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Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000401A
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00:00 [Music]
00:00 [Music] 00:10 [Music] 00:21 >>TY: Now, this is gonna be really fun. 00:22 We're about to launch into season four of Table Talk, and 00:26 we've chosen a subject which, for some people, would be 00:29 regarded as a fool's errand, the Revelation, which some people 00:34 regard as the concealment. 00:37 The world is full of people who say, you can't understand that 00:39 book. 00:40 Don't even tackle it. 00:41 It's full of symbols. 00:43 Nobody knows what it means, but is the book mistitled? 00:48 Should it have a different name? 00:49 I mean, God inspired the book, and it's called the Revelation, 00:55 so it seems like we should expect to actually understand 01:00 what the book teaches. 01:03 Are you guys up for this? 01:05 >>JAMES: Absolutely. 01:06 >>TY: Are you game? 01:07 >>DAVID: I know that James is fired up. 01:08 Yeah, I'm ready for it, I'm excited. 01:10 >>TY: Are you? 01:11 >>DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. 01:12 >>TY: There's amazing material here. 01:13 >>JAMES: What about Jeffrey, I didn't hear anything from 01:14 Jeffrey. 01:15 >>DAVID: Yeah, he was suspiciously quiet, wasn't he? 01:16 I think we need to get him going. 01:18 >>JEFFREY: I'm staring at the title, the Revelation of Jesus 01:19 Christ. 01:19 I'm just letting that sink in. 01:21 >>DAVID: So, to answer the question, are you excited about 01:23 it? 01:24 >>JEFFREY: Something is being revealed. 01:25 >>DAVID: Something is being revealed, okay. 01:26 >>JEFFREY: See, this is the first time I've read that title. 01:26 It's amazing. 01:27 >>TY: Well, I wanna begin each of our sessions together, of the 01:32 13, through the book of Revelation with a question that 01:35 may seem unrelated, but related, so, here's the first question 01:41 and maybe we'll come back to it toward the end. 01:44 If you could, right now, snap your fingers and change any one 01:47 of your physical traits, what would it be? 01:51 >>JEFFREY: Wrists. 01:52 >>TY: Wrists? 01:52 Do you have weak wrists? 01:53 >>JEFFREY: Wimpy wrists. 01:55 >>DAVID: You'd have big strong wrists. 01:56 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, just big, buff ones. 01:58 >>TY: James, David. 02:01 James, David. 02:02 >>DAVID: I would have better posture. 02:03 I would want perfectly erect, straight up posture. 02:05 >>TY: I didn't know you'd say that, I had one in mind for you. 02:06 Just 'cause I know you. 02:09 I thought you were gonna say, you wish you could grow a full 02:10 beard. 02:11 >>DAVID: I take it back, I take the posture thing back. 02:13 [Laughter] 02:16 >>TY: James. 02:16 >>JAMES: I'd actually like to be taller. 02:17 I'd like to be 6'4". 02:19 >>TY: Six four? 02:21 >>JAMES: Yeah, I'd like 6'4". 02:22 >>TY: What are you, 5'8"? 02:23 >>JAMES: Yeah, 5'8 1/2". 02:25 Just a half inch taller than you, just barely. 02:28 >>DAVID: Let me tell you something, I just read a report, 02:29 statistically, people that are tall, over 6 foot, live less 02:33 long than people who are shorter. 02:34 >>JAMES: Unless they're basketball players. 02:36 >>TY: I read that years ago. 02:37 >>JAMES: I.E. 02:39 Wilt Chamberlain. 02:40 >>DAVID: No, he died very young, he died young. 02:43 You're thinking Bill Russell. 02:44 >>JAMES: Bill Russell, that's who I'm thinking of. 02:46 >>DAVID: Let me help you with your statistics. 02:47 >>TY: Well, somebody asked me that recently. 02:50 >>DAVID: If you could change one... 02:51 >>TY: Yeah. 02:52 >>JAMES: What is your thing? 02:53 >>TY: My think would be lung capacity. 02:54 >>JAMES: Really? 02:55 >>TY: Yeah. 02:56 >>DAVID: That's not a physical characteristic. 02:57 >>TY: Are your lungs not physical? 02:58 >>DAVID: Well, if we could change that, then I would... 03:00 >>TY: I would love to be able to process, take in, larger amounts 03:05 of oxygen and process it so well that my resting heart rate would 03:08 be about 40. 03:10 What's your resting heart rate, David? 03:11 Do you know? 03:13 >>DAVID: It's low, it's low, it's under 50, it's like 45, 46. 03:14 >>JAMES: Really? 03:16 >>TY: Okay, so the book of Revelation. 03:19 >>DAVID: Yeah, let's get back to that. 03:20 >>TY: The book of Revelation has traits, it has actually 03:25 features. 03:26 >>DAVID: That's a good tie in, I like that. 03:27 >>TY: Yeah, it has actual features, there are things about 03:31 it that are consistent patterns that show up over and over again 03:35 and let's look at that, but right now, I think that it's 03:39 appropriate to pause and to sympathize and to just express 03:45 our solidarity with the chaos and the craziness and the pain 03:49 of the world around us. 03:51 Today, as we begin filming this series on Revelation is, what is 03:56 it, July 18th. 03:58 Just yesterday, as we get together to do this, the world 04:02 right now is reeling because just yesterday, in Baton Rouge, 04:05 3 more police officers shot dead in an ambush, 3 injured. 04:11 That's just yesterday, and you trace this thing back, just in 04:14 the month of July, incredibly horrible things happening all 04:17 over the place, we have the police shooting of Sterling, we 04:24 have the police shooting of Castile, we've got retribution, 04:30 vigilante retribution coming in places like Dallas with 5 police 04:35 officers shot by a sniper in a kind of revenge execution style. 04:41 We've got this 20-ton truck coming straight into Nice as 04:48 they're celebrating Bastille Day and the guy flips the thing 04:51 sideways, most people down, kills 84. 04:54 >>DAVID: That was 84. 04:55 >>TY: 84. 04:56 It's just... 04:58 >>JEFFREY: I was telling my wife that it's like we're in a movie, 05:00 this is like not even real. 05:01 >>TY: It's just one thing after another, isn't it? 05:04 It's just one thing after another. 05:06 >>DAVID: And speaking of France, it's not that long ago that you 05:09 had the shooting in France. 05:10 >>TY: Yei, in November, 130 people shot in, what was it a 05:12 public venue of some kind, a concert hall. 05:15 >>DAVID: Yeah, it was like a rock and roll concert. 05:17 >>TY: Yeah, but just the pain and... 05:21 >>DAVID: Orlando. 05:22 >>TY: Orlando, the nightclub there, just one thing after 05:28 another, and there's an interesting dynamic going on 05:31 because if you pay attention to what is happening, people are 05:36 beginning to lose faith in the system of law and order itself 05:42 and taking law into their own hands and beginning to try to 05:45 bring about justice in a world that they feel like justice is 05:50 just draining out of the world. 05:54 That's the situation that we're in, so, my curiosity is, does 06:00 the book of Revelation speak significantly into our world's 06:06 confusion and pain? 06:08 Does the book of Revelation, is it relevant right now to our 06:12 world that we live in, does it say things to us and to the 06:16 world we live in or is it just a bunch of cartoonish characters 06:21 that nobody can figure out? 06:23 Does the book of Revelation speak to the world that we live 06:27 in right now? 06:29 >>JEFFREY: I love, even in the historical context that the book 06:32 is even written in, John is sitting on an island, right? 06:36 Exiled. 06:37 And if we were to enter into his headspace, it was probably a 06:41 chaotic world. 06:43 >>TY: Probably, it was. 06:44 >>JEFFREY: Things were spinning out of control and God seemed to 06:48 be out of the picture. 06:50 It would be conceivable for thinking people to wonder, where 06:53 is God? 06:54 Why is the world so crazy? 06:56 Christians were being persecuted, John is sitting on 06:59 this island to rot to death and so, he pens this crazy, epic, 07:06 majestic vision in the book of Revelation. 07:08 So, before we even jump into what the book says, I think it's 07:12 significant the setting in which it's written in. 07:15 Like, who's actually writing this down? 07:17 Who's relaying these visions? 07:20 So, I think, when we read, we're reading into a situation where 07:24 the author himself was, quote unquote watching the news, 07:27 thinking, this is nuts, what's happening? 07:31 >>DAVID: He was living the news. 07:32 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, he was in it, he was in it, and so, I don't 07:34 think any of us have been stranded, left to rot on an 07:38 island for our faith and yet, that's the setting of the book. 07:42 I think that's powerful. 07:44 >>TY: Well, one of the features of the book, I mentioned a 07:47 moment ago, it has patterns, features. 