Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000502A
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00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: We laid a foundation for our reformation series 00:25 that might, at first glance, seem kind of out of place. 00:28 In fact, in our discussion about it before we actually 00:32 sat at the table, we actually wondered, should we go back in 00:37 history and lay this kind of foundation? 00:39 But again, just for those who are just joining us in the 00:42 discussion and wanna know where we're coming from, it's 00:46 called the reformation series, but it might seem kinda 00:49 strange they put in number one, they watched number one, 00:51 and they think, well, where's the reformation? 00:53 Why aren't they talking about the reformation? 00:55 Well, in order to talk about the reformation, we have to 00:58 know what has gone before. 01:01 We have to understand that something was deformed for it 01:06 to need to be reformed. 01:07 And so, we're backing up in history and in our first 01:11 conversation around this table, we essentially said 01:15 that all of the history that converges at the reformation 01:23 can be looked at as a conflict between two basic ways of 01:27 thinking, two basically different ways of processing 01:32 God and reality and human beings and their relationship 01:35 with God, and what we were suggesting is that the God of 01:41 the scriptures, the God of both the Old and the New 01:43 Testament is a God of dynamic interpersonal relationship. 01:49 That that God is defined by covenant, by the idea of 01:56 relational commitment, integrity, and faithful love. 02:00 Now, where we're gonna go at this point is that we're gonna 02:03 look at a prophecy, an amazing collection of prophecies, 02:07 actually, in the book of Daniel, because the word 02:10 covenant that we introduced in our last discussion figures 02:14 prominently into the book of Daniel. 02:17 The word occurs a number of times and in the book of 02:21 Daniel, what we basically see is that covenant defines the 02:26 actions of the Messiah. 02:29 That bridge we talked about between the Old and the New 02:32 Testament. 02:33 The God of the Old Testament is defined as a God of 02:35 covenant, Jesus comes and fulfills all the promises of 02:38 the covenant. 02:39 Then, in the book of Daniel, Jesus, or the Messiah, is 02:45 defined as the one who fulfills covenant and then, 02:48 here's the part that's of interest to protestant 02:50 reformation, there's a power that is described in the book 02:54 of Daniel who aligns itself precisely against the 02:58 covenant. 02:59 It is a power that is, according to Daniel's 03:04 language, moved with rage against this idea of God as a 03:10 God with covenantal faithfulness. 03:12 It's an antinomian power. 03:13 It's a power that is against God's covenantal interactions 03:19 with human beings. 03:21 So, with that as a little bit of an introduction, let's just 03:25 look at the prophecy we're referring to in the book of 03:28 Daniel, and we're gonna look at Daniel chapter 7 and then, 03:32 we're gonna loop into chapter 8, then into chapter 9, then 03:36 also into chapter 11, and we're basically trying to pick 03:39 up the word covenant, the usage of the word covenant in 03:43 the book of Daniel, and the prophetic stage upon which 03:46 this word is being dealt with by the prophet. 03:51 So, somebody take us to chapter 7 of Daniel. 03:54 >>JAMES: Yeah, let's just touch on a few thoughts that 03:56 can kind of connect our first session together with this. 03:58 So, we talked about how God is interpersonal, and I think 04:02 that it's interesting that the setting of Daniel is such that 04:06 God is interpersonal, not just with the Hebrews, but with the 04:08 entire world, that this vision we're gonna look at here is in 04:13 the first year of King Belshazzar, who was the 04:16 grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, who Joel described as God's 04:21 man to do a certain work at a certain time in a certain way. 04:25 Remember we were talking about God has a purpose to covenant, 04:29 not to covenant, but to reveal himself and to communicate and 04:35 to be with humanity, and he has to use human people, he's 04:38 accommodating. 04:40 And that's what we see, the whole book of Daniel is set in 04:42 that environment. 04:43 >>TY: We're gonna say, he uses people we'd never use. 04:45 >>JAMES: Yeah, God is accommodating exactly because 04:49 what happens is, when God uses certain people, and Jonah is a 04:53 prime example of this, when God uses certain people, 04:56 sometimes, these people or people groups start becoming 05:01 exclusive. 05:02 They start thinking, oh, we're the special group, we're the 05:05 special people, God is only using us. 05:07 Jonah was very... 05:08 >>DAVID: Just us. 05:09 >>JAMES: Oh, man, so, God, I think the whole book of Daniel 05:13 is setting up this idea that God's covenantal relationship 05:16 is with more than just one people group. 05:19 God is actually trying to communicate who he is and what 05:23 he is and the fact that he wants to be a friend and 05:26 faithful to the whole world, and so, we find Daniel in a 05:29 very odd situation, talking about God's faithfulness and 05:33 God's goodness and God's, all this stuff, in the context of 05:37 being in a people group that look like they've just been 05:39 squashed by all the powers in the world at his time. 05:44 >>DAVID: Jerusalem is destroyed, the temple is 05:46 destroyed, but God is faithful. 05:47 >>JAMES: Yes, and it's not just one power, it's one after 05:49 another, after another, that is the setup, we've got 05:51 Babylonians, then we've got Medo-Persians, then we got the 05:53 Greeks, then we got the Romans, one after another has 05:55 basically decimated these people that God's chosen. 06:00 >>DAVID: I love that. 06:02 >>TY: Yeah, bringing up what you've brought up reminds me 06:04 of something that's been really helpful for me in 06:07 assessing history, especially in regards to the Protestant 06:10 reformation, but even in just interacting with people in 06:15 general, and it's this, that as we go through this 06:19 reformation series, we're gonna be talking about people 06:22 with names who had certain positions, theological 06:27 positions. 06:28 And I think it's important that we not judge people, but 06:33 rather judge ideas, because any given individual that we 06:40 might consider within the scope of history is going to 06:44 be an individual. 06:45 Luther, for example, Martin Luther, which is the key 06:49 figure of the Protestant reformation, is a guy that we 06:52 look at and there are points in his thinking where we might 06:56 assess and think, that's just pure gospel brilliance, and 07:01 there are other points in his thinking that we might say, 07:04 that is so unbelievable that God would even have anything 07:08 to do with this man. 07:10 How could he be the guy? 07:13 But as you keep reading Luther, you find out that 07:17 there are points in Luther's experience when Luther would 07:21 negatively assess a previous version of Luther. 