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>>TY: It's really a privilege
to know you guys and to have
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this friendship.
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Oh, David, do you feel that?
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Do you feel that?
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>>DAVID: That was
a moment right there.
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>>TY: That was a moment.
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It's a privilege to know
you guys and to have this
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friendship, not just because
of the friendship dimension
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but I'm coming to realize that
if a friendship is centered in
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Christ, it adds a quality to
the friendship that you don't
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have if the friendship is
centered on anything else that
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a friendship
could be centered on.
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I know people who their
primary point of interest and
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contact with one another is
their job, their profession.
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For others, it's an interest
in a hobby or money, sports,
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something like that.
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There's all kinds of things
that people can connect on,
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and that people should connect
on, it's wonderful that people
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connect on all kinds of
different levels, but man,
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there is something incredible
about resonating mentally and
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emotionally and spiritually
with another human being,
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isn't there?
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Where you see what they
see, they see what you see, and
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there is this incredible thing
that sometimes we refer to as
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cross-pollinating that occurs
where what you see added to
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what I see...
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>>DAVID: That happened right
at the end of the last session
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for me, with the
things that James was saying.
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>>JEFFREY: Or the
wording, just slightly different
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wording and it just
paints a different picture.
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>>TY: Because you already
have a context in what you see,
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you've read some stuff, you've
studied, your mind has been
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open to something, so you
see something in a way that none
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of the others see something,
even if it's the same thing.
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You see it from a different
angle, yeah, and then somebody
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opens their mouth and
says, but what about this?
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And suddenly, in your context,
with your knowledge, with your
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perspective, you can see
the thing in a way that they
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didn't even see it when
they said what they said and you
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can speak back to them and
it just creates this rippling
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effect of perspective.
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We grow in fellowship with one
another and part of the genius
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of Table Talk is that it has
been encouraging other people
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to do this.
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I just keep getting people
contacting, and I know you
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guys have, too, I'll be
travelling, I'll be somewhere,
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and we're doing that, we're
doing that, in our home, in
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our church.
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We're doing our own
little Table Talk, praise God.
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Because it's not just us.
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We're just trying to share
with people what we know and
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in the process, model, hey,
you can do this, you can have
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spiritual fellowship.
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So, I just love it, I just
love doing this because I'm
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learning so much in the process.
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>>DAVID: Proverbs 27:17, as
iron sharpens iron, so a man
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sharpens the
countenance of his friend.
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I like the idea there of
friend, which is what you are
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talking about.
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I think, too, that this
requires, not that we're
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bastions of humility or of
piety, but it does require a
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certain level of humility,
a willingness to put yourself
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out and say what you
think is the case, which can be
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humbling for people, and it
can be intimidating, but then,
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maybe even more so, a
willingness to listen and to
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say, okay, alright, I
see that, versus, you know,
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somebody's here as the teacher
and we'll all sit and listen
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to what he or she
has to say, it's mutual.
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I love that.
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>>TY: Yeah, and sometimes,
it has to go a step further.
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You have to, the humility is
beyond, okay, I see that, and
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it's wow, I was wrong on that.
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I saw that in a way that is
not correct and thank you for
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explaining that because now I
see it way more clearly than I
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did before.
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>>JEFFREY: And voicing
our view is not just for the
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benefit of the listener, but
I'm finding understanding more
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of what I'm thinking,
just by having to attempt to
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articulate it.
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>>TY: Yeah, isn't that great?
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Okay, so, we're on a journey
through the New Testament book
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of Revelation.
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We're calling this series
the Revelation series and it's
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been pretty exciting so far.
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We've been just systematically
moving through the book and
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we've come to chapter 14, and
we got through, last session,
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we got through about verse 11,
yeah, verse 11, and we really
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have to pause and look at
verse 12, in particular, but
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also the remainder of the
chapter, because verse 12, let
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me see if this can, this is
not real clear in my mind, but
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I'm gonna say it this way, the
book of Revelation, as we said
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earlier, is a chiastic
structure, like a capital A,
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like a mountain, and at
the top of that mountain is the
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interpretive lens for
the whole book and that's the
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great controversy vision that
is chapters 12 through about,
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yeah, 14, to the
end of chapter 14.
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That's the great
controversy vision, okay?
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Now, here's the interesting
thing, within the scope of the
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great controversy vision,
there is a pinnacle point.
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There is a focal point.
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>>JEFFREY: There's a
chiasm within the chiasm.
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>>TY: Thank you, there's a
chiasm within the chiasm, and
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at the pinnacle of the great
controversy vision is verse 12.
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This is the real point of
the whole book of Revelation,
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verse 12.
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>>DAVID: That's a big claim.
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We should know that
that's a big, big claim, and we
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recognize that's a big claim.
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>>TY: So, let's read the verse
and see what it's all about.
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Jeffrey, verse
12, Revelation 14:12.
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>>JEFFREY: Here is the
patience of the saints.
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Here are those who keep
the commandments of God and the
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faith of Jesus.
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>>TY: Okay, so is that, does
it strike you as profound as I
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suggested that it is, or...?
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>>DAVID: Well, let me say, I
think the answer is absolutely
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yes on two levels, and
I'll just throw this out there.
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The first is, its location,
where verse 12 comes in
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relationship to everything
that we've been seeing, here's
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a brief summary, Revelation
12 is the big picture vision,
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dragon, war, heaven, that thing.
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Revelation 13, these are
the means by which the dragon
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makes his war with God's people.
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>>JEFFREY: Two beasts.
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>>DAVID: The two beasts, the
sea beast and the land beast.
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Revelation 14 is the summary
that there will be people,
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that little parenthetical
statement about those that
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were on Mount Zion that will
not capitulate, that will not
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go along, which is 1-5,
then it's like, this is the
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message, that's their
character, here's their
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content, and then it's this
statement, this encapsulated
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summary statement of the
fact that this message will
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prevail, these people will
prevail, their character, they
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will not be defiled with
woman, all of that, and it's
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like, it's shrunk down to
this summary statement that the
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dragon and the beasts will not
ultimately prevail over God's
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people or over Jesus in God's
people, so to me, yeah, it's
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just shrinked.
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>>JEFFREY: And it shows
the ground for their endurance.
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>>TY: It's like, have you
heard the saying, the oak is
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in the acorn?
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So, all the potential for
the oak tree is in this small
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little seed.
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That verse has Jesus and
his faith toward the Father, his
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faith in us.
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Jesus, in this text, is moving
all directions and Jesus is
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the center here.
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The faith of Jesus is the point.
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And the faith of Jesus is
projecting out from him to us
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and producing in us a
reciprocal faith, and that
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reciprocal faith
manifests itself in keeping the
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commandments of God, and
that constitutes the final
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testimony, in it's mature
state, before the universe,
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including the inhabitants
of earth, the inhabitants of
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heaven, remember we said,
somewhere, I can't remember
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where, we said that the
testimony was for the four
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living creatures and the 24
elders toward us and then, at
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one point, we're talking
back to them and saying, yep, we
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agree, everything that you've
realized about the Father, now
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we've realized about the Father.
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>>JAMES: It's
comparing 4 and 5 to 14.
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Revelation 4 and 5 to 14.
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>>TY: So, this is like the
final stand of the people of
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God on earth with their mature
faith that is the faith of
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Jesus.
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>>DAVID: It's a reflection
of God's faithfulness to us.
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>>JAMES: You know, I really
like this because I think that
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this verse summarizes a real
difficult issue that God has
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been dealing with throughout
the whole course of sin and
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rebellion and the issue is,
is that you have this, if you
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will, dichotomy between
the commandments of God and the
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faith of Jesus.
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And when you define the
faith of Jesus as Christ's faith
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towards us, the way that he
looks at humanity, the faith
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he's put toward us in that he
hopes all things, believes all
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things, endures all things,
dies for us, and wants to
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instill that thing in us
that the way we look at other
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people, hoping all things,
believing all things, enduring
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all things, and then, the
commandments of God, which, if
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you really define it,
yeah, it's love, but it is
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commandment keeping.
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In other words, there's
this obedience aspect and then,
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there's this love aspect,
there's the faith aspect,
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there's this hope aspect, and
they seem to be opposites, so,
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if you go back to the Old
Testament, for example, you
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have most of the Jewish people
coming down to Christ's time,
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having this real strong
emphasis on obedience, so much
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so that they don't even want
to keep Christ's body on the
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cross over the Sabbath 'cause
they wanna keep the Sabbath.
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And yet, they reject
Jesus, they don't have...
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>>DAVID: You pay tithe of mint
and anise and cumin and have
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neglected the weight of your
matters of the law, Matthew 23.
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>>JAMES: So, then, you come
to post-cross, post Calvary, and
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you come into the Christian
era, the new covenant era, the
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grace era, and you have this
really strong emphasis on the
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faith of Jesus, if you
will, on seeing and loving and
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accepting people as they are,
and in a sense, an abandonment
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of the law of God, an
abandonment of the obedience
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to the commandments of God,
as we understand them, and it
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seems like Old Testament,
there's this emphasis with an
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abandonment of Christ, in
the New Testament, there's this
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emphasis with an abandonment
of the law, but all of a
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sudden, here, in Revelation
14, you've got this group of
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people who not only keep
the commandments of God, but in
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spite of that, they don't get
self-righteous, they don't get
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hooked up on being better than
other people, they still have
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this faith of Jesus toward
every single individual, we
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talked, in this conversation,
we've talked about leaders in
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high places, we've talked
about presidents and popes and
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kings and rulers and the
bottom line in the bible is
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that we wouldn't criticize,
we wouldn't be judgmental, we
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wouldn't be sarcastic
about even the worst of men.
00:11:12.57\00:11:15.94
But we would actually pray
for them and intercede for them
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and be willing to give our
lives for them, as Paul did
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for the Jews.
00:11:20.94\00:11:22.18
>>TY: That, to me, by the way,
is a stinging correction to me.
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>>JAMES: Well,
it is to all of us.
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>>TY: Because, in this
election season, man, it's
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hard to really have a positive
attitude on some of these
00:11:29.25\00:11:33.02
politicians.
00:11:33.02\00:11:34.26
>>JAMES: But that's the faith
of Jesus, that's the ultimate
00:11:34.26\00:11:37.29
goal, that's where we're headed.
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You, all of us are headed
toward this faith of Jesus,
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the final, boom, we land
right there, the faith of Jesus,
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while, at the same
time, we continue to keep the
00:11:44.93\00:11:47.60
commandments of God.
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And it's a dichotomy, it's
a tension there that God is
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developing through
the everlasting gospel.
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>>JEFFREY: What do you think
of the word patience, here's
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the patience of the saints?
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I looked it up here and the
word actually means cheerful
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endurance.
