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>>TY: We laid a foundation
for our reformation series
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that might, at first glance,
seem kind of out of place.
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In fact, in our discussion
about it before we actually
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sat at the table, we actually
wondered, should we go back in
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history and lay
this kind of foundation?
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But again, just for those
who are just joining us in the
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discussion and wanna know
where we're coming from, it's
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called the reformation
series, but it might seem kinda
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strange they put in number
one, they watched number one,
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and they think, well,
where's the reformation?
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Why aren't they
talking about the reformation?
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Well, in order to talk about
the reformation, we have to
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know what has gone before.
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We have to understand that
something was deformed for it
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to need to be reformed.
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And so, we're backing up
in history and in our first
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conversation around this
table, we essentially said
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that all of the history that
converges at the reformation
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can be looked at as a conflict
between two basic ways of
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thinking, two basically
different ways of processing
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God and reality and human
beings and their relationship
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with God, and what we were
suggesting is that the God of
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the scriptures, the God
of both the Old and the New
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Testament is a God of dynamic
interpersonal relationship.
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That that God is defined
by covenant, by the idea of
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relational commitment,
integrity, and faithful love.
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Now, where we're gonna go at
this point is that we're gonna
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look at a prophecy, an amazing
collection of prophecies,
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actually, in the book
of Daniel, because the word
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covenant that we introduced
in our last discussion figures
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prominently into
the book of Daniel.
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The word occurs a number
of times and in the book of
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Daniel, what we basically
see is that covenant defines the
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actions of the Messiah.
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That bridge we talked about
between the Old and the New
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Testament.
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The God of the Old
Testament is defined as a God of
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covenant, Jesus comes and
fulfills all the promises of
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the covenant.
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Then, in the book of Daniel,
Jesus, or the Messiah, is
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defined as the one who
fulfills covenant and then,
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here's the part that's
of interest to protestant
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reformation, there's a power
that is described in the book
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of Daniel who aligns
itself precisely against the
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covenant.
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It is a power that
is, according to Daniel's
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language, moved with rage
against this idea of God as a
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God with
covenantal faithfulness.
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It's an antinomian power.
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It's a power that is against
God's covenantal interactions
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with human beings.
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So, with that as a little bit
of an introduction, let's just
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look at the prophecy we're
referring to in the book of
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Daniel, and we're gonna look
at Daniel chapter 7 and then,
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we're gonna loop into chapter
8, then into chapter 9, then
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also into chapter 11, and
we're basically trying to pick
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up the word covenant, the
usage of the word covenant in
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the book of Daniel, and
the prophetic stage upon which
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this word is being
dealt with by the prophet.
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So, somebody take us
to chapter 7 of Daniel.
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>>JAMES: Yeah, let's just
touch on a few thoughts that
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can kind of connect our first
session together with this.
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So, we talked about how God
is interpersonal, and I think
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that it's interesting that the
setting of Daniel is such that
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God is interpersonal, not just
with the Hebrews, but with the
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entire world, that this vision
we're gonna look at here is in
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the first year of King
Belshazzar, who was the
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grandson of Nebuchadnezzar,
who Joel described as God's
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man to do a certain work at a
certain time in a certain way.
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Remember we were talking about
God has a purpose to covenant,
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not to covenant, but to reveal
himself and to communicate and
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to be with humanity, and he
has to use human people, he's
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accommodating.
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And that's what we see, the
whole book of Daniel is set in
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that environment.
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>>TY: We're gonna say, he
uses people we'd never use.
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>>JAMES: Yeah, God is
accommodating exactly because
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what happens is, when God uses
certain people, and Jonah is a
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prime example of this,
when God uses certain people,
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sometimes, these people or
people groups start becoming
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exclusive.
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They start thinking, oh, we're
the special group, we're the
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special people,
God is only using us.
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Jonah was very...
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>>DAVID: Just us.
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>>JAMES: Oh, man, so, God, I
think the whole book of Daniel
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is setting up this idea that
God's covenantal relationship
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is with more than
just one people group.
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God is actually trying to
communicate who he is and what
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he is and the fact that
he wants to be a friend and
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faithful to the whole world,
and so, we find Daniel in a
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very odd situation, talking
about God's faithfulness and
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God's goodness and God's, all
this stuff, in the context of
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being in a people group
that look like they've just been
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squashed by all the
powers in the world at his time.
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>>DAVID: Jerusalem is
destroyed, the temple is
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destroyed, but God is faithful.
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>>JAMES: Yes, and it's not
just one power, it's one after
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another, after another,
that is the setup, we've got
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Babylonians, then we've got
Medo-Persians, then we got the
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Greeks, then we got the
Romans, one after another has
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basically decimated
these people that God's chosen.
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>>DAVID: I love that.
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>>TY: Yeah, bringing up what
you've brought up reminds me
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of something that's
been really helpful for me in
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assessing history, especially
in regards to the Protestant
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reformation, but even in
just interacting with people in
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general, and it's this,
that as we go through this
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reformation series, we're
gonna be talking about people
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with names who had
certain positions, theological
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positions.
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And I think it's important
that we not judge people, but
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rather judge ideas, because
any given individual that we
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might consider within the
scope of history is going to
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be an individual.
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Luther, for example,
Martin Luther, which is the key
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figure of the Protestant
reformation, is a guy that we
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look at and there are points
in his thinking where we might
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assess and think, that's
just pure gospel brilliance, and
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there are other points in
his thinking that we might say,
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that is so unbelievable that
God would even have anything
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to do with this man.
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How could he be the guy?
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But as you keep reading
Luther, you find out that
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there are points in Luther's
experience when Luther would
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negatively assess a
previous version of Luther.
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And I think, around this
table, even, I would assess a
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version of my own thinking at
one point in my experience and
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I could judge those ideas
as bad ideas, but I remain in
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relationship with myself,
obviously, and I don't cut
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myself off.
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So, we're gonna talk about
Luther, we're gonna talk about
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John Calvin, we're gonna
talk about Augustan, we're gonna
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talk about Plato, we're
gonna talk about these historic
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figures and what I've
discovered is there's just
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brilliance in all of them,
and at that same time, there are
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concepts that we would assess
and say, push back on, but God
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is looking from a different
vantage point and knows
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people's hearts and where they
are in the process, so much so
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that you have someone like
Zwingli, for example, Ulrich
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Zwingli , one of the
main Protestant reformers, who
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actually, at one point, put
people like Plato and Socrates
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and Aristotle, according to
him, will be in the kingdom,
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will be in heaven, and
yet, from our perspective, they
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knew nothing about Christ
or the gospel, so how do, God's
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got a way of working things
out that we need to let God
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work out and all we can do
is judge ideas, not people.
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>>DAVID: That's a great caveat.
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>>TY: I mean, the first
eschatological vision ever
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given to a human being
wasn't given to a Hebrew, it was
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given to Nebuchadnezzar.
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>>DAVID: Is that true?
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>>TY: Yeah, chapter 2 of Daniel.
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Yeah.
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>>DAVID: I was just thinking,
yeah, okay, fair enough, when
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you just said eschatological...
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>>JEFFERY: You
read Genesis 3:15.
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>>TY: That's eschatological.
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>>JEFFERY:
Because that was a Jew.
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>>TY: Yeah, yeah.
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>>JAMES: Give you another
example of this as Luther's
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commentary on Revelation,
his first commentary on
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Revelation, he basically said,
this book doesn't belong as
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part of the canon,
Christ isn't even in this.
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He's not even mentioned in here.
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And I would take, what?
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What?
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Ten years later,
he completely changes.
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So, I like that idea
that we're not looking at men,
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we're not looking at the
people, we're not looking at
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individuals, we're looking
at the truth, we're looking at
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what was communicated, and
we're judging and assessing
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and massaging it and seeking
to move it along, move it
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along, move it along, and let
the people who helped even us
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do that, let them be part
of that process, but let the
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process be focused
on the actual truth.
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>>DAVID: I love
everything that you said there.
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My favorite thing that you
said, Ty, in all of that was,
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you hinted at it, James,
as well, that I would assess
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earlier versions
of myself negatively.
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>>JAMES: Me, too.
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>>DAVID: You mean
of yourself, James.
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>>TY: He means of you.
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>>DAVID: No, I gave him the
benefit of the doubt, he's a
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Christian.
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You just had that great
quotation, Jeffrey, a few days
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ago, when you were speaking,
Frank Burgess, if you have
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not, what was it, acquired or...
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>>JEFFERY: Discarded.
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>>DAVID: ...discarded a new
opinion about something major
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in your life, you might
check your pulse, because maybe
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you're not alive anymore.
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Sometimes, we have this
notion, especially, this takes
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place in sort of Christian
circles the idea that, oh, you
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changed your mind?
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You, and that's the great
thing about minds is that they
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can be changed.
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Right?
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They're like tides,
you can change them.
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But, at some census, we hold
this notion that being static
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and unchanging is virtuous.
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Now, there are things about
which we don't wanna change
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our mind, but there are
things in which, if we're not
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growing, if we're not...
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>>JEFFERY: That's a sign
of weakness, not strength.
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>>DAVID: Yeah, how is that a
sign of strength, where did we
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get that idea?
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>>TY: It's a sign of
insecurity and arrogance in
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insecurity, isn't it?
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Because if I divulge a change
in my thinking, that means I
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wasn't right the first time.
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[Laughter]
00:11:22.18\00:11:23.35
>>DAVID: Full possession of
all knowledge of all things.
