[Music] 00:00:00.26\00:00:10.27 [Music] 00:00:10.27\00:00:21.35 >>TY: Well, we've begun our study in Revelation in our first 00:00:21.35\00:00:24.29 session by looking at some of the features and patterns of the 00:00:24.29\00:00:26.76 book. 00:00:26.76\00:00:27.86 We'll do a little bit more of that as we get into this 00:00:27.86\00:00:30.13 session, but I wanna begin with another throwaway question so 00:00:30.13\00:00:33.23 that we can just learn a little bit about you guys. 00:00:33.23\00:00:36.60 If you had to choose right now, David. 00:00:36.60\00:00:38.93 James, right now, if you had to choose right now to forfeit 00:00:38.93\00:00:43.34 hearing or sight, and we wanna be sensitive about this, we 00:00:43.34\00:00:47.94 wanna be sensitive because there are people who actually... 00:00:47.94\00:00:51.11 >>DAVID: Of course. 00:00:51.11\00:00:52.21 >>TY: ...by no choice of their own, don't have sight or 00:00:52.21\00:00:54.18 hearing, this is not a light matter. 00:00:54.18\00:00:56.12 But there's a point to this. 00:00:56.12\00:00:58.02 If you had to choose one or the other, which would you retain? 00:00:58.02\00:01:01.76 >>JAMES: Well, I'm losing my hearing anyway, so, I guess 00:01:01.76\00:01:04.59 sight. 00:01:04.59\00:01:05.76 >>JEFFREY: Sight. 00:01:05.76\00:01:06.43 >>DAVID: Sight. 00:01:06.43\00:01:07.03 >>TY: Sight? 00:01:07.03\00:01:07.60 Really, all of you, sight? 00:01:07.60\00:01:08.63 Retain hearing. 00:01:08.63\00:01:09.43 >>DAVID: No hesitation. 00:01:09.43\00:01:10.67 >>TY: Me, too, but I've asked that question to other people 00:01:10.67\00:01:13.54 and everybody says, hearing, I'd rather retain sight. 00:01:13.54\00:01:17.51 >>JEFFREY: No, no, no, that's what I meant, I'd rather retain 00:01:17.51\00:01:19.64 sight. 00:01:19.64\00:01:20.48 >>TY: Oh, you'd rather retain sight. 00:01:20.48\00:01:21.84 >>JEFFREY: That's what we all meant. 00:01:21.84\00:01:23.45 >>JAMES: I'm losing my hearing anyway. 00:01:23.45\00:01:25.95 >>TY: Okay, so the opposite. 00:01:25.95\00:01:26.61 I would rather retain hearing. 00:01:26.61\00:01:29.72 >>DAVID: You would? 00:01:29.72\00:01:30.89 >>TY: Yeah, because think about it, think about this for a 00:01:30.89\00:01:32.02 minute. 00:01:32.02\00:01:33.22 If you just close your eyes, everything that we're doing here 00:01:33.22\00:01:37.29 would continue. 00:01:37.29\00:01:41.00 We'd be having this conversation, information would 00:01:41.00\00:01:43.97 be coming in, processing, right? 00:01:43.97\00:01:49.50 But if you couldn't hear, suddenly, there would be a major 00:01:49.50\00:01:56.01 problem with information processing. 00:01:56.01\00:01:59.25 I mean, you could get around it, you'd deal with it, you'd deal 00:01:59.25\00:02:01.52 with it, what's that? 00:02:01.52\00:02:02.42 >>JAMES: I can read your lips. 00:02:02.42\00:02:03.55 >>TY: You could, you would master that. 00:02:03.55\00:02:06.79 The book of Revelation has both sights and sounds. 00:02:06.79\00:02:12.66 The book of Revelation, over and over again, says, I saw, and 00:02:12.66\00:02:15.93 over and over again, it says, I heard, over and over again. 00:02:15.93\00:02:20.44 When we look at the first prophecy in the book of 00:02:20.44\00:02:23.54 Revelation, the seven churches, over and over again, for every 00:02:23.54\00:02:28.14 one of the churches, there is this repeated refrain. 00:02:28.14\00:02:32.85 >>JAMES: The Spirit says. 00:02:32.85\00:02:34.78 >>TY: Yeah. 00:02:34.78\00:02:35.78 >>JAMES: Him that hears. 00:02:35.78\00:02:36.82 >>TY: Yeah, listen to what the Spirit is saying. 00:02:36.82\00:02:39.59 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the 00:02:39.59\00:02:43.76 churches. 00:02:43.76\00:02:44.99 The seven churches prophecy in Revelation is a prophecy that 00:02:44.99\00:02:50.93 has both a local historical application to the people of the 00:02:50.93\00:02:54.94 time that John is writing to, but it also has a universal, 00:02:54.94\00:02:58.47 prophetic application and I think it'd be great to just 00:02:58.47\00:03:03.24 flesh out both of them. 00:03:03.24\00:03:05.28 But before jumping right into that, what about the book of 00:03:05.28\00:03:09.22 Revelation as a whole? 00:03:09.22\00:03:11.19 There are different ways to approach the book of Revelation, 00:03:11.19\00:03:13.76 there are different interpretive methods. 00:03:13.76\00:03:16.76 What are some of those interpretive methods that are 00:03:16.76\00:03:19.26 popular, that people use? 00:03:19.26\00:03:21.50 I mean, it's a book that has a bunch of symbols and prophecies, 00:03:21.50\00:03:24.03 so you come to the book, you have to have a methodology, a 00:03:24.03\00:03:27.97 consistent method. 00:03:27.97\00:03:29.00 What are some of the methods that people do use? 00:03:29.00\00:03:32.01 >>JEFFREY: I wonder if one of the most popular ones, at least 00:03:32.01\00:03:33.71 today, would be what they call futurism, that is, to take the 00:03:33.71\00:03:36.61 prophecies and to confine them at some mysterious point in the 00:03:36.61\00:03:41.18 future. 00:03:41.18\00:03:42.28 >>DAVID: Right. 00:03:42.28\00:03:43.52 >>TY: So, all of it happens in a short space of time, relatively 00:03:43.52\00:03:46.69 short space of time, but it's all in the future. 00:03:46.69\00:03:48.86 >>JEFFREY: It's all in the future. 00:03:48.86\00:03:49.99 >>TY: That's called futurism. 00:03:49.99\00:03:51.29 >>JAMES: Futurism. 00:03:51.29\00:03:52.26 >>TY: What... 00:03:52.26\00:03:53.46 >>DAVID: And not just the future from out time, but obviously 00:03:53.46\00:03:54.96 from John's time, because John was writing about, 'cause he's 00:03:54.96\00:03:57.03 writing 2,000 years ago from out rime, he's writing about 00:03:57.03\00:03:59.23 something that's well in the future. 00:03:59.23\00:04:01.54 And the proponents of the future system believe that the events 00:04:01.54\00:04:04.11 described here are yet future. 00:04:04.11\00:04:05.91 >>JEFFREY: And some of them are, but... 00:04:05.91\00:04:08.91 >>DAVID: But the idea that all of them are, and I think the 00:04:08.91\00:04:12.08 word you used was confined, that's a good word, that it's 00:04:12.08\00:04:14.68 largely, or almost entirely, for some, you know, future, short, 00:04:14.68\00:04:21.19 relatively short period of time. 00:04:21.19\00:04:22.49 >>JAMES: And that's based on Revelation 4, where John is told 00:04:22.49\00:04:24.86 to come up here and I'll show you all things that must be 00:04:24.86\00:04:27.23 hereafter. 00:04:27.23\00:04:28.36 So, I would say futurists primarily start from chapter 4. 00:04:28.36\00:04:31.63 The churches, they'll allow a little bit of wiggle room, but 00:04:31.63\00:04:33.94 forward and onward, I'll show you things that must be 00:04:33.94\00:04:36.00 hereafter is usually futurism. 00:04:36.00\00:04:37.51 And then, the opposite of that is preterism. 00:04:37.51\00:04:39.67 >>TY: That's a big word, what does that mean? 00:04:39.67\00:04:41.04 >>JAMES: Now, preterism is completely the opposite of 00:04:41.04\00:04:43.08 futurism in that it's, 'cause pre is what comes before, so 00:04:43.08\00:04:48.75 you've got everything being pushed to the past. 00:04:48.75\00:04:51.05 >>TY: Pastism. 00:04:51.05\00:04:51.95 >>JAMES: Usually, hey, that's a new word. 00:04:51.95\00:04:54.99 >>JEFFREY: That's a better word. 00:04:54.99\00:04:55.72 >>TY: Pastism. 00:04:55.72\00:04:56.96 >>JAMES: David, can you give us a little bit of background on 00:04:56.96\00:04:57.53 pastism? 00:04:57.53\00:04:58.33 >>DAVID: I like that, I'll take it. 00:04:58.33\00:04:59.26 >>JAMES: Okay. 00:04:59.26\00:05:00.30 Usually, it's John's time and right in the... 00:05:00.30\00:05:03.77 >>JEFFREY: The Roman empire. 00:05:03.77\00:05:05.10 >>JAMES: Yeah, the Roman emperor, Renera was the 00:05:05.10\00:05:07.74 antichrist, etcetera. 00:05:07.74\00:05:08.84 Right in that period of time, most of, if not all of 00:05:08.84\00:05:10.34 Revelation is passed. 00:05:10.34\00:05:11.87 >>TY: So, one interpretive method is preterism, it all 00:05:11.87\00:05:15.98 happened, all this stuff happened pretty much in the 00:05:15.98\00:05:17.95 past, during the time of John. 00:05:17.95\00:05:20.75 Futurism, it's all gonna happen in a relatively short period of 00:05:20.75\00:05:23.42 time in the future. 00:05:23.42\00:05:25.59 Is there any other method? 00:05:25.59\00:05:29.56 >>DAVID: Where there is a school of thought called idealism that 00:05:29.56\00:05:33.56 is basically the idea that Revelation is not dealing with 00:05:33.56\00:05:36.10 specific times or events or history as such, it's dealing 00:05:36.10\00:05:41.67 with big picture ideas. 00:05:41.67\00:05:43.97 >>JAMES: Principles. 00:05:43.97\00:05:44.94 >>JEFFREY: So, they're symbols of some idea. 00:05:44.94\00:05:46.57 >>DAVID: You got it, the symbols of evil, the symbols of nations, 00:05:46.57\00:05:50.18 etcetera, and that's this idea. 00:05:50.18\00:05:53.55 And there's some truth to that in the sense that these are 00:05:53.55\00:05:55.42 symbols of something, but rather... 00:05:55.42\00:05:58.05 >>JEFFREY: Like, there is a dragon in the text. 00:05:58.05\00:05:59.79 >>DAVID: You got it, rather than there just being a general 00:05:59.79\00:06:01.66 symbol, though, I believe it's symbols of specific nations, not 00:06:01.66\00:06:03.83 just principles in some general sense. 00:06:03.83\00:06:06.83 >>TY: Okay. 00:06:06.83\00:06:08.16 Any other methods? 00:06:08.16\00:06:09.60 >>JAMES: There's a fourth method. 00:06:09.60\00:06:10.70 >>TY: A fourth method. 00:06:10.70\00:06:11.93 >>JAMES: Yeah, there's a fourth method, which we probably, all 00:06:11.93\00:06:13.84 of us here probably think is the best because it's based in the 00:06:13.84\00:06:16.07 text, it's based in the introduction of the book of 00:06:16.07\00:06:19.81 Revelation. 00:06:19.81\00:06:21.01 The introduction of the book of Revelation, there are three 00:06:21.01\00:06:22.78 verses, actually, that I think apply or support this 00:06:22.78\00:06:25.45 interpretation. 00:06:25.45\00:06:26.88 >>TY: What is this interpretation? 00:06:26.88\00:06:28.12 >>JAMES: The interpretation... 00:06:28.12\00:06:29.15 >>TY: Does it have a name? 00:06:29.15\00:06:30.02 >>JAMES: Yeah, it's called historicism. 00:06:30.02\00:06:31.09 >>TY: Historicism. 00:06:31.09\00:06:31.95 Okay. 00:06:31.95\00:06:33.05 >>JAMES: And even though that sounds like it's putting 00:06:33.05\00:06:34.66 everything in the past like history, 'cause history we think 00:06:34.66\00:06:37.09 of history as that which has happened, historicism actually 00:06:37.09\00:06:40.33 allows for the prophecies to be past, present, and future. 00:06:40.33\00:06:45.13 And it really, actually... 