[Music] 00:00:00.26\00:00:00.50 [Music] 00:00:00.56\00:00:10.54 [Music] 00:00:10.54\00:00:21.48 >>TY: Now, this is gonna be really fun. 00:00:21.48\00:00:22.65 We're about to launch into season four of Table Talk, and 00:00:22.65\00:00:26.45 we've chosen a subject which, for some people, would be 00:00:26.45\00:00:29.92 regarded as a fool's errand, the Revelation, which some people 00:00:29.92\00:00:34.96 regard as the concealment. 00:00:34.96\00:00:37.23 The world is full of people who say, you can't understand that 00:00:37.23\00:00:39.77 book. 00:00:39.77\00:00:40.47 Don't even tackle it. 00:00:40.47\00:00:41.64 It's full of symbols. 00:00:41.64\00:00:43.61 Nobody knows what it means, but is the book mistitled? 00:00:43.61\00:00:48.41 Should it have a different name? 00:00:48.41\00:00:49.98 I mean, God inspired the book, and it's called the Revelation, 00:00:49.98\00:00:55.58 so it seems like we should expect to actually understand 00:00:55.58\00:01:00.09 what the book teaches. 00:01:00.09\00:01:03.19 Are you guys up for this? 00:01:03.19\00:01:05.73 >>JAMES: Absolutely. 00:01:05.73\00:01:06.46 >>TY: Are you game? 00:01:06.46\00:01:07.36 >>DAVID: I know that James is fired up. 00:01:07.36\00:01:08.36 Yeah, I'm ready for it, I'm excited. 00:01:08.36\00:01:10.93 >>TY: Are you? 00:01:10.93\00:01:11.53 >>DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:11.53\00:01:12.37 >>TY: There's amazing material here. 00:01:12.37\00:01:13.54 >>JAMES: What about Jeffrey, I didn't hear anything from 00:01:13.54\00:01:14.47 Jeffrey. 00:01:14.47\00:01:15.57 >>DAVID: Yeah, he was suspiciously quiet, wasn't he? 00:01:15.57\00:01:16.67 I think we need to get him going. 00:01:16.67\00:01:18.04 >>JEFFREY: I'm staring at the title, the Revelation of Jesus 00:01:18.04\00:01:19.24 Christ. 00:01:19.24\00:01:19.91 I'm just letting that sink in. 00:01:19.91\00:01:21.21 >>DAVID: So, to answer the question, are you excited about 00:01:21.21\00:01:23.21 it? 00:01:23.21\00:01:24.11 >>JEFFREY: Something is being revealed. 00:01:24.11\00:01:25.05 >>DAVID: Something is being revealed, okay. 00:01:25.05\00:01:26.25 >>JEFFREY: See, this is the first time I've read that title. 00:01:26.25\00:01:26.65 It's amazing. 00:01:26.65\00:01:27.88 >>TY: Well, I wanna begin each of our sessions together, of the 00:01:27.88\00:01:32.15 13, through the book of Revelation with a question that 00:01:32.15\00:01:35.96 may seem unrelated, but related, so, here's the first question 00:01:35.96\00:01:41.36 and maybe we'll come back to it toward the end. 00:01:41.36\00:01:44.33 If you could, right now, snap your fingers and change any one 00:01:44.33\00:01:47.80 of your physical traits, what would it be? 00:01:47.80\00:01:51.14 >>JEFFREY: Wrists. 00:01:51.14\00:01:52.11 >>TY: Wrists? 00:01:52.11\00:01:52.94 Do you have weak wrists? 00:01:52.94\00:01:53.94 >>JEFFREY: Wimpy wrists. 00:01:53.94\00:01:55.14 >>DAVID: You'd have big strong wrists. 00:01:55.14\00:01:56.08 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, just big, buff ones. 00:01:56.08\00:01:58.51 >>TY: James, David. 00:01:58.51\00:02:01.45 James, David. 00:02:01.45\00:02:02.25 >>DAVID: I would have better posture. 00:02:02.25\00:02:03.32 I would want perfectly erect, straight up posture. 00:02:03.32\00:02:05.72 >>TY: I didn't know you'd say that, I had one in mind for you. 00:02:05.72\00:02:06.99 Just 'cause I know you. 00:02:06.99\00:02:09.12 I thought you were gonna say, you wish you could grow a full 00:02:09.12\00:02:10.89 beard. 00:02:10.89\00:02:11.99 >>DAVID: I take it back, I take the posture thing back. 00:02:11.99\00:02:13.83 [Laughter] 00:02:13.83\00:02:16.06 >>TY: James. 00:02:16.06\00:02:16.90 >>JAMES: I'd actually like to be taller. 00:02:16.90\00:02:17.90 I'd like to be 6'4". 00:02:17.90\00:02:19.53 >>TY: Six four? 00:02:19.53\00:02:21.20 >>JAMES: Yeah, I'd like 6'4". 00:02:21.20\00:02:22.10 >>TY: What are you, 5'8"? 00:02:22.10\00:02:23.91 >>JAMES: Yeah, 5'8 1/2". 00:02:23.91\00:02:25.04 Just a half inch taller than you, just barely. 00:02:25.04\00:02:28.44 >>DAVID: Let me tell you something, I just read a report, 00:02:28.44\00:02:29.64 statistically, people that are tall, over 6 foot, live less 00:02:29.64\00:02:33.45 long than people who are shorter. 00:02:33.45\00:02:34.88 >>JAMES: Unless they're basketball players. 00:02:34.88\00:02:36.35 >>TY: I read that years ago. 00:02:36.35\00:02:37.32 >>JAMES: I.E. 00:02:37.32\00:02:39.49 Wilt Chamberlain. 00:02:39.49\00:02:40.46 >>DAVID: No, he died very young, he died young. 00:02:40.46\00:02:43.89 You're thinking Bill Russell. 00:02:43.89\00:02:44.96 >>JAMES: Bill Russell, that's who I'm thinking of. 00:02:44.96\00:02:46.19 >>DAVID: Let me help you with your statistics. 00:02:46.19\00:02:47.96 >>TY: Well, somebody asked me that recently. 00:02:47.96\00:02:50.23 >>DAVID: If you could change one... 00:02:50.23\00:02:51.37 >>TY: Yeah. 00:02:51.37\00:02:52.20 >>JAMES: What is your thing? 00:02:52.20\00:02:53.07 >>TY: My think would be lung capacity. 00:02:53.07\00:02:54.60 >>JAMES: Really? 00:02:54.60\00:02:55.27 >>TY: Yeah. 00:02:55.27\00:02:56.24 >>DAVID: That's not a physical characteristic. 00:02:56.24\00:02:57.01 >>TY: Are your lungs not physical? 00:02:57.01\00:02:58.31 >>DAVID: Well, if we could change that, then I would... 00:02:58.31\00:03:00.34 >>TY: I would love to be able to process, take in, larger amounts 00:03:00.34\00:03:05.38 of oxygen and process it so well that my resting heart rate would 00:03:05.38\00:03:08.45 be about 40. 00:03:08.45\00:03:10.22 What's your resting heart rate, David? 00:03:10.22\00:03:11.82 Do you know? 00:03:11.82\00:03:13.02 >>DAVID: It's low, it's low, it's under 50, it's like 45, 46. 00:03:13.02\00:03:14.06 >>JAMES: Really? 00:03:14.06\00:03:16.69 >>TY: Okay, so the book of Revelation. 00:03:16.69\00:03:19.03 >>DAVID: Yeah, let's get back to that. 00:03:19.03\00:03:20.13 >>TY: The book of Revelation has traits, it has actually 00:03:20.13\00:03:25.67 features. 00:03:25.67\00:03:26.57 >>DAVID: That's a good tie in, I like that. 00:03:26.57\00:03:27.74 >>TY: Yeah, it has actual features, there are things about 00:03:27.74\00:03:31.47 it that are consistent patterns that show up over and over again 00:03:31.47\00:03:35.51 and let's look at that, but right now, I think that it's 00:03:35.51\00:03:39.41 appropriate to pause and to sympathize and to just express 00:03:39.41\00:03:45.69 our solidarity with the chaos and the craziness and the pain 00:03:45.69\00:03:49.96 of the world around us. 00:03:49.96\00:03:51.53 Today, as we begin filming this series on Revelation is, what is 00:03:51.53\00:03:56.56 it, July 18th. 00:03:56.56\00:03:58.27 Just yesterday, as we get together to do this, the world 00:03:58.27\00:04:02.44 right now is reeling because just yesterday, in Baton Rouge, 00:04:02.44\00:04:05.81 3 more police officers shot dead in an ambush, 3 injured. 00:04:05.81\00:04:11.81 That's just yesterday, and you trace this thing back, just in 00:04:11.81\00:04:14.48 the month of July, incredibly horrible things happening all 00:04:14.48\00:04:17.69 over the place, we have the police shooting of Sterling, we 00:04:17.69\00:04:24.79 have the police shooting of Castile, we've got retribution, 00:04:24.79\00:04:30.50 vigilante retribution coming in places like Dallas with 5 police 00:04:30.50\00:04:35.20 officers shot by a sniper in a kind of revenge execution style. 00:04:35.20\00:04:41.91 We've got this 20-ton truck coming straight into Nice as 00:04:41.91\00:04:48.48 they're celebrating Bastille Day and the guy flips the thing 00:04:48.48\00:04:51.55 sideways, most people down, kills 84. 00:04:51.55\00:04:54.92 >>DAVID: That was 84. 00:04:54.92\00:04:55.82 >>TY: 84. 00:04:55.82\00:04:56.66 It's just... 00:04:56.66\00:04:58.59 >>JEFFREY: I was telling my wife that it's like we're in a movie, 00:04:58.59\00:05:00.43 this is like not even real. 00:05:00.43\00:05:01.83 >>TY: It's just one thing after another, isn't it? 00:05:01.83\00:05:04.20 It's just one thing after another. 00:05:04.20\00:05:06.63 >>DAVID: And speaking of France, it's not that long ago that you 00:05:06.63\00:05:09.20 had the shooting in France. 00:05:09.20\00:05:10.41 >>TY: Yei, in November, 130 people shot in, what was it a 00:05:10.41\00:05:12.94 public venue of some kind, a concert hall. 00:05:12.94\00:05:15.44 >>DAVID: Yeah, it was like a rock and roll concert. 00:05:15.44\00:05:17.61 >>TY: Yeah, but just the pain and... 00:05:17.61\00:05:21.28 >>DAVID: Orlando. 00:05:21.28\00:05:22.45 >>TY: Orlando, the nightclub there, just one thing after 00:05:22.45\00:05:28.09 another, and there's an interesting dynamic going on 00:05:28.09\00:05:31.96 because if you pay attention to what is happening, people are 00:05:31.96\00:05:36.40 beginning to lose faith in the system of law and order itself 00:05:36.40\00:05:42.14 and taking law into their own hands and beginning to try to 00:05:42.14\00:05:45.71 bring about justice in a world that they feel like justice is 00:05:45.71\00:05:50.61 just draining out of the world. 00:05:50.61\00:05:54.15 That's the situation that we're in, so, my curiosity is, does 00:05:54.15\00:06:00.99 the book of Revelation speak significantly into our world's 00:06:00.99\00:06:06.70 confusion and pain? 00:06:06.70\00:06:08.76 Does the book of Revelation, is it relevant right now to our 00:06:08.76\00:06:12.30 world that we live in, does it say things to us and to the 00:06:12.30\00:06:16.74 world we live in or is it just a bunch of cartoonish characters 00:06:16.74\00:06:21.31 that nobody can figure out? 00:06:21.31\00:06:23.24 Does the book of Revelation speak to the world that we live 00:06:23.24\00:06:27.78 in right now? 00:06:27.78\00:06:29.02 >>JEFFREY: I love, even in the historical context that the book 00:06:29.02\00:06:32.02 is even written in, John is sitting on an island, right? 00:06:32.02\00:06:36.22 Exiled. 00:06:36.22\00:06:37.43 And if we were to enter into his headspace, it was probably a 00:06:37.43\00:06:41.13 chaotic world. 00:06:41.13\00:06:43.50 >>TY: Probably, it was. 00:06:43.50\00:06:44.73 >>JEFFREY: Things were spinning out of control and God seemed to 00:06:44.73\00:06:48.10 be out of the picture. 00:06:48.10\00:06:50.47 It would be conceivable for thinking people to wonder, where 00:06:50.47\00:06:53.21 is God? 00:06:53.21\00:06:54.21 Why is the world so crazy? 00:06:54.21\00:06:56.58 Christians were being persecuted, John is sitting on 00:06:56.58\00:06:59.48 this island to rot to death and so, he pens this crazy, epic, 00:06:59.48\00:07:06.65 majestic vision in the book of Revelation. 00:07:06.65\00:07:08.76 So, before we even jump into what the book says, I think it's 00:07:08.76\00:07:12.06 significant the setting in which it's written in. 00:07:12.06\00:07:15.96 Like, who's actually writing this down? 00:07:15.96\00:07:17.73 Who's relaying these visions? 00:07:17.73\00:07:20.17 So, I think, when we read, we're reading into a situation where 00:07:20.17\00:07:24.14 the author himself was, quote unquote watching the news, 00:07:24.14\00:07:27.94 thinking, this is nuts, what's happening? 00:07:27.94\00:07:31.38 >>DAVID: He was living the news. 00:07:31.38\00:07:32.61 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, he was in it, he was in it, and so, I don't 00:07:32.61\00:07:34.68 think any of us have been stranded, left to rot on an 00:07:34.68\00:07:38.25 island for our faith and yet, that's the setting of the book. 00:07:38.25\00:07:42.09 I think that's powerful. 00:07:42.09\00:07:44.09 >>TY: Well, one of the features of the book, I mentioned a 00:07:44.09\00:07:47.83 moment ago, it has patterns, features. 