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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000403A
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00:00 [Music] 00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: This is so fun to be back in the studio doing Table 00:24 Talk. 00:25 I think we should acknowledge the fact that this isn't just 00:29 the four of us. 00:30 We've got some incredible people behind the scenes that 00:33 have all the technical knowledge, ability, and 00:36 talent, we've got Jim Hunegart leading out and just 00:40 organizing all of this. 00:41 >>DAVID: He's going in circles. 00:43 >>TY: He's going circles around us, but here's our 00:46 behind the scenes team, you guys, what a blessing they 00:49 are, we got Steve Vadano in the house, who's just, and 00:52 we've got Brandon, of course, with his living creature on 00:55 his face, he calls it a beard, but man, that thing is... 00:58 >>DAVID: That's a thing of beauty is what that is. 01:00 >>TY: It is, it really is. 01:01 So, thank you to the guys behind the scenes who are 01:05 actually making this happen, it's just a blessing. 01:09 Revelation chapters 4 and 5 is where we're at in our 01:14 discussion and these are, I think, for all of us, two of 01:19 the most incredible chapters in the bible. 01:23 There is something being said here that is without 01:27 exaggeration, on the level of astounding. 01:31 Chapter 4, verse 1, opens with this arresting line, after 01:37 these things, I looked, and behold, a door standing open 01:42 in heaven. 01:44 And then, from that beginning, chapter four, then chapter 01:49 five unfolds this incredible throne room scene where this 01:54 is all this activity taking place and multiple 01:58 intersecting personalities, it's just a very lively, 02:02 active scene, but it's not just activity for the sake of 02:07 activity, there are pivotal, crucial, vital things that are 02:13 going down in human history, and heaven and earth are 02:18 intersecting. 02:20 You have things happening in real time, on earth, and you 02:23 have the heavenly community responding to the things that 02:29 are taking place on earth. 02:30 So, let's just begin to unpack Revelation 4 and 5 and this 02:35 heavenly throne room scene, what stands out to you guys? 02:39 What's going on, first of all, beginning with chapter four? 02:42 >>JEFFREY: It says, come up here. 02:44 >>TY: Come up here, yeah. 02:45 >>JEFFREY: In verse one. 02:46 That's all I wanted to say, I just love how it says, come up 02:48 here. 02:49 >>DAVID: Climb up to the top of this tree. 02:50 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, it's an invitation. 02:51 >>JAMES: Another thing that I think is important here as we 02:53 start these two chapters is, it's the voice of the trumpet 02:55 that John heard the first time. 02:58 So, Jesus is the one communicating with him, and 03:00 the reason that's important is because sometimes, we wanna 03:03 put a time element on what we're about to see because it 03:06 introduces the vision that's introduced to us is the lamb 03:08 who was slain in the midst of the throne and we wanna 03:11 recognize that the lamb slain in the midst of the throne 03:14 picture that God is showing John is something. 03:17 This is already kind of taken place already and John is just 03:20 being shown a rehearsal of it, in a sense. 03:22 Jesus is speaking to John, he's saying, come up here, I 03:25 wanna show you some things. 03:27 And a lot of people say, oh, things that must come 03:29 hereafter, this is all future, but in a sense, it's preparing 03:33 for future events, opening the seals, but in that 03:36 preparation, Jesus is actually going backwards. 03:39 We're going to see in verse 2, the most incredible thing or 03:44 testimony of the entire book of Revelation, but it doesn't 03:47 seem that way. 03:49 And here it is, immediately, I was in the Spirit and behold, 03:52 a throne was set in heaven. 03:54 >>TY: And what sat on the throne? 03:56 >>JAMES: This throne that's sat in heaven is the throne of 03:59 God. 04:00 And Revelation chapter 12 brings this out in more 04:02 detail, now has come salvation, strength in the 04:05 power of our God because the accuser our brother is cast 04:07 out, which accused them before God day and night. 04:10 This picture right here in verse 2 is a picture of God's 04:14 throne, which is in question, God's kingdom, God's 04:17 character, which has been put, blackened by Satan, it's set 04:22 in heaven, it is established in heaven. 04:26 All of the unfallen worlds, Revelation 12 says, rejoice, 04:29 ye heavens, well, on the earth, the devil's come down 04:31 to you with great power, he knows it's time. 04:33 But rejoice ye heavens. 04:34 And so, Revelation chapter 4, verse 2, is setting us up for 04:37 what's going to follow, well, how did God's throne get set 04:40 up in heaven? 04:41 How are the questions of the great controversy answered in 04:45 heaven? 04:46 How is it that everyone in heaven is good with God's 04:49 character that the rainbow that the manifestation of 04:52 God's justice and mercy, how is that all been answered? 04:55 And Revelation chapter 5 is gonna answer that. 04:58 But I think that this point right here, God's throne is 05:01 set in heaven, that throne is yet to be set on planet earth. 05:05 It's yet to be established in our hearts and on this planet. 05:08 >>TY: Well, that raises a very significant theological and 05:12 philosophical question because when people think of God, they 05:18 tend, we tend to think of sheer power. 05:22 God is sovereign, God is powerful, God is in control if 05:25 God is anything. 05:27 So, why would God's throne have to be set at all? 05:31 Was it ever unsettled? 05:33 What is it that brought it into some kind of question or 05:40 jeopardy or, do you understand my question? 05:45 Why would there be any need... 05:46 >>JAMES: There's a question about God's throne. 05:48 >>TY: Yeah, why would there be any need at all to set or 05:50 establish it? 05:51 >>DAVID: Moments ago, James was just rattling through and 05:53 doing a very good job of sort of articulating the 05:55 significance of 4:2, but in the midst of all that, you 05:57 threw in this phrase that is probably quite familiar to us 05:59 at the table, but may not be to all of our viewers and 06:02 that's the great controversy, the great controversy. 06:06 So, within the context of that idea, just so we're clear, the 06:10 book of Revelation is set against the backdrop of a 06:12 controversy, of a conflict, of an argument, of a disagreement 06:18 over a number of things, not the least of which is God's 06:21 conduct in the governance of the universe. 06:24 That's what's taking place here which is why Satan is not 06:28 referred to as having big biceps or abs or whatever in 06:31 terms of his strength or his might. 06:33 He's referred to as a deceiver and as an accuser. 06:38 So, if he's a deceiver and an accuser, that suggests 06:42 controversy. 06:43 It suggests conflict, dispute, argumentation. 06:47 So, the idea that God's throne would've been, in some sense, 06:50 unsettled, not that his throne could be unsettled by power or 06:53 any other such thing, but if God freely grants free 06:56 creatures genuine free will, then if they resist him, as CS 07:01 Lewis famously said, you know, the greatest miracle of all is 07:06 the miracle of God making something that could resist 07:09 him. 07:10 >>TY: That's astounding. 07:11 >>DAVID: That's astonishing. 