00:06:45.13\00:06:47.00 >>DAVID: It was through history. 00:06:47.00\00:06:48.20 >>JAMES: Yeah, and it really actually, it embraces all of the 00:06:48.20\00:06:51.44 other ones that we've talked about, it embraces futurism, it 00:06:51.44\00:06:54.48 embraces preterism, and it embraces idealism, it brings 00:06:54.48\00:06:56.98 them all together. 00:06:56.98\00:06:58.08 >>JEFFREY: So it avoids an overemphasis on one or the 00:06:58.08\00:06:59.51 other. 00:06:59.51\00:07:00.25 >>JAMES: Yes, perfect. 00:07:00.25\00:07:01.48 And the text that it's based on, now, the main text it's based 00:07:01.48\00:07:05.12 on, of course, is gonna be verse 19, but building to verse 19, 00:07:05.12\00:07:07.29 you have two other verses. 00:07:07.29\00:07:09.96 The first one is verse 4 of Revelation, and it reads like 00:07:09.96\00:07:13.56 this. 00:07:13.56\00:07:15.00 John of the seven churches, which are in Asia, grace be unto 00:07:15.00\00:07:17.70 you, and peace from him which is, present tense, which was, 00:07:17.70\00:07:24.17 past tense, and which is to come, and from the seven which 00:07:24.17\00:07:27.51 are before his throne. 00:07:27.51\00:07:28.74 So, the idea here is this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, who 00:07:28.74\00:07:32.31 is God. 00:07:32.31\00:07:33.55 This is the revelation from God, from Jesus, it's a revelation of 00:07:33.55\00:07:36.28 him who is, who was, and is to come. 00:07:36.28\00:07:40.32 Therefore, the revelation itself is gonna be a revelation of 00:07:40.32\00:07:42.72 things which are, which were, and which are to come. 00:07:42.72\00:07:46.46 >>TY: Okay. 00:07:46.46\00:07:47.66 >>JAMES: And you find this in the book of Revelation, for 00:07:47.66\00:07:49.43 example, in this verse, verse 7, it talks about Jesus coming and 00:07:49.43\00:07:53.64 it says, every eye shall see and even those that pierced him. 00:07:53.64\00:07:56.24 Well, by the time John is writing, that's already taken 00:07:56.24\00:07:58.67 place. 00:07:58.67\00:07:59.74 By the time John is writing, Jesus has been pierced. 00:07:59.74\00:08:02.31 He's being shown something right here, reference is being made to 00:08:02.31\00:08:05.31 something right here, we get Revelation 5, you've got the 00:08:05.31\00:08:07.38 lamb that was slain that's in the midst of the throne. 00:08:07.38\00:08:09.38 Well, the lamb that was slain, way before John hit the Isle of 00:08:09.38\00:08:12.35 Patmos. 00:08:12.35\00:08:13.52 You get to Revelation 12, you've got the dragon that was in 00:08:13.52\00:08:15.76 heaven and it deceived a third of the angels, well, that didn't 00:08:15.76\00:08:18.43 happen in John, that happened hundreds of years, thousands of 00:08:18.43\00:08:21.80 years, that happened before creation, or around that time. 00:08:21.80\00:08:23.93 So, a lot of the events that John is shown are, in a sense, a 00:08:23.93\00:08:27.87 setup. 00:08:27.87\00:08:29.07 They're past prophecy, past history that's setting up the 00:08:29.07\00:08:32.44 scenario for his time and for the scenario for the end of 00:08:32.44\00:08:35.38 time. 00:08:35.38\00:08:36.51 >>JEFFREY: The reason I like that approach the best is 00:08:36.51\00:08:38.38 because it presents God as a God who has been involved in the 00:08:38.38\00:08:43.95 affairs of humanity from the beginning and will continue to 00:08:43.95\00:08:47.32 be 'til the end. 00:08:47.32\00:08:48.52 If we just parked in one of these other schools of thought 00:08:48.52\00:08:52.63 or interpretations or methods, we would confine God's activity 00:08:52.63\00:08:56.30 to the past. 00:08:56.30\00:08:57.63 >>TY: Or the future. 00:08:57.63\00:08:58.73 >>JEFFREY: Or the future, right, or the future, right? 00:08:58.73\00:09:00.64 And so, it's almost as if these other approaches deny God's 00:09:00.64\00:09:05.71 activity in the past and deny God's upcoming activity in the 00:09:05.71\00:09:09.81 future whereas historicism argues that, no, God has been 00:09:09.81\00:09:13.78 present and involved through the whole process. 00:09:13.78\00:09:17.05 >>TY: I like that, too, but I think it's more specific, isn't 00:09:17.05\00:09:20.72 it? 00:09:20.72\00:09:21.82 Because the book of Revelation, in verse 19, James, you 00:09:21.82\00:09:26.16 mentioned verse 19, but didn't actually take us there, but in 00:09:26.16\00:09:30.07 verse 19, John is told, specifically by Jesus, write the 00:09:30.07\00:09:35.44 things which you have seen and the things which are and the 00:09:35.44\00:09:40.74 things which shall take place after this. 00:09:40.74\00:09:43.58 So, that verse is pretty explicit. 00:09:43.58\00:09:48.12 Jesus is saying, the things I'm about to unfold to you are about 00:09:48.12\00:09:51.85 things that are presently taking place in your time, John, right 00:09:51.85\00:09:55.99 there, right in your time. 00:09:55.99\00:09:57.93 And the things that I'm gonna be showing you are about things 00:09:57.93\00:10:01.00 which are to take place after this. 00:10:01.00\00:10:03.80 So, what I meant when I said, it's more specific, really, the 00:10:03.80\00:10:08.60 book of Revelation, as we begin to study it, we discover that 00:10:08.60\00:10:12.77 it's dealing with a period of time from the time of John, what 00:10:12.77\00:10:17.95 we might call the apostolic period from first century, the 00:10:17.95\00:10:22.55 time of Christ. 00:10:22.55\00:10:23.92 Straight through, things that will take place after this, 00:10:23.92\00:10:27.82 straight through to the final and full establishment of the 00:10:27.82\00:10:31.86 kingdom of God. 00:10:31.86\00:10:33.96 New heavens, new earth. 00:10:33.96\00:10:35.66 So, that's the swath of time that we're dealing with in the 00:10:35.66\00:10:39.27 book of Revelation, and there's another pattern. 00:10:39.27\00:10:41.74 We've been mentioning patterns and traits and what the pattern 00:10:41.74\00:10:45.54 is that we didn't specifically name in the book of Revelation 00:10:45.54\00:10:50.18 is that over and over again, we see that John is following this 00:10:50.18\00:10:55.32 particular historical trajectory. 00:10:55.32\00:10:57.85 With the seven churches, he begins with the church of 00:10:57.85\00:11:01.09 Ephesus, which, if you look at the characteristics of the 00:11:01.09\00:11:06.13 church, easily are identified as the apostolic period. 00:11:06.13\00:11:10.33 >>DAVID: That is to say the first century church. 00:11:10.33\00:11:12.50 >>TY: The first century church. 00:11:12.50\00:11:13.70 And then, the seven churches prophecy extends all the way to 00:11:13.70\00:11:19.37 the seventh church or to the end time segment of human history, 00:11:19.37\00:11:23.45 the time in which we live. 00:11:23.45\00:11:25.31 But then, it doesn't stop there. 00:11:25.31\00:11:27.32 John then backs up and there's the seven seals prophecy. 00:11:27.32\00:11:30.82 Seven churches, seven seals. 00:11:30.82\00:11:32.85 And that prophecy doesn't pick up with the end time period and 00:11:32.85\00:11:37.63 extend from there and it doesn't... 00:11:37.63\00:11:39.93 >>DAVID: It recapitulates. 00:11:39.93\00:11:40.93 >>JEFFREY: Overlaps. 00:11:40.93\00:11:42.10 >>TY: It recapitulates, it's a repeat and enlarged pattern. 00:11:42.10\00:11:44.30 There's an actual, intentional, literary pattern. 00:11:44.30\00:11:48.54 The seven seals begin with the first century and extend to the 00:11:48.54\00:11:51.67 end. 00:11:51.67\00:11:52.91 Then again, seven trumpets, back up, repeating things that are 00:11:52.91\00:11:57.48 taking place over the same swath of history. 00:11:57.48\00:11:59.91 So, the thing that's brilliant about the historicist method of 00:11:59.91\00:12:05.15 interpretation is it accounts for John's time, it accounts for 00:12:05.15\00:12:11.49 all the history that followed John's time and it accounts for 00:12:11.49\00:12:13.90 the time in which we live and yet future to us, it accounts 00:12:13.90\00:12:16.80 for all of that time. 00:12:16.80\00:12:19.43 So, that's why I think all of us strongly favor the historicist 00:12:19.43\00:12:24.47 method, it speaks very strongly. 00:12:24.47\00:12:28.11 >>JEFFREY: It's as if God wants to, like we've been saying, 00:12:28.11\00:12:31.91 disclose his activity on earth and he kind of makes himself 00:12:31.91\00:12:35.35 almost predictable. 00:12:35.35\00:12:37.35 So, as we look at the way God has acted and intervened in 00:12:37.35\00:12:41.12 history, we can sort of understand what he's up to today 00:12:41.12\00:12:44.59 and what his plans are for tomorrow. 00:12:44.59\00:12:46.66 It's almost like he's making himself... 00:12:46.66\00:12:48.46 >>DAVID: Tell me if you like this, on this note, I don't 00:12:48.46\00:12:51.13 think this idea that God is largely confined either 00:12:51.13\00:12:53.64 primarily to the past or largely, primarily to the 00:12:53.64\00:12:56.57 future, I don't think that's something that is exclusively 00:12:56.57\00:12:58.84 the domain of prophecy, I think that we can fall into a very 00:12:58.84\00:13:01.64 similar trap, so as to say, oh, the manna. 00:13:01.64\00:13:05.55 Oh, the walking on the water, oh, the parting of the Red Sea. 00:13:05.55\00:13:08.78 God has worked, or in the future, when God returns and he 00:13:08.78\00:13:13.72 puts everything to rights, he will work. 00:13:13.72\00:13:16.56 But the tricky part for us, isn't it, is okay, but what's 00:13:16.56\00:13:19.43 God doing today? 00:13:19.43\00:13:20.83 >>JAMES: Good, good point. 00:13:20.83\00:13:22.00 >>DAVID: There's a really cool story of this in the book of 00:13:22.00\00:13:23.97 John, John chapter 11, John also wrote the book of Revelation, 00:13:23.97\00:13:26.74 but in his gospel, he tells this quick story that people might 00:13:26.74\00:13:30.44 remember, and it's the story of the death of one of Jesus's 00:13:30.44\00:13:32.91 friends, a guy named Lazarus, and Jesus hears that Lazarus is 00:13:32.91\00:13:36.61 sick and he purposefully delays and he shows up not in time to 00:13:36.61\00:13:41.95 save Lazarus from death. 00:13:41.95\00:13:43.15 When he arrives, Lazarus has already died and Jesus, Sister 00:13:43.15\00:13:47.02 Martha comes out and sort of questions Jesus's timing and his 00:13:47.02\00:13:51.49 judgment in coming so late and in that interaction, it's 00:13:51.49\00:13:54.93 fascinating. 00:13:54.93\00:13:56.13 She says, Jesus, if you would have been here, he would not 00:13:56.13\00:13:59.87 have died. 00:13:59.87\00:14:00.97 Translation, you could've fixed this in the past. 00:14:00.97\00:14:04.51 Jesus then says to her, your brother will right again. 00:14:04.51\00:14:07.18 To which, she says, I know that he will rise again in the 00:14:07.18\00:14:10.61 resurrection at the last day. 00:14:10.61\00:14:11.95 >>JAMES: Okay. 00:14:11.95\00:14:13.11 >>DAVID: But she's done, with her, she's done what we do 00:14:13.11\00:14:15.52 today. 