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Here is the cheerful endurance
of the saints, the ones that
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keep the commandments of
God in the faith of Jesus.
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And you were talking
about that tension, and you were
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talking about not being
critical and judgmental and
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cynical.
00:12:15.36\00:12:16.53
I love the fact that, in
the context of this intense test
00:12:16.53\00:12:21.64
that the people of God will
face in the end, they haven't
00:12:21.64\00:12:24.64
assumed the posture of
just this negative, critical
00:12:24.64\00:12:30.01
separation from all things of
the world, but their attitude,
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their disposition
is cheerful endurance.
00:12:35.58\00:12:39.42
So, there's still this
attractiveness about them.
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I mean, nobody's attracted
to long-faced religion.
00:12:41.36\00:12:44.29
Nobody's
attracted to people who...
00:12:44.29\00:12:46.53
>>JAMES: No one's attracted
to critical, criticism, either,
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and the reason why people
are critical is because that guy
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is such a dastardly guy.
00:12:51.77\00:12:53.60
Well, why is he so dastardly?
00:12:53.60\00:12:54.70
Well, because we're such
good people, we're such law
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keepers.
00:12:55.87\00:12:57.01
We don't talk about people
like that, we don't act that
00:12:57.01\00:12:58.11
way, we don't
treat people that way...
00:12:58.11\00:13:00.14
>>JEFFREY: You're talking
about being self-righteous.
00:13:00.14\00:13:01.48
>>JAMES: Yeah, a lot of people
are attracted to these kind of
00:13:01.48\00:13:04.05
people because they're
just the same, they're the same,
00:13:04.05\00:13:05.38
and so they're
supportive and right.
00:13:05.38\00:13:07.35
>>JEFFREY: But these guys
have assumed a different, I love
00:13:07.35\00:13:09.75
that, cheerful endurance.
00:13:09.75\00:13:11.75
>>TY: On that word endurance
or patience, that word is
00:13:11.75\00:13:16.29
occurring again in a context.
00:13:16.29\00:13:19.13
So, if you're enduring, for
example, if you're enduring in
00:13:19.13\00:13:23.47
an athletic endeavor,
running, riding a bike, rowing,
00:13:23.47\00:13:29.77
something like that, it
assumes that there's a thing
00:13:29.77\00:13:34.44
that you're enduring in, and
the context here is the third
00:13:34.44\00:13:41.02
angel's message, second
angel's message, first angel's
00:13:41.02\00:13:43.45
message, they're enduring
in the everlasting gospel,
00:13:43.45\00:13:47.89
they're enduring in love when
love is being drained out of
00:13:47.89\00:13:50.99
the world.
00:13:50.99\00:13:52.16
>>DAVID: That's the whole
thing you showed us yesterday
00:13:52.16\00:13:53.86
that Dr. Bishof
showed you about Matthew 24.
00:13:53.86\00:13:55.66
Love is going down, but love
keeps, yeah, that was amazing.
00:13:55.66\00:14:00.74
>>JAMES: It fits right in here.
00:14:00.74\00:14:02.60
It has to.
00:14:02.60\00:14:03.77
>>TY: But back on the thing
that you were talking about,
00:14:03.77\00:14:05.84
James, of this tension
between, I guess, faith and
00:14:05.84\00:14:10.78
works, the faith of Jesus
and the commandments of God, I
00:14:10.78\00:14:15.82
think this is brilliant,
because there has been, down
00:14:15.82\00:14:20.86
through Christian history,
and if you take in, as you were
00:14:20.86\00:14:25.19
saying, Jewish history,
the history of Israel, human
00:14:25.19\00:14:29.13
beings tend to run
to extremes, right?
00:14:29.13\00:14:32.30
We tend to be imbalanced
and that's a part of our
00:14:32.30\00:14:35.50
dysfunction as human beings,
where we tend to emphasize
00:14:35.50\00:14:39.57
obedience and law and justice
to the exclusion or minimizing
00:14:39.57\00:14:43.14
of mercy, forgiveness, and
that kind of, that side, or we
00:14:43.14\00:14:46.65
tend to eclipse obedience
and the law and justice in favor
00:14:46.65\00:14:52.49
of mercy.
00:14:52.49\00:14:53.72
But what this is describing is
a people in whom there is this
00:14:53.72\00:14:57.16
kind of equilibrium, this
balance between these two.
00:14:57.16\00:15:02.03
So, they're not rejecting
the law in favor of faith and
00:15:02.03\00:15:06.60
they're not rejecting faith
in favor of the law, in fact, I
00:15:06.60\00:15:11.11
think it would be
accurate to say that there is no
00:15:11.11\00:15:14.54
separation between
faith and law, is there?
00:15:14.54\00:15:17.65
They are a synergistic hold.
00:15:17.65\00:15:19.41
>>DAVID: And that's what I
appreciate about James is your
00:15:19.41\00:15:22.95
summary because you were not
saying that there is an actual
00:15:22.95\00:15:25.62
demarcation or division or
polarity between the two, but
00:15:25.62\00:15:29.69
that it's perceived that way.
00:15:29.69\00:15:31.26
So, I think
you're exactly correct.
00:15:31.26\00:15:34.10
This is something that the
human being brings in his or
00:15:34.10\00:15:37.13
her perception to the
perceived contrast between
00:15:37.13\00:15:41.87
faith and works and love and
law, but and you see in Jesus.
00:15:41.87\00:15:48.68
Okay, so, Jesus, of course,
they have the faith of Jesus.
00:15:48.68\00:15:51.75
Jesus is the perfect
embodiment of a supreme love
00:15:51.75\00:15:54.52
for mankind, that horizontal
affection and kindness and
00:15:54.52\00:15:58.15
magnanimity that flowed out
from him, but he was perfectly
00:15:58.15\00:16:02.66
in harmony and in connection
with his heavenly Father.
00:16:02.66\00:16:05.63
There's no, you couldn't point
to the seam and be like, okay,
00:16:05.63\00:16:08.26
well, here's where Jesus's
faith stops, and here's where
00:16:08.26\00:16:11.23
the obedience starts.
00:16:11.23\00:16:12.93
They're one and the
same, is that your point?
00:16:12.93\00:16:15.04
>>TY: Yeah, that's the point.
00:16:15.04\00:16:16.04
>>JEFFREY: Is that
implicit in the text?
00:16:16.04\00:16:18.04
Here's the patience of the
saints, that's the patience,
00:16:18.04\00:16:22.44
and then the remainder of the
verse is just describing what
00:16:22.44\00:16:26.88
endurance actually is.
00:16:26.88\00:16:28.68
And in that description, both
things are in the description.
00:16:28.68\00:16:32.25
In other words, if one of
the two commandments of God, or
00:16:32.25\00:16:35.29
the faith of Jesus, is
missing, then that no longer
00:16:35.29\00:16:37.89
qualifies as true endurance.
00:16:37.89\00:16:39.56
>>TY: Yeah, you
don't have the thing.
00:16:39.56\00:16:41.53
>>JEFFREY: Right, so I
think that's in the text, it's
00:16:41.53\00:16:43.53
actually right there.
00:16:43.53\00:16:44.93
>>JAMES: I wanna say something
interesting here that just
00:16:44.93\00:16:46.10
came to my mind, but I'm
thinking about Ezekiel 28,
00:16:46.10\00:16:48.04
where it describes Satan,
Lucifer, before the fall, his
00:16:48.04\00:16:51.74
pipes were prepared within
him, and it came to my mind
00:16:51.74\00:16:54.61
this illustration of for
example, in heaven, of course,
00:16:54.61\00:16:57.45
harps, but a guitar,
guitar strings have to be tuned
00:16:57.45\00:17:01.02
perfectly in order to make the
sound, in order to bring forth
00:17:01.02\00:17:04.45
the sound that we
all know is correct.
00:17:04.45\00:17:08.72
And in order to get a string
tuned perfectly, you can't
00:17:08.72\00:17:12.43
have it too tight and
you can't have it too loose.
00:17:12.43\00:17:15.36
So, when we look at these
extremes, the tightness and
00:17:15.36\00:17:18.20
the looseness is the one
extreme or the other, and as
00:17:18.20\00:17:20.77
we get too extreme to the
love or sentimentalism or too
00:17:20.77\00:17:23.81
extreme to the legalism,
and you know, obedience as
00:17:23.81\00:17:26.91
divorcing from love, we
have the sound isn't right.
00:17:26.91\00:17:31.28
>>JEFFREY: We're out of tune.
00:17:31.28\00:17:32.48
>>JAMES: We're out of tune
and God wants to bring the world
00:17:32.48\00:17:34.62
back into tune, he wants to
bring us back into harmony, he
00:17:34.62\00:17:37.15
wants the music that we, that
comes forth from us to be in
00:17:37.15\00:17:40.62
perfect illustration, a
revelation of his heart, of
00:17:40.62\00:17:44.19
his love, of
the music of heaven.
00:17:44.19\00:17:46.29
>>TY: I think a good way to
say what we're trying to get
00:17:46.29\00:17:49.96
at is that the bible doesn't
teach faith and works, the
00:17:49.96\00:17:55.94
bible teaches faith
that works, in Galatians.
00:17:55.94\00:17:59.04
It's a continuum.
00:17:59.04\00:18:01.21
It's one thing, you can't have
one without the other, that's
00:18:01.21\00:18:04.01
the book of James, right?
00:18:04.01\00:18:05.21
If you say you have faith,
but you don't have works, well,
00:18:05.21\00:18:07.52
there's a
problem with your faith.
00:18:07.52\00:18:10.62
Your faith isn't even faith.
00:18:10.62\00:18:12.52
I mean, you think
it's faith, but...
00:18:12.52\00:18:14.22
>>JAMES: He says
it's the faith of devils.
00:18:14.22\00:18:15.56
>>TY: Yeah, it's not the real
deal, it's not the real thing.
00:18:15.56\00:18:18.59
Some people, a lot in
Christianity, there's a lot of
00:18:18.59\00:18:22.63
talk, sometimes, about the
law of God being nailed to the
00:18:22.63\00:18:27.07
cross and done away with
and abolished and that kind of
00:18:27.07\00:18:29.57
language that the law of
the Old Testament, we don't need
00:18:29.57\00:18:32.07
that, we don't
need the law anymore.
00:18:32.07\00:18:34.58
The technical word for that
is antinomianism, or anti-law,
00:18:34.58\00:18:38.91
but if you take the definition
of Jesus and Paul and the
00:18:38.91\00:18:42.82
whole of the bible, in
fact, that the law is love, that
00:18:42.82\00:18:46.59
really, it's love for human
beings and love for God, who
00:18:46.59\00:18:52.36
would really want to translate
that's, love is abolished,
00:18:52.36\00:18:57.10
love is done away with, there
is no more love, we don't need
00:18:57.10\00:18:59.33
love.
