Participants:
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000402A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: Well, we've begun our study in Revelation in our first 00:24 session by looking at some of the features and patterns of the 00:26 book. 00:27 We'll do a little bit more of that as we get into this 00:30 session, but I wanna begin with another throwaway question so 00:33 that we can just learn a little bit about you guys. 00:36 If you had to choose right now, David. 00:38 James, right now, if you had to choose right now to forfeit 00:43 hearing or sight, and we wanna be sensitive about this, we 00:47 wanna be sensitive because there are people who actually... 00:51 >>DAVID: Of course. 00:52 >>TY: ...by no choice of their own, don't have sight or 00:54 hearing, this is not a light matter. 00:56 But there's a point to this. 00:58 If you had to choose one or the other, which would you retain? 01:01 >>JAMES: Well, I'm losing my hearing anyway, so, I guess 01:04 sight. 01:05 >>JEFFREY: Sight. 01:06 >>DAVID: Sight. 01:07 >>TY: Sight? 01:07 Really, all of you, sight? 01:08 Retain hearing. 01:09 >>DAVID: No hesitation. 01:10 >>TY: Me, too, but I've asked that question to other people 01:13 and everybody says, hearing, I'd rather retain sight. 01:17 >>JEFFREY: No, no, no, that's what I meant, I'd rather retain 01:19 sight. 01:20 >>TY: Oh, you'd rather retain sight. 01:21 >>JEFFREY: That's what we all meant. 01:23 >>JAMES: I'm losing my hearing anyway. 01:25 >>TY: Okay, so the opposite. 01:26 I would rather retain hearing. 01:29 >>DAVID: You would? 01:30 >>TY: Yeah, because think about it, think about this for a 01:32 minute. 01:33 If you just close your eyes, everything that we're doing here 01:37 would continue. 01:41 We'd be having this conversation, information would 01:43 be coming in, processing, right? 01:49 But if you couldn't hear, suddenly, there would be a major 01:56 problem with information processing. 01:59 I mean, you could get around it, you'd deal with it, you'd deal 02:01 with it, what's that? 02:02 >>JAMES: I can read your lips. 02:03 >>TY: You could, you would master that. 02:06 The book of Revelation has both sights and sounds. 02:12 The book of Revelation, over and over again, says, I saw, and 02:15 over and over again, it says, I heard, over and over again. 02:20 When we look at the first prophecy in the book of 02:23 Revelation, the seven churches, over and over again, for every 02:28 one of the churches, there is this repeated refrain. 02:32 >>JAMES: The Spirit says. 02:34 >>TY: Yeah. 02:35 >>JAMES: Him that hears. 02:36 >>TY: Yeah, listen to what the Spirit is saying. 02:39 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the 02:43 churches. 02:44 The seven churches prophecy in Revelation is a prophecy that 02:50 has both a local historical application to the people of the 02:54 time that John is writing to, but it also has a universal, 02:58 prophetic application and I think it'd be great to just 03:03 flesh out both of them. 03:05 But before jumping right into that, what about the book of 03:09 Revelation as a whole? 03:11 There are different ways to approach the book of Revelation, 03:13 there are different interpretive methods. 03:16 What are some of those interpretive methods that are 03:19 popular, that people use? 03:21 I mean, it's a book that has a bunch of symbols and prophecies, 03:24 so you come to the book, you have to have a methodology, a 03:27 consistent method. 03:29 What are some of the methods that people do use? 03:32 >>JEFFREY: I wonder if one of the most popular ones, at least 03:33 today, would be what they call futurism, that is, to take the 03:36 prophecies and to confine them at some mysterious point in the 03:41 future. 03:42 >>DAVID: Right. 03:43 >>TY: So, all of it happens in a short space of time, relatively 03:46 short space of time, but it's all in the future. 03:48 >>JEFFREY: It's all in the future. 03:49 >>TY: That's called futurism. 03:51 >>JAMES: Futurism. 03:52 >>TY: What... 03:53 >>DAVID: And not just the future from out time, but obviously 03:54 from John's time, because John was writing about, 'cause he's 03:57 writing 2,000 years ago from out rime, he's writing about 03:59 something that's well in the future. 04:01 And the proponents of the future system believe that the events 04:04 described here are yet future. 04:05 >>JEFFREY: And some of them are, but... 04:08 >>DAVID: But the idea that all of them are, and I think the 04:12 word you used was confined, that's a good word, that it's 04:14 largely, or almost entirely, for some, you know, future, short, 04:21 relatively short period of time. 04:22 >>JAMES: And that's based on Revelation 4, where John is told 04:24 to come up here and I'll show you all things that must be 04:27 hereafter. 04:28 So, I would say futurists primarily start from chapter 4. 04:31 The churches, they'll allow a little bit of wiggle room, but 04:33 forward and onward, I'll show you things that must be 04:36 hereafter is usually futurism. 04:37 And then, the opposite of that is preterism. 04:39 >>TY: That's a big word, what does that mean? 04:41 >>JAMES: Now, preterism is completely the opposite of 04:43 futurism in that it's, 'cause pre is what comes before, so 04:48 you've got everything being pushed to the past. 04:51 >>TY: Pastism. 04:51 >>JAMES: Usually, hey, that's a new word. 04:54 >>JEFFREY: That's a better word. 04:55 >>TY: Pastism. 04:56 >>JAMES: David, can you give us a little bit of background on 04:57 pastism? 04:58 >>DAVID: I like that, I'll take it. 04:59 >>JAMES: Okay. 05:00 Usually, it's John's time and right in the... 05:03 >>JEFFREY: The Roman empire. 05:05 >>JAMES: Yeah, the Roman emperor, Renera was the 05:07 antichrist, etcetera. 05:08 Right in that period of time, most of, if not all of 05:10 Revelation is passed. 05:11 >>TY: So, one interpretive method is preterism, it all 05:15 happened, all this stuff happened pretty much in the 05:17 past, during the time of John. 05:20 Futurism, it's all gonna happen in a relatively short period of 05:23 time in the future. 05:25 Is there any other method? 05:29 >>DAVID: Where there is a school of thought called idealism that 05:33 is basically the idea that Revelation is not dealing with 05:36 specific times or events or history as such, it's dealing 05:41 with big picture ideas. 05:43 >>JAMES: Principles. 05:44 >>JEFFREY: So, they're symbols of some idea. 05:46 >>DAVID: You got it, the symbols of evil, the symbols of nations, 05:50 etcetera, and that's this idea. 05:53 And there's some truth to that in the sense that these are 05:55 symbols of something, but rather... 05:58 >>JEFFREY: Like, there is a dragon in the text. 05:59 >>DAVID: You got it, rather than there just being a general 06:01 symbol, though, I believe it's symbols of specific nations, not 06:03 just principles in some general sense. 06:06 >>TY: Okay. 06:08 Any other methods? 06:09 >>JAMES: There's a fourth method. 06:10 >>TY: A fourth method. 06:11 >>JAMES: Yeah, there's a fourth method, which we probably, all 06:13 of us here probably think is the best because it's based in the 06:16 text, it's based in the introduction of the book of 06:19 Revelation. 06:21 The introduction of the book of Revelation, there are three 06:22 verses, actually, that I think apply or support this 06:25 interpretation. 06:26 >>TY: What is this interpretation? 06:28 >>JAMES: The interpretation... 06:29 >>TY: Does it have a name? 06:30 >>JAMES: Yeah, it's called historicism. 06:31 >>TY: Historicism. 06:31 Okay. 06:33 >>JAMES: And even though that sounds like it's putting 06:34 everything in the past like history, 'cause history we think 06:37 of history as that which has happened, historicism actually 06:40 allows for the prophecies to be past, present, and future. 06:45 And it really, actually... 06:47 >>DAVID: It was through history. 06:48 >>JAMES: Yeah, and it really actually, it embraces all of the 06:51 other ones that we've talked about, it embraces futurism, it 06:54 embraces preterism, and it embraces idealism, it brings 06:56 them all together. 