Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000410A
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00:00 [Music]
00:11 [Music] 00:20 >>TY: Revelation chapter 14 is a passage of scripture that 00:24 gives what some bible students have termed the final message 00:29 of mercy to the world. 00:31 I like the fact that they call it final message of mercy, 00:35 because there are some hard edges to some of the message 00:38 and some of it can come down kinda hard, but the fact is 00:42 that everything that is communicated in first, second, 00:46 and third angel's message is in the context of the 00:50 everlasting gospel, which is the first bit of language in 00:55 message number one, back in verse 6. 00:58 And I really appreciated in the last session that James 01:03 brought this idea forward that everything that happens in the 01:07 first angel's message is under the umbrella. 01:09 He went a step further and said, everything that is 01:12 mentioned in the first angel's message is defined by the 01:16 everlasting gospel. 01:17 It can't be at cross purposes with the gospel. 01:21 I would like to extend that to the second and third angel's 01:25 message and suggest that all of it is under the umbrella of 01:29 the gospel. 01:30 Yes, so let's read the second angel's message. 01:36 >>JAMES: Do we have to read it fast or slow? 01:38 If we have to read it slow, I can read it. 01:39 If we have to read it fast, then we can have David read it. 01:42 >>TY: At this point, we're not in a hurry, so you can read it. 01:43 >>JAMES: Alright. 01:44 >>TY: So, the second angel's message is in Revelation 14 01:47 and verse 8. 01:48 It's a single verse. 01:49 >>JAMES: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon 01:53 is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations 02:00 drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 02:03 How was that for speed? 02:05 >>TY: That was good. 02:06 This is heavy. 02:08 So, here are the elements that we need to unfold. 02:13 First of all, I think the word followed is significant. 02:15 >>JAMES: Key. 02:17 >>TY: Isn't it? 02:18 >>JAMES: Yes. 02:19 >>TY: Okay because, followed what? 02:20 Followed the first angel's message. 02:23 So, do you guys see this connection that the 02:27 proclamation of the everlasting gospel in verses 6 02:32 and 7 precipitates the fall of Babylon? 02:36 So, there's a connection between the fall of Babylon 02:39 and the proclamation of the gospel. 02:41 >>JEFFREY: So, the events happening in the second angel 02:43 are in consequence to the message of what was 02:46 represented in the first angel. 02:48 >>TY: I think so. 02:49 I don't think they're free-floating. 02:51 >>JEFFREY: Which is awesome because Babylon doesn't fall 02:54 by God organizing a full-on direct assault on it, right? 02:59 It falls, sort of, kinda like the result of. 03:04 >>JAMES: But guys, this is the entire theme of what we've 03:08 been talking about in the book of Revelation. 03:10 God does not make a full-on assault against Satan, he 03:13 could've cast him to the ground as easily as you cast a 03:15 pebble to the ground, but he does what? 03:18 He exalts, he focuses on his heart, his character, his 03:22 love, his goodness, his sacrificing, others-centered 03:24 love, and it's that revelation of the gospel of who he is 03:27 that brings this, an enemy of God down. 03:30 So, this is the final message, this is a summation of 03:34 everything God has been doing from the very inception of 03:36 sin. 03:37 So, obviously, it's gonna follow that same track. 03:39 >>JEFFREY: Is this some sort of pattern, too, that's hinted 03:43 at, not only is this how God relates to evil, but maybe 03:48 this is also how the church and how God's people ought to 03:51 relate to evil. 03:53 This whole idea of not... 03:54 >>JAMES: Can't be the opposite of God, we gotta be, we follow 03:57 him wherever he goes. 03:58 >>JEFFREY: So, I think this is interesting because a lot of 04:01 Christians or people who believe in God, I think we may 04:03 have the tendency to relate to the world and point fingers at 04:07 things we don't like and overly critical about the 04:11 things we don't like all the time, but in God's pattern, 04:15 God exalts truth, exalts love, exalts his character, his 04:20 selflessness, and that is his critique in regard to evil and 04:25 darkness, right? 04:26 So, it's a lot easier to sit in judgement, to sit in a 04:29 critical posture, it's a lot harder to exemplify our 04:34 contrast and let that be the critique, you know what I'm 04:36 saying? 04:37 >>JAMES: I think that point is confirmed also by, not 04:39 something that's in the text, but something that's missing 04:42 from the text. 04:43 In Revelation 14 and verse 6, it says, the first angel is 04:48 preaching, or 7, it says, the first angel is preaching with 04:51 a loud voice. 04:52 >>DAVID: I've had the same perspective. 04:55 >>JAMES: Same perspective, so Revelation, I'm not finished 04:57 with it, so Revelation 14:8, it says the second angel 05:01 sounds, and it says, and there followed another angel saying, 05:05 Babylon has fallen. 05:05 There's no loud voice. 05:07 >>JEFFREY: The loudness is with the proclamation of the 05:09 gospel. 05:10 >>JAMES: It's not the enunciary, loud, in your face 05:12 megaphone on the corner, all sinners, you're going to hell 05:16 unless you repent. 05:17 It's basically the focus of the everlasting gospel that's 05:21 kind of bringing Babylon down and it strives a consequence. 05:23 People have seen it and they're going, whoa, Babylon's 05:26 just kind of falling, as they see the everlasting gospel. 05:28 >>TY: It's losing credibility. 05:29 >>JAMES: It's losing credibility. 05:30 >>TY: So... 05:32 >>JAMES: David was gonna say something. 05:33 >>DAVID: Well, I was just gonna say that the loud voice 05:35 returns with the third angle's message, which we'll get to, 05:37 so I don't wanna run ahead. 05:38 >>TY: Okay, that's the followed part. 05:42 We've talked about, the second angel's message follows the 05:45 first and we're saying that there's a connection between 05:49 the fall of Babylon and the proclamation of the gospel 05:53 because there are two systems being compared. 05:55 I like the word that Jeffrey used, there's a contrast. 05:58 And Babylon falls, or loses credibility by contrast to the 06:03 gospel. 06:05 What about Babylon, though? 06:07 We haven't even defined, this is a very cryptic term. 06:11 Babylon has fallen? 06:12 Is this the city over in...? 06:14 >>DAVID: Well, this is gonna, we will have an entire, the 06:18 degree to which we will be able to get into it in depth 06:22 remains to be seen in Revelations 17, but this 06:24 description of the fall of Babylon is picked up in 06:28 greater detail, with considerable depth, 06:31 in 17 and 18. 