00:07:47.83\00:07:50.37 One of the features of the book, see if you guys have noticed 00:07:50.37\00:07:54.17 this or if you think there's any problem with this, I think that 00:07:54.17\00:07:57.37 one of the things that's happening in the book of 00:07:57.37\00:08:00.04 Revelation is that evil escalates, it implodes, and it 00:08:00.04\00:08:05.75 ends. 00:08:05.75\00:08:07.05 That's different than the general perspective that we have 00:08:07.05\00:08:10.65 in the world. 00:08:10.65\00:08:11.85 The news in our world that makes all of our hearts heavy just 00:08:11.85\00:08:15.59 reports the evil that is going on in the world. 00:08:15.59\00:08:19.39 The book of Revelation, in a sense, we'll discover, reports 00:08:19.39\00:08:22.66 evil in advance, that's why it's called prophecy, but the book of 00:08:22.66\00:08:26.80 Revelation does something that no newscast, that no human 00:08:26.80\00:08:31.94 political system, that no religious system can do. 00:08:31.94\00:08:34.74 The book of Revelation explains the methodology by which God is 00:08:34.74\00:08:39.55 going to bring evil to an end and it reports to us that evil 00:08:39.55\00:08:44.05 isn't a feature of reality eternally. 00:08:44.05\00:08:49.02 ITts not built into the system, it's an intruder in the system. 00:08:49.02\00:08:53.56 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:53.56\00:08:56.16 >>DAVID: Could you say that again, Ty? 00:08:56.16\00:08:57.20 Evil is not a, did you say a feature? 00:08:57.20\00:08:58.87 >>TY: It's not a feature of reality intrinsically, it, 00:08:58.87\00:09:02.14 reality wasn't made to sustain evil. 00:09:02.14\00:09:05.24 Why do you think we're all crying out for justice? 00:09:05.24\00:09:08.78 I mean, people who believe in God or not, even atheists, if 00:09:08.78\00:09:12.38 someone says, I don't even believe in God, they look at 00:09:12.38\00:09:14.62 what's happening in the world and there's this sense of 00:09:14.62\00:09:16.89 justice that rises up and says, that needs to end, that needs to 00:09:16.89\00:09:19.12 stop. 00:09:19.12\00:09:20.22 >>JEFFREY: It's like we're wired to react, we're wired to 00:09:20.22\00:09:22.92 recognize that this is not the way it was meant to be, it's 00:09:22.92\00:09:25.96 like, what's that analogy, if a fish is in water, it doesn't 00:09:25.96\00:09:30.97 know that it's wet, it's its natural habitat. 00:09:30.97\00:09:35.24 The minute we get plunged into a body of water, we immediately 00:09:35.24\00:09:38.91 know that we're wet, right? 00:09:38.91\00:09:40.64 We don't belong in that environment and so, God, no God, 00:09:40.64\00:09:44.51 religion, no religion, everybody instinctively, you know, 00:09:44.51\00:09:50.95 recognizes that something is wrong. 00:09:50.95\00:09:53.39 At that level, at least, we're all on the same page. 00:09:53.39\00:09:56.29 And so, from there, we plunge into explanations, trying to 00:09:56.29\00:10:00.33 figure it out, trying to make sense out of it and from there 00:10:00.33\00:10:03.50 grows other worldviews and religions and perspectives and 00:10:03.50\00:10:06.77 philosophies. 00:10:06.77\00:10:08.00 We're all trying to explain the same, like you were saying, hot 00:10:08.00\00:10:10.97 mess, right? 00:10:10.97\00:10:11.64 The same mess. 00:10:11.64\00:10:13.04 >>DAVID: On that note, two things I wanna say to that, I 00:10:13.04\00:10:15.08 love that, Jeffrey, is that, I just read a book recently that 00:10:15.08\00:10:18.55 said that the dilemma or the culture of the modern situation 00:10:18.55\00:10:25.05 is the radical depersonalization of evil. 00:10:25.05\00:10:28.96 So, historically, people have regarded evil. 00:10:28.96\00:10:31.93 If you go down through the ages, through various cultures around 00:10:31.93\00:10:34.13 the world, evil has been regarded as, there is an 00:10:34.13\00:10:37.43 antagonist,whether it's the evil spirits or there is a devil like 00:10:37.43\00:10:40.97 figure. 00:10:40.97\00:10:41.80 That's not the world we live in today. 00:10:41.80\00:10:43.17 Today, we live in a world where evil is radically 00:10:43.17\00:10:45.87 depersonalized. 00:10:45.87\00:10:47.11 It's the modern world, it's the scientific world, it's natural. 00:10:47.11\00:10:48.91 But this gets really problematic because if this is just part of 00:10:48.91\00:10:53.11 a larger process and just everything in the universe can 00:10:53.11\00:10:56.18 be explained by the universe, you know, there's nothing 00:10:56.18\00:10:58.45 transcendent, there's no God, there's no spirits, there's 00:10:58.45\00:11:01.96 nothing outside, well then it gets really tricky because the 00:11:01.96\00:11:05.49 whole call for justice, the whole sense of alienation that 00:11:05.49\00:11:09.13 we feel from the way things should be is just a grand 00:11:09.13\00:11:12.20 illusion, I guess, that's been fobbed off on us by... 00:11:12.20\00:11:15.37 >>TY: We taught it to ourselves. 00:11:15.37\00:11:16.47 >>DAVID: We taught it to ourselves, but I don't think so, 00:11:16.47\00:11:19.17 I think that the sense of alienation that we feel, and the 00:11:19.17\00:11:21.28 truth of the matter is, when we experience these things, you 00:11:21.28\00:11:24.55 began by outlining the world in which we find ourselves. 00:11:24.55\00:11:27.38 We are becoming or we may already be tragically, what's 00:11:27.38\00:11:34.76 the word I'm looking for here? 00:11:34.76\00:11:35.69 >>TY: Desensitized? 00:11:35.69\00:11:36.89 >>DAVID: Desensitized to them and we've just accommodated 00:11:36.89\00:11:38.09 these things, we just regard them as that's just a part of 00:11:38.09\00:11:40.53 reality but I believe that every one of us knows that some 00:11:40.53\00:11:44.90 significant, emotional, personal, emotive level, that's 00:11:44.90\00:11:51.04 not right. 00:11:51.04\00:11:52.27 It's not right and it's not just right in an, oh, well, that was 00:11:52.27\00:11:55.41 an inconvenience, you know, for the people in Nice or the people 00:11:55.41\00:11:58.15 in Orlando or whatever. 00:11:58.15\00:11:59.38 >>TY: Or, in my opinion, those people shouldn't have been shot. 00:11:59.38\00:12:00.68 >>DAVID: Yeah, we're not talking about soup and salad, pizza and 00:12:00.68\00:12:03.05 pasta, you know, blue or red, that's wrong. 00:12:03.05\00:12:06.02 That's the world that we live in and evil is not something to be 00:12:06.02\00:12:09.69 accommodated, it's something to be resisted and Revelation 00:12:09.69\00:12:13.16 paints that picture. 00:12:13.16\00:12:14.36 >>TY: Yeah, Revelation, check this out, I don't know where it 00:12:14.36\00:12:17.13 is off the top of my head, but we'll come to it, James may know 00:12:17.13\00:12:19.00 exactly the passage, I'm not sure, but there's one place in 00:12:19.00\00:12:22.17 the book of Revelation where the heart cry of the human race is 00:12:22.17\00:12:28.34 spoken by John is spoken by John when he says, how long? 00:12:28.34\00:12:31.85 >>JAMES: Revelation 6. 00:12:31.85\00:12:33.01 >>TY: Revelation 6. 00:12:33.01\00:12:34.22 So, the question is, there's bad stuff happening in this 00:12:34.22\00:12:37.42 particular context. 00:12:37.42\00:12:38.59 There's been prostitution, there's been, people have been 00:12:38.59\00:12:40.82 killed mercilessly, and there's this crying out, how long? 00:12:40.82\00:12:45.56 Well, that how long question, that's our question, that's the 00:12:45.56\00:12:49.93 question of the human race. 00:12:49.93\00:12:52.13 How long is evil going to triumph and go on and on and on. 00:12:52.13\00:12:56.47 People in the news are being interviewed and in so many 00:12:56.47\00:13:00.81 different ways with different language, people are saying, how 00:13:00.81\00:13:04.28 long is this gonna go on? 00:13:04.28\00:13:05.45 We gotta do something, we gotta do something, we gotta do 00:13:05.45\00:13:07.62 something. 00:13:07.62\00:13:09.02 >>JEFFREY: The context, the context of the text you quoted 00:13:09.02\00:13:11.05 is judge. 00:13:11.05\00:13:12.02 Justice. 00:13:12.02\00:13:12.99 How long will we... 00:13:12.99\00:13:15.82 >>JAMES: Do we not judge and avenge our blood on them that 00:13:15.82\00:13:17.79 dwell on the earth? 00:13:17.79\00:13:19.03 And the other things is, on them that dwell on the earth, there 00:13:19.03\00:13:20.63 are individuals on the earth, against which judgement needs to 00:13:20.63\00:13:23.73 come because of the wickedness that they're doing, because of 00:13:23.73\00:13:25.93 the things that they're doing and you realize that this is 00:13:25.93\00:13:28.10 also a theme because the book of Revelation is written in this 00:13:28.10\00:13:30.94 repeating and large type of way. 00:13:30.94\00:13:33.64 >>DAVID: Say something, say it again. 00:13:33.64\00:13:35.18 >>JAMES: And when we look at evil, like Jeffrey was saying 00:13:35.18\00:13:37.95 earlier, well, John was dealing with the world of evil, and 00:13:37.95\00:13:40.88 we've been dealing with centuries of evil all the way 00:13:40.88\00:13:43.62 through time, it's like these cycles that we go through where 00:13:43.62\00:13:45.95 we have this cycle of evil and darkness and then we come out of 00:13:45.95\00:13:49.26 it. 00:13:49.26\00:13:50.46 And then we go back into the cycle and then we come out of 00:13:50.46\00:13:51.86 it. 00:13:51.86\00:13:52.96 And when you look at our history, you see this over and 00:13:52.96\00:13:54.60 over again, and this is what we see in the book of Revelation, 00:13:54.60\00:13:57.27 so much so that, when you get to a third cycle in Revelation, 00:13:57.27\00:14:01.24 Revelation chapter 11, it talks about the kingdom of God 00:14:01.24\00:14:04.77 becoming the kings of this world, the kingdom of these 00:14:04.77\00:14:06.71 worlds becoming the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ, and it 00:14:06.71\00:14:08.61 says that God is going to destroy those that destroy the 00:14:08.61\00:14:11.75 earth and that word earth means, not just the physical, you know, 00:14:11.75\00:14:16.18 material, the ground, the dust, but the inhabitants also, those 00:14:16.18\00:14:19.05 who have been destroying the inhabitants. 00:14:19.05\00:14:20.49 Those who've been destroying people and hurting people and 00:14:20.49\00:14:23.53 bringing misery and pain and suffering to people are also 00:14:23.53\00:14:26.39 gonna be dealt with or avenged, as it says there in Revelation 00:14:26.39\00:14:29.23 6:10. 00:14:29.23\00:14:30.40 >>DAVID: I think it's important, I love what you say there, 00:14:30.40\00:14:31.50 James, and I think it's important that we say here at 00:14:31.50\00:14:33.54 the outset, you know, this is the opening of the series that 00:14:33.54\00:14:36.07 the plan, I think, is to go through the book of Revelation. 00:14:36.07\00:14:38.57 Right now, we're just sort of orienting ourselves to the time 00:14:38.57\00:14:41.11 in which John lived, to the time in which we live and I think the 00:14:41.11\00:14:43.04 question you're asking, Ty, is, does this book speak into our 00:14:43.04\00:14:46.55 modern context? 00:14:46.55\00:14:47.78 And the answer is a resounding yes, and I think some might be 00:14:47.78\00:14:52.19 surprised with the poignancy and the power with which it speaks 00:14:52.19\00:14:57.16 into a modern context. 00:14:57.16\00:14:58.66 That reality that we're facing right now of these events that 00:14:58.66\00:15:02.00 you described at the outset here, that's some modern, it's a 00:15:02.00\00:15:05.07 very modern phenomenon in the sense that we now have access by 00:15:05.07\00:15:08.10 communication, technology, to know things, terrible things 00:15:08.10\00:15:11.41 that could've been happening in various parts of the world in 00:15:11.41\00:15:13.41 ancient times but were not known. 