07:13 And so, God allows himself to be resisted, and in this case, 07:17 and in the great controversy described in Revelation, but 07:20 found in the whole of scripture, is this idea that 07:23 God is under scrutiny, that God and his conduct and his 07:27 ways are under investigation, under scrutiny, under 07:31 evaluation, and, at least, from Satan's perspective, they 07:35 are found, he disagrees with the way that God is doing 07:40 things. 07:41 >>TY: I think that this is very important because I 07:43 think, for many of us, that would represent a huge 07:47 paradigm shift because we don't think of God Almighty as 07:54 being subject to scrutiny, being subject to 07:57 investigation? 07:59 Isn't it the other way around? 08:00 We're subject to his scrutiny, he's investigating us, but 08:05 we're suggesting that God is the kind of God who does not, 08:12 by nature, have to make himself accountable to us, 08:15 it's a voluntary accountability. 08:17 I mean, even the premise of the gospel itself, in John 08:21 3:16, for God so loved, that's describing God's conduct, the 08:26 world, that he gave, still, we're describing God's 08:30 conduct, that whoever believes, that implies 08:33 evaluation has occurred on my part in order to believe. 08:37 So, I'm engaging my mind, my heart to believe in the 08:41 display of this love, so anybody who ends up believing 08:46 in God has moved through an evaluation process in order to 08:50 even believe. 08:51 So, God has made himself accountable, voluntarily, to 08:56 us. 08:57 That's amazing, that you could have that kind of power and 09:00 say, you know what, I'm not gonna force myself on you, I'm 09:04 gonna back up, even get off the throne, until you want me 09:08 there. 09:10 >>JEFFREY: So, the whole book of Revelation, the whole book 09:11 is like, why would God even care? 09:14 It's the revelation, in other words, why the trouble of this 09:20 revelation? 09:21 Why the trouble of disclosing yourself to humanity? 09:24 Obviously, he's communicating something there, but he values 09:28 our assessment and our judgement so much that he 09:31 would subject himself to our scrutiny. 09:33 >>DAVID: I think the important point to make here and I can 09:36 just imagine that there might be viewers that are watching 09:38 that are like, these guys are crazy. 09:40 The idea that God would be off of his throne in any sense, 09:42 the idea that God would be under scrutiny, that he would 09:45 be under evaluation or investigation, they're like, 09:48 God is God, God is sovereign, God is in control. 09:52 And we just need to say that the point here is not that God 09:56 by nature is somehow being overpowered by his creation or 10:00 any other such thing. 10:01 In terms of the resources of omnipotence are at his 10:05 disposal, that's not the issue at stake here. 10:09 This is God voluntarily disclosing his ways, his 10:13 method, his character, his interactions, who he is in the 10:17 man Jesus Christ to win an affection, to win attention 10:21 and to win loyalty from those, to use your word, Jeffrey, 10:25 that he clearly values. 10:27 I think we do not, not we, but I think there's a lot of 10:30 people that do not sufficiently appreciate that 10:32 God is in this, that we are genuinely free creatures, and 10:36 he longs to win us to himself, he that loved us and 10:41 washed us, he wants us to want him. 10:45 >>TY: You could say that God is in control but he doesn't 10:48 want control. 10:49 >>DAVID: Or you could say he's in control, but not 10:51 controlling. 10:52 >>JAMES: Yeah, that's it, I like that. 10:54 >>TY: You could say that God is in control, but he wants 10:57 something more than control. 10:59 So, if any given person in a relationship has the upper 11:05 hand, in physical strength, mental aptitude, financial 11:10 advantage, you could either use your advantages to 11:16 manipulate somebody into subjection to you, or you 11:20 could hold your resources of finance and mental aqueuity 11:25 and strength in reserve in favor of wanting something 11:27 better. 11:29 I want you to want me. 11:31 I want you, I want you. 11:34 Therefore, I want you, I want the want to go both ways, I 11:37 want desire to be reciprocal. 11:39 I love you, God seems to be saying, and I don't wanna 11:43 control you, I want you to love me back. 11:47 So, that's a pretty high objective. 11:49 That doesn't make, in my mind, anyway, that doesn't make God 11:51 look smaller in my estimation, that makes God look bigger in 11:55 more beautiful ways. 11:58 >>JAMES: He looks huge. 12:00 And this is the thing that sometimes, I think we miss 12:02 sometimes when we study Revelation, especially when we 12:04 look at prophetically and intellectually. 12:06 When John is shown, come up hither and I'm gonna show you 12:09 things that must be hereafter, we're thinking about events. 12:11 We're thinking about you know, judgements and antichrist and 12:18 all of the different interpretations, yeah, I wanna 12:21 show you something that's gonna happen hereafter, and 12:24 then, he immediately begins with God's throne being set in 12:27 heaven, as if to tell us that the most important events that 12:30 I'm going to show you in the future all tie into God's 12:34 throne being set and God's throne being set. 12:36 Everything that I'm about to show you, every prophetic 12:38 event, every prophecy, every kingdom that's risen and 12:41 fallen, all of these kingdoms, all of these prophecies, all 12:44 center in the throne of God being set in heaven. 12:47 It's all about God's throne being established in heaven 12:50 and I love that, because not only, see, John just says 12:54 that. 12:55 The reason why we've jumped into this is because that's 12:56 what it says in verse 2, it just says, God's throne is set 12:59 in heaven, and we said, oh, God's throne is set in heaven, 13:01 but the implications of that have not yet been nuanced for 13:05 us and they were nuanced all the way through the rest of 13:07 the chapters. 13:08 Chapter 5, for example, is gonna tell us how God's throne 13:10 got set in heaven. 13:11 How did it happen? 13:13 Well, when we start understanding how it happened, 13:16 then, it'll make more sense to our viewers and everyone and 13:20 us even more, it'll make more sense as to what actually is 13:24 at stake here, how God's throne was threatened, what 13:27 the answer to that threat was from God, how he established 13:30 his throne in heaven, and that, of course, in chapter 5 13:34 is just gonna be beautiful picture. 13:37 >>TY: I think it's important to notice, as we first 13:41 mentioned, that there's a lot of activity and there are a 13:44 lot of intersecting personalities, so we haven't 13:46 read much of the text, let me just, let me just call our 13:49 attention to the fact that, in verse 2, you read, James, that 13:52 there's a throne sat in heaven and there's one who is seated 13:56 upon the throne, then, in verse 3, the throne is 13:59 described as having a rainbow around it that is in color 14:04 like emerald. 14:06 In verse 4, then it says that around the throne, there are 14:09 24 elders, and on the, excuse me, 24 thrones and on the 14:16 thrones, I saw 24 elders, sitting, clothed in white 14:21 robes, and they had crowns of gold on their head. 14:23 And then, in verse 5, and from the throne proceeded 14:26 lightning's and thundering's and voices, 7 lamps of fire 14:31 were burning before the throne, which are the seven 14:33 spirits of God. 14:34 That's strange language, I wonder what that means. 14:36 Verse 6 tells us that not only are these, there are these 24 14:40 elders, but there are these four living creatures, full of 14:46 eyes, in front and on the back. 14:49 So, God, so if we could just imagine it, God is enthroned, 14:55 he's seated upon the throne, but he's surrounded with 15:00 others who apparently, by the language, are participating in 15:06 the proceedings, the events that are taking place in this 15:09 room. 15:10 Now, I think this is fascinating that the reason 15:13 why it's called the revelation is because it's referring back 15:19 to the fact that there was an Old Testament set of 15:23 prophecies in the book of Daniel that were closed, 15:26 sealed, and now, a revelation of what Daniel saw is being 15:32 disclosed. 