06:33 So, at this point, John introduces it, it's almost 06:36 like a repeat and enlarge theme here in the sense that, 06:39 we're gonna come back to that. 06:41 Whether or not we'll be able to in the context of this, you 06:42 know, we're running out of sessions, but Babylon is 06:46 defined, as are all of the terms in context in the book 06:51 of Revelation from the Old Testament. 06:52 So, we have ancient Babylon, Tower of Babel. 06:56 Then, we have Neo Babylon, under Nebuchadnezzar, and then 06:58 we have end time Babylon. 07:00 So, you're really dealing with 3 different phases, maybe 07:04 that's not the right word, three different nations or 07:07 powers or entities that could be legitimately defined as 07:10 Babylon, right? 07:11 The Genesis 11, tower of Babel Babylon, the Babylon under 07:14 Nebuchadnezzar, and then, end time Babylon. 07:18 >>TY: But all of those phases or manifestations of Babylon, 07:22 they're identified as Babylon because they have commonality. 07:27 >>DAVID: There is commonality. 07:28 >>TY: There are principles that are in play in every 07:31 phase of Babylon, in scripture. 07:36 Go ahead. 07:38 >>JEFFREY: Genesis 11, you just pointed to the tower of 07:41 Babel, well, what was the central characteristic there? 07:44 It was man trying to ascend, right, to the heavens, a tower 07:49 that will reach to the heavens. 07:51 So, in other words, it's man asserting himself and trying 07:56 to approach God in man's own terms. 07:59 >>TY: Kind of a self-salvation. 08:01 >>JEFFREY: That's it, and then, you fast-forward to the 08:04 Neo Babylon, as you mentioned, and Nebuchadnezzar. 08:08 Now, we're in Babylonia, right, the empire of Babylon, 08:11 and you have Nebuchadnezzar, and in Daniel chapter 4, which 08:15 we obviously haven't touched, Nebuchadnezzar says, is this 08:19 not great Babylon which I have built? 08:24 >>TY: For my glory, he says. 08:26 >>JEFFREY: Nothing has changed, as far as I'm 08:27 concerned, because you're seeing in Genesis 11 the same 08:30 operating principle. 08:32 The same thing in neo Babylon, it's a manmade system that's 08:39 being presented in the bible. 08:40 And so, when you get to this one here, same thing. 08:45 John is reaching back to the Old Testament and bringing 08:48 into focus this entity called Babylon because he wants to 08:53 draw our attention to the characteristics, which is this 08:58 manmade system. 09:00 >>JAMES: That's one of the commonalities. 09:01 >>TY: It's not just manmade, though, it's manmade with a 09:07 certain philosophical and theological outlook, which you 09:10 mentioned and that is self-exaltation, human beings 09:13 ascending to God versus the gospel, the everlasting gospel 09:20 teaches, God descending, condescending in the person of 09:27 Christ for our salvation. 09:30 >>DAVID: There is a point right here, don't lose 09:32 anything that you were thinking of, but I have this 09:35 sermon that I have been preaching for years going 09:36 back, oh, I don't know, a decade or more, where when God 09:40 describes the building of the altar, this is right at the 09:43 end of Exodus chapter 20, he says, hey, look, you can make 09:46 an altar for me, but on two conditions, these are 09:49 basically like the two stipulations with the building 09:51 of the altar. 09:52 Number one is you can't put a cut stone on it, no hunestone. 09:54 You can grab a stone from the riverbed or from the, you 09:56 know, the quarry, just chuck it in there, but not a 09:59 hunestone. 10:00 Don't put your tool on it. 10:02 >>TY: Don't apply any human effort to it. 10:03 >>DAVID: And then the other one is, no steps. 10:05 Don't build any steps up to my altar, because that would be 10:08 to undermine the central point of the sacrifice of Christ, 10:12 which is not that we ascend to him in any way, but that 10:17 descends to us, and what you see in the tower of Babel it's 10:20 like, architecturally, we will ascend, which anticipates a 10:24 theological anti-Babylon, we will ascend. 10:28 Something that I will do will make a contribution to this 10:31 whole God and man interface. 10:33 >>TY: So, essentially, we're saying that Babylon equals the 10:37 salvation by works system. 10:40 >>JAMES: I really like that definition, and you know why? 10:42 I was in Pakistan doing a seminar for a number of 10:44 pastors and one of them asked me, so who's Babylon? 10:47 We were done with the session, who's Babylon? 10:49 And I said, to him, I said in the context of Revelation 14, 10:54 and verses 6 and 7, Babylon, because it falls in the wake 11:00 of the everlasting gospel being preached. 11:02 Babylon is any system, any religious belief in the world 11:07 that is contrary to the everlasting gospel. 11:10 >>TY: That's a great way to say it. 11:12 That's a very excellent summary. 11:14 >>JEFFREY: That way it's not limited. 11:18 >>TY: The whole world is a merit system. 11:19 >>JAMES: And if anything is in harmony with the everlasting 11:22 gospel, it's good, and if it isn't, get out of it. 11:25 Let it fall, let it fall away. 11:26 >>TY: I love that. 11:28 That's very easy to wrap your mind around so you're not 11:30 pointing the finger, necessarily at any one person 11:34 or system, it's any system, and there are systems that 11:37 have been identified already in Revelation as specifically 11:41 Babylonian in its theological outlook, but basically, we're 11:45 saying that before Babylon is manifested in any kind of 11:49 corporate system, religion, or political system, it's in us. 11:55 We're all inclined to the salvation by works paradigm. 11:59 We're all inclined to self-salvation and Babylon is 12:04 the confusion regarding the character of God that would 12:08 cause people to look upon him as mean and austere and 12:12 distant and waiting for us to get our act together to earn 12:15 his favor. 12:16 The gospel is flipping the whole paradigm on its head and 12:19 saying, you can't earn God's favor because you 12:22 already have it. 12:23 God is already good and there's nothing you can do to 12:25 make him better than he is. 12:27 >>DAVID: Revelation 1, who loved us and washed us. 12:29 That's the order, that order is essential. 12:33 Loved, then washed, not cleaned you up, get yourself 12:37 together, now I love you. 12:39 >>TY: There's nothing you can do to make God love you more 12:41 than he already does and there's nothing you could do 12:44 to make God love you less because... 12:46 >>DAVID: His love is not a reflection of what's, I got 12:49 it, go ahead. 12:50 >>TY: I can't alter God. 12:54 If I could alter God, then I'm the bigger person in the 12:56 relationship. 12:58 I'm the more significant part of the relationship. 13:01 God is acting upon me and I'm responsive, not the other way 13:06 around. 13:07 >>DAVID: He's the initiator, you're the responder. 13:08 >>TY: Say that again. 13:09 >>DAVID: He's the initiator, you're the responder. 13:10 >>TY: And I'm the responder. 