[Music]
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[Music]
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>>TY: Revelation chapter 14
is a passage of scripture that
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gives what some bible students
have termed the final message
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of mercy to the world.
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I like the fact that they
call it final message of mercy,
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because there are some hard
edges to some of the message
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and some of it can come
down kinda hard, but the fact is
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that everything that is
communicated in first, second,
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and third angel's
message is in the context of the
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everlasting gospel, which
is the first bit of language in
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message number
one, back in verse 6.
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And I really appreciated
in the last session that James
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brought this idea forward that
everything that happens in the
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first angel's message
is under the umbrella.
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He went a step further
and said, everything that is
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mentioned in the first angel's
message is defined by the
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everlasting gospel.
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It can't be at cross
purposes with the gospel.
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I would like to extend that
to the second and third angel's
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message and suggest that all
of it is under the umbrella of
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the gospel.
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Yes, so let's read the
second angel's message.
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>>JAMES: Do we have
to read it fast or slow?
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If we have to read
it slow, I can read it.
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If we have to read it fast,
then we can have David read it.
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>>TY: At this point, we're not
in a hurry, so you can read it.
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>>JAMES: Alright.
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>>TY: So, the second angel's
message is in Revelation 14
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and verse 8.
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It's a single verse.
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>>JAMES: And there followed
another angel, saying, Babylon
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is fallen, that great city,
because she made all nations
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drink of the wine of the
wrath of her fornication.
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How was that for speed?
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>>TY: That was good.
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This is heavy.
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So, here are the
elements that we need to unfold.
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First of all, I think the
word followed is significant.
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>>JAMES: Key.
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>>TY: Isn't it?
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>>JAMES: Yes.
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>>TY: Okay
because, followed what?
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Followed the
first angel's message.
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So, do you guys see
this connection that the
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proclamation of the
everlasting gospel in verses 6
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and 7 precipitates
the fall of Babylon?
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So, there's a connection
between the fall of Babylon
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and the
proclamation of the gospel.
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>>JEFFREY: So, the events
happening in the second angel
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are in consequence to
the message of what was
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represented in the first angel.
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>>TY: I think so.
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I don't think
they're free-floating.
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>>JEFFREY: Which is awesome
because Babylon doesn't fall
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by God organizing a full-on
direct assault on it, right?
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It falls, sort of,
kinda like the result of.
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>>JAMES: But guys, this is
the entire theme of what we've
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been talking about in
the book of Revelation.
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God does not make a full-on
assault against Satan, he
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could've cast him to the
ground as easily as you cast a
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pebble to the
ground, but he does what?
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He exalts, he focuses on
his heart, his character, his
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love, his goodness, his
sacrificing, others-centered
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love, and it's that revelation
of the gospel of who he is
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that brings this,
an enemy of God down.
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So, this is the final
message, this is a summation of
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everything God has been
doing from the very inception of
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sin.
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So, obviously, it's
gonna follow that same track.
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>>JEFFREY: Is this some sort
of pattern, too, that's hinted
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at, not only is this how
God relates to evil, but maybe
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this is also how the church
and how God's people ought to
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relate to evil.
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This whole idea of not...
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>>JAMES: Can't be the opposite
of God, we gotta be, we follow
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him wherever he goes.
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>>JEFFREY: So, I think this
is interesting because a lot of
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Christians or people who
believe in God, I think we may
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have the tendency to relate to
the world and point fingers at
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things we don't like and
overly critical about the
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things we don't like all
the time, but in God's pattern,
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God exalts truth, exalts
love, exalts his character, his
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selflessness, and that is his
critique in regard to evil and
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darkness, right?
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So, it's a lot easier to
sit in judgement, to sit in a
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critical posture, it's a
lot harder to exemplify our
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contrast and let that be
the critique, you know what I'm
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saying?
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>>JAMES: I think that
point is confirmed also by, not
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something that's in the text,
but something that's missing
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from the text.
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In Revelation 14 and verse
6, it says, the first angel is
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preaching, or 7, it says, the
first angel is preaching with
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a loud voice.
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>>DAVID: I've had
the same perspective.
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>>JAMES: Same perspective,
so Revelation, I'm not finished
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with it, so Revelation
14:8, it says the second angel
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sounds, and it says, and there
followed another angel saying,
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Babylon has fallen.
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There's no loud voice.
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>>JEFFREY: The loudness is
with the proclamation of the
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gospel.
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>>JAMES: It's not the
enunciary, loud, in your face
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megaphone on the corner, all
sinners, you're going to hell
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unless you repent.
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It's basically the focus of
the everlasting gospel that's
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kind of bringing Babylon down
and it strives a consequence.
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People have seen it and
they're going, whoa, Babylon's
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just kind of falling, as
they see the everlasting gospel.
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>>TY: It's losing credibility.
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>>JAMES: It's
losing credibility.
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>>TY: So...
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>>JAMES: David was
gonna say something.
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>>DAVID: Well, I was just
gonna say that the loud voice
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returns with the third angle's
message, which we'll get to,
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so I don't wanna run ahead.
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>>TY: Okay,
that's the followed part.
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We've talked about, the second
angel's message follows the
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first and we're saying that
there's a connection between
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the fall of Babylon and
the proclamation of the gospel
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because there are two
systems being compared.
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I like the word that Jeffrey
used, there's a contrast.
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And Babylon falls, or loses
credibility by contrast to the
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gospel.
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What about Babylon, though?
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We haven't even defined,
this is a very cryptic term.
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Babylon has fallen?
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Is this the city over in...?
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>>DAVID: Well, this is gonna,
we will have an entire, the
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degree to which we will be
able to get into it in depth
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remains to be seen in
Revelations 17, but this
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description of the fall
of Babylon is picked up in
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greater detail,
with considerable depth,
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in 17 and 18.
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So, at this point, John
introduces it, it's almost
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like a repeat and enlarge
theme here in the sense that,
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we're gonna come back to that.
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Whether or not we'll be able
to in the context of this, you
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know, we're running out
of sessions, but Babylon is
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defined, as are all of the
terms in context in the book
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of Revelation
from the Old Testament.
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So, we have ancient
Babylon, Tower of Babel.
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Then, we have Neo Babylon,
under Nebuchadnezzar, and then
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we have end time Babylon.
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So, you're really dealing
with 3 different phases, maybe
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that's not the right
word, three different nations or
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powers or entities that
could be legitimately defined as
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Babylon, right?
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The Genesis 11, tower of
Babel Babylon, the Babylon under
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Nebuchadnezzar, and
then, end time Babylon.
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>>TY: But all of those phases
or manifestations of Babylon,
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they're identified as Babylon
because they have commonality.
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>>DAVID: There is commonality.
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>>TY: There are principles
that are in play in every
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phase of Babylon, in scripture.
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Go ahead.
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>>JEFFREY: Genesis 11, you
just pointed to the tower of
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Babel, well, what was the
central characteristic there?
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It was man trying to ascend,
right, to the heavens, a tower
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that will reach to the heavens.
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So, in other words, it's
man asserting himself and trying
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to approach God
in man's own terms.
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>>TY: Kind of a self-salvation.
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>>JEFFREY: That's it, and
then, you fast-forward to the
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Neo Babylon, as you
mentioned, and Nebuchadnezzar.
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Now, we're in Babylonia,
right, the empire of Babylon,
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and you have Nebuchadnezzar,
and in Daniel chapter 4, which
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we obviously haven't touched,
Nebuchadnezzar says, is this
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not great Babylon
which I have built?
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>>TY: For my glory, he says.
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>>JEFFREY: Nothing
has changed, as far as I'm
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concerned, because you're
seeing in Genesis 11 the same
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operating principle.
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The same thing in neo Babylon,
it's a manmade system that's
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being presented in the bible.
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And so, when you get to
this one here, same thing.
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John is reaching back to
the Old Testament and bringing
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into focus this entity called
Babylon because he wants to
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draw our attention to the
characteristics, which is this
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manmade system.
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>>JAMES: That's one
of the commonalities.
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>>TY: It's not just manmade,
though, it's manmade with a
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certain philosophical and
theological outlook, which you
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mentioned and that is
self-exaltation, human beings
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ascending to God versus the
gospel, the everlasting gospel
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teaches, God descending,
condescending in the person of
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Christ for our salvation.
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>>DAVID: There is a
point right here, don't lose
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anything that you were
thinking of, but I have this
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sermon that I have been
preaching for years going
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back, oh, I don't know, a
decade or more, where when God
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describes the building of
the altar, this is right at the
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end of Exodus chapter 20, he
says, hey, look, you can make
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an altar for me, but on
two conditions, these are
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basically like the two
stipulations with the building
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of the altar.
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Number one is you can't put a
cut stone on it, no hunestone.
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You can grab a stone from
the riverbed or from the, you
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know, the quarry, just
chuck it in there, but not a
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hunestone.
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Don't put your tool on it.
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>>TY: Don't apply
any human effort to it.
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>>DAVID: And then the
other one is, no steps.
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Don't build any steps up to
my altar, because that would be
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to undermine the central point
of the sacrifice of Christ,
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which is not that we ascend
to him in any way, but that
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descends to us, and what you
see in the tower of Babel it's
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like, architecturally, we
will ascend, which anticipates a
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theological
anti-Babylon, we will ascend.
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Something that I will do
will make a contribution to this
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whole God and man interface.
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>>TY: So, essentially, we're
saying that Babylon equals the
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salvation by works system.
00:10:37.33\00:10:40.17
>>JAMES: I really like that
definition, and you know why?
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I was in Pakistan doing
a seminar for a number of
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pastors and one of them
asked me, so who's Babylon?
00:10:44.67\00:10:47.98
We were done with the
session, who's Babylon?
00:10:47.98\00:10:49.68
And I said, to him, I said
in the context of Revelation 14,
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and verses 6 and 7, Babylon,
because it falls in the wake
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of the everlasting
gospel being preached.
00:11:00.36\00:11:02.26
Babylon is any system, any
religious belief in the world
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that is contrary to
the everlasting gospel.
00:11:07.40\00:11:10.77
>>TY: That's a
great way to say it.
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That's a very excellent summary.
00:11:12.33\00:11:14.17
>>JEFFREY: That
way it's not limited.