07:26 And I think, around this table, even, I would assess a 07:31 version of my own thinking at one point in my experience and 07:37 I could judge those ideas as bad ideas, but I remain in 07:43 relationship with myself, obviously, and I don't cut 07:47 myself off. 07:48 So, we're gonna talk about Luther, we're gonna talk about 07:50 John Calvin, we're gonna talk about Augustan, we're gonna 07:53 talk about Plato, we're gonna talk about these historic 07:57 figures and what I've discovered is there's just 08:00 brilliance in all of them, and at that same time, there are 08:05 concepts that we would assess and say, push back on, but God 08:10 is looking from a different vantage point and knows 08:13 people's hearts and where they are in the process, so much so 08:16 that you have someone like Zwingli, for example, Ulrich 08:19 Zwingli , one of the main Protestant reformers, who 08:23 actually, at one point, put people like Plato and Socrates 08:27 and Aristotle, according to him, will be in the kingdom, 08:31 will be in heaven, and yet, from our perspective, they 08:35 knew nothing about Christ or the gospel, so how do, God's 08:39 got a way of working things out that we need to let God 08:44 work out and all we can do is judge ideas, not people. 08:48 >>DAVID: That's a great caveat. 08:50 >>TY: I mean, the first eschatological vision ever 08:54 given to a human being wasn't given to a Hebrew, it was 08:56 given to Nebuchadnezzar. 09:01 >>DAVID: Is that true? 09:02 >>TY: Yeah, chapter 2 of Daniel. 09:04 Yeah. 09:06 >>DAVID: I was just thinking, yeah, okay, fair enough, when 09:07 you just said eschatological... 09:09 >>JEFFERY: You read Genesis 3:15. 09:13 >>TY: That's eschatological. 09:14 >>JEFFERY: Because that was a Jew. 09:16 >>TY: Yeah, yeah. 09:17 >>JAMES: Give you another example of this as Luther's 09:20 commentary on Revelation, his first commentary on 09:23 Revelation, he basically said, this book doesn't belong as 09:25 part of the canon, Christ isn't even in this. 09:27 He's not even mentioned in here. 09:29 And I would take, what? 09:30 What? 09:31 Ten years later, he completely changes. 09:33 So, I like that idea that we're not looking at men, 09:37 we're not looking at the people, we're not looking at 09:39 individuals, we're looking at the truth, we're looking at 09:41 what was communicated, and we're judging and assessing 09:44 and massaging it and seeking to move it along, move it 09:48 along, move it along, and let the people who helped even us 09:52 do that, let them be part of that process, but let the 09:55 process be focused on the actual truth. 09:57 >>DAVID: I love everything that you said there. 10:00 My favorite thing that you said, Ty, in all of that was, 10:02 you hinted at it, James, as well, that I would assess 10:06 earlier versions of myself negatively. 10:10 >>JAMES: Me, too. 10:11 >>DAVID: You mean of yourself, James. 10:14 >>TY: He means of you. 10:16 >>DAVID: No, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, he's a 10:19 Christian. 10:20 You just had that great quotation, Jeffrey, a few days 10:22 ago, when you were speaking, Frank Burgess, if you have 10:25 not, what was it, acquired or... 10:28 >>JEFFERY: Discarded. 10:29 >>DAVID: ...discarded a new opinion about something major 10:31 in your life, you might check your pulse, because maybe 10:34 you're not alive anymore. 10:35 Sometimes, we have this notion, especially, this takes 10:39 place in sort of Christian circles the idea that, oh, you 10:41 changed your mind? 10:43 You, and that's the great thing about minds is that they 10:45 can be changed. 10:46 Right? 10:47 They're like tides, you can change them. 10:49 But, at some census, we hold this notion that being static 10:55 and unchanging is virtuous. 10:57 Now, there are things about which we don't wanna change 10:59 our mind, but there are things in which, if we're not 11:02 growing, if we're not... 11:03 >>JEFFERY: That's a sign of weakness, not strength. 11:05 >>DAVID: Yeah, how is that a sign of strength, where did we 11:07 get that idea? 11:08 >>TY: It's a sign of insecurity and arrogance in 11:12 insecurity, isn't it? 11:15 Because if I divulge a change in my thinking, that means I 11:19 wasn't right the first time. 11:22 [Laughter] 11:23 >>DAVID: Full possession of all knowledge of all things. 11:26 >>JAMES: I really like the way we're doing this, though, 11:29 because we're not talking about again, the individuals, 11:31 we're talking about the truth itself. 11:33 And so, that makes it a lot easier for us to be able to 11:35 switch, oh, look, I didn't see that before. 11:38 I mean, how many books have you read, and then, five years 11:40 later, you might reread it again and maybe even the 11:42 bible, and you read it again and you go, wow, I never saw 11:44 it that way before. 11:45 >>DAVID: So, let me be autobiographical, we're 11:46 talking here about Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, which we should say, 11:49 we could do the rest of the series on that, just those 11:52 prophecies. 11:53 >>JAMES: And we will. 11:54 >>DAVID: Yeah, we will, next time, let's do it, but in my 11:56 own experience, I preached and taught, for example, Daniel 8 12:01 and 9 for years, years, and what I was saying, I think, 12:07 was true in terms of the basic facticity, the events, the, 12:12 but in terms of the shape and the point, totally missing the 12:16 point, I have no problem with saying that. 12:18 Like, fully missing the covenantal, because... 12:22 >>JEFFERY: That's actually the biggest... 12:27 >>DAVID: Of course, and that's my point. 12:29 >>JEFFERY: It's not like you missed, oh, I missed that part 12:31 of it, like you missed the thing, you know, that hurts. 12:33 >>DAVID: I just rest in the confidence that the people in 12:36 the New Testament Jesus says, man, you've been reading your 12:39 book for a long time. 12:41 >>TY: It's like getting married but your wife wasn't 12:43 involved. 12:45 >>JAMES: And that was the point I was making earlier. 12:46 >>DAVID: These are those which testify of me. 12:48 >>JEFFERY: but the problem is that there's YouTube, and we 12:51 can look you up and see all the crazy things you've said. 12:53 That's the problem. 12:56 >>TY: And you. 12:57 >>DAVID: Listen, I got tattoos on me, I have no problem with 13:00 reminders that I have grown. 13:01 >>TY: Okay, so, Daniel, though. 13:03 >>DAVID: I'm balding. 13:04 >>JAMES: Those reminders run through the bible, for all of 13:09 our authors, they're there, they're humans, we see growth 13:13 in the progression of truth through the bible characters, 13:16 we see it, and of course, we see it in Luther and others. 13:20 Anyway, sorry. 13:21 >>TY: Okay, so, what's going on, first of all, in Daniel 7? 13:23 Who wants to dive into that and tell us the gist of the 13:28 picture of Daniel chapter 7? 13:30 >>DAVID: So, Daniel chapter 7 is the second major vision in 13:34 the book of Daniel, you have Daniel chapter 2, which many 13:36 might notice, just go back briefly, it's a metal man, 13:39 head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of 13:42 bronze, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay. 13:44 >>TY: That's Daniel 2. 