00:14:15.52\00:14:16.72 God has worked, God will work, but then, what Jesus says is 00:14:16.72\00:14:21.92 fascinating, he gives the present tense of these very 00:14:21.92\00:14:24.56 significant words, hugely pregnant in Old and New 00:14:24.56\00:14:26.76 Testaments, I am the resurrection and the life. 00:14:26.76\00:14:31.03 It's not just that I have worked and not just that I will work, 00:14:31.03\00:14:33.84 but I am working right here, right now, and to me, that's 00:14:33.84\00:14:37.21 always been really helpful to see, that he's not just the God 00:14:37.21\00:14:39.37 of history, preterism, if you will. 00:14:39.37\00:14:41.58 He's not just the God of the future, futurism, prophetically 00:14:41.58\00:14:46.25 speaking, as well as in all aspects of God's interaction 00:14:46.25\00:14:49.72 with human history, he is the God of history. 00:14:49.72\00:14:52.65 He is working, he is moving through history, and in 00:14:52.65\00:14:57.13 Revelation, we should not be surprised, then, that God is 00:14:57.13\00:15:00.20 depicted in Revelation as moving through human history from the 00:15:00.20\00:15:05.37 time of the prophet, in this case, John, through the swath, 00:15:05.37\00:15:09.24 as you say, of human history, down to the climax. 00:15:09.24\00:15:11.34 >>JAMES: You asked the question, tell me if you like this, that's 00:15:11.34\00:15:14.31 what you said before you started, right? 00:15:14.31\00:15:16.31 >>DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:16.31\00:15:17.55 >>JAMES: So, I'm telling you I like it, and the thing I like 00:15:17.55\00:15:19.31 about it, too, is if you read these two verses in Revelation, 00:15:19.31\00:15:21.32 before you get to 19, Revelation 1, verse 4, and then Revelation 00:15:21.32\00:15:24.95 1 verse 8, so 1, verse 4, when it describes God in these three 00:15:24.95\00:15:29.32 dimensions, past, present, and future, it starts with, from him 00:15:29.32\00:15:32.63 which is, from him which is. 00:15:32.63\00:15:35.26 >>DAVID: Yeah, it starts with a present tense. 00:15:35.26\00:15:37.27 >>JAMES: That's the emphasis. 00:15:37.27\00:15:38.27 >>DAVID: I am. 00:15:38.27\00:15:39.50 >>JAMES: Yeah, and then you look in Revelation chapter 1, verse 00:15:39.50\00:15:41.27 8, I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, says the 00:15:41.27\00:15:43.30 Lord, which is. 00:15:43.30\00:15:44.77 >>DAVID: Who is and then was and yeah. 00:15:44.77\00:15:47.41 >>JAMES: Which he is. 00:15:47.41\00:15:48.41 >>DAVID: I love that. 00:15:48.41\00:15:49.64 Well, Moses is standing at the burning bush, who shall I say 00:15:49.64\00:15:51.41 sent me? 00:15:51.41\00:15:52.41 I am. 00:15:52.41\00:15:53.42 I am that I am. 00:15:53.42\00:15:54.42 Present tense of the verb to be. 00:15:54.42\00:15:56.42 So, God is not only active in the past, he's not only going to 00:15:56.42\00:15:58.42 be active in the future, but God is alive, he's not an idea, he's 00:15:58.42\00:16:00.96 not a philosophy, he's not a concept, he's alive. 00:16:00.96\00:16:03.53 >>JAMES: And that makes such a huge difference to John because 00:16:03.53\00:16:06.39 he's on the Isle of Patmos. 00:16:06.39\00:16:07.60 He's basically in Alcatraz, he's basically been abandoned and 00:16:07.60\00:16:11.47 there comes Jesus right now, right there in the present. 00:16:11.47\00:16:16.04 >>TY: But isn't it true, though, that, I think that sounds like a 00:16:16.04\00:16:22.64 really good idea, it appeals to my intellect, but is that real? 00:16:22.64\00:16:29.92 Is that happening? 00:16:29.92\00:16:31.12 >>JAMES: You lost me there, is what happening? 00:16:31.12\00:16:33.39 >>TY: You're saying that it's not just that God is acting in 00:16:33.39\00:16:36.42 the past, mentioning things like the Red Sea, we might mention, 00:16:36.42\00:16:40.16 you know, Peter walking on water, I think you mentioned 00:16:40.16\00:16:42.73 Lazarus raised from the dead. 00:16:42.73\00:16:44.77 The future, we know that crazy, wonderful things are gonna take 00:16:44.77\00:16:47.77 place. 00:16:47.77\00:16:48.97 But right now, I think, some people, I had somebody say to me 00:16:48.97\00:16:53.91 not long ago, there's no proof that your Christian view is true 00:16:53.91\00:17:00.42 right this moment. 00:17:00.42\00:17:02.08 You can point to things written in a book that happened in the 00:17:02.08\00:17:05.25 past, you can point to things that you say are gonna happen in 00:17:05.25\00:17:08.06 the future, but none of the stuff that the record of your 00:17:08.06\00:17:12.16 Holy Book says happened in the past are happening right now. 00:17:12.16\00:17:15.30 So, it sounds kina, it sounds like fiction. 00:17:15.30\00:17:18.87 >>JEFFREY: I think that's why it's important to understand 00:17:18.87\00:17:20.94 what God has done in the past. 00:17:20.94\00:17:22.54 An individual would not even know what to look for. 00:17:22.54\00:17:24.64 Like, what do you look for? 00:17:24.64\00:17:26.61 When somebody poses that question, yah, but what is God 00:17:26.61\00:17:28.84 doing now? 00:17:28.84\00:17:29.84 Where is God? 00:17:29.84\00:17:30.85 I haven't seen him working. 00:17:30.85\00:17:32.95 You would ask, well, what are you looking for? 00:17:32.95\00:17:34.95 Like, are you looking for God walking down the street in the 00:17:34.95\00:17:38.12 corner, crossing, what are you looking for? 00:17:38.12\00:17:40.12 So, how do we know what we're looking for? 00:17:40.12\00:17:42.12 >>TY: That's a great way to say it. 00:17:42.12\00:17:44.13 >>JEFFREY: The way that we know what we're looking for is by 00:17:44.13\00:17:46.13 understanding God being identified dint he past and that 00:17:46.13\00:17:48.80 gives us the clue on what God is doing in the present, I think 00:17:48.80\00:17:52.40 that's why the past is so critical. 00:17:52.40\00:17:54.44 >>TY: Yeah. 00:17:54.44\00:17:55.67 >>DAVID: And something I wanna add to that, I cited miraculous 00:17:55.67\00:17:57.57 things from the past and miraculous things that happen in 00:17:57.57\00:17:59.87 the future, but God works in ways that can be quite normal. 00:17:59.87\00:18:03.81 I mean, he does that. 00:18:03.81\00:18:05.28 WE see, for example, Jesus comes down to earth, he's a human, 00:18:05.28\00:18:08.08 he's just walking around, he's talking to people, he's having a 00:18:08.08\00:18:10.55 conversation with the woman at the well, he's having dinner at 00:18:10.55\00:18:12.59 Zacchaeus's house. 00:18:12.59\00:18:13.52 Not everything that God does is fantastical. 00:18:13.52\00:18:15.59 He's not a magician, he's not pulling rabbits out of the hat. 00:18:15.59\00:18:17.59 Hey, look at this card trick. 00:18:17.59\00:18:19.73 And too often, I think, when we're looking, and I love your 00:18:19.73\00:18:22.20 point there, Jeffrey, when we're looking for what God is doing, 00:18:22.20\00:18:24.67 we're looking for the fantastical, for the 00:18:24.67\00:18:26.67 sensational, for the amazing, and God does do that, 00:18:26.67\00:18:29.60 incidentally, God can work in really powerful, miraculous 00:18:29.60\00:18:33.17 ways, even in the present tense. 00:18:33.17\00:18:35.18 But a lot of the ways that God works is like a sunset, the 00:18:35.18\00:18:38.11 birth of your first child, a beautiful symphony, you're like, 00:18:38.11\00:18:41.68 man, God is alive. 00:18:41.68\00:18:42.92 >>TY: Well, one of the ways, one of the ways, the reason I really 00:18:42.92\00:18:45.89 was feeling the weight of that question, when somebody brought 00:18:45.89\00:18:51.59 it to me, is because, for me, actually, and I don't know why 00:18:51.59\00:18:55.13 this is, I'm not as impressed when I read about the miracles 00:18:55.13\00:18:59.37 in the bible or hear about the miracles of the past. 00:18:59.37\00:19:02.14 What I think is incredible, and you happened to mention one of 00:19:02.14\00:19:04.77 them, is the conversation that Jesus had with the woman at the 00:19:04.77\00:19:07.48 well. 00:19:07.48\00:19:08.68 Or the interaction that Jesus had with Nichodemus and the 00:19:08.68\00:19:12.45 information, the light, the perspective that emerged that is 00:19:12.45\00:19:17.52 of far more significance than... 00:19:17.52\00:19:21.59 >>DAVID: Pulling a rabbit out of a hat. 00:19:21.59\00:19:22.56 >>TY: Pulling a rabbit out of a hat. 00:19:22.56\00:19:23.63 Doing a miracle. 00:19:23.63\00:19:24.86 Not that miracles aren't, you know, incredible and amazing, 00:19:24.86\00:19:27.76 but the seven churches? 00:19:27.76\00:19:29.53 >>DAVID: Pastoral. 00:19:29.53\00:19:31.20 >>TY: This is pastoral. 00:19:31.20\00:19:32.43 This is Jesus interacting with us on the level of our thoughts 00:19:32.43\00:19:36.64 and our feelings and our moral existence. 00:19:36.64\00:19:41.04 He's saying these are the things that are wrong with the way 00:19:41.04\00:19:44.65 you're relating to me and others, and these are the things 00:19:44.65\00:19:47.95 that need to be corrected. 00:19:47.95\00:19:49.15 These are the good things, I'm gonna affirm the good things 00:19:49.15\00:19:52.42 that are happening and these are the kinds of things that I would 00:19:52.42\00:19:56.89 like to see happen and I promise you, if you follow through with 00:19:56.89\00:20:00.06 this, there's gonna be incredible things that are 00:20:00.06\00:20:02.50 coming your way. 00:20:02.50\00:20:03.50 That's all pastoral. 00:20:03.50\00:20:04.83 There are no miracles. 00:20:04.83\00:20:06.37 It's, and for me, the best experiences I've ever had, quote 00:20:06.37\00:20:11.81 unquote, with God... 00:20:11.81\00:20:12.97 >>DAVID: Were not miraculous in nature. 00:20:12.97\00:20:14.98 >>TY: No. 00:20:14.98\00:20:15.98 They were me realizing something. 00:20:15.98\00:20:18.61 >>JEFFREY: 100%. 00:20:18.61\00:20:19.61 >>TY: Realizing something. 00:20:19.61\00:20:20.65 >>JEFFREY: Same here. 00:20:20.65\00:20:21.88 >>TY: Realizing our relationship has a quality to it that I need 00:20:21.88\00:20:25.99 to nurture. 00:20:25.99\00:20:27.86 Realizing that somebody to my left or to my right is falling 00:20:27.86\00:20:31.06 apart at the seams and I feel prompted to speak words that 00:20:31.06\00:20:36.50 will lift them out of that darkness, hopefully. 00:20:36.50\00:20:39.67 Realizing, yeah, realizing an insider perspective that opens 00:20:39.67\00:20:45.77 God's character to me more clearly so I think, wow, God is 00:20:45.77\00:20:50.48 more beautiful than I've ever imagined and there's the 00:20:50.48\00:20:53.11 testimony, or what the bible calls the witness in my spirit 00:20:53.11\00:20:56.82 that God is. 00:20:56.82\00:20:57.85 It's there. 