07:50 One of the features of the book, see if you guys have noticed 07:54 this or if you think there's any problem with this, I think that 07:57 one of the things that's happening in the book of 08:00 Revelation is that evil escalates, it implodes, and it 08:05 ends. 08:07 That's different than the general perspective that we have 08:10 in the world. 08:11 The news in our world that makes all of our hearts heavy just 08:15 reports the evil that is going on in the world. 08:19 The book of Revelation, in a sense, we'll discover, reports 08:22 evil in advance, that's why it's called prophecy, but the book of 08:26 Revelation does something that no newscast, that no human 08:31 political system, that no religious system can do. 08:34 The book of Revelation explains the methodology by which God is 08:39 going to bring evil to an end and it reports to us that evil 08:44 isn't a feature of reality eternally. 08:49 ITts not built into the system, it's an intruder in the system. 08:53 Yeah, yeah. 08:56 >>DAVID: Could you say that again, Ty? 08:57 Evil is not a, did you say a feature? 08:58 >>TY: It's not a feature of reality intrinsically, it, 09:02 reality wasn't made to sustain evil. 09:05 Why do you think we're all crying out for justice? 09:08 I mean, people who believe in God or not, even atheists, if 09:12 someone says, I don't even believe in God, they look at 09:14 what's happening in the world and there's this sense of 09:16 justice that rises up and says, that needs to end, that needs to 09:19 stop. 09:20 >>JEFFREY: It's like we're wired to react, we're wired to 09:22 recognize that this is not the way it was meant to be, it's 09:25 like, what's that analogy, if a fish is in water, it doesn't 09:30 know that it's wet, it's its natural habitat. 09:35 The minute we get plunged into a body of water, we immediately 09:38 know that we're wet, right? 09:40 We don't belong in that environment and so, God, no God, 09:44 religion, no religion, everybody instinctively, you know, 09:50 recognizes that something is wrong. 09:53 At that level, at least, we're all on the same page. 09:56 And so, from there, we plunge into explanations, trying to 10:00 figure it out, trying to make sense out of it and from there 10:03 grows other worldviews and religions and perspectives and 10:06 philosophies. 10:08 We're all trying to explain the same, like you were saying, hot 10:10 mess, right? 10:11 The same mess. 10:13 >>DAVID: On that note, two things I wanna say to that, I 10:15 love that, Jeffrey, is that, I just read a book recently that 10:18 said that the dilemma or the culture of the modern situation 10:25 is the radical depersonalization of evil. 10:28 So, historically, people have regarded evil. 10:31 If you go down through the ages, through various cultures around 10:34 the world, evil has been regarded as, there is an 10:37 antagonist,whether it's the evil spirits or there is a devil like 10:40 figure. 10:41 That's not the world we live in today. 10:43 Today, we live in a world where evil is radically 10:45 depersonalized. 10:47 It's the modern world, it's the scientific world, it's natural. 10:48 But this gets really problematic because if this is just part of 10:53 a larger process and just everything in the universe can 10:56 be explained by the universe, you know, there's nothing 10:58 transcendent, there's no God, there's no spirits, there's 11:01 nothing outside, well then it gets really tricky because the 11:05 whole call for justice, the whole sense of alienation that 11:09 we feel from the way things should be is just a grand 11:12 illusion, I guess, that's been fobbed off on us by... 11:15 >>TY: We taught it to ourselves. 11:16 >>DAVID: We taught it to ourselves, but I don't think so, 11:19 I think that the sense of alienation that we feel, and the 11:21 truth of the matter is, when we experience these things, you 11:24 began by outlining the world in which we find ourselves. 11:27 We are becoming or we may already be tragically, what's 11:34 the word I'm looking for here? 11:35 >>TY: Desensitized? 11:36 >>DAVID: Desensitized to them and we've just accommodated 11:38 these things, we just regard them as that's just a part of 11:40 reality but I believe that every one of us knows that some 11:44 significant, emotional, personal, emotive level, that's 11:51 not right. 11:52 It's not right and it's not just right in an, oh, well, that was 11:55 an inconvenience, you know, for the people in Nice or the people 11:58 in Orlando or whatever. 11:59 >>TY: Or, in my opinion, those people shouldn't have been shot. 12:00 >>DAVID: Yeah, we're not talking about soup and salad, pizza and 12:03 pasta, you know, blue or red, that's wrong. 12:06 That's the world that we live in and evil is not something to be 12:09 accommodated, it's something to be resisted and Revelation 12:13 paints that picture. 12:14 >>TY: Yeah, Revelation, check this out, I don't know where it 12:17 is off the top of my head, but we'll come to it, James may know 12:19 exactly the passage, I'm not sure, but there's one place in 12:22 the book of Revelation where the heart cry of the human race is 12:28 spoken by John is spoken by John when he says, how long? 12:31 >>JAMES: Revelation 6. 12:33 >>TY: Revelation 6. 12:34 So, the question is, there's bad stuff happening in this 12:37 particular context. 12:38 There's been prostitution, there's been, people have been 12:40 killed mercilessly, and there's this crying out, how long? 12:45 Well, that how long question, that's our question, that's the 12:49 question of the human race. 12:52 How long is evil going to triumph and go on and on and on. 12:56 People in the news are being interviewed and in so many 13:00 different ways with different language, people are saying, how 13:04 long is this gonna go on? 13:05 We gotta do something, we gotta do something, we gotta do 13:07 something. 13:09 >>JEFFREY: The context, the context of the text you quoted 13:11 is judge. 13:12 Justice. 13:12 How long will we... 13:15 >>JAMES: Do we not judge and avenge our blood on them that 13:17 dwell on the earth? 13:19 And the other things is, on them that dwell on the earth, there 13:20 are individuals on the earth, against which judgement needs to 13:23 come because of the wickedness that they're doing, because of 13:25 the things that they're doing and you realize that this is 13:28 also a theme because the book of Revelation is written in this 13:30 repeating and large type of way. 13:33 >>DAVID: Say something, say it again. 13:35 >>JAMES: And when we look at evil, like Jeffrey was saying 13:37 earlier, well, John was dealing with the world of evil, and 13:40 we've been dealing with centuries of evil all the way 13:43 through time, it's like these cycles that we go through where 13:45 we have this cycle of evil and darkness and then we come out of 13:49 it. 13:50 And then we go back into the cycle and then we come out of 13:51 it. 13:52 And when you look at our history, you see this over and 13:54 over again, and this is what we see in the book of Revelation, 13:57 so much so that, when you get to a third cycle in Revelation, 14:01 Revelation chapter 11, it talks about the kingdom of God 14:04 becoming the kings of this world, the kingdom of these 14:06 worlds becoming the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ, and it 14:08 says that God is going to destroy those that destroy the 14:11 earth and that word earth means, not just the physical, you know, 14:16 material, the ground, the dust, but the inhabitants also, those 14:19 who have been destroying the inhabitants. 14:20 Those who've been destroying people and hurting people and 14:23 bringing misery and pain and suffering to people are also 14:26 gonna be dealt with or avenged, as it says there in Revelation 14:29 6:10. 14:30 >>DAVID: I think it's important, I love what you say there, 14:31 James, and I think it's important that we say here at 14:33 the outset, you know, this is the opening of the series that 14:36 the plan, I think, is to go through the book of Revelation. 14:38 Right now, we're just sort of orienting ourselves to the time 14:41 in which John lived, to the time in which we live and I think the 14:43 question you're asking, Ty, is, does this book speak into our 14:46 modern context? 14:47 And the answer is a resounding yes, and I think some might be 14:52 surprised with the poignancy and the power with which it speaks 14:57 into a modern context. 14:58 That reality that we're facing right now of these events that 15:02 you described at the outset here, that's some modern, it's a 15:05 very modern phenomenon in the sense that we now have access by 15:08 communication, technology, to know things, terrible things 15:11 that could've been happening in various parts of the world in 15:13 ancient times but were not known. 