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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000407A
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00:10 [Music] 00:20 >>TY: Let's begin with a question that I don't even 00:23 know if you'll have an answer for, but have you ever had a 00:25 scary encounter with an animal? 00:29 >>JEFFREY: Snake. 00:30 >>TY: What happened? 00:32 >>JEFFREY: It was a copperhead snake in Arkansas, I stepped 00:34 on it, full on. 00:36 >>TY: You stepped on it. 00:37 >>JEFFREY: Yeah. 00:38 >>TY: Didn't bite you, obviously, 'cause you're here. 00:39 You killed it. 00:41 >>JEFFREY: I looked down, I grabbed it, I, no, I'm just 00:42 kidding, but I saw it and I freaked out and I just went, 00:45 shoom. 00:46 >>TY: You and Jesus, crushing the head of the serpent. 00:48 >>JEFFREY: That's it. 00:49 >>DAVID: Just a dog is all I can think of. 00:51 >>TY: Okay. 00:53 >>DAVID: Like, at various times, you know, a dog's 00:53 chasing. 00:55 I used to run a lot and dogs would chase you and that's 00:56 always a little heavy, but not like a wild animal. 00:59 >>JAMES: Definitely with a dog but the scariest encounter I 01:02 ever had with an animal was when I was riding, I wasn't 01:06 riding fast, but I was on a horse bareback and the horse 01:09 was walking in circles and I just slipped off and fell on 01:12 the ground, it was really scary. 01:14 >>TY: That is scary. 01:15 >>DAVID: That's it, so you just slipped off of a horse. 01:17 >>JAMES: Bareback, I was bareback and he was walking in 01:20 circles. 01:21 >>JEFFREY: What do you mean that's it? 01:22 >>DAVID: And it's funny 'cause it took a while to slip off 01:23 and so I had all of that anticipating time, you know, 01:25 where I knew I was gonna get off, I'm gonna go, gonna go, 01:27 gonna go off, and maybe he'll tread me underfoot. 01:30 I don't know. 01:31 >>TY: I was gonna say that the scariest encounter I had was 01:35 when I... 01:36 >>DAVID: He always does this just to show us up. 01:38 He's gonna have some epic... 01:40 >>TY: I do not have an epic story, but James knows 'cause 01:45 James was in the same area, we lived out in the wilderness. 01:48 >>JEFFREY: You know all these stories, like, yeah, I know 01:50 this story. 01:52 >>TY: And I encountered a bear one time and the guy I was 01:54 with, I'm a city kid, I was raised in the city and living 01:58 in the country was kinda scary for the first few years and 02:01 the people we were around, they were real country folks. 02:05 This guy saw the bear, I saw the bear, and my inclination 02:08 is, you run from the bear, you turn around, you go the 02:10 opposite direction. 02:12 This guy picked up a big PVC pipe and began running after 02:15 it and poking it and ran it up a tree. 02:17 That was scary. 02:18 So, I was gonna say that that was my scariest experience 02:21 with a wild animal until James mentioned the horse and then I 02:24 remembered that I got on the back of a pony one time and 02:30 the pony didn't like me and just took off at breakneck 02:34 speed, galloping until I fell off. 02:38 That was the scariest experience I've ever had with 02:40 an animal. 02:42 >>DAVID: I love that. 02:44 >>TY: And you're thinking, I decided at that point, I would 02:46 never get on the back of anything with a brain again. 02:47 I can handle a car, a motorcycle, but if it has a 02:51 brain, why would you get on the back of something that can 02:55 make choices. 02:56 [Laughter] 02:57 >>DAVID: Like, I'm gonna run as fast as I can until this 02:59 thing falls off of me. 03:00 You obviously didn't get too hurt. 03:02 >>TY: No, but it was terrifying because I was out 03:06 of control. 03:08 I was shouting, screaming, doing what you see in cowboy 03:12 movies with my legs trying to get it to stop, said 03:15 everything from yeehaw to whatever. 03:17 >>DAVID: I think yeehaw means go really fast in pony. 03:19 >>JAMES: So, according to Revelation 13, we're all gonna 03:21 have a scary encounter with some wild animal. 03:23 >>JEFFREY: Oh, he fully just tied it in before you. 03:26 >>TY: No, that's great, because in Revelation chapter 03:30 13, in Revelation 13, the whole world has a scary 03:36 encounter with a wild animal that nobody's ever encountered 03:41 in real life 'cause it's a composite beast, but this 03:44 animal, in Revelation chapter 13, is described as having 7 03:50 heads, 10 horns, with the name blasphemy on its heads, and 03:55 then, in verse 2, this beast is a combination of a leopard, 04:00 a bear, a lion, and a dragon. 04:03 So, this is quite a creature. 04:05 >>JEFFREY: An amalgamation. 04:07 >>TY: It's an amalgamation of beasts, but Revelation 13 is 04:12 bringing to view not a crazy cartoonish composite beast, 04:17 but a picture of a power, a kingdom, an empire, some kind 04:22 of earthly system that is threatening the human race. 04:27 So, the first question I would have on the basis of the first 04:31 two verses of Revelation chapter 13 is what is the 04:36 background that we're coming from on this? 04:40 >>JEFFREY: Well, this stuff sounds familiar. 04:42 The imagery here is taken from the book of Daniel, chapter 7. 04:45 >>TY: Okay. 04:46 >>JEFFREY: Should we read that? 04:47 >>TY: Sure. 04:48 >>JEFFREY: Can I? 04:49 You're looking at me funny. 04:50 >>TY: Well, David is pointing out to me that we didn't 04:53 finish chapter 12 and we were gonna deal with verses 13-17 04:56 and... 04:57 >>JEFFREY: You need to connect that first? 04:59 >>TY: We don't need to connect it first, but we do need to 05:01 come back. 05:02 >>DAVID: We'll come back to it, we just can't... 05:05 >>TY: But take us to Daniel 7. 05:07 >>JAMES: We'll be doing that in verse 11. 05:09 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, the simple point is just that, the 05:12 amalgamation, the composite beast here in verse 2. 05:15 >>TY: What? 05:16 >>JAMES: The composite beast. 05:18 >>JEFFREY: Sorry, the composite beast is taken from 05:20 Daniel 7 and there's four beasts and in verse 4, it 05:24 starts describing it, for instance, a lion, eagle's 05:29 wings, then there's a bear, verse 5, and then there's a 05:36 leopard in verse 6. 05:38 >>TY: Break that down for us, Jeffrey. 05:41 >>JEFFREY: Then, in chapter 7, these beasts are describing 05:43 empires. 05:44 And we're told in, what is it, verse 17 and 23 is it? 05:47 Or 21? 05:48 That a beast represents a power and a kingdom. 05:51 So, these are four powers, four kingdoms, and in the 05:54 prophecies of Daniel, they represent the Babylonian 05:57 empire, the Persian empire, Greece, and the Roman empire. 06:01 So, whatever we're looking at here in the 13th chapter of 06:04 Revelation, Daniel, borrowing imagery from Daniel, John in 06:08 Revelation 13 is trying to draw attention to this 06:11 development in history. 06:13 >>TY: But he's doing something unique because he's bringing 06:16 these separate empires that ran one after another. 06:19 Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and then Rome. 06:22 Then, he's taking those beasts that represented those powers 06:27 and he's pulling them all together into one beast. 06:31 Why is that? 06:32 Why combine the elements of these different empires into 06:36 one? 06:38 >>JAMES: That's because of verse 12 of Daniel 7, it says, 06:39 as concerning the rest of the beast, they had their dominion 06:41 taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season 06:44 and a time, and what's that inferring here is that these 06:47 kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome 06:50 had a culture and traditions and practices that carried on 06:54 into this composite beast in Revelation 13. 