06:58 >>JEFFREY: So it avoids an overemphasis on one or the 06:59 other. 07:00 >>JAMES: Yes, perfect. 07:01 And the text that it's based on, now, the main text it's based 07:05 on, of course, is gonna be verse 19, but building to verse 19, 07:07 you have two other verses. 07:09 The first one is verse 4 of Revelation, and it reads like 07:13 this. 07:15 John of the seven churches, which are in Asia, grace be unto 07:17 you, and peace from him which is, present tense, which was, 07:24 past tense, and which is to come, and from the seven which 07:27 are before his throne. 07:28 So, the idea here is this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who 07:32 is God. 07:33 This is the revelation from God, from Jesus, it's a revelation of 07:36 him who is, who was, and is to come. 07:40 Therefore, the revelation itself is gonna be a revelation of 07:42 things which are, which were, and which are to come. 07:46 >>TY: Okay. 07:47 >>JAMES: And you find this in the book of Revelation, for 07:49 example, in this verse, verse 7, it talks about Jesus coming and 07:53 it says, every eye shall see and even those that pierced him. 07:56 Well, by the time John is writing, that's already taken 07:58 place. 07:59 By the time John is writing, Jesus has been pierced. 08:02 He's being shown something right here, reference is being made to 08:05 something right here, we get Revelation 5, you've got the 08:07 lamb that was slain that's in the midst of the throne. 08:09 Well, the lamb that was slain, way before John hit the Isle of 08:12 Patmos. 08:13 You get to Revelation 12, you've got the dragon that was in 08:15 heaven and it deceived a third of the angels, well, that didn't 08:18 happen in John, that happened hundreds of years, thousands of 08:21 years, that happened before creation, or around that time. 08:23 So, a lot of the events that John is shown are, in a sense, a 08:27 setup. 08:29 They're past prophecy, past history that's setting up the 08:32 scenario for his time and for the scenario for the end of 08:35 time. 08:36 >>JEFFREY: The reason I like that approach the best is 08:38 because it presents God as a God who has been involved in the 08:43 affairs of humanity from the beginning and will continue to 08:47 be 'til the end. 08:48 If we just parked in one of these other schools of thought 08:52 or interpretations or methods, we would confine God's activity 08:56 to the past. 08:57 >>TY: Or the future. 08:58 >>JEFFREY: Or the future, right, or the future, right? 09:00 And so, it's almost as if these other approaches deny God's 09:05 activity in the past and deny God's upcoming activity in the 09:09 future whereas historicism argues that, no, God has been 09:13 present and involved through the whole process. 09:17 >>TY: I like that, too, but I think it's more specific, isn't 09:20 it? 09:21 Because the book of Revelation, in verse 19, James, you 09:26 mentioned verse 19, but didn't actually take us there, but in 09:30 verse 19, John is told, specifically by Jesus, write the 09:35 things which you have seen and the things which are and the 09:40 things which shall take place after this. 09:43 So, that verse is pretty explicit. 09:48 Jesus is saying, the things I'm about to unfold to you are about 09:51 things that are presently taking place in your time, John, right 09:55 there, right in your time. 09:57 And the things that I'm gonna be showing you are about things 10:01 which are to take place after this. 10:03 So, what I meant when I said, it's more specific, really, the 10:08 book of Revelation, as we begin to study it, we discover that 10:12 it's dealing with a period of time from the time of John, what 10:17 we might call the apostolic period from first century, the 10:22 time of Christ. 10:23 Straight through, things that will take place after this, 10:27 straight through to the final and full establishment of the 10:31 kingdom of God. 10:33 New heavens, new earth. 10:35 So, that's the swath of time that we're dealing with in the 10:39 book of Revelation, and there's another pattern. 10:41 We've been mentioning patterns and traits and what the pattern 10:45 is that we didn't specifically name in the book of Revelation 10:50 is that over and over again, we see that John is following this 10:55 particular historical trajectory. 10:57 With the seven churches, he begins with the church of 11:01 Ephesus, which, if you look at the characteristics of the 11:06 church, easily are identified as the apostolic period. 11:10 >>DAVID: That is to say the first century church. 11:12 >>TY: The first century church. 11:13 And then, the seven churches prophecy extends all the way to 11:19 the seventh church or to the end time segment of human history, 11:23 the time in which we live. 11:25 But then, it doesn't stop there. 11:27 John then backs up and there's the seven seals prophecy. 11:30 Seven churches, seven seals. 11:32 And that prophecy doesn't pick up with the end time period and 11:37 extend from there and it doesn't... 11:39 >>DAVID: It recapitulates. 11:40 >>JEFFREY: Overlaps. 11:42 >>TY: It recapitulates, it's a repeat and enlarged pattern. 11:44 There's an actual, intentional, literary pattern. 11:48 The seven seals begin with the first century and extend to the 11:51 end. 11:52 Then again, seven trumpets, back up, repeating things that are 11:57 taking place over the same swath of history. 11:59 So, the thing that's brilliant about the historicist method of 12:05 interpretation is it accounts for John's time, it accounts for 12:11 all the history that followed John's time and it accounts for 12:13 the time in which we live and yet future to us, it accounts 12:16 for all of that time. 12:19 So, that's why I think all of us strongly favor the historicist 12:24 method, it speaks very strongly. 12:28 >>JEFFREY: It's as if God wants to, like we've been saying, 12:31 disclose his activity on earth and he kind of makes himself 12:35 almost predictable. 12:37 So, as we look at the way God has acted and intervened in 12:41 history, we can sort of understand what he's up to today 12:44 and what his plans are for tomorrow. 12:46 It's almost like he's making himself... 12:48 >>DAVID: Tell me if you like this, on this note, I don't 12:51 think this idea that God is largely confined either 12:53 primarily to the past or largely, primarily to the 12:56 future, I don't think that's something that is exclusively 12:58 the domain of prophecy, I think that we can fall into a very 13:01 similar trap, so as to say, oh, the manna. 13:05 Oh, the walking on the water, oh, the parting of the Red Sea. 13:08 God has worked, or in the future, when God returns and he 13:13 puts everything to rights, he will work. 13:16 But the tricky part for us, isn't it, is okay, but what's 13:19 God doing today? 13:20 >>JAMES: Good, good point. 13:22 >>DAVID: There's a really cool story of this in the book of 13:23 John, John chapter 11, John also wrote the book of Revelation, 13:26 but in his gospel, he tells this quick story that people might 13:30 remember, and it's the story of the death of one of Jesus's 13:32 friends, a guy named Lazarus, and Jesus hears that Lazarus is 13:36 sick and he purposefully delays and he shows up not in time to 13:41 save Lazarus from death. 13:43 When he arrives, Lazarus has already died and Jesus, Sister 13:47 Martha comes out and sort of questions Jesus's timing and his 13:51 judgment in coming so late and in that interaction, it's 13:54 fascinating. 13:56 She says, Jesus, if you would have been here, he would not 13:59 have died. 14:00 Translation, you could've fixed this in the past. 14:04 Jesus then says to her, your brother will right again. 14:07 To which, she says, I know that he will rise again in the 14:10 resurrection at the last day. 14:11 >>JAMES: Okay. 14:13 >>DAVID: But she's done, with her, she's done what we do 14:15 today. 