00:18:59.33\00:19:00.97
Well, okay, if you don't
need love, what do you need?
00:19:00.97\00:19:03.30
>>JAMES: Ty, another take on
that, this is just a thought,
00:19:03.30\00:19:05.71
just to throw it at you, just
for you to consider, Jesus was
00:19:05.71\00:19:08.91
the embodiment of the law
and he was nailed to the cross.
00:19:08.91\00:19:12.58
And the cross is the thing
that Christians exalt and so,
00:19:12.58\00:19:16.99
when we look at the law
being nailed to the cross from a
00:19:16.99\00:19:19.42
different perspective,
we're looking at the cross being
00:19:19.42\00:19:21.92
exalted, and therefore,
the law being exalted, and what
00:19:21.92\00:19:23.83
I'm saying is, is that
when Christ came and died on the
00:19:23.83\00:19:26.26
cross, he exalted the law.
00:19:26.26\00:19:28.13
He exalted it and therefore,
when we see Christ on the
00:19:28.13\00:19:31.97
cross, we see the embodiment
of the law being sacrificed in
00:19:31.97\00:19:35.57
the context of his
forgiveness, his sacrifice for
00:19:35.57\00:19:38.51
our sins, but not being
done away with, being lifted up,
00:19:38.51\00:19:41.18
being exalted, just
like the cross is exalted.
00:19:41.18\00:19:43.51
>>DAVID: It magnifies the law.
00:19:43.51\00:19:44.71
>>TY: Yeah, okay, we have to
take a break, but we spent our
00:19:44.71\00:19:49.02
whole first second on that
verse which was fine because
00:19:49.02\00:19:51.59
that verse is powerful, who
knows, maybe we'll come back
00:19:51.59\00:19:54.99
to it.
00:19:54.99\00:19:56.79
to it.
00:19:56.79\00:19:57.83
>>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson,
welcome to digma.com.
00:20:08.87\00:20:11.61
I am so excited about this
website because you're about
00:20:11.61\00:20:14.88
to discover a powerful new
way to share life transforming
00:20:14.88\00:20:18.85
messages and videos with your
family, friends, and anybody
00:20:18.85\00:20:22.52
else on the planet who
has access to a computer.
00:20:22.52\00:20:26.32
Digma is a Greek word.
00:20:26.32\00:20:27.82
It basically means, to show
or to reveal something by means
00:20:27.82\00:20:31.83
of a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:20:31.83\00:20:34.63
It's the second half of the
word paradigma, from which we
00:20:34.63\00:20:38.27
get the English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:20:38.27\00:20:43.07
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:20:43.07\00:20:46.07
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:20:46.07\00:20:49.61
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:20:49.61\00:20:52.78
What's the meaning of life?
00:20:52.78\00:20:53.88
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:20:53.88\00:20:58.55
What happens when we die?
00:20:58.55\00:21:00.86
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:21:00.86\00:21:05.26
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:21:05.26\00:21:09.30
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:21:09.30\00:21:14.17
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email,
00:21:14.17\00:21:18.14
and more than 400 million
people are active on Facebook,
00:21:18.14\00:21:22.61
and 5 million new users
are signing up every week.
00:21:22.61\00:21:27.62
We are literally in the midst
of a communications revolution
00:21:27.62\00:21:32.25
of massive proportion.
00:21:32.25\00:21:34.39
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:21:34.39\00:21:38.99
millions upon millions of
homes and hearts, and that's
00:21:38.99\00:21:44.60
what digma.com is all about.
00:21:44.60\00:21:47.14
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:21:47.14\00:21:50.81
exciting paradigm shift by
revealing the truth of God's
00:21:50.81\00:21:54.88
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:21:54.88\00:21:58.61
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about
00:21:58.61\00:22:04.72
who God is.
00:22:04.72\00:22:06.82
who God is.
00:22:06.82\00:22:07.99
>>TY: So, we were just looking
at what might be considered
00:22:23.17\00:22:26.24
the key verse in Revelation
chapter 14 and verse 12 is
00:22:26.24\00:22:30.85
that key verse.
00:22:30.85\00:22:32.05
I wanna make one more point
and see what you guys think of
00:22:32.05\00:22:34.12
this.
00:22:34.12\00:22:35.25
Notice that the language
is that these individuals who
00:22:35.25\00:22:38.05
endure and keep the
commandments of God have the
00:22:38.05\00:22:40.12
faith of Jesus.
00:22:40.12\00:22:41.39
This is not, we need to
distinguish here, this text is
00:22:41.39\00:22:45.99
not talking about faith
in Jesus, this text is not
00:22:45.99\00:22:49.63
saying, is not talking about
you having faith in him, it's
00:22:49.63\00:22:54.97
talking about us
having his very faith.
00:22:54.97\00:22:58.64
So, it's describing, I think...
00:22:58.64\00:23:01.34
>>JEFFREY: His
faith that we possess.
00:23:01.34\00:23:03.35
>>TY: Yes.
00:23:03.35\00:23:04.45
Jesus had a particular
quality, kind, whatever, type
00:23:04.45\00:23:06.48
of faith, in his relationship
with the Father and his
00:23:06.48\00:23:09.88
relationship with human beings.
00:23:09.88\00:23:11.09
He related in a certain
way to God and to humans.
00:23:11.09\00:23:13.89
The way Jesus relates to
God and human beings is now
00:23:13.89\00:23:18.76
reproduced in these people.
00:23:18.76\00:23:20.46
That's what's
being said, I think.
00:23:20.46\00:23:22.43
>>DAVID: I agree, totally.
00:23:22.43\00:23:24.27
>>TY: So, that would include,
then, faith in Jesus right,
00:23:24.27\00:23:28.17
because it would
become reciprocal.
00:23:28.17\00:23:31.34
His faith in us is the basis.
00:23:31.34\00:23:35.21
So, let me see
if this makes sense.
00:23:35.21\00:23:37.45
Our whole faith toward him
is based on his faith toward us.
00:23:37.45\00:23:44.85
So, his faithfulness...
00:23:44.85\00:23:46.86
>>DAVID: If you just
substitute the word love, the
00:23:46.86\00:23:48.66
same thing holds true, the
same principle that you just
00:23:48.66\00:23:51.46
articulated, the same formula
that you just articulated
00:23:51.46\00:23:54.03
holds true if you say love.
00:23:54.03\00:23:55.80
Our love to God is
a reflection, a mirror
00:23:55.80\00:23:59.17
reflection, you could
say, of his love toward us.
00:23:59.17\00:24:03.20
His loyalty, our loyalty
and allegiance to him is a mere
00:24:03.20\00:24:07.18
reflection of his
loyalty and allegiance to us.
00:24:07.18\00:24:09.94
>>JEFFREY: The bible says that
clearly in 1 John, is it 3, we
00:24:09.94\00:24:12.75
love him because
he first loved us.
00:24:12.75\00:24:14.68
>>DAVID: A lot of people
draw the line, and I think Ty's
00:24:14.68\00:24:16.69
point is a great point, a
lot of people draw the line at
00:24:16.69\00:24:18.79
faith.
00:24:18.79\00:24:19.95
Love is the thing that God
does, yeah, our love reflects
00:24:19.95\00:24:21.39
his, loyalty, our loyalty
reflects his, but that is also
00:24:21.39\00:24:24.53
true for faith, it is also
true that our, James, you made
00:24:24.53\00:24:28.20
the point earlier that love
believes all things and hopes
00:24:28.20\00:24:31.27
all things and
endures all things.
00:24:31.27\00:24:32.77
So, if God is love and love
believes all things, who's the
00:24:32.77\00:24:35.64
greatest believer?
00:24:35.64\00:24:37.57
This is the way I've been
saying, I love this, too, this
00:24:37.57\00:24:39.87
is the way I've been saying
it in my preaching lately, that
00:24:39.87\00:24:41.74
the big story is not our love
for God, it's God's love for us.
00:24:41.74\00:24:46.48
And the big story is not our
faith in God, it's God's faith
00:24:46.48\00:24:48.68
and belief that we can
be more than just sinners.
00:24:48.68\00:24:53.36
And he injects that into
us and everybody at this table
00:24:53.36\00:24:55.82
knows the power
of words like this.
00:24:55.82\00:24:59.16
James, you can do it.
00:24:59.16\00:25:01.00
I believe in you, Jeffrey.
00:25:01.00\00:25:02.46
Ty, you're the
right man for the job.
00:25:02.46\00:25:04.47
When somebody else expresses
confidence, hope, belief in
00:25:04.47\00:25:08.20
you, it buoys you up.
00:25:08.20\00:25:09.84
What, you?
00:25:09.84\00:25:10.84
You believe in me?
00:25:10.84\00:25:11.91
It's not just a mutual
thing where we believe in one
00:25:11.91\00:25:15.64
another.
00:25:15.64\00:25:16.64
We're equals.
00:25:16.64\00:25:17.71
God believes in us
because he sees the potential.
00:25:17.71\00:25:19.65
We're made in his image
and when he fills us with his
00:25:19.65\00:25:21.65
spirit, we can rise to a
level that our little miniscule,
00:25:21.65\00:25:25.45
non-existent, mediocre
faith could never attain.
00:25:25.45\00:25:27.82
>>JEFFREY: So, faith is the
substance of things hoped for,
00:25:27.82\00:25:29.82
the evidence of things not seen.
00:25:29.82\00:25:31.86
So, God is seeing
something in you...
00:25:31.86\00:25:33.86
>>DAVID: A hundred percent.
00:25:33.86\00:25:34.83
Go and sin no more.
00:25:34.83\00:25:36.00
Jesus says to the woman caught
in adultery, go and sin no
00:25:36.00\00:25:37.93
more.
00:25:37.93\00:25:39.00
We often read that as a
command, hey, you better not
00:25:39.00\00:25:40.94
sin any more.
00:25:40.94\00:25:42.07
No, Jesus sees a future
for her that she can't see for
00:25:42.07\00:25:44.11
herself.
00:25:44.11\00:25:45.24
>>TY: And could you add to
that that he has shown faith
00:25:45.24\00:25:48.54
in us because he knows the
power of his love to do all
00:25:48.54\00:25:52.95
that in us?
00:25:52.95\00:25:53.95
You know what I mean?
00:25:53.95\00:25:55.08
>>DAVID: Faith, love, hope.
00:25:55.08\00:25:56.28
>>JAMES: And therefore, the
operative word in this verse,
00:25:56.28\00:25:58.72
the key word in
this verse is keep.
00:25:58.72\00:26:01.99
the key word in
this verse is keep.
00:26:01.99\00:26:03.06
Here are they that keep.
00:26:03.06\00:26:04.83
Here are they that keep.