13:45 >>DAVID: Daniel 2, so that's basically the four kingdoms 13:47 and the division of the fourth kingdom. 13:49 So, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, then the 13:51 division of Rome. 13:52 So, then you come to Daniel 7, you have something that is, in 13:54 many ways, we probably don't need to establish those 13:56 connections, but it's just a recapitulation of that. 13:58 You have the lion, the bear, the leopard, the terrible, 14:00 ferocious beast, and then the ten horns. 14:03 >>JEFFERY: With more details. 14:04 >>DAVID: Which, that's more details. 14:06 So, what you're dealing with is a historical movement from 14:09 the time of Daniel down to the end, we call that escotology, 14:12 the study of the end of time, the end of things. 14:15 >>JEFFERY: Last things. 14:16 >>DAVID: Last things. 14:17 And what you have is the lion, the bear, I think I've been 14:20 through that, so Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and 14:23 in the middle of this, this element that happens to Daniel 14:26 7, the most important element in Daniel chapter 7 is not the 14:29 lion, it's not the bear, it's not the leopard, it's this 14:31 ferocious beast, this terrible beast, out of which comes 14:34 these 10 horns and one of those horns is the point that 14:38 we're gonna get at here, I think, Ty, and that is this is 14:41 a horn, a power, that's speaking blasphemous words, 14:44 it's persecuting the saints of the most high, etcetera, 14:47 etcetera, that's the focus, and Daniel, again and again, 14:49 in Daniel 7 says, I was considering it, I was looking, 14:52 yeah, the lion was interesting, yeah, the bear 14:54 was interesting, yeah, the leopard was interesting, but 14:56 he was riveted, yeah, that's right, this little horn and 14:59 the beast out of which the horn grew, was just riveted. 15:02 And that becomes the point around which Daniel 7 orbits. 15:05 >>JEFFERY: We should actually read that verse, too. 15:07 >>TY: Yeah, read that, Jeffrey. 15:09 >>JEFFERY: You want me to jump straight to the point you just 15:12 made. 15:13 >>DAVID: Yeah, go to, go to... 15:15 >>JEFFERY: Verse 8? 15:16 >>DAVID: No, just start in 7. 15:18 >>JEFFERY: Verse 7, after this, I saw, in the night 15:21 visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, 15:25 exceedingly strong. 15:27 It had huge, iron teeth. 15:30 It was devouring, breaking in pieces and trampling the 15:34 residue with its feet. 15:35 It was different from all the beasts that were before it and 15:39 it had 10 horns. 15:41 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a 15:45 little one, coming up among them, before whom 3 of the 15:51 first horns were plucked out by the roots, and there, in 15:55 this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth 15:59 speaking pompous words. 16:01 >>TY: Okay, so then, as you go through Daniel 7, there is a 16:05 kind of repeated large pattern that takes place, in which he 16:10 returns to that little horn, and he fills out what it looks 16:13 like for it to have the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking 16:16 great things, because later on, in the passage, he says, 16:21 in verse 23, that the fourth beast shall be the fourth 16:25 kingdom on the earth, which shall be different from all 16:29 the others, different from the ones before it, and it will 16:34 devour, it will trample under its feet, so this is 16:39 describing military conquest, and then, verse 25, which gets 16:43 real explicit and says that he will speak pompous words and 16:47 then, this is added that wasn't in verses 7 and 8, 16:50 against the most high, and shall persecute the saints of 16:55 the most high, so that's a return to verses 7 and 8, but 16:59 now, it's filling out the picture, and I think what's 17:02 brilliant here, really, is that if Daniel 2, with the 17:06 metal man, with the gold, the silver, the brass, the iron, 17:09 and the ten toes, if that prophecy is being 17:15 recapitulated in chapter 7 with the lion, the bear, the 17:19 leopard, and the terrible beast, Daniel's prophecy 17:22 specifically tells us what David mentioned a minute ago, 17:27 that it's beginning with the kingdom of Babylon. 17:31 So, all you have to do is just lay your bible aside for a 17:34 second, just look at history, and history will tell you that 17:39 the kingdom of Babylon was followed by Medo-Persia, which 17:44 was followed by Greece, which was followed by the iron 17:48 monarchy of Rome, and if you keep reading history, you see 17:54 that Rome, the Roman empire gave way, just like this 17:59 prophecy says, to another configuration of power, that 18:05 according to this prophecy is different than all the others 18:08 that were before it and that power, that according to 18:11 history, that followed the pagan Roman empire was the 18:15 formation of the Roman church, the Papal Roman state, which 18:21 took up the position that had been previously occupied by 18:27 the Roman empire in its pagan phase. 18:30 So, if that trajectory is accurate and we believe it is 18:36 accurate because Daniel's prophecies have told us, hey, 18:41 everybody, we're beginning with Babylon. 18:43 >>JEFFERY: What is interesting is that each one of those 18:45 previous kingdoms were overcome, overtaken, conquered 18:48 by another kingdom, and then, that fourth one is not. 18:52 >>TY: No, it actually slips into the vacancy that's 18:58 created by the Roman emperors. 19:00 >>JEFFERY: It's almost like a continuation. 19:02 >>TY: It is, that's why it's one beast. 19:05 >>DAVID: If you go back to Daniel 2, the iron goes right 19:09 through to the toes. 19:10 There's never, when iron appears, it does not... 19:13 >>JEFFERY: On the clay, but it doesn't... 19:15 >>DAVID: And this horn does not detach from the beast, it 19:18 grows out of the fourth beast. 19:20 >>TY: Okay, we need to take a break, but we've already 19:23 established a crucial foundation for where we're 19:26 going. 19:27 There is a succession of empires brought to view in 19:30 this prophecy and it lands somewhere in history with a 19:34 particular power that tells us exactly what the great falling 19:39 away, the great apostasy looks like that necessitates the 19:43 protestant reformation, which is where we're going. 19:46 So, let's just take a break and we'll come right back. 19:48 [Music] 20:01 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 20:03 Well, you're certainly invited. 20:04 Visit our website at lightbearers.org. 20:07 In fact, you may wanna make it your homepage because we're 20:10 always adding something new to strengthen your relationship 20:13 with Jesus. 20:15 At lightbearers.org, you'll find thought-provoking blogs 20:19 and verse-by-verse bible studies on a variety of vital 20:22 topics. 20:23 Our online resource center has an excellent lineup of books, 20:28 CDs, and DVDs that present God's word 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deductible receipt. 21:36 We're here to serve and equip you in sharing your passion 21:40 for Christ and the global advancement of his benevolent 21:43 kingdom. 