14:16 God has worked, God will work, but then, what Jesus says is 14:21 fascinating, he gives the present tense of these very 14:24 significant words, hugely pregnant in Old and New 14:26 Testaments, I am the resurrection and the life. 14:31 It's not just that I have worked and not just that I will work, 14:33 but I am working right here, right now, and to me, that's 14:37 always been really helpful to see, that he's not just the God 14:39 of history, preterism, if you will. 14:41 He's not just the God of the future, futurism, prophetically 14:46 speaking, as well as in all aspects of God's interaction 14:49 with human history, he is the God of history. 14:52 He is working, he is moving through history, and in 14:57 Revelation, we should not be surprised, then, that God is 15:00 depicted in Revelation as moving through human history from the 15:05 time of the prophet, in this case, John, through the swath, 15:09 as you say, of human history, down to the climax. 15:11 >>JAMES: You asked the question, tell me if you like this, that's 15:14 what you said before you started, right? 15:16 >>DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:17 >>JAMES: So, I'm telling you I like it, and the thing I like 15:19 about it, too, is if you read these two verses in Revelation, 15:21 before you get to 19, Revelation 1, verse 4, and then Revelation 15:24 1 verse 8, so 1, verse 4, when it describes God in these three 15:29 dimensions, past, present, and future, it starts with, from him 15:32 which is, from him which is. 15:35 >>DAVID: Yeah, it starts with a present tense. 15:37 >>JAMES: That's the emphasis. 15:38 >>DAVID: I am. 15:39 >>JAMES: Yeah, and then you look in Revelation chapter 1, verse 15:41 8, I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, says the 15:43 Lord, which is. 15:44 >>DAVID: Who is and then was and yeah. 15:47 >>JAMES: Which he is. 15:48 >>DAVID: I love that. 15:49 Well, Moses is standing at the burning bush, who shall I say 15:51 sent me? 15:52 I am. 15:53 I am that I am. 15:54 Present tense of the verb to be. 15:56 So, God is not only active in the past, he's not only going to 15:58 be active in the future, but God is alive, he's not an idea, he's 16:00 not a philosophy, he's not a concept, he's alive. 16:03 >>JAMES: And that makes such a huge difference to John because 16:06 he's on the Isle of Patmos. 16:07 He's basically in Alcatraz, he's basically been abandoned and 16:11 there comes Jesus right now, right there in the present. 16:16 >>TY: But isn't it true, though, that, I think that sounds like a 16:22 really good idea, it appeals to my intellect, but is that real? 16:29 Is that happening? 16:31 >>JAMES: You lost me there, is what happening? 16:33 >>TY: You're saying that it's not just that God is acting in 16:36 the past, mentioning things like the Red Sea, we might mention, 16:40 you know, Peter walking on water, I think you mentioned 16:42 Lazarus raised from the dead. 16:44 The future, we know that crazy, wonderful things are gonna take 16:47 place. 16:48 But right now, I think, some people, I had somebody say to me 16:53 not long ago, there's no proof that your Christian view is true 17:00 right this moment. 17:02 You can point to things written in a book that happened in the 17:05 past, you can point to things that you say are gonna happen in 17:08 the future, but none of the stuff that the record of your 17:12 Holy Book says happened in the past are happening right now. 17:15 So, it sounds kina, it sounds like fiction. 17:18 >>JEFFREY: I think that's why it's important to understand 17:20 what God has done in the past. 17:22 An individual would not even know what to look for. 17:24 Like, what do you look for? 17:26 When somebody poses that question, yah, but what is God 17:28 doing now? 17:29 Where is God? 17:30 I haven't seen him working. 17:32 You would ask, well, what are you looking for? 17:34 Like, are you looking for God walking down the street in the 17:38 corner, crossing, what are you looking for? 17:40 So, how do we know what we're looking for? 17:42 >>TY: That's a great way to say it. 17:44 >>JEFFREY: The way that we know what we're looking for is by 17:46 understanding God being identified dint he past and that 17:48 gives us the clue on what God is doing in the present, I think 17:52 that's why the past is so critical. 17:54 >>TY: Yeah. 17:55 >>DAVID: And something I wanna add to that, I cited miraculous 17:57 things from the past and miraculous things that happen in 17:59 the future, but God works in ways that can be quite normal. 18:03 I mean, he does that. 18:05 WE see, for example, Jesus comes down to earth, he's a human, 18:08 he's just walking around, he's talking to people, he's having a 18:10 conversation with the woman at the well, he's having dinner at 18:12 Zacchaeus's house. 18:13 Not everything that God does is fantastical. 18:15 He's not a magician, he's not pulling rabbits out of the hat. 18:17 Hey, look at this card trick. 18:19 And too often, I think, when we're looking, and I love your 18:22 point there, Jeffrey, when we're looking for what God is doing, 18:24 we're looking for the fantastical, for the 18:26 sensational, for the amazing, and God does do that, 18:29 incidentally, God can work in really powerful, miraculous 18:33 ways, even in the present tense. 18:35 But a lot of the ways that God works is like a sunset, the 18:38 birth of your first child, a beautiful symphony, you're like, 18:41 man, God is alive. 18:42 >>TY: Well, one of the ways, one of the ways, the reason I really 18:45 was feeling the weight of that question, when somebody brought 18:51 it to me, is because, for me, actually, and I don't know why 18:55 this is, I'm not as impressed when I read about the miracles 18:59 in the bible or hear about the miracles of the past. 19:02 What I think is incredible, and you happened to mention one of 19:04 them, is the conversation that Jesus had with the woman at the 19:07 well. 19:08 Or the interaction that Jesus had with Nichodemus and the 19:12 information, the light, the perspective that emerged that is 19:17 of far more significance than... 19:21 >>DAVID: Pulling a rabbit out of a hat. 19:22 >>TY: Pulling a rabbit out of a hat. 19:23 Doing a miracle. 19:24 Not that miracles aren't, you know, incredible and amazing, 19:27 but the seven churches? 19:29 >>DAVID: Pastoral. 19:31 >>TY: This is pastoral. 19:32 This is Jesus interacting with us on the level of our thoughts 19:36 and our feelings and our moral existence. 19:41 He's saying these are the things that are wrong with the way 19:44 you're relating to me and others, and these are the things 19:47 that need to be corrected. 19:49 These are the good things, I'm gonna affirm the good things 19:52 that are happening and these are the kinds of things that I would 19:56 like to see happen and I promise you, if you follow through with 20:00 this, there's gonna be incredible things that are 20:02 coming your way. 20:03 That's all pastoral. 20:04 There are no miracles. 20:06 It's, and for me, the best experiences I've ever had, quote 20:11 unquote, with God... 20:12 >>DAVID: Were not miraculous in nature. 20:14 >>TY: No. 20:15 They were me realizing something. 20:18 >>JEFFREY: 100%. 20:19 >>TY: Realizing something. 20:20 >>JEFFREY: Same here. 20:21 >>TY: Realizing our relationship has a quality to it that I need 20:25 to nurture. 20:27 Realizing that somebody to my left or to my right is falling 20:31 apart at the seams and I feel prompted to speak words that 20:36 will lift them out of that darkness, hopefully. 20:39 Realizing, yeah, realizing an insider perspective that opens 20:45 God's character to me more clearly so I think, wow, God is 20:50 more beautiful than I've ever imagined and there's the 20:53 testimony, or what the bible calls the witness in my spirit 20:56 that God is. 20:57 It's there. 20:59 I know, someone can say, I can prove to you scientifically God 21:03 doesn't exist, and I would immediately turn back and say, I 21:07 can't prove to you that he does, but I know that he does. 21:10 You hear the difference? 