15:33 In Daniel chapter 7, he has the same vision and in that 15:38 vision, chapter 7 of Daniel, very specific language is 15:42 used, it says there is one who sat on the throne, same thing, 15:46 he's surrounded by angels, but then it says, the judgement 15:50 was set and the books were open. 15:52 So, we have a judgement scene. 15:54 Now, commentators on chapter 4 and 5 of Revelation make the 16:00 connection between Daniel 7 and Revelation 4 and 5 and 16:03 tell us that what we have taking place here in 16:06 Revelation is not just a busy room, we have court 16:11 proceedings that are taking place. 16:13 There is a judgement that is unfolding. 16:16 So, these individuals that are in the room with God and 16:22 around God, they are seated on thrones to participate in the 16:27 unfolding procedings that are taking place. 16:31 Something's going on. 16:32 >>DAVID: Which already tells you something about God and 16:35 his manner of governance. 16:37 He's a delegator. 16:38 There's no need for that. 16:40 If you have the resources of perfect knowledge and perfect 16:42 strength, you don't need other participants. 16:45 Yeah, what are they doing there? 16:48 >>TY: You just issue orders. 16:50 >>DAVID: That's already just an insight into the fact that 16:52 God is not a micromanager. 16:54 He is involving others, as you say, in the proceedings, in 16:58 the process, which is already, because the chasm that 17:02 separates even an amoeba, a unicellular organism, to an 17:06 archangel, or not to an archangel, but to an angel, 17:08 Gabriel. 17:09 So, you go from an amoeba to Gabriel and say that space is 17:12 that big, you know, and then, you have all of the various 17:15 levels of biological life in there. 17:17 Well, the chasm, God's relationship to that spectrum 17:21 of life would be like, to use this scale in like Washington 17:27 and we're in Oregon. 17:28 I mean, the chasm, the difference between the 17:30 uncreated, I am self-existent one, and any created being is 17:36 necessarily much larger than this span. 17:40 So. 17:41 >>TY: Yeah, you could say that you and I, David, we have more 17:44 in common with the amoeba... 17:48 >>DAVID: By far. 17:49 >>TY: ...than God in all of his infinite God-ness has with 17:53 the highest created intelligence, say, an angel. 17:55 >>DAVID: In terms of, say, his nature. 17:57 Now, he has condescended to relate to us and to make us in 18:00 our image, etcetera, but the point is that why would God 18:05 need anybody on this spectrum to assist in, that's right, 18:08 it's voluntary. 18:09 >>JEFFREY: It's almost like the people participating, God 18:11 is setting it up so that they would, in a sense, realize 18:15 that they would have reached the same conclusions that God 18:17 himself would have reached. 18:19 In that sense. 18:20 >>TY: So, we're off to a good start, Revelation chapter 4, 18:23 we've gotten through about verse 6, and after the break, 18:26 we'll just come back and continue breaking it down, we 18:28 need to ask the question, more specifically, what is going on 18:32 here, what kind of judgment is this? 18:35 Who's being judged, in fact? 18:37 [Music] 18:50 >>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson, welcome to digma.com. 18:53 I am so excited about this website because you're about 18:56 to discover a powerful new way to share life transforming 18:59 messages and videos with your family, friends, and anybody 19:03 else on the planet who has access to a computer. 19:07 Digma is a Greek word. 19:08 It basically means, to show or to reveal something by means 19:13 of a pattern or an example of some kind. 19:15 It's the second half of the word paradigma, from which we 19:19 get the English word paradigm, as in paradigm shift. 19:24 And so, what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 19:27 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 19:30 paradigms and fundamental questions. 19:33 What's the meaning of life? 19:35 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 19:39 What happens when we die? 19:41 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 19:46 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 19:50 An estimated 70% of Americans have a computer right in their 19:55 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email, 19:59 and more than 400 million people are active on Facebook, 20:03 and 5 million new users are signing up every week. 20:08 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution 20:13 of massive proportion. 20:15 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 20:20 millions upon millions of homes and hearts, and that's 20:25 what digma.com is all about. 20:27 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 20:32 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 20:36 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 20:40 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about 20:46 who God is. 20:47 [Music] 20:54 [Music] 20:58 [Music] 21:04 >>TY: Okay, so we have this busy throne room scene with 21:07 all kinds of activities. 21:09 We've got 24 elders, we've got 4 living creatures, do we 21:12 wanna pause and even identify who these beings are? 21:16 >>JAMES: Well, the 24 elders is interesting, I think, that 21:19 comes right after the 7 churches because, in verse 4, 21:22 it says, and round about the throne there were 24 seats and 21:25 upon the seats, I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in 21:27 white raiment and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 21:31 Three things there, the thrones, the seats that 21:33 they're sitting in, the white raiment, and the crowns of 21:36 gold were all promised to overcomers. 21:39 >>JEFFREY: Through the seven churches. 21:40 >>JAMES: Through the seven churches. 21:41 >>TY: Oh, interesting. 21:42 >>JAMES: Yeah, so I think these 24 elders are overcomers 21:45 and the reason I think that, too, is because they're, in 21:48 chapter 5, they're redeemed by the blood of the Lamb for 21:50 every nation, kindred tongue, and people, and elder is never 21:53 used for anyone outside of human beings in the entire 21:57 bible. 21:58 Angels were never called elders. 22:00 Whenever God has, gathering in heaven, elders were never 22:03 mentioned in the, it's always human beings. 22:05 And what's really fascinating to me, I know we talked about 22:07 this a little bit, touched on it a little bit is, the elders 22:11 from this introduction right here, all through the book of 22:13 Revelation take part in informing John about different 22:18 scenes that are going to happen. 22:20 One of the elders comes and taps him on the shoulder. 22:21 One of the elders asked me this question. 22:23 One of the elders shows me this woman. 22:25 So, it's like the elders represent redeemed and the 22:28 redeemed, again, the book of Revelation's instructive to us 22:31 because it's telling us, you, these elders represent you and 22:34 this is the part you play in this plan of salvation. 22:37 >>TY: Yeah, in addition to that, we know who the 24 22:39 elders are because of the symbolism that is employed to 22:45 describe them. 22:46 Number one, there are 24 of them, which, in the book of 22:49 Revelation, later on, in chapters 21 and 22, refers to 22:52 the two divisions of human beings through history, Old 22:55 Testament, 12 tribes of Israel, New Testament, 12 23:00 apostles, in the city, 12 gates, 12 foundations, over 23:04 which the redeemed passed to enter the city. 23:06 So, 24 is a number that symbolically represents 23:11 redeemed human beings. 