06:57 So, we're gonna see characteristics in this beast 06:59 in Revelation 13 as the earthly power in Revelation 13 07:01 that reminds us of these different powers that went 07:04 before, these different kingdoms that went before it. 07:05 >>DAVID: For example, like, the first one that's mentioned 07:08 there, Babylon is expressly, that is expressly named in the 07:12 book of Revelation when we get a little bit later, well, 07:15 actually, Revelation 14, Revelation 17, so the idea 07:17 that you have elements of, you know, Babylonian ideas, 07:21 theology, and that you have Greek ideas in there and you 07:24 have Roman ideas, that's all wrapped up with this beast. 07:28 >>TY: Yeah. 07:29 >>DAVID: And something that I've always found really 07:32 persuasive is that when Daniel, who's living 600 years 07:35 before the time of Jesus, when he sees this prophecy of these 07:38 beasts, that Jeffrey's describing in Daniel 7, 07:40 he sees a lion, Babylon, a bear, Persia, Medo-Persia, he 07:44 sees a leopard, Greece, and then he sees this terrible, 07:47 ferocious beast with 7 heads and ten horns, Rome. 07:51 So, he's looking forward, as you would expect, 600 years 07:53 before the time of Jesus, looking forward, he sees, 07:55 Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome. 07:57 When John, who's living first century, and ten horns. 08:00 When John, who's living first century, describes the beast, 08:04 fascinatingly, this is a great little historicist evidence, 08:08 he describes those beasts in the reverse order. 08:11 He describes the attributes of the beast. 08:14 So, he says that he had the ten horns, then he says, the 08:19 beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like 08:23 the feet of a bear and its mouth was like the mouth of a 08:25 lion. 08:27 So, it's just, which makes sense, if Daniel's looking 08:29 forward, he sees Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, 08:31 John's living during the time of Rome, so he sees, Rome, 08:33 Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon. 08:37 So, this is just another little snippet, a little gem 08:40 of this historicist idea, this is traversing through the 08:44 time, through history to the time of the prophet. 08:46 >>TY: Okay, so, in Daniel, chapter 7, we have Babylon, 08:50 Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, and then, there's a transition 08:53 because the terrible beast in Daniel 7, which is Rome then 08:58 has a little horn that develops out of it in chapter 09:02 7 and in chapter 8, we have a little horn. 09:04 So, there's a transition between the Pagan Roman 09:08 empire, and the Papal Roman empire. 09:12 So, the papacy is born out of the Roman empire. 09:15 When we come to Revelation. 09:16 >>DAVID: When we say papal and papacy, we're saying the 09:18 medieval church. 09:19 >>TY: The medieval church. 09:20 >>DAVID: The church like you were saying in Revelation 12, 09:22 the visible, somebody would say, hey, where's the church? 09:24 Oh, it's this thing right here, 'cause God's church has 09:27 gone underground, we'll return to that, I think, so that's, 09:29 just so we're clear on our language here, 'cause a lot of 09:31 people might not know papacy. 09:33 That's in-house language. 09:34 >>TY: So, we can make it clear by saying that the Roman 09:39 empire has two phases, it has the pagan phase under the 09:43 Caesars, it has the papal phase under the popes and 09:47 there's a transition, but it's really, in Daniel's visions, 09:51 it's a single empire. 09:53 It's one empire. 09:54 It's a seamless transition and what takes place is that the 09:59 pagan Roman empire or secular Rome, you might even say, with 10:04 religious elements from paganism, as a civil power, 10:08 transitions at a certain point in history so that the Roman 10:12 empire takes on now Christian language and attributes, and 10:16 the papal Roman empire, now, is in the position that was 10:21 once occupied by the pagan Roman empire, or in the 10:24 position of the Caesars. 10:26 >>JAMES: And we saw that in seven churches with Pergamus, 10:28 that the Constatinian era and that morphed into Thyatira and 10:33 we saw Jezebel, but the dark ages, and out of that came 10:36 reformation, so that was kind of in our seven churches. 10:38 >>TY: Okay, so, before I lose the point though that I was 10:40 going for before we fleshed that out, the point I was 10:43 gonna make, and see if you guys feel this, if you see 10:46 this, in Daniel, the fourth beast is the Roman empire and 10:52 the little horn is the papal Roman empire, right, when we 10:56 come to Revelation 13, there's no little horn. 11:00 The composite beast is for what for Daniel was the little 11:04 horn. 11:05 Is that making sense? 11:06 Okay, so the composite beast in Revelation chapter 13 is, 11:11 the Roman empire in the papal phase. 11:13 >>JEFFREY: And we know that because of the characteristics 11:14 or basics are mirrored in chapter 13, there's a 11:17 timeframe given, 42 months in verse 5, that's the same 11:22 allotted time that we've been discussing, 1,260 days and 11:25 when you read in Daniel 7 and in verse 25, you have a 11:29 timeframe there again that matches this timeframe. 11:33 Revelation 13 says that one characteristic is blasphemy. 11:38 We have the same thing in Daniel chapter 7, again. 11:40 We have persecuting power in Revelation 13, we have the 11:44 same thing in Daniel chapter 7 with this little horn. 11:49 So, in other words, it's the same, it's the same power. 11:52 >>TY: The little horn in Daniel and the composite beast 11:54 in Revelation 13 are one and the same power. 11:57 >>DAVID: And as we've mentioned before, what John is 12:00 doing in the book of Revelation is he's borrowing 12:02 from the Old Testament. 12:03 So, when he uses the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the 12:05 seven heads and the ten horns, he's saying, you know, hey, 12:07 hey, pay attention, that whole Daniel thing? 12:10 I'm talking about that. 12:11 So, any first century Jewish reader would've been like, oh, 12:16 oh, this is Daniel's stuff. 12:18 Go back, figure out where you're at, and that's us now. 12:19 So, we just know, it's like a great big arrow, it's a sign 12:23 post. 12:24 Know Daniel. 12:26 Know what's going on. 12:27 >>TY: Now, a crucial point that James already made that I 12:28 wanna emphasize now that we've identified the first beast as 12:32 the Roman empire in the papal phase. 12:35 The crucial point James was making is that the reason it's 12:38 a composite beast is because that beast or that power is a 12:47 conglomeration of cultural, ideological, philosophical, 12:53 theological perspectives and ideas that come from Babylon, 12:59 Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. 13:02 In other words, medieval Christianity is not the 13:06 Christianity that came from Jesus and the apostles. 13:09 Medieval Christianity is a pagan system that is merely 13:16 borrowing some language from Christianity, but if you 13:20 examine the thing itself, the papal Roman system, if you 13:26 examine it, you will find that philosophically and 13:29 theologically, it's mostly Greek, but with Christian 13:33 language. 13:34 You will find that in practice, that it's mostly 13:38 Babylonian ceremonies that are being enacted and Roman 13:43 ceremonies that are being enacted. 