21:45 Lightbearers.org. 21:47 There's room at the Light Bearers table for you. 21:49 There's room at the Light Bearers table for you. 21:52 [Music] 21:59 >>TY: So, for those who might not be familiar with the 22:00 prophecies of Daniel, we probably covered that really 22:03 fast, but what we wanna simply point out is that the book of 22:10 Daniel opens up a series of prophecies that are covering the 22:13 same basic period of history and dealing with the same basic 22:18 powers in history. 22:19 That's not to say that there aren't other empires, other 22:22 places in the world, it's just saying that Daniel is saying, 22:26 hey, there is going to be a succession of empires and the 22:31 whole point, as James called our attention to last segment, 22:36 the whole point is to really get to that power that most of 22:42 the time is given to. 22:44 Babylon is just mentioned in some of its characteristics. 22:48 Medo-Persia is mentioned with two or three of its 22:50 characteristics. 22:51 Greece is mentioned with a few of its characteristics, but 22:55 Daniel, even himself, at one point, says, I want to know 22:59 the truth about that little horn power, that's the one 23:04 that stands out in his thinking, he's like, tell me 23:07 about that. 23:09 And so, most of the details in chapter 7 and chapter 8 are 23:13 about that power, so what is this power, first of all, 23:19 which power, what power is this in history? 23:22 Which we don't have to do a lot of guesswork, it's 23:24 definitely the Papal Roman empire, how do we know that 23:27 for certainty? 23:28 Well, within Daniel's own context, we begin with 23:30 Babylon, again, lay the bible aside, so this isn't just an 23:35 internal, biblical idea, the bible is telling us what 23:40 actually happened in history. 23:41 That power followed that one, which followed that one, which 23:44 followed that one, and that one, the Roman empire, gave 23:50 space for the continuation of the Roman empire in a new 23:55 form, in a new form. 23:58 Pagan to Papal. 23:59 >>DAVID: And when we say gave space, historically, what that 24:02 looks like, you know, this is symbolic language, what that 24:05 looks like in that particular case, the fourth beast seating 24:08 ground or giving space to the little horn, is what we would 24:12 call the dissolution of the western Roman empire, right, 24:14 by the time you get toward the end of the 5th century, Rome, 24:17 as we think about it, Rome in the movies, it's gone. 24:21 It's fragmented, which you know, is hugely significant, 24:24 because what you have in Daniel 2 is the feet of iron 24:27 and clay, fragmentation, and what you have here in Daniel 7 24:29 is the beast that has 10 horns, fragmentation. 24:32 So, that's what it looks like, historically speaking, is you 24:35 have the dissolution of a western Roman empire, which 24:38 creates a power vacuum, right? 24:40 The homogenizing influence in the ancient world up to that 24:43 point was the imperial reality of Rome. 24:48 When that's gone, what is the thing, well, about 150 years 24:53 before, a fellow by the name of Constantine the Great had 24:56 converted to Christianity, he had become the first of the 25:00 Christian Roman emperors. 25:01 So, that's AD 312, when you get down to AD 476, and now, 25:06 western Rome is gone as an empire, there is still an 25:10 adhering, gluing, homogenizing, maybe that's not 25:12 the best word, but there's something that's giving a 25:15 connectivity to what had been the Roman empire, and that's 25:17 the church, that's the church. 25:20 So, now you've transitioned, this is a little future, but 25:24 you've come into what's called the holy Roman empire. 25:27 Right, out of just what we, Rome, to the holy Roman 25:30 empire. 25:31 >>JEFFERY: It's Rome 2.0. 25:32 >>DAVID: Rome 2.0. 25:33 >>JEFFERY: And it carries over some of the characteristics 25:34 from the imperial Rome. 25:35 >>JAMES: Just like the prophecy predicts. 25:36 The prophecy predicts that this fourth kingdom would be 25:38 the fourth kingdom, wouldn't be a fifth kingdom or a 6th 25:41 kingdom, and so, the holy Roman empire, to connect it 25:43 with a prophecy, it continues to be, it is a continuation 25:47 oft hat fourth power. 25:48 >>JEFFERY: And it's the only one that contains, correct me 25:50 if I'm wrong, but there's spiritual stuff, religious 25:52 stuff. 25:53 >>JAMES: That's why it says it's diverse. 25:55 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, it's wrapped up in that last one, and you 25:57 don't really see that in the first 3. 25:59 >>DAVID: Well, Ty alluded to that, when you get to verse 25 26:01 of Daniel chapter 7, it doesn't just say he will speak 26:03 pompous words, period, he will speak pompous words against 26:06 the most high. 26:07 Not just that he will be a persecuting power, but that he 26:09 will persecute the saints of the most high, and then, this 26:12 is where it gets really pregnant, he shall intend to 26:14 change times and laws. 26:16 Well, who is, yeah, exactly, of the most high. 26:20 The saints will be given into his hand and he will rule for 26:22 a time, a time and a half, and time. 26:24 You know, by the way, that there is a celestial dimension 26:27 to what's happening, you're moving from the terrestrial, 26:29 or horizontal, to the vertical, the celestial. 26:31 You know that because in Daniel 7, repeatedly, the 26:34 thing that brings an end to the career of this 26:39 prosecutorial, blasphemous career of this power is the 26:41 judgment, the heavily judgment seat, it's not another 26:44 military power that comes in like you have with the 26:47 succession of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece. 26:49 Verse 26 says, but, the court will be seated and they, that 26:52 is to say, the heavenly court will take away his dominion, 26:55 to consume it and destroy it forever. 26:57 So, you transition, I love what you say there, Jeffrey, 26:59 from a mere horizontal conquering of nationalistic 27:03 kingdoms to a vertical orientation toward God, 27:07 blasphemy against God, against God's law, against God's 27:09 times, against God's people. 27:11 And no power on earth is gonna say, okay, we're, no, the 27:15 heavenly court convenes and says, okay, we got work to do. 27:18 >>TY: It's amazing. 27:20 When you realize this, it's so huge, because essentially what 27:26 we're saying is that Daniel's prophecies foretold the 27:31 formation of apostate Christianity. 27:35 >>DAVID: We gotta unpack that, that's true. 27:40 What you're saying is exactly true, but I think we need to 27:44 put flesh on that a little bit. 27:46 >>TY: Put flesh on it. 27:47 4>>DAVID: Okay, so, I just mentioned Constantine the 27:49 Great. 27:51 My understanding, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, 27:53 or at least modified on this is that you have, during the 27:56 apostolic period, so when we say that, we mean, first 27:58 century Christianity. 28:00 Apostolic period, book of Acts. 28:02 Then, you move into the second and third centuries and this 28:05 is what sometimes called the antinicine period, or the 28:08 early period, early, early Christianity. 