[Music]
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[Music]
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>>TY: Studying the bible
with you guys is just really fun
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and enlightening.
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It's edifying.
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Table Talk is
exhilarating, amazing.
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>>DAVID: I was trying to
come up with another one.
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>>TY: Table Talk
is a great format.
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The reason I like it so much,
personally, and I think you
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guys concur with this
is, it has a history with the
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Protestant reformation.
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Martin Luther actually
established a Table Talk
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format, and it wasn't just out
of nowhere that he did it, it
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was based on a shift in
history and the shift in
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history was that people were
realizing that they had equal
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access to God, to his
word, and that people could sit
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around a table.
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The table implies equality.
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It implies that you don't have
to have somebody between you
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and God, all minds can
be brought to the table, all
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minds can be brought to the
text, all minds are welcome to
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study scripture and to
understand what it's talking
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about.
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So, Table Talk is
powerful in that regard.
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We've actually had a few
people, there's four guys in
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Australia, for example,
who started, I don't know what
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they're calling it, like,
Australia Table Talk or Table
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Talk Down Under or
Table Talk Aus or something.
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It's just really cool that
people, and I've heard other
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reports of people who
have told me, yeah, we're just
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doing that in our home.
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We're just getting together
with a few friends and we're
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doing our own Table Talk.
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That's pretty exciting.
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>>DAVID: And there's also
some people that they just watch
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it, like, it's a small group
for them or they do it as a
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Wednesday night bible study
for their church or something,
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they sit down and they listen
in with their bibles in hand.
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I just imagine, I've had
people say, I just imagine I'm
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at the table.
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>>TY: Yeah, yeah.
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>>DAVID: And if
there's a group of us that have
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something we wanna say, we
just hit pause >>TY: and talk
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and they just talk.
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>>TY: I had a lady come to
me at a speaking event recently,
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she looked to me like she
was probably in her 70s and she
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said, I enjoy that Table
Talk program so much because, my
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whole life, I've been a
Christian, this is what she
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told me, I've been a Christian
my whole life and I never get
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anything out of sermons.
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But I learn so much...
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>>DAVID: Because
of the interaction.
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>>TY: Because of the
interaction, listening to the
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discussion.
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>>DAVID: When you opened
with the point about how this
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forum, this way of
doing study, this way of doing
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Christianity and of connecting
with God is born out of the
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protestant reformation,
there's a term that we often,
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that's sometimes used
for that, and that's the
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priesthood of all believers.
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So, we don't need a priest
or a pastor or a scholar to come
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in to say, hey, please, show
us thy ways, we can just sit
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down with fair minds, as
you said, open minds, with the
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text of scripture and
familiarize ourselves with
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what God has revealed.
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>>JEFFREY: Everyone
contributes and it's a
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community.
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>>TY: And it's a good
process because it requires
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submission, it
requires humility, you're not an
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authority figure, I'm not
an authority figure, we're
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friends in Christ, comparing
thoughts, we can disagree,
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which means you have to
concede, though, you have to
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concede.
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You can learn
things from others.
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It's just a great process,
we enjoy it thoroughly, I enjoy
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doing it with you guys
and I know a lot of people are
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taking this process themselves.
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So, where are we at?
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We've come through a lot of
Revelation and now, we're in
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chapter 11.
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>>DAVID: So, to remind
ourselves of where we're at
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and to remind our viewers,
we've got the cycles, the
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seven churches, seven seals,
seven trumpets, covering the
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same ground.
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Remember, we used the walking
across, driving across, flying
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across,
covering the same ground.
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We spent time in Revelation
chapter 10, the last time we
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were together.
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That is the, that
parenthetical statement, that
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interlude in the last of
the trumpets, which grows out of
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Revelation 9.
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So, we're there, we're
basically halfway through it.
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We did Revelation 10,
the sweet book, bitter in the
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belly, you must prophesy
again, which gets us right up
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to Revelation 11, which is
like the second half of that
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parenthetical statement.
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Now, because Revelation
consists of such a depth of
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material and a breadth of
material, we don't have time
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to go into every chapter
with the same kind of depth, for
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example, that we
did in Revelation 10.
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We're coming right up to what
many regarded, and I know all
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of us right here at this table
regard, as the centerpiece,
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the highlight, the
summit of the entire book.
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The interpretive lens, the
glasses through which all of
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the book of Revelation is
viewed, and that's Revelation
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12, 13, and 14.
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But before we get there, we're
just right on the verge of it,
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we're right on the cusp of
spilling up, you know, we're
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gonna summit the mountain.
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And I was gonna say,
spilling over into this amazing
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section, we've
got Revelation 11.
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Which, like Revelation 10,
is another, not easy, fairly
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complicated, but very
important passage of scripture
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that I think we have to spend
at least some time on, a few
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minutes, to get a feel for
what sets up Revelation 12,
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13, and 14.
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I know you've done
some study on this, Jeffrey.
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>>JEFFREY: Well, we ended
chapter 10 with, go prophesy
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again to many peoples and we
broke down how chapter 10 was
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in reference to the writings
of Daniel, which were in
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reference to prophecy in time
to the temple in heaven and to
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this scene that was
taking place in the judgement.
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In chapter 11, there's this
segue from that scene, and it
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says in verse 1, I was given
a reed, like a measuring rod,
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and the angle stood, saying,
rise and measure the temple of
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God, the altar and
those who worship there.
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So, immediately, chapter 11
begins with measuring taking
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place and it has to do
with the temple of God.
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>>TY: Which makes sense
because we saw in chapter 10
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that the eating of the little
book had to do with the temple
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of God in the sense that
it was about the prophecy in
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Daniel chapter 8, verse
14, unto 2,300 days, then shall
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the sanctuary, the temple,
be cleansed, or made right, or
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the system that was
under attack will begin to be
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rectified and brought
to rights in the world and
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people's understanding.
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So, we left off in
chapter 10 with temple language.
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The focus is on that temple.
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Now, when we come to chapter
11 and we open with measure
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the temple.
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>>JEFFREY: Continuity.
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>>TY: Continuity.
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There's a
connection between the two.
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So, what's met by
measure the temple?
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>>JAMES: Well, we have in
Revelation chapter 4 and 5,
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remember the throne set in
heaven and we identified that
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God's character
is under scrutiny.
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And really, when we look at
the big picture of the great
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controversy, and the idea that
God has put himself out there
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and he's answered the question
about, well, if God is love,
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why all this pain and suffering?
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Why this sealed mystery
of all this woe, how long?
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When we look at that in the
context of Revelation chapter
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11, we're actually being
invited by God to measure him.
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The word measure means to judge.
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Judge or measure me.
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Measure the temple of God
is the place where God dwells.
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Measure the altar, the altar.
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>>TY: Wow, that's interesting.
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>>JAMES: Yeah, the altar is
a representation of the cross.
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The altar is the symbol in
the courtyard of the sanctuary
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where the Lamb was offered.
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And so, what God is saying
is, he's saying, measure me and
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measure my love for the world.
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And in the context of
that, your response to that
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revelation of who I am and
what I've done for you will be
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measured.
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>>TY: So, would you think
it would be okay to use as a
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synonym for the word
measure, the word evaluate?
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>>JAMES: Evaluate is a good
one, the word actually means
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to judge.
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It actually means that,
it means to judge, and the
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interesting thing about this
is, it comes right in the wake
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of the Millerite movement.
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The Millerites discovered
that the sanctuary was not the
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earth, but was heaven and
Christ was moving into the
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final aspect, the final work
of mediation in the heavenly
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sanctuary.
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And therefore, the call
to measure God is to see what
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Christ is doing in the
heavenly sanctuary and to
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realize or understand
his great sacrifice for us.
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And then, for us to be
measured in our response to
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that.
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So, it's a perfect fit,
really, these two verses are a
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perfect fit to what's happened
in the preceding chapter.
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>>JEFFREY: It's like a pause.
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Go prophesy again, at the
end of chapter 10, there's this
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movement, when they recover
from their disappointment,
00:08:50.46\00:08:53.26
from their bitterness
of misunderstanding God's
00:08:53.26\00:08:55.86
activity in the heavenly temple.
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Then, there's a
call, go prophesy again.
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And then, in chapter 11,
it's as if the vision stops and
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backs up, first of
all, to give us a context,
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historically, of what this
movement is prophesying into.
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So, chapter 11 is like
painting a picture of the kind
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of world that this movement is
communicating the character of
00:09:18.45\00:09:22.19
God in.
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It's explaining.
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Yeah, so there's some activity
happening in chapter 11, David
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mentioned, we can't get into
everything, but immediately,
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we see there's two witnesses
here, two witnesses, and these
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two witnesses are killed.
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>>TY: What verse are you in?
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>>JEFFREY: Well...
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>>JAMES: Verse 3 and
then verse 4 and then verse 5.
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>>JEFFREY: Yeah.
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>>JAMES: And 6 and 7.
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>>JEFFREY: And
the whole chapter.
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I was thinking specifically
verse 7, where this beast
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comes out of the bottomless
pit and makes war against
00:09:48.08\00:09:51.89
them, overcomes them,
kills them, them being the two
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witnesses, so who
are these two witnesses?
00:09:55.39\00:09:57.39
>>TY: Yeah, so let's pause.
00:09:57.39\00:09:58.63
We have two symbols
here that we need to unravel.
00:09:58.63\00:10:01.53
The beast and the two witnesses.
00:10:01.53\00:10:03.60
>>JAMES: So, really,
when you look at this...
00:10:03.60\00:10:05.60
>>DAVID: Well, three
really, because you have the
00:10:05.60\00:10:07.60
bottomless pit, as well.
00:10:07.60\00:10:08.84
>>TY: Okay, the beast, the two
witnesses, and the bottomless
00:10:08.84\00:10:10.67
pit are three symbols
here that need to be cracked.
00:10:10.67\00:10:13.58
>>JAMES: Yeah, the two
witnesses represent the Old
00:10:13.58\00:10:15.58
and New Testament.
00:10:15.58\00:10:16.71
And the reason why they're
significant is because they
00:10:16.71\00:10:18.95
are that which testify of God.
00:10:18.95\00:10:20.75
It's in the bible that we get
this picture of who God really
00:10:20.75\00:10:23.55
is and if we're gonna measure
God, that measurement is gonna
00:10:23.55\00:10:26.05
take place through our
understanding of the word of
00:10:26.05\00:10:28.89
God.
00:10:28.89\00:10:30.39
So, these guys are witnessing
but they're witnessing, it
00:10:30.39\00:10:32.29
says, clothed in sack cloth.
00:10:32.29\00:10:33.66
They're witnessing in a
time when there's a lot of
00:10:33.66\00:10:35.66
affliction taking place.
00:10:35.66\00:10:37.77
Sack cloth, mourning, weeping,
persecution, and at the end of
00:10:37.77\00:10:42.84
this period of mourning
or darkness, where they're in
00:10:42.84\00:10:45.74
this affliction, they're
actually gonna be killed by
00:10:45.74\00:10:47.64
this beast and the beast,
in prophecy, represents an
00:10:47.64\00:10:50.81
earthly kingdom or power.