00:20:57.85\00:20:59.09 I know, someone can say, I can prove to you scientifically God 00:20:59.09\00:21:03.29 doesn't exist, and I would immediately turn back and say, I 00:21:03.29\00:21:07.23 can't prove to you that he does, but I know that he does. 00:21:07.23\00:21:10.87 You hear the difference? 00:21:10.87\00:21:12.53 I can't prove to you that God exists, but I can tell you I 00:21:12.53\00:21:16.47 personally know God exists because of the things I see in 00:21:16.47\00:21:19.47 my mind. 00:21:19.47\00:21:20.64 >>JAMES: You know, Ty, you're right on track with this. 00:21:20.64\00:21:22.28 >>DAVID: And the experiences that you've had with him. 00:21:22.28\00:21:23.31 >>TY: Yeah. 00:21:23.31\00:21:24.55 >>JAMES: And what's amazing to me is that the seven churches 00:21:24.55\00:21:26.18 specifically perfectly line up with the illustrations you've 00:21:26.18\00:21:29.85 given us. 00:21:29.85\00:21:30.95 Especially the illustration of the woman at the well. 00:21:30.95\00:21:32.45 Because when you look at the woman at the well, you're 00:21:32.45\00:21:34.52 looking at a woman who is broken. 00:21:34.52\00:21:36.42 You're looking at a woman who is coming to the well at a time of 00:21:36.42\00:21:37.79 day when no one else is gonna be there, for a specific reason, 00:21:37.79\00:21:40.76 that Jesus actually fleshes out, she's had 5 husbands and the guy 00:21:40.76\00:21:43.63 she's living with right now isn't even her husband. 00:21:43.63\00:21:46.40 She doesn't wanna be seen, she doesn't wanna be known, she 00:21:46.40\00:21:48.47 doesn't wanna be identified by any of the townspeople and here 00:21:48.47\00:21:51.74 comes Messiah and he's coming to the place where she is. 00:21:51.74\00:21:55.98 He knows her brokenness, he knows her history, he knows 00:21:55.98\00:21:58.61 everything about her and he loves her and not only so, but 00:21:58.61\00:22:01.68 the way he comes across to her causes her to get so excited 00:22:01.68\00:22:04.69 about all the bad things she ever did that she's willing to 00:22:04.69\00:22:06.82 run into town and tell everyone that this is the Messiah based 00:22:06.82\00:22:09.59 upon the fact that my terrible history that he just revealed to 00:22:09.59\00:22:12.39 me, that's the picture of the seven churches. 00:22:12.39\00:22:14.83 >>DAVID: I guess the only, anyway, I didn't wanna cut you 00:22:14.83\00:22:18.00 off there. 00:22:18.00\00:22:19.07 >>JAMES: This is the picture of the seven churches. 00:22:19.07\00:22:20.30 The seven churches is a picture of these churches that have all 00:22:20.30\00:22:22.37 of these different issues, this history, these weaknesses, 00:22:22.37\00:22:25.44 theses faults. 00:22:25.44\00:22:26.68 The last church is so bad that God just wants to make, God just 00:22:26.68\00:22:29.61 wants to throw up. 00:22:29.61\00:22:30.65 You just make me sick, I just feel like puking. 00:22:30.65\00:22:33.28 >>TY: But I love you and here's some promises. 00:22:33.28\00:22:35.68 [Laughter] 00:22:35.68\00:22:36.79 >>JAMES: And yet, Jesus is coming and he's revealing 00:22:36.79\00:22:42.12 himself before he even gives, he's in the midst of the 00:22:42.12\00:22:44.26 churches. 00:22:44.26\00:22:45.23 Not just two of them, but all seven of them. 00:22:45.23\00:22:46.80 And so, you see Christ in the midst of the churches, just like 00:22:46.80\00:22:48.73 you saw him going to the Samaritan woman. 00:22:48.73\00:22:50.53 Just like you see him going to Nichodemus, that self-righteous 00:22:50.53\00:22:53.23 legalist. 00:22:53.23\00:22:54.40 Just like you see him hanging out with the disciples and 00:22:54.40\00:22:55.84 leading them after they denied him, leading them forth to 00:22:55.84\00:22:58.34 Galilee. 00:22:58.34\00:22:59.51 Just a picture, the relational picture is what the book, 00:22:59.51\00:23:02.61 Revelation's not just prophecy, it's this relational picture. 00:23:02.61\00:23:06.48 >>DAVID: It's a home and a prophecy and a pastoral letter. 00:23:06.48\00:23:09.42 You go ahead first. 00:23:09.42\00:23:10.92 >>TY: No, we have to take a break. 00:23:10.92\00:23:12.29 You say... 00:23:12.29\00:23:13.52 >>DAVID: Very, very quickly, I love your point there about the 00:23:13.52\00:23:15.36 woman at the well, how he comes and he's with her and in each 00:23:15.36\00:23:18.63 church, each of the seven churches, Jesus says, I know. 00:23:18.63\00:23:23.13 I know. 00:23:23.13\00:23:25.30 I know. 00:23:25.30\00:23:26.27 I know, I know, I know. 00:23:26.27\00:23:28.40 And the love of God is greater than his knowledge of our, not 00:23:28.40\00:23:34.64 that it's greater, but the knowledge of our weaknesses, our 00:23:34.64\00:23:36.51 failures, our faults and foils, God's like, hey, I know about 00:23:36.51\00:23:38.68 that. 00:23:38.68\00:23:39.41 >>JAMES: It's swallowed up. 00:23:39.41\00:23:40.58 >>DAVID: And you've had 7 husbands, I know about that, and 00:23:40.58\00:23:41.82 I know, and at the end of the day, you've got this text here, 00:23:41.82\00:23:44.02 right at the outset, verse 5, back to Revelation 1 verse 5, to 00:23:44.02\00:23:48.76 him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood. 00:23:48.76\00:23:52.39 And I'd love to make a point here about the order there, the 00:23:52.39\00:23:54.96 chronology. 00:23:54.96\00:23:56.20 It's who loved and washed, but we often think about God in the 00:23:56.20\00:24:00.04 reverse of that. 00:24:00.04\00:24:01.27 Man, I hope I can get cleaned up so that I can be worthy of God's 00:24:01.27\00:24:04.04 love and his affection. 00:24:04.04\00:24:06.14 But now, who loved us, I know, yeah, I know, yeah, I know. 00:24:06.14\00:24:11.18 I love you now let's, let's. 00:24:11.18\00:24:12.95 >>JAMES: Clean it up. 00:24:12.95\00:24:15.12 >>DAVID: Let's clean that up. 00:24:15.12\00:24:16.35 >>TY: So, let's take a break on that note, that's just, that's 00:24:16.35\00:24:18.19 the gospel right there. 00:24:18.19\00:24:19.92 >>JAMES: Amen. 00:24:19.92\00:24:21.72 [Music] 00:24:21.72\00:24:32.13 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 00:24:32.13\00:24:35.34 Well, you're certainly invited. 00:24:35.34\00:24:36.71 Visit our website at lightbearers.org. 00:24:36.71\00:24:39.21 In fact, you may wanna make it your homepage because we're 00:24:39.21\00:24:43.71 always adding something new to strengthen your relationship 00:24:43.71\00:24:46.25 with Jesus. 00:24:46.25\00:24:47.62 At lightbearers.org, you'll find thought-provoking blogs and 00:24:47.62\00:24:51.19 verse-by-verse bible studies on a variety of vital topics. 00:24:51.19\00:24:55.22 Our online resource center has an excellent lineup of books, 00:24:55.22\00:25:00.33 CDs, and DVDs that present God's 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of the seven churches. 00:26:40.56\00:26:41.96 Now, we've mentioned that there's a historic scope. 00:26:41.96\00:26:45.63 We've pointed out that the seven church extend from the apostolic 00:26:45.63\00:26:49.84 period, first century, straight through to the end, to the end 00:26:49.84\00:26:53.24 of the world, to what is sometimes called the end time or 00:26:53.24\00:26:55.78 the eschaton. 00:26:55.78\00:26:56.95 So, that's the period covered, but the deep stuff that we 00:26:56.95\00:27:02.88 really want to bring to the surface is the pastoral stuff 00:27:02.88\00:27:08.59 that's going on. 00:27:08.59\00:27:09.59 >>JAMES: The content. 00:27:09.59\00:27:10.59 >>TY: Yeah. 00:27:10.59\00:27:11.69 John is pastor, poet, and prophet, we've mentioned. 00:27:11.69\00:27:15.66 Here we see that John is the channel for the pastoral 00:27:15.66\00:27:19.83 ministry of Jesus himself. 00:27:19.83\00:27:21.84 Jesus is the one who is said to be in the midst of the seven 00:27:21.84\00:27:28.44 candlesticks, which are symbolic for the seven churches, he's 00:27:28.44\00:27:32.18 there. 00:27:32.18\00:27:33.18 >>DAVID: And that's sanctuary language. 00:27:33.18\00:27:35.18 >>TY: That's sanctuary language from the Old Testament. 00:27:35.18\00:27:37.19 >>JEFFREY: That's verse 20. 00:27:37.19\00:27:38.15 >>TY: Yeah, so let's just jump right into it. 00:27:38.15\00:27:40.72 The seven churches prophecy basically is chapters 2 and 3. 00:27:40.72\00:27:44.26 >>JAMES: Well I love what you just said, Ty, and it was like 00:27:44.26\00:27:46.90 you were making an astounding statement, but I think it's an 00:27:46.90\00:27:50.37 instructive statement, I think that the book of Revelations is 00:27:50.37\00:27:53.57 very instructive for us today, and you said that John is, I 00:27:53.57\00:27:57.57 can't give all the emphasis that you gave, John is actually the 00:27:57.57\00:28:01.31 instrument for the pastoral ministry of Jesus. 00:28:01.31\00:28:04.31 >>TY: Yes. 00:28:04.31\00:28:05.31 >>JAMES: I thought, well, yeah, so are we. 00:28:05.31\00:28:07.32 I mean, that is what we are, right? 00:28:07.32\00:28:09.32 Jesus, we are the body of Christ. 00:28:09.32\00:28:11.32 And Jesus is the head and we are to be the pastoral ministry for 00:28:11.32\00:28:13.32 Jesus. 00:28:13.32\00:28:14.52 I really like that because the book of Revelation is giving 00:28:14.52\00:28:16.32 that picture for us so that we can actually take that in and 00:28:16.32\00:28:19.09 say, wow. 00:28:19.09\00:28:20.10 >>JEFFREY: Is that the seven churches? 00:28:20.10\00:28:22.06 The rise and fall of that attempt, of the church trying to 00:28:22.06\00:28:25.77 fill that role through history. 00:28:25.77\00:28:27.24 >>TY: Well, that's a great perspective. 00:28:27.24\00:28:29.24 >>JAMES: Yeah, I wasn't thinking of that. 00:28:29.24\00:28:31.24 You're bringing something else to the table, now, and this 00:28:31.24\00:28:33.24 is... 00:28:33.24\00:28:34.28 >>DAVID: You go ahead, 'cause I was just gonna... 00:28:34.28\00:28:36.24 >>TY: Well, I'll tell you why I think the pastoral element in 00:28:36.24\00:28:38.25 the book of Revelation, and specifically, the churches is so 00:28:38.25\00:28:41.22 important is because it shows the personable dimension of God. 00:28:41.22\00:28:48.69 God's character, God's heart is on display here. 00:28:48.69\00:28:54.56 It's not just a book that is filled with symbols to be 00:28:54.56\00:28:58.23 interpreted and decoded. 00:28:58.23\00:29:00.34 It's a book in which God is leaning in, Jesus is leaning in. 00:29:00.34\00:29:04.91 He's taking people by the hand, by the arm, he's saying, listen, 00:29:04.91\00:29:07.81 listen, listen, I see what you don't, let me explain to you 00:29:07.81\00:29:13.42 where your dangers lie and let me give you some remedies, let 00:29:13.42\00:29:16.95 me tell you how that you can flourish and thrive. 