00:11:23.35\00:11:26.51
>>JAMES: I really like the
way we're doing this, though,
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because we're not talking
about again, the individuals,
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we're talking
about the truth itself.
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And so, that makes it a
lot easier for us to be able to
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switch, oh, look, I
didn't see that before.
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I mean, how many books have
you read, and then, five years
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later, you might reread
it again and maybe even the
00:11:40.93\00:11:42.33
bible, and you read it again
and you go, wow, I never saw
00:11:42.33\00:11:44.13
it that way before.
00:11:44.13\00:11:45.10
>>DAVID: So, let me be
autobiographical, we're
00:11:45.10\00:11:46.63
talking here about Daniel 7,
8, 9, 11, which we should say,
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we could do the rest of
the series on that, just those
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prophecies.
00:11:52.54\00:11:53.68
>>JAMES: And we will.
00:11:53.68\00:11:54.84
>>DAVID: Yeah, we will, next
time, let's do it, but in my
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own experience, I preached and
taught, for example, Daniel 8
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and 9 for years, years,
and what I was saying, I think,
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was true in terms of the basic
facticity, the events, the,
00:12:07.32\00:12:12.83
but in terms of the shape and
the point, totally missing the
00:12:12.83\00:12:16.40
point, I have no
problem with saying that.
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Like, fully missing
the covenantal, because...
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>>JEFFERY: That's
actually the biggest...
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>>DAVID: Of course,
and that's my point.
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>>JEFFERY: It's not like you
missed, oh, I missed that part
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of it, like you missed the
thing, you know, that hurts.
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>>DAVID: I just rest in the
confidence that the people in
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the New Testament Jesus says,
man, you've been reading your
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book for a long time.
00:12:39.82\00:12:41.29
>>TY: It's like getting
married but your wife wasn't
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involved.
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>>JAMES: And that was the
point I was making earlier.
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>>DAVID: These are
those which testify of me.
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>>JEFFERY: but the problem
is that there's YouTube, and we
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can look you up and see all
the crazy things you've said.
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That's the problem.
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>>TY: And you.
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>>DAVID: Listen, I got tattoos
on me, I have no problem with
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reminders that I have grown.
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>>TY: Okay, so, Daniel, though.
00:13:01.41\00:13:03.38
>>DAVID: I'm balding.
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>>JAMES: Those reminders run
through the bible, for all of
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our authors, they're there,
they're humans, we see growth
00:13:09.08\00:13:13.66
in the progression of truth
through the bible characters,
00:13:13.66\00:13:16.49
we see it, and of course,
we see it in Luther and others.
00:13:16.49\00:13:20.26
Anyway, sorry.
00:13:20.26\00:13:21.43
>>TY: Okay, so, what's going
on, first of all, in Daniel 7?
00:13:21.43\00:13:23.43
Who wants to dive into
that and tell us the gist of the
00:13:23.43\00:13:28.90
picture of Daniel chapter 7?
00:13:28.90\00:13:30.14
>>DAVID: So, Daniel chapter
7 is the second major vision in
00:13:30.14\00:13:34.58
the book of Daniel, you have
Daniel chapter 2, which many
00:13:34.58\00:13:36.91
might notice, just go
back briefly, it's a metal man,
00:13:36.91\00:13:39.81
head of gold, chest and arms
of silver, belly and thighs of
00:13:39.81\00:13:42.15
bronze, legs of iron,
feet of iron and clay.
00:13:42.15\00:13:44.19
>>TY: That's Daniel 2.
00:13:44.19\00:13:45.35
>>DAVID: Daniel 2, so that's
basically the four kingdoms
00:13:45.35\00:13:47.32
and the division
of the fourth kingdom.
00:13:47.32\00:13:49.32
So, Babylon, Medo-Persia,
Greece, Rome, then the
00:13:49.32\00:13:51.33
division of Rome.
00:13:51.33\00:13:52.56
So, then you come to Daniel 7,
you have something that is, in
00:13:52.56\00:13:54.30
many ways, we probably
don't need to establish those
00:13:54.30\00:13:56.30
connections, but it's
just a recapitulation of that.
00:13:56.30\00:13:58.30
You have the lion, the
bear, the leopard, the terrible,
00:13:58.30\00:14:00.54
ferocious beast,
and then the ten horns.
00:14:00.54\00:14:03.27
>>JEFFERY: With more details.
00:14:03.27\00:14:04.27
>>DAVID: Which,
that's more details.
00:14:04.27\00:14:06.27
So, what you're dealing with
is a historical movement from
00:14:06.27\00:14:09.21
the time of Daniel down to the
end, we call that escotology,
00:14:09.21\00:14:12.65
the study of the end of
time, the end of things.
00:14:12.65\00:14:15.65
>>JEFFERY: Last things.
00:14:15.65\00:14:16.65
>>DAVID: Last things.
00:14:16.65\00:14:17.85
And what you have is the lion,
the bear, I think I've been
00:14:17.85\00:14:20.52
through that, so Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and
00:14:20.52\00:14:23.99
in the middle of this, this
element that happens to Daniel
00:14:23.99\00:14:26.16
7, the most important element
in Daniel chapter 7 is not the
00:14:26.16\00:14:29.06
lion, it's not the bear,
it's not the leopard, it's this
00:14:29.06\00:14:31.07
ferocious beast, this terrible
beast, out of which comes
00:14:31.07\00:14:34.77
these 10 horns and one of
those horns is the point that
00:14:34.77\00:14:38.34
we're gonna get at here, I
think, Ty, and that is this is
00:14:38.34\00:14:41.48
a horn, a power, that's
speaking blasphemous words,
00:14:41.48\00:14:44.98
it's persecuting the saints
of the most high, etcetera,
00:14:44.98\00:14:47.12
etcetera, that's the focus,
and Daniel, again and again,
00:14:47.12\00:14:49.12
in Daniel 7 says, I was
considering it, I was looking,
00:14:49.12\00:14:52.65
yeah, the lion was
interesting, yeah, the bear
00:14:52.65\00:14:54.66
was interesting, yeah, the
leopard was interesting, but
00:14:54.66\00:14:56.83
he was riveted, yeah, that's
right, this little horn and
00:14:56.83\00:14:59.73
the beast out of which the
horn grew, was just riveted.
00:14:59.73\00:15:02.20
And that becomes the point
around which Daniel 7 orbits.
00:15:02.20\00:15:05.83
>>JEFFERY: We should
actually read that verse, too.
00:15:05.83\00:15:07.84
>>TY: Yeah, read that, Jeffrey.
00:15:07.84\00:15:09.07
>>JEFFERY: You want me to jump
straight to the point you just
00:15:09.07\00:15:12.51
made.
00:15:12.51\00:15:13.51
>>DAVID: Yeah, go to, go to...
00:15:13.51\00:15:15.31
>>JEFFERY: Verse 8?
00:15:15.31\00:15:16.34
>>DAVID: No, just start in 7.
00:15:16.34\00:15:18.25
>>JEFFERY: Verse 7,
after this, I saw, in the night
00:15:18.25\00:15:21.92
visions, and behold, a fourth
beast, dreadful and terrible,
00:15:21.92\00:15:25.82
exceedingly strong.
00:15:25.82\00:15:27.86
It had huge, iron teeth.
00:15:27.86\00:15:30.13
It was devouring, breaking
in pieces and trampling the
00:15:30.13\00:15:34.10
residue with its feet.
00:15:34.10\00:15:35.86
It was different from all the
beasts that were before it and
00:15:35.86\00:15:39.57
it had 10 horns.
00:15:39.57\00:15:41.54
I was considering the horns,
and there was another horn, a
00:15:41.54\00:15:45.64
little one, coming up
among them, before whom 3 of the
00:15:45.64\00:15:51.05
first horns were plucked
out by the roots, and there, in
00:15:51.05\00:15:55.28
this horn, were eyes like
the eyes of a man and a mouth
00:15:55.28\00:15:59.22
speaking pompous words.
00:15:59.22\00:16:01.09
>>TY: Okay, so then, as you
go through Daniel 7, there is a
00:16:01.09\00:16:05.73
kind of repeated large pattern
that takes place, in which he
00:16:05.73\00:16:10.30
returns to that little horn,
and he fills out what it looks
00:16:10.30\00:16:13.57
like for it to have the eyes
of a man and a mouth speaking
00:16:13.57\00:16:16.74
great things, because later
on, in the passage, he says,
00:16:16.74\00:16:21.31
in verse 23, that the
fourth beast shall be the fourth
00:16:21.31\00:16:25.05
kingdom on the earth, which
shall be different from all
00:16:25.05\00:16:29.92
the others, different from
the ones before it, and it will
00:16:29.92\00:16:34.66
devour, it will trample
under its feet, so this is
00:16:34.66\00:16:39.23
describing military conquest,
and then, verse 25, which gets
00:16:39.23\00:16:43.63
real explicit and says that
he will speak pompous words and
00:16:43.63\00:16:47.27
then, this is added that
wasn't in verses 7 and 8,
00:16:47.27\00:16:50.71
against the most high, and
shall persecute the saints of
00:16:50.71\00:16:55.61
the most high, so that's a
return to verses 7 and 8, but
00:16:55.61\00:16:59.15
now, it's filling out the
picture, and I think what's
00:16:59.15\00:17:02.02
brilliant here, really,
is that if Daniel 2, with the
00:17:02.02\00:17:06.52
metal man, with the gold,
the silver, the brass, the iron,
00:17:06.52\00:17:09.89
and the ten toes, if
that prophecy is being
00:17:09.89\00:17:15.56
recapitulated in chapter 7
with the lion, the bear, the
00:17:15.56\00:17:19.17
leopard, and the terrible
beast, Daniel's prophecy
00:17:19.17\00:17:22.97
specifically tells us what
David mentioned a minute ago,
00:17:22.97\00:17:27.24
that it's beginning
with the kingdom of Babylon.