15:14 But here's the key, God has known. 15:16 You know, if you were living, say 800 miles away from somebody 15:19 else, you know, 1,000 years ago, something terrible could've 15:22 happened, some act of terrorism, but you would've been none the 15:26 wiser, you know, at least immediately. 15:28 Now, we just have this massive, you know, onslaught of 15:32 information. 15:33 Something happens anywhere and everywhere and you just pick up 15:35 your phone and we're just not, we're not capacitated to deal, 15:40 I don't think we're capacitated with evil at all. 15:43 I think we have, we have these mechanisms that insulate us from 15:46 it, but to deal with the level of evil and the level of pain 15:51 and the level of suffering that is coming to us right now, I 15:54 think that we are all, at some level, hugely and emotionally 15:58 fragile and we're just surviving. 16:02 >>TY: David, I just read an article yesterday where the 16:05 author was analyzing our easy and immediate access to all the 16:11 horrible, evil things going on in the world. 16:14 >>DAVID: This thing I'm talking about. 16:15 >>TY: It's talking about the fact that 95% of all young 16:17 adults, anybody in their teens, 20s, 30s, it was saying visits a 16:23 news site of some kind and is on the internet a minimum of 20 16:31 times a day and they're just checking, checking, checking, so 16:34 you hear about everything that's going on in the world and the 16:36 article, the genius of the article is it was analyzing how 16:41 just the access to the information, which you can't 16:44 stop, is creating a sense that something has to be done that 16:50 has in it the potential for anarchy because people are not 16:58 trusting the system. 16:59 I mentioned this a minute ago, they're looking on and they're 17:01 saying, if you're not gonna deal with it, because we're not 17:05 equipped, we're not wired to handle all this information, 17:08 telling us this happened here, that happened there, this is 17:11 horrible, that's horrible, and there's this sense rising in 17:15 people, in fact, from the recent events in France, one article 17:19 said that this could throw France into civil war because 17:24 people on the streets are saying, enough, we're not gonna 17:27 tolerate this and the system is failing us. 17:30 The system isn't stopping this, so we're gonna take justice into 17:32 our own hands, hence the potential for anarchy. 17:35 >>JEFFREY: So, it's a vicious cycle, it's a crazy cycle, 17:37 right? 17:39 Because bad things are happening in the world, the response of 17:41 modernity is, let's make these things out in the open so that 17:47 everybody's aware that these bad things are happening, with the 17:50 incentive to arrive at some solution, let's shed light on 17:55 the darkness that's happening so that evil people don't get away 17:59 with their evil, right? 18:00 But in the process of making that accessible to the masses, 18:04 it's perpetuating the anarchy because now, more people, like 18:09 you said, are freaking out and becoming increasingly 18:12 distrustful of the system and so, now, they're perpetuating 18:16 the anarchy. 18:18 I would even say the sniper shootings that you opened with 18:19 in Dallas and all of that, you have to believe that that also 18:24 is motivated by people, as you say, being bombarded and 18:28 overwhelmed with all of the craziness happening in the 18:31 world, they're thinking, we have to do something about this. 18:33 It's a vicious cycle. 18:34 >>TY: And furthermore, on the downside of it, another 18:36 phenomenon is taking place and that is that it used to be that 18:40 the terrorists had to get together in a room and form 18:43 cells. 18:44 And they were members of a thing. 18:48 Now, most of the terrorist acts that we're witnessing are people 18:52 who have no actual connection to the terrorist organization, like 18:56 ISIS, they're just watching it all on the news, identifying, 18:59 and saying, I'll perform an act of terror on behalf of that 19:02 organization and they can claim it. 19:04 And so, just people out of nowhere, saying, hey, I'm a part 19:09 of that, I'll go ahead and act. 19:12 >>JAMES: You know, what's really powerful is that the book of 19:14 Revelation actually introduces a solution to all of this, which 19:18 is really unique in a sense, in society today because you were 19:21 talking about how people wanna take the law into their own 19:24 hands, anarchy is on the horizon, vigilantism is taking, 19:28 you know, hold of individuals who are shooting police officers 19:31 or shooting others, Revelation chapter one, as it introduces us 19:36 to the book of Revelation, here's an interesting verse, 19:38 let's see if you can get this out of the verse. 19:41 Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, and 19:44 they also which pierced him and all kindred's of the earth shall 19:48 wail because of him, even so, amen. 19:50 In other words, God has a day when, even those who pierced 19:55 Christ are gonna be held accountable for what they did. 19:58 Everyone's gonna be held to account. 20:00 Now, that doesn't mean that we just skip over justice and we 20:02 don't resist as we should, etcetera, etcetera, but it gives 20:04 us a perspective that is much larger than any government or 20:09 any individual can accomplish on this earth. 20:11 God actually has a day of accounts. 20:14 This verse repeated through Revelation chapter 6, verse 10, 20:17 repeated through Revelation chapter 11, verse 19, this verse 20:20 informs us that there is gonna be accountability and if we can 20:24 bring that message to those who are listening, if people can 20:27 understand that there is gonna be a day of accounts, that God 20:30 has that, and all through the book of Revelation's building to 20:32 that day, that can bring us a lot of assurance and peace. 20:35 >>TY: Excellent point. 20:37 WE have to push the pause button right there, and we'll take a 20:39 break and we'll just come right back and continue the 20:41 conversation. 20:43 [Music] 20:54 >>TY: So far, we've just noticed that in the book of 20:56 Revelation, there are features, there are patterns that show up, 21:01 we should point out that in this first of the 13 sessions, all 21:06 we're doing is looking at the book of Revelation in 21:10 introduction. 21:11 We're not dealing with the details, we haven't gotten into 21:13 the prophecies yet, we're essentially saying, what are 21:16 some of the prominent features of the book of Revelation? 21:21 And one of the ones that I've noticed, again, I'm just 21:25 throwing this out, and what do you guys think, is this there? 21:28 Is this not there? 21:30 I think that one of the things that's going on in the book is 21:32 that we're encountering John in the role of pastor, poet, and 21:40 prophet, all P's, just so it's easier to remember. 21:43 There's pastoral counsel, especially in the seven churches 21:47 prophecy where Jesus is, in fact, the pastor that's 21:49 pastoring John and pastoring us through John's counsel. 21:53 There's pastoral counsel, there's rebuke, there's 21:55 correction. 21:56 Secondly, the book itself is poetry. 22:00 It's written in a certain way in order to make certain points, 22:05 there are certain poetic patterns, and thirdly, it's 22:08 prophecy. 22:09 The book of Revelation foretells events in advance. 22:15 So, why don't we just explore and break down what we see going 22:21 on on the prophetic level. 22:24 When we say that the book of Revelation is a book of 22:27 prophecy, let's just be honest, that freaks people out. 22:31 In fact, I would say that it freaked me out when people said, 22:36 hey, future events foretold. 22:38 What is this, Nostradamus or what? 22:40 It's weird. 22:41 It's hokey. 22:42 There are people who will sit and watch this program and they 22:45 will be inclined to flip it off, just turn the thing off, I'm not 22:48 even watching that, because it just sounds weird that we 22:52 actually believe that this book, in a credible way, foretells 23:00 future events? 23:02 Is that hokey, is that strange? 23:04 >>JEFFREY: Can I just jump in and read from the first verse of 23:06 the book? 23:08 So, chapter 1, verse 1, it opens, it says, this kind of I 23:12 think, answers the question of the fear, this is creepy, 23:15 cryptic stuff, the unknown, the future, the revelation of Jesus 23:20 Christ, which God gave him to show his servants, things which 23:25 must shortly take place, and he sent and signified it by his 23:31 angel to his servant John. 23:34 So, just, the point there that, to me, is compelling is, number 23:38 one, yes, it's to predict things in the future, but it's the 23:42 revelation of Jesus Christ, so it's a person, right? 