23:13 Secondly, we know that they're redeemed human beings because 23:16 the symbolism of the 24 elders is drawn from a sanctuary 23:19 symbolism, the Old Testament describes the fact that there 23:24 were 24 courses or 24 shifts for the priesthood where they 23:30 moved through a cycle through the year, where they were 23:33 holding the post of duty, the various priests held a post of 23:39 duty for a period of time. 23:41 There are 24 cycles. 23:43 Secondly, or thirdly... 23:44 >>DAVID: What was that text, Ty? 23:45 >>TY: Old Testament. 23:47 Find it, bro. 23:48 >>DAVID: Okay, I'll find it. 23:49 >>TY: So. 23:50 >>DAVID: I just thought you quoted it and I missed it. 23:51 >>TY: No, and then, in chapter 5, it says that they have 23:53 golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the 23:58 saints. 23:59 So, they are occupying a priestly function, a priestly 24:02 role. 24:03 >>JAMES: It even says that in verse 10. 24:04 You are made as kings and priests. 24:05 >>TY: Kings and priests, okay. 24:07 So, they're in a priestly role. 24:08 Angels are never described as having a priestly role, but 24:12 I'll go a step further, Jesus Christ himself couldn't occupy 24:16 the priestly role except by means on incarnation, 24:19 according to the book of Hebrews. 24:21 He literally became a human being in order to occupy the 24:25 priestly role. 24:26 >>JEFFREY: Hebrews 5:1 says always taken among men. 24:29 >>TY: That's right. 24:30 >>JEFFREY: The priest is always taken from among men. 24:32 >>TY: Yeah, so clearly, the redeemed. 24:35 Now, we can add to that and I know, Jeffrey, you mentioned 24:38 this scripture at one point, that when Jesus was 24:43 resurrected form the dead, there was a special 24:47 resurrection, we don't know how many people, but there 24:50 were people, according to the gospel account in Matthew, is 24:54 it? 24:55 >>JAMES: Yeah. 24:56 >>TY: Where Jesus was resurrected and some others 24:58 were resurrected with him and Paul calls them the first 25:01 fruits of redemption. 25:04 So, there are some human beings who are not awaiting 25:09 resurrection, they've already been resurrected and they're 25:11 apparently in the throne room participating in the 25:15 proceedings of the judgment. 25:18 >>DAVID: There's some great evidences there. 25:21 >>JEFFREY: So, it's like we have representation on 25:23 multiple levels, right? 25:24 >>TY: That's right. 25:26 >>JEFFREY: On multiple levels, 'cause the Christ, through 25:28 incarnation, we identify with him, solidarity, and then, 25:31 now, it's almost as if he's adding more options to 25:36 identify with, so to speak, if you understand what I'm 25:38 saying. 25:39 >>DAVID: The idea, just briefly, the idea that, I 25:40 think you said Matthew 27, which I think is correct, the 25:42 resurrected were the first fruits... 25:45 >>JAMES: Yeah, 52. 25:46 >>DAVID: ...is straight out of the Jewish economy, the feast. 25:49 You have the Passover feast that was then followed by the 25:51 feast of first fruits, which is where the priest would wave 25:54 the barley or the wheat, the sheaf in anticipation that all 25:59 the harvest is his, but here's the first. 26:01 >>JEFFREY: Paul uses that language in 1 Corinthians. 26:03 >>DAVID: Yeah, he uses that very language. 26:05 >>JEFFREY: The first fruits. 26:06 >>DAVID: The first fruits. 26:07 So, this idea that this anticipates the much larger 26:10 resurrection of all of humanity... 26:12 >>JEFFREY: And guarantees it. 26:13 >>DAVID: ...guarantees it. 26:14 Okay. 26:16 >>TY: We also can identify the four living creatures pretty 26:18 clearly in scripture because the book of Revelation is a 26:21 composite of Old Testament passages. 26:24 He's just constantly drawing from the Old Testament, 26:26 drawing from the Old Testament. 26:27 >>DAVID: Hundreds of times. 26:28 >>TY: That's right. 26:30 He's drawing these four living creatures from Ezekiel chapter 26:32 1. 26:33 >>JAMES: And Isaiah 6. 26:34 >>TY: And Isaiah 6. 26:35 >>JAMES: And I heard someone say recently that if you, you 26:37 will never understand the book of Revelation unless you 26:40 understand the Old Testament. 26:41 >>TY: That's right. 26:42 >>DAVID: [Chuckling] 26:43 >>TY: I take it David said that. 26:46 >>JAMES: Yes, the guy with the polkadot shirt. 26:48 >>DAVID: I'm sure I'm not the only one that said it, but I 26:50 did say that. 26:51 >>TY: So, the four living creatures are not human 26:53 beings, if you look at the passage, if you look at the 26:56 Ezekiel 1 passage, because they are described as four 27:00 living creatures that are around the throne and it says 27:05 that from them, lightning proceeds. 27:08 And then, when Ezekiel the prophet looks a little bit 27:10 closer, he says that, well, the lightning that was 27:12 proceeding out from and back to each of the four living 27:16 creatures, the lightning, upon closer investigation, was full 27:20 of eyes. 27:21 You got one and two options at that point. 27:24 Either he's seeing something like a horror flick where 27:27 you've got free-floating eyeballs, or you, wherever you 27:31 see eyes, there's a body behind them. 27:34 So, the four living creatures have charge over angelic 27:40 beings that proceed at their command back and forth between 27:44 heaven and earth, and this is an incredible picture because 27:49 you've got the 24 elders who are holding golden bowls, 27:53 symbolically, these are symbolic pictures. 27:55 Golden bowls full of prayers. 27:56 So, you've got human beings on earth who are praying. 27:59 They're prayer auditors, prayer processors, so then, 28:02 they're deciding what kinds of answers need to be given to 28:07 these prayers because they're human beings at a priestly 28:09 role and they identify with the human race and they 28:11 understand the human predicament and so, they're 28:13 the ones processing the prayers. 28:15 God is the delegator, he's given them that charge. 28:17 Those prayers that are passed on to the four living 28:19 creatures who dispatch angels to answer those prayers on 28:24 missions of mercy to the world and scripture fills this 28:27 picture out because Jesus himself said, on the premise 28:31 of what I'm about to accomplish in dying at 28:35 Calvary, you will hereafter see the angels of heaven 28:41 ascending and descending upon the accomplishments of the son 28:44 of man. 28:45 >>JAMES: And Matthew even says, in chapter 28 and verse 28:47 3, that the angel that descended from heaven, his 28:51 countenance was like lightning. 28:53 >>TY: Oh, where? 28:54 >>JAMES: Matthew 28 and verse 3, his countenance was like 28:58 lightning and his raiment white as snow. 29:00 There's a couple of places where angels are like 29:02 lightning. 29:03 >>TY: They associate lightning with angels. 29:05 So, this is an incredible picture, isn't it? 29:07 There's all this activity, but the activity is all focused 29:09 earthward. 29:10 It's all focused, and what does it say in Hebrews that 29:12 the angels are ministering spirits, sent forth to 29:16 minister to those who will be the ministers of salvation. 29:18 >>JAMES: That's why they look like the face of a man, 29:20 because they come in human form, they look like an eagle, 29:23 because they fly with speed, they look like an ox because 29:26 they come to minister, they're a symbol of servance. 29:29 And the other one, they have the face of a... 29:33 >>DAVID: Lion? 29:34 >>JAMES: Calf? 29:35 The man, the eagle... 29:37 >>DAVID: The oxen and the lion. 29:38 >>JAMES: The lion, strength, power, authority from heaven. 