00:11:14.17\00:11:16.17
>>TY: The whole
world is a merit system.
00:11:18.74\00:11:19.94
>>JAMES: And if anything is
in harmony with the everlasting
00:11:19.94\00:11:22.41
gospel, it's good, and
if it isn't, get out of it.
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Let it fall, let it fall away.
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>>TY: I love that.
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That's very easy to wrap
your mind around so you're not
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pointing the finger,
necessarily at any one person
00:11:30.02\00:11:34.79
or system, it's any system,
and there are systems that
00:11:34.79\00:11:37.59
have been identified already
in Revelation as specifically
00:11:37.59\00:11:41.66
Babylonian in its theological
outlook, but basically, we're
00:11:41.66\00:11:45.37
saying that before Babylon
is manifested in any kind of
00:11:45.37\00:11:49.87
corporate system, religion,
or political system, it's in us.
00:11:49.87\00:11:55.54
We're all inclined to the
salvation by works paradigm.
00:11:55.54\00:11:59.55
We're all inclined to
self-salvation and Babylon is
00:11:59.55\00:12:04.19
the confusion regarding
the character of God that would
00:12:04.19\00:12:08.56
cause people to look upon
him as mean and austere and
00:12:08.56\00:12:12.59
distant and waiting for us
to get our act together to earn
00:12:12.59\00:12:15.50
his favor.
00:12:15.50\00:12:16.67
The gospel is flipping the
whole paradigm on its head and
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saying, you can't earn
God's favor because you
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already have it.
00:12:22.00\00:12:23.54
God is already good and
there's nothing you can do to
00:12:23.54\00:12:25.41
make him better than he is.
00:12:25.41\00:12:27.14
>>DAVID: Revelation 1,
who loved us and washed us.
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That's the order,
that order is essential.
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Loved, then washed, not
cleaned you up, get yourself
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together, now I love you.
00:12:37.49\00:12:39.45
>>TY: There's nothing you
can do to make God love you more
00:12:39.45\00:12:41.42
than he already does and
there's nothing you could do
00:12:41.42\00:12:44.19
to make God love
you less because...
00:12:44.19\00:12:46.76
>>DAVID: His love is not a
reflection of what's, I got
00:12:46.76\00:12:49.40
it, go ahead.
00:12:49.40\00:12:50.67
>>TY: I can't alter God.
00:12:50.67\00:12:54.50
If I could alter God, then
I'm the bigger person in the
00:12:54.50\00:12:56.84
relationship.
00:12:56.84\00:12:58.41
I'm the more significant
part of the relationship.
00:12:58.41\00:13:01.41
God is acting upon me and I'm
responsive, not the other way
00:13:01.41\00:13:06.48
around.
00:13:06.48\00:13:07.55
>>DAVID: He's the
initiator, you're the responder.
00:13:07.55\00:13:08.72
>>TY: Say that again.
00:13:08.72\00:13:09.78
>>DAVID: He's the
initiator, you're the responder.
00:13:09.78\00:13:10.89
>>TY: And I'm the responder.
00:13:10.89\00:13:11.99
We love him, 1 John 4:19,
because he first loved us.
00:13:11.99\00:13:16.02
>>JEFFREY: You know how
you were saying that it's a
00:13:16.02\00:13:18.03
principle that everything that
is based on selfishness will
00:13:18.03\00:13:20.26
eventually crash.
00:13:20.26\00:13:23.00
Remember you said that?
00:13:23.00\00:13:24.20
Well, here it says, Babylon
is fallen and we're identifying
00:13:24.20\00:13:26.97
that the principle behind
Babylon, before it takes an
00:13:26.97\00:13:30.07
institutional identity,
is what's in our nature.
00:13:30.07\00:13:33.98
Well, the fall of
Lucifer is the same thing.
00:13:33.98\00:13:36.28
It just came to my mind, the
word fallen, in Isaiah 14, how
00:13:36.28\00:13:39.68
you are fallen from heaven.
00:13:39.68\00:13:41.72
So, what caused Lucifer's fall
from heaven is the same thing
00:13:41.72\00:13:45.05
that, in principle,
that causes Babylon's fall.
00:13:45.05\00:13:48.36
It's the same thing.
00:13:48.36\00:13:51.46
So, really Babylon is
just, it's just the end time
00:13:51.46\00:13:55.43
manifestation of the very
principle that caused Lucifer
00:13:55.43\00:13:59.40
to fall from heaven.
00:13:59.40\00:14:00.64
>>TY: You know what's
interesting there, Jeffrey?
00:14:00.64\00:14:03.24
Is in Isaiah 14,
Babylon and the king of Babylon,
00:14:03.24\00:14:08.54
specifically, is
being addressed by the Lord.
00:14:08.54\00:14:10.98
>>JEFFREY: That's very powerful.
00:14:10.98\00:14:12.48
It just so happens
to be Babylon there.
00:14:12.48\00:14:14.52
>>TY: It's Babylon that's
being addressed in Isaiah 14
00:14:14.52\00:14:17.32
and then, in verse
12, it shifts to Lucifer.
00:14:17.32\00:14:20.26
There are verses in Daniel,
see if you guys, if this makes
00:14:20.26\00:14:27.40
any sense.
00:14:27.40\00:14:28.63
Daniel, of course, is dealing
with Babylon and then Babylon
00:14:28.63\00:14:32.17
manifested in the fourth
power, the Roman Empire is end
00:14:32.17\00:14:37.84
time Babylon.
00:14:37.84\00:14:39.21
That's a lot to say in
a sentence, but the fourth
00:14:39.21\00:14:41.81
power, but in the book
of Daniel, listen to these
00:14:41.81\00:14:44.91
descriptions.
00:14:44.91\00:14:47.25
It says that a stone cut
without hands smites or hits
00:14:47.25\00:14:52.59
the, chapter 2, yeah, the
fourth, down here at the feet
00:14:52.59\00:14:58.06
where you have the Roman
empire now divided into the
00:14:58.06\00:15:04.10
European nations and
specifically, the most
00:15:04.10\00:15:07.90
dominant among them,
the papal church state.
00:15:07.90\00:15:12.67
Okay, so it's interesting
that it says that that kingdom
00:15:12.67\00:15:18.31
falls by a stone
cut without hands.
00:15:18.31\00:15:21.92
In chapter 2 of Daniel,
I think we're familiar with
00:15:21.92\00:15:24.42
that, but look at this,
then, in chapter 8, and this
00:15:24.42\00:15:28.12
language in chapter 8 and
verse 25, it says, through his
00:15:28.12\00:15:32.43
cunning, he shall cause deceit
to prosper under his rule and he
00:15:32.43\00:15:36.80
shall exalt himself in his
heart, that's the principle of
00:15:36.80\00:15:40.10
self-exaltation that
we've been talking about.
00:15:40.10\00:15:42.97
He shall destroy many in their
prosperity, he shall even rise
00:15:42.97\00:15:47.24
up against the Prince of
princes, that's Jesus the
00:15:47.24\00:15:50.41
Messiah, but he shall be
broken without human means.
00:15:50.41\00:15:57.05
That's the fall of Babylon.
00:15:57.05\00:15:58.59
Babylon falls not by the
same principles of cunning and
00:15:58.59\00:16:02.72
deceit and self-exaltation,
Babylon falls by the
00:16:02.72\00:16:05.93
proclamation of the gospel.
00:16:05.93\00:16:07.23
And then, there's a parallel
text talking about the same
00:16:07.23\00:16:09.33
power again in Daniel chapter
11, verse 44, it says of this
00:16:09.33\00:16:13.97
final manifestation of
Babylon, it says, but news.
00:16:13.97\00:16:19.17
>>JAMES: Tidings.
00:16:19.17\00:16:20.14
>>TY: Is it
tidings in the King James?
00:16:20.14\00:16:21.88
Tidings or news from the east
and the north will trouble him.
00:16:21.88\00:16:26.41
Trouble Babylon, therefore,
he shall go out with great fury
00:16:26.41\00:16:31.49
to destroy and annihilate many.
00:16:31.49\00:16:33.66
These are parallel
passages is what I'm saying.
00:16:33.66\00:16:36.06
Yeah.
00:16:36.06\00:16:37.26
None will help him.
00:16:37.26\00:16:38.49
Will come to his end by what?
00:16:38.49\00:16:40.06
By news.
00:16:40.06\00:16:41.13
>>JAMES: Yeah, by news.
00:16:41.13\00:16:42.50
>>TY: By tidings?
00:16:42.50\00:16:44.53
>>JEFFREY:
Something being proclaimed.
00:16:44.53\00:16:45.93
>>TY: Something being
proclaimed brings Babylon to
00:16:45.93\00:16:47.77
its knees, without hands?
00:16:47.77\00:16:50.54
>>JAMES: The
stone, Jesus is the stone?
00:16:50.54\00:16:52.27
>>TY: Yeah.
00:16:52.27\00:16:53.07
So the gospel
brings Babylon down.
00:16:53.07\00:16:57.98
Ideologically, philosophically,
00:16:57.98\00:16:59.85
theologically, in
our minds, in our hearts.
00:16:59.85\00:17:02.72
And then, it brings Babylon
down, that fall spreads and it
00:17:02.72\00:17:07.66
brings Babylon down
institutionally, corporately.
00:17:07.66\00:17:11.83
The whole system crumbles
under the beautiful weight of
00:17:11.83\00:17:16.67
the gospel because people
begin to open their eyes and
00:17:16.67\00:17:19.07
say, wait a minute,
this system is contrary to
00:17:19.07\00:17:24.47
everything my heart and
soul needs, but here in Jesus,
00:17:24.47\00:17:29.01
there is a revelation of
God that is truly good news.
00:17:29.01\00:17:33.68
>>JAMES: You know, it's
interesting because Christ
00:17:33.68\00:17:35.15
makes that application in the
gospels, and I can't remember
00:17:35.15\00:17:37.82
where, very personal
individual, when he says,
00:17:37.82\00:17:40.69
whoever falls on this stone
shall be broken, but whoever
00:17:40.69\00:17:45.56
this stone falls upon, it'll
grind him to powder, and it's
00:17:45.56\00:17:48.40
a very individual,
personal thing there.
00:17:48.40\00:17:50.63
>>DAVID: Yeah, the idea
of brokenness, personal,
00:17:50.63\00:17:52.40
individual
brokenness at the cross.
