[Music]
00:00:00.53\00:00:10.57
[Music]
00:00:10.57\00:00:20.92
>>TY: Let's begin with a
question that I don't even
00:00:20.92\00:00:23.39
know if you'll have an answer
for, but have you ever had a
00:00:23.39\00:00:25.99
scary encounter with an animal?
00:00:25.99\00:00:29.76
>>JEFFREY: Snake.
00:00:29.76\00:00:30.96
>>TY: What happened?
00:00:30.96\00:00:32.16
>>JEFFREY: It was a copperhead
snake in Arkansas, I stepped
00:00:32.16\00:00:34.00
on it, full on.
00:00:34.00\00:00:36.33
>>TY: You stepped on it.
00:00:36.33\00:00:37.23
>>JEFFREY: Yeah.
00:00:37.23\00:00:38.33
>>TY: Didn't bite you,
obviously, 'cause you're here.
00:00:38.33\00:00:39.90
You killed it.
00:00:39.90\00:00:41.07
>>JEFFREY: I looked down,
I grabbed it, I, no, I'm just
00:00:41.07\00:00:42.80
kidding, but I saw it and I
freaked out and I just went,
00:00:42.80\00:00:45.34
shoom.
00:00:45.34\00:00:46.44
>>TY: You and Jesus, crushing
the head of the serpent.
00:00:46.44\00:00:48.74
>>JEFFREY: That's it.
00:00:48.74\00:00:49.68
>>DAVID: Just a dog
is all I can think of.
00:00:49.68\00:00:51.65
>>TY: Okay.
00:00:51.65\00:00:53.01
>>DAVID: Like, at
various times, you know, a dog's
00:00:53.01\00:00:53.92
chasing.
00:00:53.92\00:00:55.05
I used to run a lot and
dogs would chase you and that's
00:00:55.05\00:00:56.72
always a little heavy,
but not like a wild animal.
00:00:56.72\00:00:59.62
>>JAMES: Definitely with a
dog but the scariest encounter I
00:00:59.62\00:01:02.39
ever had with an animal
was when I was riding, I wasn't
00:01:02.39\00:01:06.13
riding fast, but I was on a
horse bareback and the horse
00:01:06.13\00:01:09.16
was walking in circles and
I just slipped off and fell on
00:01:09.16\00:01:12.30
the ground, it was really scary.
00:01:12.30\00:01:14.84
>>TY: That is scary.
00:01:14.84\00:01:15.97
>>DAVID: That's it, so you
just slipped off of a horse.
00:01:15.97\00:01:17.84
>>JAMES: Bareback, I was
bareback and he was walking in
00:01:17.84\00:01:20.18
circles.
00:01:20.18\00:01:21.04
>>JEFFREY: What do
you mean that's it?
00:01:21.04\00:01:22.24
>>DAVID: And it's funny 'cause
it took a while to slip off
00:01:22.24\00:01:23.31
and so I had all of that
anticipating time, you know,
00:01:23.31\00:01:25.58
where I knew I was gonna
get off, I'm gonna go, gonna go,
00:01:25.58\00:01:27.78
gonna go off, and maybe
he'll tread me underfoot.
00:01:27.78\00:01:30.79
I don't know.
00:01:30.79\00:01:31.99
>>TY: I was gonna say that
the scariest encounter I had was
00:01:31.99\00:01:35.66
when I...
00:01:35.66\00:01:36.69
>>DAVID: He always does
this just to show us up.
00:01:36.69\00:01:38.66
He's gonna have some epic...
00:01:38.66\00:01:40.06
>>TY: I do not have an epic
story, but James knows 'cause
00:01:40.06\00:01:45.00
James was in the same area,
we lived out in the wilderness.
00:01:45.00\00:01:48.70
>>JEFFREY: You know all these
stories, like, yeah, I know
00:01:48.70\00:01:50.87
this story.
00:01:50.87\00:01:52.04
>>TY: And I encountered a
bear one time and the guy I was
00:01:52.04\00:01:54.08
with, I'm a city kid, I was
raised in the city and living
00:01:54.08\00:01:58.21
in the country was kinda scary
for the first few years and
00:01:58.21\00:02:01.15
the people we were around,
they were real country folks.
00:02:01.15\00:02:05.19
This guy saw the bear, I
saw the bear, and my inclination
00:02:05.19\00:02:08.76
is, you run from the bear,
you turn around, you go the
00:02:08.76\00:02:10.96
opposite direction.
00:02:10.96\00:02:12.13
This guy picked up a big
PVC pipe and began running after
00:02:12.13\00:02:15.03
it and poking it
and ran it up a tree.
00:02:15.03\00:02:17.57
That was scary.
00:02:17.57\00:02:18.90
So, I was gonna say that
that was my scariest experience
00:02:18.90\00:02:21.57
with a wild animal until James
mentioned the horse and then I
00:02:21.57\00:02:24.34
remembered that I got on
the back of a pony one time and
00:02:24.34\00:02:30.75
the pony didn't like me
and just took off at breakneck
00:02:30.75\00:02:34.35
speed, galloping
until I fell off.
00:02:34.35\00:02:38.55
That was the scariest
experience I've ever had with
00:02:38.55\00:02:40.52
an animal.
00:02:40.52\00:02:42.99
>>DAVID: I love that.
00:02:42.99\00:02:44.19
>>TY: And you're thinking, I
decided at that point, I would
00:02:44.19\00:02:46.26
never get on the back of
anything with a brain again.
00:02:46.26\00:02:47.30
I can handle a car, a
motorcycle, but if it has a
00:02:47.30\00:02:51.03
brain, why would you get on
the back of something that can
00:02:51.03\00:02:55.20
make choices.
00:02:55.20\00:02:56.20
[Laughter]
00:02:56.20\00:02:57.37
>>DAVID: Like, I'm gonna
run as fast as I can until this
00:02:57.37\00:02:59.71
thing falls off of me.
00:02:59.71\00:03:00.91
You obviously
didn't get too hurt.
00:03:00.91\00:03:02.91
>>TY: No, but it was
terrifying because I was out
00:03:02.91\00:03:06.98
of control.
00:03:06.98\00:03:08.12
I was shouting, screaming,
doing what you see in cowboy
00:03:08.12\00:03:12.32
movies with my legs
trying to get it to stop, said
00:03:12.32\00:03:15.12
everything from
yeehaw to whatever.
00:03:15.12\00:03:17.13
>>DAVID: I think yeehaw
means go really fast in pony.
00:03:17.13\00:03:19.23
>>JAMES: So, according to
Revelation 13, we're all gonna
00:03:19.23\00:03:21.20
have a scary
encounter with some wild animal.
00:03:21.20\00:03:23.70
>>JEFFREY: Oh, he fully
just tied it in before you.
00:03:23.70\00:03:26.74
>>TY: No, that's great,
because in Revelation chapter
00:03:26.74\00:03:30.77
13, in Revelation 13,
the whole world has a scary
00:03:30.77\00:03:36.88
encounter with a wild animal
that nobody's ever encountered
00:03:36.88\00:03:41.48
in real life 'cause it's
a composite beast, but this
00:03:41.48\00:03:44.75
animal, in Revelation chapter
13, is described as having 7
00:03:44.75\00:03:50.06
heads, 10 horns, with the
name blasphemy on its heads, and
00:03:50.06\00:03:55.43
then, in verse 2, this beast
is a combination of a leopard,
00:03:55.43\00:04:00.24
a bear, a lion, and a dragon.
00:04:00.24\00:04:03.20
So, this is quite a creature.
00:04:03.20\00:04:05.97
>>JEFFREY: An amalgamation.
00:04:05.97\00:04:07.18
>>TY: It's an amalgamation
of beasts, but Revelation 13 is
00:04:07.18\00:04:12.38
bringing to view not a crazy
cartoonish composite beast,
00:04:12.38\00:04:17.92
but a picture of a power, a
kingdom, an empire, some kind
00:04:17.92\00:04:22.59
of earthly system that is
threatening the human race.
00:04:22.59\00:04:27.66
So, the first question I would
have on the basis of the first
00:04:27.66\00:04:31.53
two verses of Revelation
chapter 13 is what is the
00:04:31.53\00:04:36.84
background that
we're coming from on this?
00:04:36.84\00:04:40.84
>>JEFFREY: Well, this
stuff sounds familiar.
00:04:40.84\00:04:42.84
The imagery here is taken from
the book of Daniel, chapter 7.
00:04:42.84\00:04:45.58
>>TY: Okay.
00:04:45.58\00:04:46.58
>>JEFFREY: Should we read that?
00:04:46.58\00:04:47.75
>>TY: Sure.
00:04:47.75\00:04:48.75
>>JEFFREY: Can I?
00:04:48.75\00:04:49.75
You're looking at me funny.
00:04:49.75\00:04:50.85
>>TY: Well, David is pointing
out to me that we didn't
00:04:50.85\00:04:53.22
finish chapter 12 and we were
gonna deal with verses 13-17
00:04:53.22\00:04:56.69
and...
00:04:56.69\00:04:57.63
>>JEFFREY: You need
to connect that first?
00:04:57.63\00:04:59.69
>>TY: We don't need to connect
it first, but we do need to
00:04:59.69\00:05:01.90
come back.
00:05:01.90\00:05:02.93
>>DAVID: We'll come
back to it, we just can't...
00:05:02.93\00:05:05.23
>>TY: But take us to Daniel 7.
00:05:05.23\00:05:07.14
>>JAMES: We'll be
doing that in verse 11.
00:05:07.14\00:05:09.14
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, the
simple point is just that, the
00:05:09.14\00:05:12.14
amalgamation, the
composite beast here in verse 2.
00:05:12.14\00:05:15.94
>>TY: What?
00:05:15.94\00:05:16.95
>>JAMES: The composite beast.
00:05:16.95\00:05:18.05
>>JEFFREY: Sorry, the
composite beast is taken from
00:05:18.05\00:05:20.15
Daniel 7 and there's
four beasts and in verse 4, it
00:05:20.15\00:05:24.52
starts describing it,
for instance, a lion, eagle's
00:05:24.52\00:05:29.09
wings, then there's a bear,
verse 5, and then there's a
00:05:29.09\00:05:36.67
leopard in verse 6.
00:05:36.67\00:05:38.03
>>TY: Break that
down for us, Jeffrey.
00:05:38.03\00:05:41.74
>>JEFFREY: Then, in chapter
7, these beasts are describing
00:05:41.74\00:05:43.61
empires.
00:05:43.61\00:05:44.71
And we're told in, what
is it, verse 17 and 23 is it?
00:05:44.71\00:05:47.44
Or 21?
00:05:47.44\00:05:48.44
That a beast represents
a power and a kingdom.
00:05:48.44\00:05:51.58
So, these are four powers,
four kingdoms, and in the
00:05:51.58\00:05:54.42
prophecies of Daniel,
they represent the Babylonian
00:05:54.42\00:05:57.22
empire, the Persian empire,
Greece, and the Roman empire.
00:05:57.22\00:06:01.22
So, whatever we're looking
at here in the 13th chapter of
00:06:01.22\00:06:04.53
Revelation, Daniel, borrowing
imagery from Daniel, John in
00:06:04.53\00:06:08.96
Revelation 13 is trying
to draw attention to this
00:06:08.96\00:06:11.30
development in history.
00:06:11.30\00:06:13.03
>>TY: But he's doing something
unique because he's bringing
00:06:13.03\00:06:16.44
these separate empires
that ran one after another.