21:12 I can't prove to you that God exists, but I can tell you I 21:16 personally know God exists because of the things I see in 21:19 my mind. 21:20 >>JAMES: You know, Ty, you're right on track with this. 21:22 >>DAVID: And the experiences that you've had with him. 21:23 >>TY: Yeah. 21:24 >>JAMES: And what's amazing to me is that the seven churches 21:26 specifically perfectly line up with the illustrations you've 21:29 given us. 21:30 Especially the illustration of the woman at the well. 21:32 Because when you look at the woman at the well, you're 21:34 looking at a woman who is broken. 21:36 You're looking at a woman who is coming to the well at a time of 21:37 day when no one else is gonna be there, for a specific reason, 21:40 that Jesus actually fleshes out, she's had 5 husbands and the guy 21:43 she's living with right now isn't even her husband. 21:46 She doesn't wanna be seen, she doesn't wanna be known, she 21:48 doesn't wanna be identified by any of the townspeople and here 21:51 comes Messiah and he's coming to the place where she is. 21:55 He knows her brokenness, he knows her history, he knows 21:58 everything about her and he loves her and not only so, but 22:01 the way he comes across to her causes her to get so excited 22:04 about all the bad things she ever did that she's willing to 22:06 run into town and tell everyone that this is the Messiah based 22:09 upon the fact that my terrible history that he just revealed to 22:12 me, that's the picture of the seven churches. 22:14 >>DAVID: I guess the only, anyway, I didn't wanna cut you 22:18 off there. 22:19 >>JAMES: This is the picture of the seven churches. 22:20 The seven churches is a picture of these churches that have all 22:22 of these different issues, this history, these weaknesses, 22:25 theses faults. 22:26 The last church is so bad that God just wants to make, God just 22:29 wants to throw up. 22:30 You just make me sick, I just feel like puking. 22:33 >>TY: But I love you and here's some promises. 22:35 [Laughter] 22:36 >>JAMES: And yet, Jesus is coming and he's revealing 22:42 himself before he even gives, he's in the midst of the 22:44 churches. 22:45 Not just two of them, but all seven of them. 22:46 And so, you see Christ in the midst of the churches, just like 22:48 you saw him going to the Samaritan woman. 22:50 Just like you see him going to Nichodemus, that self-righteous 22:53 legalist. 22:54 Just like you see him hanging out with the disciples and 22:55 leading them after they denied him, leading them forth to 22:58 Galilee. 22:59 Just a picture, the relational picture is what the book, 23:02 Revelation's not just prophecy, it's this relational picture. 23:06 >>DAVID: It's a home and a prophecy and a pastoral letter. 23:09 You go ahead first. 23:10 >>TY: No, we have to take a break. 23:12 You say... 23:13 >>DAVID: Very, very quickly, I love your point there about the 23:15 woman at the well, how he comes and he's with her and in each 23:18 church, each of the seven churches, Jesus says, I know. 23:23 I know. 23:25 I know. 23:26 I know, I know, I know. 23:28 And the love of God is greater than his knowledge of our, not 23:34 that it's greater, but the knowledge of our weaknesses, our 23:36 failures, our faults and foils, God's like, hey, I know about 23:38 that. 23:39 >>JAMES: It's swallowed up. 23:40 >>DAVID: And you've had 7 husbands, I know about that, and 23:41 I know, and at the end of the day, you've got this text here, 23:44 right at the outset, verse 5, back to Revelation 1 verse 5, to 23:48 him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood. 23:52 And I'd love to make a point here about the order there, the 23:54 chronology. 23:56 It's who loved and washed, but we often think about God in the 24:00 reverse of that. 24:01 Man, I hope I can get cleaned up so that I can be worthy of God's 24:04 love and his affection. 24:06 But now, who loved us, I know, yeah, I know, yeah, I know. 24:11 I love you now let's, let's. 24:12 >>JAMES: Clean it up. 24:15 >>DAVID: Let's clean that up. 24:16 >>TY: So, let's take a break on that note, that's just, that's 24:18 the gospel right there. 24:19 >>JAMES: Amen. 24:21 [Music] 24:32 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 24:35 Well, you're certainly invited. 24:36 Visit our website at lightbearers.org. 24:39 In fact, you may wanna make it your homepage because we're 24:43 always adding something new to strengthen your relationship 24:46 with Jesus. 24:47 At lightbearers.org, you'll find thought-provoking blogs and 24:51 verse-by-verse bible studies on a variety of vital topics. 24:55 Our online resource center has an excellent lineup of books, 25:00 CDs, and DVDs that present God's word with clarity and power. 25:06 Our presenters include, Jeffery Rosario, James Rafferty, David 25:12 Asscherick, Ty Gibson, and more. 25:15 Asscherick, Ty Gibson, and more. 25:16 We also maintain an archive of audio and video messages you can 25:20 access free of charge. 25:22 Feel free to 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Light Bearers table for you. 26:28 [Music] 26:34 >>TY: There's some astounding stuff that comes to the surface 26:37 in the first prophecy in Revelation, which is the 26:40 prophecy of the seven churches. 26:41 Now, we've mentioned that there's a historic scope. 26:45 We've pointed out that the seven church extend from the apostolic 26:49 period, first century, straight through to the end, to the end 26:53 of the world, to what is sometimes called the end time or 26:55 the eschaton. 26:56 So, that's the period covered, but the deep stuff that we 27:02 really want to bring to the surface is the pastoral stuff 27:08 that's going on. 27:09 >>JAMES: The content. 27:10 >>TY: Yeah. 27:11 John is pastor, poet, and prophet, we've mentioned. 27:15 Here we see that John is the channel for the pastoral 27:19 ministry of Jesus himself. 27:21 Jesus is the one who is said to be in the midst of the seven 27:28 candlesticks, which are symbolic for the seven churches, he's 27:32 there. 27:33 >>DAVID: And that's sanctuary language. 27:35 >>TY: That's sanctuary language from the Old Testament. 27:37 >>JEFFREY: That's verse 20. 27:38 >>TY: Yeah, so let's just jump right into it. 27:40 The seven churches prophecy basically is chapters 2 and 3. 27:44 >>JAMES: Well I love what you just said, Ty, and it was like 27:46 you were making an astounding statement, but I think it's an 27:50 instructive statement, I think that the book of Revelations is 27:53 very instructive for us today, and you said that John is, I 27:57 can't give all the emphasis that you gave, John is actually the 28:01 instrument for the pastoral ministry of Jesus. 28:04 >>TY: Yes. 28:05 >>JAMES: I thought, well, yeah, so are we. 28:07 I mean, that is what we are, right? 28:09 Jesus, we are the body of Christ. 28:11 And Jesus is the head and we are to be the pastoral ministry for 28:13 Jesus. 28:14 I really like that because the book of Revelation is giving 28:16 that picture for us so that we can actually take that in and 28:19 say, wow. 28:20 >>JEFFREY: Is that the seven churches? 28:22 The rise and fall of that attempt, of the church trying to 28:25 fill that role through history. 28:27 >>TY: Well, that's a great perspective. 28:29 >>JAMES: Yeah, I wasn't thinking of that. 28:31 You're bringing something else to the table, now, and this 28:33 is... 28:34 >>DAVID: You go ahead, 'cause I was just gonna... 28:36 >>TY: Well, I'll tell you why I think the pastoral element in 28:38 the book of Revelation, and specifically, the churches is so 28:41 important is because it shows the personable dimension of God. 28:48 God's character, God's heart is on display here. 28:54 It's not just a book that is filled with symbols to be 28:58 interpreted and decoded. 29:00 It's a book in which God is leaning in, Jesus is leaning in. 29:04 He's taking people by the hand, by the arm, he's saying, listen, 29:07 listen, listen, I see what you don't, let me explain to you 29:13 where your dangers lie and let me give you some remedies, let 29:16 me tell you how that you can flourish and thrive. 