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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000411A
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00:00 [Music] 00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: It's really a privilege to know you guys and to have 00:24 this friendship. 00:25 Oh, David, do you feel that? 00:28 Do you feel that? 00:29 >>DAVID: That was a moment right there. 00:30 >>TY: That was a moment. 00:31 It's a privilege to know you guys and to have this 00:32 friendship, not just because of the friendship dimension 00:39 but I'm coming to realize that if a friendship is centered in 00:44 Christ, it adds a quality to the friendship that you don't 00:49 have if the friendship is centered on anything else that 00:53 a friendship could be centered on. 00:55 I know people who their primary point of interest and 01:00 contact with one another is their job, their profession. 01:04 For others, it's an interest in a hobby or money, sports, 01:10 something like that. 01:11 There's all kinds of things that people can connect on, 01:13 and that people should connect on, it's wonderful that people 01:15 connect on all kinds of different levels, but man, 01:18 there is something incredible about resonating mentally and 01:25 emotionally and spiritually with another human being, 01:28 isn't there? 01:29 Where you see what they see, they see what you see, and 01:33 there is this incredible thing that sometimes we refer to as 01:37 cross-pollinating that occurs where what you see added to 01:43 what I see... 01:44 >>DAVID: That happened right at the end of the last session 01:45 for me, with the things that James was saying. 01:48 >>JEFFREY: Or the wording, just slightly different 01:50 wording and it just paints a different picture. 01:52 >>TY: Because you already have a context in what you see, 01:55 you've read some stuff, you've studied, your mind has been 01:57 open to something, so you see something in a way that none 02:01 of the others see something, even if it's the same thing. 02:05 You see it from a different angle, yeah, and then somebody 02:07 opens their mouth and says, but what about this? 02:10 And suddenly, in your context, with your knowledge, with your 02:14 perspective, you can see the thing in a way that they 02:18 didn't even see it when they said what they said and you 02:21 can speak back to them and it just creates this rippling 02:25 effect of perspective. 02:28 We grow in fellowship with one another and part of the genius 02:34 of Table Talk is that it has been encouraging other people 02:38 to do this. 02:39 I just keep getting people contacting, and I know you 02:44 guys have, too, I'll be travelling, I'll be somewhere, 02:46 and we're doing that, we're doing that, in our home, in 02:50 our church. 02:52 We're doing our own little Table Talk, praise God. 02:55 Because it's not just us. 02:59 We're just trying to share with people what we know and 03:02 in the process, model, hey, you can do this, you can have 03:06 spiritual fellowship. 03:07 So, I just love it, I just love doing this because I'm 03:11 learning so much in the process. 03:14 >>DAVID: Proverbs 27:17, as iron sharpens iron, so a man 03:18 sharpens the countenance of his friend. 03:21 I like the idea there of friend, which is what you are 03:23 talking about. 03:24 I think, too, that this requires, not that we're 03:27 bastions of humility or of piety, but it does require a 03:30 certain level of humility, a willingness to put yourself 03:33 out and say what you think is the case, which can be 03:35 humbling for people, and it can be intimidating, but then, 03:38 maybe even more so, a willingness to listen and to 03:41 say, okay, alright, I see that, versus, you know, 03:44 somebody's here as the teacher and we'll all sit and listen 03:48 to what he or she has to say, it's mutual. 03:50 I love that. 03:52 >>TY: Yeah, and sometimes, it has to go a step further. 03:54 You have to, the humility is beyond, okay, I see that, and 03:58 it's wow, I was wrong on that. 04:00 I saw that in a way that is not correct and thank you for 04:06 explaining that because now I see it way more clearly than I 04:09 did before. 04:10 >>JEFFREY: And voicing our view is not just for the 04:12 benefit of the listener, but I'm finding understanding more 04:15 of what I'm thinking, just by having to attempt to 04:19 articulate it. 04:20 >>TY: Yeah, isn't that great? 04:21 Okay, so, we're on a journey through the New Testament book 04:25 of Revelation. 04:26 We're calling this series the Revelation series and it's 04:30 been pretty exciting so far. 04:31 We've been just systematically moving through the book and 04:34 we've come to chapter 14, and we got through, last session, 04:38 we got through about verse 11, yeah, verse 11, and we really 04:44 have to pause and look at verse 12, in particular, but 04:49 also the remainder of the chapter, because verse 12, let 04:52 me see if this can, this is not real clear in my mind, but 04:56 I'm gonna say it this way, the book of Revelation, as we said 05:00 earlier, is a chiastic structure, like a capital A, 05:04 like a mountain, and at the top of that mountain is the 05:08 interpretive lens for the whole book and that's the 05:10 great controversy vision that is chapters 12 through about, 05:17 yeah, 14, to the end of chapter 14. 05:20 That's the great controversy vision, okay? 05:23 Now, here's the interesting thing, within the scope of the 05:25 great controversy vision, there is a pinnacle point. 05:30 There is a focal point. 05:32 >>JEFFREY: There's a chiasm within the chiasm. 05:34 >>TY: Thank you, there's a chiasm within the chiasm, and 05:37 at the pinnacle of the great controversy vision is verse 12. 05:44 This is the real point of the whole book of Revelation, 05:49 verse 12. 05:50 >>DAVID: That's a big claim. 05:51 We should know that that's a big, big claim, and we 05:53 recognize that's a big claim. 05:54 >>TY: So, let's read the verse and see what it's all about. 05:59 Jeffrey, verse 12, Revelation 14:12. 06:01 >>JEFFREY: Here is the patience of the saints. 06:04 Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the 06:07 faith of Jesus. 06:10 >>TY: Okay, so is that, does it strike you as profound as I 06:15 suggested that it is, or...? 06:16 >>DAVID: Well, let me say, I think the answer is absolutely 06:20 yes on two levels, and I'll just throw this out there. 06:24 The first is, its location, where verse 12 comes in 06:27 relationship to everything that we've been seeing, here's 06:29 a brief summary, Revelation 12 is the big picture vision, 06:31 dragon, war, heaven, that thing. 06:34 Revelation 13, these are the means by which the dragon 06:37 makes his war with God's people. 06:39 >>JEFFREY: Two beasts. 06:40 >>DAVID: The two beasts, the sea beast and the land beast. 06:42 Revelation 14 is the summary that there will be people, 06:44 that little parenthetical statement about those that 06:46 were on Mount Zion that will not capitulate, that will not 06:49 go along, which is 1-5, then it's like, this is the 06:51 message, that's their character, here's their 06:53 content, and then it's this statement, this encapsulated 06:57 summary statement of the fact that this message will 07:02 prevail, these people will prevail, their character, they 07:05 will not be defiled with woman, all of that, and it's 07:07 like, it's shrunk down to this summary statement that the 07:12 dragon and the beasts will not ultimately prevail over God's 07:17 people or over Jesus in God's people, so to me, yeah, it's 07:21 just shrinked. 07:22 >>JEFFREY: And it shows the ground for their endurance. 