00:17:27.24\00:17:31.01
So, all you have to do is
just lay your bible aside for a
00:17:31.01\00:17:34.18
second, just look at history,
and history will tell you that
00:17:34.18\00:17:39.59
the kingdom of Babylon was
followed by Medo-Persia, which
00:17:39.59\00:17:44.03
was followed by Greece,
which was followed by the iron
00:17:44.03\00:17:48.30
monarchy of Rome, and if you
keep reading history, you see
00:17:48.30\00:17:54.47
that Rome, the Roman
empire gave way, just like this
00:17:54.47\00:17:59.41
prophecy says, to another
configuration of power, that
00:17:59.41\00:18:05.08
according to this prophecy
is different than all the others
00:18:05.08\00:18:08.32
that were before it and
that power, that according to
00:18:08.32\00:18:11.75
history, that followed
the pagan Roman empire was the
00:18:11.75\00:18:15.89
formation of the Roman church,
the Papal Roman state, which
00:18:15.89\00:18:21.90
took up the position that
had been previously occupied by
00:18:21.90\00:18:27.20
the Roman empire
in its pagan phase.
00:18:27.20\00:18:30.47
So, if that trajectory is
accurate and we believe it is
00:18:30.47\00:18:36.91
accurate because Daniel's
prophecies have told us, hey,
00:18:36.91\00:18:41.35
everybody, we're
beginning with Babylon.
00:18:41.35\00:18:43.62
>>JEFFERY: What is interesting
is that each one of those
00:18:43.62\00:18:45.35
previous kingdoms were
overcome, overtaken, conquered
00:18:45.35\00:18:48.72
by another kingdom, and
then, that fourth one is not.
00:18:48.72\00:18:52.13
>>TY: No, it actually
slips into the vacancy that's
00:18:52.13\00:18:58.33
created by the Roman emperors.
00:18:58.33\00:19:00.30
>>JEFFERY: It's
almost like a continuation.
00:19:00.30\00:19:02.34
>>TY: It is,
that's why it's one beast.
00:19:02.34\00:19:05.11
>>DAVID: If you go back to
Daniel 2, the iron goes right
00:19:05.11\00:19:09.41
through to the toes.
00:19:09.41\00:19:10.38
There's never, when
iron appears, it does not...
00:19:10.38\00:19:13.45
>>JEFFERY: On the
clay, but it doesn't...
00:19:13.45\00:19:15.78
>>DAVID: And this horn does
not detach from the beast, it
00:19:15.78\00:19:18.69
grows out of the fourth beast.
00:19:18.69\00:19:20.16
>>TY: Okay, we need to
take a break, but we've already
00:19:20.16\00:19:23.39
established a crucial
foundation for where we're
00:19:23.39\00:19:26.66
going.
00:19:26.66\00:19:27.66
There is a succession of
empires brought to view in
00:19:27.66\00:19:30.40
this prophecy and it lands
somewhere in history with a
00:19:30.40\00:19:34.27
particular power that tells us
exactly what the great falling
00:19:34.27\00:19:39.81
away, the great apostasy
looks like that necessitates the
00:19:39.81\00:19:43.58
protestant reformation,
which is where we're going.
00:19:43.58\00:19:46.65
So, let's just take a
break and we'll come right back.
00:19:46.65\00:19:48.32
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[Music]
00:21:52.87\00:21:59.18
>>TY: So, for those who
might not be familiar with the
00:21:59.18\00:22:00.95
prophecies of Daniel, we
probably covered that really
00:22:00.95\00:22:03.85
fast, but what we wanna simply
point out is that the book of
00:22:03.85\00:22:10.16
Daniel opens up a series of
prophecies that are covering the
00:22:10.16\00:22:13.50
same basic period of history
and dealing with the same basic
00:22:13.50\00:22:18.27
powers in history.
00:22:18.27\00:22:19.43
That's not to say that there
aren't other empires, other
00:22:19.43\00:22:22.14
places in the world, it's just
saying that Daniel is saying,
00:22:22.14\00:22:26.11
hey, there is going to be a
succession of empires and the
00:22:26.11\00:22:31.25
whole point, as James called
our attention to last segment,
00:22:31.25\00:22:36.42
the whole point is to really
get to that power that most of
00:22:36.42\00:22:42.66
the time is given to.
00:22:42.66\00:22:44.16
Babylon is just mentioned
in some of its characteristics.
00:22:44.16\00:22:48.46
Medo-Persia is mentioned
with two or three of its
00:22:48.46\00:22:50.77
characteristics.
00:22:50.77\00:22:51.97
Greece is mentioned with a
few of its characteristics, but
00:22:51.97\00:22:55.90
Daniel, even himself, at
one point, says, I want to know
00:22:55.90\00:22:59.34
the truth about that little
horn power, that's the one
00:22:59.34\00:23:04.28
that stands out in his
thinking, he's like, tell me
00:23:04.28\00:23:07.92
about that.
00:23:07.92\00:23:09.25
And so, most of the details
in chapter 7 and chapter 8 are
00:23:09.25\00:23:13.69
about that power, so what
is this power, first of all,
00:23:13.69\00:23:19.09
which power, what
power is this in history?
00:23:19.09\00:23:22.23
Which we don't have to
do a lot of guesswork, it's
00:23:22.23\00:23:24.13
definitely the Papal Roman
empire, how do we know that
00:23:24.13\00:23:27.34
for certainty?
00:23:27.34\00:23:28.50
Well, within Daniel's
own context, we begin with
00:23:28.50\00:23:30.87
Babylon, again, lay the bible
aside, so this isn't just an
00:23:30.87\00:23:35.34
internal, biblical idea,
the bible is telling us what
00:23:35.34\00:23:40.05
actually happened in history.
00:23:40.05\00:23:41.28
That power followed that one,
which followed that one, which
00:23:41.28\00:23:44.25
followed that one, and
that one, the Roman empire, gave
00:23:44.25\00:23:50.36
space for the continuation
of the Roman empire in a new
00:23:50.36\00:23:55.56
form, in a new form.
00:23:55.56\00:23:58.07
Pagan to Papal.
00:23:58.07\00:23:59.90
>>DAVID: And when we say gave
space, historically, what that
00:23:59.90\00:24:02.57
looks like, you know, this
is symbolic language, what that
00:24:02.57\00:24:05.51
looks like in that particular
case, the fourth beast seating
00:24:05.51\00:24:08.58
ground or giving space to the
little horn, is what we would
00:24:08.58\00:24:12.15
call the dissolution of the
western Roman empire, right,
00:24:12.15\00:24:14.52
by the time you get toward the
end of the 5th century, Rome,
00:24:14.52\00:24:17.95
as we think about it,
Rome in the movies, it's gone.
00:24:17.95\00:24:21.12
It's fragmented, which you
know, is hugely significant,
00:24:21.12\00:24:24.66
because what you have in
Daniel 2 is the feet of iron
00:24:24.66\00:24:27.13
and clay, fragmentation, and
what you have here in Daniel 7
00:24:27.13\00:24:29.63
is the beast that has
10 horns, fragmentation.
00:24:29.63\00:24:32.27
So, that's what it looks like,
historically speaking, is you
00:24:32.27\00:24:35.77
have the dissolution of a
western Roman empire, which
00:24:35.77\00:24:38.94
creates a power vacuum, right?
00:24:38.94\00:24:40.64
The homogenizing influence
in the ancient world up to that
00:24:40.64\00:24:43.98
point was the
imperial reality of Rome.
00:24:43.98\00:24:48.25
When that's gone, what is
the thing, well, about 150 years
00:24:48.25\00:24:53.82
before, a fellow by the name
of Constantine the Great had
00:24:53.82\00:24:56.86
converted to Christianity,
he had become the first of the
00:24:56.86\00:25:00.06
Christian Roman emperors.
00:25:00.06\00:25:01.30
So, that's AD 312, when you
get down to AD 476, and now,
00:25:01.30\00:25:06.40
western Rome is gone as
an empire, there is still an
00:25:06.40\00:25:10.27
adhering, gluing,
homogenizing, maybe that's not
00:25:10.27\00:25:12.81
the best word, but there's
something that's giving a
00:25:12.81\00:25:15.04
connectivity to what had been
the Roman empire, and that's
00:25:15.04\00:25:17.95
the church, that's the church.
00:25:17.95\00:25:20.32
So, now you've transitioned,
this is a little future, but
00:25:20.32\00:25:24.35
you've come into what's
called the holy Roman empire.
00:25:24.35\00:25:27.16
Right, out of just what
we, Rome, to the holy Roman
00:25:27.16\00:25:30.33
empire.
00:25:30.33\00:25:31.33
>>JEFFERY: It's Rome 2.0.
00:25:31.33\00:25:32.33
>>DAVID: Rome 2.0.
00:25:32.33\00:25:33.73
>>JEFFERY: And it carries
over some of the characteristics
00:25:33.73\00:25:34.83
from the imperial Rome.
00:25:34.83\00:25:35.83
>>JAMES: Just like
the prophecy predicts.