00:06:16.44\00:06:19.54
Babylon, Medo-Persia,
Greece, and then Rome.
00:06:19.54\00:06:22.48
Then, he's taking those beasts
that represented those powers
00:06:22.48\00:06:27.65
and he's pulling them
all together into one beast.
00:06:27.65\00:06:31.59
Why is that?
00:06:31.59\00:06:32.75
Why combine the elements of
these different empires into
00:06:32.75\00:06:36.83
one?
00:06:36.83\00:06:38.23
>>JAMES: That's because of
verse 12 of Daniel 7, it says,
00:06:38.23\00:06:39.46
as concerning the rest of the
beast, they had their dominion
00:06:39.46\00:06:41.66
taken away, but their lives
were prolonged for a season
00:06:41.66\00:06:44.13
and a time, and what's that
inferring here is that these
00:06:44.13\00:06:47.40
kingdoms, Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome
00:06:47.40\00:06:50.07
had a culture and traditions
and practices that carried on
00:06:50.07\00:06:54.74
into this composite
beast in Revelation 13.
00:06:54.74\00:06:57.48
So, we're gonna see
characteristics in this beast
00:06:57.48\00:06:59.68
in Revelation 13 as the
earthly power in Revelation 13
00:06:59.68\00:07:01.32
that reminds us of these
different powers that went
00:07:01.32\00:07:04.05
before, these different
kingdoms that went before it.
00:07:04.05\00:07:05.85
>>DAVID: For example, like,
the first one that's mentioned
00:07:05.85\00:07:08.89
there, Babylon is expressly,
that is expressly named in the
00:07:08.89\00:07:12.79
book of Revelation when we
get a little bit later, well,
00:07:12.79\00:07:15.10
actually, Revelation 14,
Revelation 17, so the idea
00:07:15.10\00:07:17.20
that you have elements of,
you know, Babylonian ideas,
00:07:17.20\00:07:21.20
theology, and that you have
Greek ideas in there and you
00:07:21.20\00:07:24.74
have Roman ideas, that's
all wrapped up with this beast.
00:07:24.74\00:07:28.51
>>TY: Yeah.
00:07:28.51\00:07:29.58
>>DAVID: And something
that I've always found really
00:07:29.58\00:07:32.48
persuasive is that when
Daniel, who's living 600 years
00:07:32.48\00:07:35.35
before the time of Jesus, when
he sees this prophecy of these
00:07:35.35\00:07:38.79
beasts, that Jeffrey's
describing in Daniel 7,
00:07:38.79\00:07:40.46
he sees a lion, Babylon, a
bear, Persia, Medo-Persia, he
00:07:40.46\00:07:44.66
sees a leopard, Greece,
and then he sees this terrible,
00:07:44.66\00:07:47.76
ferocious beast with 7
heads and ten horns, Rome.
00:07:47.76\00:07:51.13
So, he's looking forward,
as you would expect, 600 years
00:07:51.13\00:07:53.54
before the time of
Jesus, looking forward, he sees,
00:07:53.54\00:07:55.64
Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome.
00:07:55.64\00:07:57.81
When John, who's living
first century, and ten horns.
00:07:57.81\00:08:00.91
When John, who's living first
century, describes the beast,
00:08:00.91\00:08:04.38
fascinatingly, this is a great
little historicist evidence,
00:08:04.38\00:08:08.32
he describes those
beasts in the reverse order.
00:08:08.32\00:08:11.92
He describes the
attributes of the beast.
00:08:11.92\00:08:14.32
So, he says that he had the
ten horns, then he says, the
00:08:14.32\00:08:19.26
beast which I saw was like
a leopard, his feet were like
00:08:19.26\00:08:23.37
the feet of a bear and its
mouth was like the mouth of a
00:08:23.37\00:08:25.93
lion.
00:08:25.93\00:08:27.04
So, it's just, which
makes sense, if Daniel's looking
00:08:27.04\00:08:29.14
forward, he sees Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome,
00:08:29.14\00:08:31.91
John's living during the
time of Rome, so he sees, Rome,
00:08:31.91\00:08:33.88
Greece, Medo-Persia, Babylon.
00:08:33.88\00:08:37.48
So, this is just another
little snippet, a little gem
00:08:37.48\00:08:40.22
of this historicist idea,
this is traversing through the
00:08:40.22\00:08:44.15
time, through history
to the time of the prophet.
00:08:44.15\00:08:46.49
>>TY: Okay, so, in Daniel,
chapter 7, we have Babylon,
00:08:46.49\00:08:50.09
Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome,
and then, there's a transition
00:08:50.09\00:08:53.06
because the terrible beast
in Daniel 7, which is Rome then
00:08:53.06\00:08:58.47
has a little horn that
develops out of it in chapter
00:08:58.47\00:09:02.00
7 and in chapter 8,
we have a little horn.
00:09:02.00\00:09:04.54
So, there's a transition
between the Pagan Roman
00:09:04.54\00:09:08.08
empire, and the
Papal Roman empire.
00:09:08.08\00:09:12.01
So, the papacy is born
out of the Roman empire.
00:09:12.01\00:09:15.88
When we come to Revelation.
00:09:15.88\00:09:16.99
>>DAVID: When we say papal
and papacy, we're saying the
00:09:16.99\00:09:18.49
medieval church.
00:09:18.49\00:09:19.35
>>TY: The medieval church.
00:09:19.35\00:09:20.56
>>DAVID: The church like you
were saying in Revelation 12,
00:09:20.56\00:09:22.52
the visible, somebody would
say, hey, where's the church?
00:09:22.52\00:09:24.93
Oh, it's this thing right
here, 'cause God's church has
00:09:24.93\00:09:27.00
gone underground, we'll return
to that, I think, so that's,
00:09:27.00\00:09:29.60
just so we're clear on our
language here, 'cause a lot of
00:09:29.60\00:09:31.93
people might not know papacy.
00:09:31.93\00:09:33.44
That's in-house language.
00:09:33.44\00:09:34.54
>>TY: So, we can make it
clear by saying that the Roman
00:09:34.54\00:09:39.11
empire has two phases, it
has the pagan phase under the
00:09:39.11\00:09:43.78
Caesars, it has the
papal phase under the popes and
00:09:43.78\00:09:47.92
there's a transition, but it's
really, in Daniel's visions,
00:09:47.92\00:09:51.59
it's a single empire.
00:09:51.59\00:09:53.19
It's one empire.
00:09:53.19\00:09:54.66
It's a seamless transition
and what takes place is that the
00:09:54.66\00:09:59.23
pagan Roman empire or secular
Rome, you might even say, with
00:09:59.23\00:10:04.03
religious elements from
paganism, as a civil power,
00:10:04.03\00:10:08.37
transitions at a certain point
in history so that the Roman
00:10:08.37\00:10:12.17
empire takes on now Christian
language and attributes, and
00:10:12.17\00:10:16.98
the papal Roman empire,
now, is in the position that was
00:10:16.98\00:10:21.68
once occupied by the
pagan Roman empire, or in the
00:10:21.68\00:10:24.85
position of the Caesars.
00:10:24.85\00:10:26.45
>>JAMES: And we saw that in
seven churches with Pergamus,
00:10:26.45\00:10:28.69
that the Constatinian era and
that morphed into Thyatira and
00:10:28.69\00:10:33.50
we saw Jezebel, but the
dark ages, and out of that came
00:10:33.50\00:10:36.80
reformation, so that was
kind of in our seven churches.
00:10:36.80\00:10:38.83
>>TY: Okay, so, before I
lose the point though that I was
00:10:38.83\00:10:40.30
going for before we fleshed
that out, the point I was
00:10:40.30\00:10:43.97
gonna make, and see if
you guys feel this, if you see
00:10:43.97\00:10:46.44
this, in Daniel, the fourth
beast is the Roman empire and
00:10:46.44\00:10:52.75
the little horn is the papal
Roman empire, right, when we
00:10:52.75\00:10:56.02
come to Revelation 13,
there's no little horn.
00:10:56.02\00:11:00.76
The composite beast is for
what for Daniel was the little
00:11:00.76\00:11:04.69
horn.
00:11:04.69\00:11:05.43
Is that making sense?
00:11:05.43\00:11:06.59
Okay, so the composite beast
in Revelation chapter 13 is,
00:11:06.59\00:11:11.20
the Roman empire
in the papal phase.
00:11:11.20\00:11:13.34
>>JEFFREY: And we know that
because of the characteristics
00:11:13.34\00:11:14.67
or basics are mirrored
in chapter 13, there's a
00:11:14.67\00:11:17.51
timeframe given, 42 months
in verse 5, that's the same
00:11:17.51\00:11:22.04
allotted time that we've
been discussing, 1,260 days and
00:11:22.04\00:11:25.18
when you read in Daniel 7
and in verse 25, you have a
00:11:25.18\00:11:29.52
timeframe there again
that matches this timeframe.
00:11:29.52\00:11:33.05
Revelation 13 says that one
characteristic is blasphemy.
00:11:33.05\00:11:38.26
We have the same thing
in Daniel chapter 7, again.
00:11:38.26\00:11:40.96
We have persecuting power
in Revelation 13, we have the
00:11:40.96\00:11:44.97
same thing in Daniel
chapter 7 with this little horn.
00:11:44.97\00:11:49.27
So, in other words, it's
the same, it's the same power.
00:11:49.27\00:11:52.24
>>TY: The little horn in
Daniel and the composite beast
00:11:52.24\00:11:54.64
in Revelation 13 are
one and the same power.
00:11:54.64\00:11:57.28
>>DAVID: And as we've
mentioned before, what John is
00:11:57.28\00:12:00.12
doing in the book of
Revelation is he's borrowing
00:12:00.12\00:12:02.05
from the Old Testament.
00:12:02.05\00:12:03.22
So, when he uses the lion,
the bear, the leopard, and the
00:12:03.22\00:12:05.39
seven heads and the ten horns,
he's saying, you know, hey,
00:12:05.39\00:12:07.86
hey, pay attention,
that whole Daniel thing?
00:12:07.86\00:12:10.69
I'm talking about that.
00:12:10.69\00:12:11.89
So, any first century Jewish
reader would've been like, oh,
00:12:11.89\00:12:16.87
oh, this is Daniel's stuff.
00:12:16.87\00:12:18.03
Go back, figure out where
you're at, and that's us now.
00:12:18.03\00:12:19.80
So, we just know, it's like
a great big arrow, it's a sign
00:12:19.80\00:12:23.10
post.
00:12:23.10\00:12:24.31
Know Daniel.
00:12:24.31\00:12:26.07
Know what's going on.
00:12:26.07\00:12:27.24
>>TY: Now, a crucial point
that James already made that I
00:12:27.24\00:12:28.81
wanna emphasize now that we've
identified the first beast as
00:12:28.81\00:12:32.88
the Roman empire
in the papal phase.
00:12:32.88\00:12:35.55
The crucial point James was
making is that the reason it's
00:12:35.55\00:12:38.25
a composite beast is because
that beast or that power is a
00:12:38.25\00:12:47.13
conglomeration of cultural,
ideological, philosophical,
00:12:47.13\00:12:53.84
theological perspectives and
ideas that come from Babylon,
00:12:53.84\00:12:59.74
Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
00:12:59.74\00:13:02.11
In other words,
medieval Christianity is not the
00:13:02.11\00:13:06.72
Christianity that came
from Jesus and the apostles.