00:26:04.83\00:26:05.29
>>DAVID: Retain, hold.
00:26:05.39\00:26:07.23
>>JAMES: Could
you keep this for me?
00:26:07.23\00:26:08.60
>>JAMES: Could
you keep this for me?
00:26:08.66\00:26:08.80
I'm gonna give you this
faith, I'm gonna give you these
00:26:09.80\00:26:11.23
commandments.
00:26:11.23\00:26:13.44
In other words, the operative
word is keep because what
00:26:13.44\00:26:15.34
these guys are doing
is they're not producing
00:26:15.34\00:26:17.27
something in themselves.
00:26:17.27\00:26:19.47
>>TY: I see your point now.
00:26:19.47\00:26:21.41
>>JAMES: They're
keeping what God is giving them.
00:26:21.41\00:26:22.54
>>JEFFREY: Ty is
like, what, what, what?
00:26:22.54\00:26:24.41
>>TY: I was like heresy,
and then, I was like, oh, yeah.
00:26:24.41\00:26:27.12
>>JAMES: Jesus is giving us
his faith and he's giving us
00:26:27.12\00:26:29.25
his love and
he's saying, keep it.
00:26:29.25\00:26:31.29
>>DAVID: Good illustration.
00:26:31.29\00:26:32.35
Keep the Sabbath holy.
00:26:32.35\00:26:35.06
Keep the Sabbath holy.
00:26:35.06\00:26:35.49
The Sabbath is holy.
00:26:35.59\00:26:37.73
Keep it that way.
00:26:37.73\00:26:38.89
Keep it that way.
00:26:39.16\00:26:39.19
Here's my faith, keep that.
00:26:39.83\00:26:41.70
You like that?
00:26:41.70\00:26:42.83
>>TY: So, we have to hurry
now, because Jeffrey had so
00:26:42.83\00:26:45.77
much to say about that.
00:26:45.77\00:26:46.50
>>DAVID: I hate hurrying.
00:26:46.50\00:26:47.50
>>TY: So do I.
00:26:47.50\00:26:48.90
So, let's just be cas about
this, but I think there's a
00:26:48.90\00:26:52.21
connection between what's
happening in verse 12 and the
00:26:52.21\00:26:56.61
ripening and the harvesting
of the earth that follows in the
00:26:56.61\00:26:59.68
remaining verses.
00:26:59.68\00:27:01.02
>>JAMES: So
much, so connected, Ty.
00:27:01.02\00:27:02.42
Look at this, look, we
just talked about this, we just
00:27:02.42\00:27:04.92
talked about the fact that we
start magnifying, for example,
00:27:04.92\00:27:08.69
the faith of Jesus, we go,
wow, my conversation the last
00:27:08.69\00:27:12.16
few days hasn't been
very faith of Jesus-y.
00:27:12.16\00:27:14.93
I've struggled a little bit
with people and characters and
00:27:14.93\00:27:19.30
I need to endure and have
patience through this next
00:27:19.30\00:27:21.67
election to make the faith
of Jesus a reality in my life.
00:27:21.67\00:27:25.67
It's true, though.
00:27:25.67\00:27:26.91
I mean, if you think about it,
the political scenario in the
00:27:26.91\00:27:31.05
United States, and even in
the world, and other events are
00:27:31.05\00:27:34.95
calculated to test and mature
the faith of Jesus in God's
00:27:34.95\00:27:38.85
people.
00:27:38.85\00:27:39.85
And that's the point, isn't it?
00:27:39.85\00:27:40.86
That's the point.
00:27:40.86\00:27:41.86
>>DAVID: Amen.
00:27:41.86\00:27:43.22
And I love the fact that you
turned faith of Jesus into an
00:27:43.22\00:27:44.29
adverb.
00:27:44.29\00:27:45.53
That was awesome.
00:27:45.53\00:27:46.53
My conversation was
not very faith of Jesus-y.
00:27:46.53\00:27:49.43
I love that, I love that.
00:27:49.43\00:27:51.07
>>JAMES: And this is
what we're seeing here, we're
00:27:51.07\00:27:52.33
seeing a ripening of the
earth, not just the bad, which
00:27:52.33\00:27:55.17
is obvious in
here, but also the good.
00:27:55.17\00:27:56.77
It's a polarizing and a
ripening of two groups of
00:27:56.77\00:27:59.51
people.
00:27:59.51\00:28:00.81
>>TY: Okay, that's what I was
about to say, but clarify what
00:28:00.81\00:28:03.95
you mean by the ripening of
the earth and then, you did.
00:28:03.95\00:28:05.55
You said, we're not talking
here about ripening, you know,
00:28:05.55\00:28:08.15
peaches and pears,
we're talking about, it's a
00:28:08.15\00:28:10.82
metaphor.
00:28:10.82\00:28:12.79
The bible uses
agricultural metaphor.
00:28:12.79\00:28:16.52
For example, there is a
text in Paul that tells how this
00:28:16.52\00:28:21.83
maturity process
happens for God's people.
00:28:21.83\00:28:25.20
>>DAVID: I'm going through the
rolodex in my mind, trying to
00:28:25.20\00:28:26.90
think about Paul.
00:28:26.90\00:28:28.07
>>TY: It's Ephesians 3 where
he prays, in Ephesians 3, I
00:28:28.07\00:28:31.81
think it's like verse 14
and onward, he says, I bow my
00:28:31.81\00:28:34.38
knees to the Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the
00:28:34.38\00:28:37.05
whole family in heaven and
earth is named, that he would
00:28:37.05\00:28:39.55
grant you to be strengthened
with might by his spirit in
00:28:39.55\00:28:42.48
the inner man, there's a
maturity, strengthening taking
00:28:42.48\00:28:45.12
place, that Christ may dwell
in your hearts by faith, that
00:28:45.12\00:28:48.46
you being rooted and
grounded in love, may be able to
00:28:48.46\00:28:52.36
comprehend with all saints
what is the length and depth
00:28:52.36\00:28:55.63
and height and something of
the love of Christ that passes
00:28:55.63\00:28:58.63
knowledge, so there's the
agricultural, yeah, so there's
00:28:58.63\00:29:01.24
the agricultural language.
00:29:01.24\00:29:02.84
Rooted.
00:29:02.84\00:29:04.01
So, the idea here is that a
human being is like a plant,
00:29:04.01\00:29:11.65
in a sense, that has a
root system that Paul is saying
00:29:11.65\00:29:14.15
needs, the roots need to reach
down into the soil of God's
00:29:14.15\00:29:18.42
love and draw that love of God
in Christ up into our personal
00:29:18.42\00:29:24.16
experience.
00:29:24.16\00:29:25.36
There are two ripenings that
are taking place in Revelation
00:29:25.36\00:29:29.80
14, verse 14 and onward.
00:29:29.80\00:29:32.03
The wicked are ripening
and the believers in Jesus are
00:29:32.03\00:29:36.67
ripening, right?
00:29:36.67\00:29:37.91
So, James was making the point
that it is the ripening of two
00:29:37.91\00:29:43.18
groups of people.
00:29:43.18\00:29:44.85
>>JAMES: One's gathered to God
and the other one is gathered
00:29:44.85\00:29:47.65
to the wrath, gathered to the,
it says here, to the winepress
00:29:47.65\00:29:50.72
of the wrath of God.
00:29:50.72\00:29:53.39
>>DAVID: This is the very
thing that Jesus articulated
00:29:53.39\00:29:55.02
profoundly in his parable in
Matthew chapter 13, about hey,
00:29:55.02\00:29:58.53
there was a man that
sowed good seed in his field and
00:29:58.53\00:30:01.73
other stuff came up and then
people were like, hey, do you
00:30:01.73\00:30:04.00
want us to go
gather up the weeds?
00:30:04.00\00:30:06.47
And he's like, no.
00:30:06.47\00:30:07.34
Wait until the harvest.
00:30:08.00\00:30:09.60
Maturity, to fruition.
00:30:09.60\00:30:12.17
>>JEFFREY: The
field stays the same, so.
00:30:12.17\00:30:14.84
>>TY: What?
00:30:14.84\00:30:16.54
>>JEFFREY: That field, two
things come up, sprout from
00:30:16.54\00:30:19.81
the field, right?
00:30:19.81\00:30:21.05
One is good, one is not good,
but the field is the same, so,
00:30:21.05\00:30:23.22
I wonder if these two people
who, these two people groups
00:30:23.22\00:30:27.12
who are ripening...
00:30:27.12\00:30:28.72
>>DAVID: Which are really two
perspectives, these are people
00:30:28.72\00:30:30.23
who are embodying perspectives.
00:30:30.23\00:30:31.29
>>JEFFREY: So, maybe in
response to the same thing,
00:30:31.29\00:30:34.00
the same field.
00:30:34.00\00:30:35.30
>>TY: Oh, I see
what you're saying.
00:30:35.30\00:30:36.43
Oh, this is the
Sermon on the Mount.
00:30:36.43\00:30:38.67
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, the gospel
unfolds, and the whole world,
00:30:38.67\00:30:41.14
depending on the posture of
the heart, will respond to the
00:30:41.14\00:30:44.94
gospel.
00:30:44.94\00:30:46.47
And depending on how that
response is will determine,
00:30:46.47\00:30:50.65
what is that seed rooted into?
00:30:50.65\00:30:53.15
>>TY: Okay, I have two texts
for that, what you're saying,
00:30:53.15\00:30:55.25
the Sermon on the Mount,
the environment that God is
00:30:55.25\00:30:58.69
creating for
everybody is the same.
00:30:58.69\00:31:00.56
He makes the sun shine on the
righteous and the wicked, the
00:31:00.56\00:31:03.12
rain comes on the
righteous and the wicked.
00:31:03.12\00:31:05.29
God's forgiveness, God's love,
God's goodness, is the point,
00:31:05.29\00:31:09.60
is coming toward all, right?
00:31:09.60\00:31:12.90
But what Jeffrey's saying is
that, that environment is the
00:31:12.90\00:31:15.97
same for everybody with two
different ways you can respond
00:31:15.97\00:31:20.04
to the way God's treating us.
00:31:20.04\00:31:21.61
And I said I had two,
what about James chapter 1?
00:31:21.61\00:31:25.28
And I said I had two,
what about James chapter 1?
00:31:25.28\00:31:26.31
Every good gift comes
down from the Father of lights,
00:31:26.41\00:31:29.12
with whom there is no
variation or shadow of
00:31:29.12\00:31:30.99
turning.
00:31:30.99\00:31:31.92
God's goodness is a
constant, a constant.
00:31:31.92\00:31:37.53
It's always toward everybody,
but there are two different
00:31:37.53\00:31:40.86
ways that people respond.