00:17:52.40\00:17:56.50
>>TY: Okay, pause button
right there because it's time to
00:17:56.50\00:17:58.71
take our break, but when
we come back, yeah, we'll come
00:17:58.71\00:18:01.71
back and we'll continue
looking at the fall of Babylon
00:18:01.71\00:18:04.61
and then, specifically,
the third angel's message.
00:18:04.61\00:18:07.62
>>JAMES: Yeah.
00:18:07.62\00:18:08.85
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[Music]
00:20:10.41\00:20:16.54
>>TY: I really enjoyed
that discussion of the second
00:20:16.54\00:20:18.71
angel's message and the fall
of Babylon because I think we
00:20:18.71\00:20:22.08
forged a very
important connection between the
00:20:22.08\00:20:25.52
proclamation of the
gospel and the fall of Babylon.
00:20:25.52\00:20:28.72
We also made a very important
connection that it's not just
00:20:28.72\00:20:32.89
institutional Babylon, but the
fact is that before Babylon is
00:20:32.89\00:20:37.00
manifested in any kind of
corporate institution, Babylon
00:20:37.00\00:20:41.94
is in us.
00:20:41.94\00:20:43.10
Babylonianism, if that's a
word, is the religion of human
00:20:43.10\00:20:48.01
nature.
00:20:48.01\00:20:49.34
It's in us.
00:20:49.34\00:20:50.51
And we need to come out of
Babylon, but Babylon needs to
00:20:50.51\00:20:54.75
get out of us.
00:20:54.75\00:20:56.25
And so, those were
vital points that we made.
00:20:56.25\00:20:58.25
>>DAVID: It's funny, I
was gonna, years ago, not long
00:20:58.25\00:21:00.46
after I was converted,
probably 5 years after I was
00:21:00.46\00:21:02.62
converted, I had this idea for
a book that I was gonna write
00:21:02.62\00:21:04.66
called Babylon,
Come Out of My People.
00:21:04.66\00:21:07.23
>>TY: Really?
00:21:07.23\00:21:08.63
>>JAMES: That's
good, I like that.
00:21:08.63\00:21:10.13
>>DAVID: I thought it
was cool, because you had the
00:21:10.13\00:21:11.77
whole come out of my, I
thought it was interesting.
00:21:11.77\00:21:13.50
Anybody can take
that if they wanna.
00:21:13.50\00:21:15.70
The book is not,
it's 10 years on.
00:21:15.70\00:21:17.91
>>JAMES: Just to touch
on this, we didn't miss this
00:21:17.91\00:21:19.57
phrase, but I just wanna
touch on it in follow up to what
00:21:19.57\00:21:21.81
David said, for, Babylon
has fallen, that great city,
00:21:21.81\00:21:25.68
because she made all nations
drink of the wine of the wrath
00:21:25.68\00:21:28.48
of her fornication.
00:21:28.48\00:21:29.62
And Jesus says in Matthew,
yeah, Jesus says in Matthew
00:21:29.62\00:21:34.36
chapter 26, he takes this,
the last Supper, he's with the
00:21:34.36\00:21:37.43
disciples, and he's breaking
the bread and the wine and
00:21:37.43\00:21:40.30
when he gets to the wine, he
says, he takes the cup, so you
00:21:40.30\00:21:44.17
got the cup in Revelation
14, takes the cup, he gives
00:21:44.17\00:21:47.34
thanks, he gives it to them,
he says, drink ye all of it,
00:21:47.34\00:21:50.67
for this is my blood, and
it's the wine, the grape juice,
00:21:50.67\00:21:54.51
this is my blood, which is
of the New Testament, which is
00:21:54.51\00:21:57.01
shed for many for
the remission of sins.
00:21:57.01\00:21:59.41
There's a counterfeit gospel.
00:21:59.41\00:22:01.52
We've talked about that.
00:22:01.52\00:22:02.68
There's a counterfeit gospel
that Babylon is proclaiming.
00:22:02.68\00:22:06.09
A counterfeit wine, a
counterfeit salvation, a
00:22:06.09\00:22:07.49
counterfeit New
Testament, that leads...
00:22:07.49\00:22:10.33
>>DAVID: When you said
counterfeit right there, you
00:22:10.33\00:22:11.26
sound really eastern.
00:22:11.26\00:22:12.23
>>JAMES: Do I?
00:22:12.23\00:22:13.40
That leads to fornication
or spiritual unfaithfulness to
00:22:13.40\00:22:19.17
God.
00:22:19.17\00:22:20.30
Yeah, and it's in contrast
with the everlasting gospel.
00:22:20.30\00:22:22.54
She's made people drink of
this salvation that is not in
00:22:22.54\00:22:25.47
harmony with the
everlasting gospel.
00:22:25.47\00:22:27.24
>>JEFFREY: So, they're getting
drunk off, so that wine makes
00:22:27.24\00:22:29.24
you drunk and drunk is
basically the opposite of
00:22:29.24\00:22:31.28
soberness, and so, it's
clouding your judgement,
00:22:31.28\00:22:34.72
clouding your understanding,
whereas the gospel does the
00:22:34.72\00:22:36.82
opposite.
00:22:36.82\00:22:38.05
>>TY: I think we're gonna talk
about this more later on when
00:22:38.05\00:22:39.59
we come to chapter 17 and
18, but I just wanna point out
00:22:39.59\00:22:42.89
that when it says that she
made all nations drink of the
00:22:42.89\00:22:49.80
wine of the wrath
of her fornication...
00:22:49.80\00:22:51.90
>>DAVID: There's
an illegitimacy there.
00:22:51.90\00:22:53.13
>>TY: Yeah, there's an actual
fornication taking place here
00:22:53.13\00:22:59.34
that is the mixing
of church of state.
00:22:59.34\00:23:03.61
That's the fornication.
00:23:03.61\00:23:04.85
>>JEFFREY: There's
religion and power.
00:23:04.85\00:23:05.85
>>TY: Religion and coercion.
00:23:05.85\00:23:07.92
Religion and the sword,
this is bringing together two
00:23:07.92\00:23:11.39
things that should never be
brought together in the same
00:23:11.39\00:23:14.79
sentence, let alone in the
same system, where nations are
00:23:14.79\00:23:20.60
pressured to conform to a
religious perspective, through
00:23:20.60\00:23:24.70
a political system.
00:23:24.70\00:23:26.23
>>DAVID: And that will
be expressly, you know,
00:23:26.23\00:23:29.60
communicated, and more
thoroughly communicated in
00:23:29.60\00:23:31.37
chapter 17.
00:23:31.37\00:23:32.87
>>TY: Okay, so what about
the third angel's message, then?
00:23:32.87\00:23:35.28
What's going on in the third?
00:23:35.28\00:23:37.11
>>DAVID: Can I just pause
there briefly and just say,
00:23:37.11\00:23:38.88
so, you've got that, because
she has made all nations, but
00:23:38.88\00:23:43.12
the drink of the wine of
the wrath of her fornication, I
00:23:43.12\00:23:45.49
guess we did get that.
00:23:45.49\00:23:46.45
Yeah, okay, I'm happy.
00:23:46.45\00:23:47.69
>>JAMES: Alright, do we wanna
read the next angel's message
00:23:47.69\00:23:49.46
fast or slow?
00:23:49.46\00:23:51.03
>>TY: I say, okay, slow.
00:23:51.03\00:23:54.40
>>JAMES: Alright, take it.
00:23:54.40\00:23:56.10
>>DAVID: Take it away, Jeffrey.
00:23:56.10\00:23:57.60
>>JAMES: Surprise.
00:23:57.60\00:23:59.63
[Laughter]
00:23:59.63\00:24:01.47
I'm medium.
00:24:01.47\00:24:02.60
I'm only medium
'cause he's fast.
00:24:02.60\00:24:05.37
>>DAVID: I meant the
eastern United States.
00:24:05.37\00:24:06.91
>>JAMES: I know you did.
00:24:06.91\00:24:08.01
I was going, wow, no
one's ever told me that before.
00:24:08.01\00:24:09.71
>>TY: Okay, so third angel's
message, Revelation 14:9-12.
00:24:09.71\00:24:17.29
>>JEFFREY: Then a third angel
followed them, saying with a
00:24:17.29\00:24:21.12
loud voice, if any man
worships the beast in his
00:24:21.12\00:24:24.49
image and receives his mark
on his forehead or on his hand,
00:24:24.49\00:24:28.73
he himself shall also drink
of the wine of the wrath of God,
00:24:28.73\00:24:33.90
which is poured out full
strength into the cup of his
00:24:33.90\00:24:36.87
indignation.
00:24:36.87\00:24:38.57
He shall be tormented
with fire and brimstone in the
00:24:38.57\00:24:42.01
presence of the holy angels
and in the presence of the
00:24:42.01\00:24:44.51
Lamb.
00:24:44.51\00:24:45.75
And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever, and
00:24:45.75\00:24:50.29
they have no rest day or night
who worship the beast and his
00:24:50.29\00:24:53.99
image and whoever
receives the mark of his name.
00:24:53.99\00:24:58.19
Here is the
patience of the saints.
00:24:58.19\00:25:01.10
Here are those who keep
the commandments of God and the
00:25:01.10\00:25:03.20
faith of Jesus.
00:25:03.20\00:25:04.90
>>TY: That's quite a passage.
00:25:04.90\00:25:07.07
>>JAMES: It ended on a good
note, but those are some hard
00:25:07.07\00:25:08.90
words in there.
00:25:08.90\00:25:10.11
My heart pitter patters a
little, it pounds a little
00:25:10.11\00:25:12.24
harder as you read
through these verses.
00:25:12.24\00:25:14.41
It's a solemn warning.
00:25:14.41\00:25:16.61
>>TY: There's no doubt about it.
00:25:16.61\00:25:18.01
So, this is taking
us back to chapter 13.
00:25:18.01\00:25:23.99
We've done chapter 13,
but we have here, in the third
00:25:23.99\00:25:28.09
angel's message, we have a
reference to the beast and the
00:25:28.09\00:25:32.06
image of the beast, right?
00:25:32.06\00:25:34.13
If we recall, chapter 13,
we have the sea beast and the
00:25:34.13\00:25:38.77
land beast.