00:13:06.72\00:13:09.55
Medieval Christianity is a
pagan system that is merely
00:13:09.55\00:13:16.56
borrowing some language
from Christianity, but if you
00:13:16.56\00:13:20.10
examine the thing itself,
the papal Roman system, if you
00:13:20.10\00:13:26.03
examine it, you will
find that philosophically and
00:13:26.03\00:13:29.64
theologically, it's
mostly Greek, but with Christian
00:13:29.64\00:13:33.81
language.
00:13:33.81\00:13:34.84
You will find that in
practice, that it's mostly
00:13:34.84\00:13:38.85
Babylonian ceremonies that
are being enacted and Roman
00:13:38.85\00:13:43.95
ceremonies that
are being enacted.
00:13:43.95\00:13:47.52
So, this is a crucial point
that, is this a good place to
00:13:47.52\00:13:53.86
loop back to the last verses
of chapter 12 because what's
00:13:53.86\00:13:57.07
happening here, and again,
we've made this point, but I
00:13:57.07\00:14:00.04
think it's just, this for
me, answers one of the great
00:14:00.04\00:14:05.01
mysteries of history.
00:14:05.01\00:14:08.08
Because our world today
is increasingly more and more
00:14:08.08\00:14:12.45
secular, more and more
atheistic on the premise of
00:14:12.45\00:14:17.42
what Christianity, quote
unquote, did down through the
00:14:17.42\00:14:20.79
middle ages.
00:14:20.79\00:14:22.52
But this really is quite
interesting because we're
00:14:22.52\00:14:25.79
realizing now that the
thing that the world is reacting
00:14:25.79\00:14:29.46
against and rejecting really
isn't the thing that Jesus and
00:14:29.46\00:14:34.40
the apostles started at all.
00:14:34.40\00:14:36.60
>>JEFFREY: It's the
residue of other pagan empires.
00:14:36.60\00:14:37.91
>>TY: So, if you can
imagine two parallels, yeah, two
00:14:37.91\00:14:41.08
parallel horizontal lines.
00:14:41.08\00:14:43.71
And the upper horizontal
line is the church and the lower
00:14:43.71\00:14:48.52
horizontal line is the
church in the wilderness or the
00:14:48.52\00:14:51.92
church being persecuted and
pushed into obscurity and it's
00:14:51.92\00:14:57.89
gone underground.
00:14:57.89\00:14:59.49
The thing that the world calls
Christianity and nearly all
00:14:59.49\00:15:01.93
the history books is
not Christianity at all.
00:15:01.93\00:15:06.40
>>DAVID: In terms of
history, you're exactly correct.
00:15:06.40\00:15:08.44
>>TY: So, increasingly,
when somebody asks me, are you a
00:15:08.44\00:15:10.74
Christian?
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.14
I pause because I wanna know,
well, what do you mean by that?
00:15:12.14\00:15:15.71
Do you mean am I a Christian
in the imperial Rome sense, in
00:15:15.71\00:15:20.15
the Constatinian sense, am I
a Christian in the sense of the
00:15:20.15\00:15:24.12
Crusades?
00:15:24.12\00:15:25.79
No.
00:15:25.79\00:15:26.92
Am I a follower of Jesus?
00:15:26.92\00:15:29.22
Yes.
00:15:29.22\00:15:30.56
>>DAVID: But there's a lot
of people that don't make the
00:15:30.56\00:15:32.33
distinction.
00:15:32.33\00:15:33.56
The idea that there is a
distinction would strike a lot
00:15:34.63\00:15:39.17
of moderns as strange.
00:15:39.17\00:15:41.70
Right?
00:15:41.70\00:15:43.34
I mean, that there would be
a divorce, that's a fascinating
00:15:43.34\00:15:46.54
word, between
Christianity and Christ.
00:15:46.54\00:15:51.81
I say it's a fascinating word
because Paul uses that word to
00:15:51.81\00:15:55.02
describe this very thing in 2
Thessalonians, which we're not
00:15:55.02\00:15:57.79
going into right now, but
that there's a disconnect.
00:15:57.79\00:16:00.36
>>JEFFREY: The world
says, I love Jesus but I hate
00:16:00.36\00:16:02.86
Christians, basically.
00:16:02.86\00:16:04.66
>>DAVID: Because the paints
that have been used to paint
00:16:04.66\00:16:08.50
Christianity are the paints
of the historical career of
00:16:08.50\00:16:13.97
Christianity through
the medieval period which is
00:16:13.97\00:16:15.80
persecution, manipulation,
coercion, what amounts to
00:16:15.80\00:16:18.91
money laundering, I mean, it's
an ugly portrait and it does
00:16:18.91\00:16:23.91
not bear any resemblance
to Jesus, to the church that
00:16:23.91\00:16:27.22
Jesus established,
or to Jesus himself.
00:16:27.22\00:16:28.92
>>TY: We have a popular bumper
sticker that I've seen around
00:16:28.92\00:16:31.32
town here in Eugene, OR it's
very insightful, it says, Jesus
00:16:31.32\00:16:36.32
called the other day, said
he wants his religion back.
00:16:36.32\00:16:39.69
There's a lot of insight
in that because that bumper
00:16:39.93\00:16:41.96
sticker is essentially
realizing that there's Jesus
00:16:41.96\00:16:47.84
and then Jesus's religion
has been coocted, it's been
00:16:47.84\00:16:51.67
hijacked.
00:16:51.67\00:16:52.87
It's like there's this
plane called Christianity, and
00:16:52.87\00:16:56.75
somebody's in the cockpit
running the thing and it's not
00:16:56.75\00:17:00.65
Jesus, but it's
called Christianity.
00:17:00.65\00:17:03.55
Because, if you think about
it, right now, we're entering
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.85
in an election season and you
see the candidates want to lay
00:17:05.85\00:17:10.76
claim to the Christian
vote, so in laying claim to the
00:17:10.76\00:17:13.56
Christian vote, they're lining
themselves up with what they
00:17:13.56\00:17:18.27
think Christians wanna
hear and some of the things
00:17:18.27\00:17:22.40
Christians want to hear are
not the kinds of things that
00:17:22.40\00:17:25.71
are in the teachings of Jesus.
00:17:25.71\00:17:27.24
Christians in the Jesus
and the apostolic sense aren't
00:17:27.24\00:17:32.71
about building up a military,
and yet, Christianity has been
00:17:32.71\00:17:37.49
increasingly, in American
politics, identified with
00:17:37.49\00:17:41.79
military strength.
00:17:41.79\00:17:42.89
>>JEFFREY: And the
politicizing of Christianity
00:17:42.89\00:17:44.86
is one of the characteristics
that were given for this
00:17:44.86\00:17:47.76
system.
00:17:47.76\00:17:49.16
>>TY: The what?
00:17:49.16\00:17:50.40
>>JAMES: The politicizing.
00:17:50.40\00:17:51.60
>>JEFFREY: The politicizing
of Christianity is, in itself,
00:17:51.60\00:17:54.50
one of the characteristics
that we're given to identify,
00:17:54.50\00:17:57.91
to distinguish the Jesus...
00:17:57.91\00:18:00.11
>>TY: Someone asked, is Jesus
a Republican or a Democrat?
00:18:00.11\00:18:04.11
And for some people, there's
just an assumption that he's
00:18:04.11\00:18:06.82
one or the other.
00:18:06.82\00:18:07.92
I said, he's neither.
00:18:07.92\00:18:09.25
He doesn't identify
with any political party.
00:18:09.25\00:18:13.66
Jesus is above all of that
with a totally different kind
00:18:13.66\00:18:17.43
of kingdom, and his church was
established as a church with a
00:18:17.43\00:18:22.10
message that reaches the
heart, not as a civil system
00:18:22.10\00:18:25.93
that forces the conscience.
00:18:25.93\00:18:27.24
And that's what
this is getting at.
00:18:27.24\00:18:29.94
>>JAMES: I'd like to touch
on this a little more, but we're
00:18:29.94\00:18:31.51
out of time, but there's
a point here that I think we
00:18:31.51\00:18:33.78
could really flesh out and
get somewhere with, just to
00:18:33.78\00:18:36.24
confirm everything we've just
says, in verse 2, it says, and
00:18:36.24\00:18:39.91
the dragon gave him his power,
his seat, and great authority,
00:18:39.91\00:18:45.65
and I think it would be
very much worthwhile for us and
00:18:45.65\00:18:48.32
those listening, for us to go
through the text of Revelation
00:18:48.32\00:18:51.76
15 and even spill back to 12
and the last part of this that
00:18:51.76\00:18:56.43
we're not hitting, not to,
before we even identify the
00:18:56.43\00:18:58.77
verses, and just look at the
characteristics of the dragon,
00:18:58.77\00:19:04.07
the characteristics.
00:19:04.07\00:19:05.07
For example, let me
give you an example.
00:19:05.07\00:19:06.91
The characteristic, one of
the characteristics that we look
00:19:06.91\00:19:08.78
at is, in Revelation chapter
12 and verse 11, it says, the
00:19:08.78\00:19:13.21
dragon is an accuser.
00:19:13.21\00:19:16.12
Because we're talking
here about the principles of
00:19:16.12\00:19:18.55
Christianity, true
Christianity and false
00:19:18.55\00:19:21.12
Christianity and the layers.
00:19:21.12\00:19:22.96
And many times, we think about
that in relation to doctrines,
00:19:22.96\00:19:26.36
which are significant
and important, doctrines are
00:19:26.36\00:19:28.30
important.
00:19:28.30\00:19:29.50
But underlying the doctrines,
when we look at the culture
00:19:29.50\00:19:31.83
and the philosophy of Babylon,
Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome,
00:19:31.83\00:19:34.27
and how it's trickled into
the Christian church today, we
00:19:34.27\00:19:36.71
wanna look at it in
the sense of character.
00:19:36.71\00:19:39.94
What kind of characteristics
has the dragon bequeathed to
00:19:39.94\00:19:44.31
this church and how
does that contrast with the
00:19:44.31\00:19:46.88
characteristics of the Lamb.
00:19:46.88\00:19:49.28
There's a verse here, verse
10, for example, talks about
00:19:49.28\00:19:51.39
going into captivity and being
led into captivity and killing
00:19:51.39\00:19:54.22
with a sword and
being killed by the sword.
00:19:54.22\00:19:55.99
There are other
characteristics that are
00:19:55.99\00:19:57.49
identified that the spirit
of the dragon, and I think it
00:19:57.49\00:20:00.90
would be very helpful because
then, our viewers, and each
00:20:00.90\00:20:03.37
one of us, can say, you know
what, the real issue here is
00:20:03.37\00:20:06.13
not just doctrine and what
we're teaching, the real issue
00:20:06.13\00:20:08.04
is, is the character of the
Lamb and the character of the
00:20:08.04\00:20:11.27
dragon.
00:20:11.27\00:20:12.37
The spirit of the Lamb
and the spirit of the dragon.
00:20:12.37\00:20:14.71
>>TY: So, let's do that.
00:20:14.71\00:20:15.91
As you mentioned, we have to
take a break and then, when we
00:20:15.91\00:20:17.41
come back, let's just
systematically move through
00:20:17.41\00:20:19.41
the passage.
00:20:19.41\00:20:20.85
>>JAMES: Sounds good.
00:20:20.85\00:20:22.22
[Music]
00:20:22.22\00:20:34.00
>>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson,
welcome to digma.com.