13:47 So, this is a crucial point that, is this a good place to 13:53 loop back to the last verses of chapter 12 because what's 13:57 happening here, and again, we've made this point, but I 14:00 think it's just, this for me, answers one of the great 14:05 mysteries of history. 14:08 Because our world today is increasingly more and more 14:12 secular, more and more atheistic on the premise of 14:17 what Christianity, quote unquote, did down through the 14:20 middle ages. 14:22 But this really is quite interesting because we're 14:25 realizing now that the thing that the world is reacting 14:29 against and rejecting really isn't the thing that Jesus and 14:34 the apostles started at all. 14:36 >>JEFFREY: It's the residue of other pagan empires. 14:37 >>TY: So, if you can imagine two parallels, yeah, two 14:41 parallel horizontal lines. 14:43 And the upper horizontal line is the church and the lower 14:48 horizontal line is the church in the wilderness or the 14:51 church being persecuted and pushed into obscurity and it's 14:57 gone underground. 14:59 The thing that the world calls Christianity and nearly all 15:01 the history books is not Christianity at all. 15:06 >>DAVID: In terms of history, you're exactly correct. 15:08 >>TY: So, increasingly, when somebody asks me, are you a 15:10 Christian? 15:12 I pause because I wanna know, well, what do you mean by that? 15:15 Do you mean am I a Christian in the imperial Rome sense, in 15:20 the Constatinian sense, am I a Christian in the sense of the 15:24 Crusades? 15:25 No. 15:26 Am I a follower of Jesus? 15:29 Yes. 15:30 >>DAVID: But there's a lot of people that don't make the 15:32 distinction. 15:34 The idea that there is a distinction would strike a lot 15:39 of moderns as strange. 15:41 Right? 15:43 I mean, that there would be a divorce, that's a fascinating 15:46 word, between Christianity and Christ. 15:51 I say it's a fascinating word because Paul uses that word to 15:55 describe this very thing in 2 Thessalonians, which we're not 15:57 going into right now, but that there's a disconnect. 16:00 >>JEFFREY: The world says, I love Jesus but I hate 16:02 Christians, basically. 16:04 >>DAVID: Because the paints that have been used to paint 16:08 Christianity are the paints of the historical career of 16:13 Christianity through the medieval period which is 16:15 persecution, manipulation, coercion, what amounts to 16:18 money laundering, I mean, it's an ugly portrait and it does 16:23 not bear any resemblance to Jesus, to the church that 16:27 Jesus established, or to Jesus himself. 16:28 >>TY: We have a popular bumper sticker that I've seen around 16:31 town here in Eugene, OR it's very insightful, it says, Jesus 16:36 called the other day, said he wants his religion back. 16:39 There's a lot of insight in that because that bumper 16:41 sticker is essentially realizing that there's Jesus 16:47 and then Jesus's religion has been coocted, it's been 16:51 hijacked. 16:52 It's like there's this plane called Christianity, and 16:56 somebody's in the cockpit running the thing and it's not 17:00 Jesus, but it's called Christianity. 17:03 Because, if you think about it, right now, we're entering 17:05 in an election season and you see the candidates want to lay 17:10 claim to the Christian vote, so in laying claim to the 17:13 Christian vote, they're lining themselves up with what they 17:18 think Christians wanna hear and some of the things 17:22 Christians want to hear are not the kinds of things that 17:25 are in the teachings of Jesus. 17:27 Christians in the Jesus and the apostolic sense aren't 17:32 about building up a military, and yet, Christianity has been 17:37 increasingly, in American politics, identified with 17:41 military strength. 17:42 >>JEFFREY: And the politicizing of Christianity 17:44 is one of the characteristics that were given for this 17:47 system. 17:49 >>TY: The what? 17:50 >>JAMES: The politicizing. 17:51 >>JEFFREY: The politicizing of Christianity is, in itself, 17:54 one of the characteristics that we're given to identify, 17:57 to distinguish the Jesus... 18:00 >>TY: Someone asked, is Jesus a Republican or a Democrat? 18:04 And for some people, there's just an assumption that he's 18:06 one or the other. 18:07 I said, he's neither. 18:09 He doesn't identify with any political party. 18:13 Jesus is above all of that with a totally different kind 18:17 of kingdom, and his church was established as a church with a 18:22 message that reaches the heart, not as a civil system 18:25 that forces the conscience. 18:27 And that's what this is getting at. 18:29 >>JAMES: I'd like to touch on this a little more, but we're 18:31 out of time, but there's a point here that I think we 18:33 could really flesh out and get somewhere with, just to 18:36 confirm everything we've just says, in verse 2, it says, and 18:39 the dragon gave him his power, his seat, and great authority, 18:45 and I think it would be very much worthwhile for us and 18:48 those listening, for us to go through the text of Revelation 18:51 15 and even spill back to 12 and the last part of this that 18:56 we're not hitting, not to, before we even identify the 18:58 verses, and just look at the characteristics of the dragon, 19:04 the characteristics. 19:05 For example, let me give you an example. 19:06 The characteristic, one of the characteristics that we look 19:08 at is, in Revelation chapter 12 and verse 11, it says, the 19:13 dragon is an accuser. 19:16 Because we're talking here about the principles of 19:18 Christianity, true Christianity and false 19:21 Christianity and the layers. 19:22 And many times, we think about that in relation to doctrines, 19:26 which are significant and important, doctrines are 19:28 important. 19:29 But underlying the doctrines, when we look at the culture 19:31 and the philosophy of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, 19:34 and how it's trickled into the Christian church today, we 19:36 wanna look at it in the sense of character. 19:39 What kind of characteristics has the dragon bequeathed to 19:44 this church and how does that contrast with the 19:46 characteristics of the Lamb. 19:49 There's a verse here, verse 10, for example, talks about 19:51 going into captivity and being led into captivity and killing 19:54 with a sword and being killed by the sword. 19:55 There are other characteristics that are 19:57 identified that the spirit of the dragon, and I think it 20:00 would be very helpful because then, our viewers, and each 20:03 one of us, can say, you know what, the real issue here is 20:06 not just doctrine and what we're teaching, the real issue 20:08 is, is the character of the Lamb and the character of the 20:11 dragon. 20:12 The spirit of the Lamb and the spirit of the dragon. 20:14 >>TY: So, let's do that. 20:15 As you mentioned, we have to take a break and then, when we 20:17 come back, let's just systematically move through 20:19 the passage. 20:20 >>JAMES: Sounds good. 20:22 [Music] 20:34 >>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson, welcome to digma.com. 20:36 I am so excited about this website because you're about 20:40 to discover a powerful new way to share life transforming 20:44 messages and videos with your family, friends, and anybody 20:47 else on the planet who has access to a computer. 20:51 Digma is a Greek word. 20:53 It basically means, to show or to reveal something by means 20:57 of a pattern or an example of some kind. 20:59 It's the second half of the word paradigma, from which we 21:04 get the English word paradigm, as in paradigm shift. 