00:29:16.95\00:29:20.29 There's kind, the kind of conversations that we have with 00:29:20.29\00:29:23.06 people we love, that we sit down with people and we say, listen, 00:29:23.06\00:29:26.63 I don't know if you can, this happened to me just last night, 00:29:26.63\00:29:29.46 I had the difficult task of sitting down with a young 00:29:29.46\00:29:33.67 couple, one of which I've known since this person was a child 00:29:33.67\00:29:39.91 and love her dearly and I had to tell them some hard stuff. 00:29:39.91\00:29:44.45 I didn't want to. 00:29:44.45\00:29:45.45 In fact, I tried to talk myself out of it. 00:29:45.45\00:29:48.75 But they set up the appointment. 00:29:48.75\00:29:50.75 And we had to sit down and I said, can you bear what I need 00:29:50.75\00:29:55.89 to tell you? 00:29:55.89\00:29:57.13 And they said, yeah, in fact, we're here because we need you 00:29:57.13\00:30:00.56 to tell us. 00:30:00.56\00:30:01.53 And they were so open to it. 00:30:01.53\00:30:04.03 I think that that's the spirit we need to have with Jesus. 00:30:04.03\00:30:06.33 You wanna tell us some hard stuff, we know we need to hear 00:30:06.33\00:30:09.44 it, but here's the thing, this girl looked into my eyes last 00:30:09.44\00:30:13.88 night and said, the reason why we wanted you is because I've 00:30:13.88\00:30:16.98 known you a long time, there's a friendship there, and she said, 00:30:16.98\00:30:20.85 I knew that you would tell us the hard stuff that we need to 00:30:20.85\00:30:22.98 hear and then she looked straight into my eyes, she said, 00:30:22.98\00:30:25.55 and I've known you for a long time and I know you love me. 00:30:25.55\00:30:28.86 And that's the powerful combination, isn't it? 00:30:28.86\00:30:31.43 >>JAMES: That Christ has. 00:30:31.43\00:30:32.43 >>TY: That you see in Jesus. 00:30:32.43\00:30:33.66 I'm gonna tell you the truth, but I'm the one who's faithful 00:30:33.66\00:30:38.13 and true to you. 00:30:38.13\00:30:39.33 I'm the one who loves you, so I'm not telling you anything 00:30:39.33\00:30:42.74 that will hurt that's not for your best good. 00:30:42.74\00:30:47.48 And I'm not gonna tell you anything that hurts that I don't 00:30:47.48\00:30:49.88 have a remedy for. 00:30:49.88\00:30:51.08 >>JEFFREY: And by the way, I know we're about to jump in the 00:30:51.08\00:30:53.08 first church, but I love the fact that he begins with 00:30:53.08\00:30:55.42 affirmation. 00:30:55.42\00:30:56.85 >>TY: Yeah. 00:30:56.85\00:30:57.92 >>JEFFREY: And then, he goes into some instruction. 00:30:57.92\00:31:01.76 I love that fact, you know. 00:31:01.76\00:31:03.12 That's a beautiful... 00:31:03.12\00:31:04.26 >>JAMES: Again, the book of Revelation's instructive. 00:31:04.26\00:31:06.19 It's pastoral, but it's instructing us. 00:31:06.19\00:31:08.50 And I was grabbing these pictures because I wanted us to 00:31:08.50\00:31:11.17 use them as an illustration of what, so, in the book of 00:31:11.17\00:31:13.54 Revelation, we see these different pictures, what we look 00:31:13.54\00:31:16.14 like, you know, what our strengths and weaknesses are. 00:31:16.14\00:31:20.21 And as Jeffrey said, he always starts with the strengths, like 00:31:20.21\00:31:23.55 this picture of Jeffrey specifically. 00:31:23.55\00:31:25.55 >>TY: That's a strong picture. 00:31:25.55\00:31:26.55 >>JAMES: Look at the strength. 00:31:26.55\00:31:27.92 >>TY: I didn't even know that was Jeffrey. 00:31:27.92\00:31:29.08 >>JAMES: Yeah, look at the strength in this picture, you 00:31:29.08\00:31:30.92 know what I'm saying? 00:31:30.92\00:31:32.09 And so, we start with the strengths, and we say, yeah, but 00:31:32.09\00:31:33.32 Jeffrey, that's kind of scary, too, you've got a strong, but 00:31:33.32\00:31:37.49 it's, and that's what God does, he wants to emphasize the 00:31:37.49\00:31:41.50 positive first and then, that makes us more receptive. 00:31:41.50\00:31:44.93 And the first thing that he emphasized that I think is just 00:31:44.93\00:31:48.30 incredible is the fact that he's just there, he's just with us. 00:31:48.30\00:31:51.54 >>JEFFREY: And he's hanging out in the midst of the lamp stand, 00:31:51.54\00:31:56.81 you know, of the churches. 00:31:56.81\00:31:57.78 I love that, too. 00:31:57.78\00:31:58.98 >>DAVID: Each of the, we've mentioned the part about poet, 00:31:58.98\00:32:02.22 John is a poet and this really comes out in the, we've talked 00:32:02.22\00:32:05.69 about the 7 cycles, you have the churches and then you have the 00:32:05.69\00:32:07.56 seals and then you have the trumpets, etcetera. 00:32:07.56\00:32:09.59 But each of the letters or the admonitions and encouragements 00:32:09.59\00:32:13.56 to the seven churches follow a pattern. 00:32:13.56\00:32:15.96 The pattern of to the angel of the church that they all start 00:32:15.96\00:32:19.43 that way and then the I know, the positive, the affirmation, 00:32:19.43\00:32:24.17 transitioning, if there is some point of rebuke or of 00:32:24.17\00:32:28.04 condemnation, there are two churches that don't have that. 00:32:28.04\00:32:31.41 And then, closing with a to him that overcomes and then, he that 00:32:31.41\00:32:35.65 has an ear let him hear. 00:32:35.65\00:32:36.95 Every one of them follows that basic pattern. 00:32:36.95\00:32:39.02 So, it's helpful for us to see that, in each, to me, this 00:32:39.02\00:32:44.66 establishes that God has a consistent and really 00:32:44.66\00:32:49.63 fair-minded way of interacting with people. 00:32:49.63\00:32:52.50 He's not playing favorites. 00:32:52.50\00:32:53.77 He engages with these people and then he engages with these 00:32:53.77\00:32:55.94 people and then he engages with these people in the same way. 00:32:55.94\00:32:59.01 >>JAMES: One thing I wanna add to that, David, that I found 00:32:59.01\00:33:01.01 fascinating is a recent discovery. 00:33:01.01\00:33:02.91 You know how it is with the book of Revelation, especially, but 00:33:02.91\00:33:04.71 in the bible, you read it for years and years and years, then 00:33:04.71\00:33:07.78 all of a sudden something clicks and you're like, whoa, I never 00:33:07.78\00:33:11.35 saw that before. 00:33:11.35\00:33:12.55 And there's something in the seven churches that I never saw 00:33:12.55\00:33:14.49 before. 00:33:14.49\00:33:15.66 And that is that every single one of the seven churches 00:33:15.66\00:33:18.36 includes a promise that applies to the new heaven and the new 00:33:18.36\00:33:22.46 earth. 00:33:22.46\00:33:23.70 You're going to have a crown, you're going to sit with me at 00:33:23.70\00:33:25.77 the throne, you're going to be an appealer at my temple, you're 00:33:25.77\00:33:27.64 going to have a new name, you're gonna have, every single one of 00:33:27.64\00:33:29.64 the churches takes us all the way down past the second coming 00:33:29.64\00:33:33.34 and the time of the 1,000 year judgement. 00:33:33.34\00:33:35.88 All the way down and plants us right in the new heaven and the 00:33:35.88\00:33:38.45 new earth. 00:33:38.45\00:33:39.45 >>DAVID: That's beautiful. 00:33:39.45\00:33:40.65 >>JAMES: And you see this as part of the cycle of the seven 00:33:40.65\00:33:42.45 churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and then, of 00:33:42.45\00:33:44.45 course, the last section of Revelation. 00:33:44.45\00:33:46.45 >>TY: That's interesting. 00:33:46.45\00:33:47.46 >>JAMES: Yeah. 00:33:47.46\00:33:48.69 >>TY: I'm, so that means then, this is totally new to me, what 00:33:48.69\00:33:51.43 you just bring, that means that not only do the seven begin with 00:33:51.43\00:33:56.03 the apostolic period, first century, and go all the way to 00:33:56.03\00:33:58.77 the end, but in each one of them, it goes all the way to the 00:33:58.77\00:34:03.20 end. 00:34:03.20\00:34:04.44 >>JAMES: Each one of them ends with promises that pertain to 00:34:04.44\00:34:06.41 the new heaven and the new earth. 00:34:06.41\00:34:07.64 And each one of the cycles... 00:34:07.64\00:34:09.18 >>TY: John the poet. 00:34:09.18\00:34:10.41 >>JAMES: Each one of the cycles ends with that new heaven, new, 00:34:10.41\00:34:12.35 you know, I used to read the book of Revelation, the reason 00:34:12.35\00:34:14.62 why this is incredible to me, is 'cause I used to read the book 00:34:14.62\00:34:15.85 of Revelation, I used to think, begins in apostolic age, ends 00:34:15.85\00:34:18.95 with second coming. 00:34:18.95\00:34:20.02 Begins in apostolic age, ends with second coming. 00:34:20.02\00:34:21.79 Begins, and then, the last one, ends with second coming, but 00:34:21.79\00:34:24.63 gives us some more details that weren't in the last 3 cycles 00:34:24.63\00:34:27.50 about the new heaven and the new earth. 00:34:27.50\00:34:29.23 But no, each one of them, like let's say, for example, the 00:34:29.23\00:34:31.60 seals, that's the next section, the seals has this turnout, if 00:34:31.60\00:34:36.30 you will, where John has this pause in Revelation 7 about the 00:34:36.30\00:34:39.67 144,000 being sealed. 00:34:39.67\00:34:41.68 >>TY: Kind of an interlude. 00:34:41.68\00:34:42.61 >>JAMES: Yeah, an interlude. 00:34:42.61\00:34:43.85 And he has this great multitude picture and that picture takes 00:34:43.85\00:34:46.45 place in the new heaven and the new earth where they walk beside 00:34:46.45\00:34:49.45 the rivers of life, they don't hunger anymore, they don't 00:34:49.45\00:34:51.95 thirst anymore, they walk with the lamb and he walks beside 00:34:51.95\00:34:54.69 them, the sun doesn't light, all of this new heaven, new earth 00:34:54.69\00:34:57.59 terminology is right there in the seals. 00:34:57.59\00:34:59.76 It's in the trumpets, also, which is amazing to me because 00:34:59.76\00:35:02.80 it completes this picture of this cycle. 00:35:02.80\00:35:05.27 >>DAVID: And I suppose the takeaway here is that God always 00:35:05.27\00:35:07.50 has the best end in mind for everybody to be speaking. 00:35:07.50\00:35:12.21 Which, when you read some of the descriptions and his diagnosis 00:35:12.21\00:35:16.14 of some of these churches, the fact that he could still have 00:35:16.14\00:35:18.45 such a positive, optimistic, hopeful, love believes in all 00:35:18.45\00:35:22.32 things, hope's in all things outlook, again, back to Ty's 00:35:22.32\00:35:25.75 point, tells a lot about the personability of God. 00:35:25.75\00:35:28.59 Just as a bit of a confession here, I know that none of you 00:35:28.59\00:35:32.03 are priests, but just allow me to confess here for a bit. 00:35:32.03\00:35:34.83 For the longest time, I found the book of Revelation to be 00:35:34.83\00:35:37.97 somewhat difficult because I felt like I was trying to decode 00:35:37.97\00:35:41.37 a, almost like you're trying to crack... 