40.74\00:50:43.07
>>TY: Pagan Roman empire,
papal Roman empire, and it's
00:50:43.07\00:50:46.71
the pagan Roman empire that
is occupying the position and
00:50:46.71\00:50:50.08
thereby restraining the papacy
from forming, and as soon as
00:50:50.08\00:50:55.52
Rome winds down through
political implosion, there's
00:50:55.52\00:51:02.19
gonna be a power vacuum and
the papacy's going to occupy
00:51:02.19\00:51:06.80
that position and it will
be, at that point that the grand
00:51:06.80\00:51:10.30
masquerade of history takes
place where a Christian power
00:51:10.30\00:51:17.74
is not actual Christianity.
00:51:17.74\00:51:20.41
>>JAMES: Now, one of the
best evidences of this is in the
00:51:20.41\00:51:23.45
text.
00:51:23.45\00:51:24.71
I know people are probably
thinking, well, how do you
00:51:24.71\00:51:26.18
know that for sure?
00:51:26.18\00:51:27.38
Well, just look at this, we're
talking about fifth century
00:51:27.38\00:51:31.52
right now, right?
00:51:31.52\00:51:32.62
That transition.
00:51:32.62\00:51:33.82
But look at the text in verse
8, and then shall the wicked
00:51:33.82\00:51:36.36
be revealed whom the Lord
shall consume from the spirit
00:51:36.36\00:51:40.80
of his mouth and shall destroy
with the brightness of his
00:51:40.80\00:51:43.03
coming.
00:51:43.03\00:51:44.30
Do you see the
evidence for it right here?
00:51:44.30\00:51:47.10
>>TY: Tell us.
00:51:47.10\00:51:47.87
>>DAVID: I'm waiting.
00:51:47.87\00:51:49.07
>>JAMES: Okay, if this power
that we're talking about, this
00:51:49.07\00:51:50.87
transition that we're talking
about now took place in the
00:51:50.87\00:51:53.07
fifth century, verse 8 tells
us that it will continue all
00:51:53.07\00:51:58.01
the way down until the
second coming of Christ.
00:51:58.01\00:52:01.88
So, whatever power it is
that's transitioned out of
00:52:01.88\00:52:04.99
pagan Rome is going to
continue century after century
00:52:04.99\00:52:08.89
after century after century.
00:52:08.89\00:52:10.59
>>DAVID: Which is what you
see in Daniel 2, the iron goes
00:52:10.59\00:52:12.23
right to the end, Daniel
7, the horn goes right to the
00:52:12.23\00:52:14.66
end.
00:52:14.66\00:52:15.76
>>JEFFERY: That's the
best thing you've said all day.
00:52:15.76\00:52:17.10
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:52:17.10\00:52:19.13
>>JAMES: I don't know
whether to say thanks or...
00:52:19.13\00:52:20.90
>>DAVID: [Laughter]
00:52:20.90\00:52:22.47
Everything you said up to
that point didn't make any
00:52:22.47\00:52:23.77
sense, but that's a great point.
00:52:23.77\00:52:25.97
>>JAMES: Which also allows 2
Thessalonians to connect right
00:52:25.97\00:52:29.01
up with Daniel 2,
Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11.
00:52:29.01\00:52:31.51
>>TY: By the way, we're not
alone in this interpretation.
00:52:31.51\00:52:35.32
>>JAMES: No, there's four of us.
00:52:35.32\00:52:36.92
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:52:36.92\00:52:38.09
No, the four of us are not
alone in this interpretation,
00:52:38.09\00:52:40.89
this is a school of prophetic
interpretation that people
00:52:40.89\00:52:46.13
like Martin Luther and
John Calvin and Paul, yeah.
00:52:46.13\00:52:50.93
Well, it's usually referred
to as the historicist train of
00:52:50.93\00:52:57.97
biblical, prophetic
interpretation as opposed to
00:52:57.97\00:53:00.81
the pretorist or the futurist.
00:53:00.81\00:53:03.31
>>JEFFERY: Which used
to be the norm, right?
00:53:03.31\00:53:06.68
Used to be the norm.
00:53:06.68\00:53:08.18
>>TY: Luther and Calvin
believed, I mean, the whole
00:53:08.18\00:53:10.22
Protestant reformation was
premised on the ah-hah moment,
00:53:10.22\00:53:15.19
that wait a minute, the
church is not the church.
00:53:15.19\00:53:19.73
>>DAVID: The church is the
great apostasy according to
00:53:19.73\00:53:22.30
Daniel and by Paul.
00:53:22.30\00:53:23.26
>>TY: Calvin, Luther,
Zwingli, all these guys.
00:53:23.26\00:53:26.84
>>DAVID: You don't get, okay,
so, we're not gonna get to the
00:53:26.84\00:53:29.24
reformation 'til the time of
Wycliffe and Luther and later,
00:53:29.24\00:53:32.74
Calvin, 'til the
13th, 14th, 15th centuries.