00:10:50.81\00:10:52.28
>>TY: We know that, just
for those who are sitting in on
00:10:52.28\00:10:55.05
the study, from
Daniel chapter 7.
00:10:55.05\00:10:57.99
Explicitly tells us that a
beast, which you could just
00:10:57.99\00:11:01.16
translate it as animal, beast
sounds beastly, just an animal
00:11:01.16\00:11:05.89
represents a kingdom, like,
we have the American eagle, the
00:11:05.89\00:11:08.93
Russian bear, same type of idea.
00:11:08.93\00:11:11.17
>>JEFFREY: Political entity.
00:11:11.17\00:11:12.47
>>JAMES: What's incredible
about this prophecy is that it
00:11:12.47\00:11:14.64
was, there was an event that
took place in the late 1700s
00:11:14.64\00:11:19.51
that perfectly
fulfilled this prophecy.
00:11:19.51\00:11:21.68
There was a kingdom or a power
that rose up in, it says here
00:11:21.68\00:11:25.58
that this beast rose up out
of the bottomless pit out of
00:11:25.58\00:11:28.42
darkness and confusion because
the bottomless pit in the
00:11:28.42\00:11:31.55
Greek is the abyso or the
abyss, it represents the earth
00:11:31.55\00:11:34.99
in a state of darkness
or confusion, but there was
00:11:34.99\00:11:37.66
darkness and confusion one
specific country in Europe,
00:11:37.66\00:11:41.00
one of the 10 nations, so the
country in Europe was France,
00:11:41.00\00:11:45.97
and in this country, it
got dark, because what happened
00:11:45.97\00:11:48.90
was people basically, it's
called the French revolution,
00:11:48.90\00:11:51.44
people rose up
against king and priest.
00:11:51.44\00:11:55.78
And what it was, was God
had been misrepresented by the
00:11:55.78\00:11:58.78
religion of France and by
the religion of Europe at the
00:11:58.78\00:12:02.08
time.
00:12:02.08\00:12:03.05
>>TY: By the marriage
of religion with politics.
00:12:03.05\00:12:05.15
>>DAVID: In the medieval period.
00:12:05.15\00:12:07.16
>>JAMES: And people rose
up and they just tossed the
00:12:07.16\00:12:09.96
bible.
00:12:09.96\00:12:11.19
They tossed the two witnesses,
literally, in the streets and
00:12:11.19\00:12:13.03
burned them, killed it,
destroyed it, they became an
00:12:13.03\00:12:15.36
atheistic nation.
00:12:15.36\00:12:16.43
That's why it uses the
symbolism here of Egypt and
00:12:16.43\00:12:19.40
where our Lord was crucified
because Egypt represents an
00:12:19.40\00:12:22.10
atheistic power.
00:12:22.10\00:12:23.10
>>JEFFREY: Verse 8.
00:12:23.10\00:12:24.34
>>JAMES: Yeah, Exodus 5:2, who
is God that I should obey his
00:12:24.34\00:12:26.54
voice and let his people know?
00:12:26.54\00:12:27.54
>>TY: I don't know this God.
00:12:27.54\00:12:29.54
>>JAMES: I don't know this God.
00:12:29.54\00:12:31.18
So, that symbolism ploy to
bring us back to the history
00:12:31.18\00:12:33.52
of the Old Testament, to
bring us back to this atheistic
00:12:33.52\00:12:36.18
power that denied God and
then, we fast-forward to the
00:12:36.18\00:12:38.99
history of atheism in France
where the people rose up and
00:12:38.99\00:12:42.22
rebelled and kicked out
the monarchs and kicked out the
00:12:42.22\00:12:45.76
church.
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.00
>>TY: Did more than kick out,
man, they were, it was just a
00:12:47.00\00:12:48.73
bloodbath.
00:12:48.73\00:12:49.90
>>JAMES: And in the context
of that, the bible itself was
00:12:49.90\00:12:53.64
burned in the streets.
00:12:53.64\00:12:54.80
So, this is the history of
the French revolution that is
00:12:54.80\00:12:57.24
summarized in these verses,
and like Jeffrey said, the
00:12:57.24\00:13:00.14
reason why it's important
is because it gives us the
00:13:00.14\00:13:03.85
environment in which this
movement is going to preach
00:13:03.85\00:13:08.88
out of this.
00:13:08.88\00:13:10.09
This is the environment of
the earth, this is what's taking
00:13:10.09\00:13:11.89
place in the earth when this
movement begins to rise up and
00:13:11.89\00:13:14.46
proclaim this message
of the judgement hour.
00:13:14.46\00:13:17.53
>>DAVID: And we should
say, at least, for me, it's very
00:13:17.53\00:13:20.16
helpful to realize that
when the French revolution was
00:13:20.16\00:13:22.83
taking place against king
and against priest, against
00:13:22.83\00:13:26.07
religion and against the civil
power, this was not against a
00:13:26.07\00:13:30.44
fairly and biblically
represented God, this was
00:13:30.44\00:13:34.01
against a religious system
that was so perverted and so
00:13:34.01\00:13:37.08
skewed and obvoscated, the
God of scripture, what they
00:13:37.08\00:13:41.48
thought they were
warring against was scripture.
00:13:41.48\00:13:43.49
What they thought they
were antagonistic against or
00:13:43.49\00:13:45.75
frustrated with was scripture
and the God of scripture, but
00:13:45.75\00:13:48.06
it was actually a perversion,
a gross misrepresentation of
00:13:48.06\00:13:51.36
who and what God actually is.
00:13:51.36\00:13:52.53
>>JAMES: That's exactly why
the verse, in verse 11 says,
00:13:52.53\00:13:56.20
measure me.
00:13:56.20\00:13:57.90
Examine me, evaluate me.
00:13:57.90\00:13:59.37
Check me out.
00:13:59.37\00:14:00.57
>>JEFFREY: I was gonna say
also that that's implied in
00:14:00.57\00:14:02.37
verse 3, because the two
witnesses are in sack cloth,
00:14:02.37\00:14:05.14
right?
00:14:05.14\00:14:06.14
So, clearly, the
word of God is mourning.
00:14:06.14\00:14:08.14
Well, what's the
word of God mourning?
00:14:08.14\00:14:10.15
>>JAMES: Good point.
00:14:10.15\00:14:11.31
>>JEFFREY: The word of God
is mourning, there's a gross
00:14:11.31\00:14:13.15
misrepresentation of God and
of the witnesses, and so, this
00:14:13.15\00:14:16.99
misrepresentation paints a
certain picture of God that
00:14:16.99\00:14:20.92
elicits this reaction, this
allergic reaction from one of
00:14:20.92\00:14:25.13
the most sophisticated, modern
societies of the time and they
00:14:25.13\00:14:28.93
decide, we want
nothing to do with God.
00:14:28.93\00:14:31.07
And so, that's
really the historical.
00:14:31.07\00:14:33.07
>>TY: Maybe we want nothing
to do with God, and we've put it
00:14:33.07\00:14:35.40
in quote marks
because, essentially, what we're
00:14:35.40\00:14:37.54
suggesting is you have
historical developments that
00:14:37.54\00:14:40.58
are taking place here in
which God has been so grossly
00:14:40.58\00:14:44.55
misrepresented and uglified
in people's understanding that
00:14:44.55\00:14:49.68
atheism was not born in the
modern world as a scientific
00:14:49.68\00:14:53.92
atheism.
00:14:53.92\00:14:54.99
It wasn't a scientific
movement until 100-150 years
00:14:54.99\00:14:57.93
later, it wasn't atheism
on the premise of evolutionary
00:14:57.93\00:15:02.26
theory, some of that
was starting to develop in
00:15:02.26\00:15:05.50
people's thinking, but it
was what some historians have
00:15:05.50\00:15:08.57
referred to as
a protest atheism.
00:15:08.57\00:15:11.11
It wasn't, I don't believe in
God because biology proves God
00:15:11.11\00:15:15.64
doesn't exist, it's I
don't believe in God because if
00:15:15.64\00:15:19.91
that's what God is like, I
can't get my mind and my heart
00:15:19.91\00:15:24.32
to the worship of the monster
that has reigned over the
00:15:24.32\00:15:29.29
world through
the medieval church.
00:15:29.29\00:15:31.66
>>JEFFREY: And some,
the viewer might say, well,
00:15:31.66\00:15:33.66
there's always been atheists,
there's always been people who
00:15:33.66\00:15:35.63
didn't believe in God,
but this is pointing to a
00:15:35.63\00:15:38.07
significant moment in history,
and this is the first time in
00:15:38.07\00:15:42.00
history where a political
entity, where nation proper
00:15:42.00\00:15:45.54
votes into legislation
that there is no God.
00:15:45.54\00:15:48.94
>>TY: There
literally was a voted law.
00:15:48.94\00:15:52.48
We vote God out of existence.
00:15:52.48\00:15:54.88
>>JEFFREY: In fact, in
1793, the French Assembly
00:15:54.88\00:15:57.82
specifically voted against
the bible, outlawed the bible,
00:15:57.82\00:16:02.69
burned bibles and so
forth, that's really what's
00:16:02.69\00:16:05.49
happening.
00:16:05.49\00:16:06.66
>>DAVID: And we should say,
again, to belaver the point,
00:16:06.66\00:16:09.43
in fairness to the people
that were making that decision,
00:16:09.43\00:16:12.20
they were rebelling against a
system that had misrepresented
00:16:12.20\00:16:15.74
who and what God was and
the vast majority of what they
00:16:15.74\00:16:19.87
were rebelling against was
deservedly rebelled against.
00:16:19.87\00:16:23.75
>>JEFFREY: We ourselves
would've rebelled against.
00:16:23.75\00:16:25.75
>>DAVID: Exactly.
00:16:25.75\00:16:26.85
The danger is, is that in
the pendulous nature that is
00:16:26.85\00:16:28.98
humanity and that is human
history, rather than swinging
00:16:28.98\00:16:32.35
to the center and saying,
hey, there's a misrepresentation
00:16:32.35\00:16:34.76
here, I've read the text
myself, it was just to throw
00:16:34.76\00:16:37.43
the whole thing out and
to just spurn God full stop.
00:16:37.43\00:16:41.70
Not your misrepresentation
of God, not this portrait that
00:16:41.70\00:16:45.37
you've been
painting, but just God.
00:16:45.37\00:16:47.37
>>TY: Well, it was just
assumed that, the church, if
00:16:47.37\00:16:49.77
anybody, knows...
00:16:49.77\00:16:50.77
>>DAVID: Who knows
what's in that book?
00:16:50.77\00:16:52.77
It's gotta be the church.
00:16:52.77\00:16:53.84
>>TY: The church is the
authority and the way you've
00:16:53.84\00:16:55.78
represented it, I
can't possibly believe it.
00:16:55.78\00:16:57.78
>>JEFFREY: Especially the fact
that, during that period, the
00:16:57.78\00:17:00.22
bible was kept away
from the people, so.