07:25 >>TY: It's like, have you heard the saying, the oak is 07:29 in the acorn? 07:31 So, all the potential for the oak tree is in this small 07:36 little seed. 07:38 That verse has Jesus and his faith toward the Father, his 07:43 faith in us. 07:45 Jesus, in this text, is moving all directions and Jesus is 07:49 the center here. 07:50 The faith of Jesus is the point. 07:53 And the faith of Jesus is projecting out from him to us 07:58 and producing in us a reciprocal faith, and that 08:02 reciprocal faith manifests itself in keeping the 08:05 commandments of God, and that constitutes the final 08:09 testimony, in it's mature state, before the universe, 08:15 including the inhabitants of earth, the inhabitants of 08:18 heaven, remember we said, somewhere, I can't remember 08:22 where, we said that the testimony was for the four 08:24 living creatures and the 24 elders toward us and then, at 08:29 one point, we're talking back to them and saying, yep, we 08:31 agree, everything that you've realized about the Father, now 08:35 we've realized about the Father. 08:37 >>JAMES: It's comparing 4 and 5 to 14. 08:39 Revelation 4 and 5 to 14. 08:41 >>TY: So, this is like the final stand of the people of 08:44 God on earth with their mature faith that is the faith of 08:49 Jesus. 08:50 >>DAVID: It's a reflection of God's faithfulness to us. 08:52 >>JAMES: You know, I really like this because I think that 08:56 this verse summarizes a real difficult issue that God has 08:59 been dealing with throughout the whole course of sin and 09:02 rebellion and the issue is, is that you have this, if you 09:05 will, dichotomy between the commandments of God and the 09:08 faith of Jesus. 09:09 And when you define the faith of Jesus as Christ's faith 09:13 towards us, the way that he looks at humanity, the faith 09:16 he's put toward us in that he hopes all things, believes all 09:19 things, endures all things, dies for us, and wants to 09:22 instill that thing in us that the way we look at other 09:26 people, hoping all things, believing all things, enduring 09:28 all things, and then, the commandments of God, which, if 09:31 you really define it, yeah, it's love, but it is 09:34 commandment keeping. 09:35 In other words, there's this obedience aspect and then, 09:38 there's this love aspect, there's the faith aspect, 09:40 there's this hope aspect, and they seem to be opposites, so, 09:43 if you go back to the Old Testament, for example, you 09:46 have most of the Jewish people coming down to Christ's time, 09:50 having this real strong emphasis on obedience, so much 09:54 so that they don't even want to keep Christ's body on the 09:58 cross over the Sabbath 'cause they wanna keep the Sabbath. 10:00 And yet, they reject Jesus, they don't have... 10:05 >>DAVID: You pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have 10:09 neglected the weight of your matters of the law, Matthew 23. 10:12 >>JAMES: So, then, you come to post-cross, post Calvary, and 10:17 you come into the Christian era, the new covenant era, the 10:21 grace era, and you have this really strong emphasis on the 10:24 faith of Jesus, if you will, on seeing and loving and 10:27 accepting people as they are, and in a sense, an abandonment 10:31 of the law of God, an abandonment of the obedience 10:34 to the commandments of God, as we understand them, and it 10:37 seems like Old Testament, there's this emphasis with an 10:39 abandonment of Christ, in the New Testament, there's this 10:41 emphasis with an abandonment of the law, but all of a 10:43 sudden, here, in Revelation 14, you've got this group of 10:47 people who not only keep the commandments of God, but in 10:50 spite of that, they don't get self-righteous, they don't get 10:53 hooked up on being better than other people, they still have 10:56 this faith of Jesus toward every single individual, we 10:59 talked, in this conversation, we've talked about leaders in 11:02 high places, we've talked about presidents and popes and 11:05 kings and rulers and the bottom line in the bible is 11:09 that we wouldn't criticize, we wouldn't be judgmental, we 11:12 wouldn't be sarcastic about even the worst of men. 11:15 But we would actually pray for them and intercede for them 11:18 and be willing to give our lives for them, as Paul did 11:20 for the Jews. 11:22 >>TY: That, to me, by the way, is a stinging correction to me. 11:24 >>JAMES: Well, it is to all of us. 11:27 >>TY: Because, in this election season, man, it's 11:29 hard to really have a positive attitude on some of these 11:33 politicians. 11:34 >>JAMES: But that's the faith of Jesus, that's the ultimate 11:37 goal, that's where we're headed. 11:38 You, all of us are headed toward this faith of Jesus, 11:42 the final, boom, we land right there, the faith of Jesus, 11:44 while, at the same time, we continue to keep the 11:47 commandments of God. 11:49 And it's a dichotomy, it's a tension there that God is 11:52 developing through the everlasting gospel. 11:54 >>JEFFREY: What do you think of the word patience, here's 11:55 the patience of the saints? 11:56 I looked it up here and the word actually means cheerful 12:01 endurance. 12:02 Here is the cheerful endurance of the saints, the ones that 12:06 keep the commandments of God in the faith of Jesus. 12:08 And you were talking about that tension, and you were 12:12 talking about not being critical and judgmental and 12:15 cynical. 12:16 I love the fact that, in the context of this intense test 12:21 that the people of God will face in the end, they haven't 12:24 assumed the posture of just this negative, critical 12:30 separation from all things of the world, but their attitude, 12:35 their disposition is cheerful endurance. 12:39 So, there's still this attractiveness about them. 12:41 I mean, nobody's attracted to long-faced religion. 12:44 Nobody's attracted to people who... 12:46 >>JAMES: No one's attracted to critical, criticism, either, 12:48 and the reason why people are critical is because that guy 12:51 is such a dastardly guy. 12:53 Well, why is he so dastardly? 12:54 Well, because we're such good people, we're such law 12:55 keepers. 12:57 We don't talk about people like that, we don't act that 12:58 way, we don't treat people that way... 13:00 >>JEFFREY: You're talking about being self-righteous. 13:01 >>JAMES: Yeah, a lot of people are attracted to these kind of 13:04 people because they're just the same, they're the same, 13:05 and so they're supportive and right. 13:07 >>JEFFREY: But these guys have assumed a different, I love 13:09 that, cheerful endurance. 13:11 >>TY: On that word endurance or patience, that word is 13:16 occurring again in a context. 13:19 So, if you're enduring, for example, if you're enduring in 13:23 an athletic endeavor, running, riding a bike, rowing, 13:29 something like that, it assumes that there's a thing 13:34 that you're enduring in, and the context here is the third 13:41 angel's message, second angel's message, first angel's 13:43 message, they're enduring in the everlasting gospel, 13:47 they're enduring in love when love is being drained out of 13:50 the world. 13:52 >>DAVID: That's the whole thing you showed us yesterday 13:53 that Dr. Bishof showed you about Matthew 24. 13:55 Love is going down, but love keeps, yeah, that was amazing. 14:00 >>JAMES: It fits right in here. 14:02 It has to. 14:03 >>TY: But back on the thing that you were talking about, 14:05 James, of this tension between, I guess, faith and 14:10 works, the faith of Jesus and the commandments of God, I 14:15 think this is brilliant, because there has been, down 14:20 through Christian history, and if you take in, as you were 14:25 saying, Jewish history, the history of Israel, human 14:29 beings tend to run to extremes, right? 