00:31:40.86\00:31:42.60
>>JEFFREY: What about the
illustration of the two balls,
00:31:42.60\00:31:44.47
the ball of
clay, the ball of wax?
00:31:44.47\00:31:47.30
Both are put
outside, subject to the sun.
00:31:47.30\00:31:51.04
The sun never changes, but
the wax melts, the clay hardens.
00:31:51.04\00:31:56.85
But the sun stayed the same.
00:31:56.85\00:31:58.11
So, the gospel, God stays
the same, what determines the
00:31:58.11\00:32:02.28
different reaction is the
nature of the thing, right?
00:32:02.28\00:32:06.52
What has the thing become?
00:32:06.52\00:32:07.59
So, the nature of our hearts.
00:32:07.59\00:32:09.16
>>DAVID: With the
smallest caveat being, I agree.
00:32:09.16\00:32:11.66
I think you were just gonna
go there, that wax and clay are
00:32:11.66\00:32:15.70
physically,
molecularly different.
00:32:15.70\00:32:19.23
So, that's just a product
of being wax or a product of
00:32:19.23\00:32:21.37
being a clay.
00:32:21.37\00:32:22.57
With human beings, it's the
choices, the decisions and the
00:32:22.57\00:32:26.81
perspectives that we
voluntarily, that's the only
00:32:26.81\00:32:29.78
distinction.
00:32:29.78\00:32:30.61
>>JEFFREY: That
we voluntarily make.
00:32:30.61\00:32:31.65
That will make you wax or clay.
00:32:31.65\00:32:33.35
And therefore,
reacting to the same thing.
00:32:33.35\00:32:35.92
So, I, the beautiful thing
is that this ripening of the
00:32:35.92\00:32:40.26
evil, of the wicked, and of
those who have faith in Jesus,
00:32:40.26\00:32:43.89
flows from the everlasting
gospel, that's my point is
00:32:43.89\00:32:47.23
that verses 6-11, that's the
sun, the sun is the same, but
00:32:47.23\00:32:52.40
it produces two
different types of harvest.
00:32:52.40\00:32:55.17
Righteousness becomes ripe
and wickedness becomes ripe.
00:32:55.17\00:33:00.58
Something about the
full disclosure of the gospel
00:33:00.58\00:33:04.51
ripens wickedness complete.
00:33:04.51\00:33:08.35
I don't know
how that works, but.
00:33:08.35\00:33:11.42
>>JAMES: It's Romans 1.
00:33:11.42\00:33:12.69
>>TY: How?
00:33:12.69\00:33:13.89
>>JAMES: The gospel of Christ,
the righteousness of God is
00:33:13.89\00:33:15.49
revealed for the
wrath of God is revealed.
00:33:15.49\00:33:17.76
In the context of Revelation
chapter 14, the last verse
00:33:17.76\00:33:21.53
where it says here, or
the second last, the great
00:33:21.53\00:33:24.93
winepress of the wrath of God,
God's wrath is consequential.
00:33:24.93\00:33:28.27
Man's wrath, you
know, is vindictive.
00:33:28.27\00:33:30.71
God's wrath honors free
choice, but man's wrath tries
00:33:30.71\00:33:34.04
to bind free choice.
00:33:34.04\00:33:36.64
So, when you look in
Revelation 14, and it leads
00:33:36.64\00:33:38.71
us, naturally, into Revelation
15 and 16, I'm just gonna give
00:33:38.71\00:33:42.08
this as an example.
00:33:42.08\00:33:43.59
In the context of our
illustrations, John chapter 3
00:33:43.59\00:33:49.09
says, God so loved the world
that he gave his only begotten
00:33:49.09\00:33:51.66
Son, that whoever believes
in him should not perish, but
00:33:51.66\00:33:53.86
have everlasting life.
00:33:53.86\00:33:55.23
God didn't send his Son to
condemn the world, but this is
00:33:55.23\00:33:59.33
the condemnation, that
men loved darkness rather than
00:33:59.33\00:34:03.47
light.
00:34:03.47\00:34:04.31
That's the consequence.
00:34:04.31\00:34:05.91
Okay, and then, you read
Revelation chapter 16, and
00:34:05.91\00:34:08.34
this is, in the context of the
outpoint of the wrath of God,
00:34:08.34\00:34:11.88
which is identified as God
giving us up, giving us up,
00:34:11.88\00:34:14.05
giving us up to those things
which we're choosing, whether
00:34:14.05\00:34:16.72
it's sunshine, having this
effect or that effect, now,
00:34:16.72\00:34:19.55
read here Revelation chapter
16, and I know I'm jumping
00:34:19.55\00:34:22.29
forward, but the context of 14
is the wrath of God and by the
00:34:22.29\00:34:27.66
way, 15 and 16 are magnifying
and distilling for us what
00:34:27.66\00:34:32.23
this wrath actually looks like.
00:34:32.23\00:34:33.57
It's an unpacking.
00:34:33.57\00:34:35.07
>>TY: But what are they,
for those who, in 15, 16, the
00:34:35.07\00:34:40.34
thing you're now talking
about, it's called the 7 last
00:34:40.34\00:34:42.44
plagues, okay.
00:34:42.44\00:34:43.51
>>JAMES: Seven last plagues,
the laws of God's wrath,
00:34:43.51\00:34:45.05
here's what it looks like, for
example, and we're just gonna
00:34:45.05\00:34:47.42
look at Revelation chapter
16 and starting here in verse 8.
00:34:47.42\00:34:51.89
The fourth angel poured out,
no, excuse me, verse 10, the
00:34:51.89\00:34:55.59
fifth angel poured out his
vial upon the sea of the beast
00:34:55.59\00:34:58.36
and his kingdom
was full of darkness.
00:34:58.36\00:35:01.36
And they gnawed their tongues
for pain and blasphemed the
00:35:01.36\00:35:04.30
God of heaven because of
their pains, their sores, and
00:35:04.30\00:35:06.97
repented not of their deeds.
00:35:06.97\00:35:08.40
Two points here, God is
releasing people who have
00:35:08.40\00:35:12.31
chosen darkness rather
than light, that's very clear in
00:35:12.31\00:35:14.48
Revelation of John 3:16,
17, 18, 19, and 20, okay?
00:35:14.48\00:35:19.15
And as he releases people, as
he allows people, as he honors
00:35:19.15\00:35:22.98
choice, as CS Lewis says, as
he honors choice, he says, okay,
00:35:22.98\00:35:26.76
your will be done, these
people who experienced the
00:35:26.76\00:35:29.69
full consequence of
their choices don't repent.
00:35:29.69\00:35:33.60
They don't change.
00:35:33.60\00:35:35.20
>>TY: That's Jeffrey's point.
00:35:35.20\00:35:36.50
>>JAMES: Which confirms
that God has, actually honored
00:35:36.50\00:35:39.57
their choice.
00:35:39.57\00:35:40.74
Not that God has done
something dastardly to them,
00:35:40.74\00:35:42.67
because they won't repent, but
God is simply saying, even if
00:35:42.67\00:35:45.74
you're not gonna change.
00:35:45.74\00:35:47.68
>>JEFFREY: Were you granted
a million years, this would
00:35:47.68\00:35:50.15
remain your posture.
00:35:50.15\00:35:51.41
>>JAMES: And what really
brings this home is, many
00:35:51.41\00:35:53.85
times, God allows us to
taste a little bit of the
00:35:53.85\00:35:56.99
consequence of our
choices in order to bring us to
00:35:56.99\00:35:59.32
repentance.
00:35:59.32\00:36:00.59
We're like, whoa, but these
people, there's no, that's why
00:36:00.59\00:36:02.86
it's called the 7 last plagues.
00:36:02.86\00:36:05.89
It's last because there's
nothing else God can do, and
00:36:05.89\00:36:08.83
all through this, we find
this phrase, they didn't repent,
00:36:08.83\00:36:11.53
they blasphemed God, they
didn't repent, they blasphemed
00:36:11.53\00:36:13.54
God, to confirm the decision.
00:36:13.54\00:36:15.94
>>DAVID: I love
that, can I throw this out?
00:36:15.94\00:36:17.77
The biblical context, we've
said again and again that the
00:36:17.77\00:36:20.48
matrix in which the book
of Revelation is written, the
00:36:20.48\00:36:24.05
paints from which he is
painting the book is the Old
00:36:24.05\00:36:26.21
Testament, and clearly, as
just even a cursory reading
00:36:26.21\00:36:29.88
will show, the backstory of
the 7 last plagues is the 10
00:36:29.88\00:36:33.25
plagues that fell on Egypt.
00:36:33.25\00:36:34.79
And one of the questions
that I get asked a lot as a
00:36:34.79\00:36:36.69
preacher and as a pastor
and as an evangelist is, what's
00:36:36.69\00:36:38.83
this whole thing about how
God hardened Pharaoh's heart?
00:36:38.83\00:36:41.43
God hardened Pharaoh's heart,
God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
00:36:41.43\00:36:44.13
Here's an interesting thing.
00:36:44.13\00:36:45.33
You go back and read the story
of the 10 plagues on Egypt,
00:36:45.33\00:36:49.44
and I don't remember if it's
6 or 7 times, but 6 or 7 times,
00:36:49.44\00:36:52.84
it says, Pharaoh
hardened his heart.
00:36:52.84\00:36:54.84
First plague, Pharaoh hardened
his heart, Pharaoh hardened
00:36:54.84\00:36:57.05
his heart.
00:36:57.05\00:36:57.98
Second plague,
Pharaoh hardened his heart.
00:36:57.98\00:37:00.05
Third plague, Pharaoh hardened
his heart, and it's not 'til
00:37:00.05\00:37:02.05
you get down to like the
fourth or the fifth plague
00:37:02.05\00:37:04.05
that it finally says, and
God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
00:37:04.05\00:37:06.35
So, this is a fascinating thing.
00:37:06.35\00:37:08.66
Pharaoh's making choices,
Pharaoh's making decisions,
00:37:08.66\00:37:11.06
Pharaoh is proceeding to
respond to God, whose request,
00:37:11.06\00:37:14.03
by the way, was
quite reasonable.
00:37:14.03\00:37:16.03
Hey, can you just let
this group of my people go?
00:37:16.03\00:37:18.03
For three days,
they'll come back.
00:37:18.03\00:37:20.04
And Pharaoh's
like, who is this God?
00:37:20.04\00:37:22.04
I don't know him.
00:37:22.04\00:37:23.51
So, then, God's like,
okay, you're not reasonable, so
00:37:23.51\00:37:24.54
here's how we're gonna do this.
00:37:24.54\00:37:25.71
My nice, polite talking didn't
work, how about this as an
00:37:25.71\00:37:29.64
initial plague.
00:37:29.64\00:37:30.65
There didn't have to be ten.