00:25:35.83\00:25:36.97
The prophecy predicts that
this fourth kingdom would be
00:25:36.97\00:25:38.97
the fourth kingdom, wouldn't
be a fifth kingdom or a 6th
00:25:38.97\00:25:41.07
kingdom, and so, the holy
Roman empire, to connect it
00:25:41.07\00:25:43.84
with a prophecy, it continues
to be, it is a continuation
00:25:43.84\00:25:47.71
oft hat fourth power.
00:25:47.71\00:25:48.91
>>JEFFERY: And it's the only
one that contains, correct me
00:25:48.91\00:25:50.55
if I'm wrong, but there's
spiritual stuff, religious
00:25:50.55\00:25:52.88
stuff.
00:25:52.88\00:25:53.82
>>JAMES: That's why
it says it's diverse.
00:25:53.82\00:25:55.88
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, it's wrapped
up in that last one, and you
00:25:55.88\00:25:57.89
don't really see
that in the first 3.
00:25:57.89\00:25:59.89
>>DAVID: Well, Ty alluded to
that, when you get to verse 25
00:25:59.89\00:26:01.89
of Daniel chapter 7, it
doesn't just say he will speak
00:26:01.89\00:26:03.89
pompous words, period, he
will speak pompous words against
00:26:03.89\00:26:06.49
the most high.
00:26:06.49\00:26:07.66
Not just that he will be a
persecuting power, but that he
00:26:07.66\00:26:09.63
will persecute the saints of
the most high, and then, this
00:26:09.63\00:26:12.33
is where it gets really
pregnant, he shall intend to
00:26:12.33\00:26:14.97
change times and laws.
00:26:14.97\00:26:16.24
Well, who is, yeah,
exactly, of the most high.
00:26:16.24\00:26:20.24
The saints will be given into
his hand and he will rule for
00:26:20.24\00:26:22.31
a time, a time
and a half, and time.
00:26:22.31\00:26:24.31
You know, by the way, that
there is a celestial dimension
00:26:24.31\00:26:27.45
to what's happening, you're
moving from the terrestrial,
00:26:27.45\00:26:29.98
or horizontal, to the
vertical, the celestial.
00:26:29.98\00:26:31.99
You know that because in
Daniel 7, repeatedly, the
00:26:31.99\00:26:34.86
thing that brings an
end to the career of this
00:26:34.86\00:26:39.36
prosecutorial, blasphemous
career of this power is the
00:26:39.36\00:26:41.93
judgment, the heavily
judgment seat, it's not another
00:26:41.93\00:26:44.50
military power that
comes in like you have with the
00:26:44.50\00:26:47.77
succession of
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece.
00:26:47.77\00:26:49.77
Verse 26 says, but, the court
will be seated and they, that
00:26:49.77\00:26:52.87
is to say, the heavenly court
will take away his dominion,
00:26:52.87\00:26:55.74
to consume it and
destroy it forever.
00:26:55.74\00:26:57.75
So, you transition, I love
what you say there, Jeffrey,
00:26:57.75\00:26:59.81
from a mere horizontal
conquering of nationalistic
00:26:59.81\00:27:03.49
kingdoms to a vertical
orientation toward God,
00:27:03.49\00:27:07.56
blasphemy against God,
against God's law, against God's
00:27:07.56\00:27:09.86
times, against God's people.
00:27:09.86\00:27:11.89
And no power on earth is
gonna say, okay, we're, no, the
00:27:11.89\00:27:15.13
heavenly court convenes and
says, okay, we got work to do.
00:27:15.13\00:27:18.30
>>TY: It's amazing.
00:27:18.30\00:27:20.30
When you realize this, it's so
huge, because essentially what
00:27:20.30\00:27:26.04
we're saying is that
Daniel's prophecies foretold the
00:27:26.04\00:27:31.55
formation of
apostate Christianity.
00:27:31.55\00:27:35.75
>>DAVID: We gotta
unpack that, that's true.
00:27:35.75\00:27:40.09
What you're saying is exactly
true, but I think we need to
00:27:40.09\00:27:44.46
put flesh on that a little bit.
00:27:44.46\00:27:46.43
>>TY: Put flesh on it.
00:27:46.43\00:27:47.50
4>>DAVID: Okay, so, I
just mentioned Constantine the
00:27:47.50\00:27:49.83
Great.
00:27:49.83\00:27:51.00
My understanding, and I'm
happy to be corrected on this,
00:27:51.00\00:27:53.44
or at least modified on this
is that you have, during the
00:27:53.44\00:27:56.57
apostolic period, so when
we say that, we mean, first
00:27:56.57\00:27:58.67
century Christianity.
00:27:58.67\00:28:00.54
Apostolic period, book of Acts.
00:28:00.54\00:28:02.11
Then, you move into the second
and third centuries and this
00:28:02.11\00:28:05.21
is what sometimes called
the antinicine period, or the
00:28:05.21\00:28:08.88
early period,
early, early Christianity.
00:28:08.88\00:28:11.25
>>TY: Post apostolic.
00:28:11.25\00:28:12.45
>>DAVID: All the apostles
are dead, post apostolic, but we
00:28:12.45\00:28:14.26
are not yet to the conversion
of Constantine, that period
00:28:14.26\00:28:17.13
there, right, that's gonna
happen at the beginning of the
00:28:17.13\00:28:19.13
fourth century.
00:28:19.13\00:28:20.30
So, that period there is a
period in which the church is
00:28:20.30\00:28:23.77
going reasonably well,
I think, by comparison.
00:28:23.77\00:28:26.17
Right?
00:28:26.17\00:28:27.40
Things are going well, there's
baptisms, there's conversions,
00:28:27.40\00:28:29.17
but as soon as we get to
the conversion of Constantine,
00:28:29.17\00:28:31.17
this is giant, you now
transition, the church now
00:28:31.17\00:28:34.44
transitions from a persecuted
minority in the Roman empire,
00:28:34.44\00:28:39.75
overnight, you are now, you
are the official empire, you
00:28:39.75\00:28:45.32
are the religion of
the empire, you go from a
00:28:45.32\00:28:47.96
percentage of population
like 3 to 2 to 4 percent of the
00:28:47.96\00:28:52.56
Roman empire and now, you're
like 70 percent, because this
00:28:52.56\00:28:55.53
is now the favored church,
this is now the religion of
00:28:55.53\00:28:57.43
Christianity and you could
say it this way, in those early
00:28:57.43\00:29:00.74
formative centuries,
first, second, and third, the
00:29:00.74\00:29:03.07
Christian church
survived persecution.
00:29:03.07\00:29:06.01
They survived adversity,
they survived obscurity.
00:29:06.01\00:29:08.44
Could they survive popularity?
00:29:08.44\00:29:10.01
>>TY: Yeah, that's the question.
00:29:10.01\00:29:13.18
>>DAVID: Right, so, now,
all of a sudden, the Christian
00:29:13.18\00:29:14.82
faith is the faith.
00:29:14.82\00:29:16.22
>>JEFFERY: Now, ministers
are being funded by the empire,
00:29:16.22\00:29:19.79
now churches are being funded,
now there's no martyrs, so it
00:29:19.79\00:29:23.79
just totally changes the
entire identity and culture of
00:29:23.79\00:29:28.06
Christianity.
00:29:28.06\00:29:29.23
>>DAVID: It just changes
the whole shape, the culture of
00:29:29.23\00:29:31.27
Christianity is shaped.
00:29:31.27\00:29:32.30
It goes from persecuted
to politically powerful.
00:29:32.30\00:29:35.47
>>TY: Right, right.
00:29:35.47\00:29:36.71
So, you have the Roman empire,
which is persecuting apostolic
00:29:36.71\00:29:40.28
Christianity.
00:29:40.28\00:29:41.74
And then, suddenly, you have
Christianity now becoming the
00:29:41.74\00:29:47.98
Roman empire,
persecuting Christianity.
00:29:47.98\00:29:53.29
It's just this major
transition of power in which
00:29:53.29\00:29:59.06
the Christian church is
undergoing monumental changes
00:29:59.06\00:30:03.20
on a political and ideological
level, and on a theological
00:30:03.20\00:30:07.70
level.
00:30:07.70\00:30:09.17
And the theology is the
crucial thing that Daniel has
00:30:09.17\00:30:13.44
in mind, because if you
continue marching through
00:30:13.44\00:30:16.71
Daniel's prophecies, you see
in chapter 8, the same little
00:30:16.71\00:30:20.28
horn power described as
growing up to the hosts of
00:30:20.28\00:30:23.52
heaven.
00:30:23.52\00:30:24.69
This power casts some of
the hosts to the ground, again,
00:30:24.69\00:30:27.56
it's persecuting the
saints, yeah, I'm in verse 10 of
00:30:27.56\00:30:31.49
chapter 8 of Daniel.
00:30:31.49\00:30:33.19
And then, it says, in verse 11
that he exalts himself even as
00:30:33.19\00:30:36.20
high as the prince of the
hosts, that's the Messiah, and
00:30:36.20\00:30:39.23
then, it says that he casts
the daily and the sanctuary to
00:30:39.23\00:30:44.71
the ground.
00:30:44.71\00:30:45.87
In verse 12, it says that
he casts the truth, that's the
00:30:45.87\00:30:49.14
gospel, to the ground,
and he prospered in doing it.
00:30:49.14\00:30:53.11
I mean, the words,
words cannot be more explicit.