00:15:13.41\00:15:14.21 But here's the key, God has known. 00:15:14.21\00:15:16.75 You know, if you were living, say 800 miles away from somebody 00:15:16.75\00:15:19.48 else, you know, 1,000 years ago, something terrible could've 00:15:19.48\00:15:22.32 happened, some act of terrorism, but you would've been none the 00:15:22.32\00:15:26.02 wiser, you know, at least immediately. 00:15:26.02\00:15:28.19 Now, we just have this massive, you know, onslaught of 00:15:28.19\00:15:32.13 information. 00:15:32.13\00:15:33.36 Something happens anywhere and everywhere and you just pick up 00:15:33.36\00:15:35.03 your phone and we're just not, we're not capacitated to deal, 00:15:35.03\00:15:40.60 I don't think we're capacitated with evil at all. 00:15:40.60\00:15:43.04 I think we have, we have these mechanisms that insulate us from 00:15:43.04\00:15:46.78 it, but to deal with the level of evil and the level of pain 00:15:46.78\00:15:51.51 and the level of suffering that is coming to us right now, I 00:15:51.51\00:15:54.95 think that we are all, at some level, hugely and emotionally 00:15:54.95\00:15:58.99 fragile and we're just surviving. 00:15:58.99\00:16:02.49 >>TY: David, I just read an article yesterday where the 00:16:02.49\00:16:05.83 author was analyzing our easy and immediate access to all the 00:16:05.83\00:16:11.93 horrible, evil things going on in the world. 00:16:11.93\00:16:14.60 >>DAVID: This thing I'm talking about. 00:16:14.60\00:16:15.74 >>TY: It's talking about the fact that 95% of all young 00:16:15.74\00:16:17.57 adults, anybody in their teens, 20s, 30s, it was saying visits a 00:16:17.57\00:16:23.81 news site of some kind and is on the internet a minimum of 20 00:16:23.81\00:16:31.22 times a day and they're just checking, checking, checking, so 00:16:31.22\00:16:34.29 you hear about everything that's going on in the world and the 00:16:34.29\00:16:36.83 article, the genius of the article is it was analyzing how 00:16:36.83\00:16:41.16 just the access to the information, which you can't 00:16:41.16\00:16:44.27 stop, is creating a sense that something has to be done that 00:16:44.27\00:16:50.91 has in it the potential for anarchy because people are not 00:16:50.91\00:16:58.35 trusting the system. 00:16:58.35\00:16:59.58 I mentioned this a minute ago, they're looking on and they're 00:16:59.58\00:17:01.72 saying, if you're not gonna deal with it, because we're not 00:17:01.72\00:17:05.52 equipped, we're not wired to handle all this information, 00:17:05.52\00:17:08.89 telling us this happened here, that happened there, this is 00:17:08.89\00:17:11.19 horrible, that's horrible, and there's this sense rising in 00:17:11.19\00:17:15.46 people, in fact, from the recent events in France, one article 00:17:15.46\00:17:19.53 said that this could throw France into civil war because 00:17:19.53\00:17:24.57 people on the streets are saying, enough, we're not gonna 00:17:24.57\00:17:27.98 tolerate this and the system is failing us. 00:17:27.98\00:17:30.91 The system isn't stopping this, so we're gonna take justice into 00:17:30.91\00:17:32.95 our own hands, hence the potential for anarchy. 00:17:32.95\00:17:35.98 >>JEFFREY: So, it's a vicious cycle, it's a crazy cycle, 00:17:35.98\00:17:37.99 right? 00:17:37.99\00:17:39.22 Because bad things are happening in the world, the response of 00:17:39.22\00:17:41.36 modernity is, let's make these things out in the open so that 00:17:41.36\00:17:47.50 everybody's aware that these bad things are happening, with the 00:17:47.50\00:17:50.77 incentive to arrive at some solution, let's shed light on 00:17:50.77\00:17:55.37 the darkness that's happening so that evil people don't get away 00:17:55.37\00:17:59.04 with their evil, right? 00:17:59.04\00:18:00.31 But in the process of making that accessible to the masses, 00:18:00.31\00:18:04.18 it's perpetuating the anarchy because now, more people, like 00:18:04.18\00:18:09.05 you said, are freaking out and becoming increasingly 00:18:09.05\00:18:12.45 distrustful of the system and so, now, they're perpetuating 00:18:12.45\00:18:16.93 the anarchy. 00:18:16.93\00:18:18.13 I would even say the sniper shootings that you opened with 00:18:18.13\00:18:19.86 in Dallas and all of that, you have to believe that that also 00:18:19.86\00:18:24.93 is motivated by people, as you say, being bombarded and 00:18:24.93\00:18:28.97 overwhelmed with all of the craziness happening in the 00:18:28.97\00:18:31.14 world, they're thinking, we have to do something about this. 00:18:31.14\00:18:33.41 It's a vicious cycle. 00:18:33.41\00:18:34.51 >>TY: And furthermore, on the downside of it, another 00:18:34.51\00:18:36.81 phenomenon is taking place and that is that it used to be that 00:18:36.81\00:18:40.12 the terrorists had to get together in a room and form 00:18:40.12\00:18:43.12 cells. 00:18:43.12\00:18:44.25 And they were members of a thing. 00:18:44.25\00:18:48.09 Now, most of the terrorist acts that we're witnessing are people 00:18:48.09\00:18:52.39 who have no actual connection to the terrorist organization, like 00:18:52.39\00:18:56.26 ISIS, they're just watching it all on the news, identifying, 00:18:56.26\00:18:59.50 and saying, I'll perform an act of terror on behalf of that 00:18:59.50\00:19:02.87 organization and they can claim it. 00:19:02.87\00:19:04.94 And so, just people out of nowhere, saying, hey, I'm a part 00:19:04.94\00:19:09.31 of that, I'll go ahead and act. 00:19:09.31\00:19:12.25 >>JAMES: You know, what's really powerful is that the book of 00:19:12.25\00:19:14.35 Revelation actually introduces a solution to all of this, which 00:19:14.35\00:19:18.19 is really unique in a sense, in society today because you were 00:19:18.19\00:19:21.86 talking about how people wanna take the law into their own 00:19:21.86\00:19:24.73 hands, anarchy is on the horizon, vigilantism is taking, 00:19:24.73\00:19:28.23 you know, hold of individuals who are shooting police officers 00:19:28.23\00:19:31.77 or shooting others, Revelation chapter one, as it introduces us 00:19:31.77\00:19:36.04 to the book of Revelation, here's an interesting verse, 00:19:36.04\00:19:38.11 let's see if you can get this out of the verse. 00:19:38.11\00:19:41.51 Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, and 00:19:41.51\00:19:44.68 they also which pierced him and all kindred's of the earth shall 00:19:44.68\00:19:48.55 wail because of him, even so, amen. 00:19:48.55\00:19:50.22 In other words, God has a day when, even those who pierced 00:19:50.22\00:19:55.19 Christ are gonna be held accountable for what they did. 00:19:55.19\00:19:58.93 Everyone's gonna be held to account. 00:19:58.93\00:20:00.43 Now, that doesn't mean that we just skip over justice and we 00:20:00.43\00:20:02.40 don't resist as we should, etcetera, etcetera, but it gives 00:20:02.40\00:20:04.70 us a perspective that is much larger than any government or 00:20:04.70\00:20:09.34 any individual can accomplish on this earth. 00:20:09.34\00:20:11.61 God actually has a day of accounts. 00:20:11.61\00:20:14.04 This verse repeated through Revelation chapter 6, verse 10, 00:20:14.04\00:20:17.98 repeated through Revelation chapter 11, verse 19, this verse 00:20:17.98\00:20:20.38 informs us that there is gonna be accountability and if we can 00:20:20.38\00:20:24.42 bring that message to those who are listening, if people can 00:20:24.42\00:20:27.49 understand that there is gonna be a day of accounts, that God 00:20:27.49\00:20:30.19 has that, and all through the book of Revelation's building to 00:20:30.19\00:20:32.56 that day, that can bring us a lot of assurance and peace. 00:20:32.56\00:20:35.96 >>TY: Excellent point. 00:20:35.96\00:20:37.20 WE have to push the pause button right there, and we'll take a 00:20:37.20\00:20:39.37 break and we'll just come right back and continue the 00:20:39.37\00:20:41.44 conversation. 00:20:41.44\00:20:43.20 [Music] 00:20:43.20\00:20:54.15 >>TY: So far, we've just noticed that in the book of 00:20:54.15\00:20:56.85 Revelation, there are features, there are patterns that show up, 00:20:56.85\00:21:01.56 we should point out that in this first of the 13 sessions, all 00:21:01.56\00:21:06.76 we're doing is looking at the book of Revelation in 00:21:06.76\00:21:10.30 introduction. 00:21:10.30\00:21:11.63 We're not dealing with the details, we haven't gotten into 00:21:11.63\00:21:13.47 the prophecies yet, we're essentially saying, what are 00:21:13.47\00:21:16.87 some of the prominent features of the book of Revelation? 00:21:16.87\00:21:21.61 And one of the ones that I've noticed, again, I'm just 00:21:21.61\00:21:25.15 throwing this out, and what do you guys think, is this there? 00:21:25.15\00:21:28.95 Is this not there? 00:21:28.95\00:21:30.55 I think that one of the things that's going on in the book is 00:21:30.55\00:21:32.75 that we're encountering John in the role of pastor, poet, and 00:21:32.75\00:21:40.60 prophet, all P's, just so it's easier to remember. 00:21:40.60\00:21:43.87 There's pastoral counsel, especially in the seven churches 00:21:43.87\00:21:47.40 prophecy where Jesus is, in fact, the pastor that's 00:21:47.40\00:21:49.57 pastoring John and pastoring us through John's counsel. 00:21:49.57\00:21:53.34 There's pastoral counsel, there's rebuke, there's 00:21:53.34\00:21:55.94 correction. 00:21:55.94\00:21:56.95 Secondly, the book itself is poetry. 00:21:56.95\00:22:00.52 It's written in a certain way in order to make certain points, 00:22:00.52\00:22:05.82 there are certain poetic patterns, and thirdly, it's 00:22:05.82\00:22:08.26 prophecy. 00:22:08.26\00:22:09.29 The book of Revelation foretells events in advance. 00:22:09.29\00:22:15.56 So, why don't we just explore and break down what we see going 00:22:15.56\00:22:21.94 on on the prophetic level. 00:22:21.94\00:22:24.77 When we say that the book of Revelation is a book of 00:22:24.77\00:22:27.11 prophecy, let's just be honest, that freaks people out. 00:22:27.11\00:22:31.78 In fact, I would say that it freaked me out when people said, 00:22:31.78\00:22:36.02 hey, future events foretold. 00:22:36.02\00:22:38.45 What is this, Nostradamus or what? 00:22:38.45\00:22:40.12 It's weird. 00:22:40.12\00:22:41.76 It's hokey. 00:22:41.76\00:22:42.99 There are people who will sit and watch this program and they 00:22:42.99\00:22:45.46 will be inclined to flip it off, just turn the thing off, I'm not 00:22:45.46\00:22:48.80 even watching that, because it just sounds weird that we 00:22:48.80\00:22:52.90 actually believe that this book, in a credible way, foretells 00:22:52.90\00:23:00.28 future events? 00:23:00.28\00:23:02.21 Is that hokey, is that strange? 00:23:02.21\00:23:04.01 >>JEFFREY: Can I just jump in and read from the first verse of 00:23:04.01\00:23:06.95 the book? 00:23:06.95\00:23:08.12 So, chapter 1, verse 1, it opens, it says, this kind of I 00:23:08.12\00:23:12.32 think, answers the question of the fear, this is creepy, 00:23:12.32\00:23:15.32 cryptic stuff, the unknown, the future, the revelation of Jesus 00:23:15.32\00:23:20.06 Christ, which God gave him to show his servants, things which 00:23:20.06\00:23:25.63 must shortly take place, and he sent and signified it by his 00:23:25.63\00:23:31.54 angel to his servant John. 00:23:31.54\00:23:34.98 So, just, the point there that, to me, is compelling is, number 00:23:34.98\00:23:38.58 one, yes, it's to predict things in the future, but it's the 00:23:38.58\00:23:42.88 revelation of Jesus Christ, so it's a person, right? 