13:11 We love him, 1 John 4:19, because he first loved us. 13:16 >>JEFFREY: You know how you were saying that it's a 13:18 principle that everything that is based on selfishness will 13:20 eventually crash. 13:23 Remember you said that? 13:24 Well, here it says, Babylon is fallen and we're identifying 13:26 that the principle behind Babylon, before it takes an 13:30 institutional identity, is what's in our nature. 13:33 Well, the fall of Lucifer is the same thing. 13:36 It just came to my mind, the word fallen, in Isaiah 14, how 13:39 you are fallen from heaven. 13:41 So, what caused Lucifer's fall from heaven is the same thing 13:45 that, in principle, that causes Babylon's fall. 13:48 It's the same thing. 13:51 So, really Babylon is just, it's just the end time 13:55 manifestation of the very principle that caused Lucifer 13:59 to fall from heaven. 14:00 >>TY: You know what's interesting there, Jeffrey? 14:03 Is in Isaiah 14, Babylon and the king of Babylon, 14:08 specifically, is being addressed by the Lord. 14:10 >>JEFFREY: That's very powerful. 14:12 It just so happens to be Babylon there. 14:14 >>TY: It's Babylon that's being addressed in Isaiah 14 14:17 and then, in verse 12, it shifts to Lucifer. 14:20 There are verses in Daniel, see if you guys, if this makes 14:27 any sense. 14:28 Daniel, of course, is dealing with Babylon and then Babylon 14:32 manifested in the fourth power, the Roman Empire is end 14:37 time Babylon. 14:39 That's a lot to say in a sentence, but the fourth 14:41 power, but in the book of Daniel, listen to these 14:44 descriptions. 14:47 It says that a stone cut without hands smites or hits 14:52 the, chapter 2, yeah, the fourth, down here at the feet 14:58 where you have the Roman empire now divided into the 15:04 European nations and specifically, the most 15:07 dominant among them, the papal church state. 15:12 Okay, so it's interesting that it says that that kingdom 15:18 falls by a stone cut without hands. 15:21 In chapter 2 of Daniel, I think we're familiar with 15:24 that, but look at this, then, in chapter 8, and this 15:28 language in chapter 8 and verse 25, it says, through his 15:32 cunning, he shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule and he 15:36 shall exalt himself in his heart, that's the principle of 15:40 self-exaltation that we've been talking about. 15:42 He shall destroy many in their prosperity, he shall even rise 15:47 up against the Prince of princes, that's Jesus the 15:50 Messiah, but he shall be broken without human means. 15:57 That's the fall of Babylon. 15:58 Babylon falls not by the same principles of cunning and 16:02 deceit and self-exaltation, Babylon falls by the 16:05 proclamation of the gospel. 16:07 And then, there's a parallel text talking about the same 16:09 power again in Daniel chapter 11, verse 44, it says of this 16:13 final manifestation of Babylon, it says, but news. 16:19 >>JAMES: Tidings. 16:20 >>TY: Is it tidings in the King James? 16:21 Tidings or news from the east and the north will trouble him. 16:26 Trouble Babylon, therefore, he shall go out with great fury 16:31 to destroy and annihilate many. 16:33 These are parallel passages is what I'm saying. 16:36 Yeah. 16:37 None will help him. 16:38 Will come to his end by what? 16:40 By news. 16:41 >>JAMES: Yeah, by news. 16:42 >>TY: By tidings? 16:44 >>JEFFREY: Something being proclaimed. 16:45 >>TY: Something being proclaimed brings Babylon to 16:47 its knees, without hands? 16:50 >>JAMES: The stone, Jesus is the stone? 16:52 >>TY: Yeah. 16:53 So the gospel brings Babylon down. 16:57 Ideologically, philosophically, 16:59 theologically, in our minds, in our hearts. 17:02 And then, it brings Babylon down, that fall spreads and it 17:07 brings Babylon down institutionally, corporately. 17:11 The whole system crumbles under the beautiful weight of 17:16 the gospel because people begin to open their eyes and 17:19 say, wait a minute, this system is contrary to 17:24 everything my heart and soul needs, but here in Jesus, 17:29 there is a revelation of God that is truly good news. 17:33 >>JAMES: You know, it's interesting because Christ 17:35 makes that application in the gospels, and I can't remember 17:37 where, very personal individual, when he says, 17:40 whoever falls on this stone shall be broken, but whoever 17:45 this stone falls upon, it'll grind him to powder, and it's 17:48 a very individual, personal thing there. 17:50 >>DAVID: Yeah, the idea of brokenness, personal, 17:52 individual brokenness at the cross. 17:56 >>TY: Okay, pause button right there because it's time to 17:58 take our break, but when we come back, yeah, we'll come 18:01 back and we'll continue looking at the fall of Babylon 18:04 and then, specifically, the third angel's message. 18:07 >>JAMES: Yeah. 18:08 [Music] 18:20 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 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21:08 >>JAMES: That's good, I like that. 21:10 >>DAVID: I thought it was cool, because you had the 21:11 whole come out of my, I thought it was interesting. 21:13 Anybody can take that if they wanna. 21:15 The book is not, it's 10 years on. 21:17 >>JAMES: Just to touch on this, we didn't miss this 21:19 phrase, but I just wanna touch on it in follow up to what 21:21 David said, for, Babylon has fallen, that great city, 21:25 because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath 21:28 of her fornication. 21:29 And Jesus says in Matthew, yeah, Jesus says in Matthew 21:34 chapter 26, he takes this, the last Supper, he's with the 21:37 disciples, and he's breaking the bread and the wine and 21:40 when he gets to the wine, he says, he takes the cup, so you 21:44 got the cup in Revelation 14, takes the cup, he gives 21:47 thanks, he gives it to them, he says, drink ye all of it, 21:50 for this is my blood, and it's the wine, the grape juice, 21:54 this is my blood, which is of the New Testament, which is 21:57 shed for many for the remission of sins. 21:59 There's a counterfeit gospel. 22:01 We've talked about that. 22:02 There's a counterfeit gospel that Babylon is proclaiming. 22:06 A counterfeit wine, a counterfeit salvation, a 22:07 counterfeit New Testament, that leads... 22:10 >>DAVID: When you said counterfeit right there, you 22:11 sound really eastern. 22:12 >>JAMES: Do I? 22:13 That leads to fornication or spiritual unfaithfulness to 22:19 God. 22:20 Yeah, and it's in contrast with the everlasting gospel. 22:22 She's made people drink of this salvation that is not in 22:25 harmony with the everlasting gospel. 22:27 >>JEFFREY: So, they're getting drunk off, so that wine makes 22:29 you drunk and drunk is basically the opposite of 22:31 soberness, and so, it's clouding your judgement, 22:34 clouding your understanding, whereas the gospel does the 22:36 opposite. 