00:25:38.77\00:25:40.00
The sea beast we identified as
the medieval church, the papal
00:25:40.00\00:25:44.34
Roman system, okay, and the
image to the beast is made by
00:25:44.34\00:25:48.44
the second beast, by the
United States of America.
00:25:48.44\00:25:52.31
This is a way, this is the
bible's way of telling us that
00:25:52.31\00:25:56.45
the United States of
America will form a governmental
00:25:56.45\00:26:00.49
system that reflects the way
the church operated during the
00:26:00.49\00:26:04.66
middle ages.
00:26:04.66\00:26:05.86
>>DAVID: And if that sounds
totally crazy to our viewers,
00:26:05.86\00:26:08.16
just go back about three or
four lessons before this and
00:26:08.16\00:26:12.43
listen to that,
because we developed that.
00:26:12.43\00:26:14.17
We're not just
throwing that out there.
00:26:14.17\00:26:15.77
There's a very good case to
be made for the point that you
00:26:15.77\00:26:19.57
just, that you made.
00:26:19.57\00:26:21.34
There's an
excellent biblical case.
00:26:21.34\00:26:22.64
>>TY: Even if it does sound
crazy, you should do yourself
00:26:22.64\00:26:24.48
the favor of
exploring the evidence for that.
00:26:24.48\00:26:29.05
So, we have the beast, we
have the image to the beast, and
00:26:29.05\00:26:33.32
now, we have something called
the mark of the beast, which
00:26:33.32\00:26:36.69
was also mentioned in chapter
13 in the last few verses, but
00:26:36.69\00:26:40.40
we didn't spend any time
fleshing it out and defining it.
00:26:40.40\00:26:45.13
So, then we have the mark
of the beast, and then, we have
00:26:45.13\00:26:47.47
this very hard language,
basically, if anybody goes
00:26:47.47\00:26:51.11
along with that system, that
individual will experience the
00:26:51.11\00:26:56.14
wrath of God, without
mixture, that's heavy language.
00:26:56.14\00:27:01.42
Not diluted at all,
full strength wrath.
00:27:01.42\00:27:05.39
That's heavy language.
00:27:05.39\00:27:07.32
So, I don't know who wants to
take this, but I pick Jeffrey.
00:27:07.32\00:27:10.73
>>JAMES: I'll start.
00:27:10.73\00:27:12.83
>>JEFFREY: I'll say one
thing and you just take it.
00:27:12.83\00:27:15.70
I just wanted to comment on
we were saying, man, this is
00:27:15.70\00:27:18.67
really strong language, right?
00:27:18.67\00:27:20.64
But as we read that passage
and we've alluded to the fact
00:27:20.64\00:27:25.51
that it comes from chapter
13 and in chapter 13, we said,
00:27:25.51\00:27:29.34
the issue is coercion, right?
00:27:29.34\00:27:31.98
So, I just wanna comment, the
reason it's strong language is
00:27:31.98\00:27:36.82
because what's taking place
is so anti-gospel that God is
00:27:36.82\00:27:41.26
employing the
strongest possible language to
00:27:41.26\00:27:43.53
communicate, this is
so detrimental to humanity
00:27:43.53\00:27:48.20
because it's anti-gospel.
00:27:48.20\00:27:49.43
What I mean by anti-gospel is,
if it's coercion, the gospel's
00:27:49.43\00:27:52.77
all about freedom, so why
is God so concerned about this?
00:27:52.77\00:27:57.51
It's because God is so
passionate about freedom and
00:27:57.51\00:28:01.71
the dignity of the individual.
00:28:01.71\00:28:04.08
And that's why
God's like, rahhh.
00:28:04.08\00:28:06.65
>>DAVID: We have
to be careful, though.
00:28:06.65\00:28:08.28
That's true, but we have to
remember, and I'm hanging onto
00:28:08.28\00:28:12.75
this from our first session.
00:28:12.75\00:28:15.02
Ty said two things.
00:28:15.02\00:28:16.66
Number on, in Revelation, evil
escalates, implodes, and ends,
00:28:16.66\00:28:23.23
coupled with God does
not out monster the monsters.
00:28:23.23\00:28:25.17
So, we have to be able to make
sense of this passage in a way
00:28:25.17\00:28:28.90
that we don't have God at
the end of the day, finally
00:28:28.90\00:28:30.91
saying, all that freedom
stuff, all that love stuff,
00:28:30.91\00:28:33.44
all that mercy and forgiveness
stuff, I'm really angry and
00:28:33.44\00:28:36.38
I'm gonna kick some butt.
00:28:36.38\00:28:37.85
That kind of a thing.
00:28:37.85\00:28:38.88
>>JEFFREY: Well, I wanna
suggest that I think he is
00:28:38.88\00:28:40.52
really angry and
wants to kick some butt.
00:28:40.52\00:28:42.68
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:28:42.68\00:28:43.85
>>JEFFREY: But, what I'm
saying is, his anger and his
00:28:43.85\00:28:48.02
desire to kick some butt is in
regard to sin and to evil only
00:28:48.02\00:28:52.56
because of what it threatens,
and it threatens to erode this
00:28:52.56\00:28:57.20
beautiful thing called
freedom and dignity in the human
00:28:57.20\00:29:01.10
being.
00:29:01.10\00:29:02.34
I think you can't dance around
the fact that there's anger in
00:29:02.34\00:29:04.54
these verses.
00:29:04.54\00:29:05.84
I don't have a problem
with a God who gets angry.
00:29:05.84\00:29:08.44
I wanna know that the God
who gets angry is angry at the
00:29:08.44\00:29:11.45
right things and in the right
way, which I know is exactly
00:29:11.45\00:29:15.45
what you're saying, so.
00:29:15.45\00:29:17.05
>>TY: Can I give an
illustration that has helped
00:29:17.05\00:29:19.45
me understand how God
is angry in the right way?
00:29:19.45\00:29:22.26
Just imagine that
there's a knock at your door.
00:29:22.26\00:29:26.56
You open the door, a police
officer is standing there.
00:29:26.56\00:29:29.50
The police officer says,
I have some really bad news,
00:29:29.50\00:29:31.87
your son has been
brutally murdered.
00:29:31.87\00:29:34.20
Now, in that
moment, you feel something.
00:29:34.20\00:29:36.77
You feel a legitimate
anger because where there is a
00:29:36.77\00:29:39.87
murder, there is a murderer.
00:29:39.87\00:29:42.94
So, immediately you know that
somebody has taken the life of
00:29:42.94\00:29:45.71
your son and you
are legitimately angry.
00:29:45.71\00:29:48.12
Do you want the police
to apprehend the murderer?
00:29:48.12\00:29:50.59
Yes.
00:29:50.59\00:29:51.65
Do you want that person
to be brought to justice?
00:29:51.65\00:29:53.56
Yes.
00:29:53.56\00:29:54.79
And then, with all that you're
feeling right there, all that
00:29:54.79\00:29:57.79
anger, suddenly, the police
officer says, but it's worse
00:29:57.79\00:30:01.43
than that because the person
who murdered your son is your
00:30:01.43\00:30:04.40
daughter.
00:30:04.40\00:30:05.97
Now, psychologically,
emotionally, your anger, is it
00:30:05.97\00:30:12.21
different at all?
00:30:12.21\00:30:13.34
Is there
anything that's changed?
00:30:13.34\00:30:14.74
>>DAVID: Of course.
00:30:14.74\00:30:16.04
>>TY: Now, you're
like, where is she?
00:30:16.04\00:30:18.08
You want, you still want
her to be apprehended, right?
00:30:18.08\00:30:21.92
You still want her to be
brought to justice, don't you?
00:30:21.92\00:30:23.25
>>JEFFREY: But is she okay?
00:30:23.25\00:30:24.25
>>TY: You're not
hoping she skips the country.
00:30:24.25\00:30:25.92
You want them to
catch her, right?
00:30:25.92\00:30:28.06
But now you wanna get
with her and plead with her and
00:30:28.06\00:30:31.83
understand and you wanna
bring her to repentance for what
00:30:31.83\00:30:35.60
she, you wanna understand,
you want her to understand.
00:30:35.60\00:30:37.90
Now, your anger is not for a
no-name freak, you know, in a
00:30:37.90\00:30:43.44
different
neighborhood, some maniac.
00:30:43.44\00:30:46.81
I'm suggesting that there
is no no-name freak for God.
00:30:46.81\00:30:50.71
>>DAVID: I was just gonna
say that the strength of that
00:30:50.71\00:30:52.45
illustration is that you
create a situation where you
00:30:52.45\00:30:55.95
are equally, emotionally
invested in two people, one
00:30:55.95\00:30:59.49
violate, one violator.
00:30:59.49\00:31:01.29
And you preached that not long
ago in my church, Ty, in the
00:31:01.29\00:31:03.89
church that I pastor in
Australia, and I gotta tell
00:31:03.89\00:31:05.73
you something.
00:31:05.73\00:31:06.83
I'd heard you use the
illustration before, but my 15
00:31:06.83\00:31:09.56
year old son was sitting next
to me and for at least 2 weeks
00:31:09.56\00:31:13.00
after that, he regularly
would say to me, Dad, that
00:31:13.00\00:31:18.21
illustration of
Ty's, that is so amazing.
00:31:18.21\00:31:21.81
That is so helpful.
00:31:21.81\00:31:23.61
Dad, it deeply impressed
the mind of my 15 year old.
00:31:23.61\00:31:27.25
He was going over it again and
again, and for him, he said as
00:31:27.25\00:31:32.12
much to me and I could
see, this was a window into the
00:31:32.12\00:31:34.49
gospel for him, and I
wanna thank you for that.
00:31:34.49\00:31:36.86
It was a moment of tremendous
clarity that spoke to the
00:31:36.86\00:31:40.43
heart of a 15 year old,
because he could see, whoa,
00:31:40.43\00:31:42.56
this is a
massive dilemma for God.
00:31:42.56\00:31:45.43
Anger tempered with mercy
and love and equally emotionally
00:31:45.43\00:31:50.31
invested.
00:31:50.31\00:31:51.34
God is equally emotionally
invested with everyone.