23:46 It's not these cryptic, strange, dark sayings with dragons and 23:51 beasts, I was gonna say, that's not the whole, the totality of 23:56 the point. 23:58 The point is, a person is being unfolded, the revelation of 24:03 Jesus Christ, and I think that when you look at it that way, it 24:07 puts the fear component into perspective. 24:10 >>JAMES: Yeah, let me add to that, Jeffrey, I think that's 24:11 good because it is a revelation of Jesus, but you know, most 24:14 scholars will argue, well, it's a revelation from Jesus. 24:17 And I think it's both. 24:18 I think it's a revelation of Jesus's revelation from Jesus, 24:21 but just to piggyback on what Jeffrey said, the dragon doesn't 24:25 show up in the book of Revelation until we get halfway 24:28 through the book. 24:29 The dragon doesn't show up until, this red guy right here, 24:32 with all of the horns and the claws and the biceps that are 24:35 way larger than David's, this guy does not show up until you 24:39 get halfway through the book. 24:40 So, you're making a valid point and this point, I think, is 24:43 really important for those who are interested in this book 24:46 perhaps, but scared of it. 24:48 The fact of the matter is, God has said, listen, don't be 24:51 scared of the book of Revelation because it's about Jesus. 24:53 He's gonna come first. 24:55 In fact, we're not even gonna get to the dragon until we get 24:58 halfway through the book because I really wanna saturate your 25:01 minds and hearts with yeah, pictures of the bad and the ugly 25:05 and the evil that's going on in the world, but in the context of 25:08 the fact that God has a plan, that God has a day of judgement, 25:11 that God is still in control, that things aren't so far gone 25:15 that there's still not a message of hope. 25:17 >>JEFFREY: So, I love what you said there. 25:19 In the three categories that you pose in the beginning, pastor, 25:22 poet, prophet, when you think of the book Revelation, or stop 25:26 anybody in the street and ask them about the book and gave 25:30 them these three categories, which one are they... 25:32 >>TY: Only number three. 25:33 >>JEFFREY: They're gonna point to, oh, prophet, right? 25:35 But if it begins in the way that it begins, really, the argument, 25:40 and you just said, really, the dragon doesn't show up 'til 25:42 halfway through the book. 25:43 Pastoral is the premise of the book. 25:46 The role of pastor, and by pastoral we mean, of course... 25:51 >>TY: Comfort, correction. 25:53 >>JAMES: Gospel, education. 25:54 >>DAVID: All of that is true, but verse one also says to show 25:59 his servants things which must shortly take place. 26:02 That's future. 26:03 >>JEFFREY: And that's the prophetic. 26:05 >>TY: And verse 3, verse 3, blessed is he who reads and 26:10 those who hear the words of this prophecy. 26:14 So, it is a book of prophet. 26:16 >>DAVID: The time is near. 26:17 It's not that the time is now, it's that the time is near. 26:20 >>JEFFREY: But the prophetic flows out of the personal and 26:22 pastoral. 26:23 >>DAVID: Of course it does. 26:24 >>JEFFREY: It's not the converse. 26:25 >>JAMES: Yeah, verse 4, grace and peace be unto you. 26:28 So, there's the pastoral again, grace and peace. 26:30 This sounds like something Paul's written. 26:32 >>DAVID: All of that's true. 26:34 So, I just wanna come back to Ty's question 'cause I feel 26:35 like, I feel like you didn't answer it. 26:37 >>TY: [Laughter] 26:38 >>DAVID: I liked what you said, but... 26:39 >>JEFFREY: You didn't get it, it was too deep. 26:40 >>DAVID: It was too deep for me, but the question that Ty was 26:42 saying is, is it not the case that a lot of people would 26:45 regard even the notion that an ancient book speaks not only to 26:49 modern times, but to future times as absurd and we have to 26:52 grant that that's the case. 26:53 In the world in which we live here, the modern world, we have 26:58 to grant that we can't just show up and say, well, the book of 27:00 Revelation says, full stop, end of story, a lot of people are 27:03 gonna be like, who cares what the book of Revelation says? 27:05 Now, I think our point would be, well, just give us an hour, give 27:09 us two, give us three, let's try to build a case and see if then 27:13 you say who cares. 27:14 And I think that's what we're gonna try to do in the program 27:17 is to say, hey, look, we recognize that people shouldn't 27:21 just be listening in, hey, hey, announcement, announcement, 27:23 we're studying the book of Revelation, everybody wants to 27:25 pay attention. 27:26 A lot of people are gonna be like. 27:27 >>TY: That's hokey. 27:28 >>DAVID: Who cares? 27:29 You might as well be studying the Iliad or the Odyssey or 27:30 Nostradamus, you know, what's the book of Revelation? 27:33 It's an ancient text. 27:34 >>JEFFREY: But there's still a direct appeal, I do agree with 27:36 that, but there is a direct appeal because a viewer or 27:40 somebody considering the subject, as we say, that many 27:43 people would be like, what's that all about? 27:45 It's not necessarily anybody who cares about God or religion or 27:49 the bible that should sit at the table, it's anybody who cares 27:53 about the world, right? 27:55 Because the text says things that will shortly take place. 27:58 Take place where? 27:59 Are we talking about some speck in the universe? 28:02 >>TY: Yeah, but what David is saying is, you think they should 28:05 care because you're beginning with the premise that you accept 28:08 the book as inspired, but there are people who are... 28:11 >>JEFFREY: Not at all. 28:12 >>DAVID: Not even inspired, but as credible. 28:16 >>JEFFREY: Not at all, not even that. 28:17 Look, you made a reference, the book of Revelation freaked me 28:21 out, too, and I think we would all say that. 28:23 It wasn't until I was 17 that I actually started paying 28:27 attention, but my point is simply whether you regard this 28:31 as credible, God, religion, or scripture, my point is, whether 28:36 or not somebody should care, I think, is whether or not an 28:41 individual cares about the world. 28:43 We consider things to look into them and to check them out. 28:47 Whether or not we initially find them credible. 28:50 >>DAVID: Give it two hours, give it three hours, hear me out. 28:52 >>JEFFREY: We're motivated not necessarily because everybody 28:55 has to care about God, but do you care about the world you 28:58 live in? 29:00 >>TY: Do you care about justice? 29:00 You could ask the question that way. 29:01 >>JEFFREY: Do you care about justice? 29:02 Do you care about your family? 29:03 Do you care about where this world is going? 29:05 Do you care about your future? 29:06 The future of your loved ones? 29:08 >>DAVID: But we are, just so we're clear, and I know that we 29:11 all know this, so what we would be saying to somebody is, we 29:13 think this book speaks to these issues, can you give us, let us 29:17 make the case. 29:19 Give us 13 hours. 29:20 [Laughter] 29:21 Hopefully, we will have made the case a little bit before 29:24 that, but in other words, that's what happened to me, I mean, I 29:26 was a 23 year old studying premed at the university and 29:30 somebody came to me and said, hey, can I show you, and it was 29:36 like, eh, okay. 29:39 And then, within, you know, a fairly short period, it was 29:41 like, oh. 29:42 Well, that's interesting, and your curiosity's peaked and 29:45 okay, okay, okay. 29:48 So, I think that, at this point, you've got the prophecy thing, 29:51 you've got the pastoral thing, you've got the prophetic thing, 29:53 but the draw of the book of Revelation for those that are 29:55 external to Christians, external to people that take scripture 29:59 seriously, it's gotta be the prophetic thing. 30:01 It's gotta be. 30:02 Alright, maybe, I guess some could appreciate it at a 30:04 scholarly level as poetry, but not really. 30:06 >>JEFFREY: It depends on what you mean by prophetic, because 30:08 to me, at least, my perspective, I wasn't like, oh, I really 30:11 wanna know the future. 30:13 Right? 30:14 It was more like, what in the world is going on? 30:15 >>DAVID: The point you made earlier. 30:17 >>JEFFREY: In the world. 30:19 I think there's a marriage between the prophetic and the 30:21 pastoral. 30:22 'Cause you said, what's the hook? 30:24 We can say prophetic, true, but I think there's a blur there 30:29 where the pastoral and the prophetic merge. 