00:30:53.11\00:30:58.62
You have here Rome 2.0 taking
on a Christian guise, becoming
00:30:58.62\00:31:05.66
Christianity of the popular
empire, and in the process of
00:31:05.66\00:31:10.70
practicing and prospering,
it is taking the truth of the
00:31:10.70\00:31:14.90
gospel, and back in chapter
7, verse 25, the truth of God's
00:31:14.90\00:31:18.34
law, the law and the gospel,
and bringing those things down
00:31:18.34\00:31:23.31
in people's
understandings and estimations.
00:31:23.31\00:31:26.82
>>DAVID: Morphing them.
00:31:26.82\00:31:27.82
>>TY: It's just amazing.
00:31:27.82\00:31:28.92
And then, in chapter 9
of Daniel, Daniel's prophecy
00:31:28.92\00:31:33.66
backs up, check this out, and
describes the time when Jesus
00:31:33.66\00:31:38.79
is on the scene himself,
in chapter 9 and verses 24-27.
00:31:38.79\00:31:42.16
is on the scene himself,
in chapter 9 and verses 24-27.
00:31:42.16\00:31:44.03
When Jesus is on the scene,
that's during the pagan phase
00:31:44.27\00:31:48.24
of the Roma empire.
00:31:48.24\00:31:49.24
Jesus was
crucified on a Roman cross.
00:31:49.24\00:31:53.31
>>DAVID: Stood before
a Roman procheuranart.
00:31:53.31\00:31:55.44
>>TY: That's right.
00:31:55.44\00:31:56.68
So, when Jesus comes, this is
fascinating, when Jesus comes,
00:31:56.68\00:32:01.58
he's specifically described
in chapter 9, verse 25, as
00:32:01.58\00:32:06.86
Messiah the prince, which
is the language that was used
00:32:06.86\00:32:11.59
similarly in chapter 8, okay,
that this power of the future
00:32:11.59\00:32:15.86
to him, yeah, and then, in
chapter 9:27, it says that the
00:32:15.86\00:32:20.04
primary action of Messiah
is to confirm the, singularly,
00:32:20.04\00:32:26.21
the covenant, and in
the Hebrew context, that's
00:32:26.21\00:32:28.98
essentially saying that
when the Messiah came to this
00:32:28.98\00:32:32.15
world, his whole mission
was to confirm as true the
00:32:32.15\00:32:40.16
character of God's covenantal
love toward the human rights.
00:32:40.16\00:32:44.73
>>DAVID: The
hesed we talked about.
00:32:44.73\00:32:46.73
>>TY: So, he proved faithful
to the promises that were made
00:32:46.73\00:32:50.03
through all the prophets.
00:32:50.03\00:32:52.07
through all the prophets.
00:32:52.07\00:32:53.67
So, that's the key
characteristic in Daniel of
00:32:53.67\00:32:56.57
the Messiah.
00:32:56.57\00:32:57.57
He fulfills covenant.
00:32:57.57\00:32:58.67
Then, when you come to
chapter 11, that same power is
00:32:58.67\00:33:02.71
described under different
language, but first, we have
00:33:02.71\00:33:05.51
an actual description, this is
fascinating, chapter 11, verse
00:33:05.51\00:33:09.22
22 describes the crucifixion
of Jesus and specifically
00:33:09.22\00:33:13.86
names the one who is crucified
the prince of the covenant.
00:33:13.86\00:33:17.59
So, that's his identifying
nomenclature, this is the one
00:33:17.59\00:33:22.63
who proves the faithfulness
of God's covenantal love to the
00:33:22.63\00:33:26.67
human race and then, in
chapter 11, verse 30, it says
00:33:26.67\00:33:33.31
that that same power back
there that we talked about in
00:33:33.31\00:33:36.34
chapter 7 and chapter 8
now postures itself with rage
00:33:36.34\00:33:41.08
against the holy covenant
and he's going to do damage, and
00:33:41.08\00:33:45.85
verse 32, those who do
wickedly against the covenant,
00:33:45.85\00:33:50.13
he shall corrupt with flattery
and this is the bridge, as I
00:33:50.13\00:33:54.46
understand it, you guys
correct me if I'm wrong here,
00:33:54.46\00:33:56.67
this is the bridge between
pagan Rome and Papal Rome.
00:33:56.67\00:34:01.47
This is describing both
the pagan phase and the papal
00:34:01.47\00:34:04.97
phase are against the covenant.
00:34:04.97\00:34:07.44
Right?
00:34:07.44\00:34:08.44
>>DAVID: Correct.
00:34:08.44\00:34:09.54
>>TY: And the pagan phase,
secular Rome, if you will,
00:34:09.54\00:34:13.55
crucifies the
prince of the covenant.
00:34:13.55\00:34:15.92
And the papal phase takes
up the cause of the pagan Roman
00:34:15.92\00:34:22.59
empire that crucified the
covenant Messiah by continuing
00:34:22.59\00:34:28.46
against the people of God, the
constitution, against the law
00:34:28.46\00:34:32.17
of God, and
against the covenant.
00:34:32.17\00:34:34.17
>>DAVID: Against the
sanctuary, against the truth.
00:34:34.17\00:34:36.17
>>TY: So, that's
just a lot of language.
00:34:36.17\00:34:38.17
For those who are
sitting in with us here in this
00:34:38.17\00:34:40.51
conversation, I just took,
you know, the big sweep of the
00:34:40.51\00:34:46.85
usage of covenant.
00:34:46.85\00:34:48.42
Now, maybe we should slow
down, back up now, and say,
00:34:48.42\00:34:53.42
okay, so what exactly are we
saying took place in history?
00:34:53.42\00:34:59.19
That's what the prophecy says.
00:34:59.19\00:35:00.40
So, in real time in history,
what actually took place?
00:35:00.40\00:35:04.10
>>DAVID: I love the way you're
saying that, Ty, because, you
00:35:04.10\00:35:08.94
said something there that
is so true and that is that
00:35:08.94\00:35:10.97
Daniel's primary
concern is what we would call a
00:35:10.97\00:35:13.38
theological concern.
00:35:13.38\00:35:14.48
Like, this is all, this
is the language of theology,
00:35:14.48\00:35:17.08
blasphemy, waging war against
God, against his law, against
00:35:17.08\00:35:20.32
time, against the
covenant, that's all theological
00:35:20.32\00:35:24.65
language, so I like the
idea here that the basic
00:35:24.65\00:35:28.06
orientation of heaven to
what's happening here is not
00:35:28.06\00:35:30.96
militaristic, it's not
national, it's not horizontal,
00:35:30.96\00:35:34.36
it's vertical.
00:35:34.36\00:35:35.36
>>JEFFERY: Those are
just manifestations of the
00:35:35.36\00:35:36.10
vertical.
00:35:36.10\00:35:37.10
>>DAVID: Those are
manifestations of a larger,
00:35:37.10\00:35:37.93
spiritual reality
that's taking place.
00:35:37.93\00:35:39.63
That's key to bear in mind.
00:35:39.63\00:35:42.07
And the text goes to great
lengths to communicate that
00:35:42.07\00:35:45.81
transition from the
terrestrial to the celestial,
00:35:45.81\00:35:48.14
from the, you know,
horizontal to the vertical.
00:35:48.14\00:35:50.15
It does that, you know, in
really clever ways in Daniel
00:35:50.15\00:35:53.72
7, which we sort of looked
at there against blasphemy,
00:35:53.72\00:35:56.22
against, but even in Daniel
8, you have those first three
00:35:56.22\00:35:59.22
powers, they're moving north,
south, east, west, these sort
00:35:59.22\00:36:02.19
of directions, and then,
all of a sudden, I think you
00:36:02.19\00:36:04.19
actually read this for us, Ty,
in 8:10 or 8:11, he magnified
00:36:04.19\00:36:07.60
himself to the prince
of the hosts, that's up.
00:36:07.60\00:36:09.60
That's up.
00:36:09.60\00:36:10.60
How do you do that?
00:36:10.60\00:36:11.97
>>JEFFERY: Well, we've
been talking about how...
00:36:11.97\00:36:14.97
>>TY: It's the system.
00:36:14.97\00:36:16.44
>>JEFFERY: ...what needs to
be reformed, we're talking about
00:36:16.44\00:36:18.31
the reformation and that
implies that something was
00:36:18.31\00:36:20.68
deformed.
00:36:20.68\00:36:23.08
>>DAVID: I'm sorry, could
you just start that over again.
00:36:23.08\00:36:25.45
>>JEFFERY: In our discussion
in framing this whole series,
00:36:25.45\00:36:29.35
we're talking about the
reformation, but that implies
00:36:29.35\00:36:32.62
something was deformed, and
so, in this sweep that we're
00:36:32.62\00:36:35.46
doing, this prophetic sweep,
it would be helpful to, okay,
00:36:35.46\00:36:39.13
what does that
mean, what are we saying?
00:36:39.13\00:36:41.10
What fell, what was the fall?
00:36:41.10\00:36:43.80
Right?
00:36:43.80\00:36:44.97
In Christianity that we're
describing and this whole idea
00:36:44.97\00:36:48.27
of horizontal and now
it's pointing up toward God, it
00:36:48.27\00:36:52.21
sounds like, in some way, it's
the repositioning of what's at
00:36:52.21\00:36:55.61
the heart of Christianity,
and now, it seems that man is
00:36:55.61\00:37:00.05
slowly usurping where
God's place was originally.
00:37:00.05\00:37:06.29
Is that a fair, just basically
foundational way to explain.
00:37:06.29\00:37:12.09
What happened?