28:11 >>TY: Post apostolic. 28:12 >>DAVID: All the apostles are dead, post apostolic, but we 28:14 are not yet to the conversion of Constantine, that period 28:17 there, right, that's gonna happen at the beginning of the 28:19 fourth century. 28:20 So, that period there is a period in which the church is 28:23 going reasonably well, I think, by comparison. 28:26 Right? 28:27 Things are going well, there's baptisms, there's conversions, 28:29 but as soon as we get to the conversion of Constantine, 28:31 this is giant, you now transition, the church now 28:34 transitions from a persecuted minority in the Roman empire, 28:39 overnight, you are now, you are the official empire, you 28:45 are the religion of the empire, you go from a 28:47 percentage of population like 3 to 2 to 4 percent of the 28:52 Roman empire and now, you're like 70 percent, because this 28:55 is now the favored church, this is now the religion of 28:57 Christianity and you could say it this way, in those early 29:00 formative centuries, first, second, and third, the 29:03 Christian church survived persecution. 29:06 They survived adversity, they survived obscurity. 29:08 Could they survive popularity? 29:10 >>TY: Yeah, that's the question. 29:13 >>DAVID: Right, so, now, all of a sudden, the Christian 29:14 faith is the faith. 29:16 >>JEFFERY: Now, ministers are being funded by the empire, 29:19 now churches are being funded, now there's no martyrs, so it 29:23 just totally changes the entire identity and culture of 29:28 Christianity. 29:29 >>DAVID: It just changes the whole shape, the culture of 29:31 Christianity is shaped. 29:32 It goes from persecuted to politically powerful. 29:35 >>TY: Right, right. 29:36 So, you have the Roman empire, which is persecuting apostolic 29:40 Christianity. 29:41 And then, suddenly, you have Christianity now becoming the 29:47 Roman empire, persecuting Christianity. 29:53 It's just this major transition of power in which 29:59 the Christian church is undergoing monumental changes 30:03 on a political and ideological level, and on a theological 30:07 level. 30:09 And the theology is the crucial thing that Daniel has 30:13 in mind, because if you continue marching through 30:16 Daniel's prophecies, you see in chapter 8, the same little 30:20 horn power described as growing up to the hosts of 30:23 heaven. 30:24 This power casts some of the hosts to the ground, again, 30:27 it's persecuting the saints, yeah, I'm in verse 10 of 30:31 chapter 8 of Daniel. 30:33 And then, it says, in verse 11 that he exalts himself even as 30:36 high as the prince of the hosts, that's the Messiah, and 30:39 then, it says that he casts the daily and the sanctuary to 30:44 the ground. 30:45 In verse 12, it says that he casts the truth, that's the 30:49 gospel, to the ground, and he prospered in doing it. 30:53 I mean, the words, words cannot be more explicit. 30:58 You have here Rome 2.0 taking on a Christian guise, becoming 31:05 Christianity of the popular empire, and in the process of 31:10 practicing and prospering, it is taking the truth of the 31:14 gospel, and back in chapter 7, verse 25, the truth of God's 31:18 law, the law and the gospel, and bringing those things down 31:23 in people's understandings and estimations. 31:26 >>DAVID: Morphing them. 31:27 >>TY: It's just amazing. 31:28 And then, in chapter 9 of Daniel, Daniel's prophecy 31:33 backs up, check this out, and describes the time when Jesus 31:38 is on the scene himself, in chapter 9 and verses 24-27. 31:42 is on the scene himself, in chapter 9 and verses 24-27. 31:44 When Jesus is on the scene, that's during the pagan phase 31:48 of the Roma empire. 31:49 Jesus was crucified on a Roman cross. 31:53 >>DAVID: Stood before a Roman procheuranart. 31:55 >>TY: That's right. 31:56 So, when Jesus comes, this is fascinating, when Jesus comes, 32:01 he's specifically described in chapter 9, verse 25, as 32:06 Messiah the prince, which is the language that was used 32:11 similarly in chapter 8, okay, that this power of the future 32:15 to him, yeah, and then, in chapter 9:27, it says that the 32:20 primary action of Messiah is to confirm the, singularly, 32:26 the covenant, and in the Hebrew context, that's 32:28 essentially saying that when the Messiah came to this 32:32 world, his whole mission was to confirm as true the 32:40 character of God's covenantal love toward the human rights. 32:44 >>DAVID: The hesed we talked about. 32:46 >>TY: So, he proved faithful to the promises that were made 32:50 through all the prophets. 32:52 through all the prophets. 32:53 So, that's the key characteristic in Daniel of 32:56 the Messiah. 32:57 He fulfills covenant. 32:58 Then, when you come to chapter 11, that same power is 33:02 described under different language, but first, we have 33:05 an actual description, this is fascinating, chapter 11, verse 33:09 22 describes the crucifixion of Jesus and specifically 33:13 names the one who is crucified the prince of the covenant. 33:17 So, that's his identifying nomenclature, this is the one 33:22 who proves the faithfulness of God's covenantal love to the 33:26 human race and then, in chapter 11, verse 30, it says 33:33 that that same power back there that we talked about in 33:36 chapter 7 and chapter 8 now postures itself with rage 33:41 against the holy covenant and he's going to do damage, and 33:45 verse 32, those who do wickedly against the covenant, 33:50 he shall corrupt with flattery and this is the bridge, as I 33:54 understand it, you guys correct me if I'm wrong here, 33:56 this is the bridge between pagan Rome and Papal Rome. 34:01 This is describing both the pagan phase and the papal 34:04 phase are against the covenant. 34:07 Right? 34:08 >>DAVID: Correct. 34:09 >>TY: And the pagan phase, secular Rome, if you will, 34:13 crucifies the prince of the covenant. 34:15 And the papal phase takes up the cause of the pagan Roman 34:22 empire that crucified the covenant Messiah by continuing 34:28 against the people of God, the constitution, against the law 34:32 of God, and against the covenant. 34:34 >>DAVID: Against the sanctuary, against the truth. 34:36 >>TY: So, that's just a lot of language. 34:38 For those who are sitting in with us here in this 34:40 conversation, I just took, you know, the big sweep of the 34:46 usage of covenant. 34:48 Now, maybe we should slow down, back up now, and say, 34:53 okay, so what exactly are we saying took place in history? 34:59 That's what the prophecy says. 35:00 So, in real time in history, what actually took place? 35:04 >>DAVID: I love the way you're saying that, Ty, because, you 35:08 said something there that is so true and that is that 35:10 Daniel's primary concern is what we would call a 35:13 theological concern. 35:14 Like, this is all, this is the language of theology, 35:17 blasphemy, waging war against God, against his law, against 35:20 time, against the covenant, that's all theological 35:24 language, so I like the idea here that the basic 35:28 orientation of heaven to what's happening here is not 35:30 militaristic, it's not national, it's not horizontal, 35:34 it's vertical. 