29:20 There's kind, the kind of conversations that we have with 29:23 people we love, that we sit down with people and we say, listen, 29:26 I don't know if you can, this happened to me just last night, 29:29 I had the difficult task of sitting down with a young 29:33 couple, one of which I've known since this person was a child 29:39 and love her dearly and I had to tell them some hard stuff. 29:44 I didn't want to. 29:45 In fact, I tried to talk myself out of it. 29:48 But they set up the appointment. 29:50 And we had to sit down and I said, can you bear what I need 29:55 to tell you? 29:57 And they said, yeah, in fact, we're here because we need you 30:00 to tell us. 30:01 And they were so open to it. 30:04 I think that that's the spirit we need to have with Jesus. 30:06 You wanna tell us some hard stuff, we know we need to hear 30:09 it, but here's the thing, this girl looked into my eyes last 30:13 night and said, the reason why we wanted you is because I've 30:16 known you a long time, there's a friendship there, and she said, 30:20 I knew that you would tell us the hard stuff that we need to 30:22 hear and then she looked straight into my eyes, she said, 30:25 and I've known you for a long time and I know you love me. 30:28 And that's the powerful combination, isn't it? 30:31 >>JAMES: That Christ has. 30:32 >>TY: That you see in Jesus. 30:33 I'm gonna tell you the truth, but I'm the one who's faithful 30:38 and true to you. 30:39 I'm the one who loves you, so I'm not telling you anything 30:42 that will hurt that's not for your best good. 30:47 And I'm not gonna tell you anything that hurts that I don't 30:49 have a remedy for. 30:51 >>JEFFREY: And by the way, I know we're about to jump in the 30:53 first church, but I love the fact that he begins with 30:55 affirmation. 30:56 >>TY: Yeah. 30:57 >>JEFFREY: And then, he goes into some instruction. 31:01 I love that fact, you know. 31:03 That's a beautiful... 31:04 >>JAMES: Again, the book of Revelation's instructive. 31:06 It's pastoral, but it's instructing us. 31:08 And I was grabbing these pictures because I wanted us to 31:11 use them as an illustration of what, so, in the book of 31:13 Revelation, we see these different pictures, what we look 31:16 like, you know, what our strengths and weaknesses are. 31:20 And as Jeffrey said, he always starts with the strengths, like 31:23 this picture of Jeffrey specifically. 31:25 >>TY: That's a strong picture. 31:26 >>JAMES: Look at the strength. 31:27 >>TY: I didn't even know that was Jeffrey. 31:29 >>JAMES: Yeah, look at the strength in this picture, you 31:30 know what I'm saying? 31:32 And so, we start with the strengths, and we say, yeah, but 31:33 Jeffrey, that's kind of scary, too, you've got a strong, but 31:37 it's, and that's what God does, he wants to emphasize the 31:41 positive first and then, that makes us more receptive. 31:44 And the first thing that he emphasized that I think is just 31:48 incredible is the fact that he's just there, he's just with us. 31:51 >>JEFFREY: And he's hanging out in the midst of the lamp stand, 31:56 you know, of the churches. 31:57 I love that, too. 31:58 >>DAVID: Each of the, we've mentioned the part about poet, 32:02 John is a poet and this really comes out in the, we've talked 32:05 about the 7 cycles, you have the churches and then you have the 32:07 seals and then you have the trumpets, etcetera. 32:09 But each of the letters or the admonitions and encouragements 32:13 to the seven churches follow a pattern. 32:15 The pattern of to the angel of the church that they all start 32:19 that way and then the I know, the positive, the affirmation, 32:24 transitioning, if there is some point of rebuke or of 32:28 condemnation, there are two churches that don't have that. 32:31 And then, closing with a to him that overcomes and then, he that 32:35 has an ear let him hear. 32:36 Every one of them follows that basic pattern. 32:39 So, it's helpful for us to see that, in each, to me, this 32:44 establishes that God has a consistent and really 32:49 fair-minded way of interacting with people. 32:52 He's not playing favorites. 32:53 He engages with these people and then he engages with these 32:55 people and then he engages with these people in the same way. 32:59 >>JAMES: One thing I wanna add to that, David, that I found 33:01 fascinating is a recent discovery. 33:02 You know how it is with the book of Revelation, especially, but 33:04 in the bible, you read it for years and years and years, then 33:07 all of a sudden something clicks and you're like, whoa, I never 33:11 saw that before. 33:12 And there's something in the seven churches that I never saw 33:14 before. 33:15 And that is that every single one of the seven churches 33:18 includes a promise that applies to the new heaven and the new 33:22 earth. 33:23 You're going to have a crown, you're going to sit with me at 33:25 the throne, you're going to be an appealer at my temple, you're 33:27 going to have a new name, you're gonna have, every single one of 33:29 the churches takes us all the way down past the second coming 33:33 and the time of the 1,000 year judgement. 33:35 All the way down and plants us right in the new heaven and the 33:38 new earth. 33:39 >>DAVID: That's beautiful. 33:40 >>JAMES: And you see this as part of the cycle of the seven 33:42 churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and then, of 33:44 course, the last section of Revelation. 33:46 >>TY: That's interesting. 33:47 >>JAMES: Yeah. 33:48 >>TY: I'm, so that means then, this is totally new to me, what 33:51 you just bring, that means that not only do the seven begin with 33:56 the apostolic period, first century, and go all the way to 33:58 the end, but in each one of them, it goes all the way to the 34:03 end. 34:04 >>JAMES: Each one of them ends with promises that pertain to 34:06 the new heaven and the new earth. 34:07 And each one of the cycles... 34:09 >>TY: John the poet. 34:10 >>JAMES: Each one of the cycles ends with that new heaven, new, 34:12 you know, I used to read the book of Revelation, the reason 34:14 why this is incredible to me, is 'cause I used to read the book 34:15 of Revelation, I used to think, begins in apostolic age, ends 34:18 with second coming. 34:20 Begins in apostolic age, ends with second coming. 34:21 Begins, and then, the last one, ends with second coming, but 34:24 gives us some more details that weren't in the last 3 cycles 34:27 about the new heaven and the new earth. 34:29 But no, each one of them, like let's say, for example, the 34:31 seals, that's the next section, the seals has this turnout, if 34:36 you will, where John has this pause in Revelation 7 about the 34:39 144,000 being sealed. 34:41 >>TY: Kind of an interlude. 34:42 >>JAMES: Yeah, an interlude. 34:43 And he has this great multitude picture and that picture takes 34:46 place in the new heaven and the new earth where they walk beside 34:49 the rivers of life, they don't hunger anymore, they don't 34:51 thirst anymore, they walk with the lamb and he walks beside 34:54 them, the sun doesn't light, all of this new heaven, new earth 34:57 terminology is right there in the seals. 34:59 It's in the trumpets, also, which is amazing to me because 35:02 it completes this picture of this cycle. 35:05 >>DAVID: And I suppose the takeaway here is that God always 35:07 has the best end in mind for everybody to be speaking. 35:12 Which, when you read some of the descriptions and his diagnosis 35:16 of some of these churches, the fact that he could still have 35:18 such a positive, optimistic, hopeful, love believes in all 35:22 things, hope's in all things outlook, again, back to Ty's 35:25 point, tells a lot about the personability of God. 35:28 Just as a bit of a confession here, I know that none of you 35:32 are priests, but just allow me to confess here for a bit. 35:34 For the longest time, I found the book of Revelation to be 35:37 somewhat difficult because I felt like I was trying to decode 35:41 a, almost like you're trying to crack... 