00:37:30.65\00:37:31.95
Pharaoh could've been like,
okay, yeah, you're the God, I
00:37:31.95\00:37:34.45
get it, I see it.
00:37:34.45\00:37:35.98
Pharaoh hardened his heart.
00:37:35.98\00:37:37.59
Nebuchadnezzar did.
00:37:37.59\00:37:39.32
The Babylonian king, he got it.
00:37:39.32\00:37:42.72
That's a great point, I never
put that together, I'm gonna
00:37:42.72\00:37:44.56
preach that.
00:37:44.56\00:37:45.76
So, the context here is that
these are people that, plague
00:37:45.76\00:37:49.13
number one, they've hardened
their hearts, they've hardened
00:37:49.13\00:37:51.00
their hearts, they've
hardened their hearts.
00:37:51.00\00:37:52.40
So, this is not something that
God is doing externally or in
00:37:52.40\00:37:54.17
a contrived and a manipulative
way to them, like, you're not
00:37:54.17\00:37:57.91
allowed to repent, you're not
allowed to experience mourning
00:37:57.91\00:38:03.68
over your choices.
00:38:03.68\00:38:05.15
Your heart is hard.
00:38:05.15\00:38:07.35
Not because of choices that
I have made, I am now honoring
00:38:07.35\00:38:10.72
your choice.
00:38:10.72\00:38:11.82
We run a school.
00:38:11.82\00:38:12.82
A school called Arise.
00:38:12.82\00:38:13.96
Some people on the program
will be familiar with that.
00:38:13.96\00:38:15.62
I remember going way, way
back, probably 7 years ago, we
00:38:15.62\00:38:20.03
had to excuse a
student from the school.
00:38:20.03\00:38:22.06
And I was in that meeting
with a good friend of ours, Matt
00:38:22.06\00:38:23.43
Para, and I'll never forget,
he said to the student, he
00:38:23.43\00:38:26.63
said, hey, listen,
we're not kicking you out.
00:38:26.63\00:38:29.40
We're honoring
your choice to leave.
00:38:29.40\00:38:31.54
>>JAMES: That was
revolutionary for me.
00:38:31.54\00:38:33.48
The practical application.
00:38:33.48\00:38:35.61
>>DAVID: You have made choices
and we're now honoring your
00:38:35.61\00:38:38.58
choices.
00:38:38.58\00:38:39.41
That's the 7 plagues.
00:38:39.41\00:38:40.85
This is not...
00:38:40.85\00:38:43.52
>>JAMES: And look at how this
comes together 'cause Jeffrey
00:38:43.52\00:38:45.15
asked the question, what's the
heart, in Romans chapter 1, we
00:38:45.15\00:38:48.19
have the wrath of God defined
in the context of the gospel.
00:38:48.19\00:38:50.83
In Romans 2, he brings it
together in 2 verses, 2 verses
00:38:50.83\00:38:53.86
brings this all together, Paul
says this, verse 4, or despise
00:38:53.86\00:38:58.67
us thou the riches of
his goodness and forbearance,
00:38:58.67\00:39:01.17
that's the gospel, and
longsuffering, that's the
00:39:01.17\00:39:03.07
gospel, not knowing that
the goodness of God leads you to
00:39:03.07\00:39:05.24
repentance, his love and
his goodness, and then, in verse
00:39:05.24\00:39:07.81
5, but after thy
hardness and impenitent heart.
00:39:07.81\00:39:11.85
Are you treasuring up to
thyself wrath against the day
00:39:11.85\00:39:17.35
of wrath and the
righteous revelation?
00:39:17.35\00:39:18.45
>>JEFFREY: So, you're
treasuring it up and then, at
00:39:18.45\00:39:19.62
the end, God says, this is
what you've been treasuring up.
00:39:19.62\00:39:22.66
>>TY: You're full of this
wrath, you've stored it up
00:39:22.66\00:39:26.13
inside you.
00:39:26.13\00:39:27.03
>>JEFFREY: You've
stored it up, so okay.
00:39:27.03\00:39:28.10
>>JAMES: My goodness has
tried to lead, but you've been
00:39:28.10\00:39:29.30
resisting my goodness, you've
been resisting my goodness,
00:39:29.30\00:39:32.40
and so, you've been
treasuring up this wrath.
00:39:32.40\00:39:33.60
>>DAVID: You've made
these deposits, here's the
00:39:33.60\00:39:37.17
withdrawal.
00:39:37.17\00:39:38.17
>>JEFFREY: Can I make
one quick point on that?
00:39:38.17\00:39:39.41
In the very end, in Revelation
22, which we will get soon, at
00:39:39.41\00:39:43.24
the end when Jesus comes,
it says, he who is unjust, let
00:39:43.24\00:39:47.75
him be unjust still.
00:39:47.75\00:39:50.22
He who is filthy, let him be.
00:39:50.22\00:39:52.15
He who is righteous, let him be.
00:39:52.15\00:39:53.89
In my mind, I underlined
and circled, let him be.
00:39:53.89\00:39:57.06
It's the same principle.
00:39:57.06\00:39:58.43
It's the same principle.
00:39:58.43\00:39:59.56
Let it be.
00:39:59.56\00:40:00.76
>>JAMES: The wages of sin is
death, I'm just going by what
00:40:00.76\00:40:01.83
you said, your
illustration of the withdrawal.
00:40:01.83\00:40:03.40
The wages of sin are death
and we are insisting, I want my
00:40:03.40\00:40:05.33
wages.
00:40:05.33\00:40:06.27
I want my wages.
00:40:06.27\00:40:07.10
I want my wages.
00:40:07.10\00:40:08.04
Give me the money
out of my bank account.
00:40:08.04\00:40:09.60
>>DAVID: It's so funny that
you would say that because you
00:40:09.60\00:40:10.81
have that there in the, is
it the opening of the 6th seal,
00:40:10.81\00:40:13.54
where they say, they say
to the rocks, hide us from the
00:40:13.54\00:40:16.18
Lamb, hide us from the Lamb,
and God is like, I don't think
00:40:16.18\00:40:19.38
you wanna be hid from the Lamb.
00:40:19.38\00:40:21.78
But, we honor your choice.
00:40:21.78\00:40:23.28
It's like, we
want life without God.
00:40:23.28\00:40:25.42
To which God says, there is
no such thing, but I'll honor
00:40:25.42\00:40:29.22
your choice.
00:40:29.22\00:40:30.53
>>JAMES: Hide us from life.
00:40:30.53\00:40:31.63
your choice.
00:40:31.63\00:40:32.76
>>JAMES: Hide us from life.
00:40:32.76\00:40:33.36
>>TY: This is amazing, and
it fits with the Romans 2 text
00:40:34.00\00:40:35.90
that you just shared.
00:40:35.90\00:40:37.30
I wanna add one part
from that Romans text.
00:40:37.30\00:40:39.43
It says that they're storing
up wrath in themselves, for
00:40:39.43\00:40:44.34
the day of wrath and
righteous revelation of the
00:40:44.34\00:40:47.61
righteousness of God.
00:40:47.61\00:40:48.84
So, whatever they're
storing up inside of themselves,
00:40:48.84\00:40:52.61
they're storing up
psychologically and
00:40:52.61\00:40:54.72
emotionally, some kind
of response to the gospel.
00:40:54.72\00:40:58.09
They're storing this up, it's
combustible in the presence of
00:40:58.09\00:41:02.02
the revelation.
00:41:02.02\00:41:04.56
>>JAMES: It
really is. It really is.
00:41:04.56\00:41:06.70
It's heat.
00:41:06.86\00:41:07.76
Have you ever been
embarrassed in public?
00:41:07.76\00:41:09.46
It's heat.
00:41:09.46\00:41:09.63
There's heat.
00:41:09.90\00:41:10.90
There's something that happens
inside our psyche that causes
00:41:11.17\00:41:13.47
us to get hot and sweat and yes.
00:41:13.47\00:41:16.47
Can you imagine having
everything you've ever done
00:41:16.47\00:41:18.91
put out before
the entire universe?
00:41:18.91\00:41:22.78
Everything you've ever
thought, everything you've
00:41:22.78\00:41:24.01
ever felt, everything.
00:41:24.01\00:41:24.95
And see, the bible
says, yeah, before you.
00:41:24.95\00:41:28.72
>>JEFFREY: To enter into full
realization of the true nature
00:41:28.72\00:41:31.65
of your own brokenness,
I think that would snap
00:41:31.65\00:41:34.76
anybody's...
00:41:34.76\00:41:35.92
>>TY: Okay, I have to push
the pause button right there,
00:41:35.92\00:41:37.33
'cause we have to take
a break, but this has been
00:41:37.33\00:41:40.03
exciting.
00:41:40.03\00:41:41.73
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[Music]
00:42:38.29\00:42:43.29
>>TY: So, let's
summarize, James, give a summary
00:42:43.29\00:42:46.03
statement of chapters 15 and
16 and then, we'll launch into
00:42:46.03\00:42:49.23
chapter 17.
00:42:49.23\00:42:50.70
>>JAMES: So, 15 and 16
basically are fleshing out the
00:42:50.70\00:42:53.77
last verses of 14.
00:42:53.77\00:42:55.37
And they're defining the wrath
of God, which clearly is God
00:42:55.37\00:42:58.24
giving us up to the things
we've chosen once we come to
00:42:58.24\00:43:00.64
the place where we're not
gonna repent and we're not
00:43:00.64\00:43:02.51
gonna turn away.
00:43:02.51\00:43:03.75
And God is saying, okay, I'll
honor your choice, I'll honor
00:43:03.75\00:43:05.38
your choice, reluctantly,
with tears, he says, I'll honor
00:43:05.38\00:43:08.15
your choice.
00:43:08.15\00:43:08.82
How can I give you up?
00:43:08.82\00:43:11.39
How can I make you, how can I,
Ephraim, how can I, so this is
00:43:11.39\00:43:15.39
the heart wrenching, gut
wrenching experience, the
00:43:15.39\00:43:18.03
strange act of God actually
giving us over to what we've
00:43:18.03\00:43:20.86
chosen, but he has to.
00:43:20.86\00:43:22.26
Love has to honor choice.
00:43:22.26\00:43:24.03
He can't force us.
00:43:24.03\00:43:26.57
In fact, those who are not
wanting to go to heaven will
00:43:26.57\00:43:29.60
be torture to them, so
he honors those choices.
00:43:29.60\00:43:31.37
And all the way through 15 and
16, we see this revelation of
00:43:31.37\00:43:35.04
God, and in the middle of
it, we have this battle of
00:43:35.04\00:43:37.35
Armageddon where God says,
now wait a minute I want you to
00:43:37.35\00:43:40.05
understand the conflict that's
taking place and I want you
00:43:40.05\00:43:41.82
to trust in the righteousness
of Jesus Christ, the faith
00:43:41.82\00:43:47.22
of Jesus.