00:17:00.22\00:17:02.22
>>JAMES: Alright, so now we've
done overtime on Revelation
00:17:02.22\00:17:04.95
11, we've gone over our time.
00:17:04.95\00:17:06.15
This is a perfect segue into
Revelation 12 and this is why
00:17:06.15\00:17:10.56
it's a perfect segue, because
in Revelation chapter 12, we
00:17:10.56\00:17:13.13
get to the top of the summit,
we put on the lenses, and all
00:17:13.13\00:17:15.86
of a sudden, we see
that the whole issue of
00:17:15.86\00:17:19.17
misrepresentation of God's
character began not on planet
00:17:19.17\00:17:22.77
earth, but in heaven.
00:17:22.77\00:17:23.97
It began with this dragon
that has misrepresented God from
00:17:23.97\00:17:27.54
the very beginning.
00:17:27.54\00:17:28.74
So, now, it's as though John
is saying, okay, wait a minute
00:17:28.74\00:17:30.61
now, all of this history that
we've been looking at and all
00:17:30.61\00:17:32.85
of this misrepresentation,
here's where it all started
00:17:32.85\00:17:35.55
and here's where
it's going to end.
00:17:35.55\00:17:38.19
So, as we move into this next
chapter, it's all gonna come
00:17:38.19\00:17:40.86
together.
00:17:40.86\00:17:42.09
>>TY: And we'll do that right
after the break, so let's push
00:17:42.09\00:17:43.39
the pause button.
00:17:43.39\00:17:44.86
>>JEFFREY: That was hot.
00:17:44.86\00:17:46.53
[Music]
00:17:46.53\00:17:57.51
>>This is the story of
Niyima, who took a bus to the
00:17:57.51\00:18:01.11
doctor and found a piece of
paper with words of hope about
00:18:01.11\00:18:06.61
Jesus, which was left by a
church member who unpacked a
00:18:06.61\00:18:10.35
box that came from a
truck which drove in from Durban
00:18:10.35\00:18:14.96
where a ship was docked
that sailed from Seattle, loaded
00:18:14.96\00:18:18.99
with containers stacked
high with millions of tracts,
00:18:18.99\00:18:23.03
trucked in from the
Light Bearers Publishing House,
00:18:23.03\00:18:26.40
where more than 600 million
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00:18:26.40\00:18:29.94
have been
printed in 42 languages.
00:18:29.94\00:18:33.41
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00:18:33.41\00:18:36.81
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00:18:36.81\00:18:41.52
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00:18:41.52\00:18:46.19
Every day, millions of people
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But at just 5 cents apiece,
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00:19:07.74\00:19:13.11
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00:19:13.11\00:19:17.05
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00:19:17.05\00:19:21.96
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00:19:21.96\00:19:25.26
And the story continues.
00:19:25.26\00:19:27.96
Five cents doesn't buy a lot
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00:19:27.96\00:19:32.50
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00:19:32.50\00:19:35.14
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[Music]
00:20:10.81\00:20:17.31
>>TY: We came to a really
good conclusion with chapter
00:20:17.31\00:20:21.02
11, in that final comment you
made, James, before the break,
00:20:21.02\00:20:25.45
because what you essentially
did was point out that all the
00:20:25.45\00:20:29.32
mess that's going on in the
French Revolution and in human
00:20:29.32\00:20:33.43
history in general, where
people are struggling with the
00:20:33.43\00:20:37.43
existence and the character
of God, you suggested that when
00:20:37.43\00:20:40.94
we come to chapter 12 now,
that all of that's traceable
00:20:40.94\00:20:45.01
back to an original
misrepresentation of God's
00:20:45.01\00:20:48.81
character.
00:20:48.81\00:20:49.81
So, here's where we're at.
00:20:49.81\00:20:50.95
The parenthetical statement,
the interlude that we just
00:20:50.95\00:20:55.42
covered in chapter 10
in the last segment of our
00:20:55.42\00:21:00.96
discussion, in the last
discussion we had and then,
00:21:00.96\00:21:04.09
chapter 11 is now
closing off the interlude or the
00:21:04.09\00:21:07.40
parenthetical statement.
00:21:07.40\00:21:08.86
So, now, we're entering
into the fourth cycle, or the
00:21:08.86\00:21:12.83
fourth swath of history
that backs up again to first
00:21:12.83\00:21:16.27
century and then moves
straightforward from that
00:21:16.27\00:21:19.17
point, we have the seven
churches, the seven seals, the
00:21:19.17\00:21:22.88
seven trumpets, we just
dealt with the interlude in the
00:21:22.88\00:21:26.78
trumpets, chapters 10 and 11,
and now, we're in chapter 12,
00:21:26.78\00:21:31.69
we've come to the mountaintop,
the pinnacle of Revelation, by
00:21:31.69\00:21:37.33
the way, we didn't mention
that the book of Revelation is
00:21:37.33\00:21:40.26
written as a cayastic
structure, or in the shape of
00:21:40.26\00:21:43.43
a mountain.
00:21:43.43\00:21:44.40
Deliberately, John has
constructed the book of
00:21:44.40\00:21:47.04
Revelation in a poetic form
in order to drive attention to
00:21:47.04\00:21:51.74
chapters 12-14, in order to
give us chapters 12-14 as the
00:21:51.74\00:21:58.38
interpretive lens for all
the other prophecies that are
00:21:58.38\00:22:03.45
taking place in Revelation.
00:22:03.45\00:22:04.82
So, we're in chapter 12 now.
00:22:04.82\00:22:05.99
>>DAVID: And we should
just say that's not our opinion,
00:22:05.99\00:22:07.82
there are great textual
evidences for that notion
00:22:07.82\00:22:09.89
that'll come out as we
get into 12, 13, and 14, that
00:22:09.89\00:22:14.00
you'll see that, you know,
you're at the summit, you're
00:22:14.00\00:22:16.06
looking down this way, back
to Revelation 1 to 11, and then
00:22:16.06\00:22:20.57
you're gonna be looking this
way down from Revelation 22 to
00:22:20.57\00:22:23.64
Revelation 15, that you,
this gives you that broad
00:22:23.64\00:22:27.58
perspective that
only a summit can.
00:22:27.58\00:22:30.15
You're here and like, ah,
so, this is what's going on.
00:22:30.15\00:22:33.45
>>TY: So, in Revelation
12, there are a lot of symbols,
00:22:33.45\00:22:39.25
but there are 3 basic
symbols to be interpreted.
00:22:39.25\00:22:41.96
There's a woman, there is
a child that the woman gives
00:22:41.96\00:22:45.99
birth to, and there is a dragon.
00:22:45.99\00:22:48.56
These are the three main
symbols in Revelation chapter
00:22:48.56\00:22:52.53
12.
00:22:52.53\00:22:53.57
So, let's just start
with verse 1 of chapter 12.
00:22:53.57\00:22:56.87
Now, a great sign, or a symbol
appeared in heaven, a woman
00:22:56.87\00:23:02.61
clothed with the sun, with
the moon under her feet, and on
00:23:02.61\00:23:07.48
her head, a garland of 12 stars.
00:23:07.48\00:23:11.29
Then, verse 2, being with
child, she cried out in labor
00:23:11.29\00:23:16.59
and in pain to give birth.
00:23:16.59\00:23:19.46
So, the first two verses,
we have this woman, she's
00:23:19.46\00:23:21.56
obviously pregnant, she's in
labor pains and this woman is
00:23:21.56\00:23:25.57
about to bring a
child into the world.
00:23:25.57\00:23:28.77
This woman is described
with certain symbolic markers.
00:23:28.77\00:23:33.61
She's clothed with the
sun, she has the moon under her
00:23:33.61\00:23:35.38
feet.
00:23:35.38\00:23:36.31
There's a garland of
12 stars on her head.
00:23:36.31\00:23:38.51
Highly symbolic.
00:23:38.51\00:23:40.22
>>DAVID: All of
them light bringing.
00:23:40.22\00:23:41.78
>>TY: Interesting.
00:23:41.78\00:23:43.39
>>DAVID: All of
them light bringing.
00:23:43.39\00:23:44.72
The sun is light, the moon
brings light, the stars give
00:23:44.72\00:23:46.29
light.
00:23:46.29\00:23:47.26
That's a Genesis 1 and 2 thing.
00:23:47.26\00:23:49.19
So, this woman, we haven't
yet identified her, but she will
00:23:49.19\00:23:51.66
bringing light into a world,
we just came out of the world
00:23:51.66\00:23:55.93
of Revelation 11,
that's a dark world, right?
00:23:55.93\00:24:00.04
The word of God is outlawed,
you know, that's a dark world
00:24:00.04\00:24:03.37
that sets up, hey, here's light.
00:24:03.37\00:24:06.54
Sun, moon, stars.
00:24:06.54\00:24:08.48
>>TY: So, break down the
symbols more specifically,
00:24:08.48\00:24:10.21
then, who or what is the woman
and she's pregnant with who or
00:24:10.21\00:24:15.85
what child?
00:24:15.85\00:24:17.02
>>DAVID: Well, in both the
Old and the New Testaments, we
00:24:17.02\00:24:18.85
find sufficient, ample
biblical data to let us know
00:24:18.85\00:24:23.43
that a woman
represents God's people.
00:24:23.43\00:24:26.56
So, we have Old Testament
passages where the scripture
00:24:26.56\00:24:30.70
says that God's people is
a woman, I have likened the
00:24:30.70\00:24:34.74
daughter of Zion to a
delicate and calmly woman.
00:24:34.74\00:24:37.44
And we have, you know,
Ezekiel, where I found you and
00:24:37.44\00:24:40.78
you were beautiful and I,
we have all of that, Ezekiel,
00:24:40.78\00:24:43.24
that sort of, 20,
23, 26, that section.
00:24:43.24\00:24:46.78
>>JEFFREY: In the New
Testament, it's Ephesians 5.
00:24:46.78\00:24:50.79
>>DAVID: That's right,
husbands love your wives
00:24:50.79\00:24:53.39
as Christ also loved the church.
00:24:53.39\00:24:54.99
And then we've got even
John, who writes a letter to the
00:24:54.99\00:24:57.56
elect lady, right?
00:24:57.56\00:24:59.86
He writes it to the
church, to the elect lady.
00:24:59.86\00:25:02.33
He's not writing a letter...
00:25:02.33\00:25:03.53
>>TY: And even in Revelation,
when we come to chapter 19,
00:25:03.53\00:25:06.33
the bride of Christ.
00:25:06.33\00:25:07.54
>>DAVID: So, the point here
is what we're dealing with is a
00:25:07.54\00:25:09.90
symbol, we've been
dealing with symbols all the way
00:25:09.90\00:25:11.91
through, of the people of God,
and this is a really great one
00:25:11.91\00:25:16.08
because this is innocent,
she's pure, she's pregnant,
00:25:16.08\00:25:19.98
she's bringing
light into the world.
00:25:19.98\00:25:21.98
So, here we have the people of
God at a certain, crucial time
00:25:21.98\00:25:24.85
in earth's history,
preparing to give birth.