00:37:12.09\00:37:13.40
Well, what happened was there
were different dynamics and
00:37:13.40\00:37:16.70
processes that took
place where man was slowly
00:37:16.70\00:37:20.17
gravitating towards the center
where God really belongs and
00:37:20.17\00:37:23.94
out of that flow many
different theological,
00:37:23.94\00:37:28.41
sociological, political, all
of this really flows from that
00:37:28.41\00:37:32.15
one truth.
00:37:32.15\00:37:33.31
>>DAVID: And when we come
back, we'll take a break here,
00:37:33.31\00:37:35.15
when we come back, I wanna
talk about how that happened.
00:37:35.15\00:37:37.42
How do you get that more
man-centered, human-centered,
00:37:37.42\00:37:41.46
what does that look like?
00:37:41.46\00:37:42.92
You're exactly correct.
00:37:42.92\00:37:43.93
The prophecies
are intimating that.
00:37:43.93\00:37:45.93
What did that look like
down on the ground level?
00:37:45.93\00:37:48.20
>>TY: Alright, we'll
come back in a minute, then.
00:37:48.20\00:37:50.80
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[Music]
00:38:46.12\00:38:53.29
>>TY: So, we're in
Daniel chapter 7, we looped into
00:38:53.29\00:38:55.90
chapter 8, we went into
chapter 9, we went into 11,
00:38:55.90\00:38:58.63
that's a lot of stuff that
we just covered, especially for
00:38:58.63\00:39:03.07
those who are sitting in on
this conversation with us, but
00:39:03.07\00:39:07.04
we really can just boil it
down to a very simple idea.
00:39:07.04\00:39:10.75
Daniel's prophecies are
telling us that there will be
00:39:10.75\00:39:13.65
a succession of empires in
history that will land with a
00:39:13.65\00:39:17.99
final empire that will
align itself against God.
00:39:17.99\00:39:22.86
That's essentially
what Daniel's prophecies are
00:39:22.86\00:39:24.86
telling us and it will align
itself against God in very,
00:39:24.86\00:39:28.73
very specific
ways that are named.
00:39:28.73\00:39:31.07
It will align itself against
the covenant and the covenant
00:39:31.07\00:39:36.37
in scripture is a really big
idea that includes the gospel,
00:39:36.37\00:39:41.11
it includes the law of God, it
includes the entire package of
00:39:41.11\00:39:45.85
God's faithfulness and
the way he relates to people.
00:39:45.85\00:39:49.52
So, essentially, there's a
power that's aligning itself
00:39:49.52\00:39:52.69
against what God
is doing in history.
00:39:52.69\00:39:55.99
And it's setting up a
parallel, an optional system.
00:39:55.99\00:40:00.56
>>JEFFERY: I think what's
interesting about that is when
00:40:00.56\00:40:03.00
you say, against God, it
doesn't necessarily have to go
00:40:03.00\00:40:06.63
on the offensive, all it has
to do is meddle with the fact
00:40:06.63\00:40:12.67
that God is central to this
and begin to replace it with
00:40:12.67\00:40:16.04
man.
00:40:16.04\00:40:17.51
>>DAVID: That's how you end it.
00:40:17.51\00:40:18.55
>>JEFFERY: By default,
that is going against God.
00:40:18.55\00:40:21.05
>>DAVID: So, speak to that.
00:40:21.05\00:40:22.15
>>JEFFERY: Well, we keep
emphasizing it's a theological
00:40:22.15\00:40:24.62
matter, it's a theological
matter, so the power that's
00:40:24.62\00:40:28.26
being described, we're not
looking for something that's
00:40:28.26\00:40:30.63
actively going and attacking
God, per se, we're looking for
00:40:30.63\00:40:34.56
something that, by nature
of its theological orientation,
00:40:34.56\00:40:39.53
obscures the centrality of God.
00:40:39.53\00:40:42.14
>>DAVID: And of God's
covenantal faithfulness.
00:40:42.14\00:40:44.24
>>JEFFERY: Yeah, by blurring
the lines between man and God.
00:40:44.24\00:40:48.64
So, that's where
the attack really is at.
00:40:48.64\00:40:51.01
>>DAVID: Okay, so maybe this
is where you wanna go, maybe
00:40:51.01\00:40:52.61
it's not where you wanna
go, but my understanding of how
00:40:52.61\00:40:54.62
that worked, historically
speaking, go back to the
00:40:54.62\00:40:57.89
conversion of Constantine,
so, actually, lemme just go back
00:40:57.89\00:41:00.56
before that.
00:41:00.56\00:41:02.19
The Christian movement
grew rapidly, we see that in the
00:41:02.19\00:41:06.09
book of Acts, we have
3,000, 4,000 being baptized.
00:41:06.09\00:41:08.33
So, there is a growth there,
but relative to the larger
00:41:08.33\00:41:11.03
Roman empire, it was, you
wouldn't say insignificant,
00:41:11.03\00:41:14.50
but it wasn't like,
whoa, these Christians are
00:41:14.50\00:41:16.71
everywhere, they were a
fairly small power, right?
00:41:16.71\00:41:19.67
Until, or a fairly small
entity, power's the wrong
00:41:19.67\00:41:21.81
word.
00:41:21.81\00:41:22.88
Until you get to the
conversion of Constantine, and
00:41:22.88\00:41:24.81
I think I mentioned that before.
00:41:24.81\00:41:26.82
You go from a very small
percentage, 2-4 percent, I'm
00:41:26.82\00:41:28.82
talking Jews and Christians
both, and now, all of a sudden
00:41:28.82\00:41:30.82
you're 60-70 percent of the
Roman empire is now Christian.
00:41:30.82\00:41:33.66
Okay, well, now, just by
virtue of that, bishops and
00:41:33.66\00:41:38.79
archbishops and people
that occupy spiritual positions,
00:41:38.79\00:41:41.66
now just have more authority,
they just have more influence
00:41:41.66\00:41:46.03
in these given areas and there
were, in sort of the history
00:41:46.03\00:41:49.67
of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th century
Christianity, you had emerging
00:41:49.67\00:41:54.01
centers of influence.
00:41:54.01\00:41:55.34
So, one of those centers
was Jerusalem, for obvious
00:41:55.34\00:41:58.98
reasons.
00:41:58.98\00:41:59.91
Another emerging center is Rome.
00:41:59.91\00:42:02.42
Also for obvious reasons.
00:42:02.42\00:42:03.59
Alexandria,
later Constantinople.
00:42:03.59\00:42:06.49
These are your major, what,
bishoprics, is that the term?
00:42:06.49\00:42:11.33
Bishoprics, that's the, these
are your centers of Christian
00:42:11.33\00:42:13.43
influence.
00:42:13.43\00:42:14.63
Because they didn't have like
what we have today, you know,
00:42:14.63\00:42:16.67
telephones and
Instagram and Facebook and easy
00:42:16.67\00:42:20.64
communication, each of these
areas took on its own flavor,
00:42:20.64\00:42:24.87
its own sort of, it was adding
its own look, its own feel,
00:42:24.87\00:42:29.08
its own flavor or seasonings
to the Christian faith, and in
00:42:29.08\00:42:32.35
that sort of fraternal
competition to place their
00:42:32.35\00:42:37.42
stamp on what Christianity
looked like, Rome will emerge.
00:42:37.42\00:42:43.06
It won't be the church in
Jerusalem, it won't be the
00:42:43.06\00:42:45.06
church in Constantinople,
it won't be the church in
00:42:45.06\00:42:47.03
Alexandria, Rome will emerge,
and in the emergence of Rome,
00:42:47.03\00:42:51.30
as the church is growing,
you go from, hey, that guy's the
00:42:51.30\00:42:55.04
pastor, the, now
you have bishops.
00:42:55.04\00:42:57.04
Then, because Christianity
was mainly an urban movement,
00:42:57.04\00:43:01.18
right, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th
centuries, this is an urban
00:43:01.18\00:43:03.18
movement, not a rural
movement, now you have, 6, 7,
00:43:03.18\00:43:06.31
8, 9, 10, 11 bishops, 12
bishops in a town, in a city.
00:43:06.31\00:43:11.52
Well, now you need an
archbishop, somebody who
00:43:11.52\00:43:14.69
oversees and very subtly,
but almost necessarily, you have
00:43:14.69\00:43:19.56
the emergence of a very
strong hierarchal system.
00:43:19.56\00:43:22.63
Okay?
00:43:22.63\00:43:23.93
Now, by the time this works
its way out, you get to the
00:43:23.93\00:43:26.37
5th and 6th centuries, we're
gonna end up with a head of
00:43:26.37\00:43:29.67
all of the heads
of the heads of the...
00:43:29.67\00:43:32.04
>>JEFFERY: And the point
there, David, is why follow
00:43:32.04\00:43:35.58
that model?
00:43:35.58\00:43:36.81
Because what example
did the church draw from?
00:43:36.81\00:43:40.52
In its religious phase, what
example would papal Rome draw
00:43:40.52\00:43:44.95
from in order to
structure the church?
00:43:44.95\00:43:47.79
It would draw
from imperial Rome.
00:43:47.79\00:43:49.79
It would draw from Caesar's
realm and kingdom, and so, you
00:43:49.79\00:43:53.90
have these systems of power
that we're saying there's a
00:43:53.90\00:43:57.87
blurry line
between pagan and papal.
00:43:57.87\00:44:00.17
So, this concept just
gets transferred over to the
00:44:00.17\00:44:07.04
Christianity version of Rome,
and so, you see the same power
00:44:07.04\00:44:10.81
structures, also, the
same idea transferred.