00:20:34.00\00:20:36.97
I am so excited about this
website because you're about
00:20:36.97\00:20:40.10
to discover a powerful new
way to share life transforming
00:20:40.10\00:20:44.11
messages and videos with your
family, friends, and anybody
00:20:44.11\00:20:47.81
else on the planet who
has access to a computer.
00:20:47.81\00:20:51.75
Digma is a Greek word.
00:20:51.98\00:20:53.88
It basically means, to show
or to reveal something by means
00:20:53.88\00:20:57.29
of a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:20:57.29\00:20:59.85
It's the second half of the
word paradigma, from which we
00:20:59.85\00:21:04.13
get the English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:21:04.13\00:21:08.03
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:21:08.03\00:21:11.27
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:21:11.27\00:21:14.40
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:21:14.40\00:21:18.01
What's the meaning of life?
00:21:18.01\00:21:20.31
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:21:20.31\00:21:24.08
What happens when we die?
00:21:24.08\00:21:26.31
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:21:26.31\00:21:30.65
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:21:30.65\00:21:34.82
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:21:34.82\00:21:39.56
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email,
00:21:39.56\00:21:43.57
and more than 400 million
people are active on Facebook,
00:21:43.57\00:21:48.20
and 5 million new users
are signing up every week.
00:21:48.20\00:21:52.87
We are literally in the midst
of a communications revolution
00:21:52.87\00:21:57.51
of massive proportion.
00:21:57.51\00:21:59.75
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:21:59.75\00:22:04.92
millions upon millions of
homes and hearts, and that's
00:22:04.92\00:22:09.86
what digma.com is all about.
00:22:09.86\00:22:12.63
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:22:12.63\00:22:16.10
exciting paradigm shift by
revealing the truth of God's
00:22:16.10\00:22:20.27
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:22:20.27\00:22:24.71
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about
00:22:24.71\00:22:29.98
who God is.
00:22:29.98\00:22:31.98
[Music]
00:22:31.98\00:22:40.19
>>TY: James, before the
break, you said, essentially,
00:22:48.50\00:22:51.60
let's begin to systematically
walk through the passage.
00:22:51.60\00:22:53.87
We did verses 1 and 2 and
what we did in verses 1 and 2 of
00:22:53.87\00:23:00.11
Revelation 13 is we
identified the beast.
00:23:00.11\00:23:02.61
The beast from the sea, the
composite beast is equivalent
00:23:02.61\00:23:07.15
to Daniel's little horn power.
00:23:07.15\00:23:09.15
It's the Roman empire, papal
phase, the medieval church,
00:23:09.15\00:23:12.55
we've identified that.
00:23:12.55\00:23:13.69
But when we come to verse
3, it says, I saw one of his
00:23:13.69\00:23:16.83
heads as if it had been
mortally wounded and his
00:23:16.83\00:23:21.63
deadly wound was healed,
and all the world marveled, or
00:23:21.63\00:23:25.07
another version says, wondered
after the beast and followed
00:23:25.07\00:23:30.04
the beast.
00:23:30.04\00:23:31.21
So, if this is the medieval
church, if this is the Roman
00:23:31.21\00:23:34.58
empire at the papal phase,
we're being told, in bible
00:23:34.58\00:23:37.28
prophecy here, that that
system will, in some sense, be
00:23:37.28\00:23:40.88
wounded, but then,
that wound will be healed.
00:23:40.88\00:23:43.08
Is there historical evidence
that the papal Roman empire,
00:23:43.08\00:23:51.03
the medieval church was, in
fact, in some sense, wounded
00:23:51.03\00:23:54.93
and then healed?
00:23:54.93\00:23:57.33
>>JEFFREY: Somebody else
can talk about the healing, but
00:23:57.33\00:23:59.33
the wounding, again, traces
back to chapter 11, where we
00:23:59.33\00:24:05.94
read that there would be this
power that would rise up and
00:24:05.94\00:24:10.65
we identified that as the
French Revolution, right, and
00:24:10.65\00:24:13.28
in that era, as this
power in France rose up against
00:24:13.28\00:24:18.02
Christianity, against
the church, because of the
00:24:18.02\00:24:20.16
misrepresentation, it,
the target was the church.
00:24:20.16\00:24:24.73
>>TY: So, be more
specific, what exactly happened
00:24:24.73\00:24:27.30
historically that
wounded the church?
00:24:27.30\00:24:29.30
>>JEFFREY: Well,
under Napoleon, the pope was
00:24:29.30\00:24:31.30
basically unseated in 1798.
00:24:31.30\00:24:35.24
>>JAMES: February 1798.
00:24:35.24\00:24:36.37
>>TY: Now, why is the 1798
date significant because we
00:24:36.37\00:24:39.24
never defined
that 1260 year period.
00:24:39.24\00:24:42.24
>>JEFFREY: But we've been
going back to it over and over
00:24:42.24\00:24:44.35
because that's that period,
we ran into in chapter 12, 1,260
00:24:44.35\00:24:48.82
days, it's the period in
chapter 11, and from the rise
00:24:48.82\00:24:52.35
of this medieval system we've
been talking about, 538, the
00:24:52.35\00:24:56.49
year 538, that period of 1260
years up until what we've just
00:24:56.49\00:25:03.13
mention, 1798.
00:25:03.13\00:25:04.60
So, that's the period of this
medieval ascendency that we've
00:25:04.60\00:25:08.24
been talking about.
00:25:08.24\00:25:09.40
>>TY: You can even come at
it backwards and you can say,
00:25:09.40\00:25:10.57
well, it says that the papal
system would be wounded and
00:25:10.57\00:25:14.28
history tells us that that
occurred in 1798 and if you
00:25:14.28\00:25:17.01
count back from there, 1260
years, because a day equals a
00:25:17.01\00:25:21.35
year in bible prophecy, you
come to 538, you can come at
00:25:21.35\00:25:24.99
it from that way and
ask, well, what happened then?
00:25:24.99\00:25:27.46
>>DAVID: You're onto it.
00:25:27.46\00:25:28.89
>>JEFFREY: Same thing.
00:25:28.89\00:25:30.39
>>DAVID: The period
here, we should say...
00:25:30.39\00:25:34.20
>>TY: What did happen then?
00:25:34.20\00:25:35.30
>>DAVID: I think we
covered that, so basically,
00:25:35.30\00:25:37.53
Napoleon...
00:25:37.53\00:25:38.67
>>TY: No, in 538,
though, what's the 538 date?
00:25:38.67\00:25:41.94
>>JEFFREY: The pope is granted
civil authority, not just
00:25:41.94\00:25:47.44
ecclesiastical
power, he's got civil power.
00:25:47.44\00:25:51.05
>>TY: So, we have two
bookends, we have 538, 1798,
00:25:51.05\00:25:54.12
this is the point that I think
we need to make clear is, that
00:25:54.12\00:25:56.15
1260 year period of time
begins in 538 with the papacy
00:25:56.15\00:26:01.06
being granted
full-fledged civil authority.
00:26:01.06\00:26:05.29
>>JEFFREY:
Church and state unite.
00:26:05.29\00:26:06.46
>>DAVID: Let me just say a
word about that, just to set a
00:26:06.46\00:26:09.00
larger historical context
for our listeners and for us.
00:26:09.00\00:26:11.77
Remember that what's happened
is, you have Christianity, you
00:26:11.77\00:26:16.27
have the ascension of Jesus,
the apostolic movement, that's
00:26:16.27\00:26:17.64
ending at the end of the
first century, so AD 100.
00:26:17.64\00:26:20.88
You then have AD200-300 which
is a period variously of some
00:26:20.88\00:26:25.65
peace, some persecution,
but largely where the church is
00:26:25.65\00:26:27.82
sort of trending upward, right?
00:26:27.82\00:26:30.59
Then, you have the conversion
of Constantine, AD 312, which
00:26:30.59\00:26:33.96
we've talked about
the Constantinian era.
00:26:33.96\00:26:36.02
From the time of Constantine,
who was the first of the Roman
00:26:36.02\00:26:38.66
Christian emperors, it's
only a very short period,
00:26:38.66\00:26:41.86
relatively, to the demise
of the Roman empire, AD 476.
00:26:41.86\00:26:46.27
You go from 312 to
476, like 160 years.
00:26:46.27\00:26:49.94
So, this is like the last
gasp of Rome in its pagan phase.
00:26:49.94\00:26:56.54
By the time we get to AD 476
with the dissolution of Rome,
00:26:56.54\00:27:00.75
the fragmenting of the western
Roman empire, now, the big
00:27:00.75\00:27:03.69
question is, okay,
what is the unifying force?
00:27:03.69\00:27:06.55
>>TY: What's
gonna fill the vacuum?
00:27:06.55\00:27:07.72
>>DAVID: What keeps Rome,
what keeps it, and the, no, not
00:27:07.72\00:27:12.73
homogenizing, the adhering,
gluing property, the thing
00:27:12.73\00:27:18.47
that made Rome unified in any
sense was not now a political
00:27:18.47\00:27:22.37
or a strong federal
government, it was the church.
00:27:22.37\00:27:25.97
So, you start looking to
church leaders for various
00:27:25.97\00:27:29.28
ecclesiastical positions.
00:27:29.28\00:27:31.08
So, if you go from AD 476
to AD 538, that's just a very
00:27:31.08\00:27:36.48
short period of confusion
and hey, who's in charge here?
00:27:36.48\00:27:42.19
And there is a story there,
the story goes back to, after
00:27:42.19\00:27:44.76
the conversion of Constantine
in AD 312, in AD 330, he moves
00:27:44.76\00:27:49.70
the seat of the western Roman
empire from Rome to what we
00:27:49.70\00:27:54.74
call Istanbul, but
Constantinople, literally,
00:27:54.74\00:27:56.91
City of Constantine, and he
more or less leaves the bishop
00:27:56.91\00:27:59.84
of Rome kind of in charge
of, not just the churches, but
00:27:59.84\00:28:04.15
hey, you sort of
oversee things here.
00:28:04.15\00:28:06.51
So, there was already a
trajectory for the bishop of
00:28:06.51\00:28:09.25
Rome to be viewed as a
significant figure in a civil
00:28:09.25\00:28:15.39
sense.
00:28:15.39\00:28:16.49
After the demise of Rome
in AD 476, he rises into that
00:28:16.49\00:28:22.00
position, naturally, and
by the time we get to AD 538,
00:28:22.00\00:28:27.57
you're saying, the
tarmac, so to speak, is cleared.
00:28:27.57\00:28:29.77
All those other
flights have gone.
00:28:29.77\00:28:30.97
There's nothing now preventing
the rise of the papal Roman
00:28:30.97\00:28:35.71
empire.
00:28:35.71\00:28:36.95
>>JEFFREY: And even the titles
just get handed off, granted.
00:28:36.95\00:28:39.45
>>DAVID: So, I don't know
if I did a good job there, but
00:28:39.45\00:28:41.72
trying to paint,
how did we get here?
00:28:41.72\00:28:44.55
>>TY: So, 538, as Jeffrey
was pointing out, you just gave
00:28:44.55\00:28:47.86
the background, 538 is
that point in history when the
00:28:47.86\00:28:54.03
papal church begins
to occupy civil position.
00:28:54.03\00:29:01.07
>>DAVID: Officially.
00:29:01.07\00:29:01.97
It already had that
inclination from the
00:29:01.97\00:29:04.14
Constantinian time, but yeah,
now, it's like, hey, the road
00:29:04.14\00:29:07.54
is clear, and
there's no other...