00:31:51.34\00:31:55.28
>>JEFFREY: I know we're
parking here, but I just
00:31:55.28\00:31:56.44
wanted to say one
more thing on this.
00:31:56.44\00:31:57.81
This whole idea of God's
hatred, in Hebrews 1, verse 9,
00:31:57.81\00:32:02.22
it says, God, who
loves righteousness and hates
00:32:02.22\00:32:06.29
iniquity.
00:32:06.29\00:32:07.49
So, there's this balance here
and I always like to say God
00:32:07.49\00:32:10.59
loves righteousness in
proportion to how much he
00:32:10.59\00:32:14.10
hates iniquity and vice versa.
00:32:14.10\00:32:16.26
>>TY: Well, he hates iniquity
precisely because he loves you.
00:32:16.26\00:32:19.27
>>JEFFREY: That's right.
00:32:19.27\00:32:20.44
So, and there's this thing
that, that which God hates the
00:32:20.44\00:32:23.51
most is inside that which
he loves the most, which is us.
00:32:23.51\00:32:27.71
>>TY: Say that
again, that's powerful.
00:32:27.71\00:32:28.94
>>JEFFREY: So, that which God
hates the most is inside that
00:32:28.94\00:32:31.75
which God loves the most.
00:32:31.75\00:32:33.55
>>TY: Which is you and me.
00:32:33.55\00:32:34.75
>>JEFFREY: He hates the most
is evil and sin, he loves the
00:32:34.75\00:32:36.65
most every sinner.
00:32:36.65\00:32:38.45
So, again, I have no problem
with a God who gets angry and
00:32:38.45\00:32:42.19
who's wrathful.
00:32:42.19\00:32:43.69
>>TY: In fact, you would
struggle if God didn't feel,
00:32:43.69\00:32:47.66
yeah.
00:32:47.66\00:32:49.03
>>JEFFREY: And so, Revelation
14 is telling us that's the
00:32:49.03\00:32:51.10
kind of God we're dealing with.
00:32:51.10\00:32:53.47
>>TY: If you're
psychologically well-adjusted,
00:32:53.47\00:32:54.20
you do.
00:32:54.20\00:32:55.37
>>DAVID: When we turn on
the news and we hear about this
00:32:55.37\00:32:56.54
guy who drives this truck
into a crowd of people in Nice,
00:32:56.54\00:33:00.54
France, and 84 people are
dead, we should be angry about
00:33:00.54\00:33:04.11
that.
00:33:04.11\00:33:05.31
We should be like, who, why?
00:33:05.31\00:33:08.82
>>JAMES: Are they gonna
bring that guy to justice that
00:33:08.82\00:33:11.35
jumped in the
truck and shot him?
00:33:11.35\00:33:12.49
Are those police officers
gonna be brought to justice?
00:33:12.49\00:33:14.19
I mean, no question about it.
00:33:14.19\00:33:15.26
>>TY: But at the same
time, because we're fallen and
00:33:15.26\00:33:18.43
dysfunctional, we're angry and
our anger spills over into who
00:33:18.43\00:33:25.30
is that freak that did that?
00:33:25.30\00:33:27.37
Whereas the illustration that
I'm giving causes you to back
00:33:27.37\00:33:30.94
up from that and say, but what
if that was your son, what if
00:33:30.94\00:33:34.61
that was your, the guy who
drove that truck has a mom.
00:33:34.61\00:33:37.68
He has a dad.
00:33:37.68\00:33:38.98
>>JEFFREY: And that's what
God's dealing with with every
00:33:38.98\00:33:41.12
single human being,
because wait, that's my son.
00:33:41.12\00:33:44.69
We can be distant and
say, I don't even know the guy,
00:33:44.69\00:33:47.16
off with his head.
00:33:47.16\00:33:48.16
>>TY: But God's not distant.
00:33:48.16\00:33:48.99
>>JEFFREY: Yeah,
but God's not distant.
00:33:48.99\00:33:50.46
>>DAVID: Just very quickly,
just hold that thought, I
00:33:50.46\00:33:53.19
know, I know, I
don't wanna lose this.
00:33:53.19\00:33:55.86
Andy Gullahorn, he's a
singer/songwriter, Christian
00:33:55.86\00:33:59.13
singer/songwriter, and he
wrote an amazing song called
00:33:59.13\00:34:02.20
That Guy.
00:34:02.20\00:34:03.37
And he paints this picture,
you know the song, he paints
00:34:03.37\00:34:05.67
this picture about how,
oh, there's this guy and he's
00:34:05.67\00:34:09.18
walking and as the song
unfolds, he's strapped a, he's
00:34:09.18\00:34:13.52
got a suicide vest, he's
strapped, he's gone into an
00:34:13.52\00:34:17.65
area, and then he paints
this picture and he pulls a fast
00:34:17.65\00:34:20.02
one on you, Andy Gullahorn
does, and he says, and God
00:34:20.02\00:34:22.06
loves that guy.
00:34:22.06\00:34:25.99
So, you're set up.
00:34:25.99\00:34:27.13
You're emotionally set up
in the song to be ambivalent,
00:34:27.13\00:34:29.96
then to be angry, and then
to be confronted with, oh, oh,
00:34:29.96\00:34:34.60
you're right.
00:34:34.60\00:34:35.40
Not that we love that guy.
00:34:35.40\00:34:36.81
Hey, listen, we don't like it,
we're upset, we're angry, but
00:34:36.81\00:34:40.44
God is emotionally invested.
00:34:40.44\00:34:42.84
>>TY: Go, go, go.
00:34:42.84\00:34:44.85
>>JAMES: We gotta bring this
all together and get back into
00:34:44.85\00:34:46.35
the biblical perspective
of this, and I think there's a
00:34:46.35\00:34:49.02
perfect illustration of
this in a story from the Old
00:34:49.02\00:34:52.45
Testament, because we
were talking about how this
00:34:52.45\00:34:54.32
terminology must come from the
bible, especially from the Old
00:34:54.32\00:34:57.59
Testament, the mark of the
beast comes directly from the
00:34:57.59\00:35:01.00
book of Genesis.
00:35:01.00\00:35:02.40
It's in Genesis chapter 4, and
all of the principles are there.
00:35:02.40\00:35:07.34
It's an old story, the
story of Cain and Abel.
00:35:07.34\00:35:10.37
It's the very beginning of
this principle of religious
00:35:10.37\00:35:12.47
persecution and forcing
someone to worship a certain
00:35:12.47\00:35:14.81
way that's opposite of the
way that God wants worship to be
00:35:14.81\00:35:17.75
done and in this context, we
find Cain and Abel, and guess
00:35:17.75\00:35:21.48
what.
00:35:21.48\00:35:22.55
Cain, one of God's children,
kills Abel, one of God's
00:35:22.55\00:35:26.65
children.
00:35:26.65\00:35:27.36
They're brothers.
00:35:27.36\00:35:28.29
It's a perfect illustration.
00:35:28.29\00:35:29.92
And then God says, this
is what God says, and I just
00:35:29.92\00:35:31.66
wanted to find this in the
context of the wrath of God
00:35:31.66\00:35:33.56
because there's this phrase,
the wrath of the wine, the cup
00:35:33.56\00:35:38.07
of the wine of her
fornication, and the cup, no,
00:35:38.07\00:35:41.87
excuse me.
00:35:41.87\00:35:43.07
>>TY: The cup of the wine of
the wrath of his, no, the cup
00:35:43.07\00:35:46.07
of the wine of the...
00:35:46.07\00:35:47.31
>>JAMES: The wine of the wrath
of her fornication, and then,
00:35:47.31\00:35:49.64
the phrase that God has
is, the same shall drink of the
00:35:49.64\00:35:52.71
wine of the wrath of God.
00:35:52.71\00:35:54.32
The wine of the wrath of
her fornication, the wine of the
00:35:54.32\00:35:56.48
wrath of God.
00:35:56.48\00:35:57.65
All of the words are the
same, except for fornication and
00:35:57.65\00:35:59.92
God.
00:35:59.92\00:36:01.19
The wine of the wrath of God
is when God, Romans chapter 1,
00:36:01.19\00:36:04.76
give us up to the fornication,
to the wine of the wrath of
00:36:04.76\00:36:09.30
the fornication.
00:36:09.30\00:36:10.50
The wine of the wrath of God
is simply God giving us up to
00:36:10.50\00:36:12.00
what we have chosen.
00:36:12.00\00:36:14.67
So, Cain kills Abel, okay?
00:36:14.67\00:36:18.64
And God says, Cain, you are
gonna be a vagabond, you are
00:36:18.64\00:36:22.71
gonna be a stranger, you
are gonna be a wanderer in the
00:36:22.71\00:36:25.05
earth, and he says, this is...
00:36:25.05\00:36:26.75
>>DAVID: He's
already chosen that.
00:36:26.75\00:36:27.98
>>JAMES: Yes, and he says, but
this is more than I can bear,
00:36:27.98\00:36:30.45
and God, being
his Father, right?
00:36:30.45\00:36:32.82
He says, I'm gonna put a
mark on you so that no one will
00:36:32.82\00:36:37.99
hurt you.
00:36:37.99\00:36:39.19
In other words, God's saying,
I'm the one that's in charge
00:36:39.19\00:36:41.96
of all this.
00:36:41.96\00:36:42.80
I'm the one, we
don't take vengeance.
00:36:42.80\00:36:44.67
We need to be, God is the one
that's actually going to be in
00:36:44.67\00:36:47.84
charge.
00:36:47.84\00:36:49.00
So, what God says is, no
man is gonna harm you 'cause I'm
00:36:49.00\00:36:51.17
gonna put a mark on you.
00:36:51.17\00:36:52.51
The mark of the beast, in the
context of that story, is this
00:36:52.51\00:36:56.61
development of a picture of
one of God's children killing
00:36:56.61\00:37:00.38
another one of God's children
over a religious issue and God
00:37:00.38\00:37:03.82
giving them over to that which
they have chosen and allowing
00:37:03.82\00:37:07.09
them to be marked for this
destination that only God is
00:37:07.09\00:37:11.16
in charge of dealing with.