00:44:10.81\00:44:13.45
>>DAVID: So, for example,
when Constantine converts, and I
00:44:13.45\00:44:15.98
use conversion in
quotations here because there's
00:44:15.98\00:44:18.72
historical debate about what
the nature of that conversion
00:44:18.72\00:44:21.62
was.
00:44:21.62\00:44:22.66
But when he converts,
he now rules the bishops of
00:44:22.66\00:44:27.30
Christianity in an analogous
way, or in a similar way to
00:44:27.30\00:44:30.27
the way that he rules his
procurators, governors of the
00:44:30.27\00:44:33.37
empire.
00:44:33.37\00:44:34.54
So, now, a byproduct of the
conversion of Constantine is
00:44:34.54\00:44:38.07
the mingling, almost
incarnationally in one person,
00:44:38.07\00:44:41.31
Constantine in this
case, of church and state.
00:44:41.31\00:44:44.41
That will become, that is
the, here are the Christian
00:44:44.41\00:44:47.35
churches catching a cold
that it still has, to this day.
00:44:47.35\00:44:52.19
>>TY: And what you're
describing as that cold, a
00:44:52.19\00:44:55.66
minute ago, the way you said
it was really helpful for me,
00:44:55.66\00:44:58.43
and that is that suddenly,
Christianity possesses power
00:44:58.43\00:45:02.76
that it never had before,
and that's what Daniel's getting
00:45:02.76\00:45:05.60
at.
00:45:05.60\00:45:06.84
Daniel is saying not only does
the Christian church begin to
00:45:06.84\00:45:09.14
have power it never had
before, but it begins to use
00:45:09.14\00:45:13.27
that power in the way that
the Roman empire used power and
00:45:13.27\00:45:18.45
that's in this language that
it spoke pompous words against
00:45:18.45\00:45:22.18
the most high, persecuted
the saints of the most high God,
00:45:22.18\00:45:25.25
and changed the times and
laws of the most high God.
00:45:25.25\00:45:29.16
So, in other words, the
Christian church begins to use
00:45:29.16\00:45:33.23
the power of forced coercion,
the sword, in order to enforce
00:45:33.23\00:45:40.37
its belief systems.
00:45:40.37\00:45:41.77
So, now, you have this
very strange situation in which,
00:45:41.77\00:45:48.54
see if this makes sense,
the covenant that comes to us
00:45:48.54\00:45:54.48
through the line of the
law and the prophets Hebrew
00:45:54.48\00:45:56.72
thought is by definition
reciprocal love, faithfulness
00:45:56.72\00:46:03.69
from God eliciting
faithfulness in response on a
00:46:03.69\00:46:08.46
free will basis, and suddenly,
now we have a power that is
00:46:08.46\00:46:13.03
displacing covenantal
reciprocity with God, with
00:46:13.03\00:46:19.94
coercion and force and the
threat of punishment if you
00:46:19.94\00:46:24.98
don't comply with God.
00:46:24.98\00:46:27.35
So, now, yeah, so, now, by
the use of the sword, by the use
00:46:27.35\00:46:33.82
of force, military, what's
happening is the covenant is
00:46:33.82\00:46:38.76
in fact being destroyed
in the minds of people.
00:46:38.76\00:46:44.13
That's where its' taking place
like you were saying earlier,
00:46:44.13\00:46:46.40
Jeffrey, it's in the minds of
the people that they're seeing
00:46:46.40\00:46:50.74
God now in a different light.
00:46:50.74\00:46:51.94
He used to be a God of
covenantal faithfulness,
00:46:51.94\00:46:54.41
seeking free response.
00:46:54.41\00:46:55.81
Now, he's a God who's
standing over with the sword and
00:46:55.81\00:46:58.78
saying, convert or die.
00:46:58.78\00:47:00.05
>>DAVID: One of the very first
things that Constantine did,
00:47:00.05\00:47:02.75
and I keep coming back to him,
maybe 'cause I know most about
00:47:02.75\00:47:05.42
him and that's sort of the
area of church history that
00:47:05.42\00:47:07.96
I'm most familiar with.
00:47:07.96\00:47:09.19
But one of the very first
things that he did, he felt
00:47:09.19\00:47:11.73
that he had been called by
God, and there's debate about
00:47:11.73\00:47:14.76
whether or not, he didn't
even renounce all of his other
00:47:14.76\00:47:16.93
various Gods, but
that's beside the point.
00:47:16.93\00:47:18.93
He, we need to unite
Christianity and so, they
00:47:18.93\00:47:22.54
convened the council of
Nicaea, the first, and some
00:47:22.54\00:47:25.51
would say, the most definitive
council in the history of
00:47:25.51\00:47:28.18
Christianity, AD 325.
00:47:28.18\00:47:29.68
And the purpose, this
is coming off of that, the
00:47:29.68\00:47:34.08
purpose, the primary purpose
is to get unified creedily,
00:47:34.08\00:47:38.02
doctrinally, on, you know,
the point, there's a number of
00:47:38.02\00:47:40.19
points, but in particular
the relationship of Jesus to the
00:47:40.19\00:47:42.66
Father, so that they could
color people outside of the
00:47:42.66\00:47:46.46
lines.
00:47:46.46\00:47:49.03
And the implication is...
00:47:49.03\00:47:50.23
>>TY: That's heresy, that's
heresy, that's heresy, that's
00:47:50.23\00:47:52.20
heresy, yeah.
00:47:52.20\00:47:53.30
>>DAVID: So, you see that
it's not free will, it's not
00:47:53.30\00:47:55.27
voluntary, it's not growth
that we talked about at the
00:47:55.27\00:47:58.71
beginning of this
session, it's compulsory, it's
00:47:58.71\00:48:02.21
orthodox, it's dogmatic,
it's, there's no choice, what?
00:48:02.21\00:48:05.51
And now, because you have
that whole witches brew, that
00:48:05.51\00:48:10.35
mingling of the church
with the state, hey, what do you
00:48:10.35\00:48:14.29
mean he
believes the wrong thing?
00:48:14.29\00:48:16.29
Bring him over.
00:48:16.29\00:48:17.29
Right?
00:48:17.29\00:48:18.33
You're just importing
that way, that militaristic
00:48:18.33\00:48:20.66
coercive way of dealing
with spiritual matters, and the
00:48:20.66\00:48:23.80
language I'm using here
is that Christianity caught a
00:48:23.80\00:48:26.23
cold that it will have all
through the Christian empire
00:48:26.23\00:48:31.24
period, all through what
we refer to as the medieval
00:48:31.24\00:48:33.24
period, all through the
modern period, even now into the
00:48:33.24\00:48:35.48
post-modern period.
00:48:35.48\00:48:36.81
>>TY: Yeah, it showed up
among the protestant reformers
00:48:36.81\00:48:40.08
themselves who were struggling
to understand grace and love
00:48:40.08\00:48:44.59
and freedom and were on a
course in that direction, but
00:48:44.59\00:48:49.09
themselves were engaged
in persecution of those who
00:48:49.09\00:48:53.66
didn't agree with their
particular formulation of
00:48:53.66\00:48:57.30
theology, and we have a
manifestation of that today in
00:48:57.30\00:49:02.87
what is oftentimes referred
to as the Christian right, which
00:49:02.87\00:49:07.08
is really no longer a thing,
presently, that language isn't
00:49:07.08\00:49:10.51
being used so much, but
this idea that Christianity
00:49:10.51\00:49:14.42
constitutes a political voting
block that can impose upon the
00:49:14.42\00:49:20.62
broader culture its
will by political process.
00:49:20.62\00:49:25.96
So, it's another manifestation.
00:49:25.96\00:49:27.96
>>DAVID: This is
probably, we're gonna get there
00:49:27.96\00:49:29.93
eventually, but the reason
that, the religious right of
00:49:29.93\00:49:33.34
the, you know, Christian right
has ceased to exist in some,
00:49:33.34\00:49:36.50
you know, that language
isn't really the language.
00:49:36.50\00:49:38.94
That's only by virtue of
the times in which we live.
00:49:38.94\00:49:41.44
There, if people could have
the authority, oh, hello, of
00:49:41.44\00:49:45.55
course they would.
00:49:45.55\00:49:46.78
So, it's just a product of the
times in which we live that we
00:49:46.78\00:49:49.82
don't see the manifestation
of that basic spirit of how the
00:49:49.82\00:49:53.05
church relates to the
state in relationship to others.
00:49:53.05\00:49:56.09
>>JEFFERY: As in
Augustine, is Constantine.
00:49:56.09\00:49:58.09
Constantine shows
up and there it is.
00:49:58.09\00:50:00.76
>>TY: The difference
between the covenantal God in
00:50:00.76\00:50:03.33
scripture and everything else
that we're talking about that
00:50:03.33\00:50:07.20
Daniel's prophesying of,
is that God possesses power,
00:50:07.20\00:50:12.27
holds it in reserve in favor
of freedom so that love can
00:50:12.27\00:50:16.31
exist.
00:50:16.31\00:50:17.38
Whereas the thing that
Daniel's foretelling is can
00:50:17.38\00:50:23.12
any human organization
or institution or system or
00:50:23.12\00:50:27.06
power, can any human
organization possess power and
00:50:27.06\00:50:31.83
refrain from using
it to force conscience?
00:50:31.83\00:50:33.76
refrain from using
it to force conscience?
00:50:34.83\00:50:36.53
[Laughter]
00:50:36.53\00:50:37.77
>>DAVID: History would say no.
00:50:37.77\00:50:38.93
>>TY: History would say no.