30:32 >>DAVID: Which is summarized in something that you said just a 30:33 moment ago, the idea that God has a plan. 30:36 That's the point, isn't it? 30:38 Right, you know, the title in that first session, which was 30:41 outstanding, I really loved that conversation, where it looks, 30:43 anarchy, vigilantism, it looks like the thing is spinning out 30:46 of control and I suppose that, in the minds of some, hey, if 30:50 you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the 30:52 problem, or I think our perspective would be, I know our 30:54 perspective would be, there's a bigger story that's going on 30:57 here. 30:58 There is a God, there is a big story, and this is following a 31:03 painful, circuitous, difficult trajectory. 31:06 This is going somewhere. 31:07 And at the end of the day, the book of Revelation is going 31:10 somewhere. 31:11 >>TY: But the book of Revelation isn't talking down to us and to 31:14 the human race and saying, hey, this is what's going to happen, 31:18 God's in control, he's got a plan, the book of Revelation 31:21 actually expresses the universal, kind of human angst 31:25 about the thing. 31:26 The book of Revelation is saying, well, okay, God, you 31:28 have a plan, could you hurry up? 31:31 It's crying out and saying we want things to be dealt with 31:35 100%. 31:37 >>DAVID: Well, I'm so glad you said that because in the break, 31:38 there was a text I was looking for, on that how long. 31:41 'Cause that's not just a Revelation thing. 31:43 Revelation 6, what'd you say, 10. 31:45 How long before you do something about this? 31:48 >>JAMES: And 11:18. 31:49 >>DAVID: This grows out of, this is a pregnant question 31:55 throughout scripture and I wanna read one of my favorite passages 31:57 to that effect, Psalm 94, oh, Lord, to whom belongs vengeance, 32:02 oh, God, to whom vengeance belongs, shine forth, rise up, 32:05 oh, judge of the earth, render punishment to the proud. 32:08 Lord, how long will the wicked, how long will the wicked 32:12 triumph? 32:13 Okay, now, that's the language of, you know, 3,000 years ago or 32:17 2500 years ago. 32:18 But that's the question a lot of people are asking today. 32:21 Okay, if there's a God, how many of us have heard this question, 32:24 we've heard it 1,000 times, if there's a God, why is the world 32:27 or why does this or why? 32:28 That's the question the psalmist is asking, that's the question 32:31 the book of Revelation is asking, or at least the martyrs 32:34 under, you know, that are there depicted in Revelation 6, how 32:36 long? 32:37 'Cause. 32:38 Can you show up at some point? 32:41 >>JEFFREY: That's brilliant, and I think that the reason 32:43 prophecy, I think, is so compelling is because it assumes 32:48 that God doesn't expect people to just accept things from thin 32:52 air, right? 32:53 John chapter 14, verse 29, Jesus says this in respect to things 32:59 that he knows but we don't know, he says, now I have told you 33:02 before it comes that when it does come to pass, you may 33:05 believe. 33:06 So, to me, Revelation is presenting a God that respects 33:11 our intellect, right? 33:13 Revelation is presenting a God who wants to engage people. 33:19 >>TY: And divulge. 33:20 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, who wants to engage people. 33:21 So, in other words, I'm not expected to just believe fairy 33:24 tales, I'm given tangible things to sink my teeth into before I 33:30 can say I believe, right? 33:33 And so, I think that that, at least for me at 17 years old, 33:36 that was compelling to say, oh, there are things happening. 33:40 This world is not spinning endlessly out of control. 33:44 God is, there's a bigger picture here and the reason we are told 33:48 that things must shortly come to pass is so that we can orient 33:52 ourselves in God's continuum, in God's story, to figure out, 33:56 where am I, what's going on, and where do I fit in? 33:59 >>JAMES: There's another thing that I think speaks to us today 34:02 in the book of Revelation, that's Revelation 1, verse 9 34:04 says here, I, John, who also am your brother and companion in 34:09 tribulation in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in 34:13 the Isle that's called Patmos for the word of God and for the 34:15 testimony of Jesus Christ. 34:16 John was part of a minority group of people living on planet 34:20 earth, a minority group of people that was being persecuted 34:22 for what they believed and how they lived. 34:24 He had, at first tradition says, been thrown into a hot vat of 34:28 oil. 34:30 He was gonna be boiled alive and, surviving that, he was cast 34:32 onto this island, just mistreated. 34:35 Human beings being mistreated today, human beings being 34:37 mistreated because of their religious persuasion, because 34:40 they don't have the might to protect themselves, because 34:42 they're in the minority because the rest of the world looks at 34:45 them cautiously or feels threatened by them. 34:48 So, John is speaking into the very atmosphere or the very 34:52 thing that is happening on planet earth today. 34:53 These are things that are taking place today. 34:55 This is not distant from us, this is not something that's 34:58 totally, wow, I can't relate to that. 35:00 The book of Revelation speaks to the very issues that we face 35:03 today as human beings. 35:05 >>TY: I think that something that fits really well with where 35:08 we're at now in the discussion is the fact that another feature 35:12 of Revelation is that the big question hanging, if you read 35:18 the text is not merely what's going on on planet earth and how 35:23 bad is it? 35:24 It's gonna escalate, it's going to compound, evil's going to 35:28 spin out of control, but the big question hanging in Revelation 35:32 is the character of God, because you remember that question? 35:36 >>DAVID: Which is implied in that how long? 35:38 >>TY: Yeah, the question, how long? 35:40 That question is directed to God. 35:43 What are you up to? 35:44 We would like this to happen a little faster. 35:47 >>JEFFREY: It's a questioning of motive. 35:48 >>TY: But check this out, so you go through the book, this is 35:52 another feature, another trait, another pattern in the book. 35:54 You go through the book of Revelation and you have that how 35:57 long question and then you have this very interesting idea that 36:04 God himself is under investigation because you have, 36:08 throughout the book you have heavenly witnesses and you have 36:12 voices, both in heaven and earth, that are commenting on 36:16 God. 36:18 Not so much on what's going on in the world until they finally 36:20 come to their conclusion and they come to their conclusion in 36:25 chapter 15 and what they say is, great and marvelous are your 36:29 works, Lord God Almighty, and check this out, just and true 36:34 are your ways, ways, that's a word for methods, principles. 36:40 >>DAVID: Your actions, the way that you do them. 36:42 >>TY: The way that you are, in the context. 36:44 >>JEFFREY: What was that text? 36:45 >>TY: Just chapter 15 and verses 3-4, but here's the thing, 36:50 Jeffrey, what you were bringing up before fits perfectly with 36:53 this point because what's happening here in this text is 37:00 that there's a point of resolve, and it's not just resolve in the 37:03 sense that God flexes muscle and might, he doesn't out monster 37:08 the monsters. 37:09 >>DAVID: Oh, come on. 37:10 >>TY: What happens is that God has different ways, different 37:13 methodologies, different principles that he's operating 37:16 by and what kinds of ways are those? 37:18 According to this text, they are just and true ways. 37:22 There are ways, God's ways are ways of justice and truth and 37:26 because of that, this fits with something David was bringing out 37:32 in this scripture in Psalm, how long, adding to the how long in 37:35 Revelation and that is that it takes some time when you don't 37:41 use certain kinds of methods that are more rapid. 37:44 God could just execute everybody, that would be a 37:48 method, that would be a way of resolving evil, but there are 37:52 other ways. 37:54 Rather than using force, what we see taking place, God is using 37:59 the disclosure of truth in real time in history, God is showing 38:05 things. 38:06 He's the, he's revealing things so that people can process and 38:10 pass judgement and the final judgement is... 38:13 >>JEFFREY: Just and true. 38:14 >>TY: ...just and true. 38:15 The way you resolve evil, it was brilliant. 38:20 We're really glad you used that way, your ways and not our ways 38:24 because if it was left up to me, I'd just pull the plug. 38:27 >>JAMES: Which reminds us of the verse in Philippians 2. 