29:41 >>TY: Oh, that's good stuff. 29:42 >>DAVID: I never heard that in my whole life. 29:44 >>JAMES: Oh, yeah. 29:45 >>TY: I've never heard a lot of the things you guys are 29:47 saying. 29:48 >>DAVID: Two high fives in one session? 29:49 >>JAMES: And it's four, you know why it's four, you know 29:51 why angels are four? 29:52 Four is a significant number in Revelation, north, south, 29:55 east, and west. 29:56 The parable of the sower and the seed, four types of earth, 29:59 four horses, it's the whole human race. 30:02 So, this is all the... 30:03 >>DAVID: I'm sorry, in Revelation. 30:04 >>JAMES: Yeah, so this is all the angels. 30:05 >>TY: Love that. 30:06 >>JAMES: So, you have this picture, these angels that 30:08 come with power and authority, they come with speed, they 30:11 come in the form of human, they come to serve. 30:14 come in the form of human, they come to serve. 30:14 >>TY: Incredible. 30:16 So, all of this busy activity is going on toward ministry to 30:21 the human race. 30:23 Where does the vision go from there in chapter 4? 30:26 Where does the vision go from there in chapter 4? 30:28 >>DAVID: I just wanna ask you a quick question, maybe I 30:29 misheard you. 30:30 Did you say that the lightning has eyes? 30:32 >>TY: Yeah, in chapter 1 of Ezekiel. 30:34 >>DAVID: Okay, you don't know the verse offhand? 30:36 >>TY: Uh.... 30:37 >>DAVID: We can find it on the break and, 'cause I was just 30:39 reading through it trying to find it. 30:41 reading through it trying to find it. 30:43 I found verse 14 that says and the living creatures ran back 30:45 and forth in appearance like a flash of lightning. 30:48 >>TY: Yes. 30:50 >>DAVID: Is that the one. So, they're creatures, so they have 30:52 eyes, or is there a text that expressly says... 30:55 >>JAMES: That's the other one that basically confirms that 30:58 angels are like lightning. 30:59 >>DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking. 31:00 So, I was just wondering if there was a text that, 'cause 31:03 that was a new idea to me, this idea... 31:05 >>TY: It's verse 18, full of eyes, their rims were. 31:09 >>DAVID: As for their rims, they were so hot, they were 31:11 awesome and their rims were full of eyes. 31:13 What is a rim? 31:14 >>TY: Well, if you go back to the, yeah, if you go back to 31:17 verses 13 and onward, basically, what Ezekiel is 31:21 describing is that the four living creatures, this is 31:25 amazing, by the way, the four living creatures are around 31:28 the throne, and watch this, it says in Ezekiel 1, they're 31:30 running back and forth. 31:32 Well, it's not aimless running, they're not just 31:35 doing their cardio for the day. 31:36 No, they're running back and forth, it's describing that 31:40 they're constantly in communication, consulting with 31:43 one another. 31:44 Now, David just prayed, now, I'm thinking that this would 31:46 be, is that the best thing? 31:47 I'm gonna run over here and get his opinion. 31:50 You know what I'm saying? 31:52 It's kind of a table talk. 31:53 It's kind of a table talk. 31:54 >>DAVID: We do have the four living creatures here. 31:56 I want to be the man. 31:58 >>TY: You got these four living creatures, okay, and 32:01 they're running back and forth to one another, and in Ezekiel 32:05 chapter one, they're all moved, it says, by the spirit, 32:08 the Holy Spirit is the one, so, there's this order of 32:13 interaction, there's an orderliness to it. 32:15 The Holy Spirit is directing the four living creatures. 32:17 The four living creatures are interacting with the 24 32:19 elders. 32:21 The 24 elders are processing human prayers and the four 32:24 living creatures are dispatching angels to answer 32:26 those prayers. 32:27 It's just an incredibly active picture. 32:30 >>DAVID: The elders don't show up as such in Ezekiel 1, do 32:33 they? 32:34 >>TY: No, they don't show up. 32:35 >>JAMES: And that's the thing about it, they don't show up 32:36 in Isaiah 6 either. 32:37 So, in the Old Testament picture of the throne room 32:40 where you have these living creatures, these angels... 32:42 >>TY: I know what you're gonna say. 32:43 >>JAMES: You have no 24 elders. 32:44 In Ezekiel, you have no 24 elders. 32:47 >>DAVID: And in the interaction, you have elders. 32:49 >>JAMES: Yes, and that's another reason why these 32:52 elders represent redeemed human beings. 32:54 Because they don't show... 32:55 >>TY: Did you know that before right now? 32:57 >>JAMES: Yes, in fact, check this out, in fact, check this 32:59 out, John is specifically being shown post-resurrection, 33:05 the very thing that Isaiah was shown and Ezekiel was shown 33:08 for this very reason. 33:09 I'm gonna show you the exact same thing that he was shown. 33:12 I'm gonna show you the exact same thing that Ezekiel was 33:14 shown, but I'm gonna show you a difference. 33:16 There's 24 elders now. 33:18 How'd they get there? 33:19 Chapter 5 will tell us. 33:20 How did these elders get there? 33:22 >>DAVID: The kings and priests. 33:23 >>TY: They were redeemed. 33:24 >>JAMES: Redeemed from the Lamb that was slain. 33:27 >>DAVID: Sorry for that little diversion, I just was, okay, 33:30 that's awesome. 33:31 >>TY: Okay, so back in Revelation 4, then, we've 33:33 identified. 33:35 >>DAVID: It's the throne, and it's all of this busy 33:38 activity. 33:38 Are we ready for 5 yet, or no? 33:40 >>JAMES: Well, verse 11. 33:41 >>DAVID: Verse 11. 33:42 >>JAMES: Did you have something to say? 33:44 >>TY: I think it's important to call attention to verses 8 33:45 and 11 because in verses 8 and 11, that's where you have 33:49 heavenly voices expressing what they're witnessing in the 33:54 proceedings of this throne room. 33:58 So, I'll do verse 8, you do verse 11, in verse 8, you have 34:02 these living creatures saying holy, holy, holy, Lord God 34:06 Almighty who was and is and is to come. 34:09 >>JEFFREY: There's that thing we... 34:10 >>TY: Yeah. 34:11 >>JAMES: Was and is and is to come. 34:12 >>TY: Now, see if you guys think that there's anything to 34:16 this. 34:17 I really think that, because it's a throne room setting, 34:19 because it's a judgement setting, this is not a 34:22 statement that they're making about God's existence. 34:25 It's not an existence statement, it's not an 34:27 ontological statement. 34:28 Not saying God... 34:30 >>DAVID: You lived for a long time. 34:31 >>TY: You lived for a long time back then and you're 34:32 alive right now and boy, you're gonna keep on being 34:34 alive. 34:35 It's not an existence statement. 34:36 Yeah, it's, God, this God who was, with integrity, reigning 34:46 over the universe, who currently has maintained 34:49 integrity through all the proceedings of the great 34:51 controversy, his integrity is intact, his methods, his ways 34:53 are good and just and it will ultimately be seen that he is 34:59 the one, the only one worthy to occupy the throne 35:02 henceforth, forever into the future. 35:04 So, it's a character evaluation, not an existence 35:08 evaluation. 35:09 >>DAVID: You were holy, you are holy, and you will 35:12 continue to be holy. 35:13 >>TY: That's right. 35:14 Good, good, good. 35:15 Right, right, right. 35:16 Just, just, just. 35:17 >>DAVID: Integrity. 35:18 >>JEFFREY: In reference to his activity in the throne, in 35:19 verse 2, so they're just saying, we've assessed, we've 35:23 observed your activity in the throne room. 35:25 >>JAMES: We've gotta flesh this out, this is really good, 35:27 this is really good because the entire rest of the 35:31 chapters here, the seals, are confirming that. 35:35 In other words, all of the info in the universe has seen 35:37 that and now, the Lamb, the cross is gonna unseal each one 35:41 of those mysteries and each one of them reveals how God 35:45 deals with sin and how God deals with opposition and how 35:48 God deals. 