22:38 >>TY: I think we're gonna talk about this more later on when 22:39 we come to chapter 17 and 18, but I just wanna point out 22:42 that when it says that she made all nations drink of the 22:49 wine of the wrath of her fornication... 22:51 >>DAVID: There's an illegitimacy there. 22:53 >>TY: Yeah, there's an actual fornication taking place here 22:59 that is the mixing of church of state. 23:03 That's the fornication. 23:04 >>JEFFREY: There's religion and power. 23:05 >>TY: Religion and coercion. 23:07 Religion and the sword, this is bringing together two 23:11 things that should never be brought together in the same 23:14 sentence, let alone in the same system, where nations are 23:20 pressured to conform to a religious perspective, through 23:24 a political system. 23:26 >>DAVID: And that will be expressly, you know, 23:29 communicated, and more thoroughly communicated in 23:31 chapter 17. 23:32 >>TY: Okay, so what about the third angel's message, then? 23:35 What's going on in the third? 23:37 >>DAVID: Can I just pause there briefly and just say, 23:38 so, you've got that, because she has made all nations, but 23:43 the drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, I 23:45 guess we did get that. 23:46 Yeah, okay, I'm happy. 23:47 >>JAMES: Alright, do we wanna read the next angel's message 23:49 fast or slow? 23:51 >>TY: I say, okay, slow. 23:54 >>JAMES: Alright, take it. 23:56 >>DAVID: Take it away, Jeffrey. 23:57 >>JAMES: Surprise. 23:59 [Laughter] 24:01 I'm medium. 24:02 I'm only medium 'cause he's fast. 24:05 >>DAVID: I meant the eastern United States. 24:06 >>JAMES: I know you did. 24:08 I was going, wow, no one's ever told me that before. 24:09 >>TY: Okay, so third angel's message, Revelation 14:9-12. 24:17 >>JEFFREY: Then a third angel followed them, saying with a 24:21 loud voice, if any man worships the beast in his 24:24 image and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 24:28 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, 24:33 which is poured out full strength into the cup of his 24:36 indignation. 24:38 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the 24:42 presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the 24:44 Lamb. 24:45 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and 24:50 they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his 24:53 image and whoever receives the mark of his name. 24:58 Here is the patience of the saints. 25:01 Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the 25:03 faith of Jesus. 25:04 >>TY: That's quite a passage. 25:07 >>JAMES: It ended on a good note, but those are some hard 25:08 words in there. 25:10 My heart pitter patters a little, it pounds a little 25:12 harder as you read through these verses. 25:14 It's a solemn warning. 25:16 >>TY: There's no doubt about it. 25:18 So, this is taking us back to chapter 13. 25:23 We've done chapter 13, but we have here, in the third 25:28 angel's message, we have a reference to the beast and the 25:32 image of the beast, right? 25:34 If we recall, chapter 13, we have the sea beast and the 25:38 land beast. 25:40 The sea beast we identified as the medieval church, the papal 25:44 Roman system, okay, and the image to the beast is made by 25:48 the second beast, by the United States of America. 25:52 This is a way, this is the bible's way of telling us that 25:56 the United States of America will form a governmental 26:00 system that reflects the way the church operated during the 26:04 middle ages. 26:05 >>DAVID: And if that sounds totally crazy to our viewers, 26:08 just go back about three or four lessons before this and 26:12 listen to that, because we developed that. 26:14 We're not just throwing that out there. 26:15 There's a very good case to be made for the point that you 26:19 just, that you made. 26:21 There's an excellent biblical case. 26:22 >>TY: Even if it does sound crazy, you should do yourself 26:24 the favor of exploring the evidence for that. 26:29 So, we have the beast, we have the image to the beast, and 26:33 now, we have something called the mark of the beast, which 26:36 was also mentioned in chapter 13 in the last few verses, but 26:40 we didn't spend any time fleshing it out and defining it. 26:45 So, then we have the mark of the beast, and then, we have 26:47 this very hard language, basically, if anybody goes 26:51 along with that system, that individual will experience the 26:56 wrath of God, without mixture, that's heavy language. 27:01 Not diluted at all, full strength wrath. 27:05 That's heavy language. 27:07 So, I don't know who wants to take this, but I pick Jeffrey. 27:10 >>JAMES: I'll start. 27:12 >>JEFFREY: I'll say one thing and you just take it. 27:15 I just wanted to comment on we were saying, man, this is 27:18 really strong language, right? 27:20 But as we read that passage and we've alluded to the fact 27:25 that it comes from chapter 13 and in chapter 13, we said, 27:29 the issue is coercion, right? 27:31 So, I just wanna comment, the reason it's strong language is 27:36 because what's taking place is so anti-gospel that God is 27:41 employing the strongest possible language to 27:43 communicate, this is so detrimental to humanity 27:48 because it's anti-gospel. 27:49 What I mean by anti-gospel is, if it's coercion, the gospel's 27:52 all about freedom, so why is God so concerned about this? 27:57 It's because God is so passionate about freedom and 28:01 the dignity of the individual. 28:04 And that's why God's like, rahhh. 28:06 >>DAVID: We have to be careful, though. 28:08 That's true, but we have to remember, and I'm hanging onto 28:12 this from our first session. 28:15 Ty said two things. 28:16 Number on, in Revelation, evil escalates, implodes, and ends, 28:23 coupled with God does not out monster the monsters. 28:25 So, we have to be able to make sense of this passage in a way 28:28 that we don't have God at the end of the day, finally 28:30 saying, all that freedom stuff, all that love stuff, 28:33 all that mercy and forgiveness stuff, I'm really angry and 28:36 I'm gonna kick some butt. 28:37 That kind of a thing. 28:38 >>JEFFREY: Well, I wanna suggest that I think he is 28:40 really angry and wants to kick some butt. 28:42 >>TY: [Laughter] 28:43 >>JEFFREY: But, what I'm saying is, his anger and his 28:48 desire to kick some butt is in regard to sin and to evil only 28:52 because of what it threatens, and it threatens to erode this 28:57 beautiful thing called freedom and dignity in the human 29:01 being. 29:02 I think you can't dance around the fact that there's anger in 29:04 these verses. 29:05 I don't have a problem with a God who gets angry. 29:08 I wanna know that the God who gets angry is angry at the 29:11 right things and in the right way, which I know is exactly 29:15 what you're saying, so. 29:17 >>TY: Can I give an illustration that has helped 29:19 me understand how God is angry in the right way? 29:22 Just imagine that there's a knock at your door. 29:26 You open the door, a police officer is standing there. 