21:08 And so, what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 21:11 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 21:14 paradigms and fundamental questions. 21:18 What's the meaning of life? 21:20 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 21:24 What happens when we die? 21:26 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 21:30 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 21:34 An estimated 70% of Americans have a computer right in their 21:39 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email, 21:43 and more than 400 million people are active on Facebook, 21:48 and 5 million new users are signing up every week. 21:52 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution 21:57 of massive proportion. 21:59 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 22:04 millions upon millions of homes and hearts, and that's 22:09 what digma.com is all about. 22:12 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 22:16 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 22:20 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 22:24 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about 22:29 who God is. 22:31 [Music] 22:48 >>TY: James, before the break, you said, essentially, 22:51 let's begin to systematically walk through the passage. 22:53 We did verses 1 and 2 and what we did in verses 1 and 2 of 23:00 Revelation 13 is we identified the beast. 23:02 The beast from the sea, the composite beast is equivalent 23:07 to Daniel's little horn power. 23:09 It's the Roman empire, papal phase, the medieval church, 23:12 we've identified that. 23:13 But when we come to verse 3, it says, I saw one of his 23:16 heads as if it had been mortally wounded and his 23:21 deadly wound was healed, and all the world marveled, or 23:25 another version says, wondered after the beast and followed 23:30 the beast. 23:31 So, if this is the medieval church, if this is the Roman 23:34 empire at the papal phase, we're being told, in bible 23:37 prophecy here, that that system will, in some sense, be 23:40 wounded, but then, that wound will be healed. 23:43 Is there historical evidence that the papal Roman empire, 23:51 the medieval church was, in fact, in some sense, wounded 23:54 and then healed? 23:57 >>JEFFREY: Somebody else can talk about the healing, but 23:59 the wounding, again, traces back to chapter 11, where we 24:05 read that there would be this power that would rise up and 24:10 we identified that as the French Revolution, right, and 24:13 in that era, as this power in France rose up against 24:18 Christianity, against the church, because of the 24:20 misrepresentation, it, the target was the church. 24:24 >>TY: So, be more specific, what exactly happened 24:27 historically that wounded the church? 24:29 >>JEFFREY: Well, under Napoleon, the pope was 24:31 basically unseated in 1798. 24:35 >>JAMES: February 1798. 24:36 >>TY: Now, why is the 1798 date significant because we 24:39 never defined that 1260 year period. 24:42 >>JEFFREY: But we've been going back to it over and over 24:44 because that's that period, we ran into in chapter 12, 1,260 24:48 days, it's the period in chapter 11, and from the rise 24:52 of this medieval system we've been talking about, 538, the 24:56 year 538, that period of 1260 years up until what we've just 25:03 mention, 1798. 25:04 So, that's the period of this medieval ascendency that we've 25:08 been talking about. 25:09 >>TY: You can even come at it backwards and you can say, 25:10 well, it says that the papal system would be wounded and 25:14 history tells us that that occurred in 1798 and if you 25:17 count back from there, 1260 years, because a day equals a 25:21 year in bible prophecy, you come to 538, you can come at 25:24 it from that way and ask, well, what happened then? 25:27 >>DAVID: You're onto it. 25:28 >>JEFFREY: Same thing. 25:30 >>DAVID: The period here, we should say... 25:34 >>TY: What did happen then? 25:35 >>DAVID: I think we covered that, so basically, 25:37 Napoleon... 25:38 >>TY: No, in 538, though, what's the 538 date? 25:41 >>JEFFREY: The pope is granted civil authority, not just 25:47 ecclesiastical power, he's got civil power. 25:51 >>TY: So, we have two bookends, we have 538, 1798, 25:54 this is the point that I think we need to make clear is, that 25:56 1260 year period of time begins in 538 with the papacy 26:01 being granted full-fledged civil authority. 26:05 >>JEFFREY: Church and state unite. 26:06 >>DAVID: Let me just say a word about that, just to set a 26:09 larger historical context for our listeners and for us. 26:11 Remember that what's happened is, you have Christianity, you 26:16 have the ascension of Jesus, the apostolic movement, that's 26:17 ending at the end of the first century, so AD 100. 26:20 You then have AD200-300 which is a period variously of some 26:25 peace, some persecution, but largely where the church is 26:27 sort of trending upward, right? 26:30 Then, you have the conversion of Constantine, AD 312, which 26:33 we've talked about the Constantinian era. 26:36 From the time of Constantine, who was the first of the Roman 26:38 Christian emperors, it's only a very short period, 26:41 relatively, to the demise of the Roman empire, AD 476. 26:46 You go from 312 to 476, like 160 years. 26:49 So, this is like the last gasp of Rome in its pagan phase. 26:56 By the time we get to AD 476 with the dissolution of Rome, 27:00 the fragmenting of the western Roman empire, now, the big 27:03 question is, okay, what is the unifying force? 27:06 >>TY: What's gonna fill the vacuum? 27:07 >>DAVID: What keeps Rome, what keeps it, and the, no, not 27:12 homogenizing, the adhering, gluing property, the thing 27:18 that made Rome unified in any sense was not now a political 27:22 or a strong federal government, it was the church. 27:25 So, you start looking to church leaders for various 27:29 ecclesiastical positions. 27:31 So, if you go from AD 476 to AD 538, that's just a very 27:36 short period of confusion and hey, who's in charge here? 27:42 And there is a story there, the story goes back to, after 27:44 the conversion of Constantine in AD 312, in AD 330, he moves 27:49 the seat of the western Roman empire from Rome to what we 27:54 call Istanbul, but Constantinople, literally, 27:56 City of Constantine, and he more or less leaves the bishop 27:59 of Rome kind of in charge of, not just the churches, but 28:04 hey, you sort of oversee things here. 28:06 So, there was already a trajectory for the bishop of 28:09 Rome to be viewed as a significant figure in a civil 28:15 sense. 28:16 After the demise of Rome in AD 476, he rises into that 28:22 position, naturally, and by the time we get to AD 538, 28:27 you're saying, the tarmac, so to speak, is cleared. 28:29 All those other flights have gone. 28:30 There's nothing now preventing the rise of the papal Roman 28:35 empire. 28:36 >>JEFFREY: And even the titles just get handed off, granted. 28:39 >>DAVID: So, I don't know if I did a good job there, but 28:41 trying to paint, how did we get here? 28:44 >>TY: So, 538, as Jeffrey was pointing out, you just gave 28:47 the background, 538 is that point in history when the 28:54 papal church begins to occupy civil position. 29:01 >>DAVID: Officially. 29:01 It already had that inclination from the 29:04 Constantinian time, but yeah, now, it's like, hey, the road 29:07 is clear, and there's no other... 