35:35 >>JEFFERY: Those are just manifestations of the 35:36 vertical. 35:37 >>DAVID: Those are manifestations of a larger, 35:37 spiritual reality that's taking place. 35:39 That's key to bear in mind. 35:42 And the text goes to great lengths to communicate that 35:45 transition from the terrestrial to the celestial, 35:48 from the, you know, horizontal to the vertical. 35:50 It does that, you know, in really clever ways in Daniel 35:53 7, which we sort of looked at there against blasphemy, 35:56 against, but even in Daniel 8, you have those first three 35:59 powers, they're moving north, south, east, west, these sort 36:02 of directions, and then, all of a sudden, I think you 36:04 actually read this for us, Ty, in 8:10 or 8:11, he magnified 36:07 himself to the prince of the hosts, that's up. 36:09 That's up. 36:10 How do you do that? 36:11 >>JEFFERY: Well, we've been talking about how... 36:14 >>TY: It's the system. 36:16 >>JEFFERY: ...what needs to be reformed, we're talking about 36:18 the reformation and that implies that something was 36:20 deformed. 36:23 >>DAVID: I'm sorry, could you just start that over again. 36:25 >>JEFFERY: In our discussion in framing this whole series, 36:29 we're talking about the reformation, but that implies 36:32 something was deformed, and so, in this sweep that we're 36:35 doing, this prophetic sweep, it would be helpful to, okay, 36:39 what does that mean, what are we saying? 36:41 What fell, what was the fall? 36:43 Right? 36:44 In Christianity that we're describing and this whole idea 36:48 of horizontal and now it's pointing up toward God, it 36:52 sounds like, in some way, it's the repositioning of what's at 36:55 the heart of Christianity, and now, it seems that man is 37:00 slowly usurping where God's place was originally. 37:06 Is that a fair, just basically foundational way to explain. 37:12 What happened? 37:13 Well, what happened was there were different dynamics and 37:16 processes that took place where man was slowly 37:20 gravitating towards the center where God really belongs and 37:23 out of that flow many different theological, 37:28 sociological, political, all of this really flows from that 37:32 one truth. 37:33 >>DAVID: And when we come back, we'll take a break here, 37:35 when we come back, I wanna talk about how that happened. 37:37 How do you get that more man-centered, human-centered, 37:41 what does that look like? 37:42 You're exactly correct. 37:43 The prophecies are intimating that. 37:45 What did that look like down on the ground level? 37:48 >>TY: Alright, we'll come back in a minute, then. 37:50 [Music] 38:03 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary 38:06 that traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women 38:10 who encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 38:13 literature. 38:14 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to 38:20 Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 38:27 Once again, to receive your free copy of A Light in 38:30 Zambia, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 38:37 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 38:43 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 38:46 [Music] 38:53 >>TY: So, we're in Daniel chapter 7, we looped into 38:55 chapter 8, we went into chapter 9, we went into 11, 38:58 that's a lot of stuff that we just covered, especially for 39:03 those who are sitting in on this conversation with us, but 39:07 we really can just boil it down to a very simple idea. 39:10 Daniel's prophecies are telling us that there will be 39:13 a succession of empires in history that will land with a 39:17 final empire that will align itself against God. 39:22 That's essentially what Daniel's prophecies are 39:24 telling us and it will align itself against God in very, 39:28 very specific ways that are named. 39:31 It will align itself against the covenant and the covenant 39:36 in scripture is a really big idea that includes the gospel, 39:41 it includes the law of God, it includes the entire package of 39:45 God's faithfulness and the way he relates to people. 39:49 So, essentially, there's a power that's aligning itself 39:52 against what God is doing in history. 39:55 And it's setting up a parallel, an optional system. 40:00 >>JEFFERY: I think what's interesting about that is when 40:03 you say, against God, it doesn't necessarily have to go 40:06 on the offensive, all it has to do is meddle with the fact 40:12 that God is central to this and begin to replace it with 40:16 man. 40:17 >>DAVID: That's how you end it. 40:18 >>JEFFERY: By default, that is going against God. 40:21 >>DAVID: So, speak to that. 40:22 >>JEFFERY: Well, we keep emphasizing it's a theological 40:24 matter, it's a theological matter, so the power that's 40:28 being described, we're not looking for something that's 40:30 actively going and attacking God, per se, we're looking for 40:34 something that, by nature of its theological orientation, 40:39 obscures the centrality of God. 40:42 >>DAVID: And of God's covenantal faithfulness. 40:44 >>JEFFERY: Yeah, by blurring the lines between man and God. 40:48 So, that's where the attack really is at. 40:51 >>DAVID: Okay, so maybe this is where you wanna go, maybe 40:52 it's not where you wanna go, but my understanding of how 40:54 that worked, historically speaking, go back to the 40:57 conversion of Constantine, so, actually, lemme just go back 41:00 before that. 41:02 The Christian movement grew rapidly, we see that in the 41:06 book of Acts, we have 3,000, 4,000 being baptized. 41:08 So, there is a growth there, but relative to the larger 41:11 Roman empire, it was, you wouldn't say insignificant, 41:14 but it wasn't like, whoa, these Christians are 41:16 everywhere, they were a fairly small power, right? 41:19 Until, or a fairly small entity, power's the wrong 41:21 word. 41:22 Until you get to the conversion of Constantine, and 41:24 I think I mentioned that before. 41:26 You go from a very small percentage, 2-4 percent, I'm 41:28 talking Jews and Christians both, and now, all of a sudden 41:30 you're 60-70 percent of the Roman empire is now Christian. 41:33 Okay, well, now, just by virtue of that, bishops and 41:38 archbishops and people that occupy spiritual positions, 41:41 now just have more authority, they just have more influence 41:46 in these given areas and there were, in sort of the history 41:49 of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th century Christianity, you had emerging 41:54 centers of influence. 41:55 So, one of those centers was Jerusalem, for obvious 41:58 reasons. 41:59 Another emerging center is Rome. 42:02 Also for obvious reasons. 42:03 Alexandria, later Constantinople. 42:06 These are your major, what, bishoprics, is that the term? 42:11 Bishoprics, that's the, these are your centers of Christian 42:13 influence. 