35:49 So, the whole rest, this is setting up for the whole 35:51 unfolding, unsealing, if you will, of the history of 35:54 humankind, and how God has dealt with you, so that we can 35:56 see what all the unfolding of the universe... 35:58 >>TY: Okay, so verse 11, because back in verse 8, it's 36:01 the four living creatures who are offering this evaluation, 36:04 this assessment, holy, holy, holy, was, is, and is to come, 36:08 and then, in verse 10, the 24 elders chime in and they have 36:11 their evaluation, verse 11. 36:14 >>JAMES: Well, no, take it, Ty, take it. 36:16 >>TY: In verse 11, the 24 elders add their testimony, 36:20 there's testimony, there's witness. 36:21 There's evaluation going on and their testimony is verse 36:25 11, you, speaking to God, now we know who's under 36:28 investigation. 36:29 Now we know who's being scrutinized, to use your word, 36:31 David. 36:33 you are worthy, oh, Lord, to receive glory and honor and 36:36 power, to receive it. 36:38 Wait a minute, this is God, he doesn't have it? 36:39 >>DAVID: You receive something if it's given to you. 36:41 >>TY: Yeah, yeah. 36:43 So, here, God is voluntarily making himself subject to our 36:46 evaluation and we, in turn, are voluntarily giving to him 36:52 the throne that, by all rights, he should occupy. 36:55 >>JAMES: But we stopped giving him that glory. 36:57 >>TY: We stopped. 36:58 There was, the throne that was set was unset. 37:01 >>JAMES: Yes, Satan convinced us that God was a withholder. 37:04 >>TY: So, you're worthy, worthy is a character 37:08 evaluation statement. 37:09 Worthy? 37:10 Why does God have to be deemed worthy? 37:13 Can't he just pull rank? 37:14 Can't he just say, listen, I don't care if you think I'm 37:16 worthy or not, I'm God, it's my throne, I'll occupy it, 37:19 thank you very much, step out of the way. 37:21 But he doesn't have that attitude. 37:23 He's evaluated to be worthy, to receive glory and honor and 37:27 power for, or because you created all things and by your 37:33 will, they exist and were created. 37:35 So, the first premise upon which God is worthy is 37:40 creation. 37:41 He's the one who created all things and that is a premise 37:46 for his worthiness. 37:47 It's interesting, and we'll come right back after the 37:50 break and we'll see in chapter 5 that the evaluation broadens 37:55 to include, not only were you worthy because you created, 37:58 you're worthy because, when your creation fell, you kept 38:03 on loving us and you redeemed us. 38:06 You're worthy by virtue of creation and redemption. 38:10 And that's the progression that unfolds in the two 38:12 chapters. 38:13 >>JAMES: That was the point I wanted to make in verse 11. 38:14 'Cause it's in verse 11. 38:16 >>TY: Where is it in verse 11? 38:18 >>JAMES: So, thou hast created all things and for thy 38:21 pleasure they are, or another version says, they exist. 38:25 >>TY: Yes. 38:26 >>JAMES: They're sustained. 38:26 >>TY: They're sustained by God. 38:28 >>JAMES: Not only did you create it, but you also 38:29 sustained them. 38:29 >>JEFFREY: By your will, they exist. 38:31 >>TY: Okay, so we gotta take a break and then, we'll come 38:32 right back. 38:33 [Music] 38:44 Announcer: Digma videos are short, engaging messages 38:47 designed for opening up discussion with individuals 38:50 and groups regarding the character of God as well as 38:53 for your own personal spiritual growth. 38:56 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos, 38:59 call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper 39:06 Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 39:10 Once again, for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 39:13 videos, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 39:22 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 39:26 Simply ask for Digma DVD 1. 39:29 [Music] 39:34 [Music] 39:35 >>TY: So, we completed chapter 4 and it was just 39:37 incredible all the insights that emerged, and then, we 39:40 just seamlessly move into chapter 5 with verse 1, and I 39:45 saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne, a 39:49 scroll written on the inside and on the back, sealed with 7 39:54 seals. 39:55 So, the first word of verse 1 of chapter 5 is and, the 39:58 chapter division is just for convenience. 40:02 >>DAVID: It's an uninterrupted vision. 40:03 >>TY: It's an uninterrupted vision, it's just continuing 40:05 on, because now, what we have taking place is we have the 40:09 one seated on the throne and these are visual images, so 40:13 it's helpful to visualize exactly what's happening here, 40:17 you can picture God on his throne and he's holding a 40:21 scroll in his hand and it's sealed with 7 seals. 40:24 It's perfectly sealed, shut up to any evaluation, 40:30 investigation, it's closed, and the whole thing about 40:34 chapter 5 is that we're about to discover that Jesus is the 40:41 one and only individual who, by certain qualifications, can 40:48 open the book, the scroll that is in God the Father's hand 40:53 and do something, deal with that data, deal with that 40:56 information, deal with whatever is in that book, that 40:59 scroll. 41:00 >>DAVID: So, it's clearly a mystery. 41:02 I mean, we're encountering it as John encountered it. 41:04 It's sealed. 41:05 >>TY: Yeah, it's sealed. 41:06 Nobody knows what's in it, we begin to understand what's in 41:09 it as the picture unfolds. 41:12 >>DAVID: And there's even a pregnancy within verse 1 41:14 because verse 2, the immediate thing, when you see something 41:18 that's sealed, is hey, what's in there? 41:22 Like a package, you know, if you see a package that's 41:23 wrapped with a bow, you wonder, I wonder what that is? 41:25 So, here, then I saw a strong angel repelling with a loud 41:28 voice, who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its 41:30 seals? 41:31 It's the natural thing that would flow. 41:33 Hey, here's a document, it's perfectly sealed, hey, I 41:36 wonder what's in there? 41:38 >>JEFFREY: And even what's funny, the strong angel asks 41:40 the question, as if to say, even a strong angel is not 41:41 capable of opening the seals. 41:44 >>TY: Yeah, exactly. 41:45 >>JAMES: Here's something that's amazing, too, and I 41:46 think this is really important and this is pregnant with 41:50 great controversy theme. 41:53 Again, John is born from the Old Testament. 41:57 You go back to the Old Testament, where do you find a 41:59 sealed book? 42:00 In Ezekiel chapter 2, you see this book, oh, son of man, 42:04 hear what I say unto thee, verse 8, be not rebellious 42:07 like the rebellious house, open thy mouth and eat that I 42:10 give you. 42:11 And I looked, verse 9 and behold, a hen was sent unto me 42:13 and lo, a roll of book was written therein, and he spread 42:18 it before me and it was written within and without, so 42:20 you've got the roll, you've got it written within and 42:22 without and then it goes on to say there, and it was written 42:25 therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. 42:28 Okay, according to Ezekiel this book is filled with lamentations 42:33 and mourning and woe and that, in relation to us, is the 42:38 mystery of God being love. 42:41 What? 42:42 God is love? 42:43 He's the creator? 42:43 He's the one that created? 42:45 He's the one that caused everything to exist? 42:47 And it's filled with, our history is filled with... 42:50 >>DAVID: Bad news. 42:51 >>JAMES: Evil, pain, suffering, lamentation, and 42:53 woe? 42:54 And no one can unlock this mystery. 42:55 No one can figure out how a good God, a loving God, 42:59 created this world full of evil and pain and suffering. 