29:29 The police officer says, I have some really bad news, 29:31 your son has been brutally murdered. 29:34 Now, in that moment, you feel something. 29:36 You feel a legitimate anger because where there is a 29:39 murder, there is a murderer. 29:42 So, immediately you know that somebody has taken the life of 29:45 your son and you are legitimately angry. 29:48 Do you want the police to apprehend the murderer? 29:50 Yes. 29:51 Do you want that person to be brought to justice? 29:53 Yes. 29:54 And then, with all that you're feeling right there, all that 29:57 anger, suddenly, the police officer says, but it's worse 30:01 than that because the person who murdered your son is your 30:04 daughter. 30:05 Now, psychologically, emotionally, your anger, is it 30:12 different at all? 30:13 Is there anything that's changed? 30:14 >>DAVID: Of course. 30:16 >>TY: Now, you're like, where is she? 30:18 You want, you still want her to be apprehended, right? 30:21 You still want her to be brought to justice, don't you? 30:23 >>JEFFREY: But is she okay? 30:24 >>TY: You're not hoping she skips the country. 30:25 You want them to catch her, right? 30:28 But now you wanna get with her and plead with her and 30:31 understand and you wanna bring her to repentance for what 30:35 she, you wanna understand, you want her to understand. 30:37 Now, your anger is not for a no-name freak, you know, in a 30:43 different neighborhood, some maniac. 30:46 I'm suggesting that there is no no-name freak for God. 30:50 >>DAVID: I was just gonna say that the strength of that 30:52 illustration is that you create a situation where you 30:55 are equally, emotionally invested in two people, one 30:59 violate, one violator. 31:01 And you preached that not long ago in my church, Ty, in the 31:03 church that I pastor in Australia, and I gotta tell 31:05 you something. 31:06 I'd heard you use the illustration before, but my 15 31:09 year old son was sitting next to me and for at least 2 weeks 31:13 after that, he regularly would say to me, Dad, that 31:18 illustration of Ty's, that is so amazing. 31:21 That is so helpful. 31:23 Dad, it deeply impressed the mind of my 15 year old. 31:27 He was going over it again and again, and for him, he said as 31:32 much to me and I could see, this was a window into the 31:34 gospel for him, and I wanna thank you for that. 31:36 It was a moment of tremendous clarity that spoke to the 31:40 heart of a 15 year old, because he could see, whoa, 31:42 this is a massive dilemma for God. 31:45 Anger tempered with mercy and love and equally emotionally 31:50 invested. 31:51 God is equally emotionally invested with everyone. 31:55 >>JEFFREY: I know we're parking here, but I just 31:56 wanted to say one more thing on this. 31:57 This whole idea of God's hatred, in Hebrews 1, verse 9, 32:02 it says, God, who loves righteousness and hates 32:06 iniquity. 32:07 So, there's this balance here and I always like to say God 32:10 loves righteousness in proportion to how much he 32:14 hates iniquity and vice versa. 32:16 >>TY: Well, he hates iniquity precisely because he loves you. 32:19 >>JEFFREY: That's right. 32:20 So, and there's this thing that, that which God hates the 32:23 most is inside that which he loves the most, which is us. 32:27 >>TY: Say that again, that's powerful. 32:28 >>JEFFREY: So, that which God hates the most is inside that 32:31 which God loves the most. 32:33 >>TY: Which is you and me. 32:34 >>JEFFREY: He hates the most is evil and sin, he loves the 32:36 most every sinner. 32:38 So, again, I have no problem with a God who gets angry and 32:42 who's wrathful. 32:43 >>TY: In fact, you would struggle if God didn't feel, 32:47 yeah. 32:49 >>JEFFREY: And so, Revelation 14 is telling us that's the 32:51 kind of God we're dealing with. 32:53 >>TY: If you're psychologically well-adjusted, 32:54 you do. 32:55 >>DAVID: When we turn on the news and we hear about this 32:56 guy who drives this truck into a crowd of people in Nice, 33:00 France, and 84 people are dead, we should be angry about 33:04 that. 33:05 We should be like, who, why? 33:08 >>JAMES: Are they gonna bring that guy to justice that 33:11 jumped in the truck and shot him? 33:12 Are those police officers gonna be brought to justice? 33:14 I mean, no question about it. 33:15 >>TY: But at the same time, because we're fallen and 33:18 dysfunctional, we're angry and our anger spills over into who 33:25 is that freak that did that? 33:27 Whereas the illustration that I'm giving causes you to back 33:30 up from that and say, but what if that was your son, what if 33:34 that was your, the guy who drove that truck has a mom. 33:37 He has a dad. 33:38 >>JEFFREY: And that's what God's dealing with with every 33:41 single human being, because wait, that's my son. 33:44 We can be distant and say, I don't even know the guy, 33:47 off with his head. 33:48 >>TY: But God's not distant. 33:48 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, but God's not distant. 33:50 >>DAVID: Just very quickly, just hold that thought, I 33:53 know, I know, I don't wanna lose this. 33:55 Andy Gullahorn, he's a singer/songwriter, Christian 33:59 singer/songwriter, and he wrote an amazing song called 34:02 That Guy. 34:03 And he paints this picture, you know the song, he paints 34:05 this picture about how, oh, there's this guy and he's 34:09 walking and as the song unfolds, he's strapped a, he's 34:13 got a suicide vest, he's strapped, he's gone into an 34:17 area, and then he paints this picture and he pulls a fast 34:20 one on you, Andy Gullahorn does, and he says, and God 34:22 loves that guy. 34:25 So, you're set up. 34:27 You're emotionally set up in the song to be ambivalent, 34:29 then to be angry, and then to be confronted with, oh, oh, 34:34 you're right. 34:35 Not that we love that guy. 34:36 Hey, listen, we don't like it, we're upset, we're angry, but 34:40 God is emotionally invested. 34:42 >>TY: Go, go, go. 34:44 >>JAMES: We gotta bring this all together and get back into 34:46 the biblical perspective of this, and I think there's a 34:49 perfect illustration of this in a story from the Old 34:52 Testament, because we were talking about how this 34:54 terminology must come from the bible, especially from the Old 34:57 Testament, the mark of the beast comes directly from the 35:01 book of Genesis. 35:02 It's in Genesis chapter 4, and all of the principles are there. 35:07 It's an old story, the story of Cain and Abel. 35:10 It's the very beginning of this principle of religious 35:12 persecution and forcing someone to worship a certain 35:14 way that's opposite of the way that God wants worship to be 35:17 done and in this context, we find Cain and Abel, and guess 35:21 what. 35:22 Cain, one of God's children, kills Abel, one of God's 35:26 children. 35:27 They're brothers. 