29:09 >>TY: It was just handed over. 29:10 >>DAVID: You got it. 29:11 >>TY: So, 538, and then, you count forward 1260 years, 29:14 which this prophecy is mentioned repeatedly. 29:17 >>DAVID: Seven times in scripture. 29:18 >>TY: Seven times. 29:19 That 1260 year period, if you count forward, you come to 29:23 1798, from 538 to 1798 and that's where you were pointing 29:28 out that Napoleon, French Revolution, takes the pope 29:31 captive, off the papal throne, puts him in exile, he dies in 29:35 exile, the pope does, and that is the inflicting of the 29:40 deadly wound that's brought to view in verse 3, but then, it 29:45 says, the deadly wound was healed. 29:49 So, what's with that? 29:51 ->>DAVID: Well, I think we should say that, the reason, 29:53 Napoleon wasn't just like, hey, what am I gonna do this 29:55 afternoon? 29:57 You know, I think I'll go take the pope off of his throne. 29:58 This was a pendulous response. 30:02 Basically, where France was overreacting, not 30:06 overreacting, reacting in a very radical way, against 30:09 centuries of papal abuse and coercion and manipulation over 30:14 all of the, Europe is now coalesced and solidified into 30:17 countries like Germany, France, England, it wasn't 30:21 like that going back, you had regional powers and empires, 30:26 but over time, over this period of about 1,000 years, 30:29 you have the rise of nationalism. 30:32 So, before, the church was the unifying force in what we 30:37 today call Europe, right? 30:39 But over time, the Germans and the German language and the 30:42 German borders become increasingly defined. 30:45 So, too, with France, so, too, with the other nations of 30:47 Europe and this nationalism is like, hey, why do we care what 30:52 this guy that sits on a throne down in Rome? 30:55 We don't care about him, we care about German things, we 30:57 care about French things, we care about English things, we 30:59 care about Spanish things. 31:01 And the country that was tipped over in the most 31:04 dramatic fashion was France and they're like, okay, 31:07 Napoleon's like, I'm over it, I'm over him, I'm over the 31:10 church, I'm over all this superstition, and they 31:12 launched, back in Revelation 11, the French Revolution. 31:17 The papacy and the pope was a casualty of their own devices. 31:22 They created a situation that then, like, they created a 31:25 Frankenstein and then Frankenstein came and 31:28 basically inflicted a deadly wound. 31:31 >>JEFFREY: Well, verse 3 does say that eventually, that 31:33 deadly wound would be healed. 31:35 And so, now, we're entering another stage, like early 1920s. 31:40 And it suggested in the text, 'cause it's abrupt. 31:44 And it was healed. 31:46 >>DAVID: That same verse. 31:47 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, so another political, you know, figure 31:50 steps in, in Mousseline now, grants, regrants power to the 31:53 papal system in the early 1920s and now we have a 31:57 resurgence. 31:59 >>TY: But that's not an immediate, it's healed now in 32:04 1929 by Mousseline giving back the property. 32:08 >>JEFFREY: We have a process now. 32:10 >>TY: So, this healing is a process. 32:11 It's not a... 32:13 >>JAMES: You see that thing on my finger? 32:14 >>TY: Looks like a wound that's undergoing healing. 32:17 >>JAMES: Yeah, it's undergoing healing. 32:18 I just sliced straight into a piece of metal. 32:21 >>TY: Did you have to use that word? 32:23 >>JAMES: And the thing is, is when I sliced into that piece 32:24 of metal, the flesh showed, it was just flesh. 32:28 And here's the deal, at night, when I was sleeping, it would 32:32 heal over, you know, on my knuckle. 32:35 When I would wake up in the morning, I would go like this, 32:37 oh, it would hurt, so I would leave it like this, but you 32:39 know, inevitably, you're doing stuff and you're not able to 32:42 be conscious and so, it would break open again and that went 32:45 on and on and on. 32:46 When we're talking about a deadly wound, we're talking 32:49 about something that's much more significant than a little 32:50 slice on a knuckle. 32:52 We're talking about something that almost brings you to 32:54 death and so, to say that that wound is healed in this year 32:58 or with this act or with this act. 32:59 It's been progressive. 33:00 Even Napoleon began to heal that wound. 33:07 Though he did take the crown out of the pope's hand and put 33:09 it on his own head, he allowed the pope to come into that 33:11 ceremony, he allowed the bible to again be acknowledged as a 33:15 book that doesn't have to be burned in the street. 33:17 And so, this healing has progressively gotten more and 33:21 more to the place where it's being restored to what it once 33:25 was, and we still, we still are not living in a time when 33:28 that wound is to be completely healed. 33:29 >>JEFFREY: We're still living in that process. 33:31 >>JAMES: That is predicted in the rest of Revelation chapter 33:35 13. 33:36 We're gonna see that wound completely healed in the 33:37 context of these verses. 33:38 >>TY: So, it's symbolic language that essentially, 33:41 when it says that the papal power was wounded and the 33:44 deadly wound was healed, we're really saying, what the bible 33:47 is saying is that the papacy was taken out of political 33:52 power, but it will gradually be restored to political 33:56 power. 33:57 That's what this language is telling us. 33:59 >>JAMES: And it tells us this language in a really 34:00 interesting way. 34:01 It says that, in the context of this, all the world is 34:04 going to wonder. 34:05 All the world is gonna be amazed, all the world is gonna 34:07 be looking on. 34:09 So, here is this system that was once despised, at least in 34:12 France, by a people that learned of the real inner 34:16 workings of this religious atrocity, and as they looked at 34:20 all this stuff that was taking place, that they thought was 34:23 light and good and represented God, but it didn't, it was just 34:26 atrocious and ugly and sick. 34:28 They stood back and they overreacted, because not only 34:32 did they rebel against that system, but they rebelled 34:34 against the bible, they rebelled against God, and 34:36 we're still living in that environment today, we're still 34:40 living in that environment, and so, then, there's gonna be 34:42 a recovery, there's gonna be a recovery and people are gonna 34:45 forget the atrocity and the darkness and the evil and the 34:48 wickedness, or even in the face, in the light of some of 34:51 that wickedness, which we see taking place in relation to 34:54 some of the doctrines and teachings as eternal burning 34:57 in hell or you know, the priesthood in relation to, you 35:01 know, the abuse that takes place because you're forbidden 35:04 to marry, you're forbidden to marry, even in the light of 35:06 all that, people are still going to admire the leader of 35:10 this system and the system itself is going to have 35:13 recognition from political powers, and so, we see that 35:16 being predicted in this verse. 35:18 All the world is gonna wonder and they're gonna say, who can 35:20 make war against that power? 35:23 Who can speak badly of that power? 35:25 And I think, really, if you analyze it, we're kind of 35:27 living in that time. 35:30 >>DAVID: Certainly. 