00:37:11.16\00:37:12.56
In other words, we aren't to
take vengeance, we aren't the
00:37:12.56\00:37:15.00
ones that are to step in
there and say, okay, we're gonna
00:37:15.00\00:37:17.13
give you more of this way,
and we're gonna give you more of
00:37:17.13\00:37:19.17
that way, God, but God is
saying, in the end, there's
00:37:19.17\00:37:21.17
this fruit, this harvest,
we're getting to it, and in
00:37:21.17\00:37:23.87
that harvest, we're gonna
see the full fruition of the
00:37:23.87\00:37:26.17
principles of the beast
and the full fruition of the
00:37:26.17\00:37:28.31
principles of the gospel.
00:37:28.31\00:37:30.21
And they're gonna
be marked for this.
00:37:30.21\00:37:33.35
I'm gonna let them be marked
for this, and these guys are
00:37:33.35\00:37:35.12
gonna be sealed for this.
00:37:35.12\00:37:36.28
>>DAVID: There are several
things that you said in there,
00:37:36.28\00:37:38.95
James, that were so helpful
to me, one of which was, so Cain
00:37:38.95\00:37:42.46
is whinging and whining,
that's an Australian word,
00:37:42.46\00:37:45.33
whinging, aw, I'm gonna
be a stranger, I'm gonna be a
00:37:45.33\00:37:48.03
wanderer, I'm gonna be
cut off, I'm gonna be lonely.
00:37:48.03\00:37:51.67
You just chose to kill
somebody so you wouldn't have
00:37:51.67\00:37:55.14
to be around them.
00:37:55.14\00:37:56.27
He was given over, that's
Romans 1, God gave them up,
00:37:56.27\00:37:58.91
gave them up, gave them up.
00:37:58.91\00:38:01.21
God gave Cain over to the
consequences of a life that he
00:38:01.21\00:38:07.32
chose.
00:38:07.32\00:38:08.58
You wanna
alienate yourself from...?
00:38:08.58\00:38:10.29
>>TY: I've never seen
this before, this is a powerful
00:38:10.29\00:38:11.69
connection.
00:38:11.69\00:38:13.05
>>DAVID: You sever yourself
from people to such a degree
00:38:13.05\00:38:15.16
that I've got to my way,
so much so that you'll end
00:38:15.16\00:38:17.79
another's life, and now,
you wanna have your cake and eat
00:38:17.79\00:38:20.40
it, too?
00:38:20.40\00:38:21.46
You want the rest of
your human relationships to be
00:38:21.46\00:38:22.90
fine?
00:38:22.90\00:38:24.20
It doesn't work like that.
00:38:24.20\00:38:25.40
>>TY: Okay, we
have to take a break.
00:38:27.80\00:38:29.90
Again, we don't want to,
but we have to take a break and
00:38:29.90\00:38:32.01
then, we'll come
back and continue.
00:38:32.01\00:38:34.88
[Music]
00:38:34.88\00:38:47.22
Announcer: A Light in Zambia
is a moving video documentary
00:38:47.22\00:38:49.79
that traces the stories of 5
amazing African men and women
00:38:49.79\00:38:53.80
who encountered Christ through
the powerful medium of gospel
00:38:53.80\00:38:56.90
literature.
00:38:56.90\00:38:58.23
To receive your free copy,
call 877-585-1111, or write to
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Once again, to receive
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00:39:10.81\00:39:14.02
Zambia, call 877-585-1111,
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00:39:14.02\00:39:20.39
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00:39:20.39\00:39:26.53
Simply ask for the Zambia DVD.
00:39:26.53\00:39:29.50
[Music]
00:39:30.80\00:39:35.24
>>TY: So, we've covered
some amazing stuff here.
00:39:35.24\00:39:37.17
We cannot pretend that
this is not a difficult passage.
00:39:37.17\00:39:41.71
It is difficult.
00:39:41.71\00:39:43.55
>>JEFFREY: It's super easy.
00:39:43.55\00:39:44.61
>>TY: It's a difficult
passage, but James made some
00:39:44.61\00:39:49.22
sense out of this that is very
helpful for me because now I'm
00:39:49.22\00:39:53.76
beginning to realize that
when God is essentially saying,
00:39:53.76\00:39:58.03
those who receive the mark
of the beast are coming under my
00:39:58.03\00:40:02.96
wrath, God is essentially
saying to his people, don't
00:40:02.96\00:40:08.07
you deal with the
problem of their coercion and
00:40:08.07\00:40:14.84
unfaithfulness to me, they're
gonna be, I'm gonna deal with
00:40:14.84\00:40:18.78
them in the way that
only I can deal with them.
00:40:18.78\00:40:21.78
They're going to be subject
to my wrath and my wrath, God's
00:40:21.78\00:40:26.19
wrath, according to Romans 1
that James pointed out, is my
00:40:26.19\00:40:30.89
system is a just and fair
system because people get what
00:40:30.89\00:40:36.03
they actually chose.
00:40:36.03\00:40:37.77
They get what they choose.
00:40:37.77\00:40:39.00
We're gonna overshoot the mark
and lop off someone's head or
00:40:39.00\00:40:41.57
ear or something and Jesus
is gonna have to repair the
00:40:41.57\00:40:44.41
damage that we do.
00:40:44.41\00:40:45.87
>>JAMES: Yeah, that's
Peter, the story of Peter.
00:40:45.87\00:40:47.21
>>TY: But God is saying,
essentially, vengeance is mine
00:40:47.21\00:40:50.18
because I'm the only one who
has a vengeance system that is
00:40:50.18\00:40:53.88
consistent with justice.
00:40:53.88\00:40:56.25
I'm the one who can unfold
this the way it needs to be
00:40:56.25\00:41:00.82
unfolded, so back
off and leave it to me.
00:41:00.82\00:41:04.99
That's very helpful for
me understanding the third
00:41:04.99\00:41:07.93
angel's message.
00:41:07.93\00:41:09.06
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, 'cause
it's their choice, right?
00:41:09.06\00:41:11.10
Those who receive, in verse
9, it's, on their forehead or on
00:41:11.10\00:41:14.94
their hand.
00:41:14.94\00:41:16.40
So, either by shared
ideology, or out of convenience.
00:41:16.40\00:41:20.94
>>TY: Or out of threat
that, to save my hide, I'm gonna
00:41:20.94\00:41:24.15
comply with the system.
00:41:24.15\00:41:25.65
>>JEFFREY: So, either way, yeah.
00:41:25.65\00:41:27.28
>>JAMES: They're
supporting the system.
00:41:27.28\00:41:28.48
>>DAVID: I think, too, that...
00:41:28.48\00:41:30.95
yeah, you're right, it's a
tough passage of scripture,
00:41:30.95\00:41:34.42
particularly in light of
the picture and portrait that's
00:41:34.42\00:41:37.26
been painted of God up to this
point in light of the goodness
00:41:37.26\00:41:40.90
of God in Christ.
00:41:40.90\00:41:41.93
You know, you have this
language, full strength into
00:41:41.93\00:41:44.57
the cup of his indignation.
00:41:44.57\00:41:46.13
Okay, I think we managed that,
I think that was alright, I
00:41:46.13\00:41:49.17
think we handled
that pretty well.
00:41:49.17\00:41:51.04
>>TY: But here's the thing
that James didn't say and I
00:41:51.04\00:41:54.24
just think that it needs to
be thrown in here, the language
00:41:54.24\00:41:56.75
of the full strength in the cup.
00:41:56.75\00:42:00.08
Well, that's Matthew 26.
00:42:00.08\00:42:02.58
It's Jesus who, so the cross,
Gethsemane and the cross shows
00:42:02.58\00:42:08.06
us what the wrath of God looks
like, how it unfolds, right?
00:42:08.06\00:42:12.16
It's, my God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?
00:42:12.16\00:42:15.43
Which is consistent with
what James was calling our
00:42:15.43\00:42:18.30
attention to, right?
00:42:18.30\00:42:19.63
>>JEFFREY: So, the cup of
indignation that Jesus drank
00:42:19.63\00:42:21.57
is the cup that those in
this passage drink only because
00:42:21.57\00:42:27.91
they refuse to accept the
fact that Jesus already drank it
00:42:27.91\00:42:31.55
for them.
00:42:31.55\00:42:32.75
>>DAVID: When you read that
in Matthew 26, Jesus gives the
00:42:32.75\00:42:36.08
cup, this is in the Last
Supper, he says, drink you,
00:42:36.08\00:42:40.19
all of it.
00:42:40.19\00:42:41.49
I am very much of the
opinion that that means Jesus is
00:42:41.49\00:42:44.46
saying, I don't think
Jesus drank any of that cup.
00:42:44.46\00:42:47.96
I think that's why he says,
I think they're like, hey you
00:42:47.96\00:42:51.87
have some, in
the Lord's Supper...
00:42:51.87\00:42:53.37
>>JEFFREY: See, I think you
were talking about Gethsemane.
00:42:53.37\00:42:55.17
>>DAVID: So, check this out,
watch where I'm going, watch
00:42:55.17\00:42:56.91
where I'm going.
00:42:56.91\00:42:57.94
So, then, they're
like, hey, you have some.
00:42:57.94\00:42:59.61
This isn't in the text, I
think it's implied, I will not
00:42:59.61\00:43:01.74
drink this cup 'til I drink
it new with you in the kingdom.
00:43:01.74\00:43:05.25
You drink this 'cause Jesus
knows, in about 3 hours, he
00:43:05.25\00:43:09.75
has his own cup that he drinks.
00:43:09.75\00:43:12.25
They drink the cup of
communion, connection, he goes
00:43:12.25\00:43:17.53
and drinks the cup
of disconnection, wrath,
00:43:17.53\00:43:20.43
separation,
isolation, forsakenness.
00:43:20.43\00:43:23.90
Okay, so, I get that.
00:43:23.90\00:43:25.13
This is tricky for me, though.
00:43:25.13\00:43:28.17
That next part.
00:43:28.17\00:43:29.37
>>JEFFREY: What next part?
00:43:29.37\00:43:30.47
>>DAVID: Well, the very,
that's where I was going, it's
00:43:30.47\00:43:31.81
like, okay, I think we
handled, there you go, he
00:43:31.81\00:43:33.64
shall be tormented with fire
and brimstone, in the presence
00:43:33.64\00:43:37.61
of the holy angels and
in the presence of the Lamb.
00:43:37.61\00:43:39.48
So, there's
Jesus, there's the Lamb.