35:28 It's a perfect illustration. 35:29 And then God says, this is what God says, and I just 35:31 wanted to find this in the context of the wrath of God 35:33 because there's this phrase, the wrath of the wine, the cup 35:38 of the wine of her fornication, and the cup, no, 35:41 excuse me. 35:43 >>TY: The cup of the wine of the wrath of his, no, the cup 35:46 of the wine of the... 35:47 >>JAMES: The wine of the wrath of her fornication, and then, 35:49 the phrase that God has is, the same shall drink of the 35:52 wine of the wrath of God. 35:54 The wine of the wrath of her fornication, the wine of the 35:56 wrath of God. 35:57 All of the words are the same, except for fornication and 35:59 God. 36:01 The wine of the wrath of God is when God, Romans chapter 1, 36:04 give us up to the fornication, to the wine of the wrath of 36:09 the fornication. 36:10 The wine of the wrath of God is simply God giving us up to 36:12 what we have chosen. 36:14 So, Cain kills Abel, okay? 36:18 And God says, Cain, you are gonna be a vagabond, you are 36:22 gonna be a stranger, you are gonna be a wanderer in the 36:25 earth, and he says, this is... 36:26 >>DAVID: He's already chosen that. 36:27 >>JAMES: Yes, and he says, but this is more than I can bear, 36:30 and God, being his Father, right? 36:32 He says, I'm gonna put a mark on you so that no one will 36:37 hurt you. 36:39 In other words, God's saying, I'm the one that's in charge 36:41 of all this. 36:42 I'm the one, we don't take vengeance. 36:44 We need to be, God is the one that's actually going to be in 36:47 charge. 36:49 So, what God says is, no man is gonna harm you 'cause I'm 36:51 gonna put a mark on you. 36:52 The mark of the beast, in the context of that story, is this 36:56 development of a picture of one of God's children killing 37:00 another one of God's children over a religious issue and God 37:03 giving them over to that which they have chosen and allowing 37:07 them to be marked for this destination that only God is 37:11 in charge of dealing with. 37:12 In other words, we aren't to take vengeance, we aren't the 37:15 ones that are to step in there and say, okay, we're gonna 37:17 give you more of this way, and we're gonna give you more of 37:19 that way, God, but God is saying, in the end, there's 37:21 this fruit, this harvest, we're getting to it, and in 37:23 that harvest, we're gonna see the full fruition of the 37:26 principles of the beast and the full fruition of the 37:28 principles of the gospel. 37:30 And they're gonna be marked for this. 37:33 I'm gonna let them be marked for this, and these guys are 37:35 gonna be sealed for this. 37:36 >>DAVID: There are several things that you said in there, 37:38 James, that were so helpful to me, one of which was, so Cain 37:42 is whinging and whining, that's an Australian word, 37:45 whinging, aw, I'm gonna be a stranger, I'm gonna be a 37:48 wanderer, I'm gonna be cut off, I'm gonna be lonely. 37:51 You just chose to kill somebody so you wouldn't have 37:55 to be around them. 37:56 He was given over, that's Romans 1, God gave them up, 37:58 gave them up, gave them up. 38:01 God gave Cain over to the consequences of a life that he 38:07 chose. 38:08 You wanna alienate yourself from...? 38:10 >>TY: I've never seen this before, this is a powerful 38:11 connection. 38:13 >>DAVID: You sever yourself from people to such a degree 38:15 that I've got to my way, so much so that you'll end 38:17 another's life, and now, you wanna have your cake and eat 38:20 it, too? 38:21 You want the rest of your human relationships to be 38:22 fine? 38:24 It doesn't work like that. 38:27 >>TY: Okay, we have to take a break. 38:29 Again, we don't want to, but we have to take a break and 38:32 then, we'll come back and continue. 38:34 [Music] 38:47 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary 38:49 that traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women 38:53 who encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 38:56 literature. 38:58 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to 39:03 Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 39:10 Once again, to receive your free copy of A Light in 39:14 Zambia, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 39:20 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 39:26 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 39:30 [Music] 39:35 >>TY: So, we've covered some amazing stuff here. 39:37 We cannot pretend that this is not a difficult passage. 39:41 It is difficult. 39:43 >>JEFFREY: It's super easy. 39:44 >>TY: It's a difficult passage, but James made some 39:49 sense out of this that is very helpful for me because now I'm 39:53 beginning to realize that when God is essentially saying, 39:58 those who receive the mark of the beast are coming under my 40:02 wrath, God is essentially saying to his people, don't 40:08 you deal with the problem of their coercion and 40:14 unfaithfulness to me, they're gonna be, I'm gonna deal with 40:18 them in the way that only I can deal with them. 40:21 They're going to be subject to my wrath and my wrath, God's 40:26 wrath, according to Romans 1 that James pointed out, is my 40:30 system is a just and fair system because people get what 40:36 they actually chose. 40:37 They get what they choose. 40:39 We're gonna overshoot the mark and lop off someone's head or 40:41 ear or something and Jesus is gonna have to repair the 40:44 damage that we do. 40:45 >>JAMES: Yeah, that's Peter, the story of Peter. 40:47 >>TY: But God is saying, essentially, vengeance is mine 40:50 because I'm the only one who has a vengeance system that is 40:53 consistent with justice. 40:56 I'm the one who can unfold this the way it needs to be 41:00 unfolded, so back off and leave it to me. 41:04 That's very helpful for me understanding the third 41:07 angel's message. 41:09 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, 'cause it's their choice, right? 41:11 Those who receive, in verse 9, it's, on their forehead or on 41:14 their hand. 41:16 So, either by shared ideology, or out of convenience. 41:20 >>TY: Or out of threat that, to save my hide, I'm gonna 41:24 comply with the system. 41:25 >>JEFFREY: So, either way, yeah. 41:27 >>JAMES: They're supporting the system. 41:28 >>DAVID: I think, too, that... 41:30 yeah, you're right, it's a tough passage of scripture, 41:34 particularly in light of the picture and portrait that's 41:37 been painted of God up to this point in light of the goodness 41:40 of God in Christ. 41:41 You know, you have this language, full strength into 41:44 the cup of his indignation. 41:46 Okay, I think we managed that, I think that was alright, I 41:49 think we handled that pretty well. 41:51 >>TY: But here's the thing that James didn't say and I 41:54 just think that it needs to be thrown in here, the language 41:56 of the full strength in the cup. 42:00 Well, that's Matthew 26. 