35:43 >>TY: The Da Vinci Code. 35:45 >>DAVID: Yeah, that kind of a thing to where, primarily, what 35:49 was going on was information. 35:50 It's the transmission of information. 35:52 And certainly, there is that, God wants to communicate some 35:55 data about the future, about the times in which we live, I get 35:58 that, and we'll have ample time to discuss that, but it's really 36:02 interesting, when you take that sort of decoding view rather 36:06 than taking the more pastoral, poetic view, you can, it can 36:09 become very academic, where now I know the truth and I'm gonna 36:13 go tell others the truth rather than, well, so what's the truth 36:17 for me? 36:18 Have I left my first love? 36:19 Have I, you know, you go down some of those itemizations that 36:22 God has for the seven churches and if you deal with it 36:25 academically, merely in its historical context, well, then, 36:27 we get screened, but what if God is saying to you and to me and, 36:33 as we read, hey, look, you know, have you been eating things 36:36 sacrificed to idols? 36:37 Or the equivalent, the modern equivalent of that, whatever 36:39 those points of rebuke might be, gotta take that on board. 36:42 And not just the rebuke, but the positive, you know, what you're 36:45 talking about here, hey, you know, I see the end, you're 36:47 gonna be a pillar in the temple, you're gonna have a new name. 36:49 So, I love that idea that God, even when he's in the midst of 36:52 rebuke, he sees the end. 36:54 >>JEFFREY: And even further than that, not only that God sees the 36:58 end, but that in order for us to live satisfying lives, we have 37:02 to leave them in the context of this, the end. 37:06 >>JAMES: Yes, and that's one of the reasons he shows it to us. 37:07 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, so every single church, I love what you're 37:08 saying, has that trace to the end, and I think the point there 37:11 is, I think, the individual has to orient themselves. 37:14 You wanna live a meaningful life, you wanna have a great 37:16 marriage, you wanna be a great parent. 37:18 >>JAMES: Yep, compass north. 37:19 >>JEFFREY: Keep the compass on true north, and therefore, 37:21 everything in your life takes that direction, you know. 37:25 >>TY: Can I just push the pause button right there? 37:27 We have to take a break. 37:28 [Music] 37:39 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary that 37:42 traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women who 37:46 encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 37:49 literature. 37:50 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light 37:57 Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 38:03 Once again, to receive your free copy of A Light in Zambia, call 38:07 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell 38:15 Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 38:19 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 38:23 [Music] 38:29 >>TY: Not only does the seven churches prophecy reveal 38:33 segments of history that are unfolding, but I think it's 38:37 super interesting that we see Jesus, as we've mentioned, on 38:42 pastoral display from which we can learn how to navigate our 38:47 relationships. 38:48 I mean, just look at the way he does it. 38:51 Jesus is revealing defects and dysfunctions, but only in the 38:57 context of love and acceptance and promise. 39:00 What if we were to do all of our relationships like that? 39:03 What if we were to, what if we were to enter into hard 39:06 conversations with people we're close to by saying, listen, I 39:11 wanna tell you that you're incredible and the amazing 39:16 things that I've seen and you are and you have and you're a 39:23 blessing. 39:24 Now, there's something I need to tell you. 39:26 [Laughter] 39:27 You know what I'm saying? 39:28 Then, you're in a context of acceptance and love. 39:30 Jesus does that over and over and over again. 39:34 So, in that context, people can bear, I can bear, if you guys 39:37 ever have anything hard to tell me, you first need to begin by 39:40 telling me how much you love me. 39:44 >>JAMES: Biblical psychology 101. 39:45 >>DAVID: He loved us and washed us. 39:46 >>TY: Yeah, that's right, that's right. 39:48 So, let's get into the churches. 39:49 What's going on? 39:50 There's seven of them. 39:51 The first one is Ephesus. 39:53 What's going on here? 39:54 >>DAVID: For me, when I look at, just to highlight one thing that 39:57 jumps out, each of the churches, I try to say, what's the major 39:59 takeaway? 40:00 And for me, personally, when I look at the first church, the 40:02 church of Ephesus, I see the big takeaway in verse 4. 40:05 Nevertheless, this I have against you that you have left 40:07 your first love. 40:09 That's the message for me, that that's possible to be done, that 40:13 you can be on fire, you can be enthusiastic, you can be all 40:16 keyed up about the goodness, which certainly, the apostolic 40:18 church was. 40:19 And which I was, when I first came into the faith, I feel 40:22 like, most people that are converts to Christ, I'm saying, 40:25 especially if they come from outside in, there is a zeal, 40:28 there is a passion, there is a vigor, and it's like somebody 40:31 said to me not long after I was converted, hey, don't forget, 40:33 this is a marathon, not a sprint, and I think a lot of 40:36 people think that it's a sprint, they run the entire, and they 40:38 think, oh, that religion thing didn't work for me. 40:40 They literally leave their first love that they were passionate 40:44 about. 40:45 They burn out. 40:46 and so, the takeaway for me on this is, hey, remember from 40:49 where you have fallen, and what I take that to mean is go back 40:52 to that, what was the thing that originally captivated you in the 40:55 beginning? 40:56 Go back to where you last saw the light, the joy, the wonder, 41:00 the enthusiasm of that connection... 41:02 >>JEFFREY: So, it's practical. 41:03 >>DAVID: It's practical. 41:04 >>JEFFREY: You know, the awesome thing here is, I love the fact 41:08 that I have this one thing against you, it has nothing to 41:12 do with departing from right theology, it has nothing to do 41:16 in any of those respects. 41:17 The implication, it's possible to be perfectly clear on your 41:22 theology, it's possible to be... 41:24 >>JAMES: Trying those that say they are apostles that are not, 41:26 have faith... 41:27 >>JEFFREY: Yes, it's possible to be a regular student of the 41:29 bible, it's possible to regularly engage and still not 41:33 have the love of God in your heart. 41:35 Still be a jerk, still be obnoxious, still be a 41:40 misrepresentation of Jesus. 41:43 >>TY: It's, you've lost your first love. 41:45 It's not you've lost your first doctrinal realization or you 41:48 lost your first powerful academic insight and you forgot 41:52 that verse you memorized. 41:54 Not that any of that is insignificant, but you've lost 41:57 your first love. 41:58 You used to love me. 41:59 You used to love me. 42:00 >>DAVID: And you used to love others. 42:02 >>TY: And you used to love others and you don't love me and 42:04 you don't love others anymore the way you did when you first 42:08 realized this. 42:09 >>JEFFREY: And number 5, remember where you have fallen, 42:11 so a lack of first love is considered a spiritual fall to 42:16 Jesus. 42:17 >>TY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 42:18 >>JEFFREY: That's powerful. 42:18 >>TY: That is very powerful. 42:20 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, 'cause we think, what's a spiritual fall? 42:21 Oh, I've fallen, I've had a moral fall and we think the 42:24 worst of, we can imagine, what does that mean? 42:27 But we never think, you know what, I just don't have that 42:33 same gentleness and sweetness about me anymore. 42:37 According to Jesus, that's considered a spiritual fall. 42:40 >>TY: Wow. 42:42 >>JEFFREY: Which is heavy. 