00:25:24.85\00:25:28.32
Now, we're gonna see this
in a moment, but the child that
00:25:28.32\00:25:30.66
she's going to
bring forth is Jesus.
00:25:30.66\00:25:32.66
>>TY: This is a direct
reference to the very first
00:25:32.66\00:25:38.03
gospel promise and
prophecy in Genesis 3:15.
00:25:38.03\00:25:41.04
After humanity fell into sin,
God specifically spoke to the
00:25:41.04\00:25:47.94
serpent, the devil, who
had coocted the serpent as its
00:25:47.94\00:25:51.75
medium, God is speaking to the
devil, in the presence of Adam
00:25:51.75\00:25:56.48
and Eve, and he says to the
serpent, I will put enmity, or
00:25:56.48\00:26:00.96
hostility between you and
the woman and the woman, between
00:26:00.96\00:26:04.99
your offspring
and her offspring.
00:26:04.99\00:26:07.00
And the woman, who is at
enmity with you will give
00:26:07.00\00:26:13.10
birth to a child and that
child, that seed, singular,
00:26:13.10\00:26:17.91
that seed that is eventually
coming through the woman will
00:26:17.91\00:26:20.14
crush your head and
you will bruise his heel.
00:26:20.14\00:26:23.38
This is the first gospel
promise, prophecy, and it
00:26:23.38\00:26:26.41
tells us that there will
be two lines down through
00:26:26.41\00:26:30.49
history, a serpent
lineage and a woman lineage.
00:26:30.49\00:26:35.59
The serpent lineage and the
woman lineage, this isn't just
00:26:35.59\00:26:39.73
talking, this isn't
talking about genetics, it's not
00:26:39.73\00:26:42.93
talking about two ethnicities,
it's talking about principles.
00:26:42.93\00:26:46.50
There will be two theological
lineages, two moral lineages,
00:26:46.50\00:26:51.11
two lineages of principles
that will be at odds with one
00:26:51.11\00:26:55.98
another down
through human history.
00:26:55.98\00:26:58.21
>>JEFFREY: Enmity, yeah.
00:26:58.21\00:26:59.45
>>TY: Enmity, so the woman now
is about to give birth to that
00:26:59.45\00:27:03.85
child that Genesis 3:15
prophesied would eventually
00:27:03.85\00:27:06.59
come into the world.
00:27:06.59\00:27:07.82
>>DAVID: And we should say
that there's an intertextual
00:27:07.82\00:27:10.26
evidence that what
you've just said is true, i.e.
00:27:10.26\00:27:12.66
that this is referencing
Genesis 3:15, because right in
00:27:12.66\00:27:15.46
Revelation 12, verse 9, I know
we'll get there in a moment,
00:27:15.46\00:27:18.47
but it says, the great dragon
was cast out, that serpent
00:27:18.47\00:27:20.40
called the devil and Satan.
00:27:20.40\00:27:21.24
>>TY: That serpent of old.
00:27:21.24\00:27:23.44
>>DAVID: That serpent of
old, that's Genesis 3, that's
00:27:23.44\00:27:24.71
taking us right back
to the opening chapters.
00:27:24.71\00:27:26.74
>>JAMES: And so is the woman,
because when you look at the
00:27:26.74\00:27:28.34
woman, in Genesis chapter
3, Adam and Eve, the woman, in
00:27:28.34\00:27:33.35
Genesis 3 lost her clothing.
00:27:33.35\00:27:34.88
She lost her light, and
in Revelation chapter 12, the
00:27:34.88\00:27:37.92
woman is clothed with light.
00:27:37.92\00:27:39.25
>>TY: Interesting.
00:27:39.25\00:27:40.29
>>DAVID: She's told,
basically, that you will, in
00:27:40.29\00:27:43.59
child bearing, right, this
is post, something about the
00:27:43.59\00:27:47.03
birth of a child would
bring about this hostility, the
00:27:47.03\00:27:49.73
seed.
00:27:49.73\00:27:50.93
>>JAMES: And one thing that
I think is really significant
00:27:50.93\00:27:52.73
here is, you know, before
Adam and Eve fell, it says they
00:27:52.73\00:27:56.04
were naked and they were
not ashamed, and the reason they
00:27:56.04\00:27:59.44
were not ashamed is because
they were made in the image of
00:27:59.44\00:28:01.44
God and we're told in Psalm
102, verse 4, that God clothes
00:28:01.44\00:28:03.75
himself in light.
00:28:03.75\00:28:05.35
You know all these pictures
these artists make of Adam and
00:28:05.35\00:28:07.72
Eve in the
garden before the fall.
00:28:07.72\00:28:09.32
>>DAVID: And their hair
is falling just perfectly.
00:28:09.32\00:28:10.95
>>JAMES: Yeah, and
they're hiding behind a bush.
00:28:10.95\00:28:12.55
>>DAVID: The leaf is just
covering the bits and pieces.
00:28:12.55\00:28:14.32
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:28:14.32\00:28:15.42
>>JAMES: I've seen one
recently where Jesus is there
00:28:15.42\00:28:18.09
with them and he's clothed
in light, he's clothed in a robe
00:28:18.09\00:28:20.26
of light, but Adam and Eve
are naked, except they're hiding
00:28:20.26\00:28:22.70
behind, and I'm thinking, wait
a minute, we've missed this.
00:28:22.70\00:28:24.83
Adam and Eve were clothed
with light and that's why they
00:28:24.83\00:28:28.27
weren't ashamed.
00:28:28.27\00:28:30.01
And when they sinned, they
lost their robes of light and
00:28:30.01\00:28:31.14
then, they
realized, we're naked.
00:28:31.14\00:28:34.04
But the woman, in
Revelation, is clothed.
00:28:34.04\00:28:36.04
So, you've got the serpent,
you've got the woman, you've
00:28:36.04\00:28:38.71
got the light thing going on.
00:28:38.71\00:28:41.02
>>TY: Interesting.
00:28:41.02\00:28:42.18
>>DAVID: He dwells in light
so that no man can approach.
00:28:42.18\00:28:44.02
There's a lot of that.
00:28:44.02\00:28:45.15
>>TY: So, explicitly, the
woman, in Revelation 12:1-2,
00:28:45.15\00:28:49.56
is Israel.
00:28:49.56\00:28:51.03
It is the people of God,
it's the transition between the
00:28:51.03\00:28:57.73
two, however, because this
is, Israel is the church of the
00:28:57.73\00:29:03.14
Old Testament period that
is the lineage through which
00:29:03.14\00:29:05.51
Jesus has brought in the world
and this is the hinge between
00:29:05.51\00:29:11.21
ancient Israel, literal
Israel, and spiritual Israel,
00:29:11.21\00:29:16.35
because the church in the
New Testament is still called
00:29:16.35\00:29:18.25
Israel.
00:29:18.25\00:29:19.32
>>DAVID: I hate that
term spiritual Israel.
00:29:19.32\00:29:21.46
>>TY: How about...
00:29:21.46\00:29:23.66
>>DAVID: I just say Israel.
00:29:23.66\00:29:25.06
>>TY: That's, it's all Israel.
00:29:25.06\00:29:26.59
I like that.
00:29:26.59\00:29:27.76
>>DAVID: That's right, because
in the Old Testament, there
00:29:27.76\00:29:29.03
were people that were
Israelites in terms of being
00:29:29.03\00:29:30.43
descendants of Abraham, but
they were not God's faithful
00:29:30.43\00:29:32.70
people, and when we come to
the New Testament, there are
00:29:32.70\00:29:34.94
people that are of Israel
that are, you know, Paul speaks,
00:29:34.94\00:29:37.84
it's just Israel.
00:29:37.84\00:29:38.61
Right through...
00:29:38.61\00:29:40.51
>>JAMES: So, it's
Israel in prophecy.
00:29:40.51\00:29:42.84
We could say Revelation
12 is Israel in prophecy.
00:29:42.84\00:29:45.55
>>DAVID: 100%.
00:29:45.55\00:29:46.75
Which is part of the reason,
I think, why Stephen, and just
00:29:46.75\00:29:49.28
to quickly pan out, you
mentioned the church, it's
00:29:49.28\00:29:51.02
like the church.
00:29:51.02\00:29:52.22
Stephen, in Acts chapter 7,
says that, he says that Israel
00:29:52.22\00:29:55.06
was the church
in the wilderness.
00:29:55.06\00:29:57.36
Because the church is just
ecclesia, the ones that are
00:29:57.36\00:30:00.60
called out.
00:30:00.60\00:30:01.96
Jesus purposefully, with
great significance and with
00:30:01.96\00:30:05.80
pregnancy, ordains 12.
00:30:05.80\00:30:10.54
He knew what he was doing.
00:30:10.54\00:30:11.77
It wasn't 10, it
wasn't 8, it wasn't 11.
00:30:11.77\00:30:14.98
>>TY: He was reenacting.
00:30:14.98\00:30:16.01
>>DAVID: Absolutely.
00:30:16.01\00:30:17.01
>>JEFFREY: It's
Israel 2.0, basically.
00:30:17.01\00:30:20.62
It's a reenactment of...
00:30:20.62\00:30:22.52
>>DAVID: I'm okay with
that, I like that better than
00:30:22.52\00:30:23.69
spiritual Israel,
but it's just Israel.
00:30:23.69\00:30:24.99
>>JAMES: But here's the point.
00:30:24.99\00:30:26.72
>>DAVID: It was always God's
elect people that were, that
00:30:26.72\00:30:30.03
had the faith of Abraham.
00:30:30.03\00:30:32.63
This is Paul's whole point.
00:30:32.63\00:30:33.90
>>JEFFREY: It encompasses
the apostolic church.
00:30:33.90\00:30:35.63
>>TY: Which is Israel.
00:30:35.63\00:30:38.07
>>JAMES: We'll see that in the
text, because the woman is the
00:30:38.07\00:30:40.54
woman.
00:30:40.54\00:30:41.27
The woman stays the woman.
00:30:41.27\00:30:42.47
Okay, but here's the point,
we don't wanna miss this point.
00:30:42.47\00:30:44.27
Revelation 12, again,
is summarizing deception.
00:30:44.27\00:30:48.61
So, you have, right here,
we've alluded to the deception
00:30:48.61\00:30:51.31
in Genesis.
00:30:51.31\00:30:52.71
What was it that Satan did?
00:30:52.71\00:30:53.98
He came to this earth and
he basically misrepresented the
00:30:53.98\00:30:56.08
character of God.
00:30:56.08\00:30:57.65
He basically put God
forth as a withholder.
00:30:57.65\00:31:00.59
God was one who was wanting
to oppress you, control you,
00:31:00.59\00:31:03.19
withhold from you, keep the
fruit from you, keep you from
00:31:03.19\00:31:05.83
reaching a higher sphere.