14:32 We tend to be imbalanced and that's a part of our 14:35 dysfunction as human beings, where we tend to emphasize 14:39 obedience and law and justice to the exclusion or minimizing 14:43 of mercy, forgiveness, and that kind of, that side, or we 14:46 tend to eclipse obedience and the law and justice in favor 14:52 of mercy. 14:53 But what this is describing is a people in whom there is this 14:57 kind of equilibrium, this balance between these two. 15:02 So, they're not rejecting the law in favor of faith and 15:06 they're not rejecting faith in favor of the law, in fact, I 15:11 think it would be accurate to say that there is no 15:14 separation between faith and law, is there? 15:17 They are a synergistic hold. 15:19 >>DAVID: And that's what I appreciate about James is your 15:22 summary because you were not saying that there is an actual 15:25 demarcation or division or polarity between the two, but 15:29 that it's perceived that way. 15:31 So, I think you're exactly correct. 15:34 This is something that the human being brings in his or 15:37 her perception to the perceived contrast between 15:41 faith and works and love and law, but and you see in Jesus. 15:48 Okay, so, Jesus, of course, they have the faith of Jesus. 15:51 Jesus is the perfect embodiment of a supreme love 15:54 for mankind, that horizontal affection and kindness and 15:58 magnanimity that flowed out from him, but he was perfectly 16:02 in harmony and in connection with his heavenly Father. 16:05 There's no, you couldn't point to the seam and be like, okay, 16:08 well, here's where Jesus's faith stops, and here's where 16:11 the obedience starts. 16:12 They're one and the same, is that your point? 16:15 >>TY: Yeah, that's the point. 16:16 >>JEFFREY: Is that implicit in the text? 16:18 Here's the patience of the saints, that's the patience, 16:22 and then the remainder of the verse is just describing what 16:26 endurance actually is. 16:28 And in that description, both things are in the description. 16:32 In other words, if one of the two commandments of God, or 16:35 the faith of Jesus, is missing, then that no longer 16:37 qualifies as true endurance. 16:39 >>TY: Yeah, you don't have the thing. 16:41 >>JEFFREY: Right, so I think that's in the text, it's 16:43 actually right there. 16:44 >>JAMES: I wanna say something interesting here that just 16:46 came to my mind, but I'm thinking about Ezekiel 28, 16:48 where it describes Satan, Lucifer, before the fall, his 16:51 pipes were prepared within him, and it came to my mind 16:54 this illustration of for example, in heaven, of course, 16:57 harps, but a guitar, guitar strings have to be tuned 17:01 perfectly in order to make the sound, in order to bring forth 17:04 the sound that we all know is correct. 17:08 And in order to get a string tuned perfectly, you can't 17:12 have it too tight and you can't have it too loose. 17:15 So, when we look at these extremes, the tightness and 17:18 the looseness is the one extreme or the other, and as 17:20 we get too extreme to the love or sentimentalism or too 17:23 extreme to the legalism, and you know, obedience as 17:26 divorcing from love, we have the sound isn't right. 17:31 >>JEFFREY: We're out of tune. 17:32 >>JAMES: We're out of tune and God wants to bring the world 17:34 back into tune, he wants to bring us back into harmony, he 17:37 wants the music that we, that comes forth from us to be in 17:40 perfect illustration, a revelation of his heart, of 17:44 his love, of the music of heaven. 17:46 >>TY: I think a good way to say what we're trying to get 17:49 at is that the bible doesn't teach faith and works, the 17:55 bible teaches faith that works, in Galatians. 17:59 It's a continuum. 18:01 It's one thing, you can't have one without the other, that's 18:04 the book of James, right? 18:05 If you say you have faith, but you don't have works, well, 18:07 there's a problem with your faith. 18:10 Your faith isn't even faith. 18:12 I mean, you think it's faith, but... 18:14 >>JAMES: He says it's the faith of devils. 18:15 >>TY: Yeah, it's not the real deal, it's not the real thing. 18:18 Some people, a lot in Christianity, there's a lot of 18:22 talk, sometimes, about the law of God being nailed to the 18:27 cross and done away with and abolished and that kind of 18:29 language that the law of the Old Testament, we don't need 18:32 that, we don't need the law anymore. 18:34 The technical word for that is antinomianism, or anti-law, 18:38 but if you take the definition of Jesus and Paul and the 18:42 whole of the bible, in fact, that the law is love, that 18:46 really, it's love for human beings and love for God, who 18:52 would really want to translate that's, love is abolished, 18:57 love is done away with, there is no more love, we don't need 18:59 love. 19:00 Well, okay, if you don't need love, what do you need? 19:03 >>JAMES: Ty, another take on that, this is just a thought, 19:05 just to throw it at you, just for you to consider, Jesus was 19:08 the embodiment of the law and he was nailed to the cross. 19:12 And the cross is the thing that Christians exalt and so, 19:16 when we look at the law being nailed to the cross from a 19:19 different perspective, we're looking at the cross being 19:21 exalted, and therefore, the law being exalted, and what 19:23 I'm saying is, is that when Christ came and died on the 19:26 cross, he exalted the law. 19:28 He exalted it and therefore, when we see Christ on the 19:31 cross, we see the embodiment of the law being sacrificed in 19:35 the context of his forgiveness, his sacrifice for 19:38 our sins, but not being done away with, being lifted up, 19:41 being exalted, just like the cross is exalted. 19:43 >>DAVID: It magnifies the law. 19:44 >>TY: Yeah, okay, we have to take a break, but we spent our 19:49 whole first second on that verse which was fine because 19:51 that verse is powerful, who knows, maybe we'll come back 19:54 to it. 19:56 to it. 20:08 >>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson, welcome to digma.com. 20:11 I am so excited about this website because you're about 20:14 to discover a powerful new way to share life transforming 20:18 messages and videos with your family, friends, and anybody 20:22 else on the planet who has access to a computer. 20:26 Digma is a Greek word. 20:27 It basically means, to show or to reveal something by means 20:31 of a pattern or an example of some kind. 20:34 It's the second half of the word paradigma, from which we 20:38 get the English word paradigm, as in paradigm shift. 20:43 And so, what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 20:46 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 20:49 paradigms and fundamental questions. 20:52 What's the meaning of life? 20:53 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 20:58 What happens when we die? 21:00 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 21:05 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 21:09 An estimated 70% of Americans have a computer right in their 21:14 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email, 21:18 and more than 400 million people are active on Facebook, 21:22 and 5 million new users are signing up every week. 21:27 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution 21:32 of massive proportion. 21:34 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 21:38 millions upon millions of homes and hearts, and that's 21:44 what digma.com is all about. 