38:31 In Philippians 2, it talks about the way God dealt with evil, 38:34 which directs us to the cross, it directs us to God becoming a 38:37 human being, one who was equal with God emptying himself and 38:40 becoming one with us and at the end of this outline of these 7 38:44 steps of humiliation, which ends with the death on the cross, it 38:48 says every knee bows and every tongue confesses, same thing. 38:51 Yeah. 38:52 >>DAVID: One of the questions, sort of the buzz questions 38:55 that's been happening in the political debate here in the 38:58 United States, getting ready in the run-up for the presidential 39:01 election, I don't know if you've caught onto this, but they ask a 39:03 number of candidates over the last year, you know, if you 39:06 could go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler? 39:09 Have you heard this before, they're like asking candidates 39:11 this. 39:13 Would you kill baby Hitler if that was something that was 39:14 available to you? 39:15 It's a classic does the end justify the means question, 39:17 right? 39:18 I didn't know this question was being asked particularly, so my 39:20 son asked me, because they had a conversation about him, my 15 39:23 year old boy. 39:24 They'd had a conversation about it in his class. 39:26 He said, dad, hey, what do you think? 39:28 If you could go back, putting, you know, on me, would you go? 39:30 And you know what my response was? 39:32 God didn't. 39:35 >>TY: He could've and he didn't. 39:37 >>DAVID: Of course he could've. 39:38 >>TY: And he didn't. 39:39 >>DAVID: The resources of omnipotence at his disposal, he 39:41 could've done any such thing, you know, you used the point 39:44 that, total eradication. 39:46 Well, that's a really good way to get rid of the evil. 39:48 You've got termites in your house or ants, hey, let's burn 39:50 the house down, then we don't have any ants. 39:54 I mean, that is a possibility, but what we see in Revelation is 39:57 not force. 39:59 I love the way that you said that, Ty, and I'm gonna tweet 40:00 that later, God does not out monster the monsters. 40:03 He doesn't out violence the violent. 40:06 It's disclosure. 40:08 It's disclosure of truth, it's disclosure of love, it's 40:12 disclosure, as James said, of the incarnation and of God 40:15 becoming vulnerable, which is why the classic symbol of God in 40:19 the text of Revelation is a lamb. 40:23 And not just a lamb, which is already sufficiently vulnerable, 40:26 innocent, weak, a lamb as if it had been slain. 40:32 So, this disclosure of truth and of love ultimately ends up 40:35 reflecting on a disclosure of who God is. 40:39 >>JAMES: Thirty seconds, there's something even deeper here or 40:41 bigger than that, because this is the real issue, in Job 40, 40:46 the same question is asked of Job. 40:49 Do you think that you can handle evil better than me, God says, 40:53 basically. 40:54 Well, go ahead and destroy everyone. 40:56 Wipe out all the wicked, wipe out all the evil, kill all the 40:58 murderers, kill all the liars, and then, I will confess that 41:01 you can save yourself. 41:02 Because where do we stop? 41:04 Where do we, if it wouldn't have been Hitler, would those 41:07 atrocities have happened? 41:09 >>JEFFREY: Anybody who says, I wish God would destroy all evil, 41:11 that's great until you realize that some of the things that God 41:15 deems evil, you yourself would not deem evil. 41:18 >>JAMES: It's like David said, if you're gonna take out all the 41:21 ants by destroying the house, you're gonna destroy everything. 41:23 You're gonna have to take out everything. 41:25 And that's what Job chapter 40 is all about. 41:26 >>TY: Man, I hate to be the party pooper here, but we have 41:28 to stop right there and have another break. 41:30 One more break, we come back and then we can say everything 41:32 that's on our hearts for the final session. 41:34 [Music] 41:39 >>TY: This has been a really fun discussion, we just have one 41:41 segment left, but during the break, we were fleshing out some 41:44 stuff that was pretty fascinating because the fact is, 41:47 we've raised a question, a really significant question 41:51 that, in technical language, is sometimes called the question of 41:53 theodicy. 41:55 The question of theodicy is the justice of God in the face of 41:58 evil. 42:00 So, you got all kinds of horrific stuff going on in the 42:01 world, where is God in all of this? 42:05 And David, you brought up a question that's being asked, 42:07 leading up to the election, actual candidates are being 42:11 asked this question, what is that question? 42:13 >>DAVID: The question is, would you, if you could, kill baby 42:16 Hitler. 42:17 In other words, the idea is, is there a, and therefore, avoid 42:20 the Holocaust? 42:21 >>TY: Yeah. 42:22 >>DAVID: Circumvent the Holocaust, all those people get 42:23 to live, everything's fine. 42:24 Would you do it if you, the nurses walk out of the room, the 42:26 doctors walk out of the room, it's you. 42:28 >>TY: And you know the Holocaust was going to come if the baby 42:29 lived, would you kill baby Hitler >>DAVID: And they're 42:32 asking this of candidates and some are saying yes, some are 42:34 saying I don't know. 42:35 I'm not following who has said what. 42:37 >>JEFFREY: In their view, they may agree or disagree with yes 42:39 or no, and I think the point of Revelation is that, it's a good 42:41 thing that these judgement calls are left, ultimately, in the 42:46 hands of God, right? 42:47 >>TY: But I like the answer that David, during the break, I want 42:51 you to bring this up, because I like the answer you gave, your 42:53 son, Landon, I think it was, actually asked you the question, 42:57 dad, would you? 42:58 And your answer was? 43:00 >>DAVID: That God didn't. 43:01 >>TY: God could've killed baby Hitler and God didn't. 43:04 So... 43:06 >>DAVID: How do we occupy a moral ground that's higher than 43:09 the moral ground that God occupied? 43:11 Right? 43:12 I mean, that's... 43:13 >>TY: That's the question. 43:14 >>DAVID: I think that's what you ended with in Job 40 there, are 43:15 you gonna be more righteous than God? 43:17 Okay, let's do this, Job, that you're gonna find out that that 43:20 extirpation of evil, the eradication of evil, that shows 43:24 up at your door. 43:25 >>JAMES: Yeah, and the implication there in Job is that 43:28 you get rid of that one but then there's another one and there's 43:31 another one and there's another one. 43:32 You get rid of the antiluvians, is that the end of the whole 43:34 thing? 43:34 Think about the antiluvians. 43:36 God, the entire race is gone except for 8 people. 43:38 So, why did we, where did evil come? 43:41 If those people were all God's people and they're all safe, why 43:44 didn't any more evil come? 43:45 So, we're suggesting... 43:47 >>TY: Because Noah was in the mix. 43:49 >>JAMES: We're suggesting that if you get rid of this guy, 43:50 that's not gonna happen. 43:52 That's a conclusion that can't be proven. 43:54 >>DAVID: So, back to the session, before the first 43:55 session, I said that the modern situation that we find ourselves 43:58 in is the radical depersonalization of evil, that 44:01 evil is just a consequence of, and if you can get rid of, oh, 44:05 and then this one, and then this one, but the book of Revelation 44:07 says, uh-uh, there's this ancient serpent called the devil 44:10 of old. 44:11 Satan, that there is a personal, there is a personal, an 44:16 originator, inventor, if you will, of evil, that is 44:20 interacting and moving through, so you get this idea that if 44:26 it's not Hitler, then it's, and if it's not, then it's, then 44:29 it's, then it's. 44:31 >>JEFFREY: But the danger with that would be, it could lead to 44:33 social ambivalence. 44:35 >>DAVID: I get that, I hear that. 44:36 >>TY: Meaning what? 44:37 >>JAMES: It doesn't matter, it's gonna happen anyway. 44:38 >>JEFFREY: It doesn't matter what we do in X situation of 44:40 manifestation of evil in the world because if we were to seek 44:44 to find a solution to that, something else would sprout up, 44:47 something else, something else, so, therefore, let's not do 44:49 anything. 44:50 >>DAVID: Okay, I agree with that, but the question here is 44:53 that human beings, okay, so, it reminds me of when Jesus said, 44:56 hey look, you will always have the poor with you, but right 44:59 now, I'm here and so, have a good time. 45:01 Like, I've wrestled with that, you know, I'm here, celebrate 45:04 the Son of Man is here, I've wrestled with that because Jesus 45:06 is basically, that's almost a resignation, when Jesus says, 45:10 you will always have the poor with you. 45:11 In other words, doesn't that kind of create a kind of social 45:14 ambivalence? 