35:31 >>JAMES: When even now, with all the history of the dark 35:33 ages, and all the history of what's happening today, even 35:34 now, people are thinking, no, wait a minute, this leader of 35:37 this system is, this is a great guy. 35:40 >>DAVID: And there's a general ignorance about the past. 35:42 You know, those that don't know the past are doomed to 35:44 repeat it. 35:45 And there's this whole spirit of hey, that was a long time 35:48 ago, things have changed, everything's fine, coupled 35:51 with an ignorance of the fact that, it wasn't just like a 35:54 few people that were killed, we're talking hundreds of 35:57 thousands, millions of people, killed by the church for not 36:02 following the specific doctrinal and ecclesiastical 36:07 dictates of the church. 36:08 This is millions of people. 36:10 >>JEFFREY: And, of course, many of the actual members had 36:12 nothing to do with that, we're talking leadership, we're 36:14 talking the system. 36:15 >>TY: It's without the question the greatest crime 36:18 against humanity in the history of the world. 36:21 What the Christian church did to the world in the name of 36:24 Jesus through the ages, later on in Revelation, it 36:29 summarizes this by saying that she, this power, is the mother 36:33 of all the abominations of the earth. 36:36 Now, you can say, well, that's exaggerating for effect, or 36:39 you can say, wait a minute, this thing was so diabolical, 36:43 that it produced all kinds of horrible political and 36:46 religious and social effects, and that's what's being 36:50 described. 36:51 But I do wanna clarify something, I think you guys 36:55 will agree with this. 36:59 James said, you know, that people were under the 37:01 impression that he, you're referring to the head of the 37:03 system, the pope is a great guy, he seems to be a great 37:07 guy. 37:08 I would have a spaghetti dinner with him. 37:11 I mean, he seems like a great guy. 37:13 So, what we're describing, what the bible is describing 37:15 here has very little to do with any given person's 37:20 personality and whether or not he's a great guy. 37:23 He very well could be a great guy, he could be an honest 37:26 guy. 37:27 We would hope that he would be, but the passage is 37:31 describing a system that this person is heading up and so, 37:38 there are fundamental things that are wrong with a system 37:42 that represents Christ, represents God by a marriage 37:48 of civil and religious power. 37:50 That's a deadly combination. 37:52 It's a deadly combination because, it's a beast, it can 37:55 only produce one of two effects, to combine religion 37:59 and politics, to combine a civil power with its military 38:05 and its laws with a religious power can only produce one of 38:08 two effects, either unbelief, atheism, or... 38:14 >>DAVID: That's what happened in the case with France. 38:16 >>TY: Or religious enslavement. 38:18 But there's one thing that it can't produce. 38:20 It can't produce genuine, voluntary love for God. 38:25 >>DAVID: Or doesn't lend itself to that. 38:28 >>TY: It can only, well, there are people in the system who 38:31 do love God, but they love God in spite of the system, not 38:35 because of the system. 38:36 The system itself, that doctrinal system and that 38:39 combination of church and state cannot produce anything 38:43 but the reaction of unbelief or a slavish kind of worship. 38:50 And there are lots of wonderful people who do love 38:53 God in the system, but again, they love God in spite of the 38:57 system because they're overlooking it, because 38:59 they're looking past it, because they're not thinking 39:00 too long and hard about it. 39:02 >>JEFFREY: But even people who are not in that system, but 39:04 are in other systems can still have the mentality of that 39:08 system. 39:09 >>TY: Including you and me. 39:09 >>JEFFREY: Including us. 39:10 Yeah. 39:11 >>TY: so, we have to take a break, again, we don't like 39:15 taking breaks, but we have to take a break and then we'll 39:17 come back and we'll see if we can finish Revelation 13, I 39:21 don't know if we can. 39:23 >>DAVID: Well, at least we can get through verse 10, 39:25 don't you think? 39:26 >>TY: We'll do our best. 39:30 [Music] 39:38 Announcer: Digma videos are short, engaging messages 39:41 designed for opening up discussion with individuals 39:43 and groups regarding the character of God as well 39:47 as for your own personal spiritual growth. 39:50 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos, 39:53 call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 39:58 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:04 Once again, for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 40:07 videos, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 40:14 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 40:20 Simply ask for Digma DVD 2. 40:23 [Music] 40:27 >>TY: Well, Revelation 13 is heavy, I mean, really heavy, 40:33 because it requires us to look at actual history and to do 40:38 some identifying of powers that have been active in 40:43 history. 40:44 And while we wanna be sensitive, the passage is 40:48 telling us something. 40:50 The passage is telling us that there is a power in history 40:52 that fulfilled these characteristics, but it's the 40:57 system we're dealing with, not any given individual in the 41:00 system. 41:01 >>JEFFREY: So, the bible's not vague, the chapter's not 41:03 vague, it's willing to get to the nitty gritty, to real 41:08 life. 41:09 >>DAVID: So, what do you think of this idea? 41:10 Tell me if you like this, you might not like it, we're all 41:12 Americans, so, right? 41:14 American citizens. 41:15 So, a number of years ago, you travel, all of us travel 41:18 internationally. 41:19 And in the presidency, during the time, this is my 41:22 experience, travelling internationally, in the time 41:25 of the presidency of George Bush, not the first George 41:28 Bush, but George W. Bush. 41:30 Man, it seems like almost everywhere I go, particularly 41:33 in the wake of the Iraq war, man, people would go out of 41:37 their way, when they found out I was an American to be like, 41:40 I do not like George Bush. 41:43 And I would be like, well, he's not my uncle, he's not my 41:46 dad, so, here's the point, my point is this, there is a 41:51 whole system that is the United States of America. 41:54 There is a person at the head, now it's Barak Obama, we're on 41:56 the verge of having a new president, but there is a 41:59 giant system underneath that, so much so that the guy at the 42:02 top, or girl, woman, actually could be a reasonable human 42:07 being, like you say, somebody you'd sit down with, have 42:09 lunch, talk about you know, basketball, baseball or 42:11 whatever, but there is this giant system underneath. 42:14 We're talking you know, the United States is a young 42:16 nation. 42:17 Just over 200 years. 42:19 The medieval church has been around, we're talking 8538 and 42:22 even prior to that, the mechanacians over there, we're 42:25 talking about a system that's been around for more than a 42:28 millennium. 42:29 Fifteen centuries, 16, 17 centuries. 42:33 You've got systems that are built, systems on systems and 42:36 systems on systems that are built into that, that you 42:41 actually could have a person at the top who could be 42:43 somebody that might himself be a reasonable human being, but, 42:47 and certainly let's be clear about this, whether or not he 42:50 is a reasonable human being is quite beside the point, he's a 42:52 child for who, he's somebody for whom Jesus died. 42:57 He's a human being, he's somebody for whom Jesus died. 42:58 >>JEFFREY: Somebody, a great system could have a not so 43:02 great leader. 