00:29:07.54\00:29:09.01
>>TY: It was just handed over.
00:29:09.01\00:29:10.08
>>DAVID: You got it.
00:29:10.08\00:29:11.21
>>TY: So, 538, and then,
you count forward 1260 years,
00:29:11.21\00:29:14.82
which this prophecy
is mentioned repeatedly.
00:29:14.82\00:29:17.15
>>DAVID: Seven
times in scripture.
00:29:17.15\00:29:18.29
>>TY: Seven times.
00:29:18.29\00:29:19.45
That 1260 year period, if
you count forward, you come to
00:29:19.45\00:29:23.22
1798, from 538 to 1798 and
that's where you were pointing
00:29:23.22\00:29:28.26
out that Napoleon, French
Revolution, takes the pope
00:29:28.26\00:29:31.77
captive, off the papal throne,
puts him in exile, he dies in
00:29:31.77\00:29:35.54
exile, the pope does, and
that is the inflicting of the
00:29:35.54\00:29:40.44
deadly wound that's brought
to view in verse 3, but then, it
00:29:40.44\00:29:45.88
says, the deadly
wound was healed.
00:29:45.88\00:29:49.25
So, what's with that?
00:29:49.25\00:29:51.12
->>DAVID: Well, I think we
should say that, the reason,
00:29:51.12\00:29:53.22
Napoleon wasn't just like,
hey, what am I gonna do this
00:29:53.22\00:29:55.89
afternoon?
00:29:55.89\00:29:57.09
You know, I think I'll go
take the pope off of his throne.
00:29:57.09\00:29:58.53
This was a pendulous response.
00:29:58.53\00:30:02.03
Basically, where
France was overreacting, not
00:30:02.03\00:30:06.27
overreacting, reacting in
a very radical way, against
00:30:06.27\00:30:09.44
centuries of papal abuse and
coercion and manipulation over
00:30:09.44\00:30:14.21
all of the, Europe is now
coalesced and solidified into
00:30:14.21\00:30:17.81
countries like Germany,
France, England, it wasn't
00:30:17.81\00:30:21.42
like that going back, you
had regional powers and empires,
00:30:21.42\00:30:26.35
but over time, over this
period of about 1,000 years,
00:30:26.35\00:30:29.52
you have the
rise of nationalism.
00:30:29.52\00:30:32.43
So, before, the church was
the unifying force in what we
00:30:32.43\00:30:37.43
today call Europe, right?
00:30:37.43\00:30:39.40
But over time, the Germans
and the German language and the
00:30:39.40\00:30:42.74
German borders
become increasingly defined.
00:30:42.74\00:30:45.34
So, too, with France, so,
too, with the other nations of
00:30:45.34\00:30:47.68
Europe and this nationalism is
like, hey, why do we care what
00:30:47.68\00:30:52.68
this guy that sits on
a throne down in Rome?
00:30:52.68\00:30:55.58
We don't care about him, we
care about German things, we
00:30:55.58\00:30:57.79
care about French things, we
care about English things, we
00:30:57.79\00:30:59.92
care about Spanish things.
00:30:59.92\00:31:01.46
And the country that
was tipped over in the most
00:31:01.46\00:31:04.86
dramatic fashion was
France and they're like, okay,
00:31:04.86\00:31:07.73
Napoleon's like, I'm over
it, I'm over him, I'm over the
00:31:07.73\00:31:10.37
church, I'm over all
this superstition, and they
00:31:10.37\00:31:12.40
launched, back in Revelation
11, the French Revolution.
00:31:12.40\00:31:17.17
The papacy and the pope was a
casualty of their own devices.
00:31:17.17\00:31:22.34
They created a situation
that then, like, they created a
00:31:22.34\00:31:25.95
Frankenstein and
then Frankenstein came and
00:31:25.95\00:31:28.48
basically
inflicted a deadly wound.
00:31:28.48\00:31:31.95
>>JEFFREY: Well, verse 3
does say that eventually, that
00:31:31.95\00:31:33.56
deadly wound would be healed.
00:31:33.56\00:31:35.46
And so, now, we're entering
another stage, like early 1920s.
00:31:35.46\00:31:40.46
And it suggested in the
text, 'cause it's abrupt.
00:31:40.46\00:31:44.67
And it was healed.
00:31:44.67\00:31:46.00
>>DAVID: That same verse.
00:31:46.00\00:31:47.17
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, so another
political, you know, figure
00:31:47.17\00:31:50.37
steps in, in Mousseline now,
grants, regrants power to the
00:31:50.37\00:31:53.94
papal system in the
early 1920s and now we have a
00:31:53.94\00:31:57.98
resurgence.
00:31:57.98\00:31:59.65
>>TY: But that's not an
immediate, it's healed now in
00:31:59.65\00:32:04.55
1929 by Mousseline
giving back the property.
00:32:04.55\00:32:08.72
>>JEFFREY: We
have a process now.
00:32:08.72\00:32:10.03
>>TY: So, this
healing is a process.
00:32:10.03\00:32:11.93
It's not a...
00:32:11.93\00:32:13.36
>>JAMES: You see
that thing on my finger?
00:32:13.36\00:32:14.93
>>TY: Looks like a wound
that's undergoing healing.
00:32:14.93\00:32:17.40
>>JAMES: Yeah,
it's undergoing healing.
00:32:17.40\00:32:18.53
I just sliced
straight into a piece of metal.
00:32:18.53\00:32:21.90
>>TY: Did you
have to use that word?
00:32:21.90\00:32:23.14
>>JAMES: And the thing is,
is when I sliced into that piece
00:32:23.14\00:32:24.91
of metal, the flesh
showed, it was just flesh.
00:32:24.91\00:32:28.14
And here's the deal, at night,
when I was sleeping, it would
00:32:28.14\00:32:32.05
heal over, you
know, on my knuckle.
00:32:32.05\00:32:35.38
When I would wake up in the
morning, I would go like this,
00:32:35.38\00:32:37.19
oh, it would hurt, so I would
leave it like this, but you
00:32:37.19\00:32:39.52
know, inevitably, you're doing
stuff and you're not able to
00:32:39.52\00:32:42.12
be conscious and so, it would
break open again and that went
00:32:42.12\00:32:45.06
on and on and on.
00:32:45.06\00:32:46.83
When we're talking about a
deadly wound, we're talking
00:32:46.83\00:32:49.16
about something that's much
more significant than a little
00:32:49.16\00:32:50.90
slice on a knuckle.
00:32:50.90\00:32:52.50
We're talking about something
that almost brings you to
00:32:52.50\00:32:54.14
death and so, to say that that
wound is healed in this year
00:32:54.14\00:32:58.37
or with this act
or with this act.
00:32:58.37\00:32:59.81
It's been progressive.
00:32:59.81\00:33:00.94
Even Napoleon
began to heal that wound.
00:33:00.94\00:33:07.22
Though he did take the crown
out of the pope's hand and put
00:33:07.22\00:33:09.72
it on his own head, he allowed
the pope to come into that
00:33:09.72\00:33:11.89
ceremony, he allowed the bible
to again be acknowledged as a
00:33:11.89\00:33:15.72
book that doesn't have
to be burned in the street.
00:33:15.72\00:33:17.83
And so, this healing has
progressively gotten more and
00:33:17.83\00:33:21.96
more to the place where it's
being restored to what it once
00:33:21.96\00:33:25.37
was, and we still, we still
are not living in a time when
00:33:25.37\00:33:28.04
that wound is to
be completely healed.
00:33:28.04\00:33:29.97
>>JEFFREY: We're still
living in that process.
00:33:29.97\00:33:31.21
>>JAMES: That is predicted in
the rest of Revelation chapter
00:33:31.21\00:33:35.24
13.
00:33:35.24\00:33:36.28
We're gonna see that
wound completely healed in the
00:33:36.28\00:33:37.88
context of these verses.
00:33:37.88\00:33:38.91
>>TY: So, it's symbolic
language that essentially,
00:33:38.91\00:33:41.38
when it says that the
papal power was wounded and the
00:33:41.38\00:33:44.42
deadly wound was healed, we're
really saying, what the bible
00:33:44.42\00:33:47.46
is saying is that the papacy
was taken out of political
00:33:47.46\00:33:52.16
power, but it will gradually
be restored to political
00:33:52.16\00:33:56.10
power.
00:33:56.10\00:33:57.00
That's what this
language is telling us.
00:33:57.00\00:33:59.23
>>JAMES: And it tells us
this language in a really
00:33:59.23\00:34:00.74
interesting way.
00:34:00.74\00:34:01.87
It says that, in the context
of this, all the world is
00:34:01.87\00:34:04.44
going to wonder.
00:34:04.44\00:34:05.84
All the world is gonna be
amazed, all the world is gonna
00:34:05.84\00:34:07.81
be looking on.
00:34:07.81\00:34:09.01
So, here is this system that
was once despised, at least in
00:34:09.01\00:34:12.78
France, by a people that
learned of the real inner
00:34:12.78\00:34:16.89
workings of this religious
atrocity, and as they looked at
00:34:16.89\00:34:20.59
all this stuff that was taking
place, that they thought was
00:34:20.59\00:34:23.63
light and good and represented
God, but it didn't, it was just
00:34:23.63\00:34:26.93
atrocious and ugly and sick.
00:34:26.93\00:34:28.83
They stood back and they
overreacted, because not only
00:34:28.83\00:34:32.40
did they rebel against
that system, but they rebelled
00:34:32.40\00:34:34.94
against the bible, they
rebelled against God, and
00:34:34.94\00:34:36.94
we're still living in that
environment today, we're still
00:34:36.94\00:34:40.88
living in that environment,
and so, then, there's gonna be
00:34:40.88\00:34:42.11
a recovery, there's gonna be
a recovery and people are gonna
00:34:42.11\00:34:45.01
forget the atrocity and the
darkness and the evil and the
00:34:45.01\00:34:48.22
wickedness, or even in the
face, in the light of some of
00:34:48.22\00:34:51.79
that wickedness, which we
see taking place in relation to
00:34:51.79\00:34:54.59
some of the doctrines and
teachings as eternal burning
00:34:54.59\00:34:57.59
in hell or you know, the
priesthood in relation to, you
00:34:57.59\00:35:01.10
know, the abuse that takes
place because you're forbidden
00:35:01.10\00:35:04.57
to marry, you're forbidden
to marry, even in the light of
00:35:04.57\00:35:06.57
all that, people are still
going to admire the leader of
00:35:06.57\00:35:10.87
this system and the
system itself is going to have
00:35:10.87\00:35:13.88
recognition from political
powers, and so, we see that
00:35:13.88\00:35:16.88
being predicted in this verse.
00:35:16.88\00:35:18.41
All the world is gonna wonder
and they're gonna say, who can
00:35:18.41\00:35:20.15
make war against that power?
00:35:20.15\00:35:23.25
Who can speak
badly of that power?
00:35:23.25\00:35:25.12
And I think, really, if
you analyze it, we're kind of
00:35:25.12\00:35:27.99
living in that time.
00:35:27.99\00:35:30.49
>>DAVID: Certainly.
00:35:30.49\00:35:31.66
>>JAMES: When even now,
with all the history of the dark
00:35:31.66\00:35:33.36
ages, and all the history
of what's happening today, even
00:35:33.36\00:35:34.56
now, people are thinking, no,
wait a minute, this leader of
00:35:34.56\00:35:37.60
this system is,
this is a great guy.