45:15 Hey, you can't get rid of poverty, this will always be the 45:18 case. 45:18 And I've wrestled with that. 45:20 I don't think that anything that we could do could get rid of 45:23 violence, could get rid of terrorism, could get rid of 45:25 evil. 45:27 That's your point about out monstering the monster. 45:29 So, there is a utilitarian way, in the meantime, we have to deal 45:32 with murderous people that drive trucks, we have to deal with 45:34 that. 45:35 But that's not God's methodology and we shouldn't think for a 45:39 moment that we're gonna be like, hey, God, we'll show you how you 45:42 should've sorted this thing out. 45:44 >>TY: Would anybody at this table kill the baby Hitler? 45:48 >>TY: Would anybody at this table kill the baby Hitler? 45:50 Would anybody at this table kill, you've got him in your 45:52 sights, you've got a rifle, would you kill the adult Hitler? 45:55 >>JEFFREY: I cannot say that I would not kill the adult Hitler. 45:57 >>TY: I can't either, I don't know what I would do in that 45:59 instance. 46:00 >>JEFFREY: I cannot say that I would not kill the adult Hitler. 46:02 >>TY: You have a microphone in one hand, you have a gun in the 46:05 other hand, you can preach a sermon to Hitler or you can 46:07 shoot. 46:08 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the same scenario, 46:10 for those of you who are familiar with that story. 46:13 >>DAVID: Lutheran theologian. 46:14 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, WWII, minister, is given the opportunity to 46:17 participate in the assassination of Hitler and so forth and he 46:20 wrestles, he wrestles, he wrestles, and he finally signs 46:24 off on it. 46:25 Clearly, it wasn't successful, but I'm just saying, I'm not 46:30 prepared to say I would not go through with it. 46:32 >>DAVID: And anybody's who's read any of Bonhoeffer's 46:33 writings would know that he believed scripture, he took God 46:37 very seriously. 46:38 One of his great books, The Cost of Discipleship. 46:40 In other words, the point here is that he was a man of God, he 46:42 lost his life eventually in a concentration camp. 46:45 >>JEFFREY: He struggled though. 46:46 >>DAVID: That's my point, he wrestled. 46:48 We shouldn't pretend that it's just like, oh, yeah, that's 46:50 easy, that's my point about resignation, I don't know if you 46:52 get that. 46:53 >>JEFFREY: Well, but the passage you went with, I think that's a 46:55 great point about the passage, Jesus himself speaking, the 46:59 poor, you will always have with you. 47:00 But I feel like you're only allowed to say those kinds of 47:04 statements if your entire life is characterized by ministry and 47:10 by reaching out to the very people that he's identifying. 47:13 You can only say that if that is the mission of your life, look 47:16 at Jesus, look at the page, look at it. 47:18 >>DAVID: Otherwise it creates a social apathy. 47:19 >>JEFFREY: Therefore, only the people who are actively involved 47:22 in making the world a better place can actually speak to that 47:26 sort of thing. 47:28 Otherwise, we are being socially ambivalent as Christians, 47:30 waiting for heaven to do what we have been given the 47:34 responsibility to do. 47:35 >>JAMES: Let's clarify that in the character of God. 47:37 Because we just said here, God didn't, God didn't, God didn't, 47:39 but God will, God will, God will, so we can allow God to not 47:44 destroy baby Hitler or etcetera, etcetera, only because we know 47:48 that ultimately, God will take care. 47:50 He will bring justice to everything. 47:51 There will be justice. 47:52 God will. 47:53 Just like we said that Jesus is the one that's dedicated to 47:56 helping the poor, so he can say that without being ambivalent, 47:58 so we can say that Jesus is saying, justice is mine, I 48:02 revenge, says the Lord. 48:03 And I do think, though, there's a place for resistance of evil. 48:07 And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about 48:09 Bonhoeffer, that's what we're talking about when we're talking 48:11 about the Lord's Prayer. 48:13 >>TY: Wait a minute, when you say resistance of evil, I find 48:17 it interesting, personally, that Jesus is the ultimate example of 48:21 resistance of evil. 48:23 And I don't know if you've seen this or not, I think it's there 48:28 in the text, I'm not totally sure, but I'm almost certain 48:32 that in the sermon on the mount, Jesus is teaching resistance of 48:35 evil, but he's teaching resistance of evil by a certain 48:40 methodology, by a certain way. 48:42 Jesus is teaching resistance of evil with good. 48:46 He's saying, if somebody says, you know, carry my pack, if a 48:51 Roman soldier who was regarded as the enemy of the Israelites, 48:55 and Jesus is teaching Jews at this time, if the Roman soldier 48:59 that you hate says carry my pack one mile, carry it two miles, go 49:05 the extra mile. 49:06 >>JAMES: If he hits you on the right cheek... 49:08 >>TY: If he hits you on the right cheek, turn the other 49:09 cheek. 49:10 Jesus isn't saying, be humiliated and hold your head 49:15 down and put your tail between your legs, Jesus is saying, hold 49:18 your shoulders up and be bigger and stronger than the enemy by 49:24 resisting evil in a way that is superior to the principles that 49:31 are being operated on by the enemy. 49:34 That's resistance of evil. 49:35 >>DAVID: Martin Luther King, Junior, in the nonviolent, the 49:37 civil rights movement. 49:39 On this point, I think it's very important and I just wanna throw 49:43 this out there, when it comes down to Matthew chapter 25, and 49:46 I know this is a series on Revelation, but just very 49:48 quickly, when the separation is finally made between the saved 49:51 and the lost, the sheep and the goats, the righteous and the 49:54 wicked, it's on the grounds that I was naked and you clothed me, 49:57 I was hungry and you fed me, I was in prison and you visited 50:00 me, etcetera. 50:01 So, clearly there is a strong social imperative. 50:06 And it's not just a social imperative in terms of social 50:08 policy, but a strong neighborly, brotherly, good Samaritan 50:11 perspective where evil, and it's not just in the form of baby 50:14 Hitler, but poverty is to be resisted, aggressively, actively 50:18 resisted. 50:20 So, Jesus clearly wasn't...my point here is tying these 50:21 together. 50:23 He wasn't saying, hey, look, you're always gonna have the 50:24 poor with you, so just, it's just gonna be that way. 50:26 A karmic resignation. 50:28 It was like, hey, this is a really terrible thing, war 50:30 against it, war against it. 50:32 And I think Ty's point is, and correct me if I get you wrong 50:35 here, Ty, we can also war against evil that manifests 50:38 itself in the violent way, in the Hitler-esque way, in the 50:41 terrorist way, but the war that we wage is not like 50:45 [shotgun loading sound] for me, it's not that. 50:49 Nations are gonna rise against nations, and there's gonna be 50:51 wars and rumors of wars, that is the condition that the world is 50:54 gonna be in, but Jesus showed a better way, he showed a bigger 50:58 way, and he succumbs to evil, right? 51:02 That's the Philippians thing that you were talking about, 51:03 submits himself, not just to any ordinary death, not just, you 51:06 know, dying in his sleep, the death of a cross, which is a 51:08 cruel instrument of torture. 51:11 He's, in what sense, why is God hanging on a Roman instrument of 51:16 torture? 51:18 He is subjecting himself to evil, and here is the great plot 51:21 twist, the great irony of the gospel, and thereby overcoming 51:24 it. 51:25 >>TY: That's right. 51:27 That's why, he said, himself, in his teachings, his exact words, 51:31 resist not evil. 51:33 I think that the sermon on the mount, what Jesus taught on the 51:37 sermon on the mount is the most difficult, most challenging 51:41 thing that has ever been told to human beings. 51:44 >>DAVID: Agree. 51:45 >>TY: Break the cycle of violence, break the cycle of 51:48 evil by not being toward others the way they are toward you. 51:52 Personally for me, the most difficult theological struggle 51:59 I've ever had, the most difficult philosophical, the 52:01 most difficult struggle I've ever gone through on trying to 52:06 understand and figure something out is this question of how do 52:09 you deal with the evil in the world? 52:12 I'll just say that, for me, one of the things that's been 52:15 helpful is that in scripture, there is a sharp segregation 52:20 that God has made between the civil power and the religious 52:24 power. 