42:43 >>JAMES: One takeaway on this for me, in relation to 42:47 everything we've said is, when you, the history's important. 42:50 When you look at the history of the early church, this is 42:52 something that happened gradually. 42:54 It was not perceptible to them. 42:57 They didn't perceive it happening, it happened over 42:59 time. 43:00 So, it wasn't like, one day, they were on fire and the next 43:01 day, they woke up and they weren't on fire anymore. 43:03 It was slowly, slowly weaning away, and so, I think that part 43:06 of what I think losing a first love is, and this is what Oswald 43:09 Chamber says, he says, the greatest enemy of our love for 43:12 Christ are our works for Christ. 43:15 So, we come to Christ, first love, we have nothing on our 43:18 hands to bring simply to his cross, we claim. 43:21 We fall in love with him because we realize we're wretched 43:24 sinners and we've never been righteous, we're skateboarding 43:26 pop punks, whatever, pop rock punks, and we come to him and he 43:30 just embraces us, he, and then, we're just like, on fire, and 43:33 then we start you know, doing this and we start doing that and 43:37 we start paying this and we start paying that and that goes 43:40 on for months and then it goes on for years and pretty soon, we 43:42 get to the place where we don't quite feel like we're coming to 43:45 Jesus with nothing in our hands. 43:47 We got a lot of stuff in our hands to bring. 43:49 That's how we're losing our first love. 43:51 And so, then, Christ, and sometimes, it does happen 43:53 through a fall, Christ reminds us, you know, the beginning, 43:56 finding out where it first started is remembering that your 43:58 entire dependence was on me. 44:00 It wasn't all about stuff that you were doing. 44:02 And that firs love ignites again. 44:04 >>TY: Okay, what about the next one, church number two, which is 44:07 Smyrna in chapter 2, verses 8-11. 44:10 >>DAVID: The thing that jumps out at me, if you don't mind if 44:13 I just dive in. 44:14 >>TY: Dive in. 44:15 >>DAVID: To me, I love verse 9, this idea that, I know your 44:17 works, tribulation, and poverty, and then I love this 44:19 parenthetical statement, but you are rich. 44:22 This is one of the two churches of whom Jesus gives no 44:25 constructive criticism or rebuke, it's all positive, and 44:28 what I love about this is, look, what the world sees is not what 44:32 I see. 44:33 You know, you don't have goods, you don't have the material, but 44:37 Jesus is like, let me be clear on this, you're rich. 44:39 Which is fascinating because when Jesus comes to the last 44:41 church, he's gonna say, yet, you think you're rich, but you're 44:44 actually poor, where this church, hey, you might appear to 44:47 be poor, but you're actually rich. 44:49 >>TY: Not only are you poor, but the Smyrna church is under 44:54 tribulation, it says. 44:56 So, this church is under persecution. 44:58 There's some terrible stuff going down and then, Jesus says, 45:01 but you're rich. 45:03 So, wealth and riches is weighed and calculated on a different 45:11 level than we tend to weigh and calculate riches. 45:17 So, in what sense were they rich? 45:19 Well, they're rich in love for Jesus, they're rich in the 45:22 gospel, they're rich in understanding, rich 45:24 relationally. 45:26 >>JAMES: They're rich in faith. 45:27 James says, rich in faith. 45:28 >>TY: Yeah. 45:29 >>DAVID: And when you look at the period, we have the 45:31 apostolic church in Ephesus, it was not long after that, you get 45:34 into the second and third centuries, particularly with the 45:37 persecutions of Domitian, Diocletian, maybe Desean, I 45:41 might've gotten that one wrong, but you have these periods of 45:43 significant persecution in the second and third centuries where 45:45 the church was really under the thumb of imperial Rome and that, 45:48 I think, is the very prophetic trajectory that's being defined 45:52 here. 45:53 Hey, a period of significant tribulation will come. 45:55 >>JAMES: The ten days is definitely Diocletian, 303 and 45:57 313. 45:58 So, what about the next church? 46:01 Because I think there's a contrast between the two. 46:03 In the next church, in this church, you have people who are, 46:06 you know, afflicted, and they seem poor but they're rich, in 46:09 spiritual experience. 46:12 But I think in the church of Pergamum, it completely switches 46:15 because Pergamum means elevation, the church is being 46:17 elevated from a worldly perspective. 46:19 >>TY: Politically. 46:20 >>JAMES: Yes, economically, they're being given favor 46:23 because Constantine comes on the scene right after 313, right at 46:26 the Diocletian, Constantine comes on the scene, 321, Sunday 46:29 law passed, the church becomes the main center and focus, 46:32 paganism, pagans come into the church by the thousands and all 46:35 of a sudden, the church is elevated in the world. 46:38 It becomes rich in worldly wealth, in worldly status. 46:41 >>TY: And the Pergamum church, the third church, is 46:44 acknowledged to be in a position in the world where verse 13, 46:52 where Satan's throne is. 46:54 Now, that's interesting language. 46:56 So, this isn't talking about a literal ornate chair somewhere 47:01 that the devil, in physical form, is sitting on. 47:03 This is essentially telling us that there is a way in which 47:08 religion, and in this particular context, Christianity, which is 47:12 becoming elevated politically, there is a sense in which 47:15 religion can be the throne of Satan. 47:18 Satan is actually working through and in religion, even in 47:26 Christianity in different times in history. 47:28 >>JAMES: Well, look at this contrast, okay? 47:30 In the previous church, church of Smyrna, notice how he points 47:34 out here in verse 10, for you know these things which thou 47:37 shall suffer, behold, the devil, that's Satan, shall cast some of 47:40 you into prison. 47:41 Then, you go to the next church, and that church is rich in 47:43 spiritual things, but poor, then, you go to the next church 47:46 and what happens? 47:47 Satan's throne is now in the church. 47:49 And the church, as an evidence of that... 47:51 >>JEFFREY: He couldn't beat them, so he joined them. 47:53 >>JAMES: And evidence of that is economic prosperity, political 47:56 prosperity. 47:58 >>TY: So, why are we, as quote unquote Christians, up in arms 48:03 when people who quote unquote aren't Christians, unbelievers, 48:06 level their criticism against historical Christianity? 48:10 Shouldn't we be nodding our heads and saying amen? 48:13 Shouldn't we be saying, listen, if you're looking at the 48:18 horrible dastardly deeds of Christianity in history, we're 48:22 not gonna defend that. 48:24 That was Satanic in the name of Christ, that was satanic under 48:29 the guise of Christianity. 48:30 We should be aligning ourselves, I told somebody recently, came 48:34 right out of my mouth, I had to explain, but I said, listen, 48:37 according to what some people have represented Christ to be 48:39 down through history and according to what some people 48:42 believe about God, God himself was an atheist. 48:45 God himself doesn't believe in the god that has been forced on 48:49 the world. 48:50 We should be affirming unbelief where unbelief is totally 48:54 legitimate. 48:56 >>DAVID: And admirable. 48:57 >>JAMES: And that's verse 13, I know thy works and where thou 48:59 dwellest, even where Satan's seat is, and thou holdest fast 49:03 my name, my character. 49:04 In other words, Satan's come in, but you're not denying my 49:06 character. 49:07 Satan's coming into the church and the church is 49:10 misrepresenting the character of God, but you're not. 49:12 >>TY: Is that still Pergamum? 49:13 >>JAMES: That's still Pergamum. 49:15 >>TY: Alright, yeah. 49:16 >>JAMES: That's verse 13, right when it's happening, in other 49:18 words, it seems as though the key thing to do, in the context 49:22 of compromise with Christianity in the world is to hold fast to 49:26 God's character and to keep revealing God's character and I 49:29 would say it this way, that is a theme that's going to take us 49:31 all the way through the book of Revelation, that we would hold 49:34 onto God's character and not compromise it politically or 49:36 economically. 