00:35:37.60\00:35:40.64
>>DAVID: And there's a general
ignorance about the past.
00:35:40.64\00:35:42.17
You know, those that don't
know the past are doomed to
00:35:42.17\00:35:44.11
repeat it.
00:35:44.11\00:35:45.31
And there's this whole spirit
of hey, that was a long time
00:35:45.31\00:35:48.38
ago, things have changed,
everything's fine, coupled
00:35:48.38\00:35:51.78
with an ignorance of the
fact that, it wasn't just like a
00:35:51.78\00:35:54.78
few people that were killed,
we're talking hundreds of
00:35:54.78\00:35:57.32
thousands, millions of people,
killed by the church for not
00:35:57.32\00:36:02.92
following the specific
doctrinal and ecclesiastical
00:36:02.92\00:36:07.40
dictates of the church.
00:36:07.40\00:36:08.73
This is millions of people.
00:36:08.73\00:36:10.73
>>JEFFREY: And, of course,
many of the actual members had
00:36:10.73\00:36:12.03
nothing to do with that,
we're talking leadership, we're
00:36:12.03\00:36:14.14
talking the system.
00:36:14.14\00:36:15.30
>>TY: It's without the
question the greatest crime
00:36:15.30\00:36:18.67
against humanity in
the history of the world.
00:36:18.67\00:36:21.64
What the Christian church
did to the world in the name of
00:36:21.64\00:36:24.91
Jesus through the ages,
later on in Revelation, it
00:36:24.91\00:36:29.35
summarizes this by saying that
she, this power, is the mother
00:36:29.35\00:36:33.66
of all the
abominations of the earth.
00:36:33.66\00:36:36.32
Now, you can say, well, that's
exaggerating for effect, or
00:36:36.32\00:36:39.06
you can say, wait a minute,
this thing was so diabolical,
00:36:39.06\00:36:43.00
that it produced all
kinds of horrible political and
00:36:43.00\00:36:46.07
religious and social
effects, and that's what's being
00:36:46.07\00:36:50.17
described.
00:36:50.17\00:36:51.41
But I do wanna clarify
something, I think you guys
00:36:51.41\00:36:55.21
will agree with this.
00:36:55.21\00:36:56.98
James said, you know,
that people were under the
00:36:59.55\00:37:01.22
impression that he, you're
referring to the head of the
00:37:01.22\00:37:03.95
system, the pope is a great
guy, he seems to be a great
00:37:03.95\00:37:07.52
guy.
00:37:07.52\00:37:08.79
I would have a
spaghetti dinner with him.
00:37:08.79\00:37:11.53
I mean, he seems
like a great guy.
00:37:11.53\00:37:13.29
So, what we're describing,
what the bible is describing
00:37:13.29\00:37:15.80
here has very little to
do with any given person's
00:37:15.80\00:37:20.00
personality and whether
or not he's a great guy.
00:37:20.00\00:37:23.44
He very well could be a
great guy, he could be an honest
00:37:23.44\00:37:26.54
guy.
00:37:26.54\00:37:27.61
We would hope that he
would be, but the passage is
00:37:27.61\00:37:31.28
describing a system that this
person is heading up and so,
00:37:31.28\00:37:38.15
there are fundamental things
that are wrong with a system
00:37:38.15\00:37:42.59
that represents Christ,
represents God by a marriage
00:37:42.59\00:37:48.03
of civil and religious power.
00:37:48.03\00:37:50.30
That's a deadly combination.
00:37:50.30\00:37:52.07
It's a deadly combination
because, it's a beast, it can
00:37:52.07\00:37:55.60
only produce one of two
effects, to combine religion
00:37:55.60\00:37:59.47
and politics, to combine a
civil power with its military
00:37:59.47\00:38:05.05
and its laws with a religious
power can only produce one of
00:38:05.05\00:38:08.75
two effects, either
unbelief, atheism, or...
00:38:08.75\00:38:14.29
>>DAVID: That's what happened
in the case with France.
00:38:14.29\00:38:16.26
>>TY: Or religious enslavement.
00:38:16.26\00:38:18.66
But there's one thing
that it can't produce.
00:38:18.66\00:38:20.80
It can't produce
genuine, voluntary love for God.
00:38:20.80\00:38:25.57
>>DAVID: Or doesn't
lend itself to that.
00:38:25.57\00:38:28.77
>>TY: It can only, well, there
are people in the system who
00:38:28.77\00:38:31.74
do love God, but they love
God in spite of the system, not
00:38:31.74\00:38:35.58
because of the system.
00:38:35.58\00:38:36.95
The system itself, that
doctrinal system and that
00:38:36.95\00:38:39.55
combination of church and
state cannot produce anything
00:38:39.55\00:38:43.55
but the reaction of unbelief
or a slavish kind of worship.
00:38:43.55\00:38:50.39
And there are lots of
wonderful people who do love
00:38:50.39\00:38:53.26
God in the system, but again,
they love God in spite of the
00:38:53.26\00:38:57.00
system because they're
overlooking it, because
00:38:57.00\00:38:59.07
they're looking past it,
because they're not thinking
00:38:59.07\00:39:00.97
too long and hard about it.
00:39:00.97\00:39:02.50
>>JEFFREY: But even people
who are not in that system, but
00:39:02.50\00:39:04.24
are in other systems can
still have the mentality of that
00:39:04.24\00:39:08.24
system.
00:39:08.24\00:39:09.04
>>TY: Including you and me.
00:39:09.04\00:39:09.94
>>JEFFREY: Including us.
00:39:09.94\00:39:10.81
Yeah.
00:39:10.81\00:39:11.98
>>TY: so, we have to take
a break, again, we don't like
00:39:11.98\00:39:15.55
taking breaks, but we have
to take a break and then we'll
00:39:15.55\00:39:17.99
come back and we'll see if
we can finish Revelation 13, I
00:39:17.99\00:39:21.16
don't know if we can.
00:39:21.16\00:39:23.02
>>DAVID: Well, at least
we can get through verse 10,
00:39:23.02\00:39:25.03
don't you think?
00:39:25.03\00:39:26.66
>>TY: We'll do our best.
00:39:26.66\00:39:28.00
[Music]
00:39:30.23\00:39:38.87
Announcer: Digma videos
are short, engaging messages
00:39:38.87\00:39:41.31
designed for opening up
discussion with individuals
00:39:41.31\00:39:43.98
and groups regarding
the character of God as well
00:39:43.98\00:39:47.28
as for your own
personal spiritual growth.
00:39:47.28\00:39:50.09
For your free DVD sample
collection of Digma videos,
00:39:50.09\00:39:53.22
call 877-585-1111, or
write to Light Bearers,
00:39:53.22\00:39:58.56
37457 Jasper Lowell
Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:39:58.56\00:40:04.63
Once again, for your free
DVD sample collection of Digma
00:40:04.63\00:40:07.94
videos, call 877-585-1111,
or write to Light Bearers,
00:40:07.94\00:40:14.28
37457 Jasper Lowell
Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:40:14.28\00:40:20.68
Simply ask for Digma DVD 2.
00:40:20.68\00:40:23.65
[Music]
00:40:23.65\00:40:27.62
>>TY: Well, Revelation 13
is heavy, I mean, really heavy,
00:40:27.62\00:40:33.43
because it requires us to
look at actual history and to do
00:40:33.43\00:40:38.63
some identifying of
powers that have been active in
00:40:38.63\00:40:43.81
history.
00:40:43.81\00:40:44.84
And while we wanna be
sensitive, the passage is
00:40:44.84\00:40:48.41
telling us something.
00:40:48.41\00:40:50.11
The passage is telling us
that there is a power in history
00:40:50.11\00:40:52.91
that fulfilled these
characteristics, but it's the
00:40:52.91\00:40:57.59
system we're dealing with,
not any given individual in the
00:40:57.59\00:41:00.46
system.
00:41:00.46\00:41:01.56
>>JEFFREY: So, the bible's
not vague, the chapter's not
00:41:01.56\00:41:03.09
vague, it's willing to get
to the nitty gritty, to real
00:41:03.09\00:41:08.30
life.
00:41:08.30\00:41:09.26
>>DAVID: So, what do
you think of this idea?
00:41:09.26\00:41:10.47
Tell me if you like this,
you might not like it, we're all
00:41:10.47\00:41:12.60
Americans, so, right?
00:41:12.60\00:41:14.67
American citizens.
00:41:14.67\00:41:15.77
So, a number of years ago,
you travel, all of us travel
00:41:15.77\00:41:18.41
internationally.
00:41:18.41\00:41:19.57
And in the presidency,
during the time, this is my
00:41:19.57\00:41:22.41
experience, travelling
internationally, in the time
00:41:22.41\00:41:25.08
of the presidency of George
Bush, not the first George
00:41:25.08\00:41:28.88
Bush, but George W. Bush.
00:41:28.88\00:41:30.39
Man, it seems like almost
everywhere I go, particularly
00:41:30.39\00:41:33.56
in the wake of the Iraq
war, man, people would go out of
00:41:33.56\00:41:37.73
their way, when they found out
I was an American to be like,
00:41:37.73\00:41:40.40
I do not like George Bush.
00:41:40.40\00:41:43.26
And I would be like, well,
he's not my uncle, he's not my
00:41:43.26\00:41:46.57
dad, so, here's the point,
my point is this, there is a
00:41:46.57\00:41:51.01
whole system that is the
United States of America.
00:41:51.01\00:41:54.08
There is a person at the head,
now it's Barak Obama, we're on
00:41:54.08\00:41:56.38
the verge of having a
new president, but there is a
00:41:56.38\00:41:59.28
giant system underneath that,
so much so that the guy at the
00:41:59.28\00:42:02.95
top, or girl, woman, actually
could be a reasonable human
00:42:02.95\00:42:07.46
being, like you say, somebody
you'd sit down with, have
00:42:07.46\00:42:09.09
lunch, talk about you
know, basketball, baseball or
00:42:09.09\00:42:11.19
whatever, but there is
this giant system underneath.
00:42:11.19\00:42:14.96
We're talking you know,
the United States is a young
00:42:14.96\00:42:16.93
nation.
00:42:16.93\00:42:17.87
Just over 200 years.
00:42:17.87\00:42:19.80
The medieval church has been
around, we're talking 8538 and
00:42:19.80\00:42:22.64
even prior to that, the
mechanacians over there, we're
00:42:22.64\00:42:25.94
talking about a system that's
been around for more than a
00:42:25.94\00:42:28.28
millennium.
00:42:28.28\00:42:29.11
Fifteen
centuries, 16, 17 centuries.
00:42:29.11\00:42:33.31
You've got systems that are
built, systems on systems and
00:42:33.31\00:42:36.35
systems on systems that
are built into that, that you
00:42:36.35\00:42:41.12
actually could have a
person at the top who could be
00:42:41.12\00:42:43.43
somebody that might himself be
a reasonable human being, but,
00:42:43.43\00:42:47.60
and certainly let's be clear
about this, whether or not he
00:42:47.60\00:42:50.60
is a reasonable human being is
quite beside the point, he's a
00:42:50.60\00:42:52.70
child for who, he's
somebody for whom Jesus died.
00:42:52.70\00:42:57.41
He's a human being, he's
somebody for whom Jesus died.
00:42:57.41\00:42:58.97
>>JEFFREY: Somebody, a
great system could have a not so
00:42:58.97\00:43:02.78
great leader.