00:23:42.88\00:23:46.62 It's not these cryptic, strange, dark sayings with dragons and 00:23:46.62\00:23:51.86 beasts, I was gonna say, that's not the whole, the totality of 00:23:51.86\00:23:56.87 the point. 00:23:56.87\00:23:58.07 The point is, a person is being unfolded, the revelation of 00:23:58.07\00:24:03.37 Jesus Christ, and I think that when you look at it that way, it 00:24:03.37\00:24:07.54 puts the fear component into perspective. 00:24:07.54\00:24:10.08 >>JAMES: Yeah, let me add to that, Jeffrey, I think that's 00:24:10.08\00:24:11.61 good because it is a revelation of Jesus, but you know, most 00:24:11.61\00:24:14.55 scholars will argue, well, it's a revelation from Jesus. 00:24:14.55\00:24:17.79 And I think it's both. 00:24:17.79\00:24:18.99 I think it's a revelation of Jesus's revelation from Jesus, 00:24:18.99\00:24:21.09 but just to piggyback on what Jeffrey said, the dragon doesn't 00:24:21.09\00:24:25.66 show up in the book of Revelation until we get halfway 00:24:25.66\00:24:28.16 through the book. 00:24:28.16\00:24:29.33 The dragon doesn't show up until, this red guy right here, 00:24:29.33\00:24:32.07 with all of the horns and the claws and the biceps that are 00:24:32.07\00:24:35.64 way larger than David's, this guy does not show up until you 00:24:35.64\00:24:39.44 get halfway through the book. 00:24:39.44\00:24:40.91 So, you're making a valid point and this point, I think, is 00:24:40.91\00:24:43.28 really important for those who are interested in this book 00:24:43.28\00:24:46.92 perhaps, but scared of it. 00:24:46.92\00:24:48.65 The fact of the matter is, God has said, listen, don't be 00:24:48.65\00:24:51.29 scared of the book of Revelation because it's about Jesus. 00:24:51.29\00:24:53.89 He's gonna come first. 00:24:53.89\00:24:55.32 In fact, we're not even gonna get to the dragon until we get 00:24:55.32\00:24:58.46 halfway through the book because I really wanna saturate your 00:24:58.46\00:25:01.20 minds and hearts with yeah, pictures of the bad and the ugly 00:25:01.20\00:25:05.90 and the evil that's going on in the world, but in the context of 00:25:05.90\00:25:08.24 the fact that God has a plan, that God has a day of judgement, 00:25:08.24\00:25:11.44 that God is still in control, that things aren't so far gone 00:25:11.44\00:25:15.28 that there's still not a message of hope. 00:25:15.28\00:25:17.58 >>JEFFREY: So, I love what you said there. 00:25:17.58\00:25:19.61 In the three categories that you pose in the beginning, pastor, 00:25:19.61\00:25:22.78 poet, prophet, when you think of the book Revelation, or stop 00:25:22.78\00:25:26.86 anybody in the street and ask them about the book and gave 00:25:26.86\00:25:30.09 them these three categories, which one are they... 00:25:30.09\00:25:32.26 >>TY: Only number three. 00:25:32.26\00:25:33.36 >>JEFFREY: They're gonna point to, oh, prophet, right? 00:25:33.36\00:25:35.76 But if it begins in the way that it begins, really, the argument, 00:25:35.76\00:25:40.14 and you just said, really, the dragon doesn't show up 'til 00:25:40.14\00:25:42.04 halfway through the book. 00:25:42.04\00:25:43.77 Pastoral is the premise of the book. 00:25:43.77\00:25:46.91 The role of pastor, and by pastoral we mean, of course... 00:25:46.91\00:25:51.55 >>TY: Comfort, correction. 00:25:51.55\00:25:53.45 >>JAMES: Gospel, education. 00:25:53.45\00:25:54.85 >>DAVID: All of that is true, but verse one also says to show 00:25:54.85\00:25:59.52 his servants things which must shortly take place. 00:25:59.52\00:26:02.39 That's future. 00:26:02.39\00:26:03.66 >>JEFFREY: And that's the prophetic. 00:26:03.66\00:26:05.33 >>TY: And verse 3, verse 3, blessed is he who reads and 00:26:05.33\00:26:10.27 those who hear the words of this prophecy. 00:26:10.27\00:26:14.44 So, it is a book of prophet. 00:26:14.44\00:26:16.27 >>DAVID: The time is near. 00:26:16.27\00:26:17.47 It's not that the time is now, it's that the time is near. 00:26:17.47\00:26:20.98 >>JEFFREY: But the prophetic flows out of the personal and 00:26:20.98\00:26:22.81 pastoral. 00:26:22.81\00:26:23.65 >>DAVID: Of course it does. 00:26:23.65\00:26:24.61 >>JEFFREY: It's not the converse. 00:26:24.61\00:26:25.71 >>JAMES: Yeah, verse 4, grace and peace be unto you. 00:26:25.71\00:26:28.38 So, there's the pastoral again, grace and peace. 00:26:28.38\00:26:30.92 This sounds like something Paul's written. 00:26:30.92\00:26:32.92 >>DAVID: All of that's true. 00:26:32.92\00:26:34.12 So, I just wanna come back to Ty's question 'cause I feel 00:26:34.12\00:26:35.29 like, I feel like you didn't answer it. 00:26:35.29\00:26:37.09 >>TY: [Laughter] 00:26:37.09\00:26:38.26 >>DAVID: I liked what you said, but... 00:26:38.26\00:26:39.53 >>JEFFREY: You didn't get it, it was too deep. 00:26:39.53\00:26:40.73 >>DAVID: It was too deep for me, but the question that Ty was 00:26:40.73\00:26:42.26 saying is, is it not the case that a lot of people would 00:26:42.26\00:26:45.33 regard even the notion that an ancient book speaks not only to 00:26:45.33\00:26:49.00 modern times, but to future times as absurd and we have to 00:26:49.00\00:26:52.11 grant that that's the case. 00:26:52.11\00:26:53.94 In the world in which we live here, the modern world, we have 00:26:53.94\00:26:58.25 to grant that we can't just show up and say, well, the book of 00:26:58.25\00:27:00.75 Revelation says, full stop, end of story, a lot of people are 00:27:00.75\00:27:03.35 gonna be like, who cares what the book of Revelation says? 00:27:03.35\00:27:05.85 Now, I think our point would be, well, just give us an hour, give 00:27:05.85\00:27:09.96 us two, give us three, let's try to build a case and see if then 00:27:09.96\00:27:13.36 you say who cares. 00:27:13.36\00:27:14.73 And I think that's what we're gonna try to do in the program 00:27:14.73\00:27:17.13 is to say, hey, look, we recognize that people shouldn't 00:27:17.13\00:27:21.10 just be listening in, hey, hey, announcement, announcement, 00:27:21.10\00:27:23.47 we're studying the book of Revelation, everybody wants to 00:27:23.47\00:27:25.24 pay attention. 00:27:25.24\00:27:26.14 A lot of people are gonna be like. 00:27:26.14\00:27:27.34 >>TY: That's hokey. 00:27:27.34\00:27:28.34 >>DAVID: Who cares? 00:27:28.34\00:27:29.54 You might as well be studying the Iliad or the Odyssey or 00:27:29.54\00:27:30.98 Nostradamus, you know, what's the book of Revelation? 00:27:30.98\00:27:33.25 It's an ancient text. 00:27:33.25\00:27:34.48 >>JEFFREY: But there's still a direct appeal, I do agree with 00:27:34.48\00:27:36.32 that, but there is a direct appeal because a viewer or 00:27:36.32\00:27:40.32 somebody considering the subject, as we say, that many 00:27:40.32\00:27:43.16 people would be like, what's that all about? 00:27:43.16\00:27:45.39 It's not necessarily anybody who cares about God or religion or 00:27:45.39\00:27:49.43 the bible that should sit at the table, it's anybody who cares 00:27:49.43\00:27:53.57 about the world, right? 00:27:53.57\00:27:55.44 Because the text says things that will shortly take place. 00:27:55.44\00:27:58.04 Take place where? 00:27:58.04\00:27:59.47 Are we talking about some speck in the universe? 00:27:59.47\00:28:02.98 >>TY: Yeah, but what David is saying is, you think they should 00:28:02.98\00:28:05.65 care because you're beginning with the premise that you accept 00:28:05.65\00:28:08.32 the book as inspired, but there are people who are... 00:28:08.32\00:28:11.72 >>JEFFREY: Not at all. 00:28:11.72\00:28:12.85 >>DAVID: Not even inspired, but as credible. 00:28:12.85\00:28:16.26 >>JEFFREY: Not at all, not even that. 00:28:16.26\00:28:17.83 Look, you made a reference, the book of Revelation freaked me 00:28:17.83\00:28:21.50 out, too, and I think we would all say that. 00:28:21.50\00:28:23.47 It wasn't until I was 17 that I actually started paying 00:28:23.47\00:28:27.64 attention, but my point is simply whether you regard this 00:28:27.64\00:28:31.84 as credible, God, religion, or scripture, my point is, whether 00:28:31.84\00:28:36.24 or not somebody should care, I think, is whether or not an 00:28:36.24\00:28:41.25 individual cares about the world. 00:28:41.25\00:28:43.32 We consider things to look into them and to check them out. 00:28:43.32\00:28:47.92 Whether or not we initially find them credible. 00:28:47.92\00:28:50.99 >>DAVID: Give it two hours, give it three hours, hear me out. 00:28:50.99\00:28:52.93 >>JEFFREY: We're motivated not necessarily because everybody 00:28:52.93\00:28:55.63 has to care about God, but do you care about the world you 00:28:55.63\00:28:58.60 live in? 00:28:58.60\00:29:00.04 >>TY: Do you care about justice? 00:29:00.04\00:29:00.84 You could ask the question that way. 00:29:00.84\00:29:01.64 >>JEFFREY: Do you care about justice? 00:29:01.64\00:29:02.30 Do you care about your family? 00:29:02.30\00:29:03.24 Do you care about where this world is going? 00:29:03.24\00:29:05.24 Do you care about your future? 00:29:05.24\00:29:06.64 The future of your loved ones? 00:29:06.64\00:29:08.34 >>DAVID: But we are, just so we're clear, and I know that we 00:29:08.34\00:29:11.48 all know this, so what we would be saying to somebody is, we 00:29:11.48\00:29:13.82 think this book speaks to these issues, can you give us, let us 00:29:13.82\00:29:17.59 make the case. 00:29:17.59\00:29:19.45 Give us 13 hours. 00:29:19.45\00:29:20.42 [Laughter] 00:29:20.42\00:29:21.89 Hopefully, we will have made the case a little bit before 00:29:21.89\00:29:24.59 that, but in other words, that's what happened to me, I mean, I 00:29:24.59\00:29:26.86 was a 23 year old studying premed at the university and 00:29:26.86\00:29:30.13 somebody came to me and said, hey, can I show you, and it was 00:29:30.13\00:29:36.54 like, eh, okay. 00:29:36.54\00:29:39.24 And then, within, you know, a fairly short period, it was 00:29:39.24\00:29:41.78 like, oh. 00:29:41.78\00:29:42.98 Well, that's interesting, and your curiosity's peaked and 00:29:42.98\00:29:45.58 okay, okay, okay. 00:29:45.58\00:29:48.82 So, I think that, at this point, you've got the prophecy thing, 00:29:48.82\00:29:51.59 you've got the pastoral thing, you've got the prophetic thing, 00:29:51.59\00:29:53.36 but the draw of the book of Revelation for those that are 00:29:53.36\00:29:55.79 external to Christians, external to people that take scripture 00:29:55.79\00:29:59.43 seriously, it's gotta be the prophetic thing. 00:29:59.43\00:30:01.13 It's gotta be. 00:30:01.13\00:30:02.60 Alright, maybe, I guess some could appreciate it at a 00:30:02.60\00:30:04.10 scholarly level as poetry, but not really. 00:30:04.10\00:30:06.43 >>JEFFREY: It depends on what you mean by prophetic, because 00:30:06.43\00:30:08.27 to me, at least, my perspective, I wasn't like, oh, I really 00:30:08.27\00:30:11.77 wanna know the future. 00:30:11.77\00:30:13.41 Right? 00:30:13.41\00:30:14.44 It was more like, what in the world is going on? 00:30:14.44\00:30:15.98 >>DAVID: The point you made earlier. 00:30:15.98\00:30:17.81 >>JEFFREY: In the world. 00:30:17.81\00:30:19.21 I think there's a marriage between the prophetic and the 00:30:19.21\00:30:21.52 pastoral. 00:30:21.52\00:30:22.58 'Cause you said, what's the hook? 00:30:22.58\00:30:24.99 We can say prophetic, true, but I think there's a blur there 00:30:24.99\00:30:29.02 where the pastoral and the prophetic merge. 