42:02 It's Jesus who, so the cross, Gethsemane and the cross shows 42:08 us what the wrath of God looks like, how it unfolds, right? 42:12 It's, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 42:15 Which is consistent with what James was calling our 42:18 attention to, right? 42:19 >>JEFFREY: So, the cup of indignation that Jesus drank 42:21 is the cup that those in this passage drink only because 42:27 they refuse to accept the fact that Jesus already drank it 42:31 for them. 42:32 >>DAVID: When you read that in Matthew 26, Jesus gives the 42:36 cup, this is in the Last Supper, he says, drink you, 42:40 all of it. 42:41 I am very much of the opinion that that means Jesus is 42:44 saying, I don't think Jesus drank any of that cup. 42:47 I think that's why he says, I think they're like, hey you 42:51 have some, in the Lord's Supper... 42:53 >>JEFFREY: See, I think you were talking about Gethsemane. 42:55 >>DAVID: So, check this out, watch where I'm going, watch 42:56 where I'm going. 42:57 So, then, they're like, hey, you have some. 42:59 This isn't in the text, I think it's implied, I will not 43:01 drink this cup 'til I drink it new with you in the kingdom. 43:05 You drink this 'cause Jesus knows, in about 3 hours, he 43:09 has his own cup that he drinks. 43:12 They drink the cup of communion, connection, he goes 43:17 and drinks the cup of disconnection, wrath, 43:20 separation, isolation, forsakenness. 43:23 Okay, so, I get that. 43:25 This is tricky for me, though. 43:28 That next part. 43:29 >>JEFFREY: What next part? 43:30 >>DAVID: Well, the very, that's where I was going, it's 43:31 like, okay, I think we handled, there you go, he 43:33 shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence 43:37 of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 43:39 So, there's Jesus, there's the Lamb. 43:41 >>JEFFREY: But the Lamb, the fact that it's the Lamb that's 43:44 present. 43:45 >>JAMES: Let me ask you a question. 43:45 >>DAVID: No, no, no, I get that. 43:47 The word tormented, that's a tricky one. 43:49 >>JAMES: Well, let me ask you a question, can they be 43:51 tormented outside the presence of the Lamb and outside the 43:54 presence of angels? 43:56 Can they be tormented outside of the Lamb's presence? 43:59 What is it...? 44:01 >>DAVID: I think the Lamb's presence is the torment. 44:02 >>JAMES: Yes. 44:03 >>DAVID: Did we just finish one another's sentence? 44:05 >>TY: I think that has to be the case. 44:08 There's evidence for that. 44:09 >>JAMES: It's true in other places, Revelation 6. 44:11 >>TY: That's where I just went. 44:12 Go there and make that point, James. 44:15 >>JAMES: No, go ahead, Ty, you got it. 44:17 >>TY: This connection, well, in chapter 6, verses, were you 44:22 gonna 16 and 17, that's where I was at. 44:24 >>JAMES: Yep, 15, 16, 17. 44:26 >>TY: And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich 44:28 men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave, every 44:33 free man, hid themselves in the caves and the rocks of the 44:37 mountains and said to the mountains and rocks, fall on 44:40 us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne 44:45 and from the wrath of the Lamb for the great day of his wrath 44:49 has come and who will be able to stand? 44:51 They want to be hidden from the face of the Lamb. 44:57 This is describing the psychological torment that 45:03 comes from unresolved guilt in the presence of perfect 45:07 innocence. 45:08 I mean, think about this. 45:09 If his love, if his love for us doesn't go back to the 45:15 Matthew passage, chapter 21, if his love doesn't crush sin 45:20 in us, then that love is going to crush us out of existence. 45:27 >>DAVID: Unresolved guilt. 45:29 >>JEFFREY: Didn't we allude to the passages where the demons 45:33 and Jesus enters into the presence of the demons and 45:35 they're like, why have you come to torment us? 45:39 So, the very presence of Jesus is creating torment. 45:43 >>TY: So this can't be, when we're reading about torment, 45:45 you can go one of two ways with this. 45:47 You can either say that this passage is saying that God 45:50 will torture people in the sense that all of our 45:55 collective judgement, even with the Geneva convention 46:00 says that torture is wrong. 46:02 >>DAVID: There's no way that the Geneva Convention is more 46:04 righteous than God. 46:05 >>TY: The Geneva Convention ruled torture as wrong not 46:10 just because of the tortured, but because of the torturer. 46:14 It was saying the psychological effect that 46:17 torturing others has on the person doing the torturing, it 46:21 messes you up in your psychology to inflict torture 46:25 on someone. 46:27 This, the point that James is making is the presence issue. 46:31 They're in the presence of the Lamb and it's his very 46:33 presence that produces the psychological torment of 46:37 guilt. 46:38 >>DAVID: What do you think of this idea, the thing that 46:40 they're tormented with is not God, they're tormented with 46:47 fire and brimstone. 46:49 In other words, maybe I'm making too fine of a, okay, 46:52 let me read Isaiah 33 on this and tell me if you think this 46:54 is the right reach here. 46:56 >>JAMES: No, Isaiah 33 is the answer. 46:59 >>DAVID: Okays, so we're on the same page. 47:00 But Isaiah 33, I'll pick it up in verse 14. 47:06 The sinners in Zion are afraid, right? 47:10 That sounds like hide us from the wrath of the Lamb. 47:13 Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites. 47:15 Okay, hypocrisy. 47:17 Who among us will dwell with the devouring fire? 47:21 There we go. 47:22 Who among us will dwell with everlasting burnings? 47:26 >>TY: And right there, everybody's thinking, well, 47:27 the wicked, of course. 47:28 >>DAVID: The wicked, yeah, the wicked, thrown into the 47:31 torment, okay. 47:32 Verse 15, he who walks righteously and speaks 47:36 uprightly, he who despises the gain of oppressions, who 47:40 gestures with his hand, refusing bribes, who stops his 47:44 ears from the hearing of bloodshed and shuts his eyes 47:46 from seeing evil, he will dwell on high, his place will 47:50 be the defense of the fortress of rocks, bread will be given 47:53 him and his water will be shared. 47:55 >>TY: Verse 17, don't miss verse 17. 47:56 >>DAVID: Okay, I'm sorry, I was gonna. 47:57 Of course, I'm so sorry. 47:58 Your eyes will see the king in his beauty, they will see the 48:01 land that is very far off. 48:03 >>TY: Isn't that a powerful passage? 48:06 >>DAVID: So, it needs to be unpacked, it needs to be 48:07 explained. 48:08 I mean, it is fairly self-explanatory. 48:09 So, the idea here is that, the of Zion inside are afraid, 48:12 fearfulness has seized the hypocrites. 48:13 Who will dwell in the presence of everlasting burnings? 