00:43:02.78\00:43:04.41
So, at the end of the
day, it's the system, right?
00:43:04.41\00:43:08.62
>>DAVID: So, the point
that I'm making here is that I
00:43:08.62\00:43:09.92
would not be the least
bit offended as an American if
00:43:09.92\00:43:12.92
somebody was like, hey, there
are things in American history
00:43:12.92\00:43:15.72
that I am greatly ashamed of.
00:43:15.72\00:43:17.79
In American history.
00:43:17.79\00:43:19.56
The treatment of the
native peoples, the indigenous
00:43:19.56\00:43:22.70
peoples of the United States,
the broken treaty after broken
00:43:22.70\00:43:25.47
treaty after broken
treaty, that is, slavery, right?
00:43:25.47\00:43:29.54
These are things that you
don't look back and say, you
00:43:29.54\00:43:31.34
know, I'm just so proud to
be an American, you say, I don't
00:43:31.34\00:43:35.04
like that, that is not
who I am, even though I am an
00:43:35.04\00:43:39.91
American citizen.
00:43:39.91\00:43:41.18
>>TY: The principles upon
which the nation was founded,
00:43:41.18\00:43:45.39
you agree with, but the abuses
of and the violations of those
00:43:45.39\00:43:51.69
principles, yeah.
00:43:51.69\00:43:53.56
>>DAVID: And I wouldn't be the
least bit offended if somebody
00:43:53.56\00:43:54.96
said to me, hey, look, I
got some real reservations about
00:43:54.96\00:43:57.93
America, my
response would be, so do I.
00:43:57.93\00:44:00.74
So do I.
00:44:00.74\00:44:03.04
And that may or may not be
a reflection on the specific
00:44:03.04\00:44:06.11
person, a Carter, a Nixon,
an Obama, a Bush, that's in the
00:44:06.11\00:44:09.54
White House at that moment.
00:44:09.54\00:44:11.41
So, I'm not talking about
people and individuals, we're
00:44:11.41\00:44:13.42
talking about a
system, a nation, a power.
00:44:13.42\00:44:16.72
>>TY: I like the
illustration, I do.
00:44:16.72\00:44:18.02
I think it makes a lot of
sense and it helps us to be
00:44:18.02\00:44:21.99
reasonable and fair and to
not, we do not subscribe to or
00:44:21.99\00:44:28.60
participate in any form of hate.
00:44:28.60\00:44:31.47
>>JAMES: And really, the
original point that we were
00:44:31.47\00:44:34.10
talking about, or at least
I was talking about is in the
00:44:34.10\00:44:36.91
text.
00:44:36.91\00:44:38.01
Everything we're
saying is in the text.
00:44:38.01\00:44:39.94
The text themselves tell us
how bad the system is, so bad
00:44:39.94\00:44:43.88
that it's blaspheming God,
so bad that it's seeking to
00:44:43.88\00:44:47.35
persecute God's people,
etcetera, and yet, at the same
00:44:47.35\00:44:50.02
time, the text says that
all the world wonders after this
00:44:50.02\00:44:53.22
system, and all the world
says, who's like unto him who
00:44:53.22\00:44:55.46
can make war with him?
00:44:55.46\00:44:57.19
So, what we're identifying
is the two aspects of this one
00:44:57.19\00:45:00.76
system.
00:45:00.76\00:45:01.90
So, really, everything we've
said just nails the coffin.
00:45:01.90\00:45:05.43
It just makes it very,
very clear that this is the very
00:45:05.43\00:45:07.94
system that is
identified in bible prophecy.
00:45:07.94\00:45:10.37
And we've looked at the
history, of course, but the
00:45:10.37\00:45:12.74
characteristics that we're
outlining here perfectly match
00:45:12.74\00:45:16.24
the system that
is being identified.
00:45:16.24\00:45:18.08
>>TY: Yeah, and that's
the point, that's the point.
00:45:18.08\00:45:20.12
>>DAVID: So, verse 4, you
mentioned, Ty, this is heavy,
00:45:20.12\00:45:25.32
verse 4 gets super-duper
heavy, notice I threw a duper
00:45:25.32\00:45:29.96
on top of it.
00:45:29.96\00:45:31.03
Because, so it says, so
they worshipped the dragon.
00:45:31.03\00:45:33.46
Well, we've already identified
the dragon as the devil.
00:45:33.46\00:45:36.36
This gets kinda dodgy.
00:45:36.36\00:45:38.13
So, they worshipped the devil?
00:45:38.13\00:45:40.30
You know, devil worship,
that's really unsettling, who
00:45:40.30\00:45:43.24
gave authority to the beast
and they worshipped the beast
00:45:43.24\00:45:45.41
saying, and you've quoted this
a couple times, James, who is
00:45:45.41\00:45:47.34
like the beast, who is
able to make war with him?
00:45:47.34\00:45:49.28
So, you have this wild
idea here, scripture's basically
00:45:49.28\00:45:53.72
saying, so, the dragon, who
we just were introduced to in
00:45:53.72\00:45:56.32
chapter 12, gave this power
his authority and his position
00:45:56.32\00:46:03.16
and so now, when people get
caught up with the dragon, or
00:46:03.16\00:46:07.93
excuse me, with this power,
they're really getting caught
00:46:07.93\00:46:10.83
up with this larger
thing that's taking back in
00:46:10.83\00:46:13.17
Revelation chapter 12
with this war that broke out in
00:46:13.17\00:46:15.20
heaven.
00:46:15.20\00:46:16.40
They're participating in a
way of viewing God and a way of
00:46:16.40\00:46:18.91
viewing religion that is not
Christ like, it's dragon like.
00:46:18.91\00:46:26.35
>>TY: So, people are
unwittingly worshipping the
00:46:26.35\00:46:31.35
devil by their allegiance
to this system that operates on
00:46:31.35\00:46:36.36
the principles of
the, they don't even know.
00:46:36.36\00:46:41.46
Let me show you a passage
where Jesus got to the heart
00:46:41.46\00:46:45.20
of this in John chapter 16.
00:46:45.20\00:46:48.20
I find this passage very
helpful to understand the
00:46:48.20\00:46:52.04
dynamic that's going on here
in the Revelation 13 passage.
00:46:52.04\00:46:55.88
In chapter 16 of John,
starting with verse 2, Jesus
00:46:55.88\00:47:02.22
is speaking and he's
projecting forward to a time
00:47:02.22\00:47:05.89
of persecution, and he says
they, whoever they are, will
00:47:05.89\00:47:09.59
put you out of the synagogue,
yes, the time is coming when
00:47:09.59\00:47:13.73
whoever kills you will
think, will think that he offers
00:47:13.73\00:47:20.90
God's service, he will think
that he's offering, by killing
00:47:20.90\00:47:25.41
you, he will think that
he's doing God's service.
00:47:25.41\00:47:27.44
Now, here's the key.
00:47:27.44\00:47:28.74
Verse 3, and these things,
they will do to you because
00:47:28.74\00:47:34.25
they have not
known the Father nor me.
00:47:34.25\00:47:38.12
Isn't that a powerful passage?
00:47:38.12\00:47:40.42
>>JEFFREY: Misunderstanding
of what God's all about and his
00:47:40.42\00:47:42.49
character leads people
to behave in ways that are
00:47:42.49\00:47:44.83
totally contrary
to what God is like.
00:47:44.83\00:47:46.56
>>TY: But it says they think
they're serving God, and this
00:47:46.56\00:47:49.80
is by the way, Jesus is
right here in chapter 16, he's
00:47:49.80\00:47:55.67
looking back to something,
a conversation he began in
00:47:55.67\00:47:58.77
chapter 8.
00:47:58.77\00:48:00.24
>>DAVID: Look at this, I
literally just went back to
00:48:00.24\00:48:02.24
John 8, like, waiting, yeah.
00:48:02.24\00:48:03.98
>>TY: So, in chapter 8,
Jesus is essentially saying to a
00:48:03.98\00:48:07.58
religious body of people,
a group of religious leaders,
00:48:07.58\00:48:10.79
he's essentially saying to
them, hey, you're plotting my
00:48:10.79\00:48:14.16
murder, you're about to
kill me, you say that you're
00:48:14.16\00:48:18.99
Abraham's seed and that you're
sons of God, but the fact is
00:48:18.99\00:48:23.57
that you are of your
father, the devil, who's been a
00:48:23.57\00:48:28.07
murderer from the beginning.
00:48:28.07\00:48:29.90
So, that's taking us back
to this great controversy theme
00:48:29.90\00:48:32.97
of revelation chapter 12.
00:48:32.97\00:48:34.61
>>DAVID: The idea of murder,
violence, coercion, and in the
00:48:34.61\00:48:37.11
name of God.
00:48:37.11\00:48:38.18
>>TY: In the name of God.
00:48:38.18\00:48:39.31
>>JEFFREY: You remember
when Jesus said to Peter, when
00:48:39.31\00:48:41.62
Peter's approaching him
and Jesus is talking about his
00:48:41.62\00:48:43.42
death and Jesus says,
get thee behind me, Satan.
00:48:43.42\00:48:47.06
>>DAVID: It's not like
he was literally Satan.
00:48:47.06\00:48:48.99
>>TY: Satan works
through human beings and human
00:48:48.99\00:48:50.73
systems.
00:48:50.73\00:48:51.89
>>JEFFREY: He's looking past
the individual to the system
00:48:51.89\00:48:54.20
under which that
individual is being influenced.
00:48:54.20\00:48:58.73
>>DAVID: And when Jesus says,
in John 8 there, you are of
00:48:58.73\00:49:00.54
your father, the devil,
he's not literally saying
00:49:00.54\00:49:02.37
genetically, biologically,
you're the descendant, he's
00:49:02.37\00:49:05.14
saying, you're
operating like he operates.
00:49:05.14\00:49:08.44
He's a warmonger, he's
violence, manipulation,
00:49:08.44\00:49:12.11
coercion.
00:49:12.11\00:49:13.18
>>TY: And you mentioned
earlier, the passages in the
00:49:13.18\00:49:15.02
Old Testament, the
Satanic passages, one of them is
00:49:15.02\00:49:18.52
Ezekiel 28 and that's a
passage in which one of the
00:49:18.52\00:49:22.66
identifying marks of the devil
is that there's violence in
00:49:22.66\00:49:27.46
his heart.
00:49:27.46\00:49:28.70
Now, this is before any
actual violence is acted out.
00:49:28.70\00:49:32.60
But Ezekiel's passage says
that violence is at the root
00:49:32.60\00:49:35.74
of his character and then,
that violence comes out in the
00:49:35.74\00:49:40.78
way he treats Jesus, the cross
is the manifestation of that.
00:49:40.78\00:49:45.18
>>JEFFREY: So, when it
says in Revelation 13, they will
00:49:45.18\00:49:47.32
worship the dragon, we're
not really imagining millions of
00:49:47.32\00:49:51.55
people doing this in front
of someone with a pitchfork and
00:49:51.55\00:49:55.62
horns.
00:49:55.62\00:49:56.66
>>DAVID: You and I
can worship the dragon.
00:49:56.66\00:49:58.36
If we conduct ourselves in
a way that is consistent with
00:49:58.36\00:50:01.20
the principles of Satan's
kingdom, particularly if we
00:50:01.20\00:50:04.40
did it in the name of God,
which, by the way, we should
00:50:04.40\00:50:06.97
say that the medieval church
does not have a monopoly on
00:50:06.97\00:50:10.07
perverting the name of God,
that can happen in any church.