52:26 And he said, I'm gonna establish a church and it is not to have a 52:30 military. 52:31 It is not to have police officers, the church is not to 52:34 exercise violence, the church is going to be... 52:37 >>DAVID: That's where the Gentiles operate, he said. 52:38 >>TY: Yeah, the church is going to be a light on the hill, it's 52:41 going to be a light to the nations, it's going to show a 52:44 different social system in the bigger social system that God 52:48 tolerates. 52:49 >>DAVID: Just sitting on a hill. 52:50 >>TY: Yeah. 52:52 God tolerates the civil system as a necessary evil, but make no 52:54 mistake about it, it's evil. 52:57 It's evil, it's wrong. 52:58 It's fundamentally wrong on every level. 53:02 >>JEFFREY: What do you mean by necessary evil? 53:04 >>DAVID: Otherwise, there's total anarchy, you have to have 53:06 some governmental thing. 53:07 >>TY: The civil system is where Paul is saying that, you know, 53:10 his words aren't these exact words, but this is my 53:13 translation, I guess, 'cause I can't think of the exact words, 53:15 where he says, basically, the police force doesn't bear the 53:18 sword in vain. 53:19 Do you remember? 53:20 Okay, yeah, so he's saying, there is a civil system and that 53:25 civil system is ordained of God. 53:27 That civil system is an accommodation of God. 53:32 It's not the highest ideal. 53:34 What is God's highest ideal? 53:35 No violence at all, no crime at all, no murder at all, nothing 53:38 horrible at all going on in the world. 53:40 >>JAMES: So, it's not wrong in every facet of it. 53:42 In other words, God is utilizing it, it is ordained of God, there 53:45 is something, the respect we need to give, we need to pay 53:47 taxes to them and taxes there, we need to recognize they don't 53:49 bear the sword in vain. 53:50 But it's not the ultimate. 53:52 >>TY: Yeah, it's the same way, Paul got that idea, I think, 53:55 from the Old Testament. 53:56 Where God is ordaining, same exact language is used in the 54:00 Old Testament, God is ordaining wicked Babylon to punish Israel. 54:05 >>DAVID: Godly Israel. 54:06 >>TY: And then God turns around. 54:08 >>DAVID: That's why I was saying godly. 54:09 >>TY: Then, God turns around and says, I'm gonna punish you, 54:14 Babylon, for what you just did to Israel, but I just, two steps 54:16 ago, I was saying, I'm using them to punish you but now 54:19 you're in trouble for what you just did that I used... 54:22 >>DAVID: I got it. 54:23 >>TY: It's a system that is fundamentally flawed. 54:26 >>JAMES: Did you get it? 54:28 >>DAVID: So, check this out, at the end of the day, we're 54:30 talking about governance here, that's what you're talking 54:32 about. 54:33 Governance. 54:34 Governance is an accommodation, which is why, and I mentioned 54:35 this just briefly, we went by it, but when we come to the book 54:39 of Revelation, the quintessential, ultimate 54:42 manifestation of God in governance, as a governor, he's 54:47 sitting on a throne. 54:48 I'll just read it here, Revelation chapter 5, we'll get 54:49 there eventually in detail. 54:51 I looked and behold, in the midst of the throne, what's a 54:55 throne for? 54:56 A throne is for ruling, a throne is for governance, where a king 54:58 sits, it's where royalty sits, and of the four living 55:01 creatures, in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb. 55:04 Capital L, Lamb. 55:05 >>TY: Isn't this amazing? 55:06 >>DAVID: And lo, it had been slain. 55:08 >>JEFFREY: The ultimate contradiction. 55:10 >>DAVID: So, this goes back to what you said in Revelation 15, 55:11 thy ways, your ways are just and true. 55:15 This communicates that God, as a Lamb, as a slain Lamb in the 55:20 person of Jesus, that belongs to the way... 55:23 >>TY: God governs. 55:24 >>DAVID: God governs. 55:25 He, to me, this is just like, that is the book of Revelation. 55:30 Who's on the Lamb? 55:31 It's a slain Lamb. 55:32 And it wasn't some nice, neat, dying in his sleep, it's a Roman 55:35 instrument of torture. 55:37 He submits himself to evil and thereby, overcomes it. 55:39 It's a total transmutation, upending of reality as we know 55:44 it. 55:45 And I think our point here, and there's a lot of points that 55:46 we've made is that, it will never be the case that somebody 55:49 will make a weapon big enough. 55:51 I'll tell you a very interesting story, when the Gatling gun was 55:53 first invented, the Gatling gun. 55:54 >>JEFFREY: War to end all wars. 55:56 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's right, the Winchester and others came and 55:58 were like, hey, you can't make this, this'll make war all the 56:00 more terrible. 56:03 It'll be too easy to kill people, to which Gatling 56:04 responded and said, no, this weapon will make war impossible. 56:08 I.E. the idea that death would become so easy, so, that people 56:12 would be like, oh, well, we can't do that anymore, 56:15 let's make peace. 56:16 >>JEFFREY: I think he was kinda wrong. 56:17 >>DAVID: Ya reckon? 56:18 >>TY: Kinda majorly wrong, yeah. 56:20 >>JEFFREY: Slight miscalculation. 56:21 >>DAVID: But the book of Revelation represents God in 56:23 control. 56:25 You have the pastoral element, you have the poetic element, you 56:27 have the prophetic element, but God wins, God wins by 56:33 disclosure, he wins in a way that is himself becoming subject 56:38 to evil and then, overcoming it on another level. 56:41 Not out monstering the monsters. 56:43 >>JAMES: And David, that is Revelation 1, verse 7. 56:45 See, that is the whole point. 56:47 In Revelation 1, verse 7, you have all the earth mourning that 56:50 pierced him. 56:52 You have the cross, you have the submission, you have Christ 56:56 overcoming evil, God overcoming evil, and then, you have 56:59 accountability, you have justice taking place and so, Revelation 57:02 5 impacts all of that, Revelation 6, 7, 8, all of the 57:05 chapters of Revelation unpack verse 7, but God can't wait 'til 57:08 we get to chapter 2 or chapter 3 or chapter 4 or chapter 5, he 57:11 introduces it right at the very beginning. 57:14 He's laying down the principles, he's laying down the 57:16 foundations. 57:17 He's talking about the cross and he's talking about justice, he's 57:19 equalizing the ground, he's telling the world right now, if 57:22 they don't get past verse 7, they've at least got the idea in 57:25 their brain. 57:26 >>JEFFREY: I was thinking of verse 9, actually, I, John, both 57:27 your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and 57:31 patience of Jesus Christ, am on the Island of Patmos. 57:35 In other words, the way, you've been describing the way God 57:37 deals with evil and the implication here is, I, John, am 57:42 experiencing the tribulation of Jesus Christ. 57:45 In other words, there's a union between, this is what Jesus went 57:48 through and how he responded, and now, I, John, am in the same 57:53 position. 57:54 So, I guess I'm trying to say the implication... 57:56 >>DAVID: Of persecution. 57:57 >>JEFFREY: Of persecution, the implication is that the church 57:59 now postures itself in the same way Christ did in relation to 58:04 evil. 58:05 >>DAVID: As subject to evil empires. 58:07 >>JEFFREY: Yeah. 58:08 >>TY: Okay, we have one minute left, one minute left. 58:09 In a sentence, what is the book of Revelation about, James? 58:14 >>JAMES: Well, Revelation is about a God who has been, is, 58:16 and will always be with us through our suffering, through 58:19 our pain, through our evil, he's there. 58:20 He senses it, he feels it, and the cross tells us that and the 58:23 cross also tells us that there's gonna be a victory and there's 58:25 gonna be a day of accounting. 58:27 >>TY: Jeffrey, in a sentence, what is the book of Revelation 58:29 about? 58:30 >>JEFFREY: It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. 58:31 It's not just a mystic visions, it's about a person that unfolds 58:35 in history. 58:36 >>TY: That was two sentences, I gave you one. 58:37 David, one sentence. 58:39 >>DAVID: The book of Revelation is about God's ultimate triumph 58:41 over evil and the execution of his plan for truth and love to 58:45 prosper. 58:46 >>TY: Praise God. 58:48 My closing sentence, the book of Revelation is a disclosure of 58:52 how God conquers evil, finally and fully so that it will never, 58:57 ever raise its ugly head again through all the eternal ages 59:02 future. 59:03 This has been a great discussion. 59:05 >>DAVID: I've loved it. 59:05 [Music] 59:08 >>DAVID: I've loved it. 59:09 [Music] |
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