00:35:41.37\00:35:43.84 >>TY: The Da Vinci Code. 00:35:43.84\00:35:45.44 >>DAVID: Yeah, that kind of a thing to where, primarily, what 00:35:45.44\00:35:49.01 was going on was information. 00:35:49.01\00:35:50.71 It's the transmission of information. 00:35:50.71\00:35:52.71 And certainly, there is that, God wants to communicate some 00:35:52.71\00:35:55.65 data about the future, about the times in which we live, I get 00:35:55.65\00:35:58.89 that, and we'll have ample time to discuss that, but it's really 00:35:58.89\00:36:02.96 interesting, when you take that sort of decoding view rather 00:36:02.96\00:36:06.23 than taking the more pastoral, poetic view, you can, it can 00:36:06.23\00:36:09.63 become very academic, where now I know the truth and I'm gonna 00:36:09.63\00:36:13.84 go tell others the truth rather than, well, so what's the truth 00:36:13.84\00:36:17.71 for me? 00:36:17.71\00:36:18.71 Have I left my first love? 00:36:18.71\00:36:19.94 Have I, you know, you go down some of those itemizations that 00:36:19.94\00:36:22.81 God has for the seven churches and if you deal with it 00:36:22.81\00:36:25.01 academically, merely in its historical context, well, then, 00:36:25.01\00:36:27.98 we get screened, but what if God is saying to you and to me and, 00:36:27.98\00:36:33.36 as we read, hey, look, you know, have you been eating things 00:36:33.36\00:36:36.62 sacrificed to idols? 00:36:36.62\00:36:37.83 Or the equivalent, the modern equivalent of that, whatever 00:36:37.83\00:36:39.69 those points of rebuke might be, gotta take that on board. 00:36:39.69\00:36:42.90 And not just the rebuke, but the positive, you know, what you're 00:36:42.90\00:36:45.57 talking about here, hey, you know, I see the end, you're 00:36:45.57\00:36:47.57 gonna be a pillar in the temple, you're gonna have a new name. 00:36:47.57\00:36:49.70 So, I love that idea that God, even when he's in the midst of 00:36:49.70\00:36:52.91 rebuke, he sees the end. 00:36:52.91\00:36:54.14 >>JEFFREY: And even further than that, not only that God sees the 00:36:54.14\00:36:58.28 end, but that in order for us to live satisfying lives, we have 00:36:58.28\00:37:02.98 to leave them in the context of this, the end. 00:37:02.98\00:37:06.09 >>JAMES: Yes, and that's one of the reasons he shows it to us. 00:37:06.09\00:37:07.46 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, so every single church, I love what you're 00:37:07.46\00:37:08.82 saying, has that trace to the end, and I think the point there 00:37:08.82\00:37:11.53 is, I think, the individual has to orient themselves. 00:37:11.53\00:37:14.46 You wanna live a meaningful life, you wanna have a great 00:37:14.46\00:37:16.43 marriage, you wanna be a great parent. 00:37:16.43\00:37:18.43 >>JAMES: Yep, compass north. 00:37:18.43\00:37:19.60 >>JEFFREY: Keep the compass on true north, and therefore, 00:37:19.60\00:37:21.90 everything in your life takes that direction, you know. 00:37:21.90\00:37:25.27 >>TY: Can I just push the pause button right there? 00:37:25.27\00:37:27.38 We have to take a break. 00:37:27.38\00:37:28.94 [Music] 00:37:28.94\00:37:39.69 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary that 00:37:39.69\00:37:42.29 traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women who 00:37:42.29\00:37:46.59 encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 00:37:46.59\00:37:49.63 literature. 00:37:49.63\00:37:50.87 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light 00:37:50.87\00:37:57.17 Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 00:37:57.17\00:38:03.28 Once again, to receive your free copy of A Light in Zambia, call 00:38:03.28\00:38:07.58 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell 00:38:07.58\00:38:15.59 Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 00:38:15.59\00:38:19.09 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 00:38:19.09\00:38:23.06 [Music] 00:38:23.06\00:38:29.30 >>TY: Not only does the seven churches prophecy reveal 00:38:29.30\00:38:33.81 segments of history that are unfolding, but I think it's 00:38:33.81\00:38:37.25 super interesting that we see Jesus, as we've mentioned, on 00:38:37.25\00:38:42.45 pastoral display from which we can learn how to navigate our 00:38:42.45\00:38:47.39 relationships. 00:38:47.39\00:38:48.69 I mean, just look at the way he does it. 00:38:48.69\00:38:51.56 Jesus is revealing defects and dysfunctions, but only in the 00:38:51.56\00:38:57.57 context of love and acceptance and promise. 00:38:57.57\00:39:00.97 What if we were to do all of our relationships like that? 00:39:00.97\00:39:03.61 What if we were to, what if we were to enter into hard 00:39:03.61\00:39:06.74 conversations with people we're close to by saying, listen, I 00:39:06.74\00:39:11.78 wanna tell you that you're incredible and the amazing 00:39:11.78\00:39:16.08 things that I've seen and you are and you have and you're a 00:39:16.08\00:39:23.32 blessing. 00:39:23.32\00:39:24.39 Now, there's something I need to tell you. 00:39:24.39\00:39:26.09 [Laughter] 00:39:26.09\00:39:27.00 You know what I'm saying? 00:39:27.00\00:39:28.00 Then, you're in a context of acceptance and love. 00:39:28.00\00:39:30.63 Jesus does that over and over and over again. 00:39:30.63\00:39:34.84 So, in that context, people can bear, I can bear, if you guys 00:39:34.84\00:39:37.54 ever have anything hard to tell me, you first need to begin by 00:39:37.54\00:39:40.54 telling me how much you love me. 00:39:40.54\00:39:44.45 >>JAMES: Biblical psychology 101. 00:39:44.45\00:39:45.55 >>DAVID: He loved us and washed us. 00:39:45.55\00:39:46.82 >>TY: Yeah, that's right, that's right. 00:39:46.82\00:39:48.48 So, let's get into the churches. 00:39:48.48\00:39:49.68 What's going on? 00:39:49.68\00:39:50.72 There's seven of them. 00:39:50.72\00:39:51.75 The first one is Ephesus. 00:39:51.75\00:39:53.32 What's going on here? 00:39:53.32\00:39:54.66 >>DAVID: For me, when I look at, just to highlight one thing that 00:39:54.66\00:39:57.43 jumps out, each of the churches, I try to say, what's the major 00:39:57.43\00:39:59.53 takeaway? 00:39:59.53\00:40:00.90 And for me, personally, when I look at the first church, the 00:40:00.90\00:40:02.90 church of Ephesus, I see the big takeaway in verse 4. 00:40:02.90\00:40:05.63 Nevertheless, this I have against you that you have left 00:40:05.63\00:40:07.74 your first love. 00:40:07.74\00:40:09.27 That's the message for me, that that's possible to be done, that 00:40:09.27\00:40:13.41 you can be on fire, you can be enthusiastic, you can be all 00:40:13.41\00:40:16.44 keyed up about the goodness, which certainly, the apostolic 00:40:16.44\00:40:18.68 church was. 00:40:18.68\00:40:19.88 And which I was, when I first came into the faith, I feel 00:40:19.88\00:40:22.38 like, most people that are converts to Christ, I'm saying, 00:40:22.38\00:40:25.35 especially if they come from outside in, there is a zeal, 00:40:25.35\00:40:28.22 there is a passion, there is a vigor, and it's like somebody 00:40:28.22\00:40:31.53 said to me not long after I was converted, hey, don't forget, 00:40:31.53\00:40:33.86 this is a marathon, not a sprint, and I think a lot of 00:40:33.86\00:40:36.13 people think that it's a sprint, they run the entire, and they 00:40:36.13\00:40:38.30 think, oh, that religion thing didn't work for me. 00:40:38.30\00:40:40.30 They literally leave their first love that they were passionate 00:40:40.30\00:40:44.07 about. 00:40:44.07\00:40:45.07 They burn out. 00:40:45.07\00:40:46.27 and so, the takeaway for me on this is, hey, remember from 00:40:46.27\00:40:49.68 where you have fallen, and what I take that to mean is go back 00:40:49.68\00:40:52.65 to that, what was the thing that originally captivated you in the 00:40:52.65\00:40:55.38 beginning? 00:40:55.38\00:40:56.62 Go back to where you last saw the light, the joy, the wonder, 00:40:56.62\00:41:00.26 the enthusiasm of that connection... 00:41:00.26\00:41:02.42 >>JEFFREY: So, it's practical. 00:41:02.42\00:41:03.43 >>DAVID: It's practical. 00:41:03.43\00:41:04.66 >>JEFFREY: You know, the awesome thing here is, I love the fact 00:41:04.66\00:41:08.00 that I have this one thing against you, it has nothing to 00:41:08.00\00:41:12.23 do with departing from right theology, it has nothing to do 00:41:12.23\00:41:16.27 in any of those respects. 00:41:16.27\00:41:17.84 The implication, it's possible to be perfectly clear on your 00:41:17.84\00:41:22.31 theology, it's possible to be... 00:41:22.31\00:41:24.31 >>JAMES: Trying those that say they are apostles that are not, 00:41:24.31\00:41:26.31 have faith... 00:41:26.31\00:41:27.52 >>JEFFREY: Yes, it's possible to be a regular student of the 00:41:27.52\00:41:29.32 bible, it's possible to regularly engage and still not 00:41:29.32\00:41:33.96 have the love of God in your heart. 00:41:33.96\00:41:35.96 Still be a jerk, still be obnoxious, still be a 00:41:35.96\00:41:40.23 misrepresentation of Jesus. 00:41:40.23\00:41:43.37 >>TY: It's, you've lost your first love. 00:41:43.37\00:41:45.37 It's not you've lost your first doctrinal realization or you 00:41:45.37\00:41:48.60 lost your first powerful academic insight and you forgot 00:41:48.60\00:41:52.54 that verse you memorized. 00:41:52.54\00:41:54.18 Not that any of that is insignificant, but you've lost 00:41:54.18\00:41:57.55 your first love. 00:41:57.55\00:41:58.55 You used to love me. 00:41:58.55\00:41:59.61 You used to love me. 00:41:59.61\00:42:00.62 >>DAVID: And you used to love others. 00:42:00.62\00:42:02.62 >>TY: And you used to love others and you don't love me and 00:42:02.62\00:42:04.62 you don't love others anymore the way you did when you first 00:42:04.62\00:42:08.29 realized this. 00:42:08.29\00:42:09.39 >>JEFFREY: And number 5, remember where you have fallen, 00:42:09.39\00:42:11.96 so a lack of first love is considered a spiritual fall to 00:42:11.96\00:42:16.13 Jesus. 00:42:16.13\00:42:17.43 >>TY: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:42:17.43\00:42:18.33 >>JEFFREY: That's powerful. 00:42:18.33\00:42:18.97 >>TY: That is very powerful. 00:42:18.97\00:42:20.14 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, 'cause we think, what's a spiritual fall? 00:42:20.14\00:42:21.30 Oh, I've fallen, I've had a moral fall and we think the 00:42:21.30\00:42:24.27 worst of, we can imagine, what does that mean? 00:42:24.27\00:42:27.71 But we never think, you know what, I just don't have that 00:42:27.71\00:42:33.05 same gentleness and sweetness about me anymore. 00:42:33.05\00:42:37.55 According to Jesus, that's considered a spiritual fall. 00:42:37.55\00:42:40.86 >>TY: Wow. 00:42:40.86\00:42:42.42 >>JEFFREY: Which is heavy. 00:42:42.42\00:42:43.53 >>JAMES: One takeaway on this for me, in relation to 00:42:43.53\00:42:47.03 everything we've said is, when you, the history's important. 