00:43:47.22\00:43:48.39
>>TY: Okay, so that was real
fast, you just mentioned the
00:43:48.39\00:43:50.86
battle of Armageddon.
00:43:50.86\00:43:52.09
>>JAMES: I just wanna mention,
because we're not gonna touch
00:43:52.09\00:43:52.49
it in detail.
00:43:52.49\00:43:54.20
It's simply a continuation
of the very thing, the very
00:43:54.20\00:43:57.27
conflict that we're involved
in, the battle of God, the
00:43:57.27\00:44:00.34
valley of the decision,
choosing God, the faith in
00:44:00.34\00:44:03.07
Jesus, the commandments of
God, over the hardening of our
00:44:03.07\00:44:05.91
heart and
rejecting his goodness.
00:44:05.91\00:44:07.61
>>TY: We all have a mutual
friend, Pastor Dwight Nelson,
00:44:07.61\00:44:10.65
he summarizes the battle of
Armageddon with this language,
00:44:10.65\00:44:14.92
he says, it's
the final showdown.
00:44:14.92\00:44:19.19
And he links it to the final
showdown between Elijah and
00:44:19.19\00:44:23.83
the false
prophets on Mount Carmel.
00:44:23.83\00:44:26.29
The key idea with that
battle of Armageddon is it's not
00:44:26.29\00:44:31.27
merely about physical bombs
and explosions and tanks, it's
00:44:31.27\00:44:36.91
the battle that's going on
in each person's mind and heart
00:44:36.91\00:44:40.68
regarding spiritual allegiance.
00:44:40.68\00:44:45.25
>>JAMES: Making a decision.
00:44:45.25\00:44:46.21
How long are you
halting between two opinions?
00:44:46.21\00:44:48.48
If God is God, follow
him, if Baal, follow him.
00:44:48.48\00:44:50.45
Make, everyone's in
this valley of decision.
00:44:50.45\00:44:53.15
And that's what we
see in Revelation 14.
00:44:53.15\00:44:55.22
We see a final decision
made for or against God.
00:44:55.22\00:44:58.06
>>TY: Okay, so chapter
17, let's just admit something
00:44:58.06\00:45:01.60
upfront as we
look at chapter 17.
00:45:01.60\00:45:03.26
It's hard.
00:45:03.26\00:45:04.40
Isn't it?
00:45:04.40\00:45:05.77
>>DAVID: As you all know, I
recently preached on this and
00:45:05.77\00:45:07.17
I feel like I understand it
pretty well, quite well, down
00:45:07.17\00:45:10.77
to verse 6 and then,
I understand some of it.
00:45:10.77\00:45:15.58
It gets hard.
00:45:15.58\00:45:17.31
>>TY: Revelation 17 is
difficult, but there are some
00:45:17.31\00:45:21.78
key concepts that aren't clear.
00:45:21.78\00:45:24.89
>>DAVID: Like, the
big picture is easy.
00:45:24.89\00:45:26.96
The big picture is easy, but
you know, the devil is in the
00:45:26.96\00:45:30.29
details, literally.
00:45:30.29\00:45:31.56
>>TY: So, since you preached
it recently, take us through
00:45:31.56\00:45:34.93
the first few verses
here and we'll comment.
00:45:34.93\00:45:37.10
>>DAVID: Okay, well, when
you get to Revelation 17, we're
00:45:37.10\00:45:38.93
introduced to a new figure,
a brand new figure, which is a
00:45:38.93\00:45:41.34
little bit unusual this
late in the game, right?
00:45:41.34\00:45:43.84
There's only 22 chapters in
Revelation, we're in 17, and
00:45:43.84\00:45:46.41
we're introduced to a new
figure and it's a harlot and
00:45:46.41\00:45:49.38
her name is Babylon the Great.
00:45:49.38\00:45:51.08
So, I'll just read
it, why don't I do that?
00:45:51.08\00:45:52.65
Then one of the seven angels
who had the seven bowls came
00:45:52.65\00:45:56.48
and talked with me, saying
to me, so there's the tie with
00:45:56.48\00:45:58.59
the angels, with the bowls,
so what we see here in 17 and
00:45:58.59\00:46:03.02
even 18 is the unpacking,
the further elucidating of the
00:46:03.02\00:46:07.66
outpouring of that 7th bowl.
00:46:07.66\00:46:09.90
Yeah, you comfortable with that?
00:46:09.90\00:46:11.03
>>TY: I am.
00:46:11.03\00:46:12.23
>>DAVID: Okay, so the angel
comes over, talks to John and
00:46:12.23\00:46:14.30
says, come, I will show
you the judgment of the great
00:46:14.30\00:46:15.80
harlot, here she
is, new character.
00:46:15.80\00:46:17.64
>>TY: Again, referring to
the fact that her demise is now
00:46:17.64\00:46:20.91
gonna be described.
00:46:20.91\00:46:21.98
>>DAVID: This is the
description of her demise and
00:46:21.98\00:46:24.78
we've not been introduced
to her up until this point, at
00:46:24.78\00:46:27.78
least not by this metaphor,
this picture, this symbol.
00:46:27.78\00:46:31.12
>>TY: We heard of
Babylon back in chapter 14.
00:46:31.12\00:46:33.56
>>DAVID: The idea of a harlot.
00:46:33.56\00:46:34.99
The judgment of the
great harlot who sits on many
00:46:34.99\00:46:37.26
waters.
00:46:37.26\00:46:38.43
Jeffrey has already read us
verse 15, I'll just do that,
00:46:38.43\00:46:40.80
in a past session.
00:46:40.80\00:46:42.70
Then he said to me, "The
waters which you saw, where
00:46:42.70\00:46:44.90
the harlot sits, are peoples,
multitudes, nations, and
00:46:44.90\00:46:46.57
tongues.
00:46:46.57\00:46:47.74
This is a symbolic picture
of this harlot, we've already
00:46:47.74\00:46:49.90
described it, a woman is a
people, a church, rather, and
00:46:49.90\00:46:56.24
the waters are people, okay?
00:46:56.24\00:46:58.81
It's actually, this far into
Revelation, it's not hard to
00:46:58.81\00:47:01.25
figure this out.
00:47:01.25\00:47:02.52
That's why I said
it simple on one level.
00:47:02.52\00:47:04.09
Verse 3, so he carried me
away in the Spirit into the
00:47:04.09\00:47:07.02
wilderness.
00:47:07.02\00:47:08.16
And I saw a woman, now
watch this, sitting on a scarlet
00:47:08.16\00:47:11.73
beast, which we've
already been exposed to beasts,
00:47:11.73\00:47:15.06
nations, empires, powers, full
of names of blasphemy, having
00:47:15.06\00:47:19.53
seven heads and ten horns.
00:47:19.53\00:47:21.07
That's also familiar to us.
00:47:21.07\00:47:22.27
Sorry for the
commentary, let me just go.
00:47:22.27\00:47:23.67
The woman was arrayed
in purple and scarlet, and
00:47:23.67\00:47:25.61
adorned with gold and precious
stones and pearls, having in
00:47:25.61\00:47:27.84
her hand a golden cup
full of abominations of the
00:47:27.84\00:47:29.98
filthiness of her fornication.
00:47:29.98\00:47:32.61
And on her forehead a name was
written, mystery, Babylon the
00:47:32.61\00:47:35.52
great, the mother of
harlots, plural, and of the
00:47:35.52\00:47:38.59
abominations of the earth.
00:47:38.59\00:47:39.75
I saw the woman, drunk
with the blood of the saints and
00:47:39.75\00:47:42.19
with the blood of the martyrs.
00:47:42.19\00:47:43.96
And when I saw her, I
marveled with great amazement.
00:47:43.96\00:47:47.03
>>TY: That's heavy.
00:47:47.03\00:47:48.50
You wouldn't read this to your
3 year old, your 5 year old as
00:47:48.50\00:47:53.57
a little...
00:47:53.57\00:47:54.57
>>DAVID: Let's
have a bible reading.
00:47:54.57\00:47:55.70
>>TY: Yeah.
00:47:55.70\00:47:56.77
>>JEFFREY: Bedtime story.
00:47:56.77\00:47:58.21
First of all, it's
identified as the harlot.
00:47:58.21\00:48:00.58
I think that's profound
because, in the Old Testament,
00:48:00.58\00:48:03.61
we've been constantly pointing
back to that in the book of
00:48:03.61\00:48:06.35
Revelation, based
on the Old Testament.
00:48:06.35\00:48:09.62
But in the Old Testament,
the harlot is always Jerusalem
00:48:09.62\00:48:14.09
apostatized.
00:48:14.09\00:48:16.12
For example, in Ezekiel 16,
you have Jerusalem's harlotry
00:48:16.12\00:48:19.86
for anybody taking notes,
Ezekiel chapter 16, in verses
00:48:19.86\00:48:23.80
15 and onwards.
00:48:23.80\00:48:25.00
And so, all through the Old
Testament, when God's people,
00:48:25.00\00:48:28.70
when God's church is
unfaithful, she's tagged as
00:48:28.70\00:48:33.64
the harlot.
00:48:33.64\00:48:35.18
So, here in chapter 17,
whatever this harlot is, we
00:48:35.18\00:48:37.88
know because of the clues we
get from the Old Testament, it
00:48:37.88\00:48:40.75
has to do with
the church gone bad.
00:48:40.75\00:48:42.58
>>TY: Yeah, it's
a religious body.
00:48:42.58\00:48:43.82
>>JEFFREY: It's a
religious entity that is not
00:48:43.82\00:48:46.02
representing...
00:48:46.02\00:48:47.72
>>TY: The truth about God.
00:48:47.72\00:48:48.89
>>DAVID: And we should
say, Jeffrey, you touched on it,
00:48:48.89\00:48:50.86
there, that the backstory,
if you wanna understand what's
00:48:50.86\00:48:53.63
happening in Revelation 17:1-6,
go read Ezekiel 16 and 23.
00:48:53.63\00:48:58.50
That is the backstory,
the language, the dress, the
00:48:58.50\00:49:01.77
behavior.
00:49:01.77\00:49:03.00
That is the backstory
of Revelation 17 and 18.
00:49:03.00\00:49:06.01
How your lovers turn on
you, all of that is right in
00:49:06.01\00:49:09.58
Ezekiel 16.
00:49:09.58\00:49:10.55
>>TY: Yeah,
that's where he got...
00:49:10.55\00:49:11.81
>>DAVID: That's the language.