00:30:29.02\00:30:32.19 >>DAVID: Which is summarized in something that you said just a 00:30:32.19\00:30:33.73 moment ago, the idea that God has a plan. 00:30:33.73\00:30:36.70 That's the point, isn't it? 00:30:36.70\00:30:38.63 Right, you know, the title in that first session, which was 00:30:38.63\00:30:41.60 outstanding, I really loved that conversation, where it looks, 00:30:41.60\00:30:43.87 anarchy, vigilantism, it looks like the thing is spinning out 00:30:43.87\00:30:46.74 of control and I suppose that, in the minds of some, hey, if 00:30:46.74\00:30:50.58 you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the 00:30:50.58\00:30:52.61 problem, or I think our perspective would be, I know our 00:30:52.61\00:30:54.95 perspective would be, there's a bigger story that's going on 00:30:54.95\00:30:57.75 here. 00:30:57.75\00:30:58.99 There is a God, there is a big story, and this is following a 00:30:58.99\00:31:03.29 painful, circuitous, difficult trajectory. 00:31:03.29\00:31:06.63 This is going somewhere. 00:31:06.63\00:31:07.83 And at the end of the day, the book of Revelation is going 00:31:07.83\00:31:10.53 somewhere. 00:31:10.53\00:31:11.77 >>TY: But the book of Revelation isn't talking down to us and to 00:31:11.77\00:31:14.27 the human race and saying, hey, this is what's going to happen, 00:31:14.27\00:31:18.17 God's in control, he's got a plan, the book of Revelation 00:31:18.17\00:31:21.14 actually expresses the universal, kind of human angst 00:31:21.14\00:31:25.48 about the thing. 00:31:25.48\00:31:26.61 The book of Revelation is saying, well, okay, God, you 00:31:26.61\00:31:28.82 have a plan, could you hurry up? 00:31:28.82\00:31:31.22 It's crying out and saying we want things to be dealt with 00:31:31.22\00:31:35.56 100%. 00:31:35.56\00:31:37.26 >>DAVID: Well, I'm so glad you said that because in the break, 00:31:37.26\00:31:38.93 there was a text I was looking for, on that how long. 00:31:38.93\00:31:41.80 'Cause that's not just a Revelation thing. 00:31:41.80\00:31:43.83 Revelation 6, what'd you say, 10. 00:31:43.83\00:31:45.50 How long before you do something about this? 00:31:45.50\00:31:48.74 >>JAMES: And 11:18. 00:31:48.74\00:31:49.97 >>DAVID: This grows out of, this is a pregnant question 00:31:49.97\00:31:55.08 throughout scripture and I wanna read one of my favorite passages 00:31:55.08\00:31:57.91 to that effect, Psalm 94, oh, Lord, to whom belongs vengeance, 00:31:57.91\00:32:02.15 oh, God, to whom vengeance belongs, shine forth, rise up, 00:32:02.15\00:32:05.92 oh, judge of the earth, render punishment to the proud. 00:32:05.92\00:32:08.36 Lord, how long will the wicked, how long will the wicked 00:32:08.36\00:32:12.49 triumph? 00:32:12.49\00:32:13.73 Okay, now, that's the language of, you know, 3,000 years ago or 00:32:13.73\00:32:17.63 2500 years ago. 00:32:17.63\00:32:18.73 But that's the question a lot of people are asking today. 00:32:18.73\00:32:21.07 Okay, if there's a God, how many of us have heard this question, 00:32:21.07\00:32:24.07 we've heard it 1,000 times, if there's a God, why is the world 00:32:24.07\00:32:27.24 or why does this or why? 00:32:27.24\00:32:28.58 That's the question the psalmist is asking, that's the question 00:32:28.58\00:32:31.95 the book of Revelation is asking, or at least the martyrs 00:32:31.95\00:32:34.15 under, you know, that are there depicted in Revelation 6, how 00:32:34.15\00:32:36.32 long? 00:32:36.32\00:32:37.72 'Cause. 00:32:37.72\00:32:38.69 Can you show up at some point? 00:32:38.69\00:32:41.29 >>JEFFREY: That's brilliant, and I think that the reason 00:32:41.29\00:32:43.56 prophecy, I think, is so compelling is because it assumes 00:32:43.56\00:32:48.66 that God doesn't expect people to just accept things from thin 00:32:48.66\00:32:52.50 air, right? 00:32:52.50\00:32:53.74 John chapter 14, verse 29, Jesus says this in respect to things 00:32:53.74\00:32:59.07 that he knows but we don't know, he says, now I have told you 00:32:59.07\00:33:02.11 before it comes that when it does come to pass, you may 00:33:02.11\00:33:05.85 believe. 00:33:05.85\00:33:06.95 So, to me, Revelation is presenting a God that respects 00:33:06.95\00:33:11.92 our intellect, right? 00:33:11.92\00:33:13.79 Revelation is presenting a God who wants to engage people. 00:33:13.79\00:33:19.19 >>TY: And divulge. 00:33:19.19\00:33:20.16 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, who wants to engage people. 00:33:20.16\00:33:21.60 So, in other words, I'm not expected to just believe fairy 00:33:21.60\00:33:24.43 tales, I'm given tangible things to sink my teeth into before I 00:33:24.43\00:33:30.37 can say I believe, right? 00:33:30.37\00:33:33.44 And so, I think that that, at least for me at 17 years old, 00:33:33.44\00:33:36.38 that was compelling to say, oh, there are things happening. 00:33:36.38\00:33:40.25 This world is not spinning endlessly out of control. 00:33:40.25\00:33:44.85 God is, there's a bigger picture here and the reason we are told 00:33:44.85\00:33:48.56 that things must shortly come to pass is so that we can orient 00:33:48.56\00:33:52.59 ourselves in God's continuum, in God's story, to figure out, 00:33:52.59\00:33:56.56 where am I, what's going on, and where do I fit in? 00:33:56.56\00:33:59.60 >>JAMES: There's another thing that I think speaks to us today 00:33:59.60\00:34:02.04 in the book of Revelation, that's Revelation 1, verse 9 00:34:02.04\00:34:04.71 says here, I, John, who also am your brother and companion in 00:34:04.71\00:34:09.54 tribulation in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in 00:34:09.54\00:34:13.11 the Isle that's called Patmos for the word of God and for the 00:34:13.11\00:34:15.55 testimony of Jesus Christ. 00:34:15.55\00:34:16.75 John was part of a minority group of people living on planet 00:34:16.75\00:34:20.46 earth, a minority group of people that was being persecuted 00:34:20.46\00:34:22.96 for what they believed and how they lived. 00:34:22.96\00:34:24.93 He had, at first tradition says, been thrown into a hot vat of 00:34:24.93\00:34:28.90 oil. 00:34:28.90\00:34:30.10 He was gonna be boiled alive and, surviving that, he was cast 00:34:30.10\00:34:32.53 onto this island, just mistreated. 00:34:32.53\00:34:35.00 Human beings being mistreated today, human beings being 00:34:35.00\00:34:37.61 mistreated because of their religious persuasion, because 00:34:37.61\00:34:40.64 they don't have the might to protect themselves, because 00:34:40.64\00:34:42.98 they're in the minority because the rest of the world looks at 00:34:42.98\00:34:45.75 them cautiously or feels threatened by them. 00:34:45.75\00:34:48.82 So, John is speaking into the very atmosphere or the very 00:34:48.82\00:34:52.15 thing that is happening on planet earth today. 00:34:52.15\00:34:53.69 These are things that are taking place today. 00:34:53.69\00:34:55.59 This is not distant from us, this is not something that's 00:34:55.59\00:34:58.09 totally, wow, I can't relate to that. 00:34:58.09\00:35:00.10 The book of Revelation speaks to the very issues that we face 00:35:00.10\00:35:03.83 today as human beings. 00:35:03.83\00:35:05.03 >>TY: I think that something that fits really well with where 00:35:05.03\00:35:08.34 we're at now in the discussion is the fact that another feature 00:35:08.34\00:35:12.71 of Revelation is that the big question hanging, if you read 00:35:12.71\00:35:18.15 the text is not merely what's going on on planet earth and how 00:35:18.15\00:35:23.75 bad is it? 00:35:23.75\00:35:24.95 It's gonna escalate, it's going to compound, evil's going to 00:35:24.95\00:35:28.29 spin out of control, but the big question hanging in Revelation 00:35:28.29\00:35:32.03 is the character of God, because you remember that question? 00:35:32.03\00:35:36.77 >>DAVID: Which is implied in that how long? 00:35:36.77\00:35:38.33 >>TY: Yeah, the question, how long? 00:35:38.33\00:35:40.67 That question is directed to God. 00:35:40.67\00:35:43.00 What are you up to? 00:35:43.00\00:35:44.11 We would like this to happen a little faster. 00:35:44.11\00:35:47.74 >>JEFFREY: It's a questioning of motive. 00:35:47.74\00:35:48.94 >>TY: But check this out, so you go through the book, this is 00:35:48.94\00:35:52.08 another feature, another trait, another pattern in the book. 00:35:52.08\00:35:54.72 You go through the book of Revelation and you have that how 00:35:54.72\00:35:57.79 long question and then you have this very interesting idea that 00:35:57.79\00:36:04.79 God himself is under investigation because you have, 00:36:04.79\00:36:08.73 throughout the book you have heavenly witnesses and you have 00:36:08.73\00:36:12.63 voices, both in heaven and earth, that are commenting on 00:36:12.63\00:36:16.87 God. 00:36:16.87\00:36:18.11 Not so much on what's going on in the world until they finally 00:36:18.11\00:36:20.54 come to their conclusion and they come to their conclusion in 00:36:20.54\00:36:25.41 chapter 15 and what they say is, great and marvelous are your 00:36:25.41\00:36:29.72 works, Lord God Almighty, and check this out, just and true 00:36:29.72\00:36:34.26 are your ways, ways, that's a word for methods, principles. 00:36:34.26\00:36:40.60 >>DAVID: Your actions, the way that you do them. 00:36:40.60\00:36:42.90 >>TY: The way that you are, in the context. 00:36:42.90\00:36:44.47 >>JEFFREY: What was that text? 00:36:44.47\00:36:45.93 >>TY: Just chapter 15 and verses 3-4, but here's the thing, 00:36:45.93\00:36:50.67 Jeffrey, what you were bringing up before fits perfectly with 00:36:50.67\00:36:53.74 this point because what's happening here in this text is 00:36:53.74\00:37:00.08 that there's a point of resolve, and it's not just resolve in the 00:37:00.08\00:37:03.82 sense that God flexes muscle and might, he doesn't out monster 00:37:03.82\00:37:08.06 the monsters. 00:37:08.06\00:37:09.36 >>DAVID: Oh, come on. 00:37:09.36\00:37:10.86 >>TY: What happens is that God has different ways, different 00:37:10.86\00:37:13.83 methodologies, different principles that he's operating 00:37:13.83\00:37:16.36 by and what kinds of ways are those? 00:37:16.36\00:37:18.93 According to this text, they are just and true ways. 00:37:18.93\00:37:22.60 There are ways, God's ways are ways of justice and truth and 00:37:22.60\00:37:26.41 because of that, this fits with something David was bringing out 00:37:26.41\00:37:32.01 in this scripture in Psalm, how long, adding to the how long in 00:37:32.01\00:37:35.75 Revelation and that is that it takes some time when you don't 00:37:35.75\00:37:41.09 use certain kinds of methods that are more rapid. 00:37:41.09\00:37:44.69 God could just execute everybody, that would be a 00:37:44.69\00:37:48.00 method, that would be a way of resolving evil, but there are 00:37:48.00\00:37:52.90 other ways. 00:37:52.90\00:37:54.34 Rather than using force, what we see taking place, God is using 00:37:54.34\00:37:59.91 the disclosure of truth in real time in history, God is showing 00:37:59.91\00:38:05.28 things. 00:38:05.28\00:38:06.51 He's the, he's revealing things so that people can process and 00:38:06.51\00:38:10.22 pass judgement and the final judgement is... 00:38:10.22\00:38:13.32 >>JEFFREY: Just and true. 00:38:13.32\00:38:14.79 >>TY: ...just and true. 00:38:14.79\00:38:15.69 The way you resolve evil, it was brilliant. 00:38:15.69\00:38:20.30 We're really glad you used that way, your ways and not our ways 00:38:20.30\00:38:24.17 because if it was left up to me, I'd just pull the plug. 00:38:24.17\00:38:27.70 >>JAMES: Which reminds us of the verse in Philippians 2. 