21:47 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 21:50 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 21:54 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 21:58 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about 22:04 who God is. 22:06 who God is. 22:23 >>TY: So, we were just looking at what might be considered 22:26 the key verse in Revelation chapter 14 and verse 12 is 22:30 that key verse. 22:32 I wanna make one more point and see what you guys think of 22:34 this. 22:35 Notice that the language is that these individuals who 22:38 endure and keep the commandments of God have the 22:40 faith of Jesus. 22:41 This is not, we need to distinguish here, this text is 22:45 not talking about faith in Jesus, this text is not 22:49 saying, is not talking about you having faith in him, it's 22:54 talking about us having his very faith. 22:58 So, it's describing, I think... 23:01 >>JEFFREY: His faith that we possess. 23:03 >>TY: Yes. 23:04 Jesus had a particular quality, kind, whatever, type 23:06 of faith, in his relationship with the Father and his 23:09 relationship with human beings. 23:11 He related in a certain way to God and to humans. 23:13 The way Jesus relates to God and human beings is now 23:18 reproduced in these people. 23:20 That's what's being said, I think. 23:22 >>DAVID: I agree, totally. 23:24 >>TY: So, that would include, then, faith in Jesus right, 23:28 because it would become reciprocal. 23:31 His faith in us is the basis. 23:35 So, let me see if this makes sense. 23:37 Our whole faith toward him is based on his faith toward us. 23:44 So, his faithfulness... 23:46 >>DAVID: If you just substitute the word love, the 23:48 same thing holds true, the same principle that you just 23:51 articulated, the same formula that you just articulated 23:54 holds true if you say love. 23:55 Our love to God is a reflection, a mirror 23:59 reflection, you could say, of his love toward us. 24:03 His loyalty, our loyalty and allegiance to him is a mere 24:07 reflection of his loyalty and allegiance to us. 24:09 >>JEFFREY: The bible says that clearly in 1 John, is it 3, we 24:12 love him because he first loved us. 24:14 >>DAVID: A lot of people draw the line, and I think Ty's 24:16 point is a great point, a lot of people draw the line at 24:18 faith. 24:19 Love is the thing that God does, yeah, our love reflects 24:21 his, loyalty, our loyalty reflects his, but that is also 24:24 true for faith, it is also true that our, James, you made 24:28 the point earlier that love believes all things and hopes 24:31 all things and endures all things. 24:32 So, if God is love and love believes all things, who's the 24:35 greatest believer? 24:37 This is the way I've been saying, I love this, too, this 24:39 is the way I've been saying it in my preaching lately, that 24:41 the big story is not our love for God, it's God's love for us. 24:46 And the big story is not our faith in God, it's God's faith 24:48 and belief that we can be more than just sinners. 24:53 And he injects that into us and everybody at this table 24:55 knows the power of words like this. 24:59 James, you can do it. 25:01 I believe in you, Jeffrey. 25:02 Ty, you're the right man for the job. 25:04 When somebody else expresses confidence, hope, belief in 25:08 you, it buoys you up. 25:09 What, you? 25:10 You believe in me? 25:11 It's not just a mutual thing where we believe in one 25:15 another. 25:16 We're equals. 25:17 God believes in us because he sees the potential. 25:19 We're made in his image and when he fills us with his 25:21 spirit, we can rise to a level that our little miniscule, 25:25 non-existent, mediocre faith could never attain. 25:27 >>JEFFREY: So, faith is the substance of things hoped for, 25:29 the evidence of things not seen. 25:31 So, God is seeing something in you... 25:33 >>DAVID: A hundred percent. 25:34 Go and sin no more. 25:36 Jesus says to the woman caught in adultery, go and sin no 25:37 more. 25:39 We often read that as a command, hey, you better not 25:40 sin any more. 25:42 No, Jesus sees a future for her that she can't see for 25:44 herself. 25:45 >>TY: And could you add to that that he has shown faith 25:48 in us because he knows the power of his love to do all 25:52 that in us? 25:53 You know what I mean? 25:55 >>DAVID: Faith, love, hope. 25:56 >>JAMES: And therefore, the operative word in this verse, 25:58 the key word in this verse is keep. 26:01 the key word in this verse is keep. 26:03 Here are they that keep. 26:04 Here are they that keep. 26:05 >>DAVID: Retain, hold. 26:07 >>JAMES: Could you keep this for me? 26:08 >>JAMES: Could you keep this for me? 26:09 I'm gonna give you this faith, I'm gonna give you these 26:11 commandments. 26:13 In other words, the operative word is keep because what 26:15 these guys are doing is they're not producing 26:17 something in themselves. 26:19 >>TY: I see your point now. 26:21 >>JAMES: They're keeping what God is giving them. 26:22 >>JEFFREY: Ty is like, what, what, what? 26:24 >>TY: I was like heresy, and then, I was like, oh, yeah. 26:27 >>JAMES: Jesus is giving us his faith and he's giving us 26:29 his love and he's saying, keep it. 26:31 >>DAVID: Good illustration. 26:32 Keep the Sabbath holy. 26:35 Keep the Sabbath holy. 26:35 The Sabbath is holy. 26:37 Keep it that way. 26:39 Keep it that way. 26:39 Here's my faith, keep that. 26:41 You like that? 26:42 >>TY: So, we have to hurry now, because Jeffrey had so 26:45 much to say about that. 26:46 >>DAVID: I hate hurrying. 26:47 >>TY: So do I. 26:48 So, let's just be cas about this, but I think there's a 26:52 connection between what's happening in verse 12 and the 26:56 ripening and the harvesting of the earth that follows in the 26:59 remaining verses. 27:01 >>JAMES: So much, so connected, Ty. 27:02 Look at this, look, we just talked about this, we just 27:04 talked about the fact that we start magnifying, for example, 27:08 the faith of Jesus, we go, wow, my conversation the last 27:12 few days hasn't been very faith of Jesus-y. 27:14 I've struggled a little bit with people and characters and 27:19 I need to endure and have patience through this next 27:21 election to make the faith of Jesus a reality in my life. 27:25 It's true, though. 27:26 I mean, if you think about it, the political scenario in the 27:31 United States, and even in the world, and other events are 27:34 calculated to test and mature the faith of Jesus in God's 27:38 people. 27:39 And that's the point, isn't it? 27:40 That's the point. 27:41 >>DAVID: Amen. 27:43 And I love the fact that you turned faith of Jesus into an 27:44 adverb. 27:45 That was awesome. 27:46 My conversation was not very faith of Jesus-y. 27:49 I love that, I love that. 27:51 >>JAMES: And this is what we're seeing here, we're 27:52 seeing a ripening of the earth, not just the bad, which 27:55 is obvious in here, but also the good. 27:56 It's a polarizing and a ripening of two groups of 27:59 people. 28:00 >>TY: Okay, that's what I was about to say, but clarify what 28:03 you mean by the ripening of the earth and then, you did. 28:05 You said, we're not talking here about ripening, you know, 28:08 peaches and pears, we're talking about, it's a 28:10 metaphor. 28:12 The bible uses agricultural metaphor. 28:16 For example, there is a text in Paul that tells how this 28:21 maturity process happens for God's people. 28:25 >>DAVID: I'm going through the rolodex in my mind, trying to 28:26 think about Paul. 28:28 >>TY: It's Ephesians 3 where he prays, in Ephesians 3, I 28:31 think it's like verse 14 and onward, he says, I bow my 28:34 knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the 28:37 whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would 28:39 grant you to be strengthened with might by his spirit in 28:42 the inner man, there's a maturity, strengthening taking 28:45 place, that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that 28:48 you being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to 28:52 comprehend with all saints what is the length and depth 28:55 and height and something of the love of Christ that passes 28:58 knowledge, so there's the agricultural, yeah, so there's 29:01 the agricultural language. 