43:02 No one can figure that out, no one can unlock that mystery 43:04 but the Lamb. 43:06 But in order for the Lamb to unlock that mystery, he 43:08 becomes slain. 43:09 See, the cross of Calvary is gonna unlock for us the 43:11 mystery of evil and pain and suffering on planet earth. 43:14 >>TY: So, the content of the scroll is our horrible history 43:20 as human beings. 43:21 Lamentation and woe, what's the other word? 43:24 >>JAMES: Lamentations and mourning and woe. 43:28 >>TY: All the heartache of human history is contained in 43:30 that book. 43:32 >>JAMES: That no one can comprehend or understand. 43:33 >>DAVID: Which is why verse 3 says, and no one in heaven or 43:36 on the earth or under the earth, that is to say that 43:37 people that have passed before this was able to open the 43:40 scroll, or even to look at it. 43:42 >>JAMES: And he just wept. 43:44 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, and his reaction, I was about to say 43:45 in verse 4, is that he weeps. 43:46 >>TY: John does. 43:47 >>JEFFREY: Yes. 43:48 >>DAVID: Notice the key, the word worthy is coming up again 43:51 and again here. 43:52 >>JEFFREY: Worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy. 43:54 and again here. 43:55 >>JEFFREY: Worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy. 43:56 >>DAVID: Verse 5, can I read that? 43:57 >>TY: Yeah. 43:58 >>DAVID: But one of the elders said to me, do not weep. 43:59 >>JAMES: One of the who? 44:00 >>DAVID: One of the elders. 44:01 >>JAMES: One of the elders. 44:02 >>DAVID: Which would be fascinating because they 44:04 would've been, whoever this was, one of the recipients of, 44:09 that's a great point. 44:11 Do not weep, behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the 44:16 root of David has prevailed, that suggests there's a 44:19 controversy, that suggests there's overcoming of 44:22 something, to open the scroll and to loose its 7 seals. 44:25 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of 44:28 the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders 44:30 stood a Lamb, as though it had been slain, having 7 heads and 44:36 7 eyes, which are the 7 spirits of God sent out into 44:38 all the earth. 44:39 Now, read verse 7, then, he came and took the scroll out 44:42 of the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 44:43 >>JAMES: That's the answer right there. 44:44 That is the answer to the great dilemma. 44:47 >>DAVID: I love the fact that it's an elder. 44:48 How have I not noticed that before? 44:50 >>TY: It's beautiful. 44:51 >>DAVID: That's a great point. 44:52 >>TY: So, there's a progression here from verse 2 44:56 through verse 6 that, in my bible, I circled 3 words and 45:00 drew a line between them just to remind me the question of 45:03 worthiness in verse 2, prevailing in verse 5, and the 45:09 method of prevailing in verse 6. 45:13 So, Jesus is able to unravel, open, look upon, process, and 45:23 deal with the human problem. 45:26 The sin problem. 45:28 The history of the human race. 45:29 And he's able to do that by virtue of the fact that he 45:34 condescended to enter into solidarity with the human race 45:39 through the incarnation, went to the cross, and died in a 45:43 self-sacrificing act of love for the human race. 45:49 This is what makes him worthy to open the book. 45:52 But he's not just opening the book and reading it, he's 45:56 opening the book of human woe and lamentation and all the 46:01 horrors of our history to resolve the great controversy. 46:05 He's not just kicking back on the veranda, reading the book 46:08 for entertainment, he's cracking the code of the human 46:13 condition and bringing resolve. 46:16 >>JEFFREY: That question that we pose, how long? 46:18 How long? 46:19 So, he's actively working to answer that question. 46:22 >>JAMES: Look at this, guys, okay, in this book, if this 46:25 scroll represents the pain and suffering of evil of this 46:28 world that no man can deal with, just read this verse, 46:31 then. 46:32 Verse 7, and he came and he took the book. 46:37 Jesus Christ took all the pain, all the suffering, all 46:40 the evil, from God, he received it from God, the 46:43 Father gave to Jesus, put upon Jesus all the sin, pain, 46:48 suffering, all the evil of this world was taken by Jesus. 46:52 He took it upon himself. 46:53 I mean, this is just a beautiful picture of the 46:55 cross. 46:56 He took it upon himself. 46:57 And in doing that, he has taken the book and opened the 47:02 book and now we see it all, we see that God is love, we see 47:05 how God deals with sin and suffering, we see the whole 47:08 picture now, all comes clear to us. 47:10 This mystery that we couldn't comprehend. 47:11 How can you ever explain to anyone sin, suffering, and 47:15 evil? 47:16 How can you explain that in the context of God? 47:17 There's a lot of different religions that have different 47:20 methods of trying to figure this out in relation to God's 47:22 sovereignty, this, that, and the other, but there's only 47:24 one explanation. 47:25 >>TY: The cross. 47:26 >>JAMES: The cross. 47:27 >>TY: The cross is the mystery that explains all other 47:28 mysteries, yeah. 47:29 >>DAVID: This is where God, in Christ, bears the evil of the 47:33 world, bears it. 47:34 >>JAMES: And therefore, can pull back the seals, the 47:38 mysteries of all this evil and suffering and pain and reveal 47:40 it to us. 47:41 >>DAVID: You know, I found myself saying something in a 47:43 sermon I preached just this last week, when I was at the 47:45 Wyoming camp meeting, that, I wanna bounce this off of you 47:48 guys because it sounds maybe just a little wrong, or a 47:53 little blasphemous, but I think it's good. 47:55 And that is this idea, so you have the three members of the 47:57 godhead, you have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, right, 48:00 we don't have time to develop that here, but scripture 48:01 describes God as a plurality. 48:05 You know, God the Father, who we just saw seated on the 48:07 throne, that's an easy one, and then you have the Lamb 48:10 that comes in and then the Spirit is also here, but you 48:12 know, definitively in other places. 48:14 So, anyway, this idea here that the only one of the three 48:18 members of the godhead, tell me if you like this or if you 48:21 resonate with it, that would know experientially what it is 48:27 to be a human being, and then, furthermore, what it is to 48:30 die, to bear the weight of the sin of the world, God clearly, 48:34 and it's not to say the Father didn't suffer, the Spirit 48:37 didn't suffer, in the plan of salvation, but to say, the 48:39 Father did not become a man. 48:42 >>TY: Nor did the Spirit. 48:43 >>DAVID: Nor did the Spirit. 48:45 Jesus becomes a man, so in some sense, in some 48:48 significant sense, he is uniquely qualified to 48:51 represent God to humanity, because he is God, and then, 48:55 he is conversely, or similarly, qualified to 48:58 represent humanity to God. 49:01 >>JEFFREY: Because he's equally human. 49:03 >>DAVID: Because he's a human being. 49:03 >>TY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 49:05 >>DAVID: To me, I just think this is, I think this is 49:06 amazing, astonishing. 49:08 He is the only one worthy because he is God and he 49:14 became a man and he bore, as you said, the weight of the 49:19 scroll, the woe, the mourning, the lamentation. 49:23 He's the Lamb slain. 49:26 >>TY: Yeah, you're referring to more than the cross, you're 49:30 referring as well as to the incarnation. 49:34 >>DAVID: The whole incarnation. 49:35 >>TY: And that's in the text, David. 49:37 >>DAVID: Please. 