43:04 So, at the end of the day, it's the system, right? 43:08 >>DAVID: So, the point that I'm making here is that I 43:09 would not be the least bit offended as an American if 43:12 somebody was like, hey, there are things in American history 43:15 that I am greatly ashamed of. 43:17 In American history. 43:19 The treatment of the native peoples, the indigenous 43:22 peoples of the United States, the broken treaty after broken 43:25 treaty after broken treaty, that is, slavery, right? 43:29 These are things that you don't look back and say, you 43:31 know, I'm just so proud to be an American, you say, I don't 43:35 like that, that is not who I am, even though I am an 43:39 American citizen. 43:41 >>TY: The principles upon which the nation was founded, 43:45 you agree with, but the abuses of and the violations of those 43:51 principles, yeah. 43:53 >>DAVID: And I wouldn't be the least bit offended if somebody 43:54 said to me, hey, look, I got some real reservations about 43:57 America, my response would be, so do I. 44:00 So do I. 44:03 And that may or may not be a reflection on the specific 44:06 person, a Carter, a Nixon, an Obama, a Bush, that's in the 44:09 White House at that moment. 44:11 So, I'm not talking about people and individuals, we're 44:13 talking about a system, a nation, a power. 44:16 >>TY: I like the illustration, I do. 44:18 I think it makes a lot of sense and it helps us to be 44:21 reasonable and fair and to not, we do not subscribe to or 44:28 participate in any form of hate. 44:31 >>JAMES: And really, the original point that we were 44:34 talking about, or at least I was talking about is in the 44:36 text. 44:38 Everything we're saying is in the text. 44:39 The text themselves tell us how bad the system is, so bad 44:43 that it's blaspheming God, so bad that it's seeking to 44:47 persecute God's people, etcetera, and yet, at the same 44:50 time, the text says that all the world wonders after this 44:53 system, and all the world says, who's like unto him who 44:55 can make war with him? 44:57 So, what we're identifying is the two aspects of this one 45:00 system. 45:01 So, really, everything we've said just nails the coffin. 45:05 It just makes it very, very clear that this is the very 45:07 system that is identified in bible prophecy. 45:10 And we've looked at the history, of course, but the 45:12 characteristics that we're outlining here perfectly match 45:16 the system that is being identified. 45:18 >>TY: Yeah, and that's the point, that's the point. 45:20 >>DAVID: So, verse 4, you mentioned, Ty, this is heavy, 45:25 verse 4 gets super-duper heavy, notice I threw a duper 45:29 on top of it. 45:31 Because, so it says, so they worshipped the dragon. 45:33 Well, we've already identified the dragon as the devil. 45:36 This gets kinda dodgy. 45:38 So, they worshipped the devil? 45:40 You know, devil worship, that's really unsettling, who 45:43 gave authority to the beast and they worshipped the beast 45:45 saying, and you've quoted this a couple times, James, who is 45:47 like the beast, who is able to make war with him? 45:49 So, you have this wild idea here, scripture's basically 45:53 saying, so, the dragon, who we just were introduced to in 45:56 chapter 12, gave this power his authority and his position 46:03 and so now, when people get caught up with the dragon, or 46:07 excuse me, with this power, they're really getting caught 46:10 up with this larger thing that's taking back in 46:13 Revelation chapter 12 with this war that broke out in 46:15 heaven. 46:16 They're participating in a way of viewing God and a way of 46:18 viewing religion that is not Christ like, it's dragon like. 46:26 >>TY: So, people are unwittingly worshipping the 46:31 devil by their allegiance to this system that operates on 46:36 the principles of the, they don't even know. 46:41 Let me show you a passage where Jesus got to the heart 46:45 of this in John chapter 16. 46:48 I find this passage very helpful to understand the 46:52 dynamic that's going on here in the Revelation 13 passage. 46:55 In chapter 16 of John, starting with verse 2, Jesus 47:02 is speaking and he's projecting forward to a time 47:05 of persecution, and he says they, whoever they are, will 47:09 put you out of the synagogue, yes, the time is coming when 47:13 whoever kills you will think, will think that he offers 47:20 God's service, he will think that he's offering, by killing 47:25 you, he will think that he's doing God's service. 47:27 Now, here's the key. 47:28 Verse 3, and these things, they will do to you because 47:34 they have not known the Father nor me. 47:38 Isn't that a powerful passage? 47:40 >>JEFFREY: Misunderstanding of what God's all about and his 47:42 character leads people to behave in ways that are 47:44 totally contrary to what God is like. 47:46 >>TY: But it says they think they're serving God, and this 47:49 is by the way, Jesus is right here in chapter 16, he's 47:55 looking back to something, a conversation he began in 47:58 chapter 8. 48:00 >>DAVID: Look at this, I literally just went back to 48:02 John 8, like, waiting, yeah. 48:03 >>TY: So, in chapter 8, Jesus is essentially saying to a 48:07 religious body of people, a group of religious leaders, 48:10 he's essentially saying to them, hey, you're plotting my 48:14 murder, you're about to kill me, you say that you're 48:18 Abraham's seed and that you're sons of God, but the fact is 48:23 that you are of your father, the devil, who's been a 48:28 murderer from the beginning. 48:29 So, that's taking us back to this great controversy theme 48:32 of revelation chapter 12. 48:34 >>DAVID: The idea of murder, violence, coercion, and in the 48:37 name of God. 48:38 >>TY: In the name of God. 48:39 >>JEFFREY: You remember when Jesus said to Peter, when 48:41 Peter's approaching him and Jesus is talking about his 48:43 death and Jesus says, get thee behind me, Satan. 48:47 >>DAVID: It's not like he was literally Satan. 48:48 >>TY: Satan works through human beings and human 48:50 systems. 48:51 >>JEFFREY: He's looking past the individual to the system 48:54 under which that individual is being influenced. 48:58 >>DAVID: And when Jesus says, in John 8 there, you are of 49:00 your father, the devil, he's not literally saying 49:02 genetically, biologically, you're the descendant, he's 49:05 saying, you're operating like he operates. 49:08 He's a warmonger, he's violence, manipulation, 49:12 coercion. 49:13 >>TY: And you mentioned earlier, the passages in the 49:15 Old Testament, the Satanic passages, one of them is 49:18 Ezekiel 28 and that's a passage in which one of the 49:22 identifying marks of the devil is that there's violence in 49:27 his heart. 49:28 Now, this is before any actual violence is acted out. 49:32 But Ezekiel's passage says that violence is at the root 49:35 of his character and then, that violence comes out in the 49:40 way he treats Jesus, the cross is the manifestation of that. 49:45 >>JEFFREY: So, when it says in Revelation 13, they will 49:47 worship the dragon, we're not really imagining millions of 49:51 people doing this in front of someone with a pitchfork and 49:55 horns. 49:56 >>DAVID: You and I can worship the dragon. 49:58 If we conduct ourselves in a way that is consistent with 50:01 the principles of Satan's kingdom, particularly if we 50:04 did it in the name of God, which, by the way, we should 50:06 say that the medieval church does not have a monopoly on 50:10 perverting the name of God, that can happen in any church. 