29:02 Rooted. 29:04 So, the idea here is that a human being is like a plant, 29:11 in a sense, that has a root system that Paul is saying 29:14 needs, the roots need to reach down into the soil of God's 29:18 love and draw that love of God in Christ up into our personal 29:24 experience. 29:25 There are two ripenings that are taking place in Revelation 29:29 14, verse 14 and onward. 29:32 The wicked are ripening and the believers in Jesus are 29:36 ripening, right? 29:37 So, James was making the point that it is the ripening of two 29:43 groups of people. 29:44 >>JAMES: One's gathered to God and the other one is gathered 29:47 to the wrath, gathered to the, it says here, to the winepress 29:50 of the wrath of God. 29:53 >>DAVID: This is the very thing that Jesus articulated 29:55 profoundly in his parable in Matthew chapter 13, about hey, 29:58 there was a man that sowed good seed in his field and 30:01 other stuff came up and then people were like, hey, do you 30:04 want us to go gather up the weeds? 30:06 And he's like, no. 30:08 Wait until the harvest. 30:09 Maturity, to fruition. 30:12 >>JEFFREY: The field stays the same, so. 30:14 >>TY: What? 30:16 >>JEFFREY: That field, two things come up, sprout from 30:19 the field, right? 30:21 One is good, one is not good, but the field is the same, so, 30:23 I wonder if these two people who, these two people groups 30:27 who are ripening... 30:28 >>DAVID: Which are really two perspectives, these are people 30:30 who are embodying perspectives. 30:31 >>JEFFREY: So, maybe in response to the same thing, 30:34 the same field. 30:35 >>TY: Oh, I see what you're saying. 30:36 Oh, this is the Sermon on the Mount. 30:38 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, the gospel unfolds, and the whole world, 30:41 depending on the posture of the heart, will respond to the 30:44 gospel. 30:46 And depending on how that response is will determine, 30:50 what is that seed rooted into? 30:53 >>TY: Okay, I have two texts for that, what you're saying, 30:55 the Sermon on the Mount, the environment that God is 30:58 creating for everybody is the same. 31:00 He makes the sun shine on the righteous and the wicked, the 31:03 rain comes on the righteous and the wicked. 31:05 God's forgiveness, God's love, God's goodness, is the point, 31:09 is coming toward all, right? 31:12 But what Jeffrey's saying is that, that environment is the 31:15 same for everybody with two different ways you can respond 31:20 to the way God's treating us. 31:21 And I said I had two, what about James chapter 1? 31:25 And I said I had two, what about James chapter 1? 31:26 Every good gift comes down from the Father of lights, 31:29 with whom there is no variation or shadow of 31:30 turning. 31:31 God's goodness is a constant, a constant. 31:37 It's always toward everybody, but there are two different 31:40 ways that people respond. 31:42 >>JEFFREY: What about the illustration of the two balls, 31:44 the ball of clay, the ball of wax? 31:47 Both are put outside, subject to the sun. 31:51 The sun never changes, but the wax melts, the clay hardens. 31:56 But the sun stayed the same. 31:58 So, the gospel, God stays the same, what determines the 32:02 different reaction is the nature of the thing, right? 32:06 What has the thing become? 32:07 So, the nature of our hearts. 32:09 >>DAVID: With the smallest caveat being, I agree. 32:11 I think you were just gonna go there, that wax and clay are 32:15 physically, molecularly different. 32:19 So, that's just a product of being wax or a product of 32:21 being a clay. 32:22 With human beings, it's the choices, the decisions and the 32:26 perspectives that we voluntarily, that's the only 32:29 distinction. 32:30 >>JEFFREY: That we voluntarily make. 32:31 That will make you wax or clay. 32:33 And therefore, reacting to the same thing. 32:35 So, I, the beautiful thing is that this ripening of the 32:40 evil, of the wicked, and of those who have faith in Jesus, 32:43 flows from the everlasting gospel, that's my point is 32:47 that verses 6-11, that's the sun, the sun is the same, but 32:52 it produces two different types of harvest. 32:55 Righteousness becomes ripe and wickedness becomes ripe. 33:00 Something about the full disclosure of the gospel 33:04 ripens wickedness complete. 33:08 I don't know how that works, but. 33:11 >>JAMES: It's Romans 1. 33:12 >>TY: How? 33:13 >>JAMES: The gospel of Christ, the righteousness of God is 33:15 revealed for the wrath of God is revealed. 33:17 In the context of Revelation chapter 14, the last verse 33:21 where it says here, or the second last, the great 33:24 winepress of the wrath of God, God's wrath is consequential. 33:28 Man's wrath, you know, is vindictive. 33:30 God's wrath honors free choice, but man's wrath tries 33:34 to bind free choice. 33:36 So, when you look in Revelation 14, and it leads 33:38 us, naturally, into Revelation 15 and 16, I'm just gonna give 33:42 this as an example. 33:43 In the context of our illustrations, John chapter 3 33:49 says, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten 33:51 Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but 33:53 have everlasting life. 33:55 God didn't send his Son to condemn the world, but this is 33:59 the condemnation, that men loved darkness rather than 34:03 light. 34:04 That's the consequence. 34:05 Okay, and then, you read Revelation chapter 16, and 34:08 this is, in the context of the outpoint of the wrath of God, 34:11 which is identified as God giving us up, giving us up, 34:14 giving us up to those things which we're choosing, whether 34:16 it's sunshine, having this effect or that effect, now, 34:19 read here Revelation chapter 16, and I know I'm jumping 34:22 forward, but the context of 14 is the wrath of God and by the 34:27 way, 15 and 16 are magnifying and distilling for us what 34:32 this wrath actually looks like. 34:33 It's an unpacking. 34:35 >>TY: But what are they, for those who, in 15, 16, the 34:40 thing you're now talking about, it's called the 7 last 34:42 plagues, okay. 34:43 >>JAMES: Seven last plagues, the laws of God's wrath, 34:45 here's what it looks like, for example, and we're just gonna 34:47 look at Revelation chapter 16 and starting here in verse 8. 34:51 The fourth angel poured out, no, excuse me, verse 10, the 34:55 fifth angel poured out his vial upon the sea of the beast 34:58 and his kingdom was full of darkness. 35:01 And they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the 35:04 God of heaven because of their pains, their sores, and 35:06 repented not of their deeds. 35:08 Two points here, God is releasing people who have 35:12 chosen darkness rather than light, that's very clear in 35:14 Revelation of John 3:16, 17, 18, 19, and 20, okay? 35:19 And as he releases people, as he allows people, as he honors 35:22 choice, as CS Lewis says, as he honors choice, he says, okay, 35:26 your will be done, these people who experienced the 35:29 full consequence of their choices don't repent. 35:33 They don't change. 35:35 >>TY: That's Jeffrey's point. 35:36 >>JAMES: Which confirms that God has, actually honored 35:39 their choice. 35:40 Not that God has done something dastardly to them, 35:42 because they won't repent, but God is simply saying, even if 35:45 you're not gonna change. 