00:50:38.93\00:50:40.14
As soon as you have the power,
you want to encroach, yeah.
00:50:40.14\00:50:44.91
>>DAVID: Absolute
power corrupts absolutely.
00:50:44.91\00:50:46.47
>>TY: Yeah.
00:50:46.47\00:50:48.04
>>DAVID: What I love about
this and I'm, I guess all of
00:50:48.04\00:50:50.75
us here, all of us here
at this table converts to the
00:50:50.75\00:50:53.95
Christian faith, right?
00:50:53.95\00:50:55.52
In other words, not raised in
strong Christian homes, right?
00:50:55.52\00:50:58.95
For me, back in 1996,
1997, when I'm coming to faith,
00:50:58.95\00:51:04.83
about 20 years ago, the
thing that perhaps more than
00:51:04.83\00:51:08.00
anything that just impressed
me, that just settled on my
00:51:08.00\00:51:10.67
mind were these prophecies
about the shape of history.
00:51:10.67\00:51:15.44
This is what history will look
like, it will be shaped like
00:51:15.44\00:51:19.97
this.
00:51:19.97\00:51:21.01
Okay, the prophecies of
Daniel, for example, given
00:51:21.01\00:51:22.98
some 500-600 years before the
time of Jesus, okay, Jesus is
00:51:22.98\00:51:27.25
2,000 years ago, here we are,
so you're talking 2600 years
00:51:27.25\00:51:30.99
of human years, 2500-2600
years of human history and
00:51:30.99\00:51:34.06
scripture is saying, this
is the shape, look for this
00:51:34.06\00:51:36.73
shape, and so, we're
talking around with a sort of
00:51:36.73\00:51:38.73
template, saying, oh.
00:51:38.73\00:51:40.43
>>TY: Yeah, and
sure enough, it shows up.
00:51:40.43\00:51:42.66
>>DAVID: Come on.
00:51:42.66\00:51:45.13
We were talking earlier before
the session started, Jeffrey
00:51:45.13\00:51:48.07
and I, I think one of you
might've been in that as well,
00:51:48.07\00:51:50.07
about how people, in various,
you know, sort of scholastic
00:51:50.07\00:51:53.61
and academic circles deny
the prophetic intentionality of
00:51:53.61\00:51:57.11
the book of Daniel.
00:51:57.11\00:51:58.18
They say, now, come on,
there's no prophecies there,
00:51:58.18\00:52:00.12
that's not, you believe that?
00:52:00.12\00:52:01.35
But you know, for me, forgive
me for being, you know, maybe
00:52:01.35\00:52:04.09
a bit of a naivety here,
but the proof is in the pudding.
00:52:04.09\00:52:08.29
You know, it's like, this
is what history will look like.
00:52:08.29\00:52:11.26
And here we are, with
the luxury as we have of
00:52:11.26\00:52:13.70
historical perspective,
and that is what history looks
00:52:13.70\00:52:16.06
like?
00:52:16.06\00:52:17.07
it's just a happy coincidence?
00:52:17.07\00:52:19.17
And somebody could say,
well, that's just you're
00:52:19.17\00:52:21.17
interpretation, but as we're
gonna see in this series, that
00:52:21.17\00:52:23.71
interpretation has been the
interpretation of people down
00:52:23.71\00:52:26.64
through the ages.
00:52:26.64\00:52:27.78
This is not just something
that David, Jeffrey, James,
00:52:27.78\00:52:29.64
and Ty came up with.
00:52:29.64\00:52:30.78
That feel for the shape of
human history from something
00:52:30.78\00:52:33.28
formed, something deformed,
something reformed, this is
00:52:33.28\00:52:37.55
mind blowing.
00:52:37.55\00:52:38.75
>>TY: And just, internally,
in Daniel itself, as we already
00:52:38.75\00:52:42.92
mentioned before, but it bears
repeating, Daniel's prophecies
00:52:42.92\00:52:46.46
specifically name and identify
Babylon as the first power in
00:52:46.46\00:52:50.90
the succession of powers.
00:52:50.90\00:52:52.83
So, again, you can
back up in the bible.
00:52:52.83\00:52:55.94
It tells you where to start.
00:52:55.94\00:52:57.21
It says, Babylon.
00:52:57.21\00:52:59.11
It actually names Medo-Persia.
>>DAVID: And then it says Greece
00:52:59.11\00:53:02.31
[Laughter]
00:53:02.31\00:53:03.41
>>JEFFERY: He's basically
saying, when you get to the
00:53:03.41\00:53:04.51
library, start in this aisle.
00:53:04.51\00:53:06.75
>>TY: That's right, yeah.
00:53:06.75\00:53:08.32
>>TY: Which means that if you
follow the succession of powers
00:53:08.32\00:53:11.89
through, you end up with
what Daniel describes as a power
00:53:11.89\00:53:17.63
that has certain
characteristics that aligns
00:53:17.63\00:53:20.40
itself against the activities
of God in the world through
00:53:20.40\00:53:24.77
his church.
00:53:24.77\00:53:25.80
>>DAVID: And the
shorthand for that is covenant.
00:53:25.80\00:53:30.51
The shorthand, that's how
we're using it in here, the
00:53:30.51\00:53:32.51
shorthand for God's activities
in the world, whether Old
00:53:32.51\00:53:34.84
Testament or New
Testament in Christ, covenant.
00:53:34.84\00:53:37.15
That's what we mean.
00:53:37.15\00:53:38.21
>>TY: And shorthand for
the activities of this power
00:53:38.21\00:53:41.72
against God, rage
against the covenant.
00:53:41.72\00:53:45.92
It's diametrically opposed to
God relating to people in this
00:53:45.92\00:53:52.93
dynamic, interactive,
reciprocal manner in which
00:53:52.93\00:53:57.10
love is sustained as the
connection between God and his
00:53:57.10\00:54:00.40
creatures.
00:54:00.40\00:54:01.50
>>DAVID: We sometimes
refer to that as the love, risk,
00:54:01.50\00:54:03.94
freedom,
responsibility paradigm.
00:54:03.94\00:54:05.94
The idea that, you know, you
have to have freedom in order
00:54:05.94\00:54:07.94
to have love, you have to have
risk in order to have freedom,
00:54:07.94\00:54:10.71
this idea that God is relating
to us, as we talked about in
00:54:10.71\00:54:14.25
the first session, I loved
that, you know, Abraham, he's
00:54:14.25\00:54:16.45
coming down, there's this
accommodationist principle,
00:54:16.45\00:54:18.65
he's with us, he's proximate
to us, he's adjacent to us,
00:54:18.65\00:54:24.76
this notion, it's so
interesting because not only
00:54:24.76\00:54:28.80
with the sword, but
with the pen, we're gonna see
00:54:28.80\00:54:31.80
scholastically, that notion
is gonna be, no, God is not next
00:54:31.80\00:54:36.64
to, adjacent, approximate,
he is, so there's gonna be a war
00:54:36.64\00:54:41.44
against
Christianity on so many levels.
00:54:41.44\00:54:43.85
And the mind blowing thing is
that it will come at the hands
00:54:43.85\00:54:48.75
of the Christian church.
00:54:48.75\00:54:50.22
That's the bombshell.
00:54:50.22\00:54:51.35
>>JEFFERY: That's the
bombshell he's pointing to
00:54:51.35\00:54:53.99
here, isn't it?
00:54:53.99\00:54:55.12
The issue is
within, not without.
00:54:55.12\00:54:57.56
>>TY: Yeah, Daniel actually
foretells the formation of
00:54:57.56\00:55:02.16
fallen Christianity occupying
the position of imperial Rome
00:55:02.16\00:55:10.21
and the building of this
monolithic system that exists
00:55:10.21\00:55:15.34
in history, plain for anybody
to see, there it is, for over
00:55:15.34\00:55:19.65
1,000 years, doing
certain actions in history like
00:55:19.65\00:55:24.09
persecuting in the name
of Jesus, like speaking great
00:55:24.09\00:55:29.82
words of theological
pronouncements that are
00:55:29.82\00:55:34.13
against, directly against
the principles of the gospel.
00:55:34.13\00:55:38.60
>>DAVID: And in our next
session, we're gonna go to a
00:55:38.60\00:55:40.60
New Testament passage that
is based on, riveted to Daniel
00:55:40.60\00:55:45.24
7,8,9, and 11, in the writings
of Paul, where this isn't just
00:55:45.24\00:55:49.91
Jeffrey, David, James, Ty,
Paul is gonna say, hey, that
00:55:49.91\00:55:52.85
whole Daniel thing?
00:55:52.85\00:55:53.85
You need to understand that.
00:55:53.85\00:55:55.02
That's the shape of what
the Christian church looks like,
00:55:55.02\00:55:58.82
or what this power
looks like through the ages.
00:55:58.82\00:56:00.92
>>TY: So, I guess we've titled
this session rage against the
00:56:00.92\00:56:06.49
covenant, grounded in
Daniel, and we have allowed the
00:56:06.49\00:56:10.90
prophet to open before our
understanding a clear sense of
00:56:10.90\00:56:15.17
where we are in history
prior to the launching of the
00:56:15.17\00:56:20.28
Protestant reformation.
00:56:20.28\00:56:21.48
So, next session is
going to be exciting.
00:56:21.48\00:56:23.48
>>DAVID: Explosive.
00:56:23.48\00:56:26.05
[Music]
00:56:26.05\00:56:32.42
?usic]
00:56:35.49\00:56:35.82