00:31:05.83\00:31:08.30
So, that first outline,
because of the woman, the
00:31:08.30\00:31:11.33
serpent, the robe, the light,
is there in Revelation chapter
00:31:11.33\00:31:15.37
12, and then, in a brilliant
move of inspiration, of
00:31:15.37\00:31:20.68
course, John goes all the
way back to heaven and he starts
00:31:20.68\00:31:24.78
talking about this dragon in
heaven and this deception that
00:31:24.78\00:31:27.22
took place in heaven, where
he took his tail and of course,
00:31:27.22\00:31:30.42
in the Old Testament, Isaiah
9:15, I believe it says, the
00:31:30.42\00:31:34.26
prophet teaches
lies, he is the tail.
00:31:34.26\00:31:37.13
So, lies were told in
heaven about God and he took the
00:31:37.13\00:31:40.33
stars out of heaven and
cast them into the ground.
00:31:40.33\00:31:42.70
Now, the reason I'm bringing
this up is because, and I
00:31:42.70\00:31:44.33
don't wanna go too far ahead
here, we can go back and, but
00:31:44.33\00:31:47.57
the whole chapter here is
gonna conclude with the fact
00:31:47.57\00:31:53.07
that heaven is rejoicing,
but woe unto the earth, because
00:31:53.07\00:31:56.08
the devil's come unto you,
having great power, knowing
00:31:56.08\00:31:58.41
his time is short and he's
seeking to deceive the whole
00:31:58.41\00:32:00.88
world.
00:32:00.88\00:32:01.92
He deceived the angels
in heaven, number one, he
00:32:01.92\00:32:05.29
deceived the woman in the
wilderness, number two, and
00:32:05.29\00:32:07.82
now, he's out to
deceive the whole world.
00:32:07.82\00:32:09.49
It's all about deception in
relation to the character of
00:32:09.49\00:32:11.89
God.
00:32:11.89\00:32:12.73
>>DAVID: Who God is.
00:32:12.73\00:32:13.46
>>JAMES: Who God is.
00:32:13.46\00:32:14.50
So, the light that we're
talking about, David brought
00:32:14.50\00:32:15.66
it out, you've got the sun,
the moon, and the stars, the
00:32:15.66\00:32:17.47
light that's coming is not
just theological light, it's
00:32:17.47\00:32:20.54
not just the light of
academics, it's not just
00:32:20.54\00:32:22.64
doctrinal, yeah, it's
the light of the logic of the
00:32:22.64\00:32:25.57
glory of God.
00:32:25.57\00:32:26.51
It's the light of his character.
00:32:26.51\00:32:27.44
>>DAVID: Jesus is
the light that lights...
00:32:27.44\00:32:28.41
>>JAMES: Judge me.
00:32:28.41\00:32:29.48
Measure me.
00:32:29.48\00:32:30.41
Measure my
sacrifice, measure the temple.
00:32:30.41\00:32:32.28
>>JEFFREY:
She's pregnant, right?
00:32:32.28\00:32:33.95
She's about to
bring forth a child.
00:32:33.95\00:32:38.32
>>DAVID: But just as she's
about ready to do that, here
00:32:38.32\00:32:40.09
comes the third element,
'cause we got the woman, we
00:32:40.09\00:32:41.66
got the child.
00:32:41.66\00:32:43.02
>>TY: Verse 3 now.
00:32:43.02\00:32:44.13
>>DAVID: Dragon.
00:32:44.13\00:32:45.26
>>TY: Where'd we
get that red dragon?
00:32:45.26\00:32:48.33
>>DAVID: I have no
idea, but he's pretty awesome.
00:32:48.33\00:32:49.66
>>TY: That's an amazing
red dragon and that is exactly
00:32:49.66\00:32:52.17
what's described in,
well, not exactly, we don't know
00:32:52.17\00:32:55.30
exactly, but that looks
like a great red dragon.
00:32:55.30\00:32:58.74
>>DAVID: And he looks like
he's ready to devour something
00:32:58.74\00:33:01.68
or someone.
00:33:01.68\00:33:02.71
>>JAMES: There appeared
another wonder in heaven,
00:33:02.71\00:33:04.18
behold, a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten
00:33:04.18\00:33:06.58
horns and seven crowns
upon his heads and his tail drew
00:33:06.58\00:33:09.72
the third part of the stars
of heaven and cast them to the
00:33:09.72\00:33:12.25
earth, and the dragon stood
before the woman, which was
00:33:12.25\00:33:14.79
ready to be delivered, for
it devoured her child as soon as
00:33:14.79\00:33:18.09
it was born.
00:33:18.09\00:33:19.23
And she brought forth a
man child who was to rule all
00:33:19.23\00:33:21.00
nations with a rod of iron and
her child was caught up to God
00:33:21.00\00:33:24.17
and to his throne.
00:33:24.17\00:33:26.03
>>TY: This is amazing.
00:33:26.03\00:33:27.10
>>JEFFREY: That language
is, you run into it again in
00:33:27.10\00:33:29.27
chapter 19, don't you?
00:33:29.27\00:33:31.01
>>JAMES: Which language?
00:33:31.01\00:33:32.87
>>JEFFREY: The language about
the child ruling the nations
00:33:32.87\00:33:36.18
with a rod of iron, because
in chapter 19 of Revelation, you
00:33:36.18\00:33:39.95
have the same thing, you have...
00:33:39.95\00:33:41.38
>>DAVID: Clearly, it's Jesus.
00:33:41.38\00:33:42.72
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, you have
Christ, and in verse 15, he
00:33:42.72\00:33:45.39
will rule with a rod of iron,
so this is the child, the man
00:33:45.39\00:33:48.42
child, the
Messiah, this is Jesus.
00:33:48.42\00:33:49.92
>>DAVID: So, to answer the
question of who these things
00:33:49.92\00:33:53.93
are, we've done, the
text does this for us.
00:33:53.93\00:33:56.97
The woman is God's people,
the church, Israel, in that
00:33:56.97\00:34:01.87
transition period, the dragon
is that old serpent called the
00:34:01.87\00:34:04.11
devil and Satan,
and the child is Jesus.
00:34:04.11\00:34:06.84
>>TY: Right.
00:34:06.84\00:34:08.04
>>DAVID: So, if you just fill
that in and read through it,
00:34:08.04\00:34:09.04
it's pretty awesome.
00:34:09.04\00:34:11.48
>>JAMES: Yeah, because,
when Jesus was born, remember,
00:34:11.48\00:34:12.85
Herod, who was a vessel,
if you will, of Rome, Herod
00:34:12.85\00:34:16.48
tries to destroy Christ.
00:34:16.48\00:34:17.92
The wise men come, he's like,
oh, yeah, tell me all about
00:34:17.92\00:34:20.09
him, I'm gonna kill that baby,
and then, you know, 3 years
00:34:20.09\00:34:22.46
later, they don't show up, and
so, he sends his soldiers into
00:34:22.46\00:34:24.29
Bethlehem to destroy all
the children 3 years of age and
00:34:24.29\00:34:27.03
under.
00:34:27.03\00:34:28.23
>>TY: This is an interesting
point you're making because we
00:34:28.23\00:34:30.03
just said that the great
red dragon is Satan, the fallen
00:34:30.03\00:34:34.24
angel, but you just described
his actions here through the
00:34:34.24\00:34:39.17
Roman empire.
00:34:39.17\00:34:40.54
So, there's a sense in which
we understand from the text
00:34:40.54\00:34:44.31
that there is the fallen
angel, Lucifer, this is the
00:34:44.31\00:34:48.32
great red dragon in the
symbol's ultimate definition,
00:34:48.32\00:34:53.42
but the great red dragon, i.e.
00:34:53.42\00:34:56.42
Satan, works
through earthly powers.
00:34:56.42\00:35:00.70
>>JEFFREY: Structures, systems.
00:35:00.70\00:35:03.03
>>JAMES: That was brought
up in Revelation chapter 2,
00:35:03.03\00:35:04.57
remember, when we were talking
about the church of Smyrna,
00:35:04.57\00:35:06.74
fear none of those
things which you shall suffer,
00:35:06.74\00:35:09.00
behold, the devil shall
cast some of you into prison.
00:35:09.00\00:35:12.17
>>TY: Yeah, the devil,
it was the Roman empire.
00:35:12.17\00:35:17.88
>>JEFFREY: It was
through systems and powers.
00:35:17.88\00:35:20.02
>>DAVID: And we should say,
in fairness to, we mentioned the
00:35:20.02\00:35:22.15
historicist, preterist, all
of those schools of, it is true
00:35:22.15\00:35:26.99
that the Roman empire shows
up significantly as certain
00:35:26.99\00:35:30.83
points.
00:35:30.83\00:35:32.53
>>TY: So, preterism is
true as far as it is true.
00:35:32.53\00:35:35.90
>>DAVID: Exactly.
00:35:35.90\00:35:37.10
But, the problem is, is that
when we just try to confine it
00:35:37.10\00:35:39.93
expressly to the Roman empire,
'cause there's just too much
00:35:39.93\00:35:43.61
going on here, it's too
big, you've got this cosmic foe,
00:35:43.61\00:35:47.21
which is exactly where you
mentioned that it goes, James,
00:35:47.21\00:35:49.68
to 7, is it alright
if I just jump down to 7?
00:35:49.68\00:35:51.98
>>JEFFREY: Whoa,
you're gonna skip?
00:35:51.98\00:35:54.38
>>DAVID: I don't think I
skipped anything 'cause I
00:35:54.38\00:35:56.52
thought you read...
00:35:56.52\00:35:57.52
>>TY: We gotta look, though...
00:35:58.59\00:36:00.16
>>JEFFREY: Well, I was gonna
point out in verse 5 that the
00:36:00.16\00:36:02.56
child is born and then,
the text ends with him being
00:36:02.56\00:36:05.46
caught up to God and to his
throne, that encompasses the
00:36:05.46\00:36:08.06
entire earthly
presence of Christ.
00:36:08.06\00:36:10.53
>>TY: The whole Christ
event, it's shorthand there.
00:36:10.53\00:36:13.00
>>JEFFREY: What do you think
of the transition, before you
00:36:13.00\00:36:15.10
move to verse 7.
00:36:15.10\00:36:16.40
>>JAMES: It's key.
00:36:16.40\00:36:17.44
>>JEFFREY: The transition
between 5 and 6, I find
00:36:17.44\00:36:19.84
profound, because it's as if
Satan unleashed all the power
00:36:19.84\00:36:23.75
he had on earth, through Rome
and so forth to get this child
00:36:23.75\00:36:28.28
and the child, in essence,
slips out of his hands and
00:36:28.28\00:36:31.02
gets caught up to God and to
his throne, and the dragon is
00:36:31.02\00:36:35.32
down here, enraged, and with
Jesus out of his grasp, where
00:36:35.32\00:36:39.59
now does the dragon turn?.
00:36:39.59\00:36:41.46
>>DAVID: To those
that have faith in Jesus.
00:36:41.46\00:36:42.90
>>TY: But the brilliant part
about this, that I was gonna
00:36:42.90\00:36:46.60
make in verses 5 and 6 is
that, when it says that the
00:36:46.60\00:36:49.60
child was caught up to God
and his throne, that is death,
00:36:49.60\00:36:54.31
burial, resurrection,
ascension language.