35:47 >>JEFFREY: Were you granted a million years, this would 35:50 remain your posture. 35:51 >>JAMES: And what really brings this home is, many 35:53 times, God allows us to taste a little bit of the 35:56 consequence of our choices in order to bring us to 35:59 repentance. 36:00 We're like, whoa, but these people, there's no, that's why 36:02 it's called the 7 last plagues. 36:05 It's last because there's nothing else God can do, and 36:08 all through this, we find this phrase, they didn't repent, 36:11 they blasphemed God, they didn't repent, they blasphemed 36:13 God, to confirm the decision. 36:15 >>DAVID: I love that, can I throw this out? 36:17 The biblical context, we've said again and again that the 36:20 matrix in which the book of Revelation is written, the 36:24 paints from which he is painting the book is the Old 36:26 Testament, and clearly, as just even a cursory reading 36:29 will show, the backstory of the 7 last plagues is the 10 36:33 plagues that fell on Egypt. 36:34 And one of the questions that I get asked a lot as a 36:36 preacher and as a pastor and as an evangelist is, what's 36:38 this whole thing about how God hardened Pharaoh's heart? 36:41 God hardened Pharaoh's heart, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. 36:44 Here's an interesting thing. 36:45 You go back and read the story of the 10 plagues on Egypt, 36:49 and I don't remember if it's 6 or 7 times, but 6 or 7 times, 36:52 it says, Pharaoh hardened his heart. 36:54 First plague, Pharaoh hardened his heart, Pharaoh hardened 36:57 his heart. 36:57 Second plague, Pharaoh hardened his heart. 37:00 Third plague, Pharaoh hardened his heart, and it's not 'til 37:02 you get down to like the fourth or the fifth plague 37:04 that it finally says, and God hardened Pharaoh's heart. 37:06 So, this is a fascinating thing. 37:08 Pharaoh's making choices, Pharaoh's making decisions, 37:11 Pharaoh is proceeding to respond to God, whose request, 37:14 by the way, was quite reasonable. 37:16 Hey, can you just let this group of my people go? 37:18 For three days, they'll come back. 37:20 And Pharaoh's like, who is this God? 37:22 I don't know him. 37:23 So, then, God's like, okay, you're not reasonable, so 37:24 here's how we're gonna do this. 37:25 My nice, polite talking didn't work, how about this as an 37:29 initial plague. 37:30 There didn't have to be ten. 37:31 Pharaoh could've been like, okay, yeah, you're the God, I 37:34 get it, I see it. 37:35 Pharaoh hardened his heart. 37:37 Nebuchadnezzar did. 37:39 The Babylonian king, he got it. 37:42 That's a great point, I never put that together, I'm gonna 37:44 preach that. 37:45 So, the context here is that these are people that, plague 37:49 number one, they've hardened their hearts, they've hardened 37:51 their hearts, they've hardened their hearts. 37:52 So, this is not something that God is doing externally or in 37:54 a contrived and a manipulative way to them, like, you're not 37:57 allowed to repent, you're not allowed to experience mourning 38:03 over your choices. 38:05 Your heart is hard. 38:07 Not because of choices that I have made, I am now honoring 38:10 your choice. 38:11 We run a school. 38:12 A school called Arise. 38:13 Some people on the program will be familiar with that. 38:15 I remember going way, way back, probably 7 years ago, we 38:20 had to excuse a student from the school. 38:22 And I was in that meeting with a good friend of ours, Matt 38:23 Para, and I'll never forget, he said to the student, he 38:26 said, hey, listen, we're not kicking you out. 38:29 We're honoring your choice to leave. 38:31 >>JAMES: That was revolutionary for me. 38:33 The practical application. 38:35 >>DAVID: You have made choices and we're now honoring your 38:38 choices. 38:39 That's the 7 plagues. 38:40 This is not... 38:43 >>JAMES: And look at how this comes together 'cause Jeffrey 38:45 asked the question, what's the heart, in Romans chapter 1, we 38:48 have the wrath of God defined in the context of the gospel. 38:50 In Romans 2, he brings it together in 2 verses, 2 verses 38:53 brings this all together, Paul says this, verse 4, or despise 38:58 us thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance, 39:01 that's the gospel, and longsuffering, that's the 39:03 gospel, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to 39:05 repentance, his love and his goodness, and then, in verse 39:07 5, but after thy hardness and impenitent heart. 39:11 Are you treasuring up to thyself wrath against the day 39:17 of wrath and the righteous revelation? 39:18 >>JEFFREY: So, you're treasuring it up and then, at 39:19 the end, God says, this is what you've been treasuring up. 39:22 >>TY: You're full of this wrath, you've stored it up 39:26 inside you. 39:27 >>JEFFREY: You've stored it up, so okay. 39:28 >>JAMES: My goodness has tried to lead, but you've been 39:29 resisting my goodness, you've been resisting my goodness, 39:32 and so, you've been treasuring up this wrath. 39:33 >>DAVID: You've made these deposits, here's the 39:37 withdrawal. 39:38 >>JEFFREY: Can I make one quick point on that? 39:39 In the very end, in Revelation 22, which we will get soon, at 39:43 the end when Jesus comes, it says, he who is unjust, let 39:47 him be unjust still. 39:50 He who is filthy, let him be. 39:52 He who is righteous, let him be. 39:53 In my mind, I underlined and circled, let him be. 39:57 It's the same principle. 39:58 It's the same principle. 39:59 Let it be. 40:00 >>JAMES: The wages of sin is death, I'm just going by what 40:01 you said, your illustration of the withdrawal. 40:03 The wages of sin are death and we are insisting, I want my 40:05 wages. 40:06 I want my wages. 40:07 I want my wages. 40:08 Give me the money out of my bank account. 40:09 >>DAVID: It's so funny that you would say that because you 40:10 have that there in the, is it the opening of the 6th seal, 40:13 where they say, they say to the rocks, hide us from the 40:16 Lamb, hide us from the Lamb, and God is like, I don't think 40:19 you wanna be hid from the Lamb. 40:21 But, we honor your choice. 40:23 It's like, we want life without God. 40:25 To which God says, there is no such thing, but I'll honor 40:29 your choice. 40:30 >>JAMES: Hide us from life. 40:31 your choice. 40:32 >>JAMES: Hide us from life. 40:34 >>TY: This is amazing, and it fits with the Romans 2 text 40:35 that you just shared. 40:37 I wanna add one part from that Romans text. 40:39 It says that they're storing up wrath in themselves, for 40:44 the day of wrath and righteous revelation of the 40:47 righteousness of God. 40:48 So, whatever they're storing up inside of themselves, 40:52 they're storing up psychologically and 40:54 emotionally, some kind of response to the gospel. 40:58 They're storing this up, it's combustible in the presence of 41:02 the revelation. 41:04 >>JAMES: It really is. It really is. 41:06 It's heat. 41:07 Have you ever been embarrassed in public? 41:09 It's heat. 41:09 There's heat. 41:11 There's something that happens inside our psyche that causes 41:13 us to get hot and sweat and yes. 41:16 Can you imagine having everything you've ever done 41:18 put out before the entire universe? 41:22 Everything you've ever thought, everything you've 41:24 ever felt, everything. 41:24 And see, the bible says, yeah, before you. 41:28 >>JEFFREY: To enter into full realization of the true nature 41:31 of your own brokenness, I think that would snap 41:34 anybody's... 41:35 >>TY: Okay, I have to push the pause button right there, 41:37 'cause we have to take a break, but this has been 41:40 exciting. 