48:17 In both the Old and the New Testaments, God is a consuming 48:20 fire. 48:21 God's presence is a fiery, consuming entity to all things 48:29 that are contrary to his goodness and his character. 48:30 So, the question is, who could dwell with that? 48:34 Well, the wicked can't. 48:35 They're consumed by it. 48:36 But the righteous can. 48:38 So, this adds so much leverage, James, to the idea 48:41 that the source of torture is not God actively, 48:46 artificially, in a contrived manner, inflicting something 48:50 that's not native to the situation. 48:52 Oh, I think I had good articulation there. 48:54 It's something within the situation that God is 48:59 overseeing. 49:00 He's certainly superintending it, and what he's saying is, 49:02 and I love this language, these people have made their 49:06 decisions. 49:08 Their decisions have made them. 49:10 They have so identified with evil, so identified with 49:12 sin... 49:13 >>TY: That's CS Lewis right there. 49:15 >>DAVID: That's Lewis and Boyd, that's Boyd, and then, 49:16 God's like, well, the wages of sin is death and here we are. 49:22 Lewis, two kinds of people at the end of time, those that 49:26 say to God, thy will be done. 49:28 Those to whom God says, thy will be done. 49:31 So, it's native to the thing. 49:34 >>JAMES: Fire and brimstone. 49:35 Check this out, and this is just a new idea to me, but 49:37 it's amazing. 49:39 You look up the word brimstone, and it's probably 49:41 neuter from 2304, it means sulfur, you to go to 2304, it 49:46 means God-like, and it comes from 2316 as in divinity, you 49:51 go to 2316, the supreme divinity. 49:57 What? What? 49:59 >>DAVID: Just so we're clear... 50:00 >>JAMES: In other words, in other words, they're gonna be 50:05 tormented with the presence of God and the divinity of God. 50:09 >>DAVID: I'd have to see that again, you did lose me there, 50:10 but it made sense. 50:12 >>JAMES: Sulfur, the root word for sulfur goes back to the 50:15 divine supreme divinity, to God himself. 50:18 It's not, sulfur's not some organic material that is in 50:21 here, you know, that causes... 50:23 >>DAVID: Can you say that a little slower? 50:24 'Cause this could be a real breakthrough for me. 50:25 >>JAMES: The word sulfur, okay, you look up the word 50:27 sulfur, you go to your Strong's Concordance, that's 50:29 what I have here, and you look up the word, excuse me, fire 50:31 and brimstone, you look up the word brimstone, boom, you 50:33 click on that. 50:34 >>JEFFREY: You clicked on the wrong word. 50:36 >>JAMES: Did I? 50:37 >>JEFFREY: I think you did. 50:38 There you go. 50:39 >>JAMES: Okay, probably neuter of 2304, in its original 50:42 sense, a flashing, sulfur. 50:44 >>DAVID: Okay, so that's what happens. 50:45 When you light sulfur, it goes, it flashes. 50:47 >>JAMES: Okay, then 2304, you go to 2304, from 2316, 50:51 God-like. 50:52 Neuter, noun, divinity. 50:53 >>DAVID: 'Cause this is the word, I can actually see it 50:55 here, is it theios? 50:56 I can't tell if it's an L or an I, it's either thelos or 50:58 theios. 51:00 >>JAMES: T-H-E-I-O-S. 51:02 >>DAVID: So, theios. 51:03 Which sounds very much like... 51:04 >>JAMES: And then you go to the next word that comes up, 51:07 which is theios. 51:08 In other words, the word... 51:09 >>DAVID: So, go back just two, what is the word for 51:10 brimstone? 51:11 Just go back. 51:12 >>JAMES: Brimstone? 51:13 >>DAVID: Yeah, what is the actual word there? 51:15 >>JAMES: Theion. 51:16 >>DAVID: Theion. 51:17 >>JAMES: Which comes from theios, which comes from 51:18 theios. 51:20 Anyway, the point is... 51:22 >>DAVID: I never. 51:24 >>JAMES: Our God is a consuming fire. 51:26 Our God is a consuming fire. 51:27 The thing that torments them is his, now this is brought 51:30 out in... 51:31 >>DAVID: How did you know that? 51:32 >>TY: He pushed all those numbers. 51:34 [Laughter] 51:35 >>DAVID: Does that thing give other kinds of answers? 51:38 >>JAMES: This is bible study 101. 51:39 >>TY: I want you to show me that app, whatever you're 51:41 using there, 'cause I need to be able to do that. 51:43 >>JAMES: It's a really good app. 51:44 >>DAVID: Have you heard this before? 51:45 You knew this? 51:46 >>TY: No, not 'til this moment. 51:47 >>JAMES: This is bible study 101. 51:50 So, but this lines up with scripture. 51:53 Using a concordance is. 51:56 But this lines up with scripture, think this 51:58 through now. 51:59 Our God is a consuming fire. 52:00 >>DAVID: That makes total sense. 52:02 >>JAMES: Romans chapter 2, do you despise the goodness of 52:05 God, not knowing that... 52:06 >>DAVID: The goodness of God leads you to repentance? 52:09 >>JAMES: Or, are you treasuring up wrath against 52:11 the day of wrath and the righteous revelation... 52:14 >>TY: Of the judgement of God. 52:16 >>JAMES: Yes, it's his revelation. 52:17 Fire and brimstone. 52:18 >>DAVID: You're quoting Romans 2. 52:20 >>JAMES: Verses 4, 5, and 6, yeah. 52:23 Fire and brimstone is the revelation, that's why it's in 52:26 the presence of the angels, and that's why I asked you the 52:27 question, can this take place outside the presence? 52:31 Can this take place, just to be clear for our viewers? 52:34 >>DAVID: It cannot take place outside of God's presence. 52:36 Now, when you're asking that question. 52:37 'cause I was thrown off there, when you were like, can they 52:40 be tormented outside of God's presence? 52:42 I was like, well, he could leave the room. 52:44 I wasn't even understanding. 52:46 >>JAMES: Demons, why'd you come to torment us. 52:48 He leaves, torment leaves. 52:50 And is God tormenting evil? 52:52 No, he's revealing his goodness and it's a torment to them. 52:55 Unselfish love, every chord striking a note of unselfish 52:58 love in heaven is torture to selfishness, 53:02 to the selfish heart. 53:05 >>TY: Amazing. 53:05 We have 59 seconds left. 53:07 >>JAMES: Close it out, Ty. 53:09 >>TY: So, essentially what we've discovered so far is 53:13 that the third angel's message is an incredible revelation of 53:18 the fact that God is taking responsibility for dealing 53:23 with the lost and the wicked that we're not in a position 53:26 to deal with them in just and true ways, but God has just 53:29 and true ways, God has methods that are superior to our 53:35 fallen nature and God is saying, leave that part to me, 53:39 what you need to do is preach the gospel, live the gospel, 53:43 experience the gospel, and I will deal with those who 53:47 receive the mark of the beast. 53:49 >>JAMES: And keep the faith of Jesus. 53:51 The way we look at it. 53:52 >>DAVID: We will, we will. 53:53 >>TY: We'll come back to it. 53:54 We'll do it. 53:55 So, we're making an abrupt close here, but the excitement 53:59 level and the energy level's been high and the third 54:01 angel's message is clearer for me, personally, than it's ever 54:04 been. 54:05 >>DAVID: Hallelujah. 54:06 >>JAMES: Praise God. 54:06 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-16