42:14 Because they didn't have like what we have today, you know, 42:16 telephones and Instagram and Facebook and easy 42:20 communication, each of these areas took on its own flavor, 42:24 its own sort of, it was adding its own look, its own feel, 42:29 its own flavor or seasonings to the Christian faith, and in 42:32 that sort of fraternal competition to place their 42:37 stamp on what Christianity looked like, Rome will emerge. 42:43 It won't be the church in Jerusalem, it won't be the 42:45 church in Constantinople, it won't be the church in 42:47 Alexandria, Rome will emerge, and in the emergence of Rome, 42:51 as the church is growing, you go from, hey, that guy's the 42:55 pastor, the, now you have bishops. 42:57 Then, because Christianity was mainly an urban movement, 43:01 right, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries, this is an urban 43:03 movement, not a rural movement, now you have, 6, 7, 43:06 8, 9, 10, 11 bishops, 12 bishops in a town, in a city. 43:11 Well, now you need an archbishop, somebody who 43:14 oversees and very subtly, but almost necessarily, you have 43:19 the emergence of a very strong hierarchal system. 43:22 Okay? 43:23 Now, by the time this works its way out, you get to the 43:26 5th and 6th centuries, we're gonna end up with a head of 43:29 all of the heads of the heads of the... 43:32 >>JEFFERY: And the point there, David, is why follow 43:35 that model? 43:36 Because what example did the church draw from? 43:40 In its religious phase, what example would papal Rome draw 43:44 from in order to structure the church? 43:47 It would draw from imperial Rome. 43:49 It would draw from Caesar's realm and kingdom, and so, you 43:53 have these systems of power that we're saying there's a 43:57 blurry line between pagan and papal. 44:00 So, this concept just gets transferred over to the 44:07 Christianity version of Rome, and so, you see the same power 44:10 structures, also, the same idea transferred. 44:13 >>DAVID: So, for example, when Constantine converts, and I 44:15 use conversion in quotations here because there's 44:18 historical debate about what the nature of that conversion 44:21 was. 44:22 But when he converts, he now rules the bishops of 44:27 Christianity in an analogous way, or in a similar way to 44:30 the way that he rules his procurators, governors of the 44:33 empire. 44:34 So, now, a byproduct of the conversion of Constantine is 44:38 the mingling, almost incarnationally in one person, 44:41 Constantine in this case, of church and state. 44:44 That will become, that is the, here are the Christian 44:47 churches catching a cold that it still has, to this day. 44:52 >>TY: And what you're describing as that cold, a 44:55 minute ago, the way you said it was really helpful for me, 44:58 and that is that suddenly, Christianity possesses power 45:02 that it never had before, and that's what Daniel's getting 45:05 at. 45:06 Daniel is saying not only does the Christian church begin to 45:09 have power it never had before, but it begins to use 45:13 that power in the way that the Roman empire used power and 45:18 that's in this language that it spoke pompous words against 45:22 the most high, persecuted the saints of the most high God, 45:25 and changed the times and laws of the most high God. 45:29 So, in other words, the Christian church begins to use 45:33 the power of forced coercion, the sword, in order to enforce 45:40 its belief systems. 45:41 So, now, you have this very strange situation in which, 45:48 see if this makes sense, the covenant that comes to us 45:54 through the line of the law and the prophets Hebrew 45:56 thought is by definition reciprocal love, faithfulness 46:03 from God eliciting faithfulness in response on a 46:08 free will basis, and suddenly, now we have a power that is 46:13 displacing covenantal reciprocity with God, with 46:19 coercion and force and the threat of punishment if you 46:24 don't comply with God. 46:27 So, now, yeah, so, now, by the use of the sword, by the use 46:33 of force, military, what's happening is the covenant is 46:38 in fact being destroyed in the minds of people. 46:44 That's where its' taking place like you were saying earlier, 46:46 Jeffrey, it's in the minds of the people that they're seeing 46:50 God now in a different light. 46:51 He used to be a God of covenantal faithfulness, 46:54 seeking free response. 46:55 Now, he's a God who's standing over with the sword and 46:58 saying, convert or die. 47:00 >>DAVID: One of the very first things that Constantine did, 47:02 and I keep coming back to him, maybe 'cause I know most about 47:05 him and that's sort of the area of church history that 47:07 I'm most familiar with. 47:09 But one of the very first things that he did, he felt 47:11 that he had been called by God, and there's debate about 47:14 whether or not, he didn't even renounce all of his other 47:16 various Gods, but that's beside the point. 47:18 He, we need to unite Christianity and so, they 47:22 convened the council of Nicaea, the first, and some 47:25 would say, the most definitive council in the history of 47:28 Christianity, AD 325. 47:29 And the purpose, this is coming off of that, the 47:34 purpose, the primary purpose is to get unified creedily, 47:38 doctrinally, on, you know, the point, there's a number of 47:40 points, but in particular the relationship of Jesus to the 47:42 Father, so that they could color people outside of the 47:46 lines. 47:49 And the implication is... 47:50 >>TY: That's heresy, that's heresy, that's heresy, that's 47:52 heresy, yeah. 47:53 >>DAVID: So, you see that it's not free will, it's not 47:55 voluntary, it's not growth that we talked about at the 47:58 beginning of this session, it's compulsory, it's 48:02 orthodox, it's dogmatic, it's, there's no choice, what? 48:05 And now, because you have that whole witches brew, that 48:10 mingling of the church with the state, hey, what do you 48:14 mean he believes the wrong thing? 48:16 Bring him over. 48:17 Right? 48:18 You're just importing that way, that militaristic 48:20 coercive way of dealing with spiritual matters, and the 48:23 language I'm using here is that Christianity caught a 48:26 cold that it will have all through the Christian empire 48:31 period, all through what we refer to as the medieval 48:33 period, all through the modern period, even now into the 48:35 post-modern period. 48:36 >>TY: Yeah, it showed up among the protestant reformers 48:40 themselves who were struggling to understand grace and love 48:44 and freedom and were on a course in that direction, but 48:49 themselves were engaged in persecution of those who 48:53 didn't agree with their particular formulation of 48:57 theology, and we have a manifestation of that today in 49:02 what is oftentimes referred to as the Christian right, which 49:07 is really no longer a thing, presently, that language isn't 49:10 being used so much, but this idea that Christianity 49:14 constitutes a political voting block that can impose upon the 49:20 broader culture its will by political process. 49:25 So, it's another manifestation. 49:27 >>DAVID: This is probably, we're gonna get there 49:29 eventually, but the reason that, the religious right of 49:33 the, you know, Christian right has ceased to exist in some, 49:36 you know, that language isn't really the language. 