00:42:47.03\00:42:50.33 When you look at the history of the early church, this is 00:42:50.33\00:42:52.50 something that happened gradually. 00:42:52.50\00:42:54.64 It was not perceptible to them. 00:42:54.64\00:42:57.14 They didn't perceive it happening, it happened over 00:42:57.14\00:42:59.27 time. 00:42:59.27\00:43:00.54 So, it wasn't like, one day, they were on fire and the next 00:43:00.54\00:43:01.71 day, they woke up and they weren't on fire anymore. 00:43:01.71\00:43:03.48 It was slowly, slowly weaning away, and so, I think that part 00:43:03.48\00:43:06.38 of what I think losing a first love is, and this is what Oswald 00:43:06.38\00:43:09.15 Chamber says, he says, the greatest enemy of our love for 00:43:09.15\00:43:12.75 Christ are our works for Christ. 00:43:12.75\00:43:15.26 So, we come to Christ, first love, we have nothing on our 00:43:15.26\00:43:18.73 hands to bring simply to his cross, we claim. 00:43:18.73\00:43:21.30 We fall in love with him because we realize we're wretched 00:43:21.30\00:43:24.47 sinners and we've never been righteous, we're skateboarding 00:43:24.47\00:43:26.94 pop punks, whatever, pop rock punks, and we come to him and he 00:43:26.94\00:43:30.47 just embraces us, he, and then, we're just like, on fire, and 00:43:30.47\00:43:33.58 then we start you know, doing this and we start doing that and 00:43:33.58\00:43:37.28 we start paying this and we start paying that and that goes 00:43:37.28\00:43:40.45 on for months and then it goes on for years and pretty soon, we 00:43:40.45\00:43:42.85 get to the place where we don't quite feel like we're coming to 00:43:42.85\00:43:45.55 Jesus with nothing in our hands. 00:43:45.55\00:43:47.56 We got a lot of stuff in our hands to bring. 00:43:47.56\00:43:49.56 That's how we're losing our first love. 00:43:49.56\00:43:51.56 And so, then, Christ, and sometimes, it does happen 00:43:51.56\00:43:53.70 through a fall, Christ reminds us, you know, the beginning, 00:43:53.70\00:43:56.46 finding out where it first started is remembering that your 00:43:56.46\00:43:58.90 entire dependence was on me. 00:43:58.90\00:44:00.27 It wasn't all about stuff that you were doing. 00:44:00.27\00:44:02.37 And that firs love ignites again. 00:44:02.37\00:44:04.37 >>TY: Okay, what about the next one, church number two, which is 00:44:04.37\00:44:07.21 Smyrna in chapter 2, verses 8-11. 00:44:07.21\00:44:10.41 >>DAVID: The thing that jumps out at me, if you don't mind if 00:44:10.41\00:44:13.55 I just dive in. 00:44:13.55\00:44:14.55 >>TY: Dive in. 00:44:14.55\00:44:15.75 >>DAVID: To me, I love verse 9, this idea that, I know your 00:44:15.75\00:44:17.75 works, tribulation, and poverty, and then I love this 00:44:17.75\00:44:19.75 parenthetical statement, but you are rich. 00:44:19.75\00:44:22.66 This is one of the two churches of whom Jesus gives no 00:44:22.66\00:44:25.29 constructive criticism or rebuke, it's all positive, and 00:44:25.29\00:44:28.90 what I love about this is, look, what the world sees is not what 00:44:28.90\00:44:32.63 I see. 00:44:32.63\00:44:33.87 You know, you don't have goods, you don't have the material, but 00:44:33.87\00:44:37.31 Jesus is like, let me be clear on this, you're rich. 00:44:37.31\00:44:39.31 Which is fascinating because when Jesus comes to the last 00:44:39.31\00:44:41.31 church, he's gonna say, yet, you think you're rich, but you're 00:44:41.31\00:44:44.75 actually poor, where this church, hey, you might appear to 00:44:44.75\00:44:47.35 be poor, but you're actually rich. 00:44:47.35\00:44:49.35 >>TY: Not only are you poor, but the Smyrna church is under 00:44:49.35\00:44:54.56 tribulation, it says. 00:44:54.56\00:44:56.89 So, this church is under persecution. 00:44:56.89\00:44:58.99 There's some terrible stuff going down and then, Jesus says, 00:44:58.99\00:45:01.86 but you're rich. 00:45:01.86\00:45:03.10 So, wealth and riches is weighed and calculated on a different 00:45:03.10\00:45:11.54 level than we tend to weigh and calculate riches. 00:45:11.54\00:45:17.45 So, in what sense were they rich? 00:45:17.45\00:45:19.41 Well, they're rich in love for Jesus, they're rich in the 00:45:19.41\00:45:22.22 gospel, they're rich in understanding, rich 00:45:22.22\00:45:24.55 relationally. 00:45:24.55\00:45:26.12 >>JAMES: They're rich in faith. 00:45:26.12\00:45:27.12 James says, rich in faith. 00:45:27.12\00:45:28.36 >>TY: Yeah. 00:45:28.36\00:45:29.46 >>DAVID: And when you look at the period, we have the 00:45:29.46\00:45:31.63 apostolic church in Ephesus, it was not long after that, you get 00:45:31.63\00:45:34.93 into the second and third centuries, particularly with the 00:45:34.93\00:45:37.07 persecutions of Domitian, Diocletian, maybe Desean, I 00:45:37.07\00:45:41.37 might've gotten that one wrong, but you have these periods of 00:45:41.37\00:45:43.77 significant persecution in the second and third centuries where 00:45:43.77\00:45:45.71 the church was really under the thumb of imperial Rome and that, 00:45:45.71\00:45:48.31 I think, is the very prophetic trajectory that's being defined 00:45:48.31\00:45:52.48 here. 00:45:52.48\00:45:53.55 Hey, a period of significant tribulation will come. 00:45:53.55\00:45:55.48 >>JAMES: The ten days is definitely Diocletian, 303 and 00:45:55.48\00:45:57.75 313. 00:45:57.75\00:45:58.79 So, what about the next church? 00:45:58.79\00:46:01.02 Because I think there's a contrast between the two. 00:46:01.02\00:46:03.49 In the next church, in this church, you have people who are, 00:46:03.49\00:46:06.76 you know, afflicted, and they seem poor but they're rich, in 00:46:06.76\00:46:09.63 spiritual experience. 00:46:09.63\00:46:12.00 But I think in the church of Pergamum, it completely switches 00:46:12.00\00:46:15.30 because Pergamum means elevation, the church is being 00:46:15.30\00:46:17.61 elevated from a worldly perspective. 00:46:17.61\00:46:19.67 >>TY: Politically. 00:46:19.67\00:46:20.81 >>JAMES: Yes, economically, they're being given favor 00:46:20.81\00:46:23.81 because Constantine comes on the scene right after 313, right at 00:46:23.81\00:46:26.85 the Diocletian, Constantine comes on the scene, 321, Sunday 00:46:26.85\00:46:29.78 law passed, the church becomes the main center and focus, 00:46:29.78\00:46:32.75 paganism, pagans come into the church by the thousands and all 00:46:32.75\00:46:35.76 of a sudden, the church is elevated in the world. 00:46:35.76\00:46:38.56 It becomes rich in worldly wealth, in worldly status. 00:46:38.56\00:46:41.53 >>TY: And the Pergamum church, the third church, is 00:46:41.53\00:46:44.13 acknowledged to be in a position in the world where verse 13, 00:46:44.13\00:46:52.11 where Satan's throne is. 00:46:52.11\00:46:54.21 Now, that's interesting language. 00:46:54.21\00:46:56.21 So, this isn't talking about a literal ornate chair somewhere 00:46:56.21\00:47:01.12 that the devil, in physical form, is sitting on. 00:47:01.12\00:47:03.62 This is essentially telling us that there is a way in which 00:47:03.62\00:47:08.39 religion, and in this particular context, Christianity, which is 00:47:08.39\00:47:12.03 becoming elevated politically, there is a sense in which 00:47:12.03\00:47:15.53 religion can be the throne of Satan. 00:47:15.53\00:47:18.93 Satan is actually working through and in religion, even in 00:47:18.93\00:47:26.68 Christianity in different times in history. 00:47:26.68\00:47:28.94 >>JAMES: Well, look at this contrast, okay? 00:47:28.94\00:47:30.95 In the previous church, church of Smyrna, notice how he points 00:47:30.95\00:47:34.18 out here in verse 10, for you know these things which thou 00:47:34.18\00:47:37.25 shall suffer, behold, the devil, that's Satan, shall cast some of 00:47:37.25\00:47:40.06 you into prison. 00:47:40.06\00:47:41.22 Then, you go to the next church, and that church is rich in 00:47:41.22\00:47:43.76 spiritual things, but poor, then, you go to the next church 00:47:43.76\00:47:46.29 and what happens? 00:47:46.29\00:47:47.30 Satan's throne is now in the church. 00:47:47.30\00:47:49.26 And the church, as an evidence of that... 00:47:49.26\00:47:51.27 >>JEFFREY: He couldn't beat them, so he joined them. 00:47:51.27\00:47:53.47 >>JAMES: And evidence of that is economic prosperity, political 00:47:53.47\00:47:56.87 prosperity. 00:47:56.87\00:47:58.11 >>TY: So, why are we, as quote unquote Christians, up in arms 00:47:58.11\00:48:03.18 when people who quote unquote aren't Christians, unbelievers, 00:48:03.18\00:48:06.88 level their criticism against historical Christianity? 00:48:06.88\00:48:10.92 Shouldn't we be nodding our heads and saying amen? 00:48:10.92\00:48:13.32 Shouldn't we be saying, listen, if you're looking at the 00:48:13.32\00:48:18.13 horrible dastardly deeds of Christianity in history, we're 00:48:18.13\00:48:22.76 not gonna defend that. 00:48:22.76\00:48:24.47 That was Satanic in the name of Christ, that was satanic under 00:48:24.47\00:48:29.00 the guise of Christianity. 00:48:29.00\00:48:30.64 We should be aligning ourselves, I told somebody recently, came 00:48:30.64\00:48:34.14 right out of my mouth, I had to explain, but I said, listen, 00:48:34.14\00:48:37.41 according to what some people have represented Christ to be 00:48:37.41\00:48:39.91 down through history and according to what some people 00:48:39.91\00:48:42.22 believe about God, God himself was an atheist. 00:48:42.22\00:48:45.19 God himself doesn't believe in the god that has been forced on 00:48:45.19\00:48:49.46 the world. 00:48:49.46\00:48:50.63 We should be affirming unbelief where unbelief is totally 00:48:50.63\00:48:54.93 legitimate. 00:48:54.93\00:48:56.13 >>DAVID: And admirable. 00:48:56.13\00:48:57.37 >>JAMES: And that's verse 13, I know thy works and where thou 00:48:57.37\00:48:59.63 dwellest, even where Satan's seat is, and thou holdest fast 00:48:59.63\00:49:03.00 my name, my character. 00:49:03.00\00:49:04.17 In other words, Satan's come in, but you're not denying my 00:49:04.17\00:49:06.94 character. 00:49:06.94\00:49:07.98 Satan's coming into the church and the church is 00:49:07.98\00:49:10.21 misrepresenting the character of God, but you're not. 00:49:10.21\00:49:12.35 >>TY: Is that still Pergamum? 00:49:12.35\00:49:13.88 >>JAMES: That's still Pergamum. 00:49:13.88\00:49:15.12 >>TY: Alright, yeah. 00:49:15.12\00:49:16.35 >>JAMES: That's verse 13, right when it's happening, in other 00:49:16.35\00:49:18.12 words, it seems as though the key thing to do, in the context 00:49:18.12\00:49:22.09 of compromise with Christianity in the world is to hold fast to 00:49:22.09\00:49:26.13 God's character and to keep revealing God's character and I 00:49:26.13\00:49:29.16 would say it this way, that is a theme that's going to take us 00:49:29.16\00:49:31.90 all the way through the book of Revelation, that we would hold 00:49:31.90\00:49:34.04 onto God's character and not compromise it politically or 00:49:34.04\00:49:36.84 economically. 