00:38:27.70\00:38:31.37 In Philippians 2, it talks about the way God dealt with evil, 00:38:31.37\00:38:34.18 which directs us to the cross, it directs us to God becoming a 00:38:34.18\00:38:37.55 human being, one who was equal with God emptying himself and 00:38:37.55\00:38:40.88 becoming one with us and at the end of this outline of these 7 00:38:40.88\00:38:44.65 steps of humiliation, which ends with the death on the cross, it 00:38:44.65\00:38:48.16 says every knee bows and every tongue confesses, same thing. 00:38:48.16\00:38:51.56 Yeah. 00:38:51.56\00:38:52.99 >>DAVID: One of the questions, sort of the buzz questions 00:38:52.99\00:38:55.93 that's been happening in the political debate here in the 00:38:55.93\00:38:58.30 United States, getting ready in the run-up for the presidential 00:38:58.30\00:39:01.17 election, I don't know if you've caught onto this, but they ask a 00:39:01.17\00:39:03.47 number of candidates over the last year, you know, if you 00:39:03.47\00:39:06.27 could go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler? 00:39:06.27\00:39:09.84 Have you heard this before, they're like asking candidates 00:39:09.84\00:39:11.95 this. 00:39:11.95\00:39:13.15 Would you kill baby Hitler if that was something that was 00:39:13.15\00:39:14.55 available to you? 00:39:14.55\00:39:15.72 It's a classic does the end justify the means question, 00:39:15.72\00:39:17.39 right? 00:39:17.39\00:39:18.62 I didn't know this question was being asked particularly, so my 00:39:18.62\00:39:20.66 son asked me, because they had a conversation about him, my 15 00:39:20.66\00:39:23.06 year old boy. 00:39:23.06\00:39:24.23 They'd had a conversation about it in his class. 00:39:24.23\00:39:26.80 He said, dad, hey, what do you think? 00:39:26.80\00:39:28.20 If you could go back, putting, you know, on me, would you go? 00:39:28.20\00:39:30.70 And you know what my response was? 00:39:30.70\00:39:32.23 God didn't. 00:39:32.23\00:39:35.07 >>TY: He could've and he didn't. 00:39:35.07\00:39:37.57 >>DAVID: Of course he could've. 00:39:37.57\00:39:38.74 >>TY: And he didn't. 00:39:38.74\00:39:39.91 >>DAVID: The resources of omnipotence at his disposal, he 00:39:39.91\00:39:41.61 could've done any such thing, you know, you used the point 00:39:41.61\00:39:44.71 that, total eradication. 00:39:44.71\00:39:46.21 Well, that's a really good way to get rid of the evil. 00:39:46.21\00:39:48.42 You've got termites in your house or ants, hey, let's burn 00:39:48.42\00:39:50.85 the house down, then we don't have any ants. 00:39:50.85\00:39:54.99 I mean, that is a possibility, but what we see in Revelation is 00:39:54.99\00:39:57.33 not force. 00:39:57.33\00:39:59.13 I love the way that you said that, Ty, and I'm gonna tweet 00:39:59.13\00:40:00.80 that later, God does not out monster the monsters. 00:40:00.80\00:40:03.70 He doesn't out violence the violent. 00:40:03.70\00:40:06.17 It's disclosure. 00:40:06.17\00:40:08.04 It's disclosure of truth, it's disclosure of love, it's 00:40:08.04\00:40:12.74 disclosure, as James said, of the incarnation and of God 00:40:12.74\00:40:15.61 becoming vulnerable, which is why the classic symbol of God in 00:40:15.61\00:40:19.85 the text of Revelation is a lamb. 00:40:19.85\00:40:23.08 And not just a lamb, which is already sufficiently vulnerable, 00:40:23.08\00:40:26.92 innocent, weak, a lamb as if it had been slain. 00:40:26.92\00:40:32.06 So, this disclosure of truth and of love ultimately ends up 00:40:32.06\00:40:35.96 reflecting on a disclosure of who God is. 00:40:35.96\00:40:39.90 >>JAMES: Thirty seconds, there's something even deeper here or 00:40:39.90\00:40:41.70 bigger than that, because this is the real issue, in Job 40, 00:40:41.70\00:40:46.44 the same question is asked of Job. 00:40:46.44\00:40:49.04 Do you think that you can handle evil better than me, God says, 00:40:49.04\00:40:53.68 basically. 00:40:53.68\00:40:54.65 Well, go ahead and destroy everyone. 00:40:54.65\00:40:56.58 Wipe out all the wicked, wipe out all the evil, kill all the 00:40:56.58\00:40:58.69 murderers, kill all the liars, and then, I will confess that 00:40:58.69\00:41:01.19 you can save yourself. 00:41:01.19\00:41:02.92 Because where do we stop? 00:41:02.92\00:41:04.76 Where do we, if it wouldn't have been Hitler, would those 00:41:04.76\00:41:07.60 atrocities have happened? 00:41:07.60\00:41:09.00 >>JEFFREY: Anybody who says, I wish God would destroy all evil, 00:41:09.00\00:41:11.23 that's great until you realize that some of the things that God 00:41:11.23\00:41:15.74 deems evil, you yourself would not deem evil. 00:41:15.74\00:41:18.54 >>JAMES: It's like David said, if you're gonna take out all the 00:41:18.54\00:41:21.01 ants by destroying the house, you're gonna destroy everything. 00:41:21.01\00:41:23.31 You're gonna have to take out everything. 00:41:23.31\00:41:25.01 And that's what Job chapter 40 is all about. 00:41:25.01\00:41:26.85 >>TY: Man, I hate to be the party pooper here, but we have 00:41:26.85\00:41:28.35 to stop right there and have another break. 00:41:28.35\00:41:30.15 One more break, we come back and then we can say everything 00:41:30.15\00:41:32.65 that's on our hearts for the final session. 00:41:32.65\00:41:34.46 [Music] 00:41:34.46\00:41:39.53 >>TY: This has been a really fun discussion, we just have one 00:41:39.53\00:41:41.26 segment left, but during the break, we were fleshing out some 00:41:41.26\00:41:44.43 stuff that was pretty fascinating because the fact is, 00:41:44.43\00:41:47.04 we've raised a question, a really significant question 00:41:47.04\00:41:51.24 that, in technical language, is sometimes called the question of 00:41:51.24\00:41:53.61 theodicy. 00:41:53.61\00:41:55.01 The question of theodicy is the justice of God in the face of 00:41:55.01\00:41:58.88 evil. 00:41:58.88\00:42:00.05 So, you got all kinds of horrific stuff going on in the 00:42:00.05\00:42:01.78 world, where is God in all of this? 00:42:01.78\00:42:05.02 And David, you brought up a question that's being asked, 00:42:05.02\00:42:07.59 leading up to the election, actual candidates are being 00:42:07.59\00:42:11.73 asked this question, what is that question? 00:42:11.73\00:42:13.46 >>DAVID: The question is, would you, if you could, kill baby 00:42:13.46\00:42:16.10 Hitler. 00:42:16.10\00:42:17.33 In other words, the idea is, is there a, and therefore, avoid 00:42:17.33\00:42:20.27 the Holocaust? 00:42:20.27\00:42:21.20 >>TY: Yeah. 00:42:21.20\00:42:22.30 >>DAVID: Circumvent the Holocaust, all those people get 00:42:22.30\00:42:23.47 to live, everything's fine. 00:42:23.47\00:42:24.67 Would you do it if you, the nurses walk out of the room, the 00:42:24.67\00:42:26.78 doctors walk out of the room, it's you. 00:42:26.78\00:42:28.28 >>TY: And you know the Holocaust was going to come if the baby 00:42:28.28\00:42:29.91 lived, would you kill baby Hitler >>DAVID: And they're 00:42:29.91\00:42:32.01 asking this of candidates and some are saying yes, some are 00:42:32.01\00:42:34.45 saying I don't know. 00:42:34.45\00:42:35.48 I'm not following who has said what. 00:42:35.48\00:42:37.22 >>JEFFREY: In their view, they may agree or disagree with yes 00:42:37.22\00:42:39.29 or no, and I think the point of Revelation is that, it's a good 00:42:39.29\00:42:41.66 thing that these judgement calls are left, ultimately, in the 00:42:41.66\00:42:46.06 hands of God, right? 00:42:46.06\00:42:47.40 >>TY: But I like the answer that David, during the break, I want 00:42:47.40\00:42:51.23 you to bring this up, because I like the answer you gave, your 00:42:51.23\00:42:53.60 son, Landon, I think it was, actually asked you the question, 00:42:53.60\00:42:57.21 dad, would you? 00:42:57.21\00:42:58.34 And your answer was? 00:42:58.34\00:43:00.21 >>DAVID: That God didn't. 00:43:00.21\00:43:01.78 >>TY: God could've killed baby Hitler and God didn't. 00:43:01.78\00:43:04.75 So... 00:43:04.75\00:43:06.15 >>DAVID: How do we occupy a moral ground that's higher than 00:43:06.15\00:43:09.48 the moral ground that God occupied? 00:43:09.48\00:43:11.32 Right? 00:43:11.32\00:43:12.39 I mean, that's... 00:43:12.39\00:43:13.59 >>TY: That's the question. 00:43:13.59\00:43:14.82 >>DAVID: I think that's what you ended with in Job 40 there, are 00:43:14.82\00:43:15.96 you gonna be more righteous than God? 00:43:15.96\00:43:17.43 Okay, let's do this, Job, that you're gonna find out that that 00:43:17.43\00:43:20.26 extirpation of evil, the eradication of evil, that shows 00:43:20.26\00:43:24.80 up at your door. 00:43:24.80\00:43:25.90 >>JAMES: Yeah, and the implication there in Job is that 00:43:25.90\00:43:28.37 you get rid of that one but then there's another one and there's 00:43:28.37\00:43:31.24 another one and there's another one. 00:43:31.24\00:43:32.54 You get rid of the antiluvians, is that the end of the whole 00:43:32.54\00:43:34.04 thing? 00:43:34.04\00:43:34.88 Think about the antiluvians. 00:43:34.88\00:43:36.24 God, the entire race is gone except for 8 people. 00:43:36.24\00:43:38.98 So, why did we, where did evil come? 00:43:38.98\00:43:41.85 If those people were all God's people and they're all safe, why 00:43:41.85\00:43:44.05 didn't any more evil come? 00:43:44.05\00:43:45.45 So, we're suggesting... 00:43:45.45\00:43:47.56 >>TY: Because Noah was in the mix. 00:43:47.56\00:43:49.09 >>JAMES: We're suggesting that if you get rid of this guy, 00:43:49.09\00:43:50.99 that's not gonna happen. 00:43:50.99\00:43:52.03 That's a conclusion that can't be proven. 00:43:52.03\00:43:54.23 >>DAVID: So, back to the session, before the first 00:43:54.23\00:43:55.60 session, I said that the modern situation that we find ourselves 00:43:55.60\00:43:58.33 in is the radical depersonalization of evil, that 00:43:58.33\00:44:01.67 evil is just a consequence of, and if you can get rid of, oh, 00:44:01.67\00:44:05.47 and then this one, and then this one, but the book of Revelation 00:44:05.47\00:44:07.24 says, uh-uh, there's this ancient serpent called the devil 00:44:07.24\00:44:10.55 of old. 00:44:10.55\00:44:11.65 Satan, that there is a personal, there is a personal, an 00:44:11.65\00:44:16.02 originator, inventor, if you will, of evil, that is 00:44:16.02\00:44:20.59 interacting and moving through, so you get this idea that if 00:44:20.59\00:44:26.86 it's not Hitler, then it's, and if it's not, then it's, then 00:44:26.86\00:44:29.43 it's, then it's. 00:44:29.43\00:44:31.30 >>JEFFREY: But the danger with that would be, it could lead to 00:44:31.30\00:44:33.64 social ambivalence. 00:44:33.64\00:44:35.10 >>DAVID: I get that, I hear that. 00:44:35.10\00:44:36.57 >>TY: Meaning what? 00:44:36.57\00:44:37.74 >>JAMES: It doesn't matter, it's gonna happen anyway. 00:44:37.74\00:44:38.91 >>JEFFREY: It doesn't matter what we do in X situation of 00:44:38.91\00:44:40.51 manifestation of evil in the world because if we were to seek 00:44:40.51\00:44:44.55 to find a solution to that, something else would sprout up, 00:44:44.55\00:44:47.18 something else, something else, so, therefore, let's not do 00:44:47.18\00:44:49.32 anything. 00:44:49.32\00:44:50.52 >>DAVID: Okay, I agree with that, but the question here is 00:44:50.52\00:44:53.92 that human beings, okay, so, it reminds me of when Jesus said, 00:44:53.92\00:44:56.73 hey look, you will always have the poor with you, but right 00:44:56.73\00:44:59.83 now, I'm here and so, have a good time. 00:44:59.83\00:45:01.50 Like, I've wrestled with that, you know, I'm here, celebrate 00:45:01.50\00:45:04.20 the Son of Man is here, I've wrestled with that because Jesus 00:45:04.20\00:45:06.63 is basically, that's almost a resignation, when Jesus says, 00:45:06.63\00:45:10.11 you will always have the poor with you. 00:45:10.11\00:45:11.97 In other words, doesn't that kind of create a kind of social 00:45:11.97\00:45:14.78 ambivalence? 