49:38 >>DAVID: You threw those dates out real quick, James, but maybe 49:39 for our viewers who are not as familiar with church history, we 49:42 should say that probably, apart from the resurrection of Jesus, 49:46 which is the singular most significant even to happen in 49:48 church history, of course, without the resurrection, there 49:51 is no church. 49:51 >>JEFFREY: Human history. 49:53 >>DAVID: The conversion of Constantine at the beginning, 49:55 right at the begging of the 4th century, AD 312 is probably the 50:00 single most significant post-resurrection event to 50:02 happen in church history. 50:04 >>TY: Absolutely. 50:05 >>DAVID: 'Cause you go from the pre-Constantine world, where 50:08 it's a persecuted, political minority, it's not even a 50:11 political factor at all and all of a sudden, you are this grand, 50:16 big political empire or part of the political empire and now 50:21 there's political ambition and there's wealth ambition and we 50:25 live in the post-Constantinian world, that's the world we live 50:28 in, and so, I love what you say there, Ty, when I have a lot of 50:32 people say to me, I'm not really up on church, I don't like 50:35 church. 50:36 I know what they're saying, they're saying, I know about 50:38 history, I know what churches have done, I know the way 50:40 churches can be, and you know what, my resonance with that is 50:43 deep. 50:44 I say, me neither. 50:45 'Cause what they mean by church is not your humble, local little 50:49 happy Seventh Adventist or Baptist or Pentecostal church 50:51 where everybody loves one another and things are great. 50:53 When they're thinking, I'm down on church, much of what they're 50:55 thinking is, I know what the church has done, and I don't 50:58 want any part of it. 50:59 The good news is, Jesus doesn't wanna be part of it. 51:02 >>JEFFREY: Exactly, and I even feel like the fact that, of the 51:05 dirty laundry of church history, I think that doesn't discredit 51:08 the church in principle. 51:10 I think that that just supports it, because we would say, as 51:13 bible students and as prophecy students, we're not surprised, 51:16 this is not something that came out of left field, it was 51:19 predicted that it would happen. 51:20 >>TY: We're gonna run out of time in about less than 5 51:22 minutes, so what about church number four because there's a 51:24 natural segue from what James was describing as Pergamum into 51:30 Thyatira, what's going on there? 51:32 >>JAMES: Well, it gets even worse because now, we've not 51:34 only transitioned from the world persecuting the church to the 51:36 world coming into the church, but now we've got the world, I 51:39 mean the church itself persecuting the faithful. 51:41 And Thyatira gives reference to Jezebel, that false prophetess, 51:46 the reason why that reference is made is because the history of 51:49 Ahab and Jezebel who were followers of God, followers of 51:52 the Lord, but false worshippers persecuting God's prophets, 51:56 persecuting God's people, persecuting Elisha. 51:59 >>DAVID: It's in house now. 52:01 >>JAMES: Yeah, it's in house now. 52:02 >>DAVID: It's not Romans external, it's in house. 52:03 >>TY: My bible actually has the heading there in chapter 2, 52:06 verses 18 and onward for the Thyatira church, my heading is 52:10 the corrupt church. 52:13 It's completely given over to the people, it's the instrument 52:16 of the devil in the world, but it's call Christianity. 52:19 >>JEFFREY: And the previous church was the compromising 52:21 church, so at that stage, it's just flirting with it, and then, 52:22 by the time you get down there, to Thyatira, now it's become the 52:26 personification of it. 52:28 >>TY: And then, after the corrupt period, which is the 52:30 fourth church, we go into the fifth church, which begins in 52:33 chapter 3 verse 1, what's going on here? 52:37 What is this period? 52:38 What's going on? 52:40 >>JAMES: Well, the last promise in the context of Thyatira was 52:42 to him that overcomes, I'm gonna give the morning star and John 52:46 Wycliffe was considered the morning star of the reformation. 52:49 It's kind of leading us into this movement that is pulling 52:54 some light out of the darkness. 52:56 You've got Luther, you've got Wycliffe, you've got other 52:58 reformers that come in and start bringing light and truth back to 53:02 God's people. 53:04 >>DAVID: Back into a church that was filled with darkness. 53:05 So, we should say, for our viewer, that AD 331, that's when 53:09 Wycliffe is born. 53:10 So, now we're getting into what's called the protestant 53:12 period. 53:13 >>JAMES: AD what? 53:14 >>DAVID: 1331, I'm sorry. 53:17 1331. 53:18 So, you have a period there where there's a reformation out, 53:22 a reforming of that original apostolic, an embryo. 53:26 >>JEFFREY: It begins, the starts. 53:28 >>DAVID: That little star there. 53:30 >>JEFFREY: A spark. 53:31 >>DAVID: That's the prophetic picture that you talked about, I 53:33 think, for us personally, you know, we cannot divorce 53:35 ourselves from the fact that religion can go bad. 53:40 Religion is perishable. 53:42 It's like food that's perishable. 53:43 It can go bad and not just historically, and not just with 53:47 some other church, with us. 53:49 >>JAMES: Now, another thing here that I think is important is the 53:52 message to Sardis is that I have not found your works perfect and 53:56 what I like about this is, God is moving his people on, on, on, 54:01 don't stop there, don't stop with Luther, don't stop with 54:03 Wycliffe, don't stop with Wesley, keep moving, keep 54:05 moving, keep moving, because I've got a destiny for you and I 54:09 think that destiny is the next church, is Philadelphia, the 54:12 church of brotherly love. 54:13 >>TY: Yeah, Philadelphia actually means brotherly love 54:16 and now, we're seeing, historically, the fruit of the 54:20 protestant reformation in a church, the second of the two 54:25 churches among the seven that has no criticism, no rebuke from 54:31 Jesus. 54:32 He essentially says, what's going on with this church is 54:35 powerful and beautiful and I have no correction to offer at 54:38 all. 54:39 >>JAMES: And then we go over the top of Laodicea, because 54:41 Laodicea takes us right back into this comfortable, ease, 54:45 loving, you know, I'm rich increases goods in need of 54:47 nothing type of, and it's all going back to relationship with 54:50 Christ, the first church started with the relationship with 54:52 Christ, the last church ends with a relationship with Christ. 54:55 Christ is on the outside, knocking. 54:57 I wanna get in, I wanna get in, I wanna get in. 54:59 >>TY: That's in the Laodicean period, yeah. 55:01 I think we're in the Laodicean period historically. 55:03 Let's hope we're not in the Laodicean condition personally, 55:06 you know what I mean? 55:08 >>DAVID: I love the idea that the churches never give you the 55:11 chance to feel at peace in the sense that like, oh, we've 55:14 arrived. 55:15 It's always, what, hey, what, and we can work on that, and we 55:19 can work on that, but I love what you said, Ty, there at the 55:21 outset, it's always in the context of love and of hope and 55:24 of promise. 55:26 >>TY: When Jesus comes to that final church, the Laodicean 55:28 church, I think it's incredible and we didn't mention a lot of 55:32 promises, but the promise to the Laodicean church is hey, if you 55:37 overcome your apathetic, ridiculously terrible religious 55:42 condition, if you overcome this, you're going to be enthroned 55:48 with me for all eternity. 55:50 I'm gonna give you a seat at the table, governing and running the 55:55 universe with me if you overcome it, and that is a very good note 56:00 to close on. 56:01 [Music] 56:04 to close on. 56:04 [Music] |
Revised 2018-01-15