00:36:54.31\00:36:57.28
That's shorthand for the
dragon stood before the woman
00:36:57.28\00:37:03.45
to devour her child as soon
as he was born, that happened in
00:37:03.45\00:37:06.55
the crucifixion.
00:37:06.55\00:37:07.72
He was, in fact, devoured
by the Roman empire, crucified
00:37:07.72\00:37:11.09
under a Roman cross.
00:37:11.09\00:37:12.39
>>DAVID: Put in a Roman tomb.
00:37:12.39\00:37:14.00
>>TY: Yeah, and the poetic
justice of the whole thing is
00:37:14.00\00:37:17.80
that what appears to be
defeat, he's the one on the
00:37:17.80\00:37:21.10
cross, crucified,
bloody, bruised, dying, and he's
00:37:21.10\00:37:25.87
caught up to the right
hand position of victory at the
00:37:25.87\00:37:29.54
throne of God, Jesus is
victorious by virtue of his
00:37:29.54\00:37:35.62
self-sacrificing
death at Calvary.
00:37:35.62\00:37:37.72
>>JEFFREY: So, Jesus
monopolizes the devil's
00:37:37.72\00:37:39.15
agenda, basically.
00:37:39.15\00:37:40.19
>>TY: That's right.
00:37:40.19\00:37:41.26
>>JEFFREY: The devil
stings him and it backfires.
00:37:41.26\00:37:43.89
>>TY: At Calvary, love and
selfishness stood face to face
00:37:43.89\00:37:50.43
in mortal combat
and love trumped evil.
00:37:50.43\00:37:54.70
Love gained the victory
over the devil's principles.
00:37:54.70\00:37:59.57
Jesus went to the cross and
all the voices around him were
00:37:59.57\00:38:04.71
saying if you really are
the Son of God, that is, if you
00:38:04.71\00:38:08.05
are God and you have power,
save yourself, save yourself,
00:38:08.05\00:38:12.02
save yourself.
00:38:12.02\00:38:13.79
The irony is that precisely
because he was the Son of God,
00:38:13.79\00:38:17.16
he would not save himself,
but rather save us at his own
00:38:17.16\00:38:20.60
expense.
00:38:20.60\00:38:21.46
>>JAMES: Amen.
00:38:21.46\00:38:22.36
>>TY: And that's
the beauty of the cross.
00:38:22.36\00:38:25.57
It conquers evil by truth and
love rather than resorting to
00:38:25.57\00:38:32.07
the methods of
deception and force.
00:38:32.07\00:38:34.94
>>DAVID: This takes us back
to two things I wanna say, the
00:38:34.94\00:38:37.08
first is that it takes us
back to Revelation 5, when the
00:38:37.08\00:38:39.41
throne room vision was
seen, the being, the symbol that
00:38:39.41\00:38:45.75
John saw sitting on the
throne, i.e., this is how God
00:38:45.75\00:38:48.96
governs, was a Lamb,
as if it had been slain.
00:38:48.96\00:38:53.63
So, crucifixion,
vulnerability, humility,
00:38:53.63\00:38:56.77
belongs to the way
that God rules the universe.
00:38:56.77\00:39:01.67
It's not just might, it's not
just power, it's not that, in
00:39:01.67\00:39:03.17
fact.
00:39:03.17\00:39:04.47
That's the first
thing I wanna say.
00:39:04.47\00:39:05.67
The second thing I wanna say
is that it's always struck me
00:39:05.67\00:39:07.08
as interesting that the word,
back in Genesis 3:15, is the
00:39:07.08\00:39:10.18
same word, bruised.
00:39:10.18\00:39:12.21
He will bruise your head
and you will bruise his heel.
00:39:12.21\00:39:15.28
I think this is interesting.
00:39:15.28\00:39:17.09
The means by
which, bruise and bruise.
00:39:17.09\00:39:20.36
You'll try to bruise,
but you'll get bruised.
00:39:20.36\00:39:21.86
The means by which you try
to inflict the death on Messiah
00:39:21.86\00:39:28.60
is the means by which the
death is inflicted on you.
00:39:28.60\00:39:31.63
It's like you throw a ball
really hard against the wall
00:39:31.63\00:39:34.37
and it hits you in the eye.
00:39:34.37\00:39:36.91
It's like, bam, I
was not expecting that.
00:39:36.91\00:39:38.11
>>JAMES: He that kills with
the sword must be killed with
00:39:38.11\00:39:39.87
the sword.
00:39:39.87\00:39:41.04
>>DAVID: That's exactly
right, and I love this idea here
00:39:41.04\00:39:42.68
that, I think the point you
were making, Ty, and we just,
00:39:42.68\00:39:45.58
our enthusiasm is just
carrying us away here, is that
00:39:45.58\00:39:48.22
he's about ready to pounce,
and before he knows it, he
00:39:48.22\00:39:51.32
actually does do the thing
he intended to do, and then, the
00:39:51.32\00:39:55.39
ball, come back and hits
him in the eye, kills him, you
00:39:55.39\00:39:58.29
know, and it's like, oh.
00:39:58.29\00:40:00.66
Well, that didn't
work like I thought.
00:40:00.66\00:40:03.16
>>TY: What am I gonna do now?
00:40:03.16\00:40:04.40
>>DAVID: Because, if you think
about it, I preached a sermon
00:40:04.40\00:40:05.90
recently where I said,
the cross is a strange throne.
00:40:05.90\00:40:09.74
But in a really significant
sense, the cross becomes the
00:40:09.74\00:40:15.01
throne of God, because it's
a Lamb as if it had been slain.
00:40:15.01\00:40:18.38
Where was he slain?
00:40:18.38\00:40:19.71
He was slain on a Roman
instrument of torture, of
00:40:19.71\00:40:21.25
power, and of strength, and
going back to something we've
00:40:21.25\00:40:23.62
mentioned before, you
know, God could've wrapped this
00:40:23.62\00:40:25.25
whole conflict up with just
a single flex, as it were, of
00:40:25.25\00:40:28.69
his muscles.
00:40:28.69\00:40:30.06
Just to use a simple analogy.
00:40:30.06\00:40:31.76
God is winning this war
in a very different way.
00:40:31.76\00:40:35.23
Not with might, not with
power, not with strength, not
00:40:35.23\00:40:38.93
with violence.
00:40:38.93\00:40:40.14
He's not out monstering the
monsters, as Ty said early on,
00:40:40.14\00:40:43.07
he is making himself
vulnerable, he's making
00:40:43.07\00:40:46.44
himself available, he is.
00:40:46.44\00:40:48.34
>>JAMES: And that's why
Revelation says he's the Lamb
00:40:48.34\00:40:49.58
slain from the
foundation of the world.
00:40:49.58\00:40:50.95
>>TY: He's always been this way.
00:40:50.95\00:40:52.25
>>JAMES: Not only has he
always been this way, but this
00:40:52.25\00:40:54.25
is the strategy he inculcated
from the beginning and this,
00:40:54.25\00:40:57.19
he has experienced the
humiliation all the way
00:40:57.19\00:41:01.26
through, all of the
accusations, all of the fault
00:41:01.26\00:41:03.16
finding, all of the finger
pointing at God from the very
00:41:03.16\00:41:05.59
beginning.
00:41:05.59\00:41:06.70
Even with those of us who
believed, he's born all of
00:41:06.70\00:41:09.40
that on his heart.
00:41:09.40\00:41:10.73
He's continued to bear
that from the very beginning.
00:41:10.73\00:41:12.57
So, this makes sense of that
verse, it makes sense of what
00:41:12.57\00:41:16.40
it means of what God has
gone through in that context.
00:41:16.40\00:41:19.44
>>TY: The poetic irony of
Jesus hanging on the cross
00:41:19.44\00:41:23.88
with the inscription King
of the Jews, just amazing that
00:41:23.88\00:41:30.25
the cross is God enthroned
in a way that nobody would've
00:41:30.25\00:41:36.06
ever expected for
God to be enthroned.
00:41:36.06\00:41:38.59
>>JEFFREY: That thing with
backfiring, it backfired on
00:41:38.59\00:41:40.40
what the devil was doing
to Jesus, it's the same thing
00:41:40.40\00:41:42.53
with the church, isn't it?
00:41:42.53\00:41:43.73
So, it backfires on the devil,
he unleashes persecution on
00:41:43.73\00:41:46.43
the church, and the more
he persecutes the church, it
00:41:46.43\00:41:49.37
turns out to
strengthen the church.
00:41:49.37\00:41:51.47
>>TY: The blood of martyrs is,
see, we have to take a break,
00:41:51.47\00:41:54.98
'cause...
00:41:54.98\00:41:56.11
>>DAVID: Can I just say
this quick quotation, one of my
00:41:56.11\00:41:57.85
favorite, favorite quotations,
Bruce Shelley, the late Bruce
00:41:57.85\00:42:00.62
Shelley, church historian,
said, Christianity is the only
00:42:00.62\00:42:04.85
major world religion to
have as its central event the
00:42:04.85\00:42:10.63
humiliation of its God.
00:42:10.63\00:42:13.23
>>TY: That's a good point
to close on, we'll come right
00:42:13.23\00:42:16.43
back on that.
00:42:16.43\00:42:18.00
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[Music]
00:43:19.86\00:43:25.60
>>TY: My, oh, my, Revelation
chapter 12 is so rich.
00:43:25.60\00:43:28.77
We've only gotten
through about verse 5.
00:43:28.77\00:43:31.94
>>DAVID: And
we're racing through it.
00:43:31.94\00:43:33.98
>>TY: We're racing, but we've
been looping because we were
00:43:33.98\00:43:35.78
jumping ahead to verses 7.
00:43:35.78\00:43:37.88
>>DAVID: Did
you say we're loopy?
00:43:37.88\00:43:39.01
>>TY: Looping, we were
looping, you are a little
00:43:39.01\00:43:41.42
loopy, but we've been looping
back and forth throughout the
00:43:41.42\00:43:45.82
chapter, but what's going
on in verse 6, James, because
00:43:45.82\00:43:50.36
this is amazing, the woman
is mentioned in verse 1, but the
00:43:50.36\00:43:53.43
woman is
mentioned again in verse 6.
00:43:53.43\00:43:55.33
>>JAMES: Well, in verse 1, we
know, we've already identified
00:43:55.33\00:43:57.50
the woman, in verse 1, is
the church that bore the man
00:43:57.50\00:44:01.20
child, which was Christ,
so, we see this as the Jewish
00:44:01.20\00:44:04.31
church.
00:44:04.31\00:44:05.47
We see this as the church
in Christ's day, apostolic age,
00:44:05.47\00:44:06.91
we've started our fourth cycle.
00:44:06.91\00:44:08.48
As we go through this history,
we realize that by the time
00:44:08.48\00:44:11.35
Christ is caught up, he's
established another church.
00:44:11.35\00:44:15.48
The Jews have rejected him,
they've crucified him, along
00:44:15.48\00:44:17.79
with the Romans.