00:45:14.78\00:45:15.94 Hey, you can't get rid of poverty, this will always be the 00:45:15.94\00:45:18.05 case. 00:45:18.05\00:45:18.95 And I've wrestled with that. 00:45:18.95\00:45:20.15 I don't think that anything that we could do could get rid of 00:45:20.15\00:45:23.49 violence, could get rid of terrorism, could get rid of 00:45:23.49\00:45:25.95 evil. 00:45:25.95\00:45:27.02 That's your point about out monstering the monster. 00:45:27.02\00:45:29.26 So, there is a utilitarian way, in the meantime, we have to deal 00:45:29.26\00:45:32.66 with murderous people that drive trucks, we have to deal with 00:45:32.66\00:45:34.76 that. 00:45:34.76\00:45:35.96 But that's not God's methodology and we shouldn't think for a 00:45:35.96\00:45:39.40 moment that we're gonna be like, hey, God, we'll show you how you 00:45:39.40\00:45:42.97 should've sorted this thing out. 00:45:42.97\00:45:44.61 >>TY: Would anybody at this table kill the baby Hitler? 00:45:44.61\00:45:48.84 >>TY: Would anybody at this table kill the baby Hitler? 00:45:48.84\00:45:49.81 Would anybody at this table kill, you've got him in your 00:45:50.05\00:45:52.08 sights, you've got a rifle, would you kill the adult Hitler? 00:45:52.08\00:45:55.12 >>JEFFREY: I cannot say that I would not kill the adult Hitler. 00:45:55.12\00:45:57.72 >>TY: I can't either, I don't know what I would do in that 00:45:57.72\00:45:59.49 instance. 00:45:59.49\00:46:00.79 >>JEFFREY: I cannot say that I would not kill the adult Hitler. 00:46:00.79\00:46:02.89 >>TY: You have a microphone in one hand, you have a gun in the 00:46:02.89\00:46:05.59 other hand, you can preach a sermon to Hitler or you can 00:46:05.59\00:46:07.46 shoot. 00:46:07.46\00:46:08.60 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the same scenario, 00:46:08.60\00:46:10.47 for those of you who are familiar with that story. 00:46:10.47\00:46:13.17 >>DAVID: Lutheran theologian. 00:46:13.17\00:46:14.37 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, WWII, minister, is given the opportunity to 00:46:14.37\00:46:17.14 participate in the assassination of Hitler and so forth and he 00:46:17.14\00:46:20.08 wrestles, he wrestles, he wrestles, and he finally signs 00:46:20.08\00:46:24.21 off on it. 00:46:24.21\00:46:25.41 Clearly, it wasn't successful, but I'm just saying, I'm not 00:46:25.41\00:46:30.19 prepared to say I would not go through with it. 00:46:30.19\00:46:32.42 >>DAVID: And anybody's who's read any of Bonhoeffer's 00:46:32.42\00:46:33.96 writings would know that he believed scripture, he took God 00:46:33.96\00:46:37.19 very seriously. 00:46:37.19\00:46:38.43 One of his great books, The Cost of Discipleship. 00:46:38.43\00:46:40.03 In other words, the point here is that he was a man of God, he 00:46:40.03\00:46:42.90 lost his life eventually in a concentration camp. 00:46:42.90\00:46:45.63 >>JEFFREY: He struggled though. 00:46:45.63\00:46:46.80 >>DAVID: That's my point, he wrestled. 00:46:46.80\00:46:48.30 We shouldn't pretend that it's just like, oh, yeah, that's 00:46:48.30\00:46:50.57 easy, that's my point about resignation, I don't know if you 00:46:50.57\00:46:52.54 get that. 00:46:52.54\00:46:53.78 >>JEFFREY: Well, but the passage you went with, I think that's a 00:46:53.78\00:46:55.91 great point about the passage, Jesus himself speaking, the 00:46:55.91\00:46:59.11 poor, you will always have with you. 00:46:59.11\00:47:00.95 But I feel like you're only allowed to say those kinds of 00:47:00.95\00:47:04.25 statements if your entire life is characterized by ministry and 00:47:04.25\00:47:10.03 by reaching out to the very people that he's identifying. 00:47:10.03\00:47:13.09 You can only say that if that is the mission of your life, look 00:47:13.09\00:47:16.77 at Jesus, look at the page, look at it. 00:47:16.77\00:47:18.40 >>DAVID: Otherwise it creates a social apathy. 00:47:18.40\00:47:19.90 >>JEFFREY: Therefore, only the people who are actively involved 00:47:19.90\00:47:22.77 in making the world a better place can actually speak to that 00:47:22.77\00:47:26.14 sort of thing. 00:47:26.14\00:47:28.41 Otherwise, we are being socially ambivalent as Christians, 00:47:28.41\00:47:30.85 waiting for heaven to do what we have been given the 00:47:30.85\00:47:34.58 responsibility to do. 00:47:34.58\00:47:35.82 >>JAMES: Let's clarify that in the character of God. 00:47:35.82\00:47:37.32 Because we just said here, God didn't, God didn't, God didn't, 00:47:37.32\00:47:39.52 but God will, God will, God will, so we can allow God to not 00:47:39.52\00:47:44.26 destroy baby Hitler or etcetera, etcetera, only because we know 00:47:44.26\00:47:48.16 that ultimately, God will take care. 00:47:48.16\00:47:50.47 He will bring justice to everything. 00:47:50.47\00:47:51.77 There will be justice. 00:47:51.77\00:47:52.53 God will. 00:47:52.53\00:47:53.74 Just like we said that Jesus is the one that's dedicated to 00:47:53.74\00:47:56.10 helping the poor, so he can say that without being ambivalent, 00:47:56.10\00:47:58.07 so we can say that Jesus is saying, justice is mine, I 00:47:58.07\00:48:02.01 revenge, says the Lord. 00:48:02.01\00:48:03.45 And I do think, though, there's a place for resistance of evil. 00:48:03.45\00:48:07.02 And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about 00:48:07.02\00:48:09.62 Bonhoeffer, that's what we're talking about when we're talking 00:48:09.62\00:48:11.65 about the Lord's Prayer. 00:48:11.65\00:48:13.92 >>TY: Wait a minute, when you say resistance of evil, I find 00:48:13.92\00:48:17.56 it interesting, personally, that Jesus is the ultimate example of 00:48:17.56\00:48:21.36 resistance of evil. 00:48:21.36\00:48:23.23 And I don't know if you've seen this or not, I think it's there 00:48:23.23\00:48:28.97 in the text, I'm not totally sure, but I'm almost certain 00:48:28.97\00:48:32.07 that in the sermon on the mount, Jesus is teaching resistance of 00:48:32.07\00:48:35.68 evil, but he's teaching resistance of evil by a certain 00:48:35.68\00:48:40.25 methodology, by a certain way. 00:48:40.25\00:48:42.88 Jesus is teaching resistance of evil with good. 00:48:42.88\00:48:46.82 He's saying, if somebody says, you know, carry my pack, if a 00:48:46.82\00:48:51.26 Roman soldier who was regarded as the enemy of the Israelites, 00:48:51.26\00:48:55.46 and Jesus is teaching Jews at this time, if the Roman soldier 00:48:55.46\00:48:59.33 that you hate says carry my pack one mile, carry it two miles, go 00:48:59.33\00:49:05.94 the extra mile. 00:49:05.94\00:49:06.91 >>JAMES: If he hits you on the right cheek... 00:49:06.91\00:49:08.08 >>TY: If he hits you on the right cheek, turn the other 00:49:08.08\00:49:09.54 cheek. 00:49:09.54\00:49:10.65 Jesus isn't saying, be humiliated and hold your head 00:49:10.65\00:49:15.25 down and put your tail between your legs, Jesus is saying, hold 00:49:15.25\00:49:18.05 your shoulders up and be bigger and stronger than the enemy by 00:49:18.05\00:49:24.23 resisting evil in a way that is superior to the principles that 00:49:24.23\00:49:31.47 are being operated on by the enemy. 00:49:31.47\00:49:34.00 That's resistance of evil. 00:49:34.00\00:49:35.37 >>DAVID: Martin Luther King, Junior, in the nonviolent, the 00:49:35.37\00:49:37.67 civil rights movement. 00:49:37.67\00:49:39.57 On this point, I think it's very important and I just wanna throw 00:49:39.57\00:49:43.81 this out there, when it comes down to Matthew chapter 25, and 00:49:43.81\00:49:46.55 I know this is a series on Revelation, but just very 00:49:46.55\00:49:48.28 quickly, when the separation is finally made between the saved 00:49:48.28\00:49:51.92 and the lost, the sheep and the goats, the righteous and the 00:49:51.92\00:49:54.39 wicked, it's on the grounds that I was naked and you clothed me, 00:49:54.39\00:49:57.93 I was hungry and you fed me, I was in prison and you visited 00:49:57.93\00:50:00.70 me, etcetera. 00:50:00.70\00:50:01.70 So, clearly there is a strong social imperative. 00:50:01.70\00:50:06.30 And it's not just a social imperative in terms of social 00:50:06.30\00:50:08.27 policy, but a strong neighborly, brotherly, good Samaritan 00:50:08.27\00:50:11.44 perspective where evil, and it's not just in the form of baby 00:50:11.44\00:50:14.44 Hitler, but poverty is to be resisted, aggressively, actively 00:50:14.44\00:50:18.85 resisted. 00:50:18.85\00:50:20.02 So, Jesus clearly wasn't...my point here is tying these 00:50:20.02\00:50:21.95 together. 00:50:21.95\00:50:23.12 He wasn't saying, hey, look, you're always gonna have the 00:50:23.12\00:50:24.19 poor with you, so just, it's just gonna be that way. 00:50:24.19\00:50:26.29 A karmic resignation. 00:50:26.29\00:50:28.29 It was like, hey, this is a really terrible thing, war 00:50:28.29\00:50:30.76 against it, war against it. 00:50:30.76\00:50:32.83 And I think Ty's point is, and correct me if I get you wrong 00:50:32.83\00:50:35.13 here, Ty, we can also war against evil that manifests 00:50:35.13\00:50:38.43 itself in the violent way, in the Hitler-esque way, in the 00:50:38.43\00:50:41.44 terrorist way, but the war that we wage is not like 00:50:41.44\00:50:45.31 [shotgun loading sound] for me, it's not that. 00:50:45.31\00:50:49.34 Nations are gonna rise against nations, and there's gonna be 00:50:49.34\00:50:51.88 wars and rumors of wars, that is the condition that the world is 00:50:51.88\00:50:54.82 gonna be in, but Jesus showed a better way, he showed a bigger 00:50:54.82\00:50:58.39 way, and he succumbs to evil, right? 00:50:58.39\00:51:02.36 That's the Philippians thing that you were talking about, 00:51:02.36\00:51:03.99 submits himself, not just to any ordinary death, not just, you 00:51:03.99\00:51:06.19 know, dying in his sleep, the death of a cross, which is a 00:51:06.19\00:51:08.60 cruel instrument of torture. 00:51:08.60\00:51:11.90 He's, in what sense, why is God hanging on a Roman instrument of 00:51:11.90\00:51:16.84 torture? 00:51:16.84\00:51:18.04 He is subjecting himself to evil, and here is the great plot 00:51:18.04\00:51:21.61 twist, the great irony of the gospel, and thereby overcoming 00:51:21.61\00:51:24.58 it. 00:51:24.58\00:51:25.55 >>TY: That's right. 00:51:25.55\00:51:27.02 That's why, he said, himself, in his teachings, his exact words, 00:51:27.02\00:51:31.29 resist not evil. 00:51:31.29\00:51:33.76 I think that the sermon on the mount, what Jesus taught on the 00:51:33.76\00:51:37.76 sermon on the mount is the most difficult, most challenging 00:51:37.76\00:51:41.80 thing that has ever been told to human beings. 00:51:41.80\00:51:44.43 >>DAVID: Agree. 00:51:44.43\00:51:45.67 >>TY: Break the cycle of violence, break the cycle of 00:51:45.67\00:51:48.84 evil by not being toward others the way they are toward you. 00:51:48.84\00:51:52.51 Personally for me, the most difficult theological struggle 00:51:52.51\00:51:59.11 I've ever had, the most difficult philosophical, the 00:51:59.11\00:52:01.88 most difficult struggle I've ever gone through on trying to 00:52:01.88\00:52:06.45 understand and figure something out is this question of how do 00:52:06.45\00:52:09.82 you deal with the evil in the world? 00:52:09.82\00:52:12.13 I'll just say that, for me, one of the things that's been 00:52:12.13\00:52:15.16 helpful is that in scripture, there is a sharp segregation 00:52:15.16\00:52:20.70 that God has made between the civil power and the religious 00:52:20.70\00:52:24.74 power. 