00:43:39.48\00:43:41.52
>>JEFFREY: But the Lamb, the
fact that it's the Lamb that's
00:43:41.52\00:43:44.05
present.
00:43:44.05\00:43:45.02
>>JAMES: Let me
ask you a question.
00:43:45.02\00:43:45.99
>>DAVID: No, no, no, I get that.
00:43:45.99\00:43:47.02
The word tormented,
that's a tricky one.
00:43:47.02\00:43:49.12
>>JAMES: Well, let me ask
you a question, can they be
00:43:49.12\00:43:51.23
tormented outside the presence
of the Lamb and outside the
00:43:51.23\00:43:54.10
presence of angels?
00:43:54.10\00:43:56.80
Can they be tormented
outside of the Lamb's presence?
00:43:56.80\00:43:59.77
What is it...?
00:43:59.77\00:44:01.17
>>DAVID: I think the
Lamb's presence is the torment.
00:44:01.17\00:44:02.84
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:44:02.84\00:44:03.91
>>DAVID: Did we just
finish one another's sentence?
00:44:03.91\00:44:05.37
>>TY: I think that
has to be the case.
00:44:05.37\00:44:08.14
There's evidence for that.
00:44:08.14\00:44:09.98
>>JAMES: It's true in
other places, Revelation 6.
00:44:09.98\00:44:11.55
>>TY: That's where I just went.
00:44:11.55\00:44:12.78
Go there and make
that point, James.
00:44:12.78\00:44:15.98
>>JAMES: No, go
ahead, Ty, you got it.
00:44:15.98\00:44:17.72
>>TY: This connection, well,
in chapter 6, verses, were you
00:44:17.72\00:44:22.76
gonna 16 and 17,
that's where I was at.
00:44:22.76\00:44:24.99
>>JAMES: Yep, 15, 16, 17.
00:44:24.99\00:44:26.73
>>TY: And the kings of the
earth, the great men, the rich
00:44:26.73\00:44:28.93
men, the commanders, the
mighty men, every slave, every
00:44:28.93\00:44:33.07
free man, hid themselves in
the caves and the rocks of the
00:44:33.07\00:44:37.14
mountains and said to the
mountains and rocks, fall on
00:44:37.14\00:44:40.74
us and hide us from the face
of him who sits on the throne
00:44:40.74\00:44:45.85
and from the wrath of the Lamb
for the great day of his wrath
00:44:45.85\00:44:49.58
has come and who
will be able to stand?
00:44:49.58\00:44:51.39
They want to be hidden
from the face of the Lamb.
00:44:51.39\00:44:57.66
This is describing the
psychological torment that
00:44:57.66\00:45:03.67
comes from unresolved
guilt in the presence of perfect
00:45:03.67\00:45:07.77
innocence.
00:45:07.77\00:45:08.77
I mean, think about this.
00:45:08.77\00:45:09.90
If his love, if his love
for us doesn't go back to the
00:45:09.90\00:45:15.68
Matthew passage, chapter 21,
if his love doesn't crush sin
00:45:15.68\00:45:20.78
in us, then that love is going
to crush us out of existence.
00:45:20.78\00:45:27.76
>>DAVID: Unresolved guilt.
00:45:27.76\00:45:29.19
>>JEFFREY: Didn't we allude
to the passages where the demons
00:45:29.19\00:45:33.46
and Jesus enters into the
presence of the demons and
00:45:33.46\00:45:35.76
they're like, why have
you come to torment us?
00:45:35.76\00:45:39.37
So, the very presence of
Jesus is creating torment.
00:45:39.37\00:45:43.57
>>TY: So this can't be, when
we're reading about torment,
00:45:43.57\00:45:45.34
you can go one of
two ways with this.
00:45:45.34\00:45:47.21
You can either say that
this passage is saying that God
00:45:47.21\00:45:50.38
will torture people in
the sense that all of our
00:45:50.38\00:45:55.35
collective judgement,
even with the Geneva convention
00:45:55.35\00:46:00.19
says that torture is wrong.
00:46:00.19\00:46:02.82
>>DAVID: There's no way that
the Geneva Convention is more
00:46:02.82\00:46:04.06
righteous than God.
00:46:04.06\00:46:05.63
>>TY: The Geneva Convention
ruled torture as wrong not
00:46:05.63\00:46:10.40
just because of the tortured,
but because of the torturer.
00:46:10.40\00:46:14.50
It was saying the
psychological effect that
00:46:14.50\00:46:17.51
torturing others has on the
person doing the torturing, it
00:46:17.51\00:46:21.04
messes you up in your
psychology to inflict torture
00:46:21.04\00:46:25.88
on someone.
00:46:25.88\00:46:27.12
This, the point that James
is making is the presence issue.
00:46:27.12\00:46:31.29
They're in the presence
of the Lamb and it's his very
00:46:31.29\00:46:33.89
presence that produces
the psychological torment of
00:46:33.89\00:46:37.39
guilt.
00:46:37.39\00:46:38.56
>>DAVID: What do you think
of this idea, the thing that
00:46:38.56\00:46:40.80
they're tormented with is
not God, they're tormented with
00:46:40.80\00:46:47.54
fire and brimstone.
00:46:47.54\00:46:49.44
In other words, maybe I'm
making too fine of a, okay,
00:46:49.44\00:46:52.57
let me read Isaiah 33 on this
and tell me if you think this
00:46:52.57\00:46:54.84
is the right reach here.
00:46:54.84\00:46:56.41
>>JAMES: No,
Isaiah 33 is the answer.
00:46:56.41\00:46:59.21
>>DAVID: Okays, so
we're on the same page.
00:46:59.21\00:47:00.82
But Isaiah 33, I'll
pick it up in verse 14.
00:47:00.82\00:47:06.45
The sinners in
Zion are afraid, right?
00:47:06.45\00:47:10.56
That sounds like hide us
from the wrath of the Lamb.
00:47:10.56\00:47:13.19
Fearfulness has
seized the hypocrites.
00:47:13.19\00:47:15.66
Okay, hypocrisy.
00:47:15.66\00:47:17.13
Who among us will dwell
with the devouring fire?
00:47:17.13\00:47:21.14
There we go.
00:47:21.14\00:47:22.20
Who among us will dwell
with everlasting burnings?
00:47:22.20\00:47:26.11
>>TY: And right there,
everybody's thinking, well,
00:47:26.11\00:47:27.64
the wicked, of course.
00:47:27.64\00:47:28.74
>>DAVID: The wicked, yeah,
the wicked, thrown into the
00:47:28.74\00:47:31.01
torment, okay.
00:47:31.01\00:47:32.41
Verse 15, he who
walks righteously and speaks
00:47:32.41\00:47:36.48
uprightly, he who despises
the gain of oppressions, who
00:47:36.48\00:47:40.89
gestures with his hand,
refusing bribes, who stops his
00:47:40.89\00:47:44.09
ears from the hearing of
bloodshed and shuts his eyes
00:47:44.09\00:47:46.46
from seeing evil, he will
dwell on high, his place will
00:47:46.46\00:47:50.87
be the defense of the fortress
of rocks, bread will be given
00:47:50.87\00:47:53.57
him and his
water will be shared.
00:47:53.57\00:47:55.10
>>TY: Verse 17,
don't miss verse 17.
00:47:55.10\00:47:56.27
>>DAVID: Okay, I'm
sorry, I was gonna.
00:47:56.27\00:47:57.64
Of course, I'm so sorry.
00:47:57.64\00:47:58.87
Your eyes will see the king
in his beauty, they will see the
00:47:58.87\00:48:01.58
land that is very far off.
00:48:01.58\00:48:03.75
>>TY: Isn't that
a powerful passage?
00:48:03.75\00:48:06.45
>>DAVID: So, it needs to
be unpacked, it needs to be
00:48:06.45\00:48:07.42
explained.
00:48:07.42\00:48:08.28
I mean, it is
fairly self-explanatory.
00:48:08.28\00:48:09.45
So, the idea here is that,
the of Zion inside are afraid,
00:48:09.45\00:48:12.62
fearfulness has
seized the hypocrites.
00:48:12.62\00:48:13.92
Who will dwell in the presence
of everlasting burnings?
00:48:13.92\00:48:17.63
In both the Old and the New
Testaments, God is a consuming
00:48:17.63\00:48:20.53
fire.
00:48:20.53\00:48:21.66
God's presence is a fiery,
consuming entity to all things
00:48:21.66\00:48:29.10
that are contrary to his
goodness and his character.
00:48:29.10\00:48:30.84
So, the question is,
who could dwell with that?
00:48:30.84\00:48:34.01
Well, the wicked can't.
00:48:34.01\00:48:35.11
They're consumed by it.
00:48:35.11\00:48:36.58
But the righteous can.
00:48:36.58\00:48:38.71
So, this adds so much
leverage, James, to the idea
00:48:38.71\00:48:41.88
that the source of
torture is not God actively,
00:48:41.88\00:48:46.99
artificially, in a contrived
manner, inflicting something
00:48:46.99\00:48:50.29
that's not
native to the situation.
00:48:50.29\00:48:52.83
Oh, I think I had
good articulation there.
00:48:52.83\00:48:54.13
It's something within
the situation that God is
00:48:54.13\00:48:59.17
overseeing.
00:48:59.17\00:49:00.44
He's certainly superintending
it, and what he's saying is,
00:49:00.44\00:49:02.67
and I love this language,
these people have made their
00:49:02.67\00:49:06.68
decisions.
00:49:06.68\00:49:08.28
Their decisions have made them.
00:49:08.28\00:49:10.91
They have so identified
with evil, so identified with
00:49:10.91\00:49:12.21
sin...
00:49:12.21\00:49:13.62
>>TY: That's CS
Lewis right there.
00:49:13.62\00:49:15.02
>>DAVID: That's Lewis and
Boyd, that's Boyd, and then,
00:49:15.02\00:49:16.89
God's like, well, the wages
of sin is death and here we are.
00:49:16.89\00:49:22.49
Lewis, two kinds of people
at the end of time, those that
00:49:22.49\00:49:26.13
say to God, thy will be done.
00:49:26.13\00:49:28.10
Those to whom God
says, thy will be done.
00:49:28.10\00:49:31.83
So, it's native to the thing.