00:44:17.79\00:44:18.92
>>DAVID: Not all
Jews, we should say.
00:44:18.92\00:44:20.22
>>JAMES: Right, the Jewish
nation, the leadership, okay,
00:44:20.22\00:44:22.72
good clarification, and so,
he's chosen his apostles, one
00:44:22.72\00:44:26.49
of them, of course, has been
replaced, or is in the process
00:44:26.49\00:44:29.73
of being replaced by Matthias,
so he's chosen and ordained 12
00:44:29.73\00:44:33.80
to start what we understand
to be the Christian church.
00:44:33.80\00:44:36.04
Now, when you look at the
woman here, giving birth to
00:44:36.04\00:44:38.74
the child, Christ himself,
in verse 1, and then you go down
00:44:38.74\00:44:42.31
to verse 6, all of a
sudden, you've got this woman
00:44:42.31\00:44:44.18
transitioning from the
literal Jewish era into this
00:44:44.18\00:44:50.65
wilderness for
1260 days, it says.
00:44:50.65\00:44:53.19
The woman fled into the
wilderness, where she had a
00:44:53.19\00:44:55.22
place prepared of God, that
they should feed her, they're
00:44:55.22\00:44:57.19
1,200 and 3 score days.
00:44:57.19\00:44:59.79
>>TY: That's verse 6.
00:44:59.79\00:45:00.73
>>JAMES: That's verse 6.
00:45:00.73\00:45:01.46
>>TY: Okay.
00:45:01.46\00:45:02.63
>>JAMES: So, this woman is
the church, she's already been
00:45:02.63\00:45:04.40
identified that way, the
previous woman is the church,
00:45:04.40\00:45:07.30
she's already been
identified that way.
00:45:07.30\00:45:08.80
History tells us that a
transition took place after
00:45:08.80\00:45:11.74
the death of Christ, from the
Jewish leadership, the Jewish
00:45:11.74\00:45:15.08
nation, to this Christian
church to the apostles who
00:45:15.08\00:45:19.21
started, of course,
this new era, which we call
00:45:19.21\00:45:22.35
Christianity.
00:45:22.35\00:45:23.55
>>TY: Which, from a biblical
perspective is a continuation
00:45:23.55\00:45:24.59
of Israel.
00:45:24.59\00:45:25.52
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:45:25.52\00:45:26.49
That's the point that
this chapter's telling.
00:45:26.49\00:45:30.23
>>TY: Something I just learned
recently, that blew my mind,
00:45:30.23\00:45:33.50
and we don't have time to
look at this, but I recently
00:45:33.50\00:45:40.07
discovered, learned from
scripture, that it was never
00:45:40.07\00:45:43.20
God's intention and Moses
never articulated that the
00:45:43.20\00:45:48.14
Jewish nation was
to be a pure bloodline.
00:45:48.14\00:45:51.51
It was an open invitation.
00:45:51.51\00:45:52.91
They were called out to go in.
00:45:52.91\00:45:54.62
Israel was a city on a hill,
a light on a hill and they had
00:45:54.62\00:46:00.12
an open immigration policy.
00:46:00.12\00:46:02.49
The whole point was to pull
people in, Israel was supposed
00:46:02.49\00:46:06.26
to fill the whole earth.
00:46:06.26\00:46:07.76
So, it wasn't, Israel is
not a strict ethnic idea in
00:46:07.76\00:46:12.73
scripture, Israel is a
spiritual, moral, theological
00:46:12.73\00:46:17.94
idea.
00:46:17.94\00:46:19.17
It deals with belief systems,
so that's why we can say that
00:46:19.17\00:46:23.35
Israel is a
continuation, it's a continuum.
00:46:23.35\00:46:26.75
>>JEFFREY: And that's
made explicit with the New
00:46:26.75\00:46:28.45
Testament church, where now,
ethnicity goes out the window.
00:46:28.45\00:46:31.65
>>TY: Paul just straight-up
says, if you are Christ, you
00:46:31.65\00:46:35.32
are Abraham's seed.
00:46:35.32\00:46:37.19
>>JEFFREY: And you
inherit the promises of Abraham.
00:46:37.19\00:46:39.56
>>TY: He's not saying, you
know, wink, nod spiritually or
00:46:39.56\00:46:43.20
symbolically, no, you
are Israel, you are Israel.
00:46:43.20\00:46:46.27
>>JAMES: And that's what
these verses are baring out.
00:46:46.27\00:46:49.74
The woman in verse 1 and
the woman in verse 6 is the same
00:46:49.74\00:46:52.07
entity, but we know,
historically, Jewish church,
00:46:52.07\00:46:54.78
Christian church.
00:46:54.78\00:46:55.91
>>JEFFREY: But then it
goes, fast-forward, there's that
00:46:55.91\00:46:57.68
timeframe in
verse 6, 1,260 days.
00:46:57.68\00:47:01.62
And that's not the
first time we run into that.
00:47:01.62\00:47:04.35
We flew through it in chapter
11, but we run into it again
00:47:04.35\00:47:08.66
in chapter 11,
what are you gonna say?
00:47:08.66\00:47:10.46
>>DAVID: I just, I'm just so
sorry, can you hit pause for a
00:47:10.46\00:47:12.09
second?
00:47:12.09\00:47:12.96
>>JEFFREY: Pause.
00:47:12.96\00:47:14.00
>>DAVID: Okay, I think
this is the coolest thing.
00:47:14.00\00:47:15.10
The first time the word
law occurs, right, law, in the
00:47:15.10\00:47:18.80
book of Exodus, so, we have
all this talk about law, law,
00:47:18.80\00:47:21.27
law, law, which, of course,
is the writings of Moses, it's
00:47:21.27\00:47:25.31
the law of God,
it's all of that.
00:47:25.31\00:47:27.81
The first time it occurs,
check this out, Exodus 12,
00:47:27.81\00:47:32.25
verse 49, you ready for this?
00:47:32.25\00:47:35.72
This is the whole centerpiece
of what makes a Jew a Jew,
00:47:35.72\00:47:40.19
what makes a descendant
of Abraham a descendant of
00:47:40.19\00:47:42.66
Abraham, right, in the
post-Exodus era, check this
00:47:42.66\00:47:46.23
out.
00:47:46.23\00:47:47.03
>>TY: Twelve what?
00:47:47.03\00:47:48.10
>>DAVID: 49.
00:47:48.10\00:47:49.16
>>TY: 12:49, I'm there.
00:47:49.16\00:47:51.17
>>DAVID: One law shall be
for the native born and for the
00:47:51.17\00:47:56.71
stranger who dwells among you.
00:47:56.71\00:47:58.81
>>TY: Whoa, that's exactly.
00:47:58.81\00:48:00.58
>>DAVID: That's the point.
00:48:00.58\00:48:01.78
In other words, hey, you
guys that are ethnic, you're the
00:48:01.78\00:48:03.45
native born, these guys can
travel with you and you will
00:48:03.45\00:48:06.05
live by the same law.
00:48:06.05\00:48:08.15
There's no differentiation here.
00:48:08.15\00:48:09.58
These are your people.
00:48:09.58\00:48:11.85
It's a moral.
00:48:11.85\00:48:13.32
>>JEFFREY: Well, you can word
it, it's not ethnic, it's how
00:48:13.32\00:48:17.69
you relate to God is what
makes you Israel or makes you
00:48:17.69\00:48:21.30
not Israel.
00:48:21.30\00:48:22.50
>>DAVID: And I just love the
fact, that's the first time, I
00:48:22.50\00:48:23.70
just double checked it here,
father-in-law does occur twice
00:48:23.70\00:48:26.23
in Exodus 3, Jethro, your
father-in-law, law, but when
00:48:26.23\00:48:29.14
it comes time for Moses to
start, okay, God was saying
00:48:29.14\00:48:31.74
all about the law.
00:48:31.74\00:48:32.91
>>TY: The law is for everyone.
00:48:32.91\00:48:34.14
>>DAVID: He's like,
hey, there's just one law.
00:48:34.14\00:48:36.18
>>TY: There's not only
one law, there's one Israel.
00:48:36.18\00:48:39.01
There's one Israel.
00:48:39.01\00:48:40.88
There's one people and
everybody's invited in, it was
00:48:40.88\00:48:43.72
never supposed to be an
elite club, an elite group, a
00:48:43.72\00:48:47.86
segregated people,
separate from everybody else.
00:48:47.86\00:48:50.73
It was always supposed to
be, I'm calling you out and I'm
00:48:50.73\00:48:55.56
ordaining you as a priesthood,
a mediator channel to take
00:48:55.56\00:49:00.37
what I'm teaching you to
the whole world, to the whole
00:49:00.37\00:49:04.17
world.
00:49:04.17\00:49:05.34
>>JAMES: Even in the
chronology of Jesus bares that
00:49:05.34\00:49:06.91
out.
00:49:06.91\00:49:07.81
'Cause you gotta
include his chronology.
00:49:07.81\00:49:09.91
Ruth, for example, and Mobius.
00:49:09.91\00:49:11.45
>>DAVID: Check this
out, I just preached on this.
00:49:11.45\00:49:13.25
So, there are four women that
are mentioned in the genealogy
00:49:13.25\00:49:16.12
of Jesus, all in Matthew,
four women that are mentioned.
00:49:16.12\00:49:18.79
Ruth is mentioned,
Rahab is mentioned.
00:49:18.79\00:49:20.76
All of them, the commonality
that they have, you know what
00:49:20.76\00:49:23.36
the commonality is?
00:49:23.36\00:49:24.29
>>TY: They're all Gentiles.
00:49:24.29\00:49:25.53
>>DAVID: They're all Gentiles.
00:49:25.53\00:49:26.70
Which is remarkable because,
first of all, it was unusual
00:49:26.70\00:49:30.53
for a woman to have been
recorded in the genealogy at
00:49:30.53\00:49:32.87
all.
00:49:32.87\00:49:34.00
So, the fact that four are
recorded, and you think, oh,
00:49:34.00\00:49:36.87
that's interesting,
four women, this is like an
00:49:36.87\00:49:38.67
egalitarian thing.
00:49:38.67\00:49:39.91
That's not the point
that Matthew was making.
00:49:39.91\00:49:41.61
The primary commonality
that those four women have, and
00:49:41.61\00:49:44.78
he's clearly doing
this, he's doing it with great
00:49:44.78\00:49:46.78
intentionality, it's not
just that they're feminine, that
00:49:46.78\00:49:49.52
they share a gender,
they're all Gentiles.
00:49:49.52\00:49:51.89
I just think this is so awesome.
00:49:51.89\00:49:55.06
>>TY: God was always
inclusive, he was always
00:49:55.06\00:49:58.89
saying, take this viral, let's
go global with this, I'm only
00:49:58.89\00:50:03.10
calling you out, I'm only
calling you out to send you
00:50:03.10\00:50:06.43
in, I'm not calling
you out to keep you out.
00:50:06.43\00:50:08.87
We're to be in the
world, but not of the world.