00:49:36.84\00:49:38.07 >>DAVID: You threw those dates out real quick, James, but maybe 00:49:38.07\00:49:39.84 for our viewers who are not as familiar with church history, we 00:49:39.84\00:49:42.41 should say that probably, apart from the resurrection of Jesus, 00:49:42.41\00:49:46.05 which is the singular most significant even to happen in 00:49:46.05\00:49:48.98 church history, of course, without the resurrection, there 00:49:48.98\00:49:51.39 is no church. 00:49:51.39\00:49:51.99 >>JEFFREY: Human history. 00:49:51.99\00:49:53.15 >>DAVID: The conversion of Constantine at the beginning, 00:49:53.15\00:49:55.56 right at the begging of the 4th century, AD 312 is probably the 00:49:55.56\00:50:00.53 single most significant post-resurrection event to 00:50:00.53\00:50:02.76 happen in church history. 00:50:02.76\00:50:04.70 >>TY: Absolutely. 00:50:04.70\00:50:05.90 >>DAVID: 'Cause you go from the pre-Constantine world, where 00:50:05.90\00:50:08.50 it's a persecuted, political minority, it's not even a 00:50:08.50\00:50:11.11 political factor at all and all of a sudden, you are this grand, 00:50:11.11\00:50:16.04 big political empire or part of the political empire and now 00:50:16.04\00:50:21.68 there's political ambition and there's wealth ambition and we 00:50:21.68\00:50:25.79 live in the post-Constantinian world, that's the world we live 00:50:25.79\00:50:28.49 in, and so, I love what you say there, Ty, when I have a lot of 00:50:28.49\00:50:32.23 people say to me, I'm not really up on church, I don't like 00:50:32.23\00:50:35.36 church. 00:50:35.36\00:50:36.53 I know what they're saying, they're saying, I know about 00:50:36.53\00:50:38.53 history, I know what churches have done, I know the way 00:50:38.53\00:50:40.60 churches can be, and you know what, my resonance with that is 00:50:40.60\00:50:43.24 deep. 00:50:43.24\00:50:44.24 I say, me neither. 00:50:44.24\00:50:45.47 'Cause what they mean by church is not your humble, local little 00:50:45.47\00:50:49.01 happy Seventh Adventist or Baptist or Pentecostal church 00:50:49.01\00:50:51.95 where everybody loves one another and things are great. 00:50:51.95\00:50:53.95 When they're thinking, I'm down on church, much of what they're 00:50:53.95\00:50:55.95 thinking is, I know what the church has done, and I don't 00:50:55.95\00:50:58.89 want any part of it. 00:50:58.89\00:50:59.95 The good news is, Jesus doesn't wanna be part of it. 00:50:59.95\00:51:02.06 >>JEFFREY: Exactly, and I even feel like the fact that, of the 00:51:02.06\00:51:05.69 dirty laundry of church history, I think that doesn't discredit 00:51:05.69\00:51:08.93 the church in principle. 00:51:08.93\00:51:10.80 I think that that just supports it, because we would say, as 00:51:10.80\00:51:13.13 bible students and as prophecy students, we're not surprised, 00:51:13.13\00:51:16.60 this is not something that came out of left field, it was 00:51:16.60\00:51:19.07 predicted that it would happen. 00:51:19.07\00:51:20.31 >>TY: We're gonna run out of time in about less than 5 00:51:20.31\00:51:22.34 minutes, so what about church number four because there's a 00:51:22.34\00:51:24.85 natural segue from what James was describing as Pergamum into 00:51:24.85\00:51:30.29 Thyatira, what's going on there? 00:51:30.29\00:51:32.29 >>JAMES: Well, it gets even worse because now, we've not 00:51:32.29\00:51:34.29 only transitioned from the world persecuting the church to the 00:51:34.29\00:51:36.89 world coming into the church, but now we've got the world, I 00:51:36.89\00:51:39.13 mean the church itself persecuting the faithful. 00:51:39.13\00:51:41.90 And Thyatira gives reference to Jezebel, that false prophetess, 00:51:41.90\00:51:46.90 the reason why that reference is made is because the history of 00:51:46.90\00:51:49.87 Ahab and Jezebel who were followers of God, followers of 00:51:49.87\00:51:52.64 the Lord, but false worshippers persecuting God's prophets, 00:51:52.64\00:51:56.95 persecuting God's people, persecuting Elisha. 00:51:56.95\00:51:59.65 >>DAVID: It's in house now. 00:51:59.65\00:52:01.05 >>JAMES: Yeah, it's in house now. 00:52:01.05\00:52:02.02 >>DAVID: It's not Romans external, it's in house. 00:52:02.02\00:52:03.52 >>TY: My bible actually has the heading there in chapter 2, 00:52:03.52\00:52:06.19 verses 18 and onward for the Thyatira church, my heading is 00:52:06.19\00:52:10.79 the corrupt church. 00:52:10.79\00:52:13.29 It's completely given over to the people, it's the instrument 00:52:13.29\00:52:16.43 of the devil in the world, but it's call Christianity. 00:52:16.43\00:52:19.13 >>JEFFREY: And the previous church was the compromising 00:52:19.13\00:52:21.17 church, so at that stage, it's just flirting with it, and then, 00:52:21.17\00:52:22.90 by the time you get down there, to Thyatira, now it's become the 00:52:22.90\00:52:26.64 personification of it. 00:52:26.64\00:52:28.01 >>TY: And then, after the corrupt period, which is the 00:52:28.01\00:52:30.08 fourth church, we go into the fifth church, which begins in 00:52:30.08\00:52:33.42 chapter 3 verse 1, what's going on here? 00:52:33.42\00:52:37.19 What is this period? 00:52:37.19\00:52:38.79 What's going on? 00:52:38.79\00:52:40.46 >>JAMES: Well, the last promise in the context of Thyatira was 00:52:40.46\00:52:42.99 to him that overcomes, I'm gonna give the morning star and John 00:52:42.99\00:52:46.80 Wycliffe was considered the morning star of the reformation. 00:52:46.80\00:52:49.26 It's kind of leading us into this movement that is pulling 00:52:49.26\00:52:54.04 some light out of the darkness. 00:52:54.04\00:52:56.07 You've got Luther, you've got Wycliffe, you've got other 00:52:56.07\00:52:58.94 reformers that come in and start bringing light and truth back to 00:52:58.94\00:53:02.88 God's people. 00:53:02.88\00:53:04.05 >>DAVID: Back into a church that was filled with darkness. 00:53:04.05\00:53:05.81 So, we should say, for our viewer, that AD 331, that's when 00:53:05.81\00:53:09.05 Wycliffe is born. 00:53:09.05\00:53:10.39 So, now we're getting into what's called the protestant 00:53:10.39\00:53:12.49 period. 00:53:12.49\00:53:13.36 >>JAMES: AD what? 00:53:13.36\00:53:14.52 >>DAVID: 1331, I'm sorry. 00:53:14.52\00:53:17.26 1331. 00:53:17.26\00:53:18.46 So, you have a period there where there's a reformation out, 00:53:18.46\00:53:22.26 a reforming of that original apostolic, an embryo. 00:53:22.26\00:53:26.50 >>JEFFREY: It begins, the starts. 00:53:26.50\00:53:28.50 >>DAVID: That little star there. 00:53:28.50\00:53:30.01 >>JEFFREY: A spark. 00:53:30.01\00:53:31.24 >>DAVID: That's the prophetic picture that you talked about, I 00:53:31.24\00:53:33.01 think, for us personally, you know, we cannot divorce 00:53:33.01\00:53:35.94 ourselves from the fact that religion can go bad. 00:53:35.94\00:53:40.62 Religion is perishable. 00:53:40.62\00:53:42.38 It's like food that's perishable. 00:53:42.38\00:53:43.55 It can go bad and not just historically, and not just with 00:53:43.55\00:53:47.12 some other church, with us. 00:53:47.12\00:53:49.36 >>JAMES: Now, another thing here that I think is important is the 00:53:49.36\00:53:52.19 message to Sardis is that I have not found your works perfect and 00:53:52.19\00:53:56.60 what I like about this is, God is moving his people on, on, on, 00:53:56.60\00:54:01.37 don't stop there, don't stop with Luther, don't stop with 00:54:01.37\00:54:03.14 Wycliffe, don't stop with Wesley, keep moving, keep 00:54:03.14\00:54:05.84 moving, keep moving, because I've got a destiny for you and I 00:54:05.84\00:54:09.41 think that destiny is the next church, is Philadelphia, the 00:54:09.41\00:54:12.38 church of brotherly love. 00:54:12.38\00:54:13.58 >>TY: Yeah, Philadelphia actually means brotherly love 00:54:13.58\00:54:16.38 and now, we're seeing, historically, the fruit of the 00:54:16.38\00:54:20.49 protestant reformation in a church, the second of the two 00:54:20.49\00:54:25.73 churches among the seven that has no criticism, no rebuke from 00:54:25.73\00:54:31.00 Jesus. 00:54:31.00\00:54:32.17 He essentially says, what's going on with this church is 00:54:32.17\00:54:35.44 powerful and beautiful and I have no correction to offer at 00:54:35.44\00:54:38.77 all. 00:54:38.77\00:54:39.87 >>JAMES: And then we go over the top of Laodicea, because 00:54:39.87\00:54:41.78 Laodicea takes us right back into this comfortable, ease, 00:54:41.78\00:54:45.15 loving, you know, I'm rich increases goods in need of 00:54:45.15\00:54:47.52 nothing type of, and it's all going back to relationship with 00:54:47.52\00:54:50.12 Christ, the first church started with the relationship with 00:54:50.12\00:54:52.55 Christ, the last church ends with a relationship with Christ. 00:54:52.55\00:54:55.46 Christ is on the outside, knocking. 00:54:55.46\00:54:57.46 I wanna get in, I wanna get in, I wanna get in. 00:54:57.46\00:54:59.46 >>TY: That's in the Laodicean period, yeah. 00:54:59.46\00:55:01.43 I think we're in the Laodicean period historically. 00:55:01.43\00:55:03.47 Let's hope we're not in the Laodicean condition personally, 00:55:03.47\00:55:06.94 you know what I mean? 00:55:06.94\00:55:08.17 >>DAVID: I love the idea that the churches never give you the 00:55:08.17\00:55:11.44 chance to feel at peace in the sense that like, oh, we've 00:55:11.44\00:55:14.71 arrived. 00:55:14.71\00:55:15.94 It's always, what, hey, what, and we can work on that, and we 00:55:15.94\00:55:19.08 can work on that, but I love what you said, Ty, there at the 00:55:19.08\00:55:21.48 outset, it's always in the context of love and of hope and 00:55:21.48\00:55:24.85 of promise. 00:55:24.85\00:55:26.05 >>TY: When Jesus comes to that final church, the Laodicean 00:55:26.05\00:55:28.99 church, I think it's incredible and we didn't mention a lot of 00:55:28.99\00:55:32.56 promises, but the promise to the Laodicean church is hey, if you 00:55:32.56\00:55:37.33 overcome your apathetic, ridiculously terrible religious 00:55:37.33\00:55:42.90 condition, if you overcome this, you're going to be enthroned 00:55:42.90\00:55:48.01 with me for all eternity. 00:55:48.01\00:55:50.98 I'm gonna give you a seat at the table, governing and running the 00:55:50.98\00:55:55.82 universe with me if you overcome it, and that is a very good note 00:55:55.82\00:56:00.69 to close on. 00:56:00.69\00:56:01.66 [Music] 00:56:01.66\00:56:04.73 to close on. 00:56:04.73\00:56:04.99 [Music] 00:56:04.99\00:56:05.03