49:38 >>TY: In the text, it says, let me find it here, that he 49:43 is, verse 5, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of 49:47 David, why that language? 49:48 >>DAVID: 'Cause he's a human being. 49:49 >>TY: Yeah. 49:51 That language is to tell us, he came through the human 49:53 lineage of Israel, it's a lineage statement. 49:56 >>JEFFREY: He's a member of the human family. 49:57 >>TY: He's a member of the human race. 49:58 >>DAVID: First verse of the New Testament, the book of the 50:00 genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of 50:03 Abraham. 50:04 You cannot make sense of the story of Jesus without 50:06 understanding the Old Testament story, the story of 50:08 Abraham, the story of Moses, the Old Testament story. 50:10 Jesus comes through that lineage. 50:12 >>JEFFREY: So, the Lord of history, basically, came into 50:15 history. 50:17 Real time. 50:18 >>TY: He didn't just travel geographically. 50:20 >>DAVID: Like, hey, I gotta go down there. 50:21 >>TY: Yeah, I gotta go down there. 50:23 He travelled in being. 50:26 He became what he previously was not. 50:31 He became a human being and came through human lineage. 50:35 That's remarkable. 50:37 If there's anything worth believing, that's worth 50:41 believing. 50:42 >>JAMES: And apparently, this is really important to 50:44 Revelation 5. 50:46 Because in Revelation 5, it defines Christ as the lion of 50:49 the tribe of Judah, the root of David, which outlines his 50:52 humanity, but then, in verses 11, all the way through the 50:55 rest of the chapter, verse 14, my eyes are getting bad, it 51:00 identifies the Lamb as being worthy of worship. 51:04 In heaven and earth and under the earth. 51:06 Everyone's worshipping the Lamb. 51:07 Well, only God, only God receives worship from all of 51:11 creation. 51:12 So, here in this chapter, what David said is basically a 51:16 summation of Revelation chapter 5. 51:19 In Revelation chapter 5, there's a very important point 51:21 that's being made here. 51:22 Jesus Christ becomes the lion of the tribe of Judah, the 51:24 root of David, he's a human, but he's also still God. 51:27 He's also worthy of the worship of all of his 51:30 creation, heaven, earth, and under the earth. 51:32 >>JEFFREY: As I'm listening to this, I'm thinking, man, when 51:34 people normally think of Revelation, they do not think 51:36 about what just went on in the last 5 minutes, you know, the 51:39 content matter is, it's dripping with gospel, isn't 51:45 it? 51:46 Dripping with redemption. 51:48 >>JAMES: In fact, what we just discovered is, is that the 51:51 lamb, which is a symbol of the cross, it's introduced here in 51:56 Revelation chapter 5, right? 51:58 The Lamb symbol is introduced. 51:59 And the way it's introduced is the Lamb slain. 52:01 So, it's a symbol of Calvary. 52:02 So, Calvary now is, whenever you read Lamb, which is how 52:06 many times is the word Lamb used in the book of 52:08 Revelation? >>DAVID: Like 28, 29 52:09 Yeah. 52:09 >>DAVID: Again and again. 52:11 >>JAMES: So, whenever you read that word Lamb in Revelation, 52:12 yeah, again and again, what you get in there is the cross, 52:15 the cross, the cross, the cross. 52:17 >>JEFFREY: So, it's just overwhelmingly crowded with 52:19 the cross. 52:20 >>JAMES: Yes. 52:21 >>DAVID: Ty, what you just said, if there's something 52:23 worth believing, this is it, I love that. 52:26 That's great. 52:26 I wrote that down. 52:27 You know, I have said before, on my own, preaching, that 52:29 history is filled with stories of men who thought they could 52:33 become God. 52:35 But with only one story of the God who condescended to become 52:39 a man. 52:40 And this takes us back to former lessons that we've 52:43 already had and that is that God becomes a man, according 52:46 to the New Testament, I'm thinking particularly of the 52:47 book of Hebrews for two reasons, at least two reasons. 52:49 Well, three I can think of. 52:51 For the purpose of empathy, sympathy, identification. 52:54 For the purpose of identification to the point of 52:57 death, which is a universal part of the human experience, 52:59 and so that he could be a priest. 53:02 I mean, if God is like that, if that is true, which I 53:07 believe it is, I'm persuaded that it is true, this is the 53:12 best conceivable good news. 53:15 >>TY: You can't imagine, if somebody said to you, hey, the 53:18 human race is messed up with lamentations and woes and just 53:22 crying and weeping, you have free reign, create the best 53:29 possible picture of reality and resolve that you could 53:33 come up with in your imagination. 53:35 This is what you would come up with, you would say, well, if 53:37 I had to come up with the best solution, I wouldn't think 53:43 that the best solution would be a dictator. 53:46 I don't think the best solution would be a tyrant. 53:48 I think the best solution would be humility and love and 53:52 sacrifice. 53:53 If there's anything that could break our hearts and win us 53:56 back, it would be that. 54:00 >>JEFFREY: You know what really moves me? 54:02 One thing here that really moves me is verse 12, that 54:06 after the Lamb is presented, the only one worthy to open 54:09 such and such, in verse 12, there's a loud voice, and 54:12 then, there's praise, and it says, worthy is the Lamb who 54:16 was slain to receive, and then, it gives us a list. 54:19 To receive power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, 54:22 glory, and blessing, and then, as I read that, I thought, 54:25 wait, nothing that is listed there is anything that God did 54:30 not previously, already possess. 54:32 So, it's kinda awesome, in our case, in the redeemed case, 54:38 that which we receive, we did not previously possess. 54:41 So, there's a change that takes place. 54:43 But with God, he's subjecting himself to this whole process 54:47 and in the end, at the end of the day, at the end of the 54:50 story, what has he gained? 54:52 >>JAMES: What he already had. 54:53 >>JEFFREY: Squat. 54:54 [Laughter] 54:56 All he gets in the end. 54:57 >>JAMES: I wouldn't have said it that way, Jeffrey, you are 54:58 one... 54:59 >>JEFFREY: No, I'm serious, that's what the text says, 55:01 it's in the Greek, right? 55:02 >>JAMES: I don't find that word in the bible, that's all. 55:04 >>JEFFREY: Listen to me. 55:05 At the end, he gets that which he already had. 55:07 In other words, the whole process is God just 55:10 vindicating the worthiness of being and having what he has 55:15 always been and had. 55:17 >>JAMES: And the sad thing is, there are some people who 55:18 won't give him that. 55:19 He's gonna reveal to everyone that this is really all that I 55:23 actually am. 55:24 >>JEFFREY: And that, to me, is like... 55:25 >>TY: And it's not, when you say that the whole process is 55:28 to vindicate his worthiness, we need to clarify that we're 55:33 not here describing a God who's on an ego trip, he's not 55:36 a narcissist, he's not saying, listen, the whole point here 55:39 is for you, I want you to stand still and praise me for 55:42 eternity because I need that. 55:45 It's not that kind of thing. 55:47 >>JEFFREY: Not that at all. 55:48 >>TY: What it is is that God is worthy to occupy the throne 55:52 by virtue of creation and redemption and that pans out 55:57 to what's best for the universe. 55:58 >>DAVID: They voluntarily, yes. 56:00 >>TY: That's best for us. 56:03 Because he's the source of love and life and light and 56:08 everything good and that's the amazing thing about the God 56:12 that we encounter in scripture, he rules only on 56:15 the basis of his worthiness, which solicits our praise and 56:22 the glory that we give him for all eternity future. 56:25 [Music] 56:28 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-15