49:38 That's only by virtue of the times in which we live. 49:41 There, if people could have the authority, oh, hello, of 49:45 course they would. 49:46 So, it's just a product of the times in which we live that we 49:49 don't see the manifestation of that basic spirit of how the 49:53 church relates to the state in relationship to others. 49:56 >>JEFFERY: As in Augustine, is Constantine. 49:58 Constantine shows up and there it is. 50:00 >>TY: The difference between the covenantal God in 50:03 scripture and everything else that we're talking about that 50:07 Daniel's prophesying of, is that God possesses power, 50:12 holds it in reserve in favor of freedom so that love can 50:16 exist. 50:17 Whereas the thing that Daniel's foretelling is can 50:23 any human organization or institution or system or 50:27 power, can any human organization possess power and 50:31 refrain from using it to force conscience? 50:34 refrain from using it to force conscience? 50:36 [Laughter] 50:37 >>DAVID: History would say no. 50:38 >>TY: History would say no. 50:40 As soon as you have the power, you want to encroach, yeah. 50:44 >>DAVID: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 50:46 >>TY: Yeah. 50:48 >>DAVID: What I love about this and I'm, I guess all of 50:50 us here, all of us here at this table converts to the 50:53 Christian faith, right? 50:55 In other words, not raised in strong Christian homes, right? 50:58 For me, back in 1996, 1997, when I'm coming to faith, 51:04 about 20 years ago, the thing that perhaps more than 51:08 anything that just impressed me, that just settled on my 51:10 mind were these prophecies about the shape of history. 51:15 This is what history will look like, it will be shaped like 51:19 this. 51:21 Okay, the prophecies of Daniel, for example, given 51:22 some 500-600 years before the time of Jesus, okay, Jesus is 51:27 2,000 years ago, here we are, so you're talking 2600 years 51:30 of human years, 2500-2600 years of human history and 51:34 scripture is saying, this is the shape, look for this 51:36 shape, and so, we're talking around with a sort of 51:38 template, saying, oh. 51:40 >>TY: Yeah, and sure enough, it shows up. 51:42 >>DAVID: Come on. 51:45 We were talking earlier before the session started, Jeffrey 51:48 and I, I think one of you might've been in that as well, 51:50 about how people, in various, you know, sort of scholastic 51:53 and academic circles deny the prophetic intentionality of 51:57 the book of Daniel. 51:58 They say, now, come on, there's no prophecies there, 52:00 that's not, you believe that? 52:01 But you know, for me, forgive me for being, you know, maybe 52:04 a bit of a naivety here, but the proof is in the pudding. 52:08 You know, it's like, this is what history will look like. 52:11 And here we are, with the luxury as we have of 52:13 historical perspective, and that is what history looks 52:16 like? 52:17 it's just a happy coincidence? 52:19 And somebody could say, well, that's just you're 52:21 interpretation, but as we're gonna see in this series, that 52:23 interpretation has been the interpretation of people down 52:26 through the ages. 52:27 This is not just something that David, Jeffrey, James, 52:29 and Ty came up with. 52:30 That feel for the shape of human history from something 52:33 formed, something deformed, something reformed, this is 52:37 mind blowing. 52:38 >>TY: And just, internally, in Daniel itself, as we already 52:42 mentioned before, but it bears repeating, Daniel's prophecies 52:46 specifically name and identify Babylon as the first power in 52:50 the succession of powers. 52:52 So, again, you can back up in the bible. 52:55 It tells you where to start. 52:57 It says, Babylon. 52:59 It actually names Medo-Persia. >>DAVID: And then it says Greece 53:02 [Laughter] 53:03 >>JEFFERY: He's basically saying, when you get to the 53:04 library, start in this aisle. 53:06 >>TY: That's right, yeah. 53:08 >>TY: Which means that if you follow the succession of powers 53:11 through, you end up with what Daniel describes as a power 53:17 that has certain characteristics that aligns 53:20 itself against the activities of God in the world through 53:24 his church. 53:25 >>DAVID: And the shorthand for that is covenant. 53:30 The shorthand, that's how we're using it in here, the 53:32 shorthand for God's activities in the world, whether Old 53:34 Testament or New Testament in Christ, covenant. 53:37 That's what we mean. 53:38 >>TY: And shorthand for the activities of this power 53:41 against God, rage against the covenant. 53:45 It's diametrically opposed to God relating to people in this 53:52 dynamic, interactive, reciprocal manner in which 53:57 love is sustained as the connection between God and his 54:00 creatures. 54:01 >>DAVID: We sometimes refer to that as the love, risk, 54:03 freedom, responsibility paradigm. 54:05 The idea that, you know, you have to have freedom in order 54:07 to have love, you have to have risk in order to have freedom, 54:10 this idea that God is relating to us, as we talked about in 54:14 the first session, I loved that, you know, Abraham, he's 54:16 coming down, there's this accommodationist principle, 54:18 he's with us, he's proximate to us, he's adjacent to us, 54:24 this notion, it's so interesting because not only 54:28 with the sword, but with the pen, we're gonna see 54:31 scholastically, that notion is gonna be, no, God is not next 54:36 to, adjacent, approximate, he is, so there's gonna be a war 54:41 against Christianity on so many levels. 54:43 And the mind blowing thing is that it will come at the hands 54:48 of the Christian church. 54:50 That's the bombshell. 54:51 >>JEFFERY: That's the bombshell he's pointing to 54:53 here, isn't it? 54:55 The issue is within, not without. 54:57 >>TY: Yeah, Daniel actually foretells the formation of 55:02 fallen Christianity occupying the position of imperial Rome 55:10 and the building of this monolithic system that exists 55:15 in history, plain for anybody to see, there it is, for over 55:19 1,000 years, doing certain actions in history like 55:24 persecuting in the name of Jesus, like speaking great 55:29 words of theological pronouncements that are 55:34 against, directly against the principles of the gospel. 55:38 >>DAVID: And in our next session, we're gonna go to a 55:40 New Testament passage that is based on, riveted to Daniel 55:45 7,8,9, and 11, in the writings of Paul, where this isn't just 55:49 Jeffrey, David, James, Ty, Paul is gonna say, hey, that 55:52 whole Daniel thing? 55:53 You need to understand that. 55:55 That's the shape of what the Christian church looks like, 55:58 or what this power looks like through the ages. 56:00 >>TY: So, I guess we've titled this session rage against the 56:06 covenant, grounded in Daniel, and we have allowed the 56:10 prophet to open before our understanding a clear sense of 56:15 where we are in history prior to the launching of the 56:20 Protestant reformation. 56:21 So, next session is going to be exciting. 56:23 >>DAVID: Explosive. 56:26 [Music] 56:35 蛂usic] |
Revised 2018-01-17