00:50:10.07\00:50:14.28
Jesus identified it as
happening in the Jewish
00:50:14.28\00:50:17.71
system, hey, you are
of your father, the devil.
00:50:17.71\00:50:19.48
And generally, that violence
verse, for our viewers, is
00:50:19.48\00:50:22.32
verse 16 of Ezekiel 28.
00:50:22.32\00:50:26.09
So, we should say here that
the principle, there is this
00:50:26.09\00:50:29.59
giant system that's been
operating through history and
00:50:29.59\00:50:32.73
the Christian era that has
embodied and systematized, you
00:50:32.73\00:50:37.37
wrote a great article on this,
ty, systematized this way of
00:50:37.37\00:50:41.70
doing religion.
00:50:41.70\00:50:43.20
But that doesn't mean
they have a copyright on it,
00:50:43.20\00:50:45.71
doesn't mean that they're
the only ones that can behave.
00:50:45.71\00:50:47.68
>>TY: You can go so far as
to say that it's in human nature
00:50:47.68\00:50:53.05
and that religious system,
using force and violence in
00:50:53.05\00:50:57.99
God's name, is just a
corporate expression of what's
00:50:57.99\00:51:02.52
going on in all of our hearts,
according to the apostle Paul
00:51:02.52\00:51:05.19
in Romans 8, he says, that the
human heart, yours and mine is
00:51:05.19\00:51:09.80
at enmity against
God and God's law.
00:51:09.80\00:51:13.57
So, that enmity that's in
my heart, if I get together and
00:51:13.57\00:51:17.34
start a religious system
with you, Jeffrey, and then we
00:51:17.34\00:51:20.14
baptize James and then we
baptize David and we can make
00:51:20.14\00:51:24.75
a church that is simply the
corporate manifestation of our
00:51:24.75\00:51:30.52
enmity against God, but
we call it serving God, like
00:51:30.52\00:51:34.59
Jesus said.
00:51:34.59\00:51:35.66
>>JEFFREY: So, this is
important because again, in
00:51:35.66\00:51:37.46
verse 4, they worshipped
a dragon, it's subtle.
00:51:37.46\00:51:41.93
>>TY: They're worshipping
a dragon in principle.
00:51:41.93\00:51:43.73
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, yeah,
it's subtle, it's not, it gets
00:51:43.73\00:51:47.30
trivialized.
00:51:47.30\00:51:48.50
>>JAMES: Something else that
David said really makes sense
00:51:48.50\00:51:49.84
here, too, and that is that
they don't have a copyright on
00:51:49.84\00:51:53.41
this and the reason that's
important is because, in verse
00:51:53.41\00:51:56.21
4, again, it's talking
about, or in verse 3 again, it's
00:51:56.21\00:52:00.05
talking about how the whole
world will wonder, why would
00:52:00.05\00:52:02.98
the whole world wonder
after this religious system?
00:52:02.98\00:52:05.99
Well, because they
have the same principles.
00:52:05.99\00:52:08.16
The beast of Revelation 13 is
the corporate manifestation of
00:52:08.16\00:52:12.43
individuals and whatever
religion they're in, even if
00:52:12.43\00:52:15.36
they're not in a
religion, it's the corporate
00:52:15.36\00:52:17.77
manifestation
of the human heart.
00:52:17.77\00:52:19.63
Right.
00:52:19.63\00:52:21.20
>>JEFFREY: You're identifying
something they're familiar
00:52:21.20\00:52:22.44
with.
00:52:22.44\00:52:23.34
They say, wait a
second, that's how I roll.
00:52:23.34\00:52:24.57
>>JAMES: Something developing,
that's my MO, that's the way I
00:52:24.57\00:52:27.31
am.
00:52:27.31\00:52:28.88
>>TY: And that's at a
subconscious level, usually,
00:52:28.88\00:52:30.78
isn't it?
00:52:30.78\00:52:32.01
You don't even know why you're
attracted to even a political
00:52:32.01\00:52:34.08
party.
00:52:34.08\00:52:35.15
>>JAMES: Exactly, another point.
00:52:35.15\00:52:36.58
>>DAVID: So, verse 5 says
that he, this power, was given a
00:52:36.58\00:52:39.09
mouth, speaking great things
and blasphemies, and he was
00:52:39.09\00:52:42.16
given the authority to
continue for 42 months.
00:52:42.16\00:52:43.63
That verse should be really
clear to us now because we've
00:52:43.63\00:52:45.93
talked about the blasphemy
thing from Daniel, the 42
00:52:45.93\00:52:47.73
months is the 1260, yeah,
we've done that, the 538 to
00:52:47.73\00:52:50.40
1798.
00:52:50.40\00:52:51.70
We've done a lot of the
background so we can, you can
00:52:51.70\00:52:54.34
actually move
through these fairly readily.
00:52:54.34\00:52:56.27
>>TY: Just read through,
David, verses 6-10 and let's
00:52:56.27\00:52:58.77
just unpack it.
00:52:58.77\00:53:00.08
>>DAVID: Okay, then, he opened
his mouth in blasphemy against
00:53:00.08\00:53:01.24
God, to blaspheme his name,
his tabernacle and those who
00:53:01.24\00:53:03.65
dwell in heaven.
00:53:03.65\00:53:04.78
>>TY: That's Daniel 7 and 8.
00:53:04.78\00:53:05.91
>>DAVID: That's Daniel 7 and 8.
00:53:05.91\00:53:07.08
It was granted to him to
make war with the saints and to
00:53:07.08\00:53:08.55
overcome them and authority
was given him over every
00:53:08.55\00:53:10.49
tribe, tongue, and
nation, persecution, verse 8.
00:53:10.49\00:53:12.15
>>TY: The church using
violence in God's name.
00:53:12.15\00:53:16.62
>>DAVID: And all who dwell
on the earth will worship him
00:53:16.62\00:53:19.19
whose names have not been
written in the book of life,
00:53:19.19\00:53:20.93
of the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world.
00:53:20.93\00:53:23.30
>>JAMES: Talking about
the principles right there.
00:53:23.30\00:53:25.90
The contrast, the
principles of Lamb-likeness, the
00:53:25.90\00:53:28.20
principles of others-centered,
self-giving, there's the
00:53:28.20\00:53:30.64
contrast between the two.
00:53:30.64\00:53:31.71
>>DAVID: And the Lamb is
showing up here, good point.
00:53:31.71\00:53:33.31
Or, yeah, the Lamb is showing
up here, some 26 times in
00:53:33.31\00:53:36.44
Revelation.
00:53:36.44\00:53:37.41
This is a contrast,
it's a war of principles.
00:53:37.41\00:53:39.88
Verse 9.
00:53:39.88\00:53:41.48
If anybody has an
ear, let him hear.
00:53:41.48\00:53:43.08
That's straight out of, you
hear that a lot in Revelation,
00:53:43.08\00:53:46.42
it's like listen with
discernment, listen with your
00:53:46.42\00:53:48.32
heart, pray for the Spirit
that you actually get what's
00:53:48.32\00:53:51.46
going on here.
00:53:51.46\00:53:52.56
And then, verse 10 is,
the climax of this section of
00:53:52.56\00:53:57.97
scripture, he who leads
into captivity will go into
00:53:57.97\00:54:00.84
captivity, he who kills with
the sword must be killed with
00:54:00.84\00:54:03.54
the sword, here is the
patience and faith of the
00:54:03.54\00:54:06.24
saints.
00:54:06.24\00:54:06.94
>>TY: That's a crucial passage.
00:54:06.94\00:54:08.11
>>JAMES: It is.
00:54:08.11\00:54:09.31
>>DAVID: That is the fulcrum
passage that tips us into the
00:54:09.31\00:54:11.35
next beast that we'll
encounter in our next session,
00:54:11.35\00:54:14.15
but we've talked about
the idea of the lion's den.
00:54:14.15\00:54:17.22
Hey, we're gonna get Daniel
in there, they end up in it.
00:54:17.22\00:54:18.92
Hey, we're gonna have
this fire and we're gonna throw
00:54:18.92\00:54:22.26
Shaddarach, Meshach, and
Abednego into it, and then,
00:54:22.26\00:54:23.76
the people that try to
throw them in get killed.
00:54:23.76\00:54:25.86
Ecclesiastes, whatever the
passage was there, you dig a
00:54:25.86\00:54:27.50
pit, you fall into it.
00:54:27.50\00:54:28.93
You break through a
wall, you get bit by a serpent.
00:54:28.93\00:54:30.60
>>TY: You operate by
principles of force and that
00:54:30.60\00:54:33.87
force reacts upon you because
people treat you the way you
00:54:33.87\00:54:38.31
treat them, that
tends to be the pattern.
00:54:38.31\00:54:41.58
>>DAVID: You think about
the instability in the world
00:54:41.58\00:54:44.31
today, whether you're talking
instability in Europe, you're
00:54:44.31\00:54:46.51
talking about instability in
Africa, or even South America,
00:54:46.51\00:54:50.02
coups.
00:54:50.02\00:54:51.19
Hey, we can do it better
than that government, and then,
00:54:51.19\00:54:53.05
those powers that
come in operate by the same
00:54:53.05\00:54:55.09
principles, and then you
just wait another, what is it?
00:54:55.09\00:54:56.99
Five years, 10 years, 20
years, whatever it is in that
00:54:56.99\00:54:58.69
particular country, another
coup, another coup, another
00:54:58.69\00:55:01.50
coup, and the country is
sadly, tragically, in many of
00:55:01.50\00:55:04.50
these areas of the world, that
have stability are ones where
00:55:04.50\00:55:07.14
the dictator's strong
enough to squash any potential
00:55:07.14\00:55:11.31
rebellion or uprising.
00:55:11.31\00:55:13.44
but that's your point, Ty.
00:55:13.44\00:55:16.04
There's nothing redemptive
taking place, or there's
00:55:16.04\00:55:18.15
nothing new,
there's nothing novel.
00:55:18.15\00:55:20.12
So, when Jesus shows up and
it's like, hey, we're gonna do
00:55:20.12\00:55:22.62
harm to you, he's
like, alright, do it.
00:55:22.62\00:55:27.69
It's a whole new
way of doing reality.
00:55:27.69\00:55:30.36
It's a whole new
way of doing leadership.
00:55:30.36\00:55:32.46
>>TY: There's more power
in forgiveness and love than
00:55:34.93\00:55:37.67
there is in force.
00:55:37.67\00:55:39.43
That's the point.
00:55:39.43\00:55:41.04
Final point, though, in the
30 seconds that remain, here is
00:55:41.04\00:55:44.57
the patience and
the faith of the saints.
00:55:44.57\00:55:48.04
I don't know if you guys see
this or not, but I think what
00:55:48.04\00:55:49.88
that's saying is, the
whole world is operating by the
00:55:49.88\00:55:52.88
tit for tat, violence
for violence system, but the
00:55:52.88\00:55:56.22
saints, they patiently endure in
the face of that system by not
00:55:56.22\00:56:01.19
participating in it and that
loops back to chapter 12 and
00:56:01.19\00:56:06.23
verse 11, they loved not their
lives to the point of death.
00:56:06.23\00:56:11.80
So, we'll just close on
that note and come back and
00:56:11.80\00:56:13.70
continue with chapter 13.
00:56:13.70\00:56:15.67
[Music]
00:56:15.67\00:56:18.74
continue with chapter 13.
00:56:18.74\00:56:18.77