00:49:11.81\00:49:12.78
>>JEFFREY: This is
heavy because the tendency for
00:49:12.78\00:49:16.08
Christians to always view
the enemy from the outside, the
00:49:16.08\00:49:20.86
world is the enemy, oppressive
powers are the enemy, other
00:49:20.86\00:49:24.86
entities, secular entities,
but according to John's
00:49:24.86\00:49:28.70
revelation, he has very
little concern with the enemies
00:49:28.70\00:49:32.33
outside, and he always brings
our attention to religion,
00:49:32.33\00:49:35.94
that the issue is found in
religion itself, not in the
00:49:35.94\00:49:40.21
secular world.
00:49:40.21\00:49:41.38
I think that's also profound.
00:49:41.38\00:49:42.54
>>DAVID: Well, the secular
world is there in the terms of
00:49:42.54\00:49:44.08
the beast.
00:49:44.08\00:49:45.15
>>JEFFREY: It is, but if
you look at the onus of the
00:49:45.15\00:49:47.35
attention and of,
it's almost like obsessive.
00:49:47.35\00:49:50.02
>>TY: The point Jeffrey's
making is a powerful one
00:49:50.02\00:49:53.09
because, the secular powers,
the nations in this passage
00:49:53.09\00:49:58.59
are not using the woman,
the woman is using, the woman is
00:49:58.59\00:50:03.43
on the back of the beast.
00:50:03.43\00:50:05.73
>>JEFFREY: Who's riding whom?
00:50:05.73\00:50:07.30
>>TY: Who's riding whom?
00:50:07.30\00:50:08.30
Who's in charge here?
00:50:08.30\00:50:09.24
>>JEFFREY: Who's
driving this thing?
00:50:09.24\00:50:10.51
>>TY: That's right.
00:50:10.51\00:50:11.74
So, religion gone bad
is really bad because it
00:50:11.74\00:50:16.91
professes, it claims to
represent God, so it confuses
00:50:16.91\00:50:21.32
human beings regarding God.
00:50:21.32\00:50:24.42
If a nation, a secular nation
is doing horrible things, it's
00:50:24.42\00:50:31.43
doing horrible
things in its own name.
00:50:31.43\00:50:34.00
And there is no projection
onto God, but when a religion
00:50:34.00\00:50:38.67
that bears the name of Jesus,
of all things, is claiming to
00:50:38.67\00:50:42.77
represent God and
simultaneously doing these
00:50:42.77\00:50:45.47
kinds of things, I think that
we have a very horrific part
00:50:45.47\00:50:50.48
of history here.
00:50:50.48\00:50:51.61
And there are two, let me
point this out, we said that
00:50:51.61\00:50:56.38
this is religion gone bad, but
the text actually tells us how
00:50:56.38\00:50:59.72
it's gone bad.
00:50:59.72\00:51:01.19
Number one, it's through
her fornication with political
00:51:01.19\00:51:06.13
powers, with nations.
00:51:06.13\00:51:07.46
She's on the back of the
beast, which is a political
00:51:07.46\00:51:09.20
power, so that tells us that
the combination, the union of
00:51:09.20\00:51:13.27
church and state or religion
and civil power, military
00:51:13.27\00:51:17.31
power, penalties, you're gonna
go to jail, you're gonna be
00:51:17.31\00:51:20.74
punished by the state because
of religious matters, that's a
00:51:20.74\00:51:24.45
lethal combination, and the
other thing we know about this
00:51:24.45\00:51:29.65
power is that
she's drunk with blood.
00:51:29.65\00:51:32.72
So, this is a woman
who is shedding blood.
00:51:32.72\00:51:35.26
This is a religious power that
is using violence and force,
00:51:35.26\00:51:38.83
persecution in the name of God.
00:51:38.83\00:51:41.96
Those are at least two of the
things that tell us what's so
00:51:41.96\00:51:45.40
bad about this woman that
makes her a whore, a harlot, a
00:51:45.40\00:51:49.00
prostitute.
00:51:49.00\00:51:50.41
>>JAMES: And it's really sad
because, in a world where the
00:51:50.41\00:51:53.07
secular has lost credibility,
in a world where people are
00:51:53.07\00:51:57.65
realizing that there's no help
in atheism or in government,
00:51:57.65\00:52:02.68
et cetera, the church has
their foot in the door, they
00:52:02.68\00:52:06.09
have an advantage and they
use that advantage to gain and
00:52:06.09\00:52:09.89
solicit credibility from the
people of the world, we are a
00:52:09.89\00:52:14.50
religious organization,
therefore, we are better than
00:52:14.50\00:52:18.03
all those other options
that you tried and I think the
00:52:18.03\00:52:20.60
world is right
for that right now.
00:52:20.60\00:52:22.64
The world is right for a
religious organization to step
00:52:22.64\00:52:25.71
in and try to heal and solve
the problems of the world and
00:52:25.71\00:52:28.91
everyone's looking up
and saying, oh, we've tried
00:52:28.91\00:52:30.55
everything, here's the last
option, here's the best option
00:52:30.55\00:52:34.02
for us, let's try this.
00:52:34.02\00:52:35.22
So, really, when you look at
Revelation 17, and this is the
00:52:35.22\00:52:37.29
point I'm trying to make,
the context of Revelation 17 is
00:52:37.29\00:52:42.06
one of the 7 angels
that has the 7 bowls.
00:52:42.06\00:52:45.03
It's in the end of time.
00:52:45.03\00:52:46.66
Even though we're looking
at the history, the cumulative
00:52:46.66\00:52:49.16
history of all of these
religious systems, we're
00:52:49.16\00:52:51.93
looking at an end time power
that is finally, because in
00:52:51.93\00:52:55.34
the sequence here, this woman
has been riding the beast, but
00:52:55.34\00:52:59.84
has been dethroned from the
beast, fallen off the beast,
00:52:59.84\00:53:03.95
but is going to
ride the beast again.
00:53:03.95\00:53:05.85
So, when we look at history,
we've seen it already in the
00:53:05.85\00:53:08.42
dark ages, we've seen it
already in history past, that
00:53:08.42\00:53:10.29
there's a time when these two
came together, everyone said,
00:53:10.29\00:53:12.32
yes, religion is our answer,
and then, it was dethroned,
00:53:12.32\00:53:14.72
atheism,
communism, French Revolution.
00:53:14.72\00:53:18.63
And then, there's a time
when this woman is gonna be
00:53:18.63\00:53:20.46
reunited with the beast.
00:53:20.46\00:53:22.16
And again, the world, which
is ripe right now, is gonna say,
00:53:22.16\00:53:24.50
yes, religion is our
only last, best hope.
00:53:24.50\00:53:27.14
>>TY: The other thing that
stands out to me here is that in
00:53:27.14\00:53:29.27
verse 5, she's the mother of
the abominations of the earth.
00:53:29.27\00:53:32.87
That's telling us that a lot
of the horrible stuff going on
00:53:32.87\00:53:38.65
in the world is the
result of bad religion.
00:53:38.65\00:53:42.22
That has to be understood.
00:53:42.22\00:53:44.99
When I was in Europe one time,
maybe 7 years ago, I was in
00:53:44.99\00:53:50.73
Netherlands, in Holland,
and somebody said, we did a poll
00:53:50.73\00:53:57.47
here, we went up and down
the streets and we had two
00:53:57.47\00:54:00.37
questions for
the people over here.
00:54:00.37\00:54:02.07
Now, you have to
remember the historical context.
00:54:02.07\00:54:04.07
This is western Europe where
Christianity was the thing, I
00:54:04.07\00:54:09.48
mean, everyone, all these
were Christian nations and now,
00:54:09.48\00:54:12.91
they're very secular nations.
00:54:12.91\00:54:14.18
So, they're walking up and
down the streets and they're
00:54:14.18\00:54:16.52
saying to people, do you
have an interest in church or
00:54:16.52\00:54:20.22
religion?
00:54:20.22\00:54:21.46
Eight out of ten people said,
no, and were ready to walk off.
00:54:21.46\00:54:25.29
Eight out of ten people, no
interest at all in church or
00:54:25.29\00:54:27.40
religion.
00:54:27.40\00:54:28.46
But they said, we have a
second question, do you have
00:54:28.46\00:54:29.73
an interest in God?
00:54:29.73\00:54:31.63
And the numbers flipped.
00:54:31.63\00:54:33.37
Eight out of ten
people said, well, God, sure.
00:54:33.37\00:54:35.44
I'm interested in God.
00:54:35.44\00:54:37.61
Are you interested in Jesus?
00:54:37.61\00:54:39.71
Yeah, he's a
pretty interesting figure.
00:54:39.71\00:54:41.44
Are you interested in religion?
00:54:41.44\00:54:43.65
Nope.
00:54:43.65\00:54:45.18
So, that tells us that
something horrible went down
00:54:45.18\00:54:49.02
in human history that
caused people to back up from
00:54:49.02\00:54:55.02
religion, but, as James is
saying, people are starting to
00:54:55.02\00:54:59.19
lean in with curiosity
about Jesus and about God.
00:54:59.19\00:55:04.80
>>JEFFREY: The whole concept
of Gandhi, you know, I'd be a
00:55:04.80\00:55:06.03
Christian if it
weren't for the Christians.
00:55:06.03\00:55:08.04
>>TY: Yeah, that's
heavy, that's heavy.
00:55:08.04\00:55:10.04
So, somebody summarize in
the 50 seconds that remains
00:55:10.04\00:55:15.48
Revelation 17 and the
verses that we've covered.
00:55:15.48\00:55:18.58
David.
00:55:18.58\00:55:20.38
>>DAVID: Well, the brief
summary is that you have an
00:55:20.38\00:55:23.55
unfaithful church on the back
of a beastly state, and she is
00:55:23.55\00:55:27.92
in control.
00:55:27.92\00:55:28.99
She is a persecuting
power, she is an illicit and
00:55:28.99\00:55:31.79
illegitimate relations
with the kings of the earth, and
00:55:31.79\00:55:34.60
ultimately, God's judgment
is going to be on this system of
00:55:34.60\00:55:39.50
church and state.
00:55:39.50\00:55:41.50
>>TY: So, the conclusion of
the whole matter is that there
00:55:41.50\00:55:45.74
is a lethal combination that
has been experimented with in
00:55:45.74\00:55:49.48
history and that is the union
of church and state and the
00:55:49.48\00:55:52.85
religion of Christ, the pure
and true religion of Christ,
00:55:52.85\00:55:55.78
segregates church and state in
order to allow human beings to
00:55:55.78\00:55:59.55
have the freedom to love
God for who he is, not on the
00:55:59.55\00:56:04.96
premise of penalty and threat.
00:56:04.96\00:56:06.93
>>JAMES: Perfect.
00:56:06.93\00:56:07.96
[Music]
00:56:07.96\00:56:11.03
>>JAMES: Perfect.
00:56:11.03\00:56:11.20