41:41 [Music] 41:53 Announcer: Digma videos are short, engaging messages 41:56 designed for opening up discussion with individuals 41:58 and groups regarding the character of God as well as 42:02 for your own personal spiritual growth. 42:05 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos, 42:08 call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 42:13 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 42:19 Once again, for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 42:22 videos, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 42:29 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 42:35 Simply ask for Digma DVD 3. 42:38 [Music] 42:43 >>TY: So, let's summarize, James, give a summary 42:46 statement of chapters 15 and 16 and then, we'll launch into 42:49 chapter 17. 42:50 >>JAMES: So, 15 and 16 basically are fleshing out the 42:53 last verses of 14. 42:55 And they're defining the wrath of God, which clearly is God 42:58 giving us up to the things we've chosen once we come to 43:00 the place where we're not gonna repent and we're not 43:02 gonna turn away. 43:03 And God is saying, okay, I'll honor your choice, I'll honor 43:05 your choice, reluctantly, with tears, he says, I'll honor 43:08 your choice. 43:08 How can I give you up? 43:11 How can I make you, how can I, Ephraim, how can I, so this is 43:15 the heart wrenching, gut wrenching experience, the 43:18 strange act of God actually giving us over to what we've 43:20 chosen, but he has to. 43:22 Love has to honor choice. 43:24 He can't force us. 43:26 In fact, those who are not wanting to go to heaven will 43:29 be torture to them, so he honors those choices. 43:31 And all the way through 15 and 16, we see this revelation of 43:35 God, and in the middle of it, we have this battle of 43:37 Armageddon where God says, now wait a minute I want you to 43:40 understand the conflict that's taking place and I want you 43:41 to trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the faith 43:47 of Jesus. 43:48 >>TY: Okay, so that was real fast, you just mentioned the 43:50 battle of Armageddon. 43:52 >>JAMES: I just wanna mention, because we're not gonna touch 43:52 it in detail. 43:54 It's simply a continuation of the very thing, the very 43:57 conflict that we're involved in, the battle of God, the 44:00 valley of the decision, choosing God, the faith in 44:03 Jesus, the commandments of God, over the hardening of our 44:05 heart and rejecting his goodness. 44:07 >>TY: We all have a mutual friend, Pastor Dwight Nelson, 44:10 he summarizes the battle of Armageddon with this language, 44:14 he says, it's the final showdown. 44:19 And he links it to the final showdown between Elijah and 44:23 the false prophets on Mount Carmel. 44:26 The key idea with that battle of Armageddon is it's not 44:31 merely about physical bombs and explosions and tanks, it's 44:36 the battle that's going on in each person's mind and heart 44:40 regarding spiritual allegiance. 44:45 >>JAMES: Making a decision. 44:46 How long are you halting between two opinions? 44:48 If God is God, follow him, if Baal, follow him. 44:50 Make, everyone's in this valley of decision. 44:53 And that's what we see in Revelation 14. 44:55 We see a final decision made for or against God. 44:58 >>TY: Okay, so chapter 17, let's just admit something 45:01 upfront as we look at chapter 17. 45:03 It's hard. 45:04 Isn't it? 45:05 >>DAVID: As you all know, I recently preached on this and 45:07 I feel like I understand it pretty well, quite well, down 45:10 to verse 6 and then, I understand some of it. 45:15 It gets hard. 45:17 >>TY: Revelation 17 is difficult, but there are some 45:21 key concepts that aren't clear. 45:24 >>DAVID: Like, the big picture is easy. 45:26 The big picture is easy, but you know, the devil is in the 45:30 details, literally. 45:31 >>TY: So, since you preached it recently, take us through 45:34 the first few verses here and we'll comment. 45:37 >>DAVID: Okay, well, when you get to Revelation 17, we're 45:38 introduced to a new figure, a brand new figure, which is a 45:41 little bit unusual this late in the game, right? 45:43 There's only 22 chapters in Revelation, we're in 17, and 45:46 we're introduced to a new figure and it's a harlot and 45:49 her name is Babylon the Great. 45:51 So, I'll just read it, why don't I do that? 45:52 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came 45:56 and talked with me, saying to me, so there's the tie with 45:58 the angels, with the bowls, so what we see here in 17 and 46:03 even 18 is the unpacking, the further elucidating of the 46:07 outpouring of that 7th bowl. 46:09 Yeah, you comfortable with that? 46:11 >>TY: I am. 46:12 >>DAVID: Okay, so the angel comes over, talks to John and 46:14 says, come, I will show you the judgment of the great 46:15 harlot, here she is, new character. 46:17 >>TY: Again, referring to the fact that her demise is now 46:20 gonna be described. 46:21 >>DAVID: This is the description of her demise and 46:24 we've not been introduced to her up until this point, at 46:27 least not by this metaphor, this picture, this symbol. 46:31 >>TY: We heard of Babylon back in chapter 14. 46:33 >>DAVID: The idea of a harlot. 46:34 The judgment of the great harlot who sits on many 46:37 waters. 46:38 Jeffrey has already read us verse 15, I'll just do that, 46:40 in a past session. 46:42 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where 46:44 the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and 46:46 tongues. 46:47 This is a symbolic picture of this harlot, we've already 46:49 described it, a woman is a people, a church, rather, and 46:56 the waters are people, okay? 46:58 It's actually, this far into Revelation, it's not hard to 47:01 figure this out. 47:02 That's why I said it simple on one level. 47:04 Verse 3, so he carried me away in the Spirit into the 47:07 wilderness. 47:08 And I saw a woman, now watch this, sitting on a scarlet 47:11 beast, which we've already been exposed to beasts, 47:15 nations, empires, powers, full of names of blasphemy, having 47:19 seven heads and ten horns. 47:21 That's also familiar to us. 47:22 Sorry for the commentary, let me just go. 47:23 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and 47:25 adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in 47:27 her hand a golden cup full of abominations of the 47:29 filthiness of her fornication. 47:32 And on her forehead a name was written, mystery, Babylon the 47:35 great, the mother of harlots, plural, and of the 47:38 abominations of the earth. 47:39 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and 47:42 with the blood of the martyrs. 47:43 And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. 47:47 >>TY: That's heavy. 47:48 You wouldn't read this to your 3 year old, your 5 year old as 47:53 a little... 47:54 >>DAVID: Let's have a bible reading. 47:55 >>TY: Yeah. 47:56 >>JEFFREY: Bedtime story. 47:58 First of all, it's identified as the harlot. 48:00 I think that's profound because, in the Old Testament, 48:03 we've been constantly pointing back to that in the book of 48:06 Revelation, based on the Old Testament. 48:09 But in the Old Testament, the harlot is always Jerusalem 48:14 apostatized. 48:16 For example, in Ezekiel 16, you have Jerusalem's harlotry 48:19 for anybody taking notes, Ezekiel chapter 16, in verses 48:23 15 and onwards. 48:25 And so, all through the Old Testament, when God's people, 48:28 when God's church is unfaithful, she's tagged as 48:33 the harlot. 48:35 So, here in chapter 17, whatever this harlot is, we 48:37 know because of the clues we get from the Old Testament, it 48:40 has to do with the church gone bad. 48:42 >>TY: Yeah, it's a religious body. 48:43 >>JEFFREY: It's a religious entity that is not 48:46 representing... 