00:52:24.74\00:52:26.31 And he said, I'm gonna establish a church and it is not to have a 00:52:26.31\00:52:30.78 military. 00:52:30.78\00:52:31.88 It is not to have police officers, the church is not to 00:52:31.88\00:52:34.62 exercise violence, the church is going to be... 00:52:34.62\00:52:37.19 >>DAVID: That's where the Gentiles operate, he said. 00:52:37.19\00:52:38.59 >>TY: Yeah, the church is going to be a light on the hill, it's 00:52:38.59\00:52:41.66 going to be a light to the nations, it's going to show a 00:52:41.66\00:52:44.39 different social system in the bigger social system that God 00:52:44.39\00:52:48.43 tolerates. 00:52:48.43\00:52:49.90 >>DAVID: Just sitting on a hill. 00:52:49.90\00:52:50.87 >>TY: Yeah. 00:52:50.87\00:52:52.10 God tolerates the civil system as a necessary evil, but make no 00:52:52.10\00:52:54.87 mistake about it, it's evil. 00:52:54.87\00:52:57.01 It's evil, it's wrong. 00:52:57.01\00:52:58.47 It's fundamentally wrong on every level. 00:52:58.47\00:53:02.64 >>JEFFREY: What do you mean by necessary evil? 00:53:02.64\00:53:04.61 >>DAVID: Otherwise, there's total anarchy, you have to have 00:53:04.61\00:53:06.38 some governmental thing. 00:53:06.38\00:53:07.62 >>TY: The civil system is where Paul is saying that, you know, 00:53:07.62\00:53:10.99 his words aren't these exact words, but this is my 00:53:10.99\00:53:13.52 translation, I guess, 'cause I can't think of the exact words, 00:53:13.52\00:53:15.92 where he says, basically, the police force doesn't bear the 00:53:15.92\00:53:18.56 sword in vain. 00:53:18.56\00:53:19.66 Do you remember? 00:53:19.66\00:53:20.86 Okay, yeah, so he's saying, there is a civil system and that 00:53:20.86\00:53:25.77 civil system is ordained of God. 00:53:25.77\00:53:27.44 That civil system is an accommodation of God. 00:53:27.44\00:53:32.17 It's not the highest ideal. 00:53:32.17\00:53:34.24 What is God's highest ideal? 00:53:34.24\00:53:35.48 No violence at all, no crime at all, no murder at all, nothing 00:53:35.48\00:53:38.75 horrible at all going on in the world. 00:53:38.75\00:53:40.72 >>JAMES: So, it's not wrong in every facet of it. 00:53:40.72\00:53:42.05 In other words, God is utilizing it, it is ordained of God, there 00:53:42.05\00:53:45.02 is something, the respect we need to give, we need to pay 00:53:45.02\00:53:47.29 taxes to them and taxes there, we need to recognize they don't 00:53:47.29\00:53:49.06 bear the sword in vain. 00:53:49.06\00:53:50.56 But it's not the ultimate. 00:53:50.56\00:53:52.13 >>TY: Yeah, it's the same way, Paul got that idea, I think, 00:53:52.13\00:53:55.06 from the Old Testament. 00:53:55.06\00:53:56.60 Where God is ordaining, same exact language is used in the 00:53:56.60\00:54:00.84 Old Testament, God is ordaining wicked Babylon to punish Israel. 00:54:00.84\00:54:05.37 >>DAVID: Godly Israel. 00:54:05.37\00:54:06.27 >>TY: And then God turns around. 00:54:06.27\00:54:08.11 >>DAVID: That's why I was saying godly. 00:54:08.11\00:54:09.58 >>TY: Then, God turns around and says, I'm gonna punish you, 00:54:09.58\00:54:14.42 Babylon, for what you just did to Israel, but I just, two steps 00:54:14.42\00:54:16.85 ago, I was saying, I'm using them to punish you but now 00:54:16.85\00:54:19.95 you're in trouble for what you just did that I used... 00:54:19.95\00:54:22.59 >>DAVID: I got it. 00:54:22.59\00:54:23.66 >>TY: It's a system that is fundamentally flawed. 00:54:23.66\00:54:26.90 >>JAMES: Did you get it? 00:54:26.90\00:54:28.03 >>DAVID: So, check this out, at the end of the day, we're 00:54:28.03\00:54:30.87 talking about governance here, that's what you're talking 00:54:30.87\00:54:32.83 about. 00:54:32.83\00:54:33.47 Governance. 00:54:33.47\00:54:34.70 Governance is an accommodation, which is why, and I mentioned 00:54:34.70\00:54:35.94 this just briefly, we went by it, but when we come to the book 00:54:35.94\00:54:39.51 of Revelation, the quintessential, ultimate 00:54:39.51\00:54:42.21 manifestation of God in governance, as a governor, he's 00:54:42.21\00:54:47.25 sitting on a throne. 00:54:47.25\00:54:48.35 I'll just read it here, Revelation chapter 5, we'll get 00:54:48.35\00:54:49.68 there eventually in detail. 00:54:49.68\00:54:51.92 I looked and behold, in the midst of the throne, what's a 00:54:51.92\00:54:55.46 throne for? 00:54:55.46\00:54:56.69 A throne is for ruling, a throne is for governance, where a king 00:54:56.69\00:54:58.76 sits, it's where royalty sits, and of the four living 00:54:58.76\00:55:01.60 creatures, in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb. 00:55:01.60\00:55:04.47 Capital L, Lamb. 00:55:04.47\00:55:05.67 >>TY: Isn't this amazing? 00:55:05.67\00:55:06.47 >>DAVID: And lo, it had been slain. 00:55:06.47\00:55:08.84 >>JEFFREY: The ultimate contradiction. 00:55:08.84\00:55:10.07 >>DAVID: So, this goes back to what you said in Revelation 15, 00:55:10.07\00:55:11.44 thy ways, your ways are just and true. 00:55:11.44\00:55:15.61 This communicates that God, as a Lamb, as a slain Lamb in the 00:55:15.61\00:55:20.45 person of Jesus, that belongs to the way... 00:55:20.45\00:55:23.72 >>TY: God governs. 00:55:23.72\00:55:24.55 >>DAVID: God governs. 00:55:24.55\00:55:25.79 He, to me, this is just like, that is the book of Revelation. 00:55:25.79\00:55:30.43 Who's on the Lamb? 00:55:30.43\00:55:31.49 It's a slain Lamb. 00:55:31.49\00:55:32.73 And it wasn't some nice, neat, dying in his sleep, it's a Roman 00:55:32.73\00:55:35.96 instrument of torture. 00:55:35.96\00:55:37.20 He submits himself to evil and thereby, overcomes it. 00:55:37.20\00:55:39.03 It's a total transmutation, upending of reality as we know 00:55:39.03\00:55:44.14 it. 00:55:44.14\00:55:45.34 And I think our point here, and there's a lot of points that 00:55:45.34\00:55:46.68 we've made is that, it will never be the case that somebody 00:55:46.68\00:55:49.78 will make a weapon big enough. 00:55:49.78\00:55:51.48 I'll tell you a very interesting story, when the Gatling gun was 00:55:51.48\00:55:53.01 first invented, the Gatling gun. 00:55:53.01\00:55:54.62 >>JEFFREY: War to end all wars. 00:55:54.62\00:55:56.32 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's right, the Winchester and others came and 00:55:56.32\00:55:58.39 were like, hey, you can't make this, this'll make war all the 00:55:58.39\00:56:00.99 more terrible. 00:56:00.99\00:56:03.06 It'll be too easy to kill people, to which Gatling 00:56:03.06\00:56:04.89 responded and said, no, this weapon will make war impossible. 00:56:04.89\00:56:08.46 I.E. the idea that death would become so easy, so, that people 00:56:08.46\00:56:12.90 would be like, oh, well, we can't do that anymore, 00:56:12.90\00:56:15.07 let's make peace. 00:56:15.07\00:56:16.54 >>JEFFREY: I think he was kinda wrong. 00:56:16.54\00:56:17.37 >>DAVID: Ya reckon? 00:56:17.37\00:56:18.34 >>TY: Kinda majorly wrong, yeah. 00:56:18.34\00:56:20.01 >>JEFFREY: Slight miscalculation. 00:56:20.01\00:56:21.54 >>DAVID: But the book of Revelation represents God in 00:56:21.54\00:56:23.78 control. 00:56:23.78\00:56:25.01 You have the pastoral element, you have the poetic element, you 00:56:25.01\00:56:27.05 have the prophetic element, but God wins, God wins by 00:56:27.05\00:56:33.66 disclosure, he wins in a way that is himself becoming subject 00:56:33.66\00:56:38.83 to evil and then, overcoming it on another level. 00:56:38.83\00:56:41.76 Not out monstering the monsters. 00:56:41.76\00:56:43.57 >>JAMES: And David, that is Revelation 1, verse 7. 00:56:43.57\00:56:45.63 See, that is the whole point. 00:56:45.63\00:56:47.00 In Revelation 1, verse 7, you have all the earth mourning that 00:56:47.00\00:56:50.67 pierced him. 00:56:50.67\00:56:52.41 You have the cross, you have the submission, you have Christ 00:56:52.41\00:56:56.21 overcoming evil, God overcoming evil, and then, you have 00:56:56.21\00:56:59.01 accountability, you have justice taking place and so, Revelation 00:56:59.01\00:57:02.02 5 impacts all of that, Revelation 6, 7, 8, all of the 00:57:02.02\00:57:05.25 chapters of Revelation unpack verse 7, but God can't wait 'til 00:57:05.25\00:57:08.16 we get to chapter 2 or chapter 3 or chapter 4 or chapter 5, he 00:57:08.16\00:57:11.09 introduces it right at the very beginning. 00:57:11.09\00:57:14.00 He's laying down the principles, he's laying down the 00:57:14.00\00:57:16.60 foundations. 00:57:16.60\00:57:17.83 He's talking about the cross and he's talking about justice, he's 00:57:17.83\00:57:19.90 equalizing the ground, he's telling the world right now, if 00:57:19.90\00:57:22.64 they don't get past verse 7, they've at least got the idea in 00:57:22.64\00:57:25.37 their brain. 00:57:25.37\00:57:26.57 >>JEFFREY: I was thinking of verse 9, actually, I, John, both 00:57:26.57\00:57:27.81 your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and 00:57:27.81\00:57:31.01 patience of Jesus Christ, am on the Island of Patmos. 00:57:31.01\00:57:35.22 In other words, the way, you've been describing the way God 00:57:35.22\00:57:37.62 deals with evil and the implication here is, I, John, am 00:57:37.62\00:57:42.86 experiencing the tribulation of Jesus Christ. 00:57:42.86\00:57:45.73 In other words, there's a union between, this is what Jesus went 00:57:45.73\00:57:48.86 through and how he responded, and now, I, John, am in the same 00:57:48.86\00:57:53.27 position. 00:57:53.27\00:57:54.30 So, I guess I'm trying to say the implication... 00:57:54.30\00:57:56.34 >>DAVID: Of persecution. 00:57:56.34\00:57:57.57 >>JEFFREY: Of persecution, the implication is that the church 00:57:57.57\00:57:59.41 now postures itself in the same way Christ did in relation to 00:57:59.41\00:58:04.88 evil. 00:58:04.88\00:58:05.68 >>DAVID: As subject to evil empires. 00:58:05.68\00:58:07.02 >>JEFFREY: Yeah. 00:58:07.02\00:58:08.12 >>TY: Okay, we have one minute left, one minute left. 00:58:08.12\00:58:09.78 In a sentence, what is the book of Revelation about, James? 00:58:09.78\00:58:14.22 >>JAMES: Well, Revelation is about a God who has been, is, 00:58:14.22\00:58:16.89 and will always be with us through our suffering, through 00:58:16.89\00:58:19.33 our pain, through our evil, he's there. 00:58:19.33\00:58:20.80 He senses it, he feels it, and the cross tells us that and the 00:58:20.80\00:58:23.26 cross also tells us that there's gonna be a victory and there's 00:58:23.26\00:58:25.97 gonna be a day of accounting. 00:58:25.97\00:58:27.54 >>TY: Jeffrey, in a sentence, what is the book of Revelation 00:58:27.54\00:58:29.14 about? 00:58:29.14\00:58:30.11 >>JEFFREY: It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ. 00:58:30.11\00:58:31.34 It's not just a mystic visions, it's about a person that unfolds 00:58:31.34\00:58:35.71 in history. 00:58:35.71\00:58:36.68 >>TY: That was two sentences, I gave you one. 00:58:36.68\00:58:37.88 David, one sentence. 00:58:37.88\00:58:39.11 >>DAVID: The book of Revelation is about God's ultimate triumph 00:58:39.11\00:58:41.15 over evil and the execution of his plan for truth and love to 00:58:41.15\00:58:45.89 prosper. 00:58:45.89\00:58:46.79 >>TY: Praise God. 00:58:46.79\00:58:48.02 My closing sentence, the book of Revelation is a disclosure of 00:58:48.02\00:58:52.79 how God conquers evil, finally and fully so that it will never, 00:58:52.79\00:58:57.87 ever raise its ugly head again through all the eternal ages 00:58:57.87\00:59:02.60 future. 00:59:02.60\00:59:03.81 This has been a great discussion. 00:59:03.81\00:59:05.11 >>DAVID: I've loved it. 00:59:05.11\00:59:05.87 [Music] 00:59:05.87\00:59:08.94 >>DAVID: I've loved it. 00:59:08.94\00:59:09.21 [Music] 00:59:09.21\00:59:09.24