50:14 Jesus identified it as happening in the Jewish 50:17 system, hey, you are of your father, the devil. 50:19 And generally, that violence verse, for our viewers, is 50:22 verse 16 of Ezekiel 28. 50:26 So, we should say here that the principle, there is this 50:29 giant system that's been operating through history and 50:32 the Christian era that has embodied and systematized, you 50:37 wrote a great article on this, ty, systematized this way of 50:41 doing religion. 50:43 But that doesn't mean they have a copyright on it, 50:45 doesn't mean that they're the only ones that can behave. 50:47 >>TY: You can go so far as to say that it's in human nature 50:53 and that religious system, using force and violence in 50:57 God's name, is just a corporate expression of what's 51:02 going on in all of our hearts, according to the apostle Paul 51:05 in Romans 8, he says, that the human heart, yours and mine is 51:09 at enmity against God and God's law. 51:13 So, that enmity that's in my heart, if I get together and 51:17 start a religious system with you, Jeffrey, and then we 51:20 baptize James and then we baptize David and we can make 51:24 a church that is simply the corporate manifestation of our 51:30 enmity against God, but we call it serving God, like 51:34 Jesus said. 51:35 >>JEFFREY: So, this is important because again, in 51:37 verse 4, they worshipped a dragon, it's subtle. 51:41 >>TY: They're worshipping a dragon in principle. 51:43 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, yeah, it's subtle, it's not, it gets 51:47 trivialized. 51:48 >>JAMES: Something else that David said really makes sense 51:49 here, too, and that is that they don't have a copyright on 51:53 this and the reason that's important is because, in verse 51:56 4, again, it's talking about, or in verse 3 again, it's 52:00 talking about how the whole world will wonder, why would 52:02 the whole world wonder after this religious system? 52:05 Well, because they have the same principles. 52:08 The beast of Revelation 13 is the corporate manifestation of 52:12 individuals and whatever religion they're in, even if 52:15 they're not in a religion, it's the corporate 52:17 manifestation of the human heart. 52:19 Right. 52:21 >>JEFFREY: You're identifying something they're familiar 52:22 with. 52:23 They say, wait a second, that's how I roll. 52:24 >>JAMES: Something developing, that's my MO, that's the way I 52:27 am. 52:28 >>TY: And that's at a subconscious level, usually, 52:30 isn't it? 52:32 You don't even know why you're attracted to even a political 52:34 party. 52:35 >>JAMES: Exactly, another point. 52:36 >>DAVID: So, verse 5 says that he, this power, was given a 52:39 mouth, speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was 52:42 given the authority to continue for 42 months. 52:43 That verse should be really clear to us now because we've 52:45 talked about the blasphemy thing from Daniel, the 42 52:47 months is the 1260, yeah, we've done that, the 538 to 52:50 1798. 52:51 We've done a lot of the background so we can, you can 52:54 actually move through these fairly readily. 52:56 >>TY: Just read through, David, verses 6-10 and let's 52:58 just unpack it. 53:00 >>DAVID: Okay, then, he opened his mouth in blasphemy against 53:01 God, to blaspheme his name, his tabernacle and those who 53:03 dwell in heaven. 53:04 >>TY: That's Daniel 7 and 8. 53:05 >>DAVID: That's Daniel 7 and 8. 53:07 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to 53:08 overcome them and authority was given him over every 53:10 tribe, tongue, and nation, persecution, verse 8. 53:12 >>TY: The church using violence in God's name. 53:16 >>DAVID: And all who dwell on the earth will worship him 53:19 whose names have not been written in the book of life, 53:20 of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 53:23 >>JAMES: Talking about the principles right there. 53:25 The contrast, the principles of Lamb-likeness, the 53:28 principles of others-centered, self-giving, there's the 53:30 contrast between the two. 53:31 >>DAVID: And the Lamb is showing up here, good point. 53:33 Or, yeah, the Lamb is showing up here, some 26 times in 53:36 Revelation. 53:37 This is a contrast, it's a war of principles. 53:39 Verse 9. 53:41 If anybody has an ear, let him hear. 53:43 That's straight out of, you hear that a lot in Revelation, 53:46 it's like listen with discernment, listen with your 53:48 heart, pray for the Spirit that you actually get what's 53:51 going on here. 53:52 And then, verse 10 is, the climax of this section of 53:57 scripture, he who leads into captivity will go into 54:00 captivity, he who kills with the sword must be killed with 54:03 the sword, here is the patience and faith of the 54:06 saints. 54:06 >>TY: That's a crucial passage. 54:08 >>JAMES: It is. 54:09 >>DAVID: That is the fulcrum passage that tips us into the 54:11 next beast that we'll encounter in our next session, 54:14 but we've talked about the idea of the lion's den. 54:17 Hey, we're gonna get Daniel in there, they end up in it. 54:18 Hey, we're gonna have this fire and we're gonna throw 54:22 Shaddarach, Meshach, and Abednego into it, and then, 54:23 the people that try to throw them in get killed. 54:25 Ecclesiastes, whatever the passage was there, you dig a 54:27 pit, you fall into it. 54:28 You break through a wall, you get bit by a serpent. 54:30 >>TY: You operate by principles of force and that 54:33 force reacts upon you because people treat you the way you 54:38 treat them, that tends to be the pattern. 54:41 >>DAVID: You think about the instability in the world 54:44 today, whether you're talking instability in Europe, you're 54:46 talking about instability in Africa, or even South America, 54:50 coups. 54:51 Hey, we can do it better than that government, and then, 54:53 those powers that come in operate by the same 54:55 principles, and then you just wait another, what is it? 54:56 Five years, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is in that 54:58 particular country, another coup, another coup, another 55:01 coup, and the country is sadly, tragically, in many of 55:04 these areas of the world, that have stability are ones where 55:07 the dictator's strong enough to squash any potential 55:11 rebellion or uprising. 55:13 but that's your point, Ty. 55:16 There's nothing redemptive taking place, or there's 55:18 nothing new, there's nothing novel. 55:20 So, when Jesus shows up and it's like, hey, we're gonna do 55:22 harm to you, he's like, alright, do it. 55:27 It's a whole new way of doing reality. 55:30 It's a whole new way of doing leadership. 55:34 >>TY: There's more power in forgiveness and love than 55:37 there is in force. 55:39 That's the point. 55:41 Final point, though, in the 30 seconds that remain, here is 55:44 the patience and the faith of the saints. 55:48 I don't know if you guys see this or not, but I think what 55:49 that's saying is, the whole world is operating by the 55:52 tit for tat, violence for violence system, but the 55:56 saints, they patiently endure in the face of that system by not 56:01 participating in it and that loops back to chapter 12 and 56:06 verse 11, they loved not their lives to the point of death. 56:11 So, we'll just close on that note and come back and 56:13 continue with chapter 13. 56:15 [Music] 56:18 continue with chapter 13. |
Revised 2018-01-16