00:50:08.87\00:50:13.61
It's incredible.
00:50:13.61\00:50:14.88
>>JEFFREY: Going viral
and going global was, it's
00:50:14.88\00:50:16.88
intrinsic.
00:50:16.88\00:50:19.11
Genesis 12.
00:50:19.11\00:50:20.28
The viewer might say, no,
they were promised a nation, a
00:50:20.28\00:50:24.22
nation, a specific identity,
yes, but then, it says in
00:50:24.22\00:50:28.99
verse 3 that, in you all the
families of the earth shall be
00:50:28.99\00:50:33.16
blessed.
00:50:33.16\00:50:34.36
So, there is yes, a nation,
but the nation, the formation
00:50:34.36\00:50:37.13
of the nation is just
to facilitate going global.
00:50:37.13\00:50:40.77
>>TY: I have to comment
on this from another angle, I
00:50:40.77\00:50:43.44
remember the first time, I
remember the first time, you
00:50:43.44\00:50:48.01
gotta be quick, okay, I
remember the first time that I
00:50:48.01\00:50:51.65
was reading through Isaiah
and discovered, in chapter 49,
00:50:51.65\00:50:57.09
that the Messiah that is
prophesied of is specifically
00:50:57.09\00:51:01.36
said to be the Messiah,
Savior, Redeemer not only of
00:51:01.36\00:51:05.76
Israel but of the peoples of all
the coastlands and islands and
00:51:05.76\00:51:09.96
specifically the
people of Senem, China.
00:51:09.96\00:51:13.03
>>JAMES: Really?
00:51:13.03\00:51:14.37
>>TY: Yes.
00:51:14.37\00:51:15.57
So, God has always intended
for the message of the gospel
00:51:15.57\00:51:22.94
to be taken to all the world
and for every person for every
00:51:22.94\00:51:25.85
nation to be incorporated into
Israel and that bares out in
00:51:25.85\00:51:30.02
Revelation chapter 7, which we
didn't spend a lot of time on,
00:51:30.02\00:51:32.75
we didn't spend any time on
it, but the final, the final
00:51:32.75\00:51:36.52
manifestation of God's people,
every single person who is
00:51:36.52\00:51:41.63
ultimately saved is a part
of Israel, the 12 tribes, the
00:51:41.63\00:51:47.60
144,000, and they're called
the 12 tribes, they're called
00:51:47.60\00:51:51.24
the 144,000, and then, they're
called, every nation, kindred,
00:51:51.24\00:51:55.38
tongue, and people.
00:51:55.38\00:51:56.54
So, every nation
composes Israel in the end.
00:51:56.54\00:51:59.85
>>DAVID: That's why I said in
the session before and before.
00:51:59.85\00:52:01.92
I just don't like
that spiritual Israel thing
00:52:01.92\00:52:03.92
because, to me, it introduces
a demarcation, them and, no,
00:52:03.92\00:52:09.36
the point right through,
and it begins in Genesis 12, as
00:52:09.36\00:52:13.29
you said, all the
families of the earth.
00:52:13.29\00:52:16.40
Incidentally, Peter quotes
that very text in Acts chapter
00:52:16.40\00:52:20.24
3, outpouring of the Holy
Spirit, all of these Jews that
00:52:20.24\00:52:23.84
have travelled there to here,
or actually, they didn't come
00:52:23.84\00:52:26.68
to here, but for the pilgrim
feast, they're hearing the
00:52:26.68\00:52:28.91
preaching, that's Genesis,
outpouring of the spirit of
00:52:28.91\00:52:31.08
the Pentecost in Acts 2,
Acts 3, the sky's healed,
00:52:31.08\00:52:33.72
restoration's taking
place, communion's taking place,
00:52:33.72\00:52:36.28
unity's taking place,
and then, Peter says, in his
00:52:36.28\00:52:39.35
preaching, look, you are
the sons of the prophets and of
00:52:39.35\00:52:42.86
the covenant that God made
with our fathers, saying to
00:52:42.86\00:52:45.49
Abraham, comma, and in your
seed shall all the families of
00:52:45.49\00:52:49.50
the earth be blessed.
00:52:49.50\00:52:51.70
In other words...
00:52:51.70\00:52:53.00
>>JEFFREY: So, Jesus came
to ratify that original global,
00:52:53.00\00:52:55.94
viral vision.
00:52:55.94\00:52:57.37
>>DAVID: And the early
church understood that.
00:52:57.37\00:52:59.47
They got it, they got it.
00:52:59.47\00:53:01.44
>>TY: It took a lot to
get it, but they did get it.
00:53:01.44\00:53:03.58
>>DAVID: It did take a while
to get it and Peter didn't get
00:53:03.58\00:53:05.45
it all at once, it took him
a little bit, but they got it.
00:53:05.45\00:53:08.42
>>JEFFREY: So, this whole
gospel going to the Gentiles,
00:53:08.42\00:53:09.75
the gospel...
00:53:09.75\00:53:10.69
>>TY: Always
going to the Gentiles.
00:53:10.69\00:53:12.45
>>DAVID: And you see this, I'm
so sorry, James, I just gotta
00:53:12.45\00:53:15.32
chime in.
00:53:15.32\00:53:16.22
I'm sorry.
00:53:16.22\00:53:17.19
>>JAMES: This is super.
00:53:17.19\00:53:18.36
>>DAVID: When we get to
the New Testament, we see Jesus
00:53:18.36\00:53:21.60
again and again and again not
respecting the prejudices, the
00:53:21.60\00:53:26.40
demarcation that had been
established by first century
00:53:26.40\00:53:29.20
Judaism.
00:53:29.20\00:53:30.41
A Roman centurion, I've not
seen faith like this in all of
00:53:30.41\00:53:32.91
Israel.
00:53:32.91\00:53:33.74
What?
00:53:33.74\00:53:34.91
You're speaking like that
about a Gentile who's a Roman
00:53:34.91\00:53:35.84
who's a soldier
who's a leader of soldiers?
00:53:35.84\00:53:37.85
Scandalous.
00:53:37.85\00:53:38.81
Samaritan woman at the well.
00:53:38.81\00:53:40.35
I that speak
unto you, Cornelius.
00:53:40.35\00:53:42.28
I'm saying in the life of
Jesus, even, the Syrophanician
00:53:42.28\00:53:45.79
woman.
00:53:45.79\00:53:46.72
Touching lepers.
00:53:46.72\00:53:47.96
Like, you never get a sense
at all in the gospels that Jesus
00:53:47.96\00:53:51.79
was worried about
social contamination.
00:53:51.79\00:53:55.06
With Gentiles, with
blood, or ethnic, with lepers.
00:53:55.06\00:53:58.60
These are his
people, these are his people.
00:53:58.60\00:54:03.04
>>JEFFREY: He went out of his
way to sort of flaunt all that
00:54:03.04\00:54:04.67
stuff.
00:54:04.67\00:54:05.87
>>DAVID: Of course he did.
00:54:05.87\00:54:07.04
>>JAMES: I was just saying,
that's why Matthew was very
00:54:07.04\00:54:09.71
deliberate, Tamar, Rahab,
Ruth, she who had been the
00:54:09.71\00:54:15.45
wife of Urias, the Hittite,
and what he's doing here is
00:54:15.45\00:54:20.12
he's coming to a grand
conclusion in verse 21, she
00:54:20.12\00:54:22.72
shall bring forth a child
and thou shalt call his name
00:54:22.72\00:54:25.49
Jesus, for he shall save
his people from their sins.
00:54:25.49\00:54:28.80
The point is, here are Jesus's
people, here they are, in the
00:54:28.80\00:54:32.63
lineage, in the lineage,
they're women and they're
00:54:32.63\00:54:35.24
people from other nations
and these are the people Jesus
00:54:35.24\00:54:38.37
came to save, so Matthew's
very deliberate about putting
00:54:38.37\00:54:40.74
this in the genealogy so
that we can understand the big
00:54:40.74\00:54:43.91
picture and that plays into
this woman and the identity of
00:54:43.91\00:54:46.98
this woman in verse 6.
00:54:46.98\00:54:48.42
>>DAVID: Which is why
your point is such a great one.
00:54:48.42\00:54:50.09
In Revelation 12:1, is it 12:1?
00:54:50.09\00:54:52.72
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:54:52.72\00:54:53.89
>>DAVID: And 2, the woman
that's bringing forth, that's
00:54:53.89\00:54:55.16
the people of God.
00:54:55.16\00:54:56.42
In Revelation 12:6, the
woman is fleeing into the
00:54:56.42\00:54:58.83
wilderness.
00:54:58.83\00:54:59.66
That's the people of God.
00:54:59.66\00:55:00.93
In other words, some people
say, well, no, that's Israel,
00:55:00.93\00:55:03.53
and this is the church,
and introduce this unnecessary,
00:55:03.53\00:55:06.20
artificial distinction
that the apostles would not have
00:55:06.20\00:55:08.74
recognized.
00:55:08.74\00:55:09.97
Jesus himself not only elected
12, chose 12, he said in Luke
00:55:09.97\00:55:13.98
chapter 12, verse 32, fear
not little flock, for it is your
00:55:13.98\00:55:19.25
Father's good pleasure
to give to you the kingdom.
00:55:19.25\00:55:21.85
He knew that this was
the continuation of God's
00:55:21.85\00:55:24.02
intention for Israel all along.
00:55:24.02\00:55:27.19
The gospel's
gonna go to the world.
00:55:27.19\00:55:28.76
>>JAMES: And Jesus was the
ultimate fulfillment of all of
00:55:28.76\00:55:31.16
the covenant
promises and he was a Jew.
00:55:31.16\00:55:33.43
And we are followers of him.
00:55:33.43\00:55:34.73
So, you can't make that...
00:55:34.73\00:55:36.46
>>JEFFREY: Hear ye, oh,
Israel, and he goes into
00:55:36.46\00:55:39.23
commandments.
00:55:39.23\00:55:40.64
>>TY: Man, we're
just, this is amazing.
00:55:40.64\00:55:42.47
I thought for sure that we
were gonna get through more of
00:55:42.47\00:55:44.37
chapter 12, we didn't, but
that's okay, because the things
00:55:44.37\00:55:48.51
that are coming to the surface
here are just so vital and
00:55:48.51\00:55:52.88
important for us to understand.
00:55:52.88\00:55:55.22
We've seen, very clearly, just
through verses 1-6, that God,
00:55:55.22\00:56:00.92
in Christ, has done and is
doing something remarkable in
00:56:00.92\00:56:05.46
the world, reaching out to,
embracing, and taking in the
00:56:05.46\00:56:09.76
whole world with his
Messianic, covenant love, for
00:56:09.76\00:56:15.34
the whole human race, but we
gotta get through this chapter
00:56:15.34\00:56:18.67
next session.
00:56:18.67\00:56:20.01
>>JAMES: Mhm.
00:56:20.01\00:56:20.81
And we will.
00:56:20.81\00:56:21.78
[Music]
00:56:21.78\00:56:24.85
And we will.
00:56:24.85\00:56:24.88