48:47 >>TY: The truth about God. 48:48 >>DAVID: And we should say, Jeffrey, you touched on it, 48:50 there, that the backstory, if you wanna understand what's 48:53 happening in Revelation 17:1-6, go read Ezekiel 16 and 23. 48:58 That is the backstory, the language, the dress, the 49:01 behavior. 49:03 That is the backstory of Revelation 17 and 18. 49:06 How your lovers turn on you, all of that is right in 49:09 Ezekiel 16. 49:10 >>TY: Yeah, that's where he got... 49:11 >>DAVID: That's the language. 49:12 >>JEFFREY: This is heavy because the tendency for 49:16 Christians to always view the enemy from the outside, the 49:20 world is the enemy, oppressive powers are the enemy, other 49:24 entities, secular entities, but according to John's 49:28 revelation, he has very little concern with the enemies 49:32 outside, and he always brings our attention to religion, 49:35 that the issue is found in religion itself, not in the 49:40 secular world. 49:41 I think that's also profound. 49:42 >>DAVID: Well, the secular world is there in the terms of 49:44 the beast. 49:45 >>JEFFREY: It is, but if you look at the onus of the 49:47 attention and of, it's almost like obsessive. 49:50 >>TY: The point Jeffrey's making is a powerful one 49:53 because, the secular powers, the nations in this passage 49:58 are not using the woman, the woman is using, the woman is 50:03 on the back of the beast. 50:05 >>JEFFREY: Who's riding whom? 50:07 >>TY: Who's riding whom? 50:08 Who's in charge here? 50:09 >>JEFFREY: Who's driving this thing? 50:10 >>TY: That's right. 50:11 So, religion gone bad is really bad because it 50:16 professes, it claims to represent God, so it confuses 50:21 human beings regarding God. 50:24 If a nation, a secular nation is doing horrible things, it's 50:31 doing horrible things in its own name. 50:34 And there is no projection onto God, but when a religion 50:38 that bears the name of Jesus, of all things, is claiming to 50:42 represent God and simultaneously doing these 50:45 kinds of things, I think that we have a very horrific part 50:50 of history here. 50:51 And there are two, let me point this out, we said that 50:56 this is religion gone bad, but the text actually tells us how 50:59 it's gone bad. 51:01 Number one, it's through her fornication with political 51:06 powers, with nations. 51:07 She's on the back of the beast, which is a political 51:09 power, so that tells us that the combination, the union of 51:13 church and state or religion and civil power, military 51:17 power, penalties, you're gonna go to jail, you're gonna be 51:20 punished by the state because of religious matters, that's a 51:24 lethal combination, and the other thing we know about this 51:29 power is that she's drunk with blood. 51:32 So, this is a woman who is shedding blood. 51:35 This is a religious power that is using violence and force, 51:38 persecution in the name of God. 51:41 Those are at least two of the things that tell us what's so 51:45 bad about this woman that makes her a whore, a harlot, a 51:49 prostitute. 51:50 >>JAMES: And it's really sad because, in a world where the 51:53 secular has lost credibility, in a world where people are 51:57 realizing that there's no help in atheism or in government, 52:02 et cetera, the church has their foot in the door, they 52:06 have an advantage and they use that advantage to gain and 52:09 solicit credibility from the people of the world, we are a 52:14 religious organization, therefore, we are better than 52:18 all those other options that you tried and I think the 52:20 world is right for that right now. 52:22 The world is right for a religious organization to step 52:25 in and try to heal and solve the problems of the world and 52:28 everyone's looking up and saying, oh, we've tried 52:30 everything, here's the last option, here's the best option 52:34 for us, let's try this. 52:35 So, really, when you look at Revelation 17, and this is the 52:37 point I'm trying to make, the context of Revelation 17 is 52:42 one of the 7 angels that has the 7 bowls. 52:45 It's in the end of time. 52:46 Even though we're looking at the history, the cumulative 52:49 history of all of these religious systems, we're 52:51 looking at an end time power that is finally, because in 52:55 the sequence here, this woman has been riding the beast, but 52:59 has been dethroned from the beast, fallen off the beast, 53:03 but is going to ride the beast again. 53:05 So, when we look at history, we've seen it already in the 53:08 dark ages, we've seen it already in history past, that 53:10 there's a time when these two came together, everyone said, 53:12 yes, religion is our answer, and then, it was dethroned, 53:14 atheism, communism, French Revolution. 53:18 And then, there's a time when this woman is gonna be 53:20 reunited with the beast. 53:22 And again, the world, which is ripe right now, is gonna say, 53:24 yes, religion is our only last, best hope. 53:27 >>TY: The other thing that stands out to me here is that in 53:29 verse 5, she's the mother of the abominations of the earth. 53:32 That's telling us that a lot of the horrible stuff going on 53:38 in the world is the result of bad religion. 53:42 That has to be understood. 53:44 When I was in Europe one time, maybe 7 years ago, I was in 53:50 Netherlands, in Holland, and somebody said, we did a poll 53:57 here, we went up and down the streets and we had two 54:00 questions for the people over here. 54:02 Now, you have to remember the historical context. 54:04 This is western Europe where Christianity was the thing, I 54:09 mean, everyone, all these were Christian nations and now, 54:12 they're very secular nations. 54:14 So, they're walking up and down the streets and they're 54:16 saying to people, do you have an interest in church or 54:20 religion? 54:21 Eight out of ten people said, no, and were ready to walk off. 54:25 Eight out of ten people, no interest at all in church or 54:27 religion. 54:28 But they said, we have a second question, do you have 54:29 an interest in God? 54:31 And the numbers flipped. 54:33 Eight out of ten people said, well, God, sure. 54:35 I'm interested in God. 54:37 Are you interested in Jesus? 54:39 Yeah, he's a pretty interesting figure. 54:41 Are you interested in religion? 54:43 Nope. 54:45 So, that tells us that something horrible went down 54:49 in human history that caused people to back up from 54:55 religion, but, as James is saying, people are starting to 54:59 lean in with curiosity about Jesus and about God. 55:04 >>JEFFREY: The whole concept of Gandhi, you know, I'd be a 55:06 Christian if it weren't for the Christians. 55:08 >>TY: Yeah, that's heavy, that's heavy. 55:10 So, somebody summarize in the 50 seconds that remains 55:15 Revelation 17 and the verses that we've covered. 55:18 David. 55:20 >>DAVID: Well, the brief summary is that you have an 55:23 unfaithful church on the back of a beastly state, and she is 55:27 in control. 55:28 She is a persecuting power, she is an illicit and 55:31 illegitimate relations with the kings of the earth, and 55:34 ultimately, God's judgment is going to be on this system of 55:39 church and state. 55:41 >>TY: So, the conclusion of the whole matter is that there 55:45 is a lethal combination that has been experimented with in 55:49 history and that is the union of church and state and the 55:52 religion of Christ, the pure and true religion of Christ, 55:55 segregates church and state in order to allow human beings to 55:59 have the freedom to love God for who he is, not on the 56:04 premise of penalty and threat. 56:06 >>JAMES: Perfect. 56:07 [Music] 56:11 >>JAMES: Perfect. |
Revised 2018-01-16