00:49:31.83\00:49:34.24
>>JAMES: Fire and brimstone.
00:49:34.24\00:49:35.70
Check this out, and this
is just a new idea to me, but
00:49:35.70\00:49:37.97
it's amazing.
00:49:37.97\00:49:39.01
You look up the word
brimstone, and it's probably
00:49:39.01\00:49:41.78
neuter from 2304, it means
sulfur, you to go to 2304, it
00:49:41.78\00:49:46.88
means God-like, and it comes
from 2316 as in divinity, you
00:49:46.88\00:49:51.22
go to 2316, the
supreme divinity.
00:49:51.22\00:49:54.69
What?  What?
00:49:57.16\00:49:59.53
>>DAVID: Just so we're clear...
00:49:59.53\00:50:00.73
>>JAMES: In other words, in
other words, they're gonna be
00:50:00.73\00:50:05.23
tormented with the presence
of God and the divinity of God.
00:50:05.23\00:50:09.54
>>DAVID: I'd have to see that
again, you did lose me there,
00:50:09.54\00:50:10.81
but it made sense.
00:50:10.81\00:50:12.27
>>JAMES: Sulfur, the root
word for sulfur goes back to the
00:50:12.27\00:50:15.41
divine supreme
divinity, to God himself.
00:50:15.41\00:50:18.68
It's not, sulfur's not
some organic material that is in
00:50:18.68\00:50:21.05
here, you know, that causes...
00:50:21.05\00:50:23.49
>>DAVID: Can you say
that a little slower?
00:50:23.49\00:50:24.52
'Cause this could be a
real breakthrough for me.
00:50:24.52\00:50:25.85
>>JAMES: The word sulfur,
okay, you look up the word
00:50:25.85\00:50:27.66
sulfur, you go to your
Strong's Concordance, that's
00:50:27.66\00:50:29.22
what I have here, and you look
up the word, excuse me, fire
00:50:29.22\00:50:31.33
and brimstone, you look up
the word brimstone, boom, you
00:50:31.33\00:50:33.40
click on that.
00:50:33.40\00:50:34.46
>>JEFFREY: You
clicked on the wrong word.
00:50:34.46\00:50:36.50
>>JAMES: Did I?
00:50:36.50\00:50:37.50
>>JEFFREY: I think you did.
00:50:37.50\00:50:38.73
There you go.
00:50:38.73\00:50:39.83
>>JAMES: Okay, probably
neuter of 2304, in its original
00:50:39.83\00:50:42.04
sense, a flashing, sulfur.
00:50:42.04\00:50:44.34
>>DAVID: Okay, so
that's what happens.
00:50:44.34\00:50:45.71
When you light
sulfur, it goes, it flashes.
00:50:45.71\00:50:47.11
>>JAMES: Okay, then 2304,
you go to 2304, from 2316,
00:50:47.11\00:50:51.11
God-like.
00:50:51.11\00:50:52.05
Neuter, noun, divinity.
00:50:52.05\00:50:53.98
>>DAVID: 'Cause this is
the word, I can actually see it
00:50:53.98\00:50:55.65
here, is it theios?
00:50:55.65\00:50:56.92
I can't tell if it's an L
or an I, it's either thelos or
00:50:56.92\00:50:58.89
theios.
00:50:58.89\00:51:00.76
>>JAMES: T-H-E-I-O-S.
00:51:00.76\00:51:02.42
>>DAVID: So, theios.
00:51:02.42\00:51:03.09
Which sounds very much like...
00:51:03.09\00:51:04.26
>>JAMES: And then you go to
the next word that comes up,
00:51:04.26\00:51:07.30
which is theios.
00:51:07.30\00:51:08.13
In other words, the word...
00:51:08.13\00:51:09.33
>>DAVID: So, go back
just two, what is the word for
00:51:09.33\00:51:10.83
brimstone?
00:51:10.83\00:51:11.50
Just go back.
00:51:11.50\00:51:12.27
>>JAMES: Brimstone?
00:51:12.27\00:51:13.23
>>DAVID: Yeah, what
is the actual word there?
00:51:13.23\00:51:15.34
>>JAMES: Theion.
00:51:15.34\00:51:16.27
>>DAVID: Theion.
00:51:16.27\00:51:17.31
>>JAMES: Which comes
from theios, which comes from
00:51:17.31\00:51:18.87
theios.
00:51:18.87\00:51:20.04
Anyway, the point is...
00:51:20.04\00:51:22.14
>>DAVID: I never.
00:51:22.14\00:51:24.05
>>JAMES: Our God
is a consuming fire.
00:51:24.05\00:51:26.21
Our God is a consuming fire.
00:51:26.21\00:51:27.78
The thing that torments
them is his, now this is brought
00:51:27.78\00:51:30.79
out in...
00:51:30.79\00:51:31.55
>>DAVID: How did you know that?
00:51:31.55\00:51:32.59
>>TY: He pushed
all those numbers.
00:51:32.59\00:51:34.36
[Laughter]
00:51:34.36\00:51:35.66
>>DAVID: Does that thing
give other kinds of answers?
00:51:35.66\00:51:37.49
>>JAMES: This
is bible study 101.
00:51:38.23\00:51:39.89
>>TY: I want you to show
me that app, whatever you're
00:51:39.89\00:51:41.06
using there, 'cause I
need to be able to do that.
00:51:41.06\00:51:43.26
>>JAMES: It's a really good app.
00:51:43.26\00:51:44.60
>>DAVID: Have you
heard this before?
00:51:44.60\00:51:45.47
You knew this?
00:51:45.47\00:51:46.33
>>TY: No, not 'til this moment.
00:51:46.33\00:51:47.94
>>JAMES: This
is bible study 101.
00:51:47.94\00:51:50.07
So, but this
lines up with scripture.
00:51:50.07\00:51:52.37
Using a concordance is.
00:51:53.31\00:51:56.24
But this lines up
with scripture, think this
00:51:56.24\00:51:58.25
through now.
00:51:58.25\00:51:59.28
Our God is a consuming fire.
00:51:59.28\00:52:00.78
>>DAVID: That makes total sense.
00:52:00.78\00:52:02.98
>>JAMES: Romans chapter 2,
do you despise the goodness of
00:52:02.98\00:52:05.02
God, not knowing that...
00:52:05.02\00:52:06.22
>>DAVID: The goodness of
God leads you to repentance?
00:52:06.22\00:52:09.42
>>JAMES: Or, are you
treasuring up wrath against
00:52:09.42\00:52:11.69
the day of wrath and
the righteous revelation...
00:52:11.69\00:52:14.30
>>TY: Of the judgement of God.
00:52:14.30\00:52:16.33
>>JAMES: Yes,
it's his revelation.
00:52:16.33\00:52:17.67
Fire and brimstone.
00:52:17.67\00:52:18.67
>>DAVID: You're
quoting Romans 2.
00:52:18.67\00:52:20.74
>>JAMES: Verses
4, 5, and 6, yeah.
00:52:20.74\00:52:23.04
Fire and brimstone is the
revelation, that's why it's in
00:52:23.04\00:52:26.21
the presence of the angels,
and that's why I asked you the
00:52:26.21\00:52:27.84
question, can this take
place outside the presence?
00:52:27.84\00:52:31.81
Can this take place, just
to be clear for our viewers?
00:52:31.81\00:52:34.88
>>DAVID: It cannot take
place outside of God's presence.
00:52:34.88\00:52:36.18
Now, when you're
asking that question.
00:52:36.18\00:52:37.82
'cause I was thrown off there,
when you were like, can they
00:52:37.82\00:52:40.52
be tormented
outside of God's presence?
00:52:40.52\00:52:42.26
I was like, well, he
could leave the room.
00:52:42.26\00:52:44.09
I wasn't even understanding.
00:52:44.09\00:52:46.66
>>JAMES: Demons, why'd
you come to torment us.
00:52:46.66\00:52:48.43
He leaves, torment leaves.
00:52:48.43\00:52:50.40
And is God tormenting evil?
00:52:50.40\00:52:52.60
No, he's revealing his goodness
and it's a torment to them.
00:52:52.60\00:52:55.84
Unselfish love, every chord
striking a note of unselfish
00:52:55.84\00:52:58.74
love in heaven is
torture to selfishness,
00:52:58.74\00:53:02.84
to the selfish heart.
00:53:02.84\00:53:03.65
>>TY: Amazing.
00:53:05.05\00:53:05.68
We have 59 seconds left.
00:53:05.68\00:53:07.95
>>JAMES: Close it out, Ty.
00:53:07.95\00:53:09.05
>>TY: So, essentially
what we've discovered so far is
00:53:09.05\00:53:13.05
that the third angel's message
is an incredible revelation of
00:53:13.05\00:53:18.83
the fact that God is taking
responsibility for dealing
00:53:18.83\00:53:23.00
with the lost and the wicked
that we're not in a position
00:53:23.00\00:53:26.70
to deal with them in just
and true ways, but God has just
00:53:26.70\00:53:29.80
and true ways, God has
methods that are superior to our
00:53:29.80\00:53:35.04
fallen nature and God is
saying, leave that part to me,
00:53:35.04\00:53:39.08
what you need to do is preach
the gospel, live the gospel,
00:53:39.08\00:53:43.18
experience the gospel,
and I will deal with those who
00:53:43.18\00:53:47.62
receive the mark of the beast.
00:53:47.62\00:53:49.46
>>JAMES: And keep
the faith of Jesus.
00:53:49.46\00:53:50.46
The way we look at it.
00:53:51.49\00:53:52.63
>>DAVID: We will, we will.
00:53:52.63\00:53:53.60
>>TY: We'll come back to it.
00:53:53.60\00:53:54.56
We'll do it.
00:53:54.56\00:53:55.70
So, we're making an abrupt
close here, but the excitement
00:53:55.70\00:53:59.13
level and the energy
level's been high and the third
00:53:59.13\00:54:01.30
angel's message is clearer for
me, personally, than it's ever
00:54:01.30\00:54:04.91
been.
00:54:04.91\00:54:05.57
>>DAVID: Hallelujah.
00:54:05.57\00:54:06.27
>>JAMES: Praise God.
00:54:06.27\00:54:06.98
[Music]
00:54:06.98\00:54:10.05