00:53:32.74\00:53:35.18
So, we got a ways to go.
00:53:35.18\00:53:36.34
How do we get to where we
are here in the 3rd, 4th, 5th
00:53:36.34\00:53:41.75
century, that's 1,000 years of
intervening period, and here's
00:53:41.75\00:53:45.85
a very important point.
00:53:45.85\00:53:47.69
We talked about those sort
of emerging centers of Christian
00:53:47.69\00:53:50.43
influence.
00:53:50.43\00:53:51.56
You had the Jerusalem center
and then the Roman center,
00:53:51.56\00:53:53.83
Constantinople and Alexandria.
00:53:53.83\00:53:55.93
Well, one of the most
interesting things that
00:53:55.93\00:53:57.93
happens in the period of
the fourth century, early fourth
00:53:57.93\00:54:00.34
century is when Constantine
moves the seat of his empire
00:54:00.34\00:54:03.74
to Constantinople,
the City of Constantine.
00:54:03.74\00:54:06.51
Which, if you look at a map
of the spread of Christianity,
00:54:06.51\00:54:09.48
Christianity spread from
Jerusalem to the north and the
00:54:09.48\00:54:12.78
west, right, not primarily
east, even today, we talk
00:54:12.78\00:54:15.08
about Christian Europe.
00:54:15.08\00:54:17.09
Right, so the
spread was like this.
00:54:17.09\00:54:18.42
Now you just took the seat of
the empire, Rome, right in the
00:54:18.42\00:54:20.36
middle of the spread of
Christianity from Jerusalem to
00:54:20.36\00:54:23.06
the north and the west and
you just moved it 1,000 miles to
00:54:23.06\00:54:26.46
the east.
00:54:26.46\00:54:27.50
Now, you have a
single power left.
00:54:27.50\00:54:29.96
After 476,
dissolution of western Rome.
00:54:29.96\00:54:32.90
Now, you have a
single power left.
00:54:32.90\00:54:33.23
After 476,
dissolution of western Rome.
00:54:33.84\00:54:34.97
Of those sort of
competing centers of Christian
00:54:34.97\00:54:38.41
influence, Rome, for a variety
of reasons, will take, they
00:54:38.41\00:54:43.14
will fill the vacuum and
have the ascendency over the
00:54:43.14\00:54:46.58
Alexandrian interpretation
of Christianity, over the
00:54:46.58\00:54:48.92
Jerusalem
flavor of Christianity.
00:54:48.92\00:54:51.42
Rome will emerge.
00:54:51.42\00:54:52.45
But it happens incrementally.
00:54:52.45\00:54:54.29
It's not like you just
blinked, it's not like you
00:54:54.29\00:54:56.46
just closed your eyes
and there's a pope, no.
00:54:56.46\00:54:58.63
Incrementally moving into the
period of the dark ages, which
00:54:58.63\00:55:02.70
I guess we'll get into,
you open your eyes, Luther,
00:55:02.70\00:55:08.04
Wycliffe, others, oh.
00:55:08.04\00:55:09.44
Oh, okay, here we are then.
00:55:09.44\00:55:15.14
But until they have
that almost 1,000 years of
00:55:15.14\00:55:17.58
historical perspective to
look back and they had, as you
00:55:17.58\00:55:20.62
called it, the ah-hah moment.
00:55:20.62\00:55:21.95
>>TY: Realizing that there
is what I referred to a moment
00:55:21.95\00:55:27.26
ago as a grand
masquerade taking place.
00:55:27.26\00:55:29.26
>>DAVID: The way that you
said that, I love it, the thing
00:55:29.26\00:55:31.26
that says it is the thing is
not the thing, it's some other
00:55:31.26\00:55:34.10
thing.
00:55:34.10\00:55:35.06
I love that.
00:55:35.06\00:55:36.06
>>TY: That's right.
00:55:36.06\00:55:37.27
And when we say all of these
things that we're saying right
00:55:37.27\00:55:41.04
now, we wanna be reminded
of the fact that human beings,
00:55:41.04\00:55:44.91
through this whole process,
are navigating through this
00:55:44.91\00:55:49.71
history and there are just
godly, wonderful people all
00:55:49.71\00:55:53.25
along in the process,
from start to finish, and we're
00:55:53.25\00:55:56.52
dealing here with what
the bible is fingering as an
00:55:56.52\00:55:59.82
institution that occupies a
position in which the kingdom
00:55:59.82\00:56:05.69
of God is under threat
while claiming to represent the
00:56:05.69\00:56:09.23
kingdom of God.
00:56:09.23\00:56:10.23
I can